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Victory?

Two duo with Revan and co. BTW, I have no relation to Gryn Jabar whatsoever.

lol

Traya can probably drain Revan since her technique is supposively one which "there is no defense". Certainly three jedi masters couldn't defend against it and Nihilus using a more uber version ate an entire planet of Force users.

Now, Nadd -might- be powerful enough to overwhelm either Kun or Traya with his powers, seeing as he pretty much tooled King Ommnin with little effort from beyond the grave. However, I'm gonna give Traya and Kun the benefit of the doubt and say they can get the jump on Revan and Nadd. Traya drains Revan and/or Nadd, Kun works some sith magic or pwns with his lightsaber. Either way I think Kun/Traya has this more often than not.

Well, when has Traya EVER shown the ability to use this besides once, against the masters? She didn't even use it when fighting the Exile AFAIk. Can that even be counted as canon?

Agreed. Revan is rumored to be more powerful than Kreia, and he most likely is, but we do not have a firm estimate of Revan's Force powers, save for irrelevant in-game experience - and the ramblings of his loyal cadre of fanboys. So Revan may be defeated by Kreia, so long as she uses the Force. We do know that Revan defeated the Echani and Mandalore, so he'd probably tool her in a saber duel. But Kreia's smarter than that, so I think she'll beat him. And I think Kun could take Revan in either category.

And I think it'll take both Kun and Traya to take down Nadd, for reasons that Ianus said. So... Revan would be defeated by either Kun or Kreia, and it'll take both of them to slay Nadd.

I dunno.

Originally posted by Mr. Jabarus
Well, when has Traya EVER shown the ability to use this besides once, against the masters? She didn't even use it when fighting the Exile AFAIk. Can that even be counted as canon?

Yes, it can. There's the possibility that she used it to kill the Sith Assassins Sion sent after her on Malachor V. In any case, the idea that she can only use it via the exile or only use it once isn't proven concerete, so I'm assuming she can use it (Considering that Nihilus can and the Sith assassins have a variant of it and she trained all of them.)

And yes, it happens in both endings and unless KOTOR III comes out and contradicts that it's the closest we have to KOTOR canon events.

I reckon that Traya could kill Revan. Although Exar and Nadd are a tough match. Exar was amazingly powerful and Nadd conquered a planet with a blaster pistol and a short lightsabre.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
I reckon that Traya could kill Revan. Although Exar and Nadd are a tough match. Exar was amazingly powerful and Nadd conquered a planet with a blaster pistol and a short lightsabre.

Oh, I agree. But, Kreia's lightsaber skills are pathetic when compared to Revan, who defeated the Echani, Mandalore, and Malak. It's safe to say she can't hold her own in a lightsaber duel against Revan. But Kreia is brilliant, so I'm pretty sure she's not that dumb, and hopefully her powers will be enough to kill Revan. She can't take Nadd on her own, and neither can Kun. It will take them BOTH to beat him.

Originally posted by Ianus
Yes, it can. There's the possibility that she used it to kill the Sith Assassins Sion sent after her on Malachor V. In any case, the idea that she can only use it via the exile or only use it once isn't proven concerete, so I'm assuming she can use it (Considering that Nihilus can and the Sith assassins have a variant of it and she trained all of them.)

And yes, it happens in both endings and unless KOTOR III comes out and contradicts that it's the closest we have to KOTOR canon events.

It's still just a possibilty. Even if she used it twice, there are plenty of other times it would have been helpful.

Anyway, I think Nadd and Revan win. Nadd could take either Kun or Kreia and Revan could hold off either one long enough to get assisstance from Nadd.

Nadd has been able to school armies before, so clearly he has the force powers to do it. The guy arguably killed Sadow, which is quite a feat, even if it was Sadow's spirit.

Revan is the biggest unknown in this fight of unknowns. He's reputably stronger than Kreia. People forget that he's a tactical genius too. It's not like he's a dumbass like Anakin. I don't know, with Revan's precog and Nadd's incredible force powers, I think they can take it. But I'll say Kun has the best lightsaber abilities of the four, and he has some amazing force powers to boot. Kriea and Kun have a shot too. Close match.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Nadd has been able to school armies before, so clearly he has the force powers to do it. The guy arguably killed Sadow, which is quite a feat, even if it was Sadow's spirit.


If he killed Sadow then he killed a "living" Sadow. Sadow was in a state of suspended animation before Nadd ran across him - so he was still alive.
But it's questionable that Nadd did kill Sadow since he went to Onderon to form his own Sith Empire. That means either that he didn't kill Sadow and thereby couldn't hope to take over the "regular" Sith Empire or he knew that the old Sith Empire didn't exist any longer. Well...at least he did challenge Sadow and suvived it.

And if we consider Nadd's actions (challenge and maybe kill Sadow, taking over a planet on his own, repel entire armies with his Sith Magic, slaying Jedi while being armed with a short lightsaber and a blaster and instakill a powerful Sith magician even when he was only a spirit) he might be able to kill Exar and Kreia alone.

I personally see it like that:
Force power: Nadd > Exar > Kreia = or > Revan
Fighting skills: Nadd > Exar > Revan > Kreia

This is imho the worst case for Revan and Nadd (since we can only speculate about Revans powers but he's better than Kreia when it comes to lightsaber fighting) and still Revan and Nadd have a slight advantage over Kreia and Exar.
If we consider "instakill" abilities, Kreia might be able to kick Revan instantly and Nadd might be able to kill at least Kreia if not both Kreia and Exar instantly. So this might result in Nadd vs Kun in the end and I don't think that Kun would be able to win that fight.

Originally posted by Escape81
Oh, I agree. But, Kreia's lightsaber skills are pathetic when compared to Revan, who defeated the Echani, Mandalore, and Malak. It's safe to say she can't hold her own in a lightsaber duel against Revan. But Kreia is brilliant, so I'm pretty sure she's not that dumb, and hopefully her powers will be enough to kill Revan. She can't take Nadd on her own, and neither can Kun. It will take them BOTH to beat him.

Hey, but you forget Revan is no dumbass. He was a great tactician. He's more wise. And if Kreia was smart like you said, maybe she should instakill Nadd instead of Revan, since there is "no defense" to it, and then double-team Revan............

Yeah well none of the other characters are dumbasses either.

Except for GO-TO no one ever liked him, ever. He has a 'tude problem, anyway, back on topic:

For me, there are to many nknowns to determine the winner, just gut feelings. I think that Revan could defeat Traya.

None of the characters in this fight are dumbasses. And Nadd has exhibited an instant kill technique too, as a spirit no less. It's simply hard to predict who gets the first "instakill" in.

Originally posted by Mr. Jabarus
Two duo with Revan and co. BTW, I have no relation to Gryn Jabar whatsoever.

Am I the only one that finds this funny? Revan and co? So Nadd has been relegated to being Revan's sidekick?

I don't believe Nadd to be superior to Exar Kun. Nadd took over a backwater world that wasn't a member world of the Republic and killed a descendent of his (as a spirit) several hundred years later, perhaps with the aid of his own amulet. As well, I'd love to see the source that says Nadd killed jedi while armed with a blaster and short lightsaber that -isn't- KOTOR. Until I see it, I'm disinclined to believe it, especially since the Jedi only came to free Onderon several hundred years after Nadd's death. As far as I know, Nadd only confronted Jedi as a spirit.

Nadd's real lasting contribution to the dark side was to convert Satal and Aleema Keto (thereby indirectly converting Ulic Qel-Droma), and Exar Kun. I believe Kun at the height of his power against Nadd at the height of his would be a great battle, but one that Kun would almost definitely win.

Nadd took over one of the, if not the most militaristic planet in the galaxy.

And? It was a planet unprotected and barely known by the Republic. It had no force users until Nadd arrived, either. It's not a great stretch to assume that Nadd's "conquest" was the result of Sith Magic (a la Exar Kun's famous "waltz into the Galactic Senate" freeze spell) and manipulation. A force user on his level had -better- be able to take over a planet like that, or they get an F in life.

You seem to be forgetting that Nadd possibly defeated Sadow in human form, or at least survived a fight with Nadd and even as a spirit was able to instakill Omnin.

Originally posted by IKC
I don't believe Nadd to be superior to Exar Kun. Nadd took over a backwater world that wasn't a member world of the Republic and killed a descendent of his (as a spirit) several hundred years later, perhaps with the aid of his own amulet. As well, I'd love to see the source that says Nadd killed jedi while armed with a blaster and short lightsaber that -isn't- KOTOR. Until I see it, I'm disinclined to believe it, especially since the Jedi only came to free Onderon several hundred years after Nadd's death. As far as I know, Nadd only confronted Jedi as a spirit.

Nadd's real lasting contribution to the dark side was to convert Satal and Aleema Keto (thereby indirectly converting Ulic Qel-Droma), and Exar Kun. I believe Kun at the height of his power against Nadd at the height of his would be a great battle, but one that Kun would almost definitely win.

It's said in item description that hsi blaster has killed more jedi than any lightsaber up until that time.

Never says Nadd used it, though he may have constructed it or had a hand in its making. To be fair, you only find his lightsaber in his tomb. His gun is a random item drop.

Yes, and Sadow's power too is an unknown quantity. That, and nobody knows that the event even happened. I'm disinclined to think it did, for if he met Sadow on Yavin 4 while alive, there's no reason why he wouldn't have taken Sadow's very powerful amulet and taken control of his Massassi warriors like Exar Kun later did.

And I didn't forget that he killed his descendent. But, like I said, there were no force users until Nadd arrived on Onderon, and after his death he reigned over the planet from beyond the grave through his descendents who were dependent on him for power.

(Edit)

Yes, I asked for a source that wasn't KOTOR for that dubious "fact." As I've maintained, KOTOR frequently plays hard and loose with the mythos.

Point being, IKC, that Nadd may have never used his blaster at all. And I agree with you that he didn't have to do much to overcome the beast riders. While Nadd's potential seems incredible, it's entirely possible he overcame the armies of Onderon with similar Sith magic that Exar Kun used. In any case, Kun has more visible abilities and is a known lightsaber master, so in a melee battle he would probably school Nadd.

Or the blaster may not have existed until Obsidian decided that perhaps players might want a good one-handed blaster item, somewhat like what Bioware did with "Exar Kun's Light Battle Armor" or whatever that ridiculous nonsense was called. I whole-heartedly agree on the other points, Janus.

Yeah, that is a possibility too, but for the sake of EU I was willing to suspend disbelief.

Originally posted by IKC
And? It was a planet unprotected and barely known by the Republic. It had no force users until Nadd arrived, either. It's not a great stretch to assume that Nadd's "conquest" was the result of Sith Magic (a la Exar Kun's famous "waltz into the Galactic Senate" freeze spell) and manipulation. A force user on his level had -better- be able to take over a planet like that, or they get an F in life.

How is one of the most militant planets in the galaxy "unprotected" exactly? That's wikipedia/fanboy wording there.

Well, if you had read the rest of the sentence, you would see the qualifier, "by the Republic."

Another fanboy tactic is to not read all of the opposition's argument.

Nice knowing you, IKC.

I didn't fire the first shot.

Another way to look at this is if I got sent back in time to 1450 with a tank and unlimited fuel and ammunition. I could subjugate the inhabitants of a pretty large area of North America quite easily. Now, replace the location with Onderon, me with Freedon Nadd, and the tank with the Force and Sith magic.

Originally posted by IKC
Well, if you had read the rest of the sentence, you would see the qualifier, "by the Republic."

Another fanboy tactic is to not read all of the opposition's argument.

And how does the qualifier do anything? If you want to use a qualifier it has to qualify something.

Where does it say that Onderon's defenses were lacking compared to planets in the republic? All I get is that Onderon is a warlike planet and they built massive fortifications. It has beast riders, which can literally fly from Dxun to the planet, and they had defenses designed to repel those kinds of foes, you'd think that having one guy walk up to them would be "undefended"?

You have to show me where being defended by the Republic suddenly adds 500% to all defense dice rolls or something, because I don't see it.

Are you going to tell me that Coruscant, being that it's defended by the Republic is more dangerous than Tatooine? Or that Naboo is harder to conquer than Korriban? Where's your evidence?

Are you proposing Nadd looked so godly in his shining armor that the beast riders instantly were subjugated?



So by this logic, someone like Nadd would lose to Coleman Trebor, simply because technologies advanced, right? A planet like Tatooine, backwards as it is, would easily be assimilated into the Republic, right? Sith Swords were backwards clumsy artifacts, so were Sith Amulets, so they are pwned. The Force gets overtaken by technology, etc.

Planets like Nar Shaddaa, in the outer rim that have technology shouldn't exist, right?

Where exactly does it ever say Onderon was an easier target than any other planet?

Go with what the canon tells you. The canon tells you Onderon was a warlike world. The canon tells you Nadd conquered it with a short lightsaber and a blaster. Trying to say "well they were unprotected by the Republic" or "they didn't have technologies" is being daft.

This thread contians to many damn unknowns...

A: You believed that I wrote that Onderon was undefended. That was not what I wrote. I wrote it was undefended by the Republic, a galaxy-spanning government that had a far greater military force than Onderon could ever hope to amass. That, and if the Republic knew of the planet and defended it, it would mean the Jedi would as well. That didn't happen, period. The Republic and Jedi entered Onderon several hundred years after Nadd's death.

B: Yes, and the beast riders are the only foes that we know Freedon defeated. See my above posts along with Janus', it's not an impossible feat for a powerful force user. "One guy walking up to them (the Onderonian defenses)" didn't happen, Freedon took control of their government.

C: Yes, Coruscant would be a more dangerous planet to attack than Tatooine, whether it's defended by the Republic or the Empire. I'd like you to tell me how such a statement is illogical.

D: Nadd's armor, if he even had any, is irrelevant. He killed the Beast Riders through Sith magic, an unimpressive feat back then when you realize that Exar Kun could have easily done the same. Like I said,

E: You'll note I did not use the word technology, Illustrious. My comparison had to do with power, and the fact that the natives in both cases had no defense against it and no outside help. The power in my example was a tank, power in the Onderon example is Sith magic and the Force.

F: The canon does not state that Freedon Nadd conquered Onderon with a short lightsaber or a blaster. KOTOR hardly says that, and KOTOR is frequently mistaken.

Read my entire argument, as I said.

And I pointed out the irrelevence.

That's like saying Onderon has palm trees. Okay?

You're attempting to undermine a character's achievement because it wasn't defended by the republic, so I said: prove up.

Your statement, broken down:

Onderon was undefended by the Republic, ergo it was easier to capture.

Show how exactly being defended by the Republic is indicative as to how hard it is to capture? You'll have to demonstrate how the argumens supports the postulate.



Dude, he took command of Iziz. AKA the side that wages against the Beast Riders. So you're saying he charmed them onto his side? Where's your proof? It was also mentioned that Iziz was better armed than the Beast Riders, who were formidable in their own right. Nadd can't exactly conquer the planet if he only subdues one side, now can he?

Not an impossible feat? Does that explain why it took Arca Jeth using Battle Meditation on a bunch of beast riders to manage to topple Iziz?

Obviously it's not impossible, Nadd did it. Don't bother with the obvious. We're saying since Nadd did it, therefore he's powerful.



In the same way that saying France would be harder to conquer than Russia. That turned out to be so true.



Uh that was sarcasm poking fun at your logic. And where does it mention Kun can do the same? Freezing (in which Vodo was able to resist) equates to killing?



Substantiate, please.



Funny how this "KOTOR" is frequently mistaken argument only appears when convenient. So I suppose Tulak Hord doesn't even exist because it was only Kreia that said it, right? Just where do you draw that line?

Fine, if you insist, we know Nadd conquered Onderon (mentioned rather explicitly in The Freedon Nadd Uprising). And we know his spirit was strong enough to instakill a force user powerful enough to imprison Arca Jeth. Just what are you trying to prove?



I did read your argument. It would help if you attempted to argue for something. It just seems like your randomly nitpicking at something that wouldn't prove a point either way.

--"Okay, and Kun actually took ELEVEN seconds to kill Vodo instead of the TEN we suspected. He sucks!"

Didn't it say somewhere that Nadd killed more Jedi with his saber than anyone else?

Substantiation: As if I need to prove this, a planet not discovered/part of/defended by a galaxy-spanning government that has a military is easy to take control of than a planet that is not. I'd like you to prove otherwise.



Quite obviously, yes, seeing as his descendents became the Kings and Queens of Iziz and not of Naddania. I'm sure he doesn't use subterfuge on the level of Palpatine, but I'm quite certain that his defeat of the Beast Riders certainly set him in high esteem with the people of Iziz. In other words, he didn't conquer the planet. He took control by show of power and set up his continued reign via his descendents, which he controlled and granted power to.



Exactly where did I make this argument? In case you didn't know, Coruscant is a planet-wide city that just happens to be the historical center of galactic government. Its population is estimated to number in the tens of trillions. Tatooine is a planet-wide desert with sparse inhabitants and little in the way of planetary defenses. Coruscant is near the core, Tatooine near the outer rim. Other than it being the home planet of two Skywalkers and a Hutt crime cartel, Tatooine is relatively unimportant to galactic affairs.

I'd say it would be significantly harder to conquer Coruscant than Tatooine.



Vodo was a force user and Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, for one, making pointing him out irrelevant. And, if one's enemy is paralyzed, I would imagine it would be child's play to slaughter them at one's whim. Like I said, a feat easily replicated by Kun.



I already have. Power, whether it takes the form of technology or Sith magic and the Force, overcomes those who don't have it and have no defenses against it.



Maybe you haven't read many of my posts. I've repeatedly stated that KOTOR is not canon in my eyes. Don't pull the inconsistency card on me, because I've been firm on this. The line is drawn as this, for me: KOTOR isn't canon.



Yes, we do know that Nadd took control, easily, of a backwater world with no force users. We also know his spirit was strong enough to instakill a force user that was already a puppet of his. Arca Jeth's power is an unknown quantity.

What I'm trying to prove is that Freedon Nadd's supposed accomplishments are not proof of his overwhelming power or anything close. I believe Exar Kun surpasses his achievements and his power.



In KOTOR, yes. But that's contested, because the Jedi and Republic only went into Onderon several hundred years after Nadd's death, like I said. Nadd's accomplishments before his arrival on Onderon are even more murky than what we know about after his arrival.

I don't have to prove otherwise. You're trying to tell me that Onderon, regarded as a militant nation, is somehow weak and easily conquerable. It certainly explains why it was never done until Nadd, doesn't it?



You're "quite certain"? Too bad the events of SW chronology isn't what IKC dictates, now is it? You still haven't established how defeating the beast riders is easy, or that he absolutely did conquer it virtue of a diplomatic ploy.



Do I need to look up analogy for you? Don't attempt to get snappy if you can't bring the goods.



In the same whim as "France is a heavily fortified nation with a largest standing armed forces, the most advanced military technology, and one of the more opulent western civilizations juxtaposed to Russia is a barren land of sparse natural resources per square mile. It's a largely backwards nation with little in the way of weaponry."

Again, stop pulling the "you say" cards, they are irrelevent.



Okay, and none of those people in the Senate outside of Vodo had a defense against Kun's freezing magic. Does that mean he's overrated and less powerful than Nadd, who was able to wipe out armies?

Please, now it's technicalities, next it'll be semantics.



Okay, so Traya doesn't exist, Revan never had his power substantiated, and this battle is unresolvable. Good job getting to that point.



How is "one of the most respected Jedi Masters" an unknown quantity exactly? Regardless, you can't call him a weakling.

He was a descendent, where does it say Nadd could do whatever he wishes on him?



And you attempt to undermine Nadd's accomplishments to achieve that end. Boy, I hope you aren't a Sidious supporter.



So those people in KOTOR say it for kicks and giggles? Is it necessarily 100% accurate? No, but discounting that completely is like discounting that Revan never existed.

A: I didn't say Onderon was easily conquerable, I said it was easily taken control of by a dark side Force user of Nadd's level with knowledge of Sith magic.

As well, an explanation for why Onderon wasn't conquered before Nadd may be because hardly anyone had heard of it. It took the Republic and Jedi hundreds of years after Nadd's death to get off their asses and look into Onderon.

B: Defeating the Beast Riders, for someone of Nadd's level is child's play. See my "freeze spell" argument. There are plenty of techniques just as effective. DE Sidious could have done so, for instance.

C: Good, you're making the argument that Tatooine is harder to conquer than Coruscant. Now prove it, because I've made the argument to the contrary. Your analogy is flawed, too, since Tatooine's population in comparison to Coruscant's doesn't jive with Russia's to France's, and Tatooine isn't the seat of any government whereas Coruscant is. A better analogy would be a comparison of how easy Washington D.C. might be to conquer relative to how easy it might be to conquer Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia.



D: You're making my point. The Beast Riders have no hope against any Force user like Nadd, whether Dark or Light. Their defeat, again, is not indicative of Nadd's greatness. I've already submitted that this feat can be easily replicated by others.

E: Since KOTOR is part of the subject matter, the battle is resolvable. That doesn't make it canon. Since KOTOR likely contradicts other sources regarding Nadd (i.e. claiming he fought Jedi while still alive, which is dubious), then it can be discarded. As well, since KOTOR has nothing to do with either of these men other than mentions of them within both games, then we can argue this point without going into KOTOR.

Besides, I submit that both Kreia and Revan would be stomped by Freedon or Exar.



Respect doesn't make him powerful. Arca Jeth was respected for his great wisdom and battle meditation abilities, not his fighting prowess. I can say that he was nowhere near one of the most powerful force users, considering that he was captured on Onderon and killed by a Krath droid ambush some years later while surrounded by hundreds, perhaps thousands of other Jedi.



Yes, because Nadd's accomplishments are said to be indicative of his great power, and somehow conquering a backwater, nonmember world of the Republic and harassing jedi as a spirit hundreds of years later makes him greater than Exar Kun, who was actually declared the Dark Lord of the Sith and did far more than Nadd could ever achieve, in the process accumulating more knowledge and power than he could use.



No, they say it because they are making a video game. Read below:

Originally posted by IKC
Respect doesn't make him powerful. Arca Jeth was respected for his great wisdom and battle meditation abilities, not his fighting prowess. I can say that he was nowhere near one of the most powerful force users, considering that he was captured on Onderon and killed by a Krath droid ambush some years later while surrounded by hundreds, perhaps thousands of other Jedi.

You do realize that GG's droid parts are based on Krath War Droids, exactly the same except that Krath War Droids are powered by Sith Magic.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Didn't it say somewhere that Nadd killed more Jedi with his saber than anyone else?

In KOTOR 2 it says that his blaster has killed more Jedi than any lightsaber.

P.S.- I ended up with 2 of his blasters, two weapon fighting, beezneez.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You do realize that GG's droid parts are based on Krath War Droids, exactly the same except that Krath War Droids are powered by Sith Magic.

Indeed, but the ambush wasn't made by Krath war droids. They were serving and protocol droids that had been sabotaged and given weapons.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You do realize that GG's droid parts are based on Krath War Droids, exactly the same except that Krath War Droids are powered by Sith Magic.

His appearance was reminiscent of a Krath War Droid. But the functions of the parts were unrelated.

Originally posted by IKC
Indeed, but the ambush wasn't made by Krath war droids. They were serving and protocol droids that had been sabotaged and given weapons.

So if I put a bomb in say, your vacuum cleaner, you wouldn't be thrown off for a while when it went off?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
His appearance was reminiscent of a Krath War Droid. But the functions of the parts were unrelated.

I don't remember it saying GG was like Krath War Droids only in appearence, and until I see that I see no reason for assuming they are any different function-wise.

Using your analogy, if I were "one of the most respected Jedi masters" and surrounded by literally thousands of other Jedi, no. I wouldn't expect to be thrown off.

Like I said, Arca isn't extraordinarily powerful. He excelled in two areas: wisdom and battle meditation.

It's the factor of surprise that does it. I think you would in fact be surprised if a bunch of unarmed droids busted out some heavy weapons. Look what happened to Mace when he got surprised by Anakin cutting off his hand, or every PT Jedi killed in the Purge, for that matter.

I know, but you need to remember that there's thousands of other Jedi in the area. Nothing in TOTJ tells us that Arca was a special target, so his death was rather unnecessary.

How long were the Jedi stunned for? It didn't seem very long, and then thousands of GG's came in.

GG's? General Grievous'?

Because that didn't happen. The droids were pretty much already there. Besides, aren't you making my point? Arca didn't have to die if he were a competant warrior.

GG was able to take five PT Jedi. Mace probably couldn't have done that. There were thousands of the equivelent to GG runing around.

How do you know Arca wasn't a target? He was one of the leaders of the Order. It makes sense that he would be one.

You're not getting the point. The droids were in no way similar to General Grievous, they were servant and protocol models. And if Arca were a target, why weren't even more ancient and revered Jedi Masters like Vodo Baas, Thon, and Odan-Urr targets as well?

The droids in the ambush were in no way the equivalent of Grievous.

Grevious was built from the Krath War Droid design, so they are similar.

Was Vodo, Thon, and Odan even there?

All three were there, yes. And again, the droids that sprung the trap were not Krath War Droids.

Krath War Droids arrived while the ambush was taking place, the modified servant droids had already turned on the Jedi. Thus, the Jedi were already in a heightened state of alert when the war droids arrived.

That, and Arca was assassinated while warning Ulic to be careful, that a Jedi never knows when the next attack might come.

Originally posted by IKC
A: You believed that I wrote that Onderon was undefended. That was not what I wrote. I wrote it was undefended by the Republic, a galaxy-spanning government that had a far greater military force than Onderon could ever hope to amass. That, and if the Republic knew of the planet and defended it, it would mean the Jedi would as well. That didn't happen, period. The Republic and Jedi entered Onderon several hundred years after Nadd's death.

Erm...sorry. The Republic and the Jedi were two different organisations before the Ruusan reformation. Arca Jeth was the watchman of Onderon (and he was several centuries old) although Onderon didn't belong to the Republic and in fact the Jedi (again not the Republic) dispatched an army of Jedi Knights to fight Nadd (therefore the discription of his weapons in KotoR).



And again: Exar Kun could only hold the Republic forces coming for him back using the "temples" on Yavin 4 to focus and strengthen his force powers. Nadd did it without having nice little "help" like that.
And even when you want to use his ability to "freeze the Senate" as an argument - that isn't enough to proof that he would have been able to take on an entire army of people and pretty much waste them.



The statement is illogical because Onderon was a military society fighting a permanent war over decades or centuries against the beast Riders. Nadd took down Iziz and then he took down the beast riders on his own. So he fought against 2 or (if you want to assume he took Iziz in a diplomatic way which is totally out of his character) at least 1 army that was driven by a society that was totally focussed on war.



The point is that the statement "Exar Kun could have easily done the same" is nothing more than assumption since Exar never did something like that.



It doesn't matter how he conquered Onderon. Fact is that he did it alone and that's impressive enough if we consider the workings of the Onderon society.



He was killed by droids which are programmed to kill the biggest threat on the battle field first ? The fact that they used sabotaged protocol droids to do this doesn't make Arca Jeth less powerful. Why would somebody attempt to assasinate a single Jedi and after this throw his "battle droids" against all others with the intend to kill them if this single Jedi is nothing special ? Just because of his battle meditation ? I'm pretty sure there were tons of Jedi able to use battle meditation so why kill this single one ?



Again. Fact is that Exar Kun's spirit with all the power stored in the Massasi temples was not able to instakill force users - neither Luke nor Luke's students although he had the intention to kill them on some ocassions. Nadd's spirit was able to do that. That alone is enough to say that Nadd was more powerful than Kun.

If that isn't enough for you. Sith knowledge decreased over the centuries because they always killed their masters before being taught everything their masters knew. In fact it's part of the Sith philosophy not to reveal everything you have learned to your students. So how would Kun be more powerful than his own teacher (Nadd) whos spirit he destroyed before having learned everything.

And for Nadd's fighting abilities: He wasted his former Jedi Master because he didn't give him the status of a Jedi Knight and he was able to survive (or even win) a direct confrontation with Sadow. That places him on one level with people which Kreia herself thinks of being able to make people in KotoR times (including herself and Exar) look like children fighting eachother with toys when it comes to lightsaber combat. We don't have to take that statement as "truth" but still it seems that Nadd would be quite more skilled in terms of force powers and combat than Kreia or Exar are.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He was killed by droids which are programmed to kill the biggest threat on the battle field first ? The fact that they used sabotaged protocol droids to do this doesn't make Arca Jeth less powerful. Why would somebody attempt to assasinate a single Jedi and after this throw his "battle droids" against all others with the intend to kill them if this single Jedi is nothing special ? Just because of his battle meditation ? I'm pretty sure there were tons of Jedi able to use battle meditation so why kill this single one ?

Arca Jeth was the best there at battle meditation, perhaps?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm...sorry. The Republic and the Jedi were two different organisations before the Ruusan reformation. Arca Jeth was the watchman of Onderon (and he was several centuries old) although Onderon didn't belong to the Republic and in fact the Jedi (again not the Republic) dispatched an army of Jedi Knights to fight Nadd (therefore the discription of his weapons in KotoR).



And again: Exar Kun could only hold the Republic forces coming for him back using the "temples" on Yavin 4 to focus and strengthen his force powers. Nadd did it without having nice little "help" like that.
And even when you want to use his ability to "freeze the Senate" as an argument - that isn't enough to proof that he would have been able to take on an entire army of people and pretty much waste them.



The statement is illogical because Onderon was a military society fighting a permanent war over decades or centuries against the beast Riders. Nadd took down Iziz and then he took down the beast riders on his own. So he fought against 2 or (if you want to assume he took Iziz in a diplomatic way which is totally out of his character) at least 1 army that was driven by a society that was totally focussed on war.



The point is that the statement "Exar Kun could have easily done the same" is nothing more than assumption since Exar never did something like that.



It doesn't matter how he conquered Onderon. Fact is that he did it alone and that's impressive enough if we consider the workings of the Onderon society.



He was killed by droids which are programmed to kill the biggest threat on the battle field first ? The fact that they used sabotaged protocol droids to do this doesn't make Arca Jeth less powerful. Why would somebody attempt to assasinate a single Jedi and after this throw his "battle droids" against all others with the intend to kill them if this single Jedi is nothing special ? Just because of his battle meditation ? I'm pretty sure there were tons of Jedi able to use battle meditation so why kill this single one ?



Again. Fact is that Exar Kun's spirit with all the power stored in the Massasi temples was not able to instakill force users - neither Luke nor Luke's students although he had the intention to kill them on some ocassions. Nadd's spirit was able to do that. That alone is enough to say that Nadd was more powerful than Kun.

If that isn't enough for you. Sith knowledge decreased over the centuries because they always killed their masters before being taught everything their masters knew. In fact it's part of the Sith philosophy not to reveal everything you have learned to your students. So how would Kun be more powerful than his own teacher (Nadd) whos spirit he destroyed before having learned everything.

And for Nadd's fighting abilities: He wasted his former Jedi Master because he didn't give him the status of a Jedi Knight and he was able to survive (or even win) a direct confrontation with Sadow. That places him on one level with people which Kreia herself thinks of being able to make people in KotoR times (including herself and Exar) look like children fighting eachother with toys when it comes to lightsaber combat. We don't have to take that statement as "truth" but still it seems that Nadd would be quite more skilled in terms of force powers and combat than Kreia or Exar are.

No, they were not two different organizations. As seen in the TOTJ comics, the Jedi are closely related with the Republic. Arca Jeth was only around two hundred years old at his death, and his Jedi task force had liberated Onderon from the Dark Side only recently. That, and Freedon Nadd had taken Onderon around four hundred years before the events of TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith. Arca wasn't even born yet. Hence, there was no war against Nadd while he was alive, and those item descriptions are wrong.

And the "Republic forces" coming after Exar Kun on Yavin 4 were all of the Jedi in the galaxy. It's doubtful Kun had the temples working for him, since The Sith War doesn't show him struggling to hold the Jedi or even mention that the Jedi are being blocked in any way. Basically, he shakes his fist in the air and curses Ulic, then unleashes his spirit. (His spirit, by the way, was able to instakill students of Skywalker four thousand years later even while partially insane from solitude (Gantoris) and also able to rip Luke Skywalker from his body. That's far more powerful than instakilling a puppet of yours.)

Again, you never proved that attacking Coruscant is less dangerous than attacking Tatooine. You didn't once mention either planet in your rebuke. Nadd didn't take Iziz diplomatically, but he certainly didn't fight its army either. It was a coup, assisted by the PR boost he would have gotten from defeating the Beast Riders.

Arca Jeth is described as being the best user of Battle Meditation in TOTJ, so he still poses a threat to the Krath in ways other than his combat abilities. That, and the Krath were students of Nadd, who hated Arca for liberating Onderon. I'm sure Nadd had some doing in influencing the droid ambush.

"If that isn't enough for you. Sith knowledge decreased over the centuries because they always killed their masters before being taught everything their masters knew. In fact it's part of the Sith philosophy not to reveal everything you have learned to your students. So how would Kun be more powerful than his own teacher (Nadd) whos spirit he destroyed before having learned everything."

Easily. Because Nadd hardly learned everything himself. Nadd knew he would never become the Dark Lord, that's why he set up his little empire on Onderon. Exar Kun learned more from the writings of Sadow and others on Yavin 4 and Korriban than he ever learned from Freedon Nadd. That, and he collected a wealth of knowledge from Ossus as the conflagration from the Cron Cluster's explosion was headed toward it.

"And for Nadd's fighting abilities: He wasted his former Jedi Master because he didn't give him the status of a Jedi Knight and he was able to survive (or even win) a direct confrontation with Sadow. That places him on one level with people which Kreia herself thinks of being able to make people in KotoR times (including herself and Exar) look like children fighting eachother with toys when it comes to lightsaber combat. We don't have to take that statement as "truth" but still it seems that Nadd would be quite more skilled in terms of force powers and combat than Kreia or Exar are."

Big deal. Kun wasted his former master, the Grandmaster of the Order, in record time. A confrontation with Sadow is unconfirmed, since Nadd didn't get the fruits of victory (Sadow's amulet, the Massassi). That, and Exar is leagues above those in KOTOR. It's unfair to lump him in with them.

In addition, in order to further disprove the ridiculous notion that Nadd fought an army of Jedi, from TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith:

"Four hundred years before Arca and Thon, a dark Jedi named Freedon Nadd introduced the suppressed Sith teachings to the planet Onderon. Nadd's dark-side powers took hold on the isolated world and flourished unchecked until Master Arca brought together a band of Jedi to root them out."

Emphasis mine.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't remember it saying GG was like Krath War Droids only in appearence, and until I see that I see no reason for assuming they are any different function-wise.

Stope being difficult, Glentract. Re-read the book. Or even better. . .

It helped, of course, to have an indestructible body reminiscent of a Krath wardroid.

Page 113, Paragraph 7, Line 3. Good enough?

Originally posted by IKC
No, they were not two different organizations. As seen in the TOTJ comics, the Jedi are closely related with the Republic.


Ah. That's why they immediatly entered war against the Mandalorians when the Republic did need them, right ? The Jedi were an organisation that wasn't under the command of the Republic - as I said Republic and Jedi were different organisations.



Read what you quote. His dark side teachings flourished unchecked which doesn't mean that they didn't whipe out Nadd himself. Actually it would be pretty senseless for them to gave a Jedi the position of a watchman of a planet when the planet neither belongs to the Republic nor has anything special on it. And in fact Arca Jeth knew about the Dark Side of Iziz before sending his students there. He even declared their mission a failure because they didn't sense it.



The Jedi Academy trilogy tells us that their were "hundrets" of Jedi. All Jedi in the Galaxy ?



It's getting better and better.
a)
Jedi Academy Trilogy tells us that the used the power of the temples to keep the Jedi away for a while to perform an ancient Sith ritual to keep his spirit in the temples (again he used the power of the temples to do that).

b)
He did never instakill anybody. He toasted Gantoris with force lightning, he knocked out Dorsk-81, he force chocked Luke's students - no instakilling.

c)
He wasn't able to rip Luke Skywalker from his body. That were Kyp's and Kun's combined powers and it's even said that Luke would have been able to resist one of them attacking him on his own. And Nadd did instakill Ommin who was a powerful user of Sith magic - doesn't matter if he was Nadd's "puppet" or another powerful Sith Lord. He got pwned. Period.



Yes. It's harder to attack Coruscant than to attack Tantooine because Coruscants has 1 Trillion inhabitants and huge planetary defence where Tatooine has 40,000 inhabitants and desert only. But Tatooine is not compareable to Onderon.
And Nadd did first take Izizi and after this he defeated the Beast Riders.



On this level basically every user of battle meditation was a threat for the Krath.



Please do your homework.
Nadd was directly trained by Sadow so he very likely has seen everything that Kun has seen later. He visited Korriban before he talked Kun into visiting that world. He had pretty many Sith artifacts present on Onderon and Kun was not powerful enough to take out Nadd's spirit before having found the amulett that boosted his force powers. You shouldn't make the mistake and compare the spirit of a force user with the person that he was before. Ragnos - who was the most powerful Sith we know about - got defeated by a NJO Padawan / Jedi Knight when he was a spirit.



Does that mean that Kun is strong or does that mean Vodo was weak in this situation ? Ever tried to defeat somebody wearing a lightsaber with a cane ?



I said confrontation and not victory. It's mentioned that he wanted to kill Sadow so he would have tried that. Maybe he went to Onderon because he failed to defeat Sadow but still it's very likely that he faced him and survived that.



He's leagues above Malak, Revan (who might have studied Tulak Hords fighting technique), Nihilus, Sion and Kreia ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ah. That's why they immediatly entered war against the Mandalorians when the Republic did need them, right ? The Jedi were an organisation that wasn't under the command of the Republic - as I said Republic and Jedi were different organisations.

(Indeed, another KOTOR contradiction. Then again, a lot can happen in fifty years. The Jedi of the times of the Sith War had a Jedi problem to deal with, namely Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. If the Jedi were not tied with the Republic, why bother trying to convince the Republic senators at Qel-Droma's trial not to execute him? Since they're completely separate parties according to you, why would a Jedi's word count any more than a moisture farmer's?)

Read what you quote. His dark side teachings flourished unchecked which doesn't mean that they didn't whipe out Nadd himself. Actually it would be pretty senseless for them to gave a Jedi the position of a watchman of a planet when the planet neither belongs to the Republic nor has anything special on it. And in fact Arca Jeth knew about the Dark Side of Iziz before sending his students there. He even declared their mission a failure because they didn't sense it.

(Of course his teachings flourished unchecked, because the Onderonians had thought of him as a god for his continuous victories over the Beast Riders, made simple through Sith Magic. Again, he did not conquer the people of Iziz.)

The Jedi Academy trilogy tells us that their were "hundrets" of Jedi. All Jedi in the Galaxy ?

(The Jedi Academy Trilogy is incorrect, read TOTJ. One jedi says, "We will rally all the Jedi -- all Jedi -- against our final enemy."

Another says, "Hey, I'm receiving a flood of acknowledgements from all Jedi. Thousands of them." (Emphasis mine)

And again, near the end, the narration reads, "Thousands upon thousands of force wielders converge upon one small jungle moon."

There you have it. Exar Kun faced the combined might of all the Jedi in the galaxy and managed to survive.)

It's getting better and better.
a)
Jedi Academy Trilogy tells us that the used the power of the temples to keep the Jedi away for a while to perform an ancient Sith ritual to keep his spirit in the temples (again he used the power of the temples to do that).

(Again, TOTJ says and indicates nothing about this. It merely shows Exar Kun strapping himself down in the ritual chamber, the massassi sacrifice, and then the wave of Light Side Force energy sweeping over Yavin 4 and scorching the surface.)

b)
He did never instakill anybody. He toasted Gantoris with force lightning, he knocked out Dorsk-81, he force chocked Luke's students - no instakilling.

(As I remember, Gantoris was killed either instantaneously or almost so. Please tell me what the difference is. Remember that force spirits usually weaken as ages pass. Nadd had only been gone less than four hundred years, Exar Kun was "dead" for four thousand.)

c)
He wasn't able to rip Luke Skywalker from his body. That were Kyp's and Kun's combined powers and it's even said that Luke would have been able to resist one of them attacking him on his own. And Nadd did instakill Ommin who was a powerful user of Sith magic - doesn't matter if he was Nadd's "puppet" or another powerful Sith Lord. He got pwned. Period.

(The point about Ommin is that since he was Nadd's puppet, he was dependant on him for power. Thus, Nadd's power is easily greater than Ommin's own, especially since Ommin is his descendent.)

Yes. It's harder to attack Coruscant than to attack Tantooine because Coruscants has 1 Trillion inhabitants and huge planetary defence where Tatooine has 40,000 inhabitants and desert only. But Tatooine is not compareable to Onderon.
And Nadd did first take Izizi and after this he defeated the Beast Riders.

(He took Iziz because the people there were fascinated by his abilities. He did not conquer it. They were even more-so fascinated and worshipful of him after he fought the beast riders.)

On this level basically every user of battle meditation was a threat for the Krath.

(Indeed they were. Nomi Sunrider was able to dispel Aleema Keto's sith illusions rather easily, being as talented as she was with battle meditation. However, Arca was much better than she was at that point. As well, Nadd, who taught the Ketos, hated Arca. This made him a target of the Krath)

Please do your homework.
Nadd was directly trained by Sadow so he very likely has seen everything that Kun has seen later. He visited Korriban before he talked Kun into visiting that world. He had pretty many Sith artifacts present on Onderon and Kun was not powerful enough to take out Nadd's spirit before having found the amulett that boosted his force powers. You shouldn't make the mistake and compare the spirit of a force user with the person that he was before. Ragnos - who was the most powerful Sith we know about - got defeated by a NJO Padawan / Jedi Knight when he was a spirit.

(Do you really think Sadow would have taught Nadd everything he knew? Absolutely not, he was a Sith, and not a stupid one. Exar Kun, however, has learned by his death everything (or almost everything) Sadow and his followers had ever written down, as well as secrets from Korriban and Nadd's tomb on Dxun and ancient Jedi secrets from Ossus. And don't bust out Ragnos. For one, spirits get weaker with age, and second his true power is an unknown quantity.)

Does that mean that Kun is strong or does that mean Vodo was weak in this situation ? Ever tried to defeat somebody wearing a lightsaber with a cane ?

(Do some homework. TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith - "With the Force, Vodo can make his simple staff more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

I said confrontation and not victory. It's mentioned that he wanted to kill Sadow so he would have tried that. Maybe he went to Onderon because he failed to defeat Sadow but still it's very likely that he faced him and survived that.

(Tell me where it's mentioned explicitly that he wanted to kill Sadow. And from what I understand, Nadd went to Korriban after leaving Yavin 4, and then to Onderon.)

He's leagues above Malak, Revan (who might have studied Tulak Hords fighting technique), Nihilus, Sion and Kreia ?

(Absolutely. I know people will argue for Nihilus, but he's an anomaly.)

One thing- Nai, it does say ALL the jedi in the galaxy in the comics, over the planet of Yavin. I do recall that.

Originally posted by IKC
(Indeed, another KOTOR contradiction. Then again, a lot can happen in fifty years. The Jedi of the times of the Sith War had a Jedi problem to deal with, namely Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. If the Jedi were not tied with the Republic, why bother trying to convince the Republic senators at Qel-Droma's trial not to execute him? Since they're completely separate parties according to you, why would a Jedi's word count any more than a moisture farmer's?)

There is no contradiction here. The Jedi and the Republic were different organisations. They had their headquarters at the same place and they were working closely together but still the Jedi weren't part of the Republic forces. And this idea is not developed by KotoR it's part of the TOTJ comics as well as of the POTF Sourcebook.

During the Ruusan reformation the Jedi abandoned their battle armour, renounced their military ranks and organisation, disbanded their armies and placed themselves under the command of the Republic (the Supreme Chancellor and the Judicial Department). Before that the Jedi had their own armies seperated from the Republics Army / Navy troops and weren't under the command of the Republic.



This is nothing more than speculation. As I said: As far as we know he first conquered Iziz and while already ruling over the city he defeated the Beast Riders using Sith magic.
Actually: What do you think he did ? Walk around right before the walls of Iziz and wait for the Beast Riders to defeat them and then walk into the city being the new hero ?



a)
You know that the TOTJ comics and the Jedi Academy trilogy are written by the same author (Kevin J. Anderson) who basically invented Exar Kun ?

b)
In the Jedi Academy trilogy it says "hundreds of Jedi Knights" which might be the people left after the war against Kun and the Krath.

c)
Exar Kun survived ? Eh ? I was always under the impression that only his spirit was left in the temples meaning Kun actually died in the process.



As I said: TOTJ and the Jedi Academy trilogy are written by the same author and when he explains it like that in the Jedi Academy trilogy it doesn't matter if it's shown in the comics. Same author - same story - his interpretation of the powers of the character he invented. No use to argue against that.



Exar Kun still used the power of the temples on Yavin 4 and thereby powered up his spirit (again told in the Jedi Academy trilogy). Just think about the fact that Kun could directly influence events and do things 4,000 years after his death where Ragnos (who's arguably the most powerful Sith ever) couldn't do the same 1,000 years after his death and got pretty much pwned in spirit form by a Padawan.



What the hell ? How would Ommin be dependant on Nadd for power ? Nadd is a spirit and while he gives orders to Ommin, Ommin was still using his own force powers and not Nadd's. And of course Nadd's power is greater than Ommins - he instakilled Ommin even though he was only a spirit. And may I remind you that Exar Kun wasn't able to defeat Nadd's spirit before he found the Sith amulett boosting his force powers. So Nadd's spirit was more powerful than Exar - doesn't look like Nadd could only "own" his descendants.



Again. What did you think he did to gain control over Iziz ? He must have impressed the people somehow and having a look at Nadd's personality he most likely did it with kicking some people badly. Or do you think he just went into the city used Sith lightning or force choke on Random Citizen X and boom he was the king ?



So the Krath did only assassinate Arca because he's the biggest thread there (being the best in battle meditation he must have some high amount of force knowledge / force powers) and they ignored all other "threats" present because of what ?



Oh great. Now you want to tell me that Sadow didn't teach everything to Nadd but has written down anything he knew for Exar ? Nice joke. Exar Kun visited Korriban after Nadd so whatever Nadd found there was no longer present (for some secrets only Nadd might have known them and never taught Exar and for artifacts Nadd found there: they were on Onderon) and he would have found nothing in Nadd's tomb that Nadd himself didn't leave there. So still Nadd had more artifacts / knowledge than Exar.



He can make his staff able to deflect lightsaber hits. Can he cut somebody down with it ? Hardly...



Nadd was a Sith. Overpowering the master is the goal of the entire Sith philosophy. Unfortunately I don't have the comics at hand but it's clearly said that Nadd wanted to challenge Sadow so why would he leave Yavin 4 without having tried it ?



I've seen that peope argued that Revan can take him (because Revan had an entire world filled with Sith informations back from the days of the true Sith Empire), Malak was his apprentice, Kreia is capable of killing 3 Jedi Masters at once with a hand movement (have we ever seen Kun doing something like that ?) and Nihilus would simply drain Kun. Still Kun is leagues above them ?

Pretty much, though I imagine he had already established himself as a great figure in Iziz public life by "showing off" his power. Defeating the Beast Riders would have only solidified his position and increased public support for his rule. Your last statement is absolutely not my position, and by saying what you said before you support my actual position.

I stated that Nadd did not conquer Iziz, that he took it over by impressing and protecting its inhabitants with his power and promising more of it to them.



Yes, and TOTJ was written afterwards and concerns the life of Exar Kun, making it a better source than what one knew post-ROTJ.



Again, the Jedi Academy trilogy is nullified. Tens of thousands of Jedi, all of the Jedi in the galaxy, appeared above Yavin 4 to defeat Exar Kun. Not many Jedi were killed in the Sith War, which was not so much a war as it was a few spectacular acts of terrorism. Most of the Jedi killed were the old masters assassinated by Kun's converts and Kun himself. Read Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War.



He survived inasmuch as he had the Massassi sacrifice themselves to release his spirit to run rampant throughout the galaxy. Nobody killed him. Read the comics. The victory the Jedi won that day was to confine Kun to Yavin 4, specifically the temples.



For one, Ragnos is assumed to be the most powerful Sith. I made what I believe to be a good proposal elsewhere suggesting we overestimate him. And he was dead for far longer than 1,000 years at the time of JA.



For one, Ommin's dependent on Nadd for power because Nadd is the source of the dark side on Onderon. As well, he's the only one with the knowledge to teach its techniques. To reiterate, Nadd killed a puppet of his, a puppet that most likely was not expecting such a betrayal.

And it's ridiculous to compare the Exar Kun that Nadd knew to what we term the "Uber-Kun," who is exponentially more powerful at the end of the Sith War. That power is not entirely due to Sadow's amulet, which Kun wore. Before he embraced the Dark Side completely he was very weak. Even after he did so, he was only an equal to Ulic Qel-Droma, but he could still defeat Nadd's spirit with ease. However, after the months passed and Sith War commenced, Exar Kun's power rose much higher than Ulic's could ever reach. This is why Kun would be more than a match for the living Nadd.



I believe I already stated this. The Krath learned what they knew because of Freedon Nadd. Nadd hated Arca. Thus, the Krath hated Arca. The Krath did not ignore other threats, but they succeeded at their attempt to kill Arca.



Incorrect. Nadd couldn't even come close to Sadow's real knowledge, alchemical devices, and ship. Why? Because all of it was protected by a monstrosity that Sadow had created which Exar Kun killed. Even though Nadd went to Korriban first, Kun went to Nadd's tomb and took the scrolls and other artifacts Nadd possessed. Nadd had nowhere near the amount of artifacts and knowledge Exar had, especially when you take into account the spoils Kun gained from Ossus.



Obviously he thought he could defeat him with it, because Vodo deliberately confronted Exar in the Senate with the intent to stop him.



You're making assumptions. Nadd knew he'd never be more than an acolyte in the Sith order, that's why he left to create his own empire starting at Onderon. Nadd was never to be the Dark Lord.



I've seen people argue that suited Vader could take Yoda. Kun's knowledge and power far surpass everyone you've mentioned. The only one to come close in knowledge is maybe Kreia, but he overwhelms her in power. Kun is leagues above all of them. And, like I said, Nihilus is an anomaly.

You know, I forgot something:

Yes we have. Exar Kun killed Odan-Urr on Ossus (The Jedi planet) with a "hand movement." Odan-Urr would have trashed all three of the masters Kreia had killed easily, given he's even older than Vodo Baas (was alive during the time of Naga Sadow) and can blind people to the force instantaneously (as he tried to do to Kun, but failed).

I mention that Exar killed him on Ossus because merely being the Dark Lord of the Sith on that planet is a hell of a feat in itself. But killing a Jedi Master with the Force and still remaining undetected? Kun's soon-to-be-converts (Jedi Knights themselves) came into the room moments after Kun killed Odan-Urr, yet Kun convinced them he died of old age and declared Kun a Jedi Master. That's a testament to Kun's skill.

That's beside the point. The conclusion is, Exar Kun can instakill.

Oh. You "imagine" something and therefore it must be true ? Nice try.



So you're trying to tell me that something which was explained in detail in the books never happened because it's not shown in the comics despite the fact that both things are coming from the same author and the comics were written later ? I don't see any logic in that.



I pretty much don't care if there were "hundreds" or "thousands" of Jedi Knights above Yavin 4. The point was that Exar needed the temples and a Sith Ritual to drain the lifeforce of the Massasi to remain "alive" as a spirit while Nadd did the very same thing without having the temples and without draining people's lifeforce.
And despite the fact that Exar used the power of the templen when he was a spirit, Nadd's spirit still seemed to be more impressive.



Nadd was the source for Dark Side knowledge on Onderon but how does that make Ommin a puppet of Nadd ? That's like saying that every Sith apprentice was only a puppet of his master.



That's randomly drawing conclusions.
First: Exar and Ulic at the point of their duel were both very powerful beings. Vodo thought of Exar being one of the best or even the best students he had and Ulic was naturally gifted with the force and in lightsaber combat.
If it takes that skill level (which would be on par or above people like Dooku or Mace Windu) to defeat Nadd's ionized air particles than Nadd's spirit must have been very powerful and Nadd himself would even have been more powerful.



What the hell have Sadow's ship an alchemical devices to do with knowledge ? Nadd was trained by the living Sadow at a time when Sadow might not even have created the monstrosity to guard his ship or achemical devices. And we know that by far not everything Nadd had from Korriban was stored in Nadd's tomb since we have many things on Onderon that were used by his descendants.
So basically Exar (just talking about knowledge) had just the things he learned from Nadd himself (which is most likely not everything Nadd himself knew) and things he stole from Ossus (the place where Nadd was trained first to become a Jedi Knight if I may remind you). And that should give him far more knowledge than Nadd had ? Very questionable...



Obviously they had fought before and Vodo knew that he wasn't able to defeat Exar with it.



Nadd thought he could never be more than an acolyte because he knew that their could only be a single Dark Lord at any time meaning if he wasn't able to defeat Sadow (and he most likely tried to do so) that would have given him the perfect reason to go to Onderon and install his own Sith Empire there because he knew that he couldn't be the Dark Lord as long as Sadow was alive on Yavin 4.



Now you're the one making assumptions. Revan had an entire planet filled with knowledge by the ancient Sith Lords (Malachor V) and we know that he was gifted with some huge amount of potential. So he actually could be more powerful than Exar. Same counts for Kreia.



Revan and Kreia have shown very similar powers compared to Kun's so I pretty much doubt that he's leagues above them. And he's definately not leagues above Nadd. A living Nadd might most likely be able to overwhelm him with force powers or in lightsaber combat. And having a look at the fight and the teams that mean:

Exar = or > Revan
Kreia < or = or > Revan
Nadd > Kreia
Nadd = or > Exar

The only thing that I personally think is sure is that Exar alone wouldn't be able to take Nadd so the only possible scenario for Kreia and Exar winning is when Kreia defeats Revan and teams up with Exar to defeat Nadd. Kreia won't most likely be able to take Revan with force powers and she surely can't take him with a lightsaber. So for me the thing that will most likely happen is Revan defeating Kreia and therefore leaving Kun vs Nadd and Revan and I don't think that he can take that.

Cute. Seize on a single word I chose and attempt to dismiss everything I wrote.



Given that the TOTJ source is literally about the event in question while the JA source only references the event, the TOTJ source is more reliable.



If you didn't care, why did you try to belittle Exar's power by claiming it was hundreds? Two, you're completely off-base. Exar Kun was not dead or dying. He used the Sith ritual to release his spirit from his body and run throughout the cosmos. He did not need the temples to drain the Massassi, the Massassi killed themselves for him. All he needed was the focusing chamber to use the power of their sacrifices to release him. Nadd died to become a spirit. Exar released himself willingly without death.



I could take a page from you and seize upon the word "seemed" and use it to completely dismiss everything you wrote, but I won't.

Your premise is ridiculous. Nadd was only dead for four hundred years and therefore had much of his power remaining. Not to mention that everywhere he operated was a focus of the Dark Side (Onderon, Yavin, Korriban). And you think that Nadd did not need these places and the dark side energies to do the things he could do as a spirit?



Nadd's ultimate goal was to return to the physical world. Thus, it would be ridiculous for Nadd to teach his descendent everything he knows because if his descendent became powerful enough he could simply ignore Nadd. Nadd controlled Ommin from beyond the grave, plain and simple.



Yes, and it was some months before Exar and Ulic's duel that he destroyed Freedon Nadd, when Exar was much weaker. From TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith

This is just as Exar Kun discovered Naga Sadow's trove of knowledge, ship, and alchemical equipment. It is still quite a bit of time between that point and the point at which he duels Qel-Droma. Thus, it did not take an extraordinarily powerful being to defeat Nadd, only one with the will and Dark Side energy to do so.



You're completely off-base again. What makes you think that Kun did not also find scrolls and other tomes in Sadow's trove detailing Sith magic? Read Dark Lords of the Sith again, because it's explicitly mentioned that he does. Nadd was trained in the dark side by Sadow, but Nadd knew of the monstrosity Sadow had created when he led Kun to Yavin and thus would not have been able to access Sadow's trove of knowledge.

By the way, why wouldn't most of Nadd's artifacts and scrolls from Korriban be in his tomb when Arca constructed Nadd's new tomb on Dxun and had his remains, along with the King and Queen's, moved there along with scrolls and artifacts?



Absolutely not. For one, he had all of the scrolls and devices that Sadow possessed at Yavin 4 (already more than Nadd could ever hope for or gain access to). Second, he had knowledge taken from Nadd's tomb and Korriban. Third, he had priceless artifacts and knowledge from Ossus, much of which was only available to the oldest masters of the Jedi Order. Nadd could never access what Exar stole, neither on Yavin nor on Ossus. Exar learned more than Nadd, plain and simple.



Alright then. So Vodo enters the Senate and confronts Exar Kun willingly knowing that he will die. This, I remind you, is after Vodo reflects on Dantooine about how a confrontation with Kun is his battle. Tell me how that makes sense.



You're a little delusional here. Nadd knew he'd never be the Dark Lord, because Sadow wasn't even the Dark Lord and had not been for centuries. If you'll remember, Ludo Kressh usurped the throne after Sadow's ill-conceived attack against the Republic. Afterwards, Sadow was a wanted man both by the Sith remnants and the Republic. That is why he and his followers fled to Yavin 4. Sadow was not the Dark Lord when Nadd found him, thus your paragraph is moot.



Hardly. You assume that since Revan had a border world in which he put Sith knowledge (filled with knowledge? Alright then, show me a screenshot of all this knowledge, because the only thing there was an academy that was recently constructed) and that he was gifted with large potential - for his time - that he could beat the declared Dark Lord of the Sith, who had far more knowledge both from Jedi and Sith than Revan could ever hope for? I'll reiterate: It took all of the Jedi in the galaxy to stop Exar Kun.



Show me where Revan and Kreia have displayed powers on the level of Exar Kun. Show me where they have practiced alchemy, have used Sith magic, or have been declared the Lord of the Sith. Indeed, show me where they have invented a unique style of lightsaber combat that they took to the grave which was able to overwhelm the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order in seconds. Nadd, as I've argued, is inferior to Kun. Not by far, but enough to ensure Kun's victory in most cases.