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I was wondering what you think the definitions of atonement and forgiveness are. For me it seems that atonement is a personal, internal act, where as forgiveness is an external action..as in other people can forgive you but only you can find that at one ness that atoneing for something gives..if that makes sense..

..also whether anyone can truly atone for their bad deeds..and does that cancel out the bad..

Originally posted by Fianna
I was wondering what you think the definitions of atonement and forgiveness are. For me it seems that atonement is a personal, internal act, where as forgiveness is an external action..as in other people can forgive you but only you can find that at one ness that atoneing for something gives..if that makes sense..

..also whether anyone can truly atone for their bad deeds..and does that cancel out the bad..

It's complex, because if you are truly remoreseful for an act, then you not only want the forgiveness of the other, but also, you need to be able to forgive yourself.

As far as atonement is concerned, sometimes the act of apologizing is all someone needs, while other times, atonement can only be completed when the person who was wronged deems your acts of contrition worthy in their eyes.

Atonement IS possible because if you accept that something has happened or accept that a bad deed has been done, it can be a lot easier to move on from it.

Forgiveness is harder I believe, because acts between people change things. So even forgiveness can't erase that. Where as self-forgiveness is easier to progress from rather than continually having to face it.

-AC

Originally posted by DaCanadianMoose
Absolutely. It doesn't cost anyone anything (except in some cases, pride) to say "I'm sorry". It's like an out clause we have...being able to feel remorse and remove ourselves from eternal blame, by simply showing contrition.

Yes, if you let go of attachments and care about others, saying "I'm sorry" is a simple thing, but you will still face the consequences of you actions.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am a Buddhist and do not believe in forgiveness. I

Seems these Buddhists believe in forgiveness.
'


http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/forgiveness.htm

As do these Buddhists here:
http://Buddhism.kalachakranet.org/Meditations/love_forgiveness_meditation.html

Are you a specific kind of Buddhist, or are you just unfamiliar with what you practice?

KharmaDog

So!?

Buddhists are human and have many beliefs. This is true also with Christianity. Example: conceder the differences between Catholics and Morons.

Originally posted by Fianna
I was wondering what you think the definitions of atonement and forgiveness are. For me it seems that atonement is a personal, internal act, where as forgiveness is an external action..as in other people can forgive you but only you can find that at one ness that atoneing for something gives..if that makes sense..

..also whether anyone can truly atone for their bad deeds..and does that cancel out the bad..

I like your definitions and do believe one can atone for their bad deeds. It is one of those things which define being human. Animals may appear to atone/forgive, but they really don't have the self-awareness to remember, to self-evaluate and/or lament like humans do.

Does it cancel out the bad?...depends, I feel, on a lot of factors, including what you mean by "cancel out." In any event, the effectiveness of atonement and forgiveness is directly proportional, so to speak, to one's self-honesty and the ability to "move on," which may or may not include making amends.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So!?

Buddhists are human and have many beliefs. This is true also with Christianity. Example: conceder the differences between Catholics and Morons.

I assume you meant Mormons, but morons could be applicable too in some cases.

So you are saying that Buddhism has different denominations?

Christianity does have different denominations, but the basic concept behind the belief structure is the same, just practiced differently.

I also remember Buddhist prayers of forgiveness. So what denomination of Buddhist are you, or are you a person who just picked up the religion as opposed to being instructed in it's beliefs and concepts?

Originally posted by Mindship
I like your definitions and do believe one can atone for their bad deeds. It is one of those things which define being human. Animals may appear to atone/forgive, but they really don't have the self-awareness to remember, to self-evaluate and/or lament like humans do.

Does it cancel out the bad?...depends, I feel, on a lot of factors, including what you mean by "cancel out." In any event, the effectiveness of atonement and forgiveness is directly proportional, so to speak, to one's self-honesty and the ability to "move on," which may or may not include making amends.

True...I think that atonement is one of the hardness states to achieve..to be at one with yourself after doing something that you feel you need to atone for is hard, but as you say fundmentally human...

By cancelling out I mean, say with the First World War..can the individual acts of kindness cancel out, or atone for the overall 'badness' of war? ..we were discussing this in English class, and I wasn't sure..but sometimes, it's the little things that count, that can make it easier for people to forgive others if they remember that one small thing that was done for them..

..not sure if this is making sense...

Originally posted by KharmaDog
I assume you meant Mormons, but morons could be applicable too in some cases.

So you are saying that Buddhism has different denominations?

Christianity does have different denominations, but the basic concept behind the belief structure is the same, just practiced differently.

I also remember Buddhist prayers of forgiveness. So what denomination of Buddhist are you, or are you a person who just picked up the religion as opposed to being instructed in it's beliefs and concepts?

I apologize to any Mormons that my have be offended by my mistake. How is that for forgiveness?

I believe in the common forgiveness, but what I don't believe in is forgiveness from a non-existent god.

To answer your question; yes, I am a Nichiren Buddhist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

I am a Buddhist and do not believe in forgiveness.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I believe in the common forgiveness, but what I don't believe in is forgiveness from a non-existent god.

The belief of a diety was not an issue, and your first statement was absolute. I think you may want to re-evaluate your belief system so you know what you believe. Or at least familiarize yourself with it so as not to completely contradict yourself.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To answer your question; yes, I am a Nichiren Buddhist.

Then I am sure that you are aware of the story of King Calamityand King Brahamadatta.

Resentment cannot be satisfied by resentment. Hatred cannot be overcome by hatred. It can only by removed by forgiving.

I would think that you would be aware of such a statement being a devout Nichiren Buddhist.

At the end of the day, the only person you have to answer to yourself is you. You know what is good and bad, so you bet anyone else judging you knows the same damn thing!

Originally posted by idowhatiamtold
At the end of the day, the only person you have to answer to yourself is you.

That would be true if we lived in a lawless and antisocial society, or if one lived isolated unto themselves.

As we live in structured social groups with laws governing behaviours and cultural morals imbued within us, it is apparent that we all have more than just ourselves to answer to when concerning our actions whether it be at the beginning or the end of the day..

Originally posted by KharmaDog
The belief of a diety was not an issue...

Really?

Originally posted by Fianna
...By cancelling out I mean, say with the First World War..can the individual acts of kindness cancel out, or atone for the overall 'badness' of war? ...sometimes, it's the little things that count, that can make it easier for people to forgive others if they remember that one small thing that was done for them...

I think you've answered your own question: "...easier for people to forgive others if they remember that one small thing that was done for them...

Perhaps it's like "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Originally posted by Fianna
..also whether anyone can truly atone for their bad deeds..and does that cancel out the bad..

What I was trying to say was; you can not cancel out the bad.