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We all know Obi-Wan can beat Grievous using form III but can he beat him when using Ataru?

wow nice thread. i think that he can not. He swiched for a reason. if he jumped GG would cut him to bits.

Just thought of the idea to and I agree with you 100% but I want to hear other people's opinions.

You can't make speculatory threads like this and expect a reasonable answer. I could just as easily say 'Grievous with Force Lighting and 10 arms versus a Six-foot tall Dark Side Yoda'.

What do you mean speculation Obi-Wan has used form IV before.

he used it when fighting maul, dooku, dooku in ROTS, and Anakin.

No he never used it against Dooku, correct me if I am wrong.

The why not put TPM Obi-Wan instead of 'Obi-Wan with Ataru'?

Youre wrong......lol

No he used it i think. he was jumping crazy. yet i may be wrong.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
The why not put TPM Obi-Wan instead of 'Obi-Wan with Ataru'? Since TPM padawan gets pwned.

Because TPM Obi-Wan would be destroyed by Grievous and because we have seen ROTS Obi-Wan use Ataru.

Explain to me why a Soresu master would use Ataru. Obi-Wan doesn't use Ataru after TPM. Ever.

Actually if I remember correctly he used it against Anakin in ROTS.

Well, giving ground and not doing so much as a single flip throughout the entire duel doesn't seem very characteristic of an Ataru-user, does it.

Well Obi-Wan wasn't that conservative in that duel and that is not very characteristic of a Soresu user is it.

Uh, Soresu is not just how you swing your glowstick; it's a fighting philosophy. Obi-Wan was DEFENSIVE in his fight with Anakin. This is Soresu philosophy, not Ataru, which is OFFENSIVE.

Well...going offensive into the fight with Grievous, Obi-Wan would have force pushed him first instead of fighting him.

And considering the fact that TPM Obi-Wan with form IV was able to cut Maul's lightsaber into pieces and put Maul on his ass I'm pretty sure ROTS Obi-Wan using form IV would still kick Grievous.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, giving ground and not doing so much as a single flip throughout the entire duel doesn't seem very characteristic of an Ataru-user, does it.
Look at the beginning of the duel for he did a lot of spins and twists and fought more like he did in TPM.

Yet he gave ground like nothing else. Nothing reminiscent of his TPM form.

And spins and twists don't make you an Ataru practitioner, man. Did you not read what I wrote above, Jack?

Uh, Soresu is not just how you swing your glowstick; it's a fighting philosophy. Obi-Wan was DEFENSIVE in his fight with Anakin. This is Soresu philosophy, not Ataru, which is OFFENSIVE.

If you paid more attention to what I post you might not be wrong most of the time.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Yet he gave ground like nothing else. Nothing reminiscent of his TPM form.
Obi-Wan gave ground because he didn't actually want to kill Anakin and Anakin wanted to kill Obi-Wan.

No, Obi-Wan gave ground because he had to. I have it on DVD. And unlike Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan actually won with a defensive play. Qui-Gon got a hole through his chest.

Qu-Gon gave ground to Maul in the room he died in. Maul gave ground before because he was facing two Jedi.

So.... What's your point, if any?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Yet he gave ground like nothing else. Nothing reminiscent of his TPM form.

Let us keep in mind that ROTS Obi is much smarter than TPM Obi. Obi used some Ataru, but it was always in addition to his mastered style of Soresu.

Originally posted by Ianus
Uh, Soresu is not just how you swing your glowstick; it's a fighting philosophy. Obi-Wan was DEFENSIVE in his fight with Anakin. This is Soresu philosophy, not Ataru, which is OFFENSIVE.

Soresu is the most defensive form. Not "The Defense Form". Practitioners of Soresu wait for weaknesses in they're opponent's defense's and use that to they're advantage. Soresu practitioners also employ the use of counter-attacks like Makashi practitioners.

Uh huh.

Last I checked Obi-Wan ABANDONED the style of Ataru because of its inherent weakness which he realized when Qui-Gon was defeated.

Styles are more reflective of a fighter's attitude to fighting, not his moves. If I am of the mind of a Soresu user (Meaning I focus on a tight defense, close efficient moves, and blaster bolt deflection techniques) and I do a single spin or flip, this does not mean I have suddenly "gone Ataru" for all of five seconds. Ataru is an OFFENSIVE fighting form that emphasises many flips, spins, and other Force-aided acrobatics to effeectively flurry the opponent into submission.

And actually, of all the forms Shien/Djem So supposively has Makashi'like counters, not Soresu.

Originally posted by Ianus
Uh huh.

Last I checked Obi-Wan ABANDONED the style of Ataru because of its inherent weakness which he realized when Qui-Gon was defeated.

Styles are more reflective of a fighter's attitude to fighting, not his moves. If I am of the mind of a Soresu user (Meaning I focus on a tight defense, close efficient moves, and blaster bolt deflection techniques) and I do a single spin or flip, this does not mean I have suddenly "gone Ataru" for all of five seconds. Ataru is an OFFENSIVE fighting form that emphasises many flips, spins, and other Force-aided acrobatics to effeectively flurry the opponent into submission.

And actually, of all the forms Shien/Djem So supposively has Makashi'like counters, not Soresu.

While Shien/Djem So does do the whole Makashi like counters, we have to remember that Shien/Djem So originates from Soresu. Obi did use Ataru characteristics in his fight aqgainst Anakin. That was my point not "Obi went Ataru on Anakin's ass"

Ok then. The fact remains that Obi-Wan was giving ground throughout the entire fight, fighting defensively. If there was no high ground, I'm not sure if Obi-Wan's (or Anakin's) stamina could have kept going.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Explain to me why a Soresu master would use Ataru. Obi-Wan doesn't use Ataru after TPM. Ever.

Actually Obi-wan does use it after TPM for at least another decade, but he starts to incorporate Soresu into it earlier.

This would basically be Obi-wan with TPM saber skills, as he didn't increase his Ataru skill after then. GG would defeat him as Obi-wan's Mastery of Soresu was his biggest advantage.

Is this ROTS Obi-Wan had he not switched forms? If so, i think Obi could still win. Changing made him more powerful but he'd still be pretty powerful even if he hadn't changed. Powerful enough to defeat Grievous, IMO.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Is this ROTS Obi-Wan had he not switched forms? If so, i think Obi could still win. Changing made him more powerful but he'd still be pretty powerful even if he hadn't changed. Powerful enough to defeat Grievous, IMO.

The biggest reason that Obi-wan was sent to defeat GG was because of Soresu. Without this, he'd lose the main reason why he was able to defeat GG.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The biggest reason that Obi-wan was sent to defeat GG was because of Soresu. Without this, he'd lose the main reason why he was able to defeat GG.
Maybe, but we don't really know how strong he would be in ROTS had he not changed. But I think it's safe to say he'd still be pretty powerful. And if Cin can beat Grievous I think Obi could, even if he hadn't switched forms (no disrespect to Cin intended).

I don't think this thread is about if he changed, rather if he hadn't used Soresu at ROTS.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think this thread is about if he changed, rather if he hadn't used Soresu at ROTS.
Yeah, I know. I said if he hadn't changed.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, I know. I said if he hadn't changed.

But that's not what the thread is on.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
But that's not what the thread is on.
It's about could Obi-Wan beat Grievous when using Ataru, which means if he hadn't changed since he used Ataru in TPM (right).

I think it means if Obi-wan could defeat GG if he hadn't learned Soresu at all, not that he necessarily kept learning Ataru.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I think it means if Obi-wan could defeat GG if he hadn't learned Soresu at all, not that he necessarily kept learning Ataru.
So it's TPM Obi-Wan?

That with other things he has learned since then, such as force powers, increased stamina because of the Clone Wars, ect.

obi-wan would kill GG using any form. and i'm pretty sure that somewhere lucus says that obi-wan swiches forms because thats the only way he can beat anakin since anakin knows him so well and knows that he will only be defensive. that makes sense and sounds like something that obi would do sinces he's pretty smart like that.

Originally posted by Luke Is Better
obi-wan would kill GG using any form. and i'm pretty sure that somewhere lucus says that obi-wan swiches forms because thats the only way he can beat anakin since anakin knows him so well and knows that he will only be defensive. that makes sense and sounds like something that obi would do sinces he's pretty smart like that.
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Originally posted by overlord
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Ditto.
It's actually made clearer in the novelization. The only reason Obi-Wan was able to beat Grievous was because he was using soresu. He was able to block Grievous' stikes to begin with, but Grievous kept speeding up his attack rate. That eventually overpowered Obi-Wan's ability to block, so he let the strike through, but severed the lightsaber's emitter a split second before it would have decapitated him. He did this a second time, so Grievous only had two lightsabers, which made him much less of a threat. However... He then used a Force Push to get Grievous away from him, he didn't actually beat him by duelling. If Obi-Wan had used ataru, Grievous would have been able to track his movements and slash him in mid-air, just as Obi-Wan was able to do to Anakin. I suspect that had Obi-Wan not used a Force Push, he would have continued to sever all Grievous' sabers and then decapitated him when he was unarmed.

Yeah and just think about obi-wan would kill GG using any form. I can imagine Obi Wan winning with the diplomats form.. Not!
He probably thought that because Obi has a blaster, he wins by default.

All you who are saying that Grievous puts fear into a Jedi wouldn't that go against the code? A Jedi shall not know fear. Yoda made it very clear with the whole fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering speech.

I won't bother responding to that. . .

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
All you who are saying that Grievous puts fear into a Jedi wouldn't that go against the code? A Jedi shall not know fear. Yoda made it very clear with the whole fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering speech.

AAAAAAAAHH!! JEDI CAN NOT FEAR!!! btw: What the freaking hell happened in the Obi/Maul fight? I guess Obi's now a sith too, isn't he?

When was he afraid when he was pissed off and fighting Maul more or when he was focusing on getting Qui-Gon's lightsaber to kill Maul?

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
When was he afraid when he was pissed off and fighting Maul more or when he was focusing on getting Qui-Gon's lightsaber to kill Maul?
tsk tsk tsk, wouldn't that go against the code? A Jedi shall not know anger. Yoda made it very clear with the whole anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering speech.
(I copy/pasted this from you, killer cool)

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That with other things he has learned since then, such as force powers, increased stamina because of the Clone Wars, ect.
Yeah, that's what I said, ROTS Obi-Wan had he hadn't changed forms. That's exactly the same thing. Casue then he'd use form IV still plus he'd have gained experience from the wars and stuff. And he would have imporved his saber skills, too.

No. It's ROTS Obi-wan as was seen, but without using Soresu. He still knows Soresu, but just isn't using it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No. It's ROTS Obi-wan as was seen, but without using Soresu. He still knows Soresu, but just isn't using it.
If Obi-Wan had gone up against Grievous using any form other than Soresu, he would have wound up like Anakin did on Mustafar...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No. It's ROTS Obi-wan as was seen, but without using Soresu. He still knows Soresu, but just isn't using it.
Oh. Soryy for my stupidenty. But still Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Ditto.
It's actually made clearer in the novelization. The only reason Obi-Wan was able to beat Grievous was because he was using soresu. He was able to block Grievous' stikes to begin with, but Grievous kept speeding up his attack rate. That eventually overpowered Obi-Wan's ability to block, so he let the strike through, but severed the lightsaber's emitter a split second before it would have decapitated him. He did this a second time, so Grievous only had two lightsabers, which made him much less of a threat. However... He then used a Force Push to get Grievous away from him, he didn't actually beat him by duelling. If Obi-Wan had used ataru, Grievous would have been able to track his movements and slash him in mid-air, just as Obi-Wan was able to do to Anakin. I suspect that had Obi-Wan not used a Force Push, he would have continued to sever all Grievous' sabers and then decapitated him when he was unarmed.

I agree with that entirely.