Darth Sidious Vs Durge

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Decay
sidious with no saber vs durge with no projectile weapons. durge is pretty unkillable but has never gone up against someone as powerful as sidious. i wonder how effective force lightning would be on a massive nerve cluster.

jollyjim311
Painful.

Dush-khan Mabeo
I'd have to say Sids gets thid one

darthsith19
LOL, Sidious.

Se7in
Durge. While Sidious could use the Force, he can't use if forever, and lightning is uneffective, one ARC used it a lightning weapons on him and he ran right through it like nothing.

Escape81
Originally posted by Se7in
Durge. While Sidious could use the Force, he can't use if forever, and lightning is uneffective, one ARC used it a lightning weapons on him and he ran right through it like nothing.

Durge... You think 'Durge' would beat Sidious? Need I remind you that Grievous took on Assaj and Durge at the same time and bested them, and you don't think Sidious could take 'Durge'?

Se7in
No. Sidious with no saber can't fight Durge. What's he gonna do, seduce him and talk him to death? He has no defense against him. Sidious showed he could maybe throw some stuff with the Force, but nothing Durge couldn't emerge from. Durge took a rocket to the face, and internal combustion and lived.

Escape81
I don't know. Sidious has exceptionally powerful Force powers, just beneath Yoda's own. His Sith Lightning is also very powerful, and like most lightning doesn't melt faces, Sidious's did. I'm not so sure that it is the same lightning we mortals view on Earth.

Se7in
Maybe. But I fail to see how Sidious' lightning does more damage than beng shot 100 times and getting hit with a rocket.

Escape81
Perhaps it doesn't.

Anyways. Durge will not be able to overpower Palpatine, since the Dark Lord has the Force on his side. It's safe to assume that the standard Dark Side powers are all at his disposal. He might choke Durge, or blast him with lightning, or chuck a starfighter at him... Lol. If Durge uses projectiles, Sidious will simply blast them back with the Force. Now, laser bolts might become a problem... I dunno.

Perhaps you're right.

Se7in
Durge can't use projectiles. It says in the beginning. I still think, however, if Durge can lay his hands on Sidious, it's over.

xxxpoppunker182
" the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant when compared to the power of the force"-Darth Vader

sidious would win. granted it would be quite a challenge.

Darth_Glentract
Sidious has this for sure. He can easily take Durge. It's a common thing here, some character get super-pumped and then after a while becomes considered far to weak; to make up for a period of fanboyism, perhaps, but its really annoying. Sidious could just hold Durge a in the atmosphere and let him burn away.

Se7in
WHAT? That makes no sense Glentract. How is Sidious going to put Durge into the atmosphere? Seriously, for all we know they're fighting in the Tatooine desert and there's no way ANY Jedi could Force Push someone into the atmosphere.

Darth_Glentract
Sidious isn't a Jedi though. stick out tongue

Jedi can move large amounts of things though. Yoda lifted an X-wing out of a swamp, and I believe Sidious to be stronger in force powers than Yoda. If the same amount of energy that had been used to lift an X-wing out of a swamp, I think someone with a much lesser mass would go very high up.

Even if Durge can't be thrown into the atmosphere, force lightning will kill him. It will take a while, but mixed with force pushes, Durge will slowly be vaporized.


Also, are you saying Tatooine has no atmosphere? It's a habitable planet, it has a thick atmosphere.

Ianus
Cute.

"I believe Sidious has more Force power than Yoda."

I like this faith-based arguing I see going on at KMC all of a sudden. Not to harp on you Glentract, but it's pretty EVIDENT that Yoda tromps all over Sidious' Force powers. Watch the lightning battle in ROTS. Yoda wins it from a position of disadvantage. He overpowed Sidious.

This means Yoda > Sidious.

Se7in
How are you going to push someone miles into the air in the middle of a desert?

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
Cute.

"I believe Sidious has more Force power than Yoda."

I like this faith-based arguing I see going on at KMC all of a sudden. Not to harp on you Glentract, but it's pretty EVIDENT that Yoda tromps all over Sidious' Force powers. Watch the lightning battle in ROTS. Yoda wins it from a position of disadvantage. He overpowed Sidious.

This means Yoda > Sidious.

This is very true, Glentract.

Though, I will take into question your wording, Ianus. The word 'tromp' makes it seem as if Yoda conquered Sidious with extreme ease. He did not, and that word makes it very suggestive. Yoda was very nearly overpowered during that skirmish on the pod, and only with a renewed sense of determination was he able to finally push Sidious back, along with his lightning.

Ianus
Yes, but tromp sounds cooler.

If I said "And Yoda, with a grim look of sheer determination, pushed back the wave of Sith energy..." it would be too grandiose. Tromp sounds funny and I get a mental picture of Yoda kicking Sidious in the shin or something every time I type it.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
Yes, but tromp sounds cooler.

If I said "And Yoda, with a grim look of sheer determination, pushed back the wave of Sith energy..." it would be too grandiose. Tromp sounds funny and I get a mental picture of Yoda kicking Sidious in the shin or something every time I type it.

Oh yeah, well... well... Sidious has cooler outfits than Yoda! stick out tongue

Ianus
Yeah, but Yoda has rags. He's the ghetto master.

Escape81
Oh yeah, well... well... Sidious has a fricken' Empire and a Death Star! stick out tongue

exanda kane
Does he have his own mud-hut kitchen utensils though?

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Ianus
Cute.

"I believe Sidious has more Force power than Yoda."

I like this faith-based arguing I see going on at KMC all of a sudden. Not to harp on you Glentract, but it's pretty EVIDENT that Yoda tromps all over Sidious' Force powers. Watch the lightning battle in ROTS. Yoda wins it from a position of disadvantage. He overpowed Sidious.

This means Yoda > Sidious.

And lightning is the only indication of force power because...?

Sidious was at a disadvantage during the lightning attack because he had to generate the lightning and stop whatever was fired back at him. Defending usually requires less energy than attacking.

Also, look at the Senate pods. Sidious was picking several of them up at a time and chucking them at Yoda while Yoda stoped one and threw that back. Yes, Yoda did have to overcome the energy put into it by Sidious, but notice he spends several seconds stoping the pod and throwing it back.

Doesn't seem to evident to me.

exanda kane
"Defending usually requires less energy than attacking." This I quoted from Glentract.

Ermm...sure you dont want to rethink that?

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by exanda kane
"Defending usually requires less energy than attacking." This I quoted from Glentract.

Ermm...sure you dont want to rethink that?

Why would I?

exanda kane
Because it defies logic that is why.

Darth_Glentract
Not really. Do rubber gloves have more energy than an electrical socket? No, but they can defend stop it.

Look at the Alamo, for example. Did the ~150 Texans have more power than the Spanish Army? No, but they managed to kill ~600 Mexicans. It is a fair bit easier to defend.

I can give more examples if you like.

exanda kane
Not in this context.

Hurling tonnes of force lightning like a crazed mofo, ie Palpatine, will be easier than you being the little green frog-man trying to stop a huge, un-ending wave of high voltage lighting with your hands!

Darth_Glentract
Not really.

Yoda has to stop lighting that gets to him.

Sidious has to generate the lighting and direct it at Yoda.

Also, energy would through air resistance(air is a very bad conductor) and light.

Therefor Yoda is stoping less energy than Sidious is generating. Remember, on top of generating the energy, Sidious has to channel it at Yoda.

exanda kane
And? although the aesthetics of producing force-lightning are scarce we can logically assume that this would Sidious does not have to generate and then move the lightning;
He simply has to generate it at Yoda (i may be unclear on this but i cant be bothered to wire ann essay).

And how exactly do you stop this energy. First you must as it appears onscreen) slow down the lightning and then you must absorb it safely.
On sheer principle this must take up much of Yoda's energy and concentration.

Darth_Glentract
Canb you re-type that in a way that makes a little more sense please? I can't understand what you are saying.

Ianus
And lightning is the only indication of force power because...?

Because it's his deadliest attack.


Sidious was at a disadvantage during the lightning attack because he had to generate the lightning and stop whatever was fired back at him.

Proof of this? Evidence? Back up? Anything?


Defending usually requires less energy than attacking.

How does this statement fit into the argument? Is there more energy being used on one side then the other? Is not Yoda having to exert himself more to come back from off-balance position?

And really, where is there evidence in print or live-action movie of defending via Force being LESS exerting than attacking?



Also, look at the Senate pods. Sidious was picking several of them up at a time and chucking them at Yoda while Yoda stoped one and threw that back.

Yoda only stopped to nab one, and it was at a point when he wasn't close enough to simply hop to the side and gain ground (Which he did right after he chucked one back.) Technically, he didn't need to chuck more than once since he nearly got Sidious after the first.

And throwing pods down (in accordance with gravity) is presumably easier than throwing it up.


Yes, Yoda did have to overcome the energy put into it by Sidious, but notice he spends several seconds stoping the pod and throwing it back.

Which in turn Sidious didn't (And possibly couldn't) have done the same thing, since Sidious didn't stop the same pod when it came at him.


Doesn't seem to evident to me.

It's very evident, and your rebuttal just made it even more evident. Consider that you might be wrong for once, Glentract. Lord knows you've been running around KMC like this is your own virtual debate sandbox and it's pissing everyone off.

Escape81
Sidious and Yoda were, in fact, exerting nearly the same amount of energy during the Force lightning struggle. Sidious was using his Sith teachings to perform a feat unavailable to Yoda, and was emitting the lightning. Yoda was emitting a barrier, of which, he could use to hold the lightning at bay. But Sidious was able to move closer while Yoda could not. Sidious did indeed have the more control of the situation.

Glentract, Sidious had gravity on his side. This is a distinct advantage. But, at the same time, this proves Yoda is only barely stronger than Sidious in the Force, considering if it were otherwise, Yoda would have defied gravity.

At the same time, Ianus, Sidious was laughing and had his eyes closed and his face covered when the pod was chucked back. He whirled out of the way just as it came close. But he managed to lift these things, which were the size of cars, three at a time. It is safe to assume he could have deflected it if he saw it in time, and nothing to support the contrary.

Ianus
The point I was trying to make is that Glentract makes assumptions based on movie events in a form of poor sampling. In the same line of thought, I could say Sidious was weaker than Yoda because he didn't catch the pod. Really though, the most convincing part of Yoda's superiority (and whether it's more or a little is subjective) is the virtual Force battle he won at the end of the match.

Decay
i dont think either of them overpowered the other. it was just all the force energy pushed back on itself and concentrated by the both of them pushing it that it became uncontrolable and was released in a wave of energy that forced them both back. i think yoda used the same amount of energy to hold it back as sidious used to push it fowards. it was a stale mate, hence the recoil that sent both flying.

like obi wan and anakin pushing directly at eachother in their duel, nobody clearly won, it was just too much energy and they were both sent flying. i dong think yoda could have won though. the whole point of the fight was that the dark side overpowered the light. had he not fallen yoda could have come back to fight some more, but to what effect? hed lost his saber, hed put alot of energy into stopping the force lightning, and sidious wasnt all that tired. he was stong enough to hold on and laugh, not a weak laugh but a loud uncontrolled laugh.

plus sidious had used great amounts of force energy during the fight to throw massive objects at yoda and he wasnt slowing down. yoda sent one back at him but he wasnt actually forcing it down on yoda, hed thrown it but he wasnt still pushing it at him when it was stopped. sidious had been overpowering yoda from the start, yoda got one counter to actaully do some damage, and it was to both of them. and sidious didnt seem to be phased by it, only forced back over a rail, which he easily had the presence of mind, and strength to grab. and laugh.

when sidious used massive amounts of power on mace he got up and didnt look tired in the least. he didnt sigh or breathe deep. he expressed satisfaction, and then stood up as though hed done nothing at all.

how did this turn into another yoda vs sidious thread anyway? i made it because id never seen sidious put in a fight with a non force user that actaully stood a chance against him, and it still ends up being force user to force user.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Ianus

And lightning is the only indication of force power because...?

Because it's his deadliest attack.

So if Yoda had been crushed under one of the Pods, that wouldn't be more deadly?

Also, if you look very closely in the lightning scene, you can see Yoda flying back a distance a large amount greater to how far Sidious flew.

Originally posted by Ianus

Sidious was at a disadvantage during the lightning attack because he had to generate the lightning and stop whatever was fired back at him.

Proof of this? Evidence? Back up? Anything?

Yoda has to stop lighting that gets to him.

Sidious has to generate the lighting and direct it at Yoda.

Also, energy would through air resistance(air is a very bad conductor) and light.

Therefor Yoda is stoping less energy than Sidious is generating. Remember, on top of generating the energy, Sidious has to channel it at Yoda.

Also, lightning hits the closest target. The person using the force lightning has to propel the lightning away from them, overcoming it's natural tendency to come to the closest object.

Originally posted by Ianus

Defending usually requires less energy than attacking.

How does this statement fit into the argument? Is there more energy being used on one side then the other? Is not Yoda having to exert himself more to come back from off-balance position?

And really, where is there evidence in print or live-action movie of defending via Force being LESS exerting than attacking?

There is no evidence to the contrary either, but there are logical assumptions that I showed above that would point towards defending being easier than attacking.

Originally posted by Ianus

Also, look at the Senate pods. Sidious was picking several of them up at a time and chucking them at Yoda while Yoda stoped one and threw that back.

Yoda only stopped to nab one, and it was at a point when he wasn't close enough to simply hop to the side and gain ground (Which he did right after he chucked one back.) Technically, he didn't need to chuck more than once since he nearly got Sidious after the first.

And throwing pods down (in accordance with gravity) is presumably easier than throwing it up.

He nearly got Sidious after the first. Why would that keep him from throwing another one? He should have kept going until Sidious died.

Also, I noticed that Sidious picks up four at one time. Not a lot, but it's still a bit of a difference.

On top of that, I noticed that only some of the pods are mobile. It shows a close up of Sidious picking one up in one part and there sparks come out and you can see some beams break. I only saw this clearly twice, once when Yoda dodges and then stands up and reignites his lightsaber. There are several pods being held at this point. The middle one shows some sparks. Also, the one that Sidious throws at Yoda shows the same thing, in much greater detail.

These beams that Sidious is snapping with ease must be very strong because they are able to hold up the Senate Pods for extended periods of time with several people in them.

Originally posted by Ianus

Yes, Yoda did have to overcome the energy put into it by Sidious, but notice he spends several seconds stoping the pod and throwing it back.

Which in turn Sidious didn't (And possibly couldn't) have done the same thing, since Sidious didn't stop the same pod when it came at him. Yoda has to stop lighting that gets to him.

Sidious simply dodged it, like Yoda did several times.


On this whole gravity-thing for Yoda throwing the pod back, Sidious did the same thing with three pods. Look at the part that I earlier mentioned with having sparks when Sidious is holding several pods and you can see that Sidious throws several(at least three) up into the air before throwing them down at Yoda, presumably to gain momentum.

Odysseus
Originally posted by Ianus
Yes, but tromp sounds cooler.

If I said "And Yoda, with a grim look of sheer determination, pushed back the wave of Sith energy..." it would be too grandiose. Tromp sounds funny and I get a mental picture of Yoda kicking Sidious in the shin or something every time I type it.
LMAO

Darth Magnevus
You freaken retard, why did you make this thread!!!! Sidius is way more powerful than Durge. He could just fry Durge with force lightning!!!

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Ianus
The point I was trying to make is that Glentract makes assumptions based on movie events in a form of poor sampling. In the same line of thought, I could say Sidious was weaker than Yoda because he didn't catch the pod. Really though, the most convincing part of Yoda's superiority (and whether it's more or a little is subjective) is the virtual Force battle he won at the end of the match.

Yoda appears to have been thrown back farther than Sidious. Sidious doesn't have a stick out tongue stranger stick out tongue facial expression, but that seems more likely to be from his arrogance in his own power rather than him being weaker.

Darth_Glentract
Sorry for the double-post, but I looked at the part with Yoda and Sidious doing the force battle again and Yoda actually flys over 25 feet when they shove each other away compared to Sidious going less than 10 feet.

If you watch chapter 40, you can see the Center pod that Yoda and Sidious are having a lightsaber fight on. This was looks slightly different than the rest of them. The pod appears to be about 10 feet long and there are about 3 pod lengths between it and the nearest other pod.

When they fly back, Sidious flys to the end of the pod, less then 10 feet back, but Yoda flies onto the center pod, over 30 feet back.

Just thought it was a necessary point.

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
On this whole gravity-thing for Yoda throwing the pod back, Sidious did the same thing with three pods. Look at the part that I earlier mentioned with having sparks when Sidious is holding several pods and you can see that Sidious throws several(at least three) up into the air before throwing them down at Yoda, presumably to gain momentum.

Actually... Glentract has a valid point here that apparently no one else has covered. I believe he may have convinced me here.

Sidious was in a pod himself, and was using the Force to levitate it in the air. He had three others in formation around himself, levitating above his head, thus defying gravity. Sidious could not have manipulated the pods himself, unable to be behind the controls of the pod. He was using the Force to keep all three pods in the air. Then, a close up of his face was shown as he jerked his arm backward, moving a pod back, farther up into the air, defying gravity again. He brought his arm down, and sent the pod screaming for Yoda.

Yoda had to stop the pod and gravity, this is true. But so did Sidious. Sidious had 'four' pods floating in the air, including his own, and pushed them up, thusly defying gravity every bit - even moreso - than Yoda.

Yoda = Sidious in the Force, or it is very possible that Sidious > Yoda.

Ianus
He's levitating the pod under himself? I didn't see this at all. Especially since when he jumped to avoid the pod Yoda threw back at him the pod was still stationary. Why would he still hold it in the air, assuming he did in the first place?

The Creator
Thats a gutsy comment there Escape.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
He's levitating the pod under himself? I didn't see this at all. Especially since when he jumped to avoid the pod Yoda threw back at him the pod was still stationary. Why would he still hold it in the air, assuming he did in the first place?

That's also a good point. So let's say that he was 'controlling' the pod that he was standing in. Still, he held three other pods in the air, and he could not have controlled them via the pod controls, since he'd have to be behind them himself to do it. So that means he took 'three' pods and pushed them up into the air with the Force with perpetual ease.

He took a hold of one with the Force and jerked his arm back behind him. The pod followed and went higher into the air, like a cobra going to strike. Sidious smashed his arm forward, and the pod hurtled through the air. Yoda caught one of the pods, but had to use effort to send it back.

Indeed, Sidious did a feat that was greater than Yoda's with more ease. You cannot deny Sidious did not defy gravity. He did. And as for the struggle with the lightning, if the opponents were equal... that is to say, if Yoda and Sidious were equal, the fight could've gone either way.

Yoda was at the edge of the pod, this is true.

But like dodgeball. If an opponent of equal strength throws the ball at me, but I catch it, I can theoretically toss it back and hit him, like Yoda with Sidious. Granted this is not an ironclad example, but come to think of it, I don't see any true reason why Yoda could be Sidious's superior in the Force.

Ianus
No, I just watched it. Glentract was right about Sidious bringing three up at a time to gain momentum. I concede that. But Sidious was NOT levitating the one beneath him. It's still grounded like the other pods.

Escape81
Originally posted by The Creator
Thats a gutsy comment there Escape.

Personally, Yoda is my favorite character. I hold him in slightly higher regards than I do for Sidious and Dooku. But why is it gutsy? Simply because many of the forums have been indoctrinated to naturally assume Yoda is Sidious's superior in the Force and saber ability? Since, that he lost to Mace, he must necessarily be Yoda's inferior? This isn't the case. All of the sources I can cite state that either the battle was a stalemate, or Yoda simply could not overpower Sidious.

I personally believe both are equal. Glentract's statement hit me home. I neglected this detail. Indeed, Sidious exhibits a mastery of the Force that is easily Yoda's equal, having been made to be Yoda's opposite. I believe they were meant to be counterpoised. Just as Sidious's ability to manipulate the pods far greater than Yoda was not enough to warrant Sidious the title of stronger Force user, I see not why Yoda's deflection of Sidious's lightning is enough for the same.

Darth_Glentract
I think they just made a blooper in the movie, because the pod was moving around before that. Perhaps it is one of the ones that floats and it was moving around as he was moving the pods around?

Nah, that idea sucks. It's must be a blooper.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
No, I just watched it. Glentract was right about Sidious bringing three up at a time to gain momentum. I concede that. But Sidious was NOT levitating the one beneath him. It's still grounded like the other pods.

I agreed after you mentioned it. So, in essence, Sidious managed to bring up three pods and directly defy gravity by pushing three pods directly up compared to Yoda's single pod, which was directed at an angle.

Not only that, but one must then take into account that Yoda used immense effort to push that one pod back at Sidious, whereas Sidious effortlessly lifted three, directly against gravity.

This evidence might be enough to shift the tides. Indeed, Sidious may be Yoda's true equal afterall.

Ianus
About the lightning war... Sidious zaps Yoda with one hand. Out goes the lightsaber. Yoda then reaches UP and grabs the lightning. Sidious uses both hands now, and Yoda blocks with both hands.

Sidious then steps forward. He seems to be cackling with delight. Yoda is leaning backwards, appearing pained. Then, he gets a loot of Resolve (tm). He pushes forward. Sidious suddenly looks pained (And sounds it too) Then there's the explosion. Sidious goes head over heels backwards. Yoda is not onscreen for the explosion. Indeed, all we see is the next shot of him falling down. So it was not Yoda flying more. That's bullshit.

The Creator
Originally posted by Escape81
Personally, Yoda is my favorite character. I hold him in slightly higher regards than I do for Sidious and Dooku. But why is it gutsy? Simply because many of the forums have been indoctrinated to naturally assume Yoda is Sidious's superior in the Force and saber ability? Since, that he lost to Mace, he must necessarily be Yoda's inferior? This isn't the case. All of the sources I can cite state that either the battle was a stalemate, or Yoda simply could not overpower Sidious.

I personally believe both are equal. Glentract's statement hit me home. I neglected this detail. Indeed, Sidious exhibits a mastery of the Force that is easily Yoda's equal, having been made to be Yoda's opposite. I believe they were meant to be counterpoised. Just as Sidious's ability to manipulate the pods far greater than Yoda was not enough to warrant Sidious the title of stronger Force user, I see not why Yoda's deflection of Sidious's lightning is enough for the same.


Its gutsy because your saying a guy with 850 years of experience isn't a stronger force user than a man with roughly 65 years of experience. But then again Sidious could be a naturally stronger force user.

Ianus
Originally posted by Escape81
I agreed after you mentioned it. So, in essence, Sidious managed to bring up three pods and directly defy gravity by pushing three pods directly up compared to Yoda's single pod, which was directed at an angle.

Not only that, but one must then take into account that Yoda used immense effort to push that one pod back at Sidious, whereas Sidious effortlessly lifted three, directly against gravity.

This evidence might be enough to shift the tides. Indeed, Sidious may be Yoda's true equal afterall.

Uh, watch the scene again. Yoda caught that one pod in less than a second. Despite its high velocity, he catches it instantly. Sidious doesn't, despite the fact that Yoda's pod is going UP and is SLOWER. Watch the scene again.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
Uh, watch the scene again. Yoda caught that one pod in less than a second. Despite its high velocity, he catches it instantly. Sidious doesn't, despite the fact that Yoda's pod is going UP and is SLOWER. Watch the scene again.

Forgive me. I didn't mean about him catching it. I meant that it took more effort out of him to chuck a pod back, even at an angle, than it took Sidious's three pods going directly up. Yes. Sidious chucks it and Yoda catches the pod. He twists it for a few seconds and then sends it back.

Sidious 'laughing', his eyes are closed, and his hand is covering his face. He sees the pod, inclines his head in confusion, and whirls away at the last moment. I did watch the scene, Ianus.

Escape81
Originally posted by The Creator
Its gutsy because your saying a guy with 850 years of experience isn't a stronger force user than a man with roughly 65 years of experience. But then again Sidious could be a naturally stronger force user.

This is true. But consider. Yoda, by his age, ought to be able to annihilate both Darth Sidious and Count Dooku in their respective duels, but isn't able to destroy either of them. Which means either Yoda was a tad bit of a slow learner, or Sidious and Dooku were potentially more powerful Force users, or that both simply learned the ways of the Force much easier.

Ianus
His eyes AREN'T closed.

And Yoda isn't having trouble with the one pod; he's spinning it to gain velocity. I just watched it three times to make sure.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Escape81
Forgive me. I didn't mean about him catching it. I meant that it took more effort out of him to chuck a pod back, even at an angle, than it took Sidious's three pods going directly up. Yes. Sidious chucks it and Yoda catches the pod. He twists it for a few seconds and then sends it back.

Sidious 'laughing', his eyes are closed, and his hand is covering his face. He sees the pod, inclines his head in confusion, and whirls away at the last moment. I did watch the scene, Ianus.

"The force is strong in this one."

Escape81
Personally, though Yoda is my favorite character, I don't really see him as downright superior to Sidious. Not since Glentract managed to bring that information to my eyes. I hope this doesn't warrant me the title of a fanboy. But considering how I see no direct opposition to this, though I think Ianus is coming up with something very clever, perhaps this is on the path where Yoda and Sidious may be seen as equals in combat. Even though Yoda is cooler. stick out tongue

Darth_Glentract
Look at the pod Yoda lands on. It a unique pod, none of the others in the chamber look like it. It is the center pod, shown for only a second or two.

YOu can tell this because it has those two simi-wall things that Yoda and Sidious are standing on when they fight.

It also is by itself, none of the other ones are alone like this.

Plus, the floor in the backround of the shot it a circular pattern. This has not been shown around any of the other pods.

Added to that, the little buttons can be seen for a brief moment when Yoda is trying to grap on(about a second before the close up of Yoda's nails scratching the side of the pod) and they are the same as the ones on the center pod during the lightsaber fight.

If all that wasn't enough, Yoda crashed by some of the pods Sidious through at him. The angle these were thrown at shows Yoda is on the other side of the chamber.

And the absolute proof that Yoda fell on the center pod it that if you play it frame bby frame, as Yoda is falling, the pod he was holding on to is held up by a large pole. Only the pod in the center of the chamber had this feature. It is almost impossible to see unless you play it slowed down.

The Creator
Ahh, but Yoda only uses the force for defensive purposes and also wasn't trying to kill Dooku but capture him. Not to mention the little green dude is 874 years old. But I will agree that Sidious had more potential than Yoda I mean look at his Dark Empire version.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
His eyes AREN'T closed.

And Yoda isn't having trouble with the one pod; he's spinning it to gain velocity. I just watched it three times to make sure.

Are you sure? The status of my television is in question, considering it was nailed by the storms that recently occured here (I live in Tennesee) but it doesn't seem that his eyes are open.

So, Sidious was laughing his ass off while watching Yoda lift a pod back up at him, and decided to do nothing to stop it? I'm not so sure...

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Ianus
About the lightning war... Sidious zaps Yoda with one hand. Out goes the lightsaber. Yoda then reaches UP and grabs the lightning. Sidious uses both hands now, and Yoda blocks with both hands.

Sidious then steps forward. He seems to be cackling with delight. Yoda is leaning backwards, appearing pained. Then, he gets a loot of Resolve (tm). He pushes forward. Sidious suddenly looks pained (And sounds it too) Then there's the explosion. Sidious goes head over heels backwards. Yoda is not onscreen for the explosion. Indeed, all we see is the next shot of him falling down. So it was not Yoda flying more. That's bullshit.

This is the post my previous reply was to. Gosh, you guys made like ten post in 2 minutes mad lol

Ianus
Uh, he fell and grabbed the center pod. From there he hit another pod and skidded over. Point?

Escape81
Originally posted by The Creator
Ahh, but Yoda only uses the force for defensive purposes and also wasn't trying to kill Dooku but capture him. Not to mention the little green dude is 874 years old. But I will agree that Sidious had more potential than Yoda I mean look at his Dark Empire version.

This is true. Count Dooku is uber-l33t but is personally overpowered in these parts, though there are those who make excellent arguments in his defense. No, I don't believe Yoda was trying to kill Dooku, merely exhaust him to the point where he would surrender. Yoda was, on the otherhand, strangely trying to gain the offensive against Sidious, who we know he desired to kill.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Escape81
Are you sure? The status of my television is in question, considering it was nailed by the storms that recently occured here (I live in Tennesee) but it doesn't seem that his eyes are open.

So, Sidious was laughing his ass off while watching Yoda lift a pod back up at him, and decided to do nothing to stop it? I'm not so sure...

Sorry about your TV, his eyes are open, I just checked.


He may have had some crack on his hand though, as he appeared to be sniffing his hand. big grin

Ianus
Well, there IS PIS, Escape. I think we can both agree that there are instances where Force usage SHOULD have been used. If Yoda can catch a pod coming at him like that, Sidious should reasonably be able to do the same with one coming at him slowly. Also, Yoda can block lightning with his hands like it ain't no thang, but he got "surprised" in the office. I think it's more a matter of dramatic neccessity.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Ianus
Uh, he fell and grabbed the center pod. From there he hit another pod and skidded over. Point?

Point is that Sidious was only knocked a few feet by the blast, while Yoda flew over thirty.

Actually, he hits the same pod he grabbed on to. Those wall things him and Sidious are standing on as they fought with sabers is what he hits, then he roles and grabs onto the edge of it.


You know what else, I don't remember SIdious ever losing hsi saber. Did he and I missed it(several times)?

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorry about your TV, his eyes are open, I just checked.


He may have had some crack on his hand though, as he appeared to be sniffing his hand. big grin

It's okay. We're getting a new one tomorrow. But in this case, I'll have to rely on you for visual aid, my friend. stick out tongue

As I said, it wouldn't be really... Sidious-like for him to have plainly observed Yoda chuck a pod back, and then do nothing about it until the last moment, considering Sidious is very self-conscious and prefers to live whenever remotely possible. Perhaps he merely was enjoying his laugh to the point where he wasn't paying attention to our little green hero... Yoda hates when he's not attained to. stick out tongue

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Escape81
It's okay. We're getting a new one tomorrow. But in this case, I'll have to rely on you for visual aid, my friend. stick out tongue

As I said, it wouldn't be really... Sidious-like for him to have plainly observed Yoda chuck a pod back, and then do nothing about it until the last moment, considering Sidious is very self-conscious and prefers to live whenever remotely possible. Perhaps he merely was enjoying his laugh to the point where he wasn't paying attention to our little green hero... Yoda hates when he's not attained to. stick out tongue

I can just imagine Sidious sitting in his chair, smoking marijuana or something that slows his mind down and then regretting it during the fight with Yoda since there are so many times he stands and lets himself get hit.

Ianus
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Point is that Sidious was only knocked a few feet by the blast, while Yoda flew over thirty.

Actually, he hits the same pod he grabbed on to. Those wall things him and Sidious are standing on as they fought with sabers is what he hits, then he roles and grabs onto the edge of it.


You know what else, I don't remember SIdious ever losing hsi saber. Did he and I missed it(several times)?

I've watched it, man. I don't see where Yoda was propelled farther then Sidious. He falls straight down. If you are pushed back and you fall down, you will have some horizontal angle added to your fall, period. The center pod was a ways down from the pod they had the battle in. This is not evidence of superior Force power, sorry.

And it's inbetween scenes he loses his blade. Official script has Yoda disarming him but going to a lower pod for some unspecified reason. The movie instead flickers over to Obi and Ani, and back again.

Escape81
True, Janus.

I have said that Yoda was surprised in Palpatine's office, but he did bring his hands up in a last ditch effort to defend himself. But he was overpowered and smashed against the wall.

Also. Both our main villain and our uber Yoda don't like to pay attention with one another. For example:

Incident A:

Sidious raised his hands very slowly, and Yoda simply stood there. If I were Yoda, I would cleverly deduce that when I walked into my enemy's stronghold - this enemy being a Sith Lord, also - I would deduce that he would be a severe threat to my life and that he would attempt to attack me whenever he could. I would cleverly deduce that, being Dooku's old master, he would also know all - and even more - of Dooku's tricks. Like that old Sith Lightning technique. Thusly, I would defend myself should this cowled Sith Lord ever raise his hands at me, assuming he would chuck lightning at me, and not attempt to give me the finger.

Incident B:

Yoda caught a pod - in front of Sidious's own open eyes. Sidious then decides to break into a jolly good laugh, assuming a little green elf catching a pod quadruple his size must be immensely humorous. That same Sith Lord then apparently forgets that his opponent is immensely deadly, and possesses the desire to kill him. So he decides to not pay attention, despite the creature having a very heavy blunt object that could be used to crush vital bones and organs that the Sith Lord is required to live with. Thusly, it is my belief that the Sith Lord should've simply shook his head and chucked another pod instead of enjoying a good laugh at an inconveniant time.

Ianus
And the pod they're fighting on? It's moving. You can see the background moving. The pod is probably activated for whatever reason and is moving close to center, like the senators do when they want to address an issue.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Ianus
I've watched it, man. I don't see where Yoda was propelled farther then Sidious. He falls straight down. If you are pushed back and you fall down, you will have some horizontal angle added to your fall, period. The center pod was a ways down from the pod they had the battle in. This is not evidence of superior Force power, sorry.

And it's inbetween scenes he loses his blade. Official script has Yoda disarming him but going to a lower pod for some unspecified reason. The movie instead flickers over to Obi and Ani, and back again.

Okay, because I thought he lost it, but coudn't find where.

Notice that when Yoda is falling toward the center pod, he is falling almost straight down. This doesn't make much sense, probably an error since they haven't prefected digital animation yet, but Yoda is shown as already over the centerpod before he begins to fall really fast. Yoda did for sure fly back farther than Sidious, even without the horizontal add-on.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
I've watched it, man. I don't see where Yoda was propelled farther then Sidious. He falls straight down. If you are pushed back and you fall down, you will have some horizontal angle added to your fall, period. The center pod was a ways down from the pod they had the battle in. This is not evidence of superior Force power, sorry.

And it's inbetween scenes he loses his blade. Official script has Yoda disarming him but going to a lower pod for some unspecified reason. The movie instead flickers over to Obi and Ani, and back again.

Oh yes. I recall Darth Somebody pointing that out. So, assuming not to be the fanboy he became, I will point out that this is true. The original script of AOTC displayed Yoda flat out owning Dooku to a degree that is worse than what the ROTS script displayed. The AOTC script was not used, and though Yoda seemed to be the superior duelist, he did not ever overcome Count Dooku, nor was he able to slay the renegade Jedi. At the same time, it would be rather curious for one to disarm one's opponent whom one wants to kill, then being able to kill one's opponent, and mysteriously leaving the scene.

Curious. Curious. Perhaps this inconsistency is a good reason why Lucas left that bit out of the movie.

Ianus
Originally posted by Escape81
Oh yes. I recall Darth Somebody pointing that out. So, assuming not to be the fanboy he became, I will point out that this is true. The original script of AOTC displayed Yoda flat out owning Dooku to a degree that is worse than what the ROTS script displayed. The AOTC script was not used, and though Yoda seemed to be the superior duelist, he did not ever overcome Count Dooku, nor was he able to slay the renegade Jedi. At the same time, it would be rather curious for one to disarm one's opponent whom one wants to kill, then being able to kill one's opponent, and mysteriously leaving the scene.

Curious. Curious. Perhaps this inconsistency is a good reason why Lucas left that bit out of the movie.

What's the alternative, Escape? Sidious tucked his saber away and Yoda jumped down for no good tactical reason?

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Ianus
And the pod they're fighting on? It's moving. You can see the background moving. The pod is probably activated for whatever reason and is moving close to center, like the senators do when they want to address an issue.

It didn't seem like it was moving towards the center, and it certainly didn't make it a full thirty feet.

Ianus
Thirty feet? You measured?

No, seriously... It's moving. This could be CGI screw up (Since it it unlikely the entire set exists like that from all angles) or bad editing. In any case, the background moves, even when the camera isn't moving.

Darth_Glentract
It does seem likely that Yoda wasn't trying to kill Dooku. Even with padawans that have fallen to the darkside, the masters have always failed to kill their apprentices. (Mace didn't want to hurt Depa as he fought her. Obi-wan didn't walk up and remove Anakins head).

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Ianus
Thirty feet? You measured?

No, seriously... It's moving. This could be CGI screw up (Since it it unlikely the entire set exists like that from all angles) or bad editing. In any case, the background moves, even when the camera isn't moving.

Yeah, I measured(what can I say, it's been a slow day).

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
What's the alternative, Escape? Sidious tucked his saber away and Yoda jumped down for no good tactical reason?

Now, now, Janus. No need to be snooty about it. I simply said that the move would not make sense, and it is more logical that Palpatine did indeed 'tuck' the blade away, but only to shift to ranged assault, where he could potentially find a greater advantage to exploit. Let's face it. Saber-to-saber battle was getting neither of them anywhere.

The same question I pose to you is: Why would Yoda, who wants to kill Palpatine and has a limited time to do it, jump away from his opponent when he is a position to do so?

Answer me that.

Ianus
Originally posted by Escape81
Now, now, Janus. No need to be snooty about it. I simply said that the move would not make sense, and it is more logical that Palpatine did indeed 'tuck' the blade away, but only to shift to ranged assault, where he could potentially find a greater advantage to exploit. Let's face it. Saber-to-saber battle was getting neither of them anywhere.

The same question I pose to you is: Why would Yoda, who wants to kill Palpatine and has a limited time to do it, jump away from his opponent when he is a position to do so?

Answer me that.

Good point. Someone find the missing footage and we'll analyze it then.

Darth_Glentract
I got another question, why didn't Yoda and Obi-wan simply toss a bomb in Sidious' office?

Ianus
OT overrides such logic, young Glentract.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
Good point. Someone find the missing footage and we'll analyze it then.

Unfortunately for either of us, the scene in question isn't among the DVD's assortment of deleted scenes. There are times I wish that the Palpatine v. Yoda battle was not intermingled with Anakin and Obi-Wan's... Does anyone know the title for Yoda's duel with Sidious? Maul v. Kenobi and Jinn was the Duel of Fates. So what's Yoda v. Sidious?

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I got another question, why didn't Yoda and Obi-wan simply toss a bomb in Sidious' office?

The true questions are these:

a) How did Yoda know where to find Sidious exactly, considering the Sith Lord was adept at shielding himself from the Jedi.

b) Why isn't it, that the Grand Convocation Chamber, and the Senate building as a whole, not have multiple security censors that would detect Yoda's presence through a variety of means, to the point where alarms would be triggered that alert Sidious to Yoda's presence?

Ianus
Midget versus Geriatric?

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Escape81
The true questions are these:

a) How did Yoda know where to find Sidious exactly, considering the Sith Lord was adept at shielding himself from the Jedi.

b) Why isn't it, that the Grand Convocation Chamber, and the Senate building as a whole, not have multiple security censors that would detect Yoda's presence through a variety of means, to the point where alarms would be triggered that alert Sidious to Yoda's presence?

Sidious probably couldn't shield himself when drawing heavily on the force, allowing Yoda to figure out who he was when he fought Mace.

Yoda can cloak himself in the force. The camera wouldn't see him.

Borbarad
Oh no...not that Yoda vs Sidious thing again... wink

a) "Throwing pods"
Why I love your detailed observation of the scene I think you have still missed a little detail. Those Senate pods are designed to fly around. The amount of force energy needed to "throw" them is thereby very little. Basically it's enough to use the controls and make them fly up and then turn the controls of and force push them a little bit to make them smash down. In the few moments where Yoda dodges the pods being thrown at him (and jumps over them) you can see that some pods are still flying around above him.
The pods that are thrown down by Sidious always do ballistical movements downwards and here you have two differents to the pod thrown by Yoda.
First: Yoda is stopping a pod being thrown at him which would take far more energy than throwing it down.
Second: When he throws it back at Sidious it's moving up in a straight line movement which again would take more energy than throwing it downwards in a ballistical movement.

From the things that can seen there Yoda > Sidious.

b) "Force fight"
We can see that Yoda did pretty much defeat Sidious in the lightning battle he was in a position of disadvantage, Sidious even pushed forward and then Yoda recovered and pushed Sidious backward (Sidiou was nearly falling on his back right before the explosion happened).

Again Yoda > Sidious

c) "Yoda being pushed back further because he landed on the central pod"
Well sorry Glentract but this is stupid. In the first few pictures of the "pod throwing sequence" you can see that Yoda is jumping down from the central pod while Sidious is maybe on even level with the central pod. Then Sidious is also jumping down from his position when Yoda threw the pod at him. There is no chance that Yoda could have landed on the central pod after being blasted off by the explosion and falling down for 2 or 3 seconds.
And when he finally reaches the bottom of the Senate chamber, you can even see that he's lying very close to one side of it and not in the middle which would have been the case if he has fallen down from the central pod. So the explosion threw Sidious farther than Yoda.

Still Yoda > Sidious.

@Escape81:


How the hell would Sidious manage to get his blade away while fighting Yoda on very close range ? The moment he would have disabled it, Yoda would have wasted him. The ROTS script provides the the only logical explanataion. Yoda disarmed Sidious and Sidious recovered with force lightning knocking Yoda of for some seconds that he used to get away. In any other situation Yoda would have cut him down or followed him which he didn't as we saw that Sidious somehow managed to gain the "higher ground" and was on the higher ground when Yoda jumped away from the central pod.

And to answer your questions:
Sidious had no reason to cloud his presence longer because all Jedi on Coruscant were killed (Anakin's attack on the temple) and he didn't think that one of the Jedi could have survived Order 66. Therefore Yoda was able to sense him in the building.

And have you ever seen any security devices in the Senate building ? I didn't and even when their were some Yoda could have tricked them.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh no...not that Yoda vs Sidious thing again... wink

a) "Throwing pods"
Why I love your detailed observation of the scene I think you have still missed a little detail. Those Senate pods are designed to fly around. The amount of force energy needed to "throw" them is thereby very little. Basically it's enough to use the controls and make them fly up and then turn the controls of and force push them a little bit to make them smash down. In the few moments where Yoda dodges the pods being thrown at him (and jumps over them) you can see that some pods are still flying around above him.

Turns out the people who have been talking about this for the last few hours are a step ahead of you. You infact, have missed a little detail.

Only some Senate Pods were designed to fly. You can actually see the beams breaking as he is ripping them from their mounting on the walls.

Because of this, they have no controls, no repulsors, and are opperated entirely on Sidious' own power.

There is a simple explanation for the pods above Sidious, he put those up there. He is moving mutiple pods at a time.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The pods that are thrown down by Sidious always do ballistical movements downwards and here you have two differents to the pod thrown by Yoda.
First: Yoda is stopping a pod being thrown at him which would take far more energy than throwing it down.
Second: When he throws it back at Sidious it's moving up in a straight line movement which again would take more energy than throwing it downwards in a ballistical movement.

Once again, way ahead of you.

First: Yoda is only stopping the energy, not creating it.

Second: Sidious also throws several of the pods into the air in an upwards motion. Notice him waving his hand back and three pods fly high into the air above him. "Like a cobra posing for an attack" as Escape would say.

Also, notice that the only time Sidious did not bring the pod over him was the time Yoda caught it, the rest of the times, Yoda was forced to dodge the pods.

Originally posted by Borbarad
From the things that can seen there Yoda > Sidious.

If they were true, yes, but they are not. Sidious > Yoda

Originally posted by Borbarad
b) "Force fight"
We can see that Yoda did pretty much defeat Sidious in the lightning battle he was in a position of disadvantage, Sidious even pushed forward and then Yoda recovered and pushed Sidious backward (Sidiou was nearly falling on his back right before the explosion happened).

Again Yoda > Sidious

Again, you are wrong. Yoda has both feet planted on the ground. Yoda was in no disadvantageous position.

We can also see quite easily if we slow the video down that Sidious is still almost completely upright before the explosion. The camera angle of Sidious' close-up makes it look like he is leaning back, but the side view clearly shows that he is not.

Again Sidious > Yoda

Originally posted by Borbarad
c) "Yoda being pushed back further because he landed on the central pod"
Well sorry Glentract but this is stupid. In the first few pictures of the "pod throwing sequence" you can see that Yoda is jumping down from the central pod while Sidious is maybe on even level with the central pod. Then Sidious is also jumping down from his position when Yoda threw the pod at him. There is no chance that Yoda could have landed on the central pod after being blasted off by the explosion and falling down for 2 or 3 seconds.

Gosh, I might as well start copy, pasting "wrong".

Apparently you forgot that the scene changes for nearly a minute, during that time, Yoda and Sidious move away from the Center pod. You can tell they are on a different pod because the center one has two semi-wall things on it. The one Yoda starts on is not that pod.

Sidious does fall, but by this time, they were hundreds of feet above the center pod. The were still above it at this time.

Let me post the proof I posted before, but you apparently neglected to read.

"Look at the pod Yoda lands on. It a unique pod, none of the others in the chamber look like it. It is the center pod, shown for only a second or two.

YOu can tell this because it has those two simi-wall things that Yoda and Sidious are standing on when they fight.

It also is by itself, none of the other ones are alone like this.

Plus, the floor in the backround of the shot it a circular pattern. This has not been shown around any of the other pods.

Added to that, the little buttons can be seen for a brief moment when Yoda is trying to grap on(about a second before the close up of Yoda's nails scratching the side of the pod) and they are the same as the ones on the center pod during the lightsaber fight.

If all that wasn't enough, Yoda crashed by some of the pods Sidious through at him. The angle these were thrown at shows Yoda is on the other side of the chamber.

And the absolute proof that Yoda fell on the center pod it that if you play it frame bby frame, as Yoda is falling, the pod he was holding on to is held up by a large pole. Only the pod in the center of the chamber had this feature. It is almost impossible to see unless you play it slowed down."

Originally posted by Borbarad
And when he finally reaches the bottom of the Senate chamber, you can even see that he's lying very close to one side of it and not in the middle which would have been the case if he has fallen down from the central pod. So the explosion threw Sidious farther than Yoda.

Still Yoda > Sidious.

Wrong. You assumed Yoda did not land on the central pod, which I have proven the he did.

You assumed that Yoda fell straight down from the pod he grabbed onto. You can clearly see that he did not and that he his a crashed pod after he hit the center pod and bounced another fifteen or so feet.

You also missed that the bottom of the Senate Chamber is only about 75 feet across. Yoda did hit the center pod and was thrown back father than Sidious.

Still Sidious > Yoda.



It seems to me that you didn't read the prior post in this thread, which in one form or another answers everysingle argument you made. This was what caused my sarcastic tone, sorry if it offended you.

Darth Faunus
I'm going to address only the 'zOMG yuda went flieyng frter dan cideus' points lying about here. Keep in mind that I'm watching the scene as I type this.

When Yoda makes his tremendous jump up to the Emperor's pod, he lands on teh very edge, outside of the guard-rail. A fraction of a second later, Palpatine, who is standing at the other side of the pod, fires a one-handed bolt of lightning, which knocks away Yoda's lightsaber. The said Jedi is visibly knocked off balance, but he still 'grabs' this bolt, and begins his little 'absorbtion' sequence. Sidious launches yet another barrage of lighting at Yoda with his other hand. Here, Yoda's upper body is jolted backwards, and he is visibly struggling to both contain the lightning and keep his balance.

This is the key part: Sidious walks around the chairs, crossing over to Yoda's side of the pod. Now, he has two rows of seats behind him, as well as a good 80% of the pod's diameter. Then, Yoda gets his 'Prepare for Pwn3ge!!' look, and shoves forward the explosive energies. Sidious is like 'WTF?!', and starts cringing and moaning, his eyes wide with pain and fear. Finally, the collection of volatile, extremely powerful Force energies explodes, and the two are sent flying.

Yoda is sent off-screen, but Sidious, ah. The Emperor is flung backwards, into the chairs, flips hugely, and skids off the edge of the pod. So what happened?

Sidious slammed into the chairs, which managed to absorb the majority of his momentum. But still, he flips over them, crashes into the far side of the pod, and slips off, just barely getting a grasp on the guard-rail. Even after losing almost all of his momentum, and having the rest of it redirected upwards, so he was rising instead of flying back, he covered a distance equivalent almost to the entire pod's diameter.

Yoda's fall was completely unbroken, until he was falling straight down instead of backwards. Had Sidious not had the chairs to stop him, he would have been sent clean off the pod, as far or farther than Yoda. Interesting, considering he ways a good 4x as much as Yoda.

Darth_Glentract
Yoda still flys over 30 feet. Sidious flys far less than that, around 8 feet. No way is some chairs going to stop him from going another 22 feet.

You would see if you play it in slow-mo that he doesn't really go off-screen. You can still see him and he flys much farther than Sidious would have, even without the chairs.

Ianus
This is getting ridiculous. THis is just more factionism in the making.

Escape81
If one analyzes the scene enough, one would notice that the difference in Force powers between Yoda and Palpatine are not that much apart. If you will notice, both have moments when they appear to be superior to the other.

Again, Sidious lifts three pods directly into the air, and he does so effortlessly. Then, he jerks his left arm back behind him, and one of the pods flies back, in accordance to his arm, thus the vivid analogy of a cobra rearing back to strike.

So not only does he lift more than Yoda, but he does so in direct opposition to gravity. I did not see a well-laid opposition to this problem. Nai, Janus, or even Faunus. If you have something that can explain this, then please do so. I'm not challenging you; but it would appear that in this scene holds the key. Sidious uses the Force to lift more than Yoda, against more gravity, and he does it easier.

If this can't be argued, it would appear that either:

Yoda = Sidious in Force powers.

Or

Sidious > Yoda in Force powers.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
This is getting ridiculous. THis is just more factionism in the making.

Not really. I, for one, still consider you to be very much the person who took me under his wing and who helped me around here ala, my own Yoda. stick out tongue

But at the same time, I'm combating against the problem here. It is as if the entire forums have been indoctrinated that because Yoda won the Lightning War, that he must be a vastly superior Force user. I for one also believed it. But Glentract has just landed a point that not even you, Janus, has seemed to be able to combat. In the pod scene, Sidious displays a greater use of the Force than Yoda.

If you can argue against it, please do. If not, then it would appear that Yoda and Sidious are truly equals afterall, despite those who don't wish to believe it.

Escape81
Originally posted by Borbarad
How the hell would Sidious manage to get his blade away while fighting Yoda on very close range ? The moment he would have disabled it, Yoda would have wasted him. The ROTS script provides the the only logical explanataion. Yoda disarmed Sidious and Sidious recovered with force lightning knocking Yoda of for some seconds that he used to get away. In any other situation Yoda would have cut him down or followed him which he didn't as we saw that Sidious somehow managed to gain the "higher ground" and was on the higher ground when Yoda jumped away from the central pod.

a) Consider. If Sidious managed to get away from Yoda, and put a bit of distance between them, he could manage to disengage his blade and then initiate the pod-chucking contest. Forgive me, but Yoda did not dominate their lightsaber duel, and considering how he was unable to break through Sidious's defenses, it is very possible that the Dark Lord could gain a momentary advantage to escape from Yoda and transfer the duel to that of ranged assaults instead of melee.

This is logical.

b) No. The ROTS script does not make sense in this part. It does not say that Sidious blasted Yoda with lightning when Yoda disarmed him, at least the script I'm reading at the IMSDB website doesn't. It says Yoda disarmed him and then jumped down to a lower pod for no reason.

So the question I present to you, the very same one I presented to Janus, is this:

Why would Yoda (who's objective is to kill Sidious) not do the deed when he disarmed him (and Yoda has a limited time to do it) and jump down to a lower pod?

I hope you can answer this. If not, it would appear that the script is illogical and very stupid considering Yoda's objectives and his timeframe.

As for the other questions, they were sarcastic. stick out tongue

Ianus
Originally posted by Escape81
Not really. I, for one, still consider you to be very much the person who took me under his wing and who helped me around here ala, my own Yoda. stick out tongue

But at the same time, I'm combating against the problem here. It is as if the entire forums have been indoctrinated that because Yoda won the Lightning War, that he must be a vastly superior Force user. I for one also believed it. But Glentract has just landed a point that not even you, Janus, has seemed to be able to combat. In the pod scene, Sidious displays a greater use of the Force than Yoda.

If you can argue against it, please do. If not, then it would appear that Yoda and Sidious are truly equals afterall, despite those who don't wish to believe it.

Well, a good deal of my own stance was on the Force lightning war. I'll be the first to say I felt it was a showing of raw Force power. I'm also operating under the idea that just because Yoda never picked up three pods at once doesn't neccessarily mean he can't. I've given you a similar instance when I said that Sidious didn't (And based on the logic that has been followed here) can't stop the pod coming at him, whereas Yoda stopped one flying more than twice as fast and coming downhill instantly. Instantly. I am not joking on that.

That is impressive, and Sidious' three pods were also very impressive. However, because we're all sampling and there's a ton of disagreement on the use of pod throwing and catching and its abilities (And most certainly there is more instances of Sidious chucking pods than there is Yoda) it seems to me a clear indicator of their Force powers was the beam war. Sidious had the intent to kill Yoda. Yoda was defending himself, until that moment when he suddenly decided he would do more than that and he pushed the balance back from him despite being half-bent over and grimacing before. I'm of a mind to think that Yoda restrains his power more than Sidious does, and it most certainly does not make sense that they would be so evenly matched considering that Yoda has been practising the Force for so many centuries.

Now, lightsaber combat- I watched that last night too (Since I never pass up a good saber battle even when reviewing for other purposes). Sidious had a longer blade and a central position with even footing and obviously more physical power since he is two and a half or so times Yoda's size.

Yoda kept up. He hopped from side to side, he parried blows and rained blows of his own. He trapped Sidious' saber at one point and reasonably could have killed the Sith lord at that time (You might recall it... they zoom in on Yoda for the saberlock...) Why didn't Yoda kill his opponent? The OT. His fate is sealed, but that doesn't neccessarily make him equal to or worse than Sidious. Anakin was better in Obi-Wan in lightsaber technique and raw Force power, yet Obi-Wan outmanuevered him and beat him decisively. Sometimes the little kid ont he playground punches the big bully in the nose and gets a KO.

Darth Faunus
This is getting ridiculous. No one's going to budge, which should be obvious, and so I don't understand the point of any further debates.

Escape81
Janus, I could almost agree with that. But Yoda was not holding back. I'm sorry, but he went in the building to kill Sidious. This was his ultimate goal, whereas Sidious's goal was to survive. Yoda was letting all out.

In their saber duel, Sidious kept a central position save when he moved into the Chancellor's podium. At that moment, Sidious and Yoda both exchanged the position on the pod. Sidious and Yoda both went from offensive to defensive at various times.

a) The physical strength part can be countermanned. Yoda managed to use the Force to imbue him with such strength that he defeated Dooku in a saberlock, who is even larger and more bulky than Sidious. The physical strength factor isn't much. Yoda has enough Force power to make up the difference.

b) You forget that Sidious deflected all of Yoda's thrusts and blows as well. Their battle showed an equal amount of ability between both of the combatants. Sidious and Yoda both went on the offensive and the defensive on the podium, and neither managed to land a blow to one another.

c) No. The OT ensured Sidious's survival, but not the fact that Yoda did not kill him during the duel. Lucas orchestrated the fight so that both of them survived. If Yoda, during the duel, had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have - and not because of the OT - which is becoming a very lethargic excuse.

So you're telling me that when Obi-Wan could've finished off Anakin when he left him to die, that he simply didn't do it because: Gee, Anakin is needed for the OT, so I better let him live? No. The point is that the duels were orchestrated for neither combatant to die. If Yoda had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have, as Yoda was the one who, out of the two, wished ill intent, and was willing to get it at all costs.

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
This is getting ridiculous. No one's going to budge, which should be obvious, and so I don't understand the point of any further debates.

Not to me. I am willing to budge. If you notice, I disagreed with Darth Glentract until he provided me with proof that managed to convince me to change my opinion. His point was an exceptional one, and it is something that neither Janus nor Nai have been able to successfully oppose, despite their staggering debating ability. I'm not being sarcastic when I say this. But it is simply nothing you can argue around. During the pod battle, Sidious used the Force better than Yoda did.

Darth Faunus
Originally posted by Escape81
Janus, I could almost agree with that. But Yoda was not holding back. I'm sorry, but he went in the building to kill Sidious. This was his ultimate goal, whereas Sidious's goal was to survive. Yoda was letting all out.

In their saber duel, Sidious kept a central position save when he moved into the Chancellor's podium. At that moment, Sidious and Yoda both exchanged the position on the pod. Sidious and Yoda both went from offensive to defensive at various times.

a) The physical strength part can be countermanned. Yoda managed to use the Force to imbue him with such strength that he defeated Dooku in a saberlock, who is even larger and more bulky than Sidious. The physical strength factor isn't much. Yoda has enough Force power to make up the difference.

Well according to you, Sidious is as strong or stronger than Yoda in terms of physical strength. So wouldn't he be able to augment his strength as well, to levels far beyond those of Yoda?



True. But then again Sidious managed to stay in the center of podium for the majority of the duel, while Yoda was forced to leap around the edge to gain a solid footing. And even then, the Jedi Master managed to break into the middle. So even from a vantage point, Sidious couldn't best Yoda. and in the end, when Yoda broke through, he had to flee.



Escape, Yoda is a Jedi. And even in life and death situations, magnified to a galactic scale, there are things that he absolutely cannot do. After 900 years of following the Code, it's like reflex to him. There are just some things that he will not do.

According to Dark Rendezvous, Yoda has delved into the Dark Arts in his past, but only to familiarize himself with it, and to learn to defend himself from it. So it is safe to say that he has knowledge and power that we don't ever get to see in the movies. And do you know what would have happened had he gone all out? I'll give you three guesses.

Escape81
a) This is possible. It's true, I have no way of arguing it. But then again, why didn't Count Dooku as well? Perhaps it is a trick known only to Yoda in his many years as a Jedi? Who is to say? Perhaps Sidious simply did not think to do it? Anything is possible. But why did neither Sidious or Dooku augment their already superior strength to help them overcome Yoda?

b) Sidious managed to maintain a stationary position longer than Yoda, this is true. But then again, Yoda really doesn't ever seem to be skilled at maintaining a stationary position, since Ataru is the style of immense acrobatics. It is quite possible that Yoda had to maintain a status of the offensive to keep up with Sidious. But I will tell you, when Yoda did manage to break to the middle, he was forced back again. As I said, the difference isn't much. Yoda and Sidious both rained blows down on one another, and none ever landed.

c) According to Dark Rendezvous, Yoda has killed. Indeed, the Jedi will kill if necessary. Considering how Sidious managed to purge the galaxy of the Jedi, and threatened to ensnare the galaxy in his tyranny, especially to a Jedi like Yoda - who has delved in the Dark Side - I'm most certain that he would've killed Sidious.

Which is my point. Many people like to point out that Sidious attempted to flee. Thus proving that his main concern was maintaining his own life, instead of killing Yoda. Yoda stopped him, and made Sidious stay. Now, why would he do that if Yoda did not intend to put Sidious down for good? Why go at all.

"Destroy the Sith, we must" - Yoda.

Remember that quote Faunus. Yoda went in to kill Sidious, and I'm very shocked that you don't think he intended to.

Darth Faunus
Lol! I believe fully that he went in to kill Sidious, Escape. I would never contradict that.

My point was that there is knowledge and power in the back of Yoda's mind that we haven't seen in the movies, and for good reason. Yoda will never use these powers, because of the restrictions of the Code, and so will never be as vicious, aggressive, and downright dangerous as he could be.

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Lol! I believe fully that he went in to kill Sidious, Escape. I would never contradict that.

My point was that there is knowledge and power in the back of Yoda's mind that we haven't seen in the movies, and for good reason. Yoda will never use these powers, because of the restrictions of the Code, and so will never be as vicious, aggressive, and downright dangerous as he could be.

In short, you mean Dark Side Yoda. Well, that is understandable. This is, perhaps, where he learned to defend himself from the lightning assault. And thanks for clearing up the Yoda-went-in-to-kill-Sidious debate. I was about to throw something at my computer.

Please read my other points and give me your rebuttle. Like I said. The margin between Sidious and Yoda would be measured in hairs not inches.

Ianus
Janus, I could almost agree with that. But Yoda was not holding back. I'm sorry, but he went in the building to kill Sidious. This was his ultimate goal, whereas Sidious's goal was to survive. Yoda was letting all out.

Faunus covered this best. Yoda was not holding back to kill Sidious, but he most certainly wasn't fighting the same way. The Code (Which Yoda himself set down and followed for centuries) holds him back.

And really, you tell me... How was Yoda able to suddenly turn that lightning back on Sidious if they were anywhere near equal? I'd like to hear a theory on this from you. If Jim and Bob are of similar physical strength and they are pushing against one another, there will be no give. But when Bob starts to push on Jim, Jim is leaning back, and then suddenly Jim pushes Bob forward... this is not equal strength.



In their saber duel, Sidious kept a central position save when he moved into the Chancellor's podium. At that moment, Sidious and Yoda both exchanged the position on the pod. Sidious and Yoda both went from offensive to defensive at various times.

I think the point was that Sidious, despite mostly keeping a central flat location and having a longer reach, was unable to overcome Yoda in combat. And since it's up in the air, you can say he either put away his saber or lost it. Neither scenario proves a case for anything. Yoda is clearly able to contend with Sidious very well despite his small stature, weakness, old age, and short reach, all the while manuevering rapidly on a slick rounded surface.

That is friggin' amazing.


a) The physical strength part can be countermanned. Yoda managed to use the Force to imbue him with such strength that he defeated Dooku in a saberlock, who is even larger and more bulky than Sidious. The physical strength factor isn't much. Yoda has enough Force power to make up the difference.

Yoda says a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. It is reasonable to assume the same works for a Sith. If Sidious was greater in Force powers, why did he not augment his strength even more and simply overpower Yoda?

Also, Dooku has more Force power (Or perhaps mastery even) than Obi-Wan. He picked the guy up in combat and chucks him like a ragdoll. Now, Yoda is no Sith. He will not choke someone. But Sidious has no such prohibitions and yet he did not once try and use anything besides the pods (When he had distance) and the lightning (when Yoda was too close and he was saberless).

And if Sidious simply tucked away his saber I would think he would have kept it drawn when Yoda came back at him.


b) You forget that Sidious deflected all of Yoda's thrusts and blows as well. Their battle showed an equal amount of ability between both of the combatants. Sidious and Yoda both went on the offensive and the defensive on the podium, and neither managed to land a blow to one another.

See above. Sidious had a significant advantage and from what I'm seeing lost his saber and was unable to overcome Yoda. If you really want to say they're equal, fine. I disagree with this entirely, but I don't feel like arguing something that is this evident to me.


c) No. The OT ensured Sidious's survival, but not the fact that Yoda did not kill him during the duel. Lucas orchestrated the fight so that both of them survived. If Yoda, during the duel, had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have - and not because of the OT - which is becoming a very lethargic excuse.

Lethargic excuse? It's fate. If Anakin is meant to be let's just say, king of Manaan... no one can prevent this. Because Star Wars works backwards and has an established timeline, there is NO WAY characters in the story can operate outside of the nature of their predetermined fate. It's not a "lethargic excuse"; it's being undermined by predestiny.

Because Yoda didn't kill Sidious doesn't preclude neccessarily that he couldn't. And the presence of an original trilogy where both lives DOES mean that neither can kill the other, regardless of abilities.


So you're telling me that when Obi-Wan could've finished off Anakin when he left him to die, that he simply didn't do it because: Gee, Anakin is needed for the OT, so I better let him live? No. The point is that the duels were orchestrated for neither combatant to die. If Yoda had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have, as Yoda was the one who, out of the two, wished ill intent, and was willing to get it at all costs.

Uh, it's pretty damn obvious that GL isn't gonna rewrite the series just because Yoda can beat Sidious. The OT is already written and the PT has to adhere to it. Neither one could die, but Yoda was from what I've seen superior. And that's where we stand. This isn't an excuse, it's the truth.

Darth Faunus
Originally posted by Escape81
a) This is possible. It's true, I have no way of arguing it. But then again, why didn't Count Dooku as well? Perhaps it is a trick known only to Yoda in his many years as a Jedi? Who is to say? Perhaps Sidious simply did not think to do it? Anything is possible. But why did neither Sidious or Dooku augment their already superior strength to help them overcome Yoda?

I don't think Yoda is the only one who is capable of augmenting his strength. But possibly he can augment it to greater heights due to a superior power level?



Or perhaps Sidious needed to stay in the middle to avoid being pushed off the edge by Yoda's assault. But once Yoda did manage to break into the middle, I don't remember him being forced to the edge again. He caught Sidiouss in two saber-locks, contesting the position, but he was never forced out.



I believe we've cleared this little mess up.

And I agree with your 'hairs-not-inches' statement. But I hold Yoda 'hairs' higher than Sidious. I don't mean to be stubborn, but I have yet to encounter truly substantial evidence in the Emperor's favor. I'm sure you feel the same about Yoda, however.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I'm going to address only the 'zOMG yuda went flieyng frter dan cideus' points lying about here. Keep in mind that I'm watching the scene as I type this.

When Yoda makes his tremendous jump up to the Emperor's pod, he lands on teh very edge, outside of the guard-rail. A fraction of a second later, Palpatine, who is standing at the other side of the pod, fires a one-handed bolt of lightning, which knocks away Yoda's lightsaber. The said Jedi is visibly knocked off balance, but he still 'grabs' this bolt, and begins his little 'absorbtion' sequence. Sidious launches yet another barrage of lighting at Yoda with his other hand. Here, Yoda's upper body is jolted backwards, and he is visibly struggling to both contain the lightning and keep his balance.

This is the key part: Sidious walks around the chairs, crossing over to Yoda's side of the pod. Now, he has two rows of seats behind him, as well as a good 80% of the pod's diameter. Then, Yoda gets his 'Prepare for Pwn3ge!!' look, and shoves forward the explosive energies. Sidious is like 'WTF?!', and starts cringing and moaning, his eyes wide with pain and fear. Finally, the collection of volatile, extremely powerful Force energies explodes, and the two are sent flying.

Yoda is sent off-screen, but Sidious, ah. The Emperor is flung backwards, into the chairs, flips hugely, and skids off the edge of the pod. So what happened?

Sidious slammed into the chairs, which managed to absorb the majority of his momentum. But still, he flips over them, crashes into the far side of the pod, and slips off, just barely getting a grasp on the guard-rail. Even after losing almost all of his momentum, and having the rest of it redirected upwards, so he was rising instead of flying back, he covered a distance equivalent almost to the entire pod's diameter.

Yoda's fall was completely unbroken, until he was falling straight down instead of backwards. Had Sidious not had the chairs to stop him, he would have been sent clean off the pod, as far or farther than Yoda. Interesting, considering he ways a good 4x as much as Yoda.

This entire sequence is answered very plainly.

If you know anything at all about physics, it's F = ma (force = mass * acceleration).

Since the force of the explosion is constant on all sides (we can only assume it was omnidirectional), who has the smaller mass, Sidious or Yoda? Unless Yoda has the density of a bag of bricks, this shouldn't be a tough answer.

Ianus
lmao

The best answers are sometimes the most obvious ones...

Darth Faunus
Note my last paragraph in that statement.

Ianus
I read it the first time and missed it. But then I read too fast for my own good.

Darth Faunus
More than we can say for others here. . .

Ianus
Well, Illustrious just put the final nail in the "Yoda flew farther than Sidious, hence Sidious has more Force power" argument. Non sequitor, anyone?

Yoda won the lightning battle. He did exceptionally well on the saber battle despite his precarious position, small size, etc. And while he may not have chucked pods like Sidious he sure as hell caught one coming at him full blast very easily.

I really don't see the argument: Sidious > or = Yoda at all.

Illustrious
Yeah, the whole "he ways" threw me off. But I decided to break it down into something that can be completely understood.

I don't seem to understand this "Sidious wasn't thrown off the pod, ergo he's better" logic. Can someone explain how being this? How is throwing someone who was already on the edge of the pod demonstrating mastery over them?

How is being able to escape to higher ground when you use the senate room every day demonstrate mastery? How is being able to let gravity do its thing demonstrating superior force power versus someone who worked against it and still fought to a stalemate?

I really need some explanations there, that just seems illogical.

Darth Faunus
Agreed.

Ianus
Indeed.

Darth Faunus
Concede.

Ianus
Yoda in lead.

Darth Faunus
He'll never bleed.

Ianus
Sidious gets kneed.

*Yoda-tromp*

Illustrious
The Republic gets freed.

Ianus
And the grip of the Sith will recede!

Darth Faunus
Pwn3d!

Illustrious
And Sidious groaned.

Darth Faunus
And moaned.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Illustrious
This entire sequence is answered very plainly.

If you know anything at all about physics, it's F = ma (force = mass * acceleration).

Since the force of the explosion is constant on all sides (we can only assume it was omnidirectional), who has the smaller mass, Sidious or Yoda? Unless Yoda has the density of a bag of bricks, this shouldn't be a tough answer.

And just how much more mass does Sidious have over Yoda? Sidious seems to be about 2.5 times larger than Yoda. Thing is that Yoda flew more than three times father than Sidious.


Also, about the whole saber battle thing over strength, haven't you, Janus, been telling me that speed is more important then strength? If so, Yoda isn't really at much of a physical disadvantage.

Darth Faunus
He's over twice his height, but likely four times his weight, unless you want to tell me he weighs under 80 lbs.

Ianus
Yeah, Luke could easily carry Yoda on his back.

And FYI, Glentract, speed is more important than strength in combat, but having properly applied strength can give you an advantage.

kamikz
No Yoda lost alot of weight on Dagobah without very much to eat on that planet, I say he weights more than Sidious in ROTS.


laughing
JK

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
He's over twice his height, but likely four times his weight, unless you want to tell me he weighs under 80 lbs.

Yes, Sidious does weigh more, but he also has more surface area with which to "catch" the blast. Now, this added surface area wouldn't necessarily equal it out on how far they should go, but it would make is closer, maybe a 2 to 1 ratio in Yoda's favor. The problem for Yoda is that he flew more than twice as far as Sidious, negating the impact of this argument for Yoda and increasing it for Sidious.

Also, the same thing works for Yoda in saber combat. He has a far lesser amount of area to defend then other people, such as Dooku or Sidious. Yoda has an advantage in saber combat because of lack of area to hit him, but it also comes at a price in natural ability to stop from "flying" away after an explsion.

Darth_Glentract
I feel this thread had a good debate going.

bump

Darth_Glentract
I'm just curious if this thread acomplished anything. Please say how you currently feel on Sidious vs. Yoda in force powers and saber skills and how you felt before this thread was made about force powers and saber skills.

Ianus
The only thing that's changed for me is noticing that Sidious had to ascend the pods before he threw them. Other than that, nothing.

Escape81
Originally posted by Ianus
The only thing that's changed for me is noticing that Sidious had to ascend the pods before he threw them. Other than that, nothing.

Still. The anomalies in the battle, ie, Yoda overpowering Sidious's Force lightning, and Sidious tossing pods far easier than Yoda, need to be very analyzed. While you may hold the Lightning-War as you call it, in higher esteem than the pod-tossing, it does not negate the facts. Yoda scored a victory by repelling Sidious's lightning, and Sidious did the same for his outstanding usage of the pods.

This leads me to believe that Yoda and Sidious both have advantages in one another in the Force. Some labor under the delusion that one would flat out own the other in either category; you have your Yoda fanboys on one hand, and the Sidious fanboys on the other, and the few who are rational, in the very middle.

The ROTS script is moot. Before a few of you jump off the deep end, I only refer to the part where Yoda supposedly disarms Sidious, and then leaps away for no reason, despite his intent to kill Sidious, and the part where he has the limited time to do it. Simply, had the battle turned out like this, it wouldn't have made sense.

Sidious and Yoda, in my view, are equals in the Force. Yoda and Sidious are both capable of using the Force for defense and offensive purposes, Yoda being the most vicious little Jedi we've seen, other than Mace. Yoda's core powers seemed to be a trifle more attuned than Sidious's own, but considering he's had eight centuries longer to use them, it would not surprise me. But I do believe Sidious and Dooku are naturally stronger Force-users than Yoda, considering how he was unable to overpower both of them, despite his overwhelming experience and mastery of the Force. Don't bite my head off, just an opinion.

Also, I read a passage from a book that catalogued all of the PT movies into a single novelization. I don't know the official name, but it is similar to the book that carries the three OT novels in one. There is a detailed passage regarding the Sidious v. Yoda duel, unlike the philosophical varient of Stover's own.

In this battle, Sidious does indeed blast Yoda, and overpowers his fledgling defenses. Yoda is nailed and hits the wall. The blow stuns him, but Yoda recovers. He does pretend to be unconscious as Sidious draws nearer. Yoda is then described as rising and blasting Sidious across the room with a Force push. But while he does so, Yoda laments that he never faced an opponent with such strength in the Force and of the Dark Side. He also says he is unsure of his own victory. It then goes to say that Sidious seemed to be unconfidant himself, as he attempted to flee. Yoda swallows his insecurities, and they duel. The duel is described as a bitter stalemate, but Sidious seeks refuge in the Senate arena to try and take the battle to his favor. It shows that Sidious and Yoda both exchange the offensive and defensive, until finally Yoda bats away Sidious's saber. But Sidious blasts Yoda with Force lightning, which causes Yoda to fall from the podium. Sidious then takes a pod. The pod scene is narrowed down to a mere paragraph. But it shows how Sidious uses the Force to rip out several pods at Yoda. Yoda decides to fight fire with fire, and manages to snatch a pod away and chuck it back, with Sidious dodging it. It then entails Yoda leaping to deliver the death blow, but is disarmed by Sidious's Force lightning. It then shows Yoda 'catching' the lightning, and holding it at bay. It then explodes and knocks them both back. The ending is how you see it in the movie.

This isn't canon, but it would seem to utilize the script's intent, for the most part, and describes the fight very well.

Ianus
The one problem I have with that conclusion is that you are saying Sidious' use of the pods was comparable to Yoda winning the lightning war. Problem I see with this is that the former is a use of terrain and tactics to overwhelm an opponent while the latter is a demonstration of the two on equal grounds, with Sidious first having the advantage and then losing his ass entirely.

Escape81
Well, the way I see it is this. Sidious can't be marked down for simply fighting smarter than Yoda. Yoda is a powerful Jedi and a tremendously able tactition; but Sidious - a politician, no less - fights smarter than he does. As for the terrain, Yoda has visited the Senate before. We have seen it in Expanded Universe novels, as well as AOTC. The arena is nothing spectacular. It's merely a spherical building, with numerous pods. Nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing to really take advantage of. If Yoda is the more powerful Force user, Sidious has no advantage in the pod chucking contest, and yet he displays greater feats with the pods than Yoda does. He sends three of them farther, in direct defiance with gravity, and he does so with ease. He uses more energy than Yoda does. So, the way I see it is that in the Force Mastery contest, Sidious won the pod part. And, his victory is not warranted to terrains. During the pod debacle, he fought smarter and better.

The lightning war is not being discredited. The only disadvantage Yoda has is being on the edge. But Yoda's deflection of the pod removes its kinetic energy. Yoda is not moving when the lightning is being tossed. Sidious, the one generating the lightning, is the only one capable of moving. Thus, Yoda wasn't in danger of being pushed off the side. He caught a bolt of lightning when he was disarmed, but he straightened and then caught the other. The only advantage Sidious has is mere mobility, which neither helps him or Yoda at all.

It is true. Sidious lost the lightning war. But that is Yoda's unique ability, you see. When his hands are up, he can generate a force that blocks the lightning, and then he can toss it back. In truth, the natural advantage is with Yoda.

Ianus
No, I totally disagree with the conclusions being reached here. The issue was force potential/mastery and how each stack up. Sidious having/keeping tactical favor means nothing to that argument, and simply dismissing Yoda's victory over Sidious in the Force war as his "natural ability" begs for proof.

Escape81
It is very simple. In my eyes, the defense Yoda has against the nature of Sith Lightning is either natural, or he discovered it while delving into his Dark Side days. In his time, he could've discovered the secret. But even then, does this make him essentially stronger? Not really. He had a long time to learn the secrets of the Force. Longer than Mace, Dooku, or Sidious. So, like Sidious with his fighting tactics, there are some things that Yoda knows about the Force that others do not. Like this deflection of Force lightning.

Yoda is only damaged when he lacks the time to erect a field of energy strong enough to repulse the Sith lightning, as was shown when he was initially blasted by Sidious. He attempted, at the last moment, to erect a shield, but was overpowered.

Sidious did the same when he disarmed Yoda, who was unable to counter the lightning before the saber was removed from his grasp. But, he used his other hand to catch the lightning, and then he used his saber hand to do the same with the other bolt.

When Yoda is prepared, no Sith lightning we have seen can breach his defenses. Now, you once said Count Dooku is the stronger Force user than Sidious, and that his lightning was stronger as well. But when Yoda was prepared, he turned away Dooku's lightning with perpetual ease. When Sidious attacked Yoda when he was prepared for his lightning, Yoda managed to repulse it as well.

Consider. The lightning thrown at Sidious did not damage the Dark Lord, as he was able to take the blast. Yoda used Sidious's own energy to use in the assault against him. Had Sidious not fired off his assault, Yoda would not have had anything to deflect. It was Sidious's energy that caused the end of the battle, not Yoda's. But Yoda did manage to turn it away, because of his unique ability to handle the lightning.

But does that defense naturally make him stronger? Water, in its liquid state, can smother flames. But in its solid state, fire can melt it. Does that necessarily make one stronger than the other?

Darth_Glentract
Perhaps Yoda and Sidious had reached their potential. Notice that all people signicantly stronger then them used artificial means to enhance their strength. That would also make Anakin have the highest potential. I mean, even Luke had the Kaiburr crystal and DE Sidious has Naga's Amulet. This would be a relatively good explanation for Sidious and Dooku being on Yoda's level.

Escape81
I don't know. Yoda's very powerful, but he's had eight centuries to uncover the secrets of the Force. Sidious and Dooku haven't had a sliver of that time, and they are able to confront Yoda and cause a stalemate, Sidious especially. Yoda's power, in my opinion, comes from his experience, moreso than his raw power. I'm not saying he is a slouch in that department, either, but most of his advantages come from what he has learned, not what he was born with.

Darth Faunus
In Empire Strikes Back, Yoda tells Luke that the Dark Side isn't necessarily more powerful, but it is a quicker path to power. And with someone as powerful as Sidious, I'm not surprised he was able to stand up to Yoda. He'd had almost 70 years of Sith experience, under Plagueis no less.

DrDoom101
Cant Darth Sidious just Force Crush Durge, assuming he is powerful enough to know how?

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
In Empire Strikes Back, Yoda tells Luke that the Dark Side isn't necessarily more powerful, but it is a quicker path to power. And with someone as powerful as Sidious, I'm not surprised he was able to stand up to Yoda. He'd had almost 70 years of Sith experience, under Plagueis no less.

An excellent point. But is it that much quicker? Where, in 60+ years of training in the Dark Side, a Force user can match the powers of another Force user, with 800+ years under his belt? To me, Yoda's true power comes from his experience and age . . . not saying that he does not possess immense innate power. But Sidious and Dooku are, in my opinion, of equal or potentially greater Force potential than Yoda.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Escape81
Still. The anomalies in the battle, ie, Yoda overpowering Sidious's Force lightning, and Sidious tossing pods far easier than Yoda, need to be very analyzed. While you may hold the Lightning-War as you call it, in higher esteem than the pod-tossing, it does not negate the facts. Yoda scored a victory by repelling Sidious's lightning, and Sidious did the same for his outstanding usage of the pods.


After having watched the scene half a billion times the entire scene is a big anomaly for me. Because:

a)
At the very beginning of the pod throwing sequence you can see that Yoda is jumping away from the central pod and flies to a lower level. Sidious himself is on the same hight as the central pod or maybe a little bit higher. Now Yoda jumps down and also Sidious jumps down from his position but suddenly, when Yoda's lightsaber is falling down (and later Yoda himself) they are somehow again above the central pod. I don't get it.

b)
All the pods thrown around are "active". You can see that the lights at their side are glowing and this actually make the entire "pod throwing" much less impressive. For me at least. Actually both Yoda and Sidious have nothing else to do than use the force an manipulate the controls of the pod to make them fly around as they like (if you have a look at the pods Sidious is lifting up - they remain in their "normal" flying position).

c)
Does that only look like it to me or is the Senate Champer in ROTS much smaller than it appeared to be in TPM ?

d)
Why the hell didn't Yoda pick up his lightsaber and went to fight Sidious again ? His lightsaber must be somewhere near the point that he fell to.



The point is that you can see that Yoda bested Sidious in their direct force confrontation. And after having watched the scene again you can see that Sidious is leaning backwards. Just have a look at his head from the sideposition. You can see that it's "behind" his body meaning that he's leaning backwards.



Yoda didn't leap away for no reason. I don't know what script you were reading but Yoda had to put down his lightsaber to deflect Sidious lightning and then jumped away to ready his lightsaber again since he can't kill Sidious with his force powers. Actually Sidious had to destract Yoda somehow to get away from him because if Sidious had just jumped away Yoda would directly have followed him and as we see Sidious is on the "high ground" already when Yoda is jumping away from the central pod in the beginning of the pod throwing sequence.



The point is that you're totally forgetting the Dark Side effect. First the Dark Side is "quicker" and then the Dark Side powers do simply look more impressive. Still Yoda did best both Dooku and Sidious in a "direct" battle of force powers - he just didn't kill them.

To the fight you descriped:
I think Stover in the ROTS novel is pretty much accurate when he descripes why Yoda can't defeat Sidious. Because the Sith changed their philosophy or the way they use the force. You can't overwhelm them with sheer "Light Side" powers - you have to utilize the Dark Side to beat them. And now think about it:
Mace took Sidious with a fighting style that embraces the Dark Side to a certain point. Luke did "beat" Vader in ROTJ using his anger and Sidious himself was finally killed by Vader who again was a Dark Side user.
Maybe that's the explanation why Ben and Yoda didn't train Luke and Leia from childhood on - because Yoda knew (from his fight with Sidious) that a "normal" Jedi (meaning a servant of the Light Side) can't defeat the Emperor.

And just to point it out again: Yoda must have some very high force potential since Obi-Wan is wondering that Anakin's midi-chlorian count is even beyond Yoda's. But Yoda is operating under a very strict code when it comes to using force powers and therefore we'll never know what Yoda could have done with his potential. But it's possible that Yoda would be able to beat Luke when it comes to potential which means that he could have been a devastating power on his own if he wasn't operating under the Jedi Code (imagine somebody with more potential than NJO Luke and 800 years more training - ouch !).

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Escape81
An excellent point. But is it that much quicker? Where, in 60+ years of training in the Dark Side, a Force user can match the powers of another Force user, with 800+ years under his belt? To me, Yoda's true power comes from his experience and age . . . not saying that he does not possess immense innate power. But Sidious and Dooku are, in my opinion, of equal or potentially greater Force potential than Yoda.

I doubt it is that. Look at Mace, for example. He is around Yoda/Dooku/Sidious' level of power with 53 years of Jedi Training.

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I doubt it is that. Look at Mace, for example. He is around Yoda/Dooku/Sidious' level of power with 53 years of Jedi Training.

With a saber, we have seen. I doubt his Force powers are quite as skilled or as developed as Count Dooku's, let alone Sidious's or Yoda's. He is described as a prodigy. As gifted, even for a Jedi. I am quite certain that Mace himself had an outstanding level of potential.

Darth_Glentract
He was able to fend off Sidious' full fury of Force Lightning and according to someone( I don't remember who) he blocked some of it with his hand(I'm out of town, so I can't check till saturday).

It does seem like they may have all reached their potential in pure power. After that they may have learned how to better focus that power and use it in different ways, but notice how people who don't use alternative means to augment their power, they max out around Yoda/Sidious' level of power. Look at it this way, Yoda, Malak, Mace, Sidious, Dooku, Bane, Hoth, Kavar, and Vrook are all suspiciously near each other in power. The only people who were stronger than them(Ancient Sith/NJO Luke, DE Sidious) used artificial means to enhance their power. This seems like a good reason for Sidious and Dooku being on the same level as Yoda.

It also seems unlikely that Yoda had little potential, because he was actually believed to be the Chosen One for a short time.

Escape81
Obi-Wan deflected a blast of Sith lightning from Count Dooku. Against a lightsaber, Sith lightning is useless unless it strikes the person wielding the saber itself. Mace did indeed deflect Sidious's lightning. But he used both hands, and had the advantage of a lightsaber, which also nearly caused the weapon to be forced back upon him. Indeed it would have, had Sidious not stopped the onslaught.

Darth_Glentract
Sidious would have died had he not stopped that onslaught. His face was melting. Like Sidious said, it was killing him.

IKC
Hm. For a man that was dying, Sidious sure as hell recovered quickly once Anakin sliced off Windu's hand.

Indeed, he shows no signs of being tired or weakened at all after the fight. I submit that it was not killing him.

Escape81
I know that. The point is that while Mace did manage to deflect the Sith lightning, he did so with extreme difficulty, as well as with a weapon that negates such bouts of energy, when used properly. At that moment, he really didn't do anything spectacular. Obi-Wan could've done it. So could Anakin, I'm sure.

Escape81
Originally posted by IKC
Hm. For a man that was dying, Sidious sure as hell recovered quickly once Anakin sliced off Windu's hand.

Indeed, he shows no signs of being tired or weakened at all after the fight. I submit that it was not killing him.

Quick-Recovery Medkit. stick out tongue

IKC
Originally posted by Escape81
Quick-Recovery Medkit. stick out tongue

Or spectacular acting. A farce of weakness. Somewhat like the whole fight.

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