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This story has been an interesting one for showing the motivations of the Light Siders.

When faced with the dilemma of either letting Faylar accumulate his droid army or completely disobey their orders from the Council and get involved in a war in which they have no jurisdiction... no-one even seemed to consider not stopping Faylar.

This is not a criticism. Neither way was more valid than the other. Just interesting that no-one dissented!

The main problem for the Jedi in this story is that they are outside the Republic and hence have no power, though this does not seem to have troubled them any!

But for example, in trying to recover Argentis, it was entirely feasible for the Jedi to actually try and negotiate with Faylar! But I guess no-one could stomach it.

In the recent negotiations with Yerssot, I noticed a couple of problems. First, no-one would even begin to believe Faylar's offer of letting yerssot go if you guys left. I can tell you, that offer was genuine. Faylar had absolutely NO intention of opposing the Jedi. Why would he? What would it get him? The problem, of course, is that you didn't have Argentis, I'm just surprised that no-one believed him.

Of course, Faylar IS an evil bastard. But he is a SENSIBLE evil bastard. He has no intention of making an enemy of the Jedi Order by kidnapping or killing a Jedi Knight- unless he has to.

This is the centre of the dilemma of the Jedi. Faylar will not trouble them again if they leave him. But he WILL dominate Damagran, and rule it with an iron fist. It is illegal for you to intervene. But millions would thank you for it.

The question is, you you think you should do the RIGHT thing, even if you don't have THE right to do it? You have all deicded yes immedaitely, which makes you great heroes, of course, but it's unusual for a Jedi. Ithrorn, for example, is very unhappy with it all but won't defy the two Masters.

This is, by the way, the area in which Renegades get it easier than Jedi. They don't have the back-up resources of the Jedi Council, but they are free of some of these ethical dilemmas! For Xeth, this is all simple. Faylar is evil and he must be stopped!

What did alarm me a tad, though, Lance, was your suggestion to attack Faylar's men! They had actually come to negotiate with you about yerssot in good faith. And you seemed prepared to butcher them! The sort of thing I would expect from the Dark Side!

Of course, you weren't being like the Dark Side- I assume you thought they were coming to do something evil to you. But I thought it would point it out, all the same.

It IS hard being a Jedi. There ARE rules, important rules, that means you can't always do all you want. This is why Renegades walk away, but they end up with problems of their own.

I thought this was a point wortyh of discussion, anyway. I know Gundy loves the feel of actually trying to do EXACTLY what a true Jedi would do. What do the rest of you think when it comes to these sort of decisions? Because there may be more to com ein future.

When I said 'attack' Faylar's men, I didn't mean it to be a butchering. That word could mean many things.

Like what we could have done was take their weapons (if they had any) and knock them out. Or we could have taken their weapons and used the Force to mess with their minds and keep them out of our business.

Granted, but it still wouldn't have been very nice!

From what I and my character thought, they were going to do us harm. We didn't believe Faylar.

If those orders are given from the beginning of game II, I haven't got them


"We are keepers of the peace"


New to me

btw, I can say that I was with the Dark Jedi for a long time, easily to get brainwashed

Choosing to portray a Master was an easy decision, yet acting as one by adhering to the directive of the council on a given mission is something else entirely.

The moral dilemmas faced at any given time can only be dealt with using the resources at hand, no matter how limited they may seem and of course, the individual's knowledge of the Force.

While this is seemingly obvious, utilizing those resources and that knowledge in a manner that is acceptable to the council is always something any Jedi has to keep foremost in mind. As Yoda said, the Force is for knowledge and defense, never for attack. And once you return to Coruscant and face the council, you have to be prepared to explain your actions.

Aren't the DJ going to try and kill Faylar anyway?

read the title Rex, you're not allowed in here!

He can pop in.

Yes, the DJs want to take care of Faylar and that gives the Jedi as particularly nasty choice!

yerssot, appreciated you didn't know as much but that 'Keepers of the Peace' line means nothing. You are Keepers of the Peace INSIDE the Republic!

You have no authority to back your actions on Damagran- only force (no pun intended). Bear in mind that may colour the perceptions Damagran has of the Jedi.

Meanwhile Lance... yes, I understand no-one trusts Faylar but it is easy to take that too far. Like I say, it would be pretty dumb of him to try anything against you.

Even evil people CAN be reasonable, see? Which doesn't make things any easier for you! No-one, of course, will complain if Faylar is stopped.

But are you just going to let the DJ's murder him like that?


It must be said if there is any area where I am differing somewhat from the feel of the movies it is by adding a slight moral complexity. But in most ways, my people are the same as Star Wars people- you have good guys and bad guys, and not really anyone in-between!

The Masters, of course, are meant to present a moral lead. Kiel is a pacifist. You may have noticed he hasn't killed anyone. Even in the fight at the start all he did was push someone off a building, and then he took time to check he hadn't killed him! Kiel loathes violence. But as you all know, pacifism does not always work.

Gundy has her own views on leadership, of course, How would you like to see your little posse go, Gundy?

'Go' as in sacrifice them for the good of the cause, the good of the Republic ?

Bwa! No, as in how would you like to see them turn out?

Yes, yes they are.

Well I'd certainly like to be presenting Argentis to the Jedi council by tomorrow afternoon with the Knights in one piece of course.

That won't happen. We have to fight first, remember? Lightsabers against lightsabers, the Dark-side against the Light-side, Captain REX vs. LanceWindu...

Your evilness becomes you Rex.

"For more then a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the sworn protectors of all that was good" (OB1, adapted quote since I don't know it exactly)
And then you have Palpatines remark:
"I will not let this Republic that has standed for thousand years, be split in two"

So, as you say in the EpII section: the Republic isn't that old. So the Jedi already protected people BEFORE the republic

DUH!!! What, they just sat around on their lazy asses wondering how to make a lightsaber while the Sith were attacking the people that were going to make the Republic.

Don't be so dense, yerss. No matter what the age of the Republic (which, incidentally, there must have been SOME version of more than 1000 years ago because Obi-Wan specifies as such) it changes nothing. You only have lawful authority INSIDE the Republic.

well, last time I checked the contract it said we should help EVERYONE EVERYWHERE

Your own views are one thing but the legal authority you actually hold is quite another.

yup, and this thread is about Jedi Morality, and I think it's my duty to protect the innocent, the place is of no importance

Right, so you think you are superior to the law, huh? Interesting but not very Jedi.

I love the law and I love the Republic...

I haven't heared about the Damagran law of forbidden the Jedi to do their job

Sigh...

Damagran is OUTSIDE THE REPUBLIC! You have NO legal jurisdiction there! It is NOT your job!

not my job enforced by the Republic, yes
doesn't mean I have to set there and get a beautysleep

It's not your job full stop. Your job is to guard Peace and Justice in the Republic.

And no, it doesn't mean you should do nothing, but bear in mind that people will note that you are acting illegally.

As it stands the Jedi will be accused of provoking a Republican war with Damagran.

The Jedi are not the lapdog of the Republic, they HELP them, doesn't mean they are 100% owned by them!

peace and justice in the republic, yes, and so you say we should let people get killed on other worlds?

"A Jedi is not a creature of morals"

From the Code.

It is not your job to pass moral judgment on other cultures. Damagran has a culutre where Jedi do not keep the peace. By the Code you must respect that.

And yerssot, you are entirely wrong. The Jedi SERVE the Republic. They are SERVANTS. Effectively, the Republic does indeed own you.

they don't own the jedi, the jedi help them in order to keep peace in the galaxy

where did you get that part of the code?

No, the Jedi serve the Republic in keeping peace. As GL says, they are based on Federal Marshalls of the old west. They can be ordered by the Republic to do things.

Where? All over the bloody place, yerss. That's Odan-Urr's most controversial statement because some read it to mean that a Jedi can do no wrong.

EU

and an RP is NOT canon, like the sabrecolors, so as long as there is no written confirmation of the jedicode, it's all vague

Well, I can tell you now, if you seriously think that you do not serve the Republic and are a law unto yourself you are no Jedi in my game. That makes you a Renegade.

we DO serve them but the jedis first task is to help the innocent THEN the Republic and since you are refering to EU things... read "The Stark Hyperspace Wars", in that Plo Koon literally says that the supreme chancellor asked them to help

Well, GL's thing about them being Federal Marshalls clearly makes them serving the Republic, yerss, and that is that.

And you are NOT above the law, yerss. Your job is to protect the innocent BY defending the Republic. That is your primary concern. The Jedi Order is not presumptive enough to think that it has the right to dictate terms on the Galaxy. It is GIVEN authority, it does not take it, and the Jedi would not be stood for any other way.

BTW, I happily accept the Jedi Code as given in the EU.

Looking through this interesting thread there is a question that I'd really like to know your views on.

At the start of Ush's second story the Jedi Council instructed the Lightsiders not to interfere with the war on Damogran. Without getting into arguments about whether you should follow the Council or follow your heart what are people's views on why the Council decided not to interfere? Do you think Mace, Yoda and that guy with the binary brain just followed the Republic's lead or do you think they had their own reasons why they thought you should not get involved.

Oh, don't start making them THINK, Rich...

And it is Ki-Adi Mundi as you know full well!

I could remember the Mundi bit but not the rest.

How can you have an argument if the other guy doesn't think? Otherwise its just plain contradiction!

No it isn't!

Um... we had better stop or no-one will answer your question...

Are you now saying that we don't think Ush???

heck, he's right about one of us

I was just joshing, Lance... can you answer him, btw?

council orders first, but if someone needs help, that goes first

Sure thing.

I think that the Jedi Council both followed the lead of the Republic and maybe they also had their own reasons.

Like no wanting us to get involved so the Republic Senate doesn't frown upon the Jedi and their ways.

That wasn't the question. He said leaving that aside for now.

Then what's the question?

Bad timing, Lance, I was talking to yerss. Your answer was lovely.

then I misunderstood

Good to know.

BTW I hate it when it allows two people to post on the same thread at the exact same time. Don't you?

This was Brith's question, yerss:

"At the start of Ush's second story the Jedi Council instructed the Lightsiders not to interfere with the war on Damogran. Without getting into arguments about whether you should follow the Council or follow your heart what are people's views on why the Council decided not to interfere? Do you think Mace, Yoda and that guy with the binary brain just followed the Republic's lead or do you think they had their own reasons why they thought you should not get involved."

And Lance- yes I do!

They should make something so it doesn't allow that. It would make things around here that much more organized.

your bro's question:

I think it was a lot of things combined, like Argentis (apperently), because if he lost his temper the Jedi would look bad

Right-oh.

Brith, *I* think it was Mace panicking because he thought the characters might notice he had just deleted Kamino from the archives...

All fair answers, though it does make Yoda and co sound a lot like politicians. Do you think that the Council could have chosen this path as they thought it would be the best way to resolve the conflict and not because they were concerned with the reputation of the Jedi?

All fair answers... except for the Mace answer.

What about my answer? What about my answer????????

Errr, Ill think about your answer Ush.

I never trusted them

nah, I think the TPM-AOTC time is still a time where Jedi had an enormous reputation that they didn't need to defend

Remember what Obi Wan said "Don't do ANYTHING without consulting either the council or myself first."

The Jedi does not take the "law" into its own hands.

Once you are back in front of the council yerssot, you have quite a lot to atone for.

So speaks the Master!

What do you make of Brith's questions, Gundy?

and he said that to an arrogant PADAWAN, that's the difference, it was his first mission and a very important one...

btw, the only thing y'all know 'bout me is that I was with the darkies for a few months, that's all

So if it wasn't to protect their reputation if Argentis goes mad why tell you not to interfere?

You see, the Council is meant to be this wise institution. If you decide to interfere you are going against all those people's views. However, if you don't know the reason behind those orders how can you tell if your reasons fo disobeying them are better?

As I said I'm not worried about whether you should or shouldn't follow their orders but did anyone think along the lines of "Well, Yoda is wiser than I am and he thinks a bad idea to interfere... so I probably shouldn't"?

Yoda doesn't know the sitation here...
"Always in motion the future is"
and they can make errors as well...

"His powers have made him arrogant"
"hmm, common among most jedi this is" (or something like that)
and Yoda and co didn't do anything to change that attitude

Not much confidence in the Council there!

Because the Padawan is instructed from day one to follow the council's orders without question. The council and the Masters who serve upon it have more experience and can instruct from that experience. It doesn't matter if an individual Jedi thinks, "well its more important or more sensible to do this instead of what I was instructed". The dependability of the Jedi and the institution it represents is based upon its unwavering system of beliefs.

Of course the council instructed us not to interfere in the Damagram conflict. It is not our place ! There is no peace to be kept there; it doesn't exist anymore. The council's concern is to retrieve the wayward Padawan Argentis before he brings more conflict into an already volitile situation thus helping to preserve the integrity of the Order.

In that case, Gundy, I assume you have the opposite view to yerss about the points Brith is making as well, yeah?

well, depends on how you look at OB1's quote I take... still think it's because OB1 is jealous and is his master...


You now say that since Damagarn left the Republic we just don't need to look after those people?
What if you step out of that palace and you see two pirates shooting at a bunch of children? now you are obligated to just walk away, because of some orders that Yoda and the others couldn't have seen coming

Surely Yoda's comment could apply to you Yerssot? I mean, you argument seems to be "Hey, the Council can be wrong". Fair enough, but without an idea of their reasoning thats pure presumption on your part.

I am saying, yerss, that you have no RIGHT to look after those people. No-one gives YOU the right to keep the peace in Damagran. In the Republic, those powers and responsbilities are invested in you- NOT outside it. And Faylar has a right to tell you to go away.

You have to understand you are policemen! Not judges of the universe!

Well of course you don't let them shoot the children ! Thats ridiculous ! Defending a bunch of children is not interfering in a planetary war !!

Indeed, I would say yerssot's thoughts are arrogant in the extreme and are exactly what Yoda was worried about.

according to HOTE we ARE judges of the universe...

No-one (excapt Ush?) will know 100% about Yoda's thoughts, perhaps it's related to something we haven't seen yet...

I think one dictator has everything to say, afterall, from what I heared it was the Jedi's job to get him to Coruscant, so that's suddenly possible? that's also intervening

Don;t try and accuse me of knowing Yoda's thoughts, yerss. I am making the same point Brith did. You are immediately assuming that you know better than the Council and can exceed your remit. That is extreme arrogance.

Yerss, who the heck gives you the RIGHT to be judges of the Universe? NO-ONE. That is just so much rubbish. The Republic gives you the right to be its policemen. The Jedi gladly accept that role. But they were GIVEN power, they didn't just assume it.

If the Jedi appoint themselves judges of the universe then they must be resisted by everyone, and brought to heel as soon as possible.

Fortunately, this ludicrous state of affasirs will never happen because the Jedi order has some humility- apparently unlike you.

okayyyy... let's get this down one by one, real slowly so we don't talk about 100 things at a time...

(To Yerssot's second post)

The population of Damogran is evenly split between pro and anti Republican forces. Now Faylar may be using the situation to his own ends, but the conflict on Damogran was an issue of self-determination. Faylar had an army - it wasn't that these people were forced to fight for him; they wanted out of the Republic. In such issues outside interference can only be for the worst. This is what Yoda knew. If the Jedi help one side in the war how are supporters of the other side ever going to think of Jedi as impartial again? Thats why the Council wanted to stay out of the conflict so they could be trusted by both sides after the war - a war the Republic was trying to resolve peacefully (hence the blockade).

By the way your example of the pirates - how does that relate to Faylar? Your orders are not to interfere in the war not turn a blind eye.

Let me ask you a question, yerss. What if you went out kite flying this weekend, and then an American policeman from Washington came and arrested you for it? Kite flying is illegal there.

Wouldn't you say "You have no right to arrest me here, you're not a Belgain policeman" and ALSO say "and it's not illegal here!"

This is roughly what is happening on Damagran, though, Republican policemen enforcing Republican laws- outside the Republic. You can see why this would upset people.

Since I started typing that about four people have posted to this thread. We should probably give people more time to reply!

And Gundy made a point similar to yours.

But very good points Brith has made there (at the end of the page before this one) and I highly recommend that they be read by all. Jedi mediation in Damagran after this war could be made impossible.

I think everyone should also be aware that I am not saying that you should not have exceeded your powers by doing all this.

So long as you KNEW you were doing that, and judged the situation grave enough to warrant it. I am worried if people think that this is within the standard rights of the Jedi!

The confusion over the powers of a Jedi is unfortunate, but to clear it up for everyone now:

You are policemen with powers to act in the interests of peace and justice throughout the Republic. As Jedi you also have a moral responsbility to do good in general, but you must never assume you have the power to do what you like all the time. If you are inside a foreign culture you should respect that culture.

It is also frowned upon for Jedi to make moral judgments on alien cultures, but there is a limit to that (i.e. you still fight them if they are evil)