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KotOR Mandalorians versus these two.

What happens?

Well the CIS was damn powerful, with their droid army's they would not be weak. Funny however is that they were beaten or as good as beaten by a 1.2 million clones.

Technology is on their side, however a trade federation ship isn't that superior to a Kotor ship so I don't think it will give them the edge they need. No they are screwed. If 1.2 million clones lead by a few Jedi and supported by a few weak planeterial defense army's can destroy the CIS then the Mandelorians sure as hell can. Especially when you look at the tactics these army's used. Kashyyyk... What army would dig itself in and then start a frontal charge at an incoming greater and more powerful army. And actually win...

The CIS is screwed and the Republic has 1.2 clones... 1.2 million... Thats nothing. The clones aren't going to be as good as Mandelorians either. The Mandelorians would destroy them. The republic and CIS technology isn't good enough their military skills suck, the Mandelorians should be able to walk right over them.

How many Mandalorians were there?

This is PT Republic, for those who haven't guessed.

As for the Mandalorians, I would say trillions of Mandalorians.

The Mandalorians take the victory on the ground, but get wasted in space.

I just thought of this, but it's to late to edit.

The Republic had 1,200,000 clones, but they had other large amounts of drafted troopers. General Slayke, for example was able to rally an army of 50,000 trained soliders in only a few months. This was without the support of the Senate too.


And Traya, logistically speaking, it is nearly impossible for the Mandalorians to have anywhere near even a single trillion Troopers.

If 1 trillion Mandalorians is the number, then they take this with overkill.

1.2 Million Clones were able to wage a full-scale galactic war and manage to be a worthy advsersary for the CIS. Mandalorians would stomp the Clones with half of their forces and tackle the CIS with the rest.

There were trillions of Mandalorians pre KOTOR times?!?!

I find that number crazy, but it might be true.

It's not. Believe me, logistically, it would be very strange if it was more than a few dozen million.

Well, considering they lived on Dxun and perhaps a few past-the-rim colonies, it could well be billions, Glentract. I would be neccessarily surprised if it was lower, but considering that a planet of sentients can number in the millions and even a portion of those are militant and in the service... you see where I'm going with this. Now, I don't recall if KOTOR ever gave mention to the Mandalorians having beyond the rim colonies (Though they were spoken of as coming from unexplored space) but if they do, there's a good bet they had billions of troops at least.

But I doubt that all of them were soldiers. But still that is a lot of soldiers. If the Republic and CIS keeps this to a space war they might have a chance.

They don't have nearly as many planets as the Republic or CIS to draw troops from. THey also have to have people who are scientist to make their weapons, and people who do other jobs that are civilian. In KOTOR we saw soliders doing jobs like fixing stuff, but that was because the Mandalorians as a people were nearly gone and had no one to spare.

In that case, the Mandalorians wipe the floor with the droids and their cloned brethren, the Mandalorians are way to skilled and if they have those kinds of numbers then they can take over a planet and keep it. The only question was weather they had the man power to keep men positioned throughout the galaxy, and with billions, they do.

P.S.-What is the deal with Mandalorian women?...Where are they?

That's true. I'm not in any way saying the Mandalorians have this battle, cuz I don't think they do. But I am saying they could have fielded more than a few million troops easily if they did have colonies beyond the Outer Rim, which I believe is implied in game.

Your all overlooking the fact that a single Mandalorian trooper is worth at least five clones when it comes to skill. The Mandalorians lived for war and battle...hell its all they ever did.

Originally posted by Veneficus
Your all overlooking the fact that a single Mandalorian trooper is worth at least five clones when it comes to skill. The Mandalorians lived for war and battle...hell its all they ever did.

I don't agree. The Clones lived for war and battle too. Plus, the Clones are replicas of a MANDALORE.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't agree. The Clones lived for war and battle too. Plus, the Clones are replicas of a MANDALORE.

The Clones lived for war and battle yes this is true. But the whole replica thing? SO WHAT? If someone cloned me would my double be a skilled actor just becuase I have taken 5 drama classes? The answer is....NO. And the clones were replicas of Jango not Mandalore.

And Jango was arguably not even Mandalorian.

Clones and battle droids were made for battle. Don't forget Destroyer Droids with shields that'll come in handy plus they have people building cruisers and weapons for the Republic and CIS all the time.

But the clones didn't have nearly as much training, and it wasn't as intense as a standard Mandalorians training was.

Originally posted by Ianus
And Jango was arguably not even Mandalorian.

How does that work? Go look at SW.com, Mandalorians are humans. They aren't a seperate species. Jango was Mandalore since he was raised and trained by them(pretty much the only requirement to becoming one) and Kreia made a reference to him being a Mandalore in KOTOR 2(something along the lines of "broken shell slain to easily by a Jedi".

Originally posted by jollyjim311
But the clones didn't have nearly as much training, and it wasn't as intense as a standard Mandalorians training was.

Proof?

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
Clones and battle droids were made for battle. Don't forget Destroyer Droids with shields that'll come in handy plus they have people building cruisers and weapons for the Republic and CIS all the time.

One well thrown ion grenade the take out an entire group of Droidekas. Also droids are inferior to a human because humans can reason in ways droids cannot.

Doesn't the Republic gets their Jedi? That'll help out a lot for the war.

It doesn't help all that much. PT Jedi are mainly diplomats and horrible fighters. Their numbers would also be stretched way thinner than fighting against the CIS. You also have a way tougher opponent, a Mandalorian warrior bred to fight, not from machines and simulations, but from near-death experiences and real-life fights.

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
Doesn't the Republic gets their Jedi? That'll help out a lot for the war.

10,000 untested and inexperied Jedi against the battle hardened Mandalorians? Revan and his Jedi defeated the Mandalorians becuase.

1. Revan was one of the most brilliant srategiests in history and his tactics were better than that of the Mandalorians.

2. The KOTOR era Jedi were all battle hardened and focused more on combat that the PT era Jedi.

Yes, the Republic also gets their Jedi(I think).

Like I said before, remember that the Rouge General Slayke was able to rally 50,000 trained troops in about two months. If the Republic had put all their resouces into doing the same thing, they could have a much larger army than 1,200,000.

General Grievous is a freaky geniues. He led his army into victory after victory under near impossible odds and he's trained for combat for his race is a warrior race.

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
General Grievous is a freaky geniues. He led his army into victory after victory under near impossible odds and he's trained for combat for his race is a warrior race.

...your point being? Grevious does not own up to Revan in tactics.

Originally posted by Veneficus
10,000 untested and inexperied Jedi against the battle hardened Mandalorians? Revan and his Jedi defeated the Mandalorians becuase.

1. Revan was one of the most brilliant srategiests in history and his tactics were better than that of the Mandalorians.

GG was a great General too. There are several Generals rivaling Revan in tactical prowless.

Originally posted by Veneficus
2. The KOTOR era Jedi were all battle hardened and focused more on combat that the PT era Jedi.

I don't see how this is so. There really is no proof of this since most of the Jedi that had fought in the only notable war near that time(The Great Sith War) were dead or near dead.

The most powerful Jedi Guardian also hadn't even been in any real wars. Shows a lot about the power of the surviving veterans.

KOTOR Republic was able to win because:

- Strategies of Revan and Malak
- Strength and abilities of the Jedi of that time period
- Way more unified Republic

The Republic systems and CIS systems have more then the Mandalorians and if they put their resources into gathering people they can have a greater army. And GG doesn't have to stand up to Revan's military level as long as he gets a victory.

Originally posted by Veneficus
...your point being? Grevious does not own up to Revan in tactics.

Prove Revan was better in tactics then PT Generals. All we have are some quotes, which I may remind you could possibly be infected with hyperbole.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Proof?

The Clones had like ten years of training with computer simulations that couldn't actually hurt them.

And?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Prove Revan was better in tactics then PT Generals. All we have are some quotes, which I may remind you could possibly be infected with hyperbole.

I need to stop getting involved in these godamn debates...I always loose.

Anyways as for Revan's skill with tactics we have more than a few quotes. Canderous calls Revan a genius on the field saying that his tactics defated the best of the Mandlorians. Master Dorak calls Revan a brilliant tactition. Brianna seems to be in awe of Revan's tactics. Just about everyone who talks about Revan mentions one thing or another about how he is such a brilliant stategist.

And from that time to PT, that's thousands of years, a lot can change since then.

Why don't you explain why PT Generals can compete even remotely with Revan?

Revan not only mastered the art of war, but learned how to maximize the victory of a war, leaving enemy industries, like factories, intact so he wouldn't have to start over when he won. He was a genius and probably the best strategest has and ever would see.

Then why is he never mentioned in the PT?

Jesus, Glentract... You suddenly act like big dog around here.

Not only did Revan crush his enemies with his tactics, he recruited them. Revan was a definite genious.

Originally posted by Se7in
Why don't you explain why PT Generals can compete even remotely with Revan?

Revan not only mastered the art of war, but learned how to maximize the victory of a war, leaving enemy industries, like factories, intact so he wouldn't have to start over when he won. He was a genius and probably the best strategest has and ever would see.

Because the burden of proof is on you to prove that he is good. Then, I must prove why others can compete with him.

Also, name a single brilliant strategist that Revan went against.

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
And?

The Mandalorians had real Wars and battle circles and trained for longer. Jeez, what do you want from me, exact Mandalorian battle drills? Well sorry I can't provide them, damn.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Because the burden of proof is on you to prove that he is good. Then, I must prove why others can compete with him.

Also, name a single brilliant strategist that Revan went against.

Like I said... you suddenly act like this intellectual debating heavy, Glentract, and you just come off as a prick. Please... don't do that.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
The Mandalorians had real Wars and battle circles and trained for longer. Jeez, what do you want from me, exact Mandalorian battle drills? Well sorry I can't provide them, damn.

Name some of these real wars. The only known war was The Great Sith War, which most Mandalorians that fought in it would be dead. The battle circle is a sparring arena, Clones did the same thing, I believe.

Clones also had things such as flash learning to help them learn things that were more simplistic at high speed.

Originally posted by Ianus
Like I said... you suddenly act like this intellectual debating heavy, Glentract, and you just come off as a prick. Please... don't do that.

Sorry. I won a debate at school today and am feeling a bit overconfident. I'm leaving in a little while anyway.

Well, I hate to be a prick in turn, but you are acting rather headstrong. While I realize I'm usually guilty of the same thing, you have to do it in moderation or risk pissing off everyone else. Like right now? I really don't wanna debate with you because work is driving me apeshit and you're being more anal than I'm able to contend with while answering phones.

Called Anal by Ianus? Crap, I need to go home and rethink my life.

lmao!

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
Then why is he never mentioned in the PT?
Do you really think that GL was going to include Revan into his movies?

Well, the Seperatists were defeated by a way numerically inferior enemy. The Clones won one war against droids and lost to a bunch of rebels. Mandalorians fought a worthy, both strategically and numerically, enemy and causes a major threat.

Originally posted by Se7in
PT Jedi are mainly diplomats and horrible fighters.

Horrible fighters ?
I start to hate the way the PT Jedi are treated like losers around here. Each of them is still capable of wasting dozens of droids / normal soldiers. We've seen a Padawan killing 5 or 6 Clone Troopers, we have seen Ki-Adi-Mundi getting betrayed, surprised and jumped by 6 Clone Troopers and still kill 2 of them. We have seen Yoda and Obi-Wan in ROTS defeating how many clones in front of the temple ? 10, 15, 20 ? If you consider informations given in the EU some of them have killed dozens or even hundreds of people in direct confrontation. And you call them horrible fighters ? What's a "good fighter" for you in this case ?

Back to the topic:
Revan took the Mandalorians with 1/3 of the KotoR time Republic forces and maybe 50 % of the Jedi present at this time.

Here we have the PT Republic with superior firepower and technology compared to KotoR time Republic (remember - the pride of the KotoR Rebulics navy was a ship which is 1/3 of the size of normal Star Destroyers), far more Jedi than Revan had and commanders that can act ruthless (e.g. Tarkin - we've seen that he's part of the Republic military already at the end of ROTS). Now add the CIS with basically infinite amounts of droids. And consider all outstanding individuals that belong to to the PT Republic and the CIS (quite some powerful Jedi, 2 Sith Lords, several Dark Jedi, Grievous and Durge) and throw in "Superweapons" like the Hovertank and the Dark Reaper.

The Mandalorians are pretty much pwned.

the latter two

Originally posted by Borbarad
Horrible fighters ?
I start to hate the way the PT Jedi are treated like losers around here. Each of them is still capable of wasting dozens of droids / normal soldiers. We've seen a Padawan killing 5 or 6 Clone Troopers, we have seen Ki-Adi-Mundi getting betrayed, surprised and jumped by 6 Clone Troopers and still kill 2 of them. We have seen Yoda and Obi-Wan in ROTS defeating how many clones in front of the temple ? 10, 15, 20 ? If you consider informations given in the EU some of them have killed dozens or even hundreds of people in direct confrontation. And you call them horrible fighters ? What's a "good fighter" for you in this case ?

Back to the topic:
Revan took the Mandalorians with 1/3 of the KotoR time Republic forces and maybe 50 % of the Jedi present at this time.

Here we have the PT Republic with superior firepower and technology compared to KotoR time Republic (remember - the pride of the KotoR Rebulics navy was a ship which is 1/3 of the size of normal Star Destroyers), far more Jedi than Revan had and commanders that can act ruthless (e.g. Tarkin - we've seen that he's part of the Republic military already at the end of ROTS). Now add the CIS with basically infinite amounts of droids. And consider all outstanding individuals that belong to to the PT Republic and the CIS (quite some powerful Jedi, 2 Sith Lords, several Dark Jedi, Grievous and Durge) and throw in "Superweapons" like the Hovertank and the Dark Reaper.

The Mandalorians are pretty much pwned.

An average CIS cruiser is only 200 meters bigger then a Republic ship from the Kotor times.. Who from all we have heard were not as good as the Mandelorian ships. But even if they were just as good it wouldn't really be much of a problem.

We have more skilled Mandelorians, the CIS isn't even a challenge when 1.2 million clones could destroy them. The Mandelorians could easily be in the billions of soldiers. They would slaughter the CIS. Yeah sure the Jedi will be a challenge, but the Jedi are bad generals at best and would get slaughtered by superior tactics weapons and great cruelty. The other side of the war? You are going to tell me they are somehow great?

They got beaten by 1.2 million clones lead by generals who don't even know what outflanking is. Let alone stand are able to do something like that succesfully.

Just look at the battle of Kashyyyk or Geonosis, both were terrible tactical battles and yet both were won. The Mandelorians have even greater troops and are far greater tacticians. The CIS and the Republic are as good as dead, unless one of their generals or sith lords is so great that he can kill entire army's alone...

Plus, the Mandalorians wouldn't have any ethical restrictions. Canderous pretty much says that any planet that was harbouring Republic agents was glassed.

The PT Republic has never fought any truly ferocious total war. The CIS were under the domination of the leader of the Republic. Palpatine would not have let Dooku curbstomp the Republic.

The Mandalorians would have no such restrictions, they would glass all of the Republic planets.

Not only that, the CIS would not be able to stand up to the Mandalorians too.

Mandalorians > Skimpy Battle Droids

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Plus, the Mandalorians wouldn't have any ethical restrictions. Canderous pretty much says that any planet that was harbouring Republic agents was glassed.

The PT Republic has never fought any truly ferocious total war. The CIS were under the domination of the leader of the Republic. Palpatine would not have let Dooku curbstomp the Republic.

Indeed, but would not those restrictions on total war be lifted when Palpatine faces an enemy that isn't his puppet? Do you remember what happened to Alderaan?

Technological advancement and the might of the CIS and Grand Army of the Republic outweighs a single civilization, no matter how warlike and skilled they were.

Everyone here makes it sound like PT Jedi have no training what so ever. They were basically defeat on Geonosis because they were out numbered like 200 to 20,000 maybe more. Let's see KOTOR Jedi do any better with such great numbers. 1,200,000 clones defeated the CIS? I'm pretty sure they made more clones in order to defend the many systems under the Republic plus the people in the Republic systems out number the Mandalorians.

Originally posted by IKC
Indeed, but would not those restrictions on total war be lifted when Palpatine faces an enemy that isn't his puppet? Do you remember what happened to Alderaan?

Technological advancement and the might of the CIS and Grand Army of the Republic outweighs a single civilization, no matter how warlike and skilled they were.

Hm, that was a post completely devoid of logic. We are not arguing whether or not the GE could win. Unless I am sorely mistaken, the Republic did not have the DS!

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
Everyone here makes it sound like PT Jedi have no training what so ever. They were basically defeat on Geonosis because they were out numbered like 200 to 20,000 maybe more. Let's see KOTOR Jedi do any better with such great numbers. 1,200,000 clones defeated the CIS? I'm pretty sure they made more clones in order to defend the many systems under the Republic plus the people in the Republic systems out number the Mandalorians.

So what? Are you trying to say that the civilians would fight against the Mandalorians? They would lose badly. You cannot compare elite military fighters to an indisciplined rabble.

Secondly, the Jedi on Geonosis were bad. Yes, they managed to mash up some Battle Droids, but it was their use of Niman that made them crap.

Oh and KotOR Jedi would have done a lot better in that situation.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Hm, that was a post completely devoid of logic. We are not arguing whether or not the GE could win. Unless I am sorely mistaken, the Republic did not have the DS!

That was cute how you attempted to demean me, but I wasn't arguing for the Empire either. However, given that Palpatine is the head of both sides of the Clone War, there's nothing stopping him from committing total war with these forces. The Death Star is irrelevant to what I said.

The outcome would remain the same for KOTOR Jedi or PT Jedi.

And it worked with America in the Revolutionary War. Trained British army vs. Untrained American army and who won that? It's amazing how well people can learn the art of war in short periods of time or do you not know about the Civil War or World War II? and don't say that has nothing to do here because it does. The Empire was the prime example of what the world would be like if Hitler won World War II.

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
The outcome would remain the same for KOTOR Jedi or PT Jedi.

And it worked with America in the Revolutionary War. Trained British army vs. Untrained American army and who won that? It's amazing how well people can learn the art of war in short periods of time or do you not know about the Civil War or World War II? and don't say that has nothing to do here because it does. The Empire was the prime example of what the world would be like if Hitler won World War II.

How well people can learn the art of war within short times? Without the French, the British would have won.

Anyway, why the example? I can't see the relevance.

The Frence played a small role in the outcome on the war. They came very late into it and it just basically forced Britian to surrender.
WWII:
America gathered more then 10 million people to fight the war and they all had little training and yet they whipped out German and Japanese forces

Civil War:
The Union gathered 500,000 soldiers and gave them short training periods and they defeated the CSA.

Now it will take longer for the Mand. to reach planets giving the Republic and CIS plenty of time to gather aid and create a well trained army.

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
The Frence played a small role in the outcome on the war. They came very late into it and it just basically forced Britian to surrender.
WWII:
America gathered more then 10 million people to fight the war and they all had little training and yet they whipped out German and Japanese forces

Civil War:
The Union gathered 500,000 soldiers and gave them short training periods and they defeated the CSA.

Now it will take longer for the Mand. to reach planets giving the Republic and CIS plenty of time to gather aid and create a well trained army.

What the hell? Clones take years to mature. Not only that, why the hell would it take the Mandalorians ages to get anywhere? You make it sound like they have extremely slow ships.

And the Republic has Wookies which is a warrior race by themselves. And the CIS has the Kaleesh which is another warrior race and the Huk which the Republic helped. Not every planet is at peace. The Republic had dozens (maybe hundreds) of small wars which gave planets powerful armies.

And? The Mandalorians are a warrior race.

Not only that, on Malachor V where they were outnumbered five to one, facing the tactical genius of Revan and cornered, the Republic still nearly lost the battle.

The Mandalorians also showed tactical adeptitude themselves, they launched a three pronged attack on the Republic with impeccable timing, which according to Canderous, split the Republic in two.

The Republic has come a new long way since then. And Greivous, who spent his entire life in wars, would be able to dealthe Mandalorians terrible blows with his experience on the battle field. You got Clones, Droids, Wookies, Huks, Kaleeshs, and a bunch of people vs. Mandalorians. Plus all the others races that helped the Republic and CIS I didn't mention.

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
The Republic has come a new long way since then. And Greivous, who spent his entire life in wars, would be able to dealthe Mandalorians terrible blows with his experience on the battle field. You got Clones, Droids, Wookies, Huks, Kaleeshs, and a bunch of people vs. Mandalorians. Plus all the others races that helped the Republic and CIS I didn't mention.

A long way? The KotOR era Republic was quite militarised compared to the PT Republic. Oh, and the Republic then had "a bunch of people" too, but until Revan entered the conflict, they were bulldozing the Republic.

Grievous spent his entire time in wars? True, but so did the Mandalorians.

And so are the Kaleeshs, Huks, and Wookies. And them alone are in the millions (together or maybe even separte since we don't really know the numbers of Kaleeshs and Huks but the CIS and Republic did everything possible to aid them and that's saying something)

What I'm trying to say is that the KotOR Republic had them on their side as well, but they were still beaten.

Can you prove that they were?

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Unless I am sorely mistaken, the Republic did not have the DS!

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Tarkin did already have the Death Star Prototype by the end of ROTS as we can see the first Death Star being built at the end of ROTS.


Now, there are a few things that the Mandalorians WILL lose it. Namely, all formes of space combat.

Now, let me tell you why.

First, lets compare ship length.

The Mandalorian and Republic ships must be relatively equal because the Republic was able to wage a war against them effectively.

The most powerful Sith Military ship was 600 meters long(Levithan). This ship was more powerful than most, if not all Republic ships. Even one of the earliest PT Republic ships was 752 meters long(Acclamator).

Remember, this is ship length, not mass, which will be far more in the Republics favor, but is much more complicated.

Now, the Leviathan was equipped with 20 quadlasers, 2 tractor beam projectors, 4 gravity well projectors, and 4 turbolasers.

Sounds impressive, but lets compare it to one of the weaker Republic Capital Ships.

12 quadturbolasers, 24 laser canons, and 4 missle tubes.

The Leviathan has more regular lasers, but it lacks missles and has far fewer turbolasers.

We also know that KOTOR-era turbolasers are weaker than PT-era ships because the Acclamator was the first ship capable of commiting base-delta-zero on it's own. In KOTOR it takes an entire fleet to destroy every building over two stories high; a job that is dozens of times easier than BDZ.

THe Leviathan also carries two squadrons of star fighters. This is more than the Acclamator, but Sith Star Fighters lack torpedos which is the only way for a starfighter to do real damage to a capital ship.

Overall, the Acclamator will rip the Leviathan apart. The Leviathan is a FLAGSHIP, while there were dozens of Acclamators. REmember that the Acclamator is far from the most powerful Republic ship too.

What about the dreaded Mandalorian Basalisks?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
What about the dreaded Mandalorian Basalisks?

The point is that the KOTOR-era Republic ships, which I have shown to be far weaker than PT-era ships, were able to effectively fight against and defeat the Basilisk.

Republic owns in star combat.

Originally posted by Fishy
An average CIS cruiser is only 200 meters bigger then a Republic ship from the Kotor times.. Who from all we have heard were not as good as the Mandelorian ships. But even if they were just as good it wouldn't really be much of a problem.

And the Republic ships are twice as big as the ships in KotoR times and if you have a look at the starting sequence of ROTS you can see one of the capital ship making one CIS cruiser explode with a single shot (a blue beam that seems to be more powerful than the normal turbolasers).



First off: The CIS was (indirectly) under the control of the same person that did control the Republic. The CIS didn't have the intention to win so you can't say that 1.2 million clones could destroy them. And even if the CIS wanted to win - they didn't only have 1.2 million clones but 10,000 Jedi against them. What numbers of people did Revan command when he owned the Mandalorians ?



Or they could only be a million or 100,000 or 10,000 of them. We don't know. But seing that in KotoR times 1/3 of the Republic forces and maybe 50 % of the Jedi were enough to defeat them I don't think there were that many.



You think that 1.2 million clone troopers (being exact physical copies of Jango Fett) including ARCtroopers that were personally trained by Jango Fett a threat ?
Superior tactics ? May I remind you that Grievous tactics are said to be "perfect" and may I remind you that when it comes to "cruelty" the Sith and Dark Jedi of the CIS (and Grievous as well) won't be behind the Mandalorians ?
And superior weapons ? Yeah...right...4000 years of technical development and the mandalorians have superior weapons. Not even talking about things like the Dark Reaper, Hovertanks and spaceships that will totally screw them.



They lost on purpose.



Let me see...the combined forces of CIS and Republic have 1.2 million clones, nearly infinite amount of droids, ruthless and capable commanders and some people able to use battle meditation. Still they lose ?



Again: The CIS includes Dark Jedi + Sith Lords and you're talking about ethical restrictions ?



Yes. Sure. They all were totally crap. Have a look at the background action in the Geonosis arena. You will see that most of the Jedi are fighting 5+ droids at any time while being confronted with heavy weapons (that nice Geonosian weapons), the beast that are still running around in the arena and stuff like that. And you want to tell me that they are "bad" or "crap".

"Hey look. Those guys are getting creamed being outnumbered 20 to 1 taking hundrets of opponents with them."
"Yeah. What losers."



Yeah. Right. We have seen KotoR Jedi:
- running away from 4 soldiers (Kavar)
- getting killed by a small bunch of Hutt bandits (yes...guys like the ones Luke killed in the beginning of ROTJ) (Andur Sunrider)
- getting pwned by manipulated protocol droids (Arca Jeth)
- getting creamed by Krath War Droids (Battle of Deneba)
- getting outduelled by minor Force users (Jedi on the SF)
- getting instakilled by a single Sith Witch (Masters on Dantooine)
- getting creamed by their former students (Nadd's master and Vodo)
- getting killed by Sith Assassins (who don't even have to be "active" force users)

They died in the same pathetic ways the PT Jedi did so what makes you think they are better ? Have we seen them deflecting blaster bolts from multiple opponents at once ? Have we seen them lifting stuff with several hundret tons of weight around ? Have we seen them disabling droids with a single use force powers ? Have we seen a single Jedi surviving a duel with a Sith Lord ? Have we seen KotoR padawans bashing multiple opponents armed with blasters ?
I don't think so. So what actually makes them better. The fact that they lived 4,000 years before the PT Jedi ? In fact I've seen nothing that shows that the KotoR era Jedi are superior to the PT Jedi (Sith are a different story).

I'm thinking that a standard Mandalorian is on par with say an elite ARC trooper. There damn good - these guys could take down Jedi one on one - and war hardened Jedi aswell, taught in times of war.

And an advantage of smaller ships is they are more manouverable and blah blah.

I am back to neutral. I realize now that the Mandalorians, as good as they may be, don't stand a chance in space combat. Also, the Republic has a crap load of money for supplies... and so do the sepretists (Munnilist alone is super rich). People like GG, Asaaj, some/most of the Jedi Knights and Masters, Durge (he would love to get payback on the Mandalorians), Jango, Maul (if we are counting him), and Dooku are matches for even the best Mandalorian soldiers in ground combat. I need a true number of Mandalorian slodiers before I can make up my mind.

Don't forget General Ser'vance Tann from Galactic Battlegrounds.

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
The Frence played a small role in the outcome on the war. They came very late into it and it just basically forced Britian to surrender.
WWII:
America gathered more then 10 million people to fight the war and they all had little training and yet they whipped out German and Japanese forces

Civil War:
The Union gathered 500,000 soldiers and gave them short training periods and they defeated the CSA.

Now it will take longer for the Mand. to reach planets giving the Republic and CIS plenty of time to gather aid and create a well trained army.

lol

Glad to see American history is still as obfuscated as possible.

Americans never fielded ten million people, kid. Hell, the Germans and the Russians were the only Western powers to field near (and technically over) that amount, and in the case of the Germans it was never all at once. And the Americans had EXTENSIVE training. Go watch Band of Brothers or read a book on the 101st Airborne Division. They slaved and worked themselves into shape and training because if they didn't they would have been slaughtered like cattle. And these aren't even mudcrunchers; they're parachute units. And saying they "whipped out (I'm assuming you meant wiped out) the German and Japanese forces" is ignorance at its best. German troops had fought since 1937-38 and starting in 41 they were fighting on multiple fronts, a country that is the size of Montana. German troops were already losing a battle of attrition in the east to the regrouping Russian forces and the only reason the Allied forces took Normandy is because Rommel wasn't in charge and there was no armor on the beach.

As for the Japanese, it was the bomb that broke their back, not the costly island hopping technique that cost more American lives than an average day in western France. This had little to do with American numbers or training and everything to do with the Japanese having been bombed into submission... twice.

As for the Civil War, you might wanna go read a book on it, cuz the North was in a position to win the war five years before it happened. The South had no manufacturing or raw materials anywhere on the level of the North. Hell, they couldn't even provide boots for their troops and had to steal them from dead northern troopers. This again had nothing to do with any extensive training and everything to do with the South losing the war before it even began. What solidified the defeat of the South was Grant's siege of the important Vicksburg and Sherman's March to the Sea.

There.

The south could have won the war if they stuck to defense instead of being stupid and trying to defeat the union which was more then double their size in military might. Most southerns were well trained soldiers but soldiers they drafted or those who enlisted (mostly blacks) never held a gun in their life and they went through a few months of training.

WWII
What did you want America to do with island hopping? Just go to Japan which you cannot do because the US actually wanted to take the islands back from Japan. Now then with the bombing on Japanese city, they could have gone head on with the Japanese forces and the American Forces would have won but they did this to end the war without losing so many more. Now for training. How much training do you think they got? A few months maybe because they needed to been sent out as soon as possible for both Civil War and WWII. And try to pay attention to the length soldiers were trained who were drafted and enlisted for the war then those who joined years later. And if you did know about WWII you would know the american army had 12 million in it because so many men drafted into the army after pearl harbor that women entered the work force or do you not know about that?

The south could have won the war if they stuck to defense instead of being stupid and trying to defeat the union which was more then double their size in military might.

Uh, no.

South has little munitions, little raw materials, little anything. Hell, before the war Union generals knew this to be true. The only reason the war lasted as long as it did was because the tactics initially were outdated.


Most southerns were well trained soldiers but soldiers they drafted or those who enlisted (mostly blacks) never held a gun in their life and they went through a few months of training.

No.

Most Southerners were rural folk who had perhaps handled a gun but they were not on their own a functional army. Lee was a blunderfest, Jackson died to his OWN troops, and that moron they sent out to Kansas lost them the entire tristate area.



WWII
What did you want America to do with island hopping? Just go to Japan which you cannot do because the US actually wanted to take the islands back from Japan.

Island hopping was bloody business. Thought to be neccessary but nonetheless, it was not "whipping out the Japanese army." The Japanese fought to the last man. My greatuncle was at Okinawa and I've heard the stories. And your initial point was the Americans had ten millions troops who were all barely trained and they kicked ass. Btw, that's wrong.


Now then with the bombing on Japanese city, they could have gone head on with the Japanese forces and the American Forces would have won but they did this to end the war without losing so many more.

The Japanese didn't give up until days after the second bomb. Their resolve was ironclad. Back to your original point which I attacked, this had NOTHING to do with little trained ten million troops.


Now for training. How much training do you think they got? A few months maybe because they needed to been sent out as soon as possible for both Civil War and WWII.

Union troops and generals were sometimes part of the professional army or had been in the Mexican War. This is wartime training which btw > "little training". Go look up the biographies of the major Union generals. Almost all of them had service records either with the Indians and/or in the Mexican War.

As for WWII, troops received very extensive training. At this time places like Paris Island was training Marines for the Eastern theatre of operations. Marines are trained -very- well. As for regular mudcrunchers, they were more or less on level ground with contemporary training methods. This was still less than the Germans, but of course the Germans had a militaristic state. WWII American troops were mostly volunteers, with the professional soldiers taking up the non-com ranks and officer ranks.


And try to pay attention to the length soldiers were trained who were drafted and enlisted for the war then those who joined years later.

Try to pay attention? I no doubtedly know more about history then you do. Don't preach to the choir, especially if you're preaching the wrong sermon.

Btw, here's your figures

http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html


And if you did know about WWII you would know the american army had 12 million in it because so many men drafted into the army after pearl harbor that women entered the work force or do you not know about that?

No, it didn't have twelve million in active service for sure. D-Day, the largest Allied invasion of the war which had combined forces of Canada, US, and Britain, barely numbered over a million.

If the Americans had twelve million troops they could contend with the Soviets.