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Anyone else into this sort of stuff......

Bands like Slint, Mogwai, Godspeed You Black Emperor, Explosions in the Sky, Mono

I like Mogwai and Godspeed. never heard of the other three.

I like Mogwai, Godspeed are excellent. Explosions in the Sky aren't all that, though I can listen to them if need be.

The only Godspeed clones (because they all essentially are) I can stand are Esmerine.

-AC

Mono are a japanese band

Your point?

-AC

Originally posted by eggmayo
I like Mogwai and Godspeed. never heard of the other three.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Your point?

-AC

It was in reply to this, a little bit of info about the band.

Whats your problem ?

I adore Godspeed and Mogwai, haven't heard a lot from the others.

Such a ricidulous label is post-rock.

GYBE are instrumental rock. Not sure why it's 'after' rock.

Explosions in the Sky are a cheap knock-off.

FFS, *ridiculous*.

I don't mind Mogwai at times, but it's a bit hit and miss.

Its post rock as it takes the ideas of rock music and deconstructs them and then reconstructs them, using certain musical ideas and devices. For example it may take a piece of music that could be considered an intro and they would stretch it out over an entire song, its post modern and I think thats where the name originates from. It takes the cliches of rock and roll and subverts them. Its an intelligent evolution of the genre and i dont think instrumental rock encompasses what these bands are trying to do.

It doesn't do all that. It's instrumental rock, that's all.

What people like yourself (not saying you are specifically trying to do this) are trying to do with these labels is make themselves sound like they know what they're talking about.

GYBE! are instrumental rock, that's all. Nothing 'After' about them.

-AC

is it:
Godspeed you! Black Emperor
or:
Godspeed you black emperor!

because they get labeled as either or as far as i can tell.

doesn't bother me much, but wanna ask anyway.

either way, i enjoy GYBE, Mogwai and EITS... but they definately have to be listened to at the right times

Both, really. I tend to use the latter, but you can use either.

-AC

GY!BE was the first way i saw it put, so i tend to use that version.
plus i like that way for some reason

Originally posted by papabeard
Its post rock as it takes the ideas of rock music and deconstructs them and then reconstructs them, using certain musical ideas and devices. For example it may take a piece of music that could be considered an intro and they would stretch it out over an entire song, its post modern and I think thats where the name originates from. It takes the cliches of rock and roll and subverts them. Its an intelligent evolution of the genre and i dont think instrumental rock encompasses what these bands are trying to do.

Neither does 'post-rock'. The name can't originate from post-modern, because a) it's not; and b) it just shares a prefix, which means 'after'.

It could be argued that many bands use the techniques you just mentioned, and they don't fit into that genre, whatever it might be.


Re: GYBE- they changed the placing of the '!' once, although I don't know why.

^
Of course its post-modern.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=post-modern

Originally posted by papabeard
Anyone else into this sort of stuff......

Bands like Slint, Mogwai, Godspeed You Black Emperor, Explosions in the Sky, Mono not really heard of the stuff.

Post-rock is a fake label because how can there be anything after it? It's always in current existance.

It's rock, not post-rock. Just instrumental rock. Post means after. So for example, when anyone says post-grunge, they're referring to any music after grunge. Including pop.

Hence why labellers are stupid.

-AC

Originally posted by papabeard
^
Of course its post-modern.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=post-modern

The term doesn't apply here. You could argue post-modern elements, but you could do the same of any musical genre that succeeds another.

It's just lazy pigeonholing.

Imagine if rock had originally been called post-blues.

This would be post-post blues.

That could go even further obviously, but it's a silly trend to start.

For you to discount that this is a postmodern style of music is just ridiculous and pedantic, clearly you dont understand the concept of post-modernism.

Postmodern does not singularly refer to music that comes after other music, did you read the definition. It is about consciously mixing up certain elements and devices established by prior generations of musicians.

But things like the Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin were most definitely post modern in relation to their time in history, they took the basic ideas of the blues and built upon them,you cannot say that Blind Lemon Jefferson sounds the same as Black Dog or When the Levee Breaks, but they were most definitely influenced by Jefferson. They were not labeled as Post Rock at the time as theories of Post modernism arose after this period.

And almost every art form cannot avoid post modernism it is the very basis of artistic evolution

I'd not say he doesn't understand post-modernism, just a thought. Just a thought. He does, trust me there. He's not one to be duelling terminology with.

You are sitting there claiming that everything is post-modern based on the fact that it came after something, and you call him pedantic?

By calling Godspeed You Black Emperor! post-rock just because they develop ideas of what might already exists, is stupid. They're instrumental rock.

The crux of this debate was you calling Godspeed post-rock. They're not, they're instrumental rock.

Not every artform is post something. The very fact that you call Zeppelin and The Yardbirds post-modern then go and call Godspeed and whoever succeeds them as post-modern IS lazy pigeonholing because they're completely different.

As Vic said, it's a silly trend to start.

-AC

Do we really need more genres

Originally posted by papabeard
For you to discount that this is a postmodern style of music is just ridiculous and pedantic, clearly you dont understand the concept of post-modernism.



I didn't read the definition, no. That's because I studied Modernism and Post-modernism at post-graduate level, so I'm not beholden to what dictionary.com has to say in their quick summing up of the movement.

Post-modernism is not the issue here, in any case. 'Post-rock' is.

It's a lazy label. That's quite simply all there is to say on it.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
"The name can't originate from post-modern, because a) it's not"

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
"Post-modernism is not the issue here"

It is partly the issue yes, as you say it is not when it quite clearly is, I too have studied Modernism and Post Modernism at degree level, i have also studied the history of art, so I too know what I am talking about. And I said Led Zep were post modern in relation to their time in history and how they treated music, not that they were post modern in the sense that it is perceived today

Also I did not just create the phrase "Post - Rock" it is a term that has been used for years to describe this type of music.

You may percieve it as a lazy label, that does not make it so. I think your using lazy debating skills.

And it most definitely is Post Modern, and if its not tell me why it is not.

It's a lazy label because of the sheer scope of what it's implying.

"Post-rock".

It just defies sense, after-rock. Anything after a certain point is post something so it makes no sense defining it by what came before. Just by what it is now.

Godspeed (who were the subject of debate) are an instrumental rock band. They're no more post-hardcore than Mastodon are post-pop because they succeeded Michael Jackson.

-AC

*Edit on account of accidental double post*

-AC

Most labels do not do justice to any artform.

However the issue was also if it was postmodern and we were not just talking about GYBE, I was refering to many different bands Mogwai and Slint, to name but two.

And it does not just mean After-Rock.

Have a look at this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-modern_music

I'm not part of your post-modernism discussion with Victor, I'm discussing why you labelled these bands (specifically Godspeed and Explosions) as post-rock. They're not. They're instrumental rock.

There's actually people who consider 'post-everything' to be a genre. To prefix 'post-' is just unnecessary.

-AC

What I don't get is this.

Why does EVERYTHING needed to labeled as to fit specifically into a genre? It's ridiculous.

Because as music becomes more stealable it becomes more accessible and those who couldn't be bothered to get into music before, are now doing so because they're lazy scumbags who want everything for free and with no effort.

This means music will become a more popular discussion point and it's obviously gonna be hip to know your mathcore from your metalcore.

Despite the former not existing and the latter being full of bands so shit that genre is irrelevant.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not part of your post-modernism discussion with Victor, I'm discussing why you labelled these bands (specifically Godspeed and Explosions) as post-rock. They're not. They're instrumental rock.

There's actually people who consider 'post-everything' to be a genre. To prefix 'post-' is just unnecessary.

-AC

It is of course subjective, YOU can call it whatever you like , I call them Post-Rock bands. They do indeed make instrumental music, some of which , I certainly wouldnt class as rock music.

In my opinion and many others, they are Post-rock

Also these bands do not exclusively make instrumental music, Mogwai in particular, have lyrics in their songs, spoken word, conversations and sometimes even singing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-rock

Well then why attach them with post-rock if you don't considering what they do to be rock, or a bulk of?

They're an instrumental band. Stop sending me wikipedia links as if I need educating on music, I don't. I also don't need wikipedia to back me up.

I'm referring solely to Godspeed and Explosions..., not Mogwai. Godspeed have the odd spoken word bit. The only vocals they have besides that are samples. Eg: "Welcome to Barco Am/Pm...".

-AC

A lot of their stuff I do consider rock, but it is Post-Rock, this is not the same as "plain old" Rock music.

And the links are not just for you, they are for anyone else reading this thread.

And your comments from above undermine the line your taking with them being instrumental.

But like i said , it's subjective, YOU can call it what you like.

Originally posted by papabeard
A lot of their stuff I do consider rock, but it is Post-Rock, this is not the same as "plain old" Rock music.

And the links are not just for you, they are for anyone else reading this thread.

And your comments from above undermine the line your taking with them being instrumental.

But like i said , it's subjective, YOU can call it what you like.

Them having a minute or LESS of a voice sample in a thirty minute song doesn't negate their ability to be an instrumental band. That's nitpicking.

Their music isn't post-rock though. I'm not saying the MUSIC that you label post-rock doesn't exist, just that it's a stupid label. As Victor and I have continually said, you could argue post-modern elements but you could do that with absolutely anything. Choosing to do so with rock doesn't make it any less of a silly notion.

-AC

You may think that it is a stupid label, thats fine.

But their music is Post-Rock.

I dont think post-modernism is a silly notion, as music is an art form and therefore theories of post modernism can be applied to it.

It makes no sense for us to barter back and forth saying Im right and you are wrong, like I said its subjective, I have provided evidence as to why I think that it can be classed as Post-Modern, you have provided no evidence to the contrary, other than to say i am wrong.

Originally posted by papabeard
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
"The name can't originate from post-modern, because a) it's not"

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
"Post-modernism is not the issue here"



Thanks, I did say those things.

Personally, I have issue with the term post-rock. You can debate post-modernism if you wish, but it's not the point at hand.


Originally posted by papabeard

It is partly the issue yes, as you say it is not when it quite clearly is, I too have studied Modernism and Post Modernism at degree level, i have also studied the history of art, so I too know what I am talking about. And I said Led Zep were post modern in relation to their time in history and how they treated music, not that they were post modern in the sense that it is perceived today

Almost anything is post-modern in those terms though. Stupidly, under those criteria, Modernist literature is actually post-modern. As, in this case, post-rock is no longer an independent genre but one actually named in a concatenate why.

I merely have issue with such dependent labelling, because it is lazy, and only leads to stupid situations. What will the next genre be, post-post-rock?

In any case, I don't even think GYBE are definitely the same genre as Mogwai, who, if we are trying to append such a label, have much more of an affinity with ideas of 'post-rock'.

Originally posted by papabeard

Also I did not just create the phrase "Post - Rock" it is a term that has been used for years to describe this type of music.

I didn't accuse you of creating the label, which is why the fact that you seem to be taking the criticism to heart is slightly odd.

Originally posted by papabeard

You may percieve it as a lazy label, that does not make it so. I think your using lazy debating skills.

We are all entitled to our opinion. Mine is that 'percieve' and 'your' shows lazy spelling and grammar skills.

Originally posted by papabeard

And it most definitely is Post Modern, and if its not tell me why it is not.

I quite clearly stated earlier that there are post-modern elements. There are post-modern elements in lots of things, that doesn't mean we call all these things post-modern.

If we are to continue the debate, stick to a discussion of 'post-rock', because the post-modernism argument is an aside. Even if we accept it as the source of the name, which is tenuous, it doesn't change the laziness of the genre label.

Quote :
"stick to a discussion of 'post-rock', because the post-modernism argument is an aside"

As are the issues of grammar and spelling.

Quote :

"no longer an independent genre but one actually named in a concatenate why."

Did you mean "concatenate way" ?

and I believe you used "ricidulous", quite easy to make a spelling mistake isnt it?

So basicly any artist using rock instruments but not making rock music is making post-rock?

Originally posted by papabeard
Quote :
"stick to a discussion of 'post-rock', because the post-modernism argument is an aside"

As are the issues of grammar and spelling.

Quote :

"no longer an independent genre but one actually named in a concatenate why."

Did you mean "concatenate way" ?

and I believe you used "ricidulous", quite easy to make a spelling mistake isnt it?

No, it's easy to make a typo though.

Relax. No big deal. Genre labels.

All good fun.

Originally posted by Bierbommetje
So basicly any artist using rock instruments but not making rock music is making post-rock?

For some, that is the view.