SASQUATCH vs. THING

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scotsmn
Sasquatch vs. Thing


This has got to be a good battle. Both of them are the result of radiation (althought I read somewhere that Sasquatch may not have been) and both are similar in abilities. They are both the "muscle" in their respective teams.

Takes place in a snowy mountain setting with scattered trees and boulders. Fight is to the KO/Death/Submission.

DarkCrawler
Hmm. Taken the current power levels, I think that Thing has the upper hand here.

snoopdogg
I still go with Sasquatch. Thing may be slightly stronger currently but Sasquatch is on Reeds level in intelliegence.

scotsmn
Snoop, what issue does that happen in? What is the result of the fight?

Ultimate Rage
Sasquatch takes it with ease.....

King_Mungi
When they fought before Sasquatch had a major advantage

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=371981&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

All though current Sas is weaker than he was originally he is not an idiot when it comes to combat.

Originally posted by scotsmn
Snoop, what issue does that happen in? What is the result of the fight?

It's from Hulk annual #8

snoopdogg
Originally posted by scotsmn
Snoop, what issue does that happen in? What is the result of the fight? Nobody won the fight Hulk got bored and leaped away.

It was a close battle.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I still go with Sasquatch. Thing may be slightly stronger currently but Sasquatch is on Reeds level in intelliegence.



Although the good Dr. Langkowski is very smart... He's nowhere near in Reeds world. Reed is the smartest hero or villian in comics Marvel or DC...

Sassy gets thumped. Ben is now much stronger than him and is a much better fighter to boot.


THING 10/10

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Tony Stark
Although the good Dr. Langkowski is very smart... He's nowhere near in Reeds world. Reed is the smartest hero or villian in comics Marvel or DC...

Sassy gets thumped. Ben is now much stronger than him and is a much better fighter to boot.


THING 10/10

I agree with the Reed part, he is just above or at Banner intelligence

Not really, seeing as Sas is a accomplish H2H fighter and played even in the NFL. When they fought Thing says "Ssshhh!! Yer bigger, stronger, talk better than me and played pro ball. There must be something I can beat you at". Sasquatch responds "I doubt that" and then sends Thing flying. If Sasquatch gets enraged he gets stronger much like the Hulk due to Tanaraq is taking control. Calmed Sas went toe to toe with current Juggernaut

Tony Stark
Originally posted by King_Mungi
I agree with the Reed part, he is just above or at Banner intelligence

Not really, seeing as Sas is a accomplish H2H fighter and played even in the NFL. When they fought Thing says "Ssshhh!! Yer bigger, stronger, talk better than me and played pro ball. There must be something I can beat you at". Sasquatch responds "I doubt that" and then sends Thing flying. If Sasquatch gets enraged he gets stronger much like the Hulk due to Tanaraq is taking control. Calmed Sas went toe to toe with current Juggernaut


That fight was 20+yrs ago... Sassy had the upper hand in the begining of the fight, but Ben was starting to take it over when they had to stop and work together... Sassy said so himself.

Again happened 20+yrs ago. Ben is much stronger now than he was back then.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by Ultimate Rage
Sasquatch takes it with ease.....



laughing


Hater...

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Tony Stark
That fight was 20+yrs ago... Sassy had the upper hand in the begining of the fight, but Ben was starting to take it over when they had to stop and work together... Sassy said so himself.

Again happened 20+yrs ago. Ben is much stronger now than he was back then.

Ben wasn't taking over at all in that fight. He didn't even want to continue the fight. Check the scans yourself.

Sasquatch has a weaker base, but with his intelligence and skill still makes him an incredibly tough fighter. If he gets fueled with rage Tanaraq takes control and he goes balistic. He even went toe to toe with the Super Skrull by himself. When he battled the Hulk, the Hulk was getting stronger than Sas he knew he had to end the match quick, showing he is a lot more skilled than your giving him credit.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Ben wasn't taking over at all in that fight. He didn't even want to continue the fight. Check the scans yourself.

Sasquatch has a weaker base, but with his intelligence and skill still makes him an incredibly tough fighter. If he gets fueled with rage Tanaraq takes control and he goes balistic. He even went toe to toe with the Super Skrull by himself. When he battled the Hulk, the Hulk was getting stronger than Sas he knew he had to end the match quick, showing he is a lot more skilled than your giving him credit.


Thats the HULK Sassy's fighting in that scan silly... confused


I have the comics it's Two-in-one 83,84 that The THING fight Sasquatch...

And yes Ben does start to take over and yes Sassy does state it himself...

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Tony Stark
Thats the HULK Sassy's fighting in that scan silly... confused


I have the comics it's Two-in-one 83,84 that The THING fight Sasquatch...

And yes Ben does start to take over and yes Sassy does state it himself...

How is he silly?

That's a blantant lie, I even posted the fight in the link above. He never says once he is losing to Thing. He was complaining no matter what he did Thing wouldn't stay down and then gets hit and he asks thing well this can go on forever and let's forget our macho pride and call this one a draw. Even in his own words "Grimm was out matched from the very beginning-but he put up a incredible fight"

EDIT: If you reply tonight, I won't be able to till at least 11am or 10pm tommorow. I'm going to bed now and then I work in the morning.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by King_Mungi
How is he silly?

That's a blantant lie, I even posted the fight in the link above. He never says once he is losing to Thing. He was complaining no matter what he did Thing wouldn't stay down and then gets hit and he asks thing well this can go on forever and let's forget our macho pride and call this one a draw. Even in his own words "Grimm was out matched from the very beginning-but he put up a incredible fight"

EDIT: If you reply tonight, I won't be able to till at least 11am or 10pm tommorow. I'm going to bed now and then I work in the morning.


My apologies i did see that link. I thought you where talking about the other one with The HULK.

Sassy had just given everything he could to take Ben out and he couldn't get it done...Which he couldn't believe.


And Ben was still fresh as a daisy and ready to go. Ben sent him flying through some timbers...

Then earthquake hit.

And they joined forces...

Two-in-one annual #7 against The Champion of the Universe Sasquatch got taken down pretty quickly... While we all know what Ben did.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Tony Stark
My apologies i did see that link. I thought you where talking about the other one with The HULK.

Sassy had just given everything he could to take Ben out and he couldn't get it done...Which he couldn't believe.

And Ben was still fresh as a daisy and ready to go. Ben sent him flying through some timbers...

Then earthquake hit.

And they joined forces...

Two-in-one annual #7 against The Champion of the Universe Sasquatch got taken down pretty quickly... While we all know what Ben did.

That fight didn't end. Still had a good showing for Sasquatch though

Not really, he still wanted to end this fight since he only wanted to ask Thing questions. He by no means was depleted or going at him full force through the entire fight. After he sends Thing flying he just leaves him on the ground not doing anything else giving him time to recover and counter. "Grimm I never intended to fight. I only wanted to question you and learn your purpose here. You forced me into this-but I won't back down till you fall...*hits him* Fall blast you Fall!...Fall! *hits him and Thing goes down*... "I did it, I beat him at last. This victory is hollow...so completly useless"...Thing gets up shaking.

He sent him flying through timbers, yet Sasquatch was still fine. Besides Sasquatch's hit on the Thing sent him further. Thing even admited Sas was stronger. Then they joined forces and Ravanger says that out of the two Sasquatch was the stongest ("you appear far stronger than the other orange skinned one!"wink and had a way better showing against him then THing did.

Bah! Sasquatch has been been jobbing forever. If written normally he would have done better. Not win, but would have done much better.

.......and now bed.

Blood_Rayne
As much as I love The Thing Sasquatch would win this.

mrpress
People tend to be forgetting they (almost) met again in Infinity Crusade (although it's pretty easy to forget Infinity Crusade smile .

Sasquatch surprised the Thing from behind, to which the Thing grabbed him by the throat and was about to deck him. At that point Gamora stepped in an KO'd the thing with a pressure point touch (which probably shouldn't have worked on the Thing, but whatever).

Regardless, afterwards Sasquatch thanked Gamora for saving him as he said that he was nowhere near as tough as Grimm.

Sasquatch may be stronger (although I think that's a thing of the past), but the Thing can take a punch longer. I think he takes down Sasquatch at least 7/10.

snoopdogg
Sasquatch has never actually been beaten by punches that I am aware of. So I dont know if Thing can take more punishment than Walter.

Plus Walter has a healing factor also. I say Sasquatch 7/10.

Metalmanx
Sasquatch 9/10. He's just better/stronger/faster/smarter than Thing.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by mrpress
People tend to be forgetting they (almost) met again in Infinity Crusade (although it's pretty easy to forget Infinity Crusade smile .

Sasquatch surprised the Thing from behind, to which the Thing grabbed him by the throat and was about to deck him. At that point Gamora stepped in an KO'd the thing with a pressure point touch (which probably shouldn't have worked on the Thing, but whatever).

Regardless, afterwards Sasquatch thanked Gamora for saving him as he said that he was nowhere near as tough as Grimm.

Sasquatch may be stronger (although I think that's a thing of the past), but the Thing can take a punch longer. I think he takes down Sasquatch at least 7/10.


Happy Dance


I've been racking my brain trying to remember where is saw that thanks...

Thats absolutely true...

At one point Sassy was stronger than The THING, but he is no longer...

And i like Sassy... but...

THING 9/10

snoopdogg
Thing is class 85 while Sasquatch is class 70. Not much difference there.

Walter will use his intelligence and healing factor to take out poor Benji.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Thing is class 85 while Sasquatch is class 70. Not much difference there.

Walter will use his intelligence and healing factor to take out poor Benji.


Those are way old stats...


Why would Sasquatch say this " thanked Gamora for saving him as he said that he was nowhere near as tough as Grimm."

If he felt that he could beat him...?

The answer is...He wouldn't.

And he did say it.

snoopdogg
Originally posted by Tony Stark
Those are way old stats...


Why would Sasquatch say this " thanked Gamora for saving him as he said that he was nowhere near as tough as Grimm."

If he felt that he could beat him...?

The answer is...He wouldn't.

And he did say it. I can show you a scan with Thing saying he is no match for Sasquatch too.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I can show you a scan with Thing saying he is no match for Sasquatch too.



No you can't because he never said that...

What he said was "Your bigger than me... stronger than me... talk better than me... even played pro ball... there must be something that i can beat you in..."

It was Sassy who said that Ben was outmatched... But he's not used to many people taking his best and still come back and dish it out even harder...

And the Infinity Crusade was after this fight in two-in-one 83,84 so Sassy did learn the real truth...That he can't get it done against The THING. Thats why he thanked Gamora for saving his ass...

Tony Stark
Originally posted by Tony Stark
No you can't because he never said that...

What he said was "Your bigger than me... stronger than me... talk better than me... even played pro ball... there must be something that i can beat you in..."

It was Sassy who said that Ben was outmatched... But he's not used to many people taking his best and still come back and dish it out even harder...

And the Infinity Crusade was after this fight in two-in-one 83,84 so Sassy did learn the real truth...That he can't get it done against The THING. Thats why he thanked Gamora for saving his ass...

snoopdogg
Originally posted by Tony Stark
No you can't because he never said that...

What he said was "Your bigger than me... stronger than me... talk better than me... even played pro ball... there must be something that i can beat you in..."

It was Sassy who said that Ben was outmatched... But he's not used to many people taking his best and still come back and dish it out even harder...

And the Infinity Crusade was after this fight in two-in-one 83,84 so Sassy did learn the real truth...That he can't get it done against The THING. Thats why he thanked Gamora for saving his ass... When you say somebody is bigger than you, stronger than you, and smarter than you that usually means that you are no match for them.

You just dont want to see it cause your a Thing fanboy.

snoopdogg
................

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Tony Stark
No you can't because he never said that...

What he said was "Your bigger than me... stronger than me... talk better than me... even played pro ball... there must be something that i can beat you in..."

It was Sassy who said that Ben was outmatched... But he's not used to many people taking his best and still come back and dish it out even harder...

And the Infinity Crusade was after this fight in two-in-one 83,84 so Sassy did learn the real truth...That he can't get it done against The THING. Thats why he thanked Gamora for saving his ass...

What are you talking about?

Thing stated Your bigger than me... stronger than me... talk better than me... even played pro ball... there must be something that i can beat you in..." How does that show he never said he was putclassed?

WHAT? He did not dish it out harder, notice Thing was on the ground a lot more than Sasquatch and even most of it he was still holding back since he didn't want to fight him.

Like I said earlier he jobs alot, but written to what he can actually do. Thing is nothing. In the ALpha FLight respect thread, Sas has more impressive feats than Thing.

snoopdogg
I just went back and reread Marvel Two-in-one #83 and Sasquatch was not even at full strength.

King_Mungi
I forgot about that actually, btw can you get better scans then the one I have in the AF thread? I can't get a good scans of them.

snoopdogg
Originally posted by King_Mungi
I forgot about that actually, btw can you get better scans then the one I have in the AF thread? I can't get a good scans of them. Scans of what exactly?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Scans of what exactly?

The lead up to the fight and the actual fight. Mine are pretty low quality.

snoopdogg
I'll see what I can do. It will take some time.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I'll see what I can do. It will take some time.

When ever you can it would be appreicated. No rush or anything.

snoopdogg
......

snoopdogg
Its hard to get a full page scanned for high quality on this site.

snoopdogg
......

King_Mungi
Wow I didn't think you would do it this fast, would it be best if you just email them to me? that way they would be better quality? so far they are better than mine

If you do want to go that route my email is- [email protected]

Tony Stark
Originally posted by snoopdogg
When you say somebody is bigger than you, stronger than you, and smarter than you that usually means that you are no match for them.

You just dont want to see it cause your a Thing fanboy.



roll eyes (sarcastic)


Sometimes those things absolutely do make a difference...

Like in basketball, weight lifting, and SAT scores...

Did you hear him say your a better fighter than me...? Did you hear him say you've got more experience than me...?

That would be a NO... You didn't.

If you look at my posts i've acknowledged that (at that time) Sassy was stronger...And of course he's bigger and smarter.

And Sassy is a little weaker when he changes... It doesn't last all damn day. It lasts minutes maybe...

And your forgeting to show the part where Ben says (not verbatium) I've been walking these mountains all day and i'm kind of tired.

And at what point is someone holding back when they say "I'm going to end this now...FALL...FALL...FALL BLAST YOU...FALL...why won't this man go down...?"

And i geuss your just going to pretend that what Sassy said to Gamora is little of nothing... And he didn't mean it when he said it... Right?

Yeah...ok.

Sassy did get in some nice shots in and more of them granted. But Ben also got some nice shots in and got the last one in prior to the earthquake. Sassy was reeling whether you like to admit it or not and Sassy was getting frustrated that Ben wasn't going down when he was giving him all he had.

While Ben was still happy go lucky and coming hard per the last shot when he sent Sassy through all those trees. (AHHH...My jaw is going to hurt for a month...)

Ben is used to taking shots for long periods of time from characters bigger and stronger than him... It doesn't matter to him because a lot of the time his expert fighting skills along with his durability, fight stamina and his capabilities of being able to take a punch... Carry him through all of that to win against foes that he maybe by the #'s shouldn't be able to beat.

I seriously think that Sassy's great intellect allowed him to see that. And after that tussle with Ben knows that he couldn't beat him even though he was bigger, stronger, and smarter...

He wasn't tougher, nor more durable, nor a better fighter, nor did he want to win as much as Ben did. Thats why he said that to Gamora... He knew that in the end he was the one who was overmatched against Ben...

And by the way the thread is about current characters not 1980's characters... So that means that now Ben is much stronger than Sassy.

And I also think that means that Sassy curls up into a big furry ball and cries uncle as soon as the bell rings... Because he knows especially now he's F#cked against The THING.

The THING 10/10



cool

King_Mungi
I will say just a few things, since the above post was adress to snoopdogg

If Sasquatch is fueled with rage he goes back to class 100 strength due to Tanaraq taking controling. Meaning the longer this fight goes on the longer Thing is in trouble. No way would this fight be a quick fight, and if you think so your letting your bias get to you.

Do not take the Gamora as concrete evidence since even Ravanger (a would be god) knew Sas was better and Sas had a much better showing against him then Thing did.

Thing got in two good shots, one that staggered him and the one that sent him into the trees which he quickly got up from. When Thing was down he was shaking to get back up. Sas didn't even want to fight, he even says that multiple times. If he was serious from the start it would not have gone that long.

Even current calmed Sas went toe to toe with current jugz and mashed his face pretty good and even knocked off his helmet with one blow. Current Sas is not a weakling. I have no clue where you got that from.

Lucid Lui
Sasquatch takes it 9/10. Thing gets a lucky victory. But that's it.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by King_Mungi
I will say just a few things, since the above post was adress to snoopdogg

If Sasquatch is fueled with rage he goes back to class 100 strength due to Tanaraq taking controling. Meaning the longer this fight goes on the longer Thing is in trouble. No way would this fight be a quick fight, and if you think so your letting your bias get to you.

Do not take the Gamora as concrete evidence since even Ravanger (a would be god) knew Sas was better and Sas had a much better showing against him then Thing did.

Thing got in two good shots, one that staggered him and the one that sent him into the trees which he quickly got up from. When Thing was down he was shaking to get back up. Sas didn't even want to fight, he even says that multiple times. If he was serious from the start it would not have gone that long.

Even current calmed Sas went toe to toe with current jugz and mashed his face pretty good and even knocked off his helmet with one blow. Current Sas is not a weakling. I have no clue where you got that from.



Current Juggs is very much depowered you have to admit...

As is Current Sassy... from the 1980's that is when 2n1 83,84 came out.

Ben got up slowly after Sassy hit him what 5 or 6 times in a row... And then got up and almost broke Sassy's jaw and it didn't look as if Sassy popped right back up he was sprawled out and moaning...


Ravanger key word (wouldbegod)


You can't get around it Sassy did say it... And he was of right mind so he must have ment what he said right?


Current THING is low to mid CL100 now and Current Sassy is CL70 right now... And he does get stronger with rage but it's not as if he's The HULK or anything... It doesn't increase that fast.

And definately not fast enough to stay in the fight for long and he knows it even though you wont admit it.

Metalmanx
Current Juggernaut is depowered, yes. But he's still low class 100. He just doesn't have all the same invulnerabilities anymore.

And Sassy took it Juggy pretty well, pretty than Thing EVER HAS. Sasquatch, like previously stated, is faster, stronger, more intelligent, better.

I really wish they'd make a current comic with these two facing off. It'd make Thing a bit more humble.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Tony Stark
Current Juggs is very much depowered you have to admit...

As is Current Sassy... from the 1980's that is when 2n1 83,84 came out.

Ben got up slowly after Sassy hit him what 5 or 6 times in a row... And then got up and almost broke Sassy's jaw and it didn't look as if Sassy popped right back up he was sprawled out and moaning...

Ravanger key word (wouldbegod)


You can't get around it Sassy did say it... And he was of right mind so he must have ment what he said right?

Current THING is low to mid CL100 now and Current Sassy is CL70 right now... And he does get stronger with rage but it's not as if he's The HULK or anything... It doesn't increase that fast.

And definately not fast enough to stay in the fight for long and he knows it even though you wont admit it.

Of course, but he is not a weakling himself. Still low level class 100 I believe

Yeah now if Sas was serious he would have kept pounding him into a pulp, but in different phases of the fight he asks Thing we should stop and he didn't want to fight due to he wanted to ask Thing questions. No he didn't, good lord. He said his jaw hurt nothing about breaking it. Besides his healing factor would kick in anyways. Now your being foolish.

Correct, but your not listening to me. 70+ tons is his base strength prior to being enraged. Tanaraq begins to take control and he goes right back up to what he was.

uh huh...the would be god that rocked Thing...*shrugs* His own words he said Sas was stronger. Also why are you claiming Sas has no hand to hand skills? he has been trained by Department H, which is the Canadian CIA. Your making him sound like he knows nothing about fighting. He has been an athlete his entire life even playing as linebacker for the Green Bay Packers .

haha, so writers errors are concrete now? Good lord that's a bad arguement. One statement does not outway years of feats.

Actually in many situations it does increase quickly, even with the Exiles Tanaraq took control instantly and there was a HUGE power increase. Same with when Sas battled Snowbird and the Super Skrull. I'm not even factoring in a quick rage boost, since this fight even in a weaker state will not be quick. This will be a long fight. Question have you read ALpha Flight comics other than the Thing apperances?

....now bed and then i'm working in the morning

snoopdogg
King is this pic good enough quality?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Sasquatch005.jpg

Warmonger
If I rember correcly current Jugs and Sas fought twice. Once when Alpha Flight came to the mansion. Juggernaut beat him until he actually begged him to stop while blood was pouring down his face. Then he came back and kncoked juggeranaut a good distance away. Then I think the fight broke up but otherwie Juggernaut didn't really seem phased.

The second time Juggernaut was beating him and Alpha Flight by himself. Heck it was unitil Juggs stopped fighting back that Sas got any decent hits in and even then he had to hit him over and over to make him bleed. So I don't know if Sas is in that high a strentgh class.

snoopdogg
Juggernaut is not what he used to be but he is still class 100 and has very hight durability.

Thing was knocked out by classic Juggy. Sasquatch took some good shots from the weaker Juggy.

snoopdogg
This is how the fight started. Thing thought Sasquatch was attacking him but he wasnt.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Sasquatch006.jpg

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Warmonger
If I rember correcly current Jugs and Sas fought twice. Once when Alpha Flight came to the mansion. Juggernaut beat him until he actually begged him to stop while blood was pouring down his face. Then he came back and kncoked juggeranaut a good distance away. Then I think the fight broke up but otherwie Juggernaut didn't really seem phased.

The second time Juggernaut was beating him and Alpha Flight by himself. Heck it was unitil Juggs stopped fighting back that Sas got any decent hits in and even then he had to hit him over and over to make him bleed. So I don't know if Sas is in that high a strentgh class.

NO!...did you even read that issue? Sasquatch punched Jugz and the impact was so great it created a crater and sent Jugz's helmet off. Blood was coming from Jugz mouth as well. Then they both get up and Sas says "god god...wait, man. Hold up a second." and with his guard down Jugz hits Sas. He was not beging him to stop at all like he was outclassed since it was his hit that made the ground shake and send cars into the air. He even charged at Jugz after that one hit when his guard was down and they both went toe to toe. Actually Jugz did seemed phase due to his face was swallown and blue after the fight. Sammy the Fishboy stoped the fight.

Good lord that was horribly written. First off even a pissed off Mac would not punch out Jugz even causing him to bleed. He would blast him with his energy blasts which would have been incredibly useful. Besides Jugz shouldn't even be able to touch them due to their speed and flight and Mac's computer mind. Both parties were unphased and it was Gaurdian and Vindicator holding back Sas from further punching Jugz's face in. Even in #433 it was Sas who sents Jugz through the building destroying most of his clothes and it was shown Sas getting the power hits on and Guardian says, "WALTER STOP!", Walter replies "What do you mean "stop", Guardian? Alpha Flight gave Juggernaut his chance to surrender. This is payback". Mac replies "That's my point Walter. This isn't supposed to be personal!" and then Jugz gets up and hits Walter. Then Vindicator is shown blasting Jugz what looks like machine gun fire...wait what? and then the next issue is Mac punching Jugz and Walter pounding in his face. This was the Draco arc, where we find out Nightcrawler's dad is the devil......bad arc
=========
Thanks a lot snoopdogg, they are incredible quality.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Juggernaut is not what he used to be but he is still class 100 and has very hight durability.

Thing was knocked out by classic Juggy. Sasquatch took some good shots from the weaker Juggy.


The THING just got done fighting 100 villains straight at one time right before this... And Classic Juggs was the last one...

The_Blob
good fight but Sas probably takes it. He gots the size advantage.

KillAll
Originally posted by King_Mungi
I will say just a few things, since the above post was adress to snoopdogg

If Sasquatch is fueled with rage he goes back to class 100 strength due to Tanaraq taking controling. Meaning the longer this fight goes on the longer Thing is in trouble. No way would this fight be a quick fight, and if you think so your letting your bias get to you.

Do not take the Gamora as concrete evidence since even Ravanger (a would be god) knew Sas was better and Sas had a much better showing against him then Thing did.

Thing got in two good shots, one that staggered him and the one that sent him into the trees which he quickly got up from. When Thing was down he was shaking to get back up. Sas didn't even want to fight, he even says that multiple times. If he was serious from the start it would not have gone that long.

Even current calmed Sas went toe to toe with current jugz and mashed his face pretty good and even knocked off his helmet with one blow. Current Sas is not a weakling. I have no clue where you got that from.





CURRENT JUGGERNAUT IS A WEAKLING THOUGH...


and as for the thing/sasquatch fight, sasquatch is wobbly just like thing in the end... funny how nobody has the scans of that wink. sas is struggling to keep going just like ben. despite having the upperhand he couldnt continue any longer than ben could. and as stated previously this was several years ago. thing HAS gotten stronger. thing HAS gotten more experience. also as stated earlier, thing when he HAS to do something can. he faired much better against champion than sasquatch did. because he had too... thing didnt HAVE to fight juggernaut. he just over estimated himself. but still... thats not a fair comparison. thing drastically changed in that issue where sasquatch knew exactly what he was capable of going into the fight with juggernaut.


thing wins atleast 6/10 IMO.

who?-kid
Originally posted by Tony Stark
Originally posted by snoopdogg
JThe THING just got done fighting 100 villains straight at one time right before this... And Classic Juggs was the last one...
That wasn't regular Thing confused

Tony Stark
Originally posted by who?-kid
That wasn't regular Thing confused


I know that...


Although he was enhanced during the 99 villains it still took a toll on him...

King_Mungi
Originally posted by KillAll
CURRENT JUGGERNAUT IS A WEAKLING THOUGH...


and as for the thing/sasquatch fight, sasquatch is wobbly just like thing in the end... funny how nobody has the scans of that wink. sas is struggling to keep going just like ben. despite having the upperhand he couldnt continue any longer than ben could. and as stated previously this was several years ago. thing HAS gotten stronger. thing HAS gotten more experience. also as stated earlier, thing when he HAS to do something can. he faired much better against champion than sasquatch did. because he had too... thing didnt HAVE to fight juggernaut. he just over estimated himself. but still... thats not a fair comparison. thing drastically changed in that issue where sasquatch knew exactly what he was capable of going into the fight with juggernaut.


thing wins atleast 6/10 IMO.

No he isn't he is still low class 100

What you mean after the earthquake caused by Ravanger? No he wasn't, good lord he was dominating Thing. Yet he was still holding back due to he wanted to ask him questions and he was already weakened due to his transformation. GAH! I'm just repeating myself so I'm not continuing. Once again if written correctly, Sas would have done much better against the Champion. Not win, but done better. Actually Sas did not know what Jugz was capable of, he didn't even fully know he was there. Just some breif intel that Sammy was with him and that's the reason they went to the X-Mansion. They were not preparing to fight the X-Men at all.

KillAll
Originally posted by King_Mungi
No he isn't he is still low class 100



he is a weakling compared to his former self... have to put things in perspective. wasnt much (if anything) classic juggernaut couldnt physically handle. he showed no limits that i'm aware of on panel.



Originally posted by King_Mungi
What you mean after the earthquake caused by Ravanger? No he wasn't, good lord he was dominating Thing.



he was dominating thing... when thing was much weaker than his current self. after checking back it seems that the ground was what was making sasquatch wobbly. my bad. i was remembering different. had to brush up again...

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yet he was still holding back due to he wanted to ask him questions and he was already weakened due to his transformation. GAH! I'm just repeating myself so I'm not continuing. Once again if written correctly, Sas would have done much better against the Champion.



but he didnt... and if written properly, thing should have done better against sasquatch.


Originally posted by King_Mungi
Not win, but done better. Actually Sas did not know what Jugz was capable of, he didn't even fully know he was there. Just some breif intel that Sammy was with him and that's the reason they went to the X-Mansion. They were not preparing to fight the X-Men at all.


i didnt say that sasquatch knew what juggernaut was capable of. i said that sasquatch knew what himself was capable of. however when thing fought juggernaut, he was fluctuating in power. he was 100 x himself then right before back to normal and probably unaware of what was happening. the difference there is sasquatch knew EXACTLY what he was capable of. not that it makes a difference, neither of them can match original juggernaut.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by KillAll
he is a weakling compared to his former self... have to put things in perspective. wasnt much (if anything) classic juggernaut couldnt physically handle. he showed no limits that i'm aware of on panel.

he was dominating thing... when thing was much weaker than his current self. after checking back it seems that the ground was what was making sasquatch wobbly. my bad. i was remembering different. had to brush up again...

but he didnt... and if written properly, thing should have done better against sasquatch.

i didnt say that sasquatch knew what juggernaut was capable of. i said that sasquatch knew what himself was capable of. however when thing fought juggernaut, he was fluctuating in power. he was 100 x himself then right before back to normal and probably unaware of what was happening. the difference there is sasquatch knew EXACTLY what he was capable of. not that it makes a difference, neither of them can match original juggernaut.


Of course no way am I'm implying that. What is interesting to note is that Sas faired so well against his strength and his durable (still good, but no where good as it was). For instance Jugz's strength is low class 100 and Sas's strength was said to be 70+ tons. His anger helps him to get back up to what he once was.

Other way around, Sas should have eneded the fight quick with Thing. He lifted a 250 ton DC-10 and he did it with ease. There really wasn't a limit to his strength back in the day. Plus he had insane durability, but meh! like I said earlier Sas has been jobbing for years.

Sas can still get back to what he once was, due to Tanaraq taking control. I commented on this in the above posts, so no need to go on further. No worries, wasn't sure what part you were talking about

Oh I get what you meant, and technically Sas doesn't know his power. He keeps going up and down in strength and he isn't even in his orginal body...but that's another story. I agree, classic Sas would put up a fight but would lose in the end.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by King_Mungi
No he isn't he is still low class 100

What you mean after the earthquake caused by Ravanger? No he wasn't, good lord he was dominating Thing. Yet he was still holding back due to he wanted to ask him questions and he was already weakened due to his transformation. GAH! I'm just repeating myself so I'm not continuing. Once again if written correctly, Sas would have done much better against the Champion. Not win, but done better. Actually Sas did not know what Jugz was capable of, he didn't even fully know he was there. Just some breif intel that Sammy was with him and that's the reason they went to the X-Mansion. They were not preparing to fight the X-Men at all.


Come on man your acting as if Sassy needs a full days rest after transformation...

Your also forgeting that Ben said himself right before he ran into Sassy and it IS a quote " I'm wasted! I'd like to drop in my tracks... But I can't stop... Not with giant mans life at stake!"

The last 2/3's of the fight Sassy was most definately trying to take him down with everything he had... He said so himself... And was frustrated when he couldn't do it...

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Tony Stark
Come on man your acting as if Sassy needs a full days rest after transformation...

Your also forgeting that Ben said himself right before he ran into Sassy and it IS a quote " I'm wasted! I'd like to drop in my tracks... But I can't stop... Not with giant mans life at stake!"

The last 2/3's of the fight Sassy was most definately trying to take him down with everything he had... He said so himself... And was frustrated when he couldn't do it...

Actually at times he did. Even in another instance when he transformed with a broken arm the stress of transforming made him go feral due to the strain was so great. When he first started out it was quite diffucult for him to transform.

No I havn't, but when classic Sas has shown to press 250 tons and he is just doing this "well" against a tired Thing. He was greatly weakened from that transformation.

You mean 1/3 of the fight, since the "fall" part was the tailend of the fight. Due to after the "fall" part Thing punched Sas into the trees.

The_Blob
Blob > Sasquatch > Thing

Better battle would be Blob vs Sasquatch and Thing

Tony Stark
Originally posted by The_Blob
Blob > Sasquatch > Thing

Better battle would be Blob vs Sasquatch and Thing





laughing


Get over it...

Can The Blob fight well without his head...?

Because Ben would take it right off his shoulders and throw an alley-opp to Sassy for the win...


Happy Dance

Clobberin Time!
Sasquatch could not defeat Thing in their fight. He tried like hell to put Thing down but did not have the power to do so. Plus since then Sasquatch has already admitted to being weaker than Thing.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Clobberin Time!
Sasquatch could not defeat Thing in their fight. He tried like hell to put Thing down but did not have the power to do so. Plus since then Sasquatch has already admitted to being weaker than Thing.

HA! judging from your name you obviously don't know much about Sasquatch. Thing has also admited to being weaker than Sasquatch. "Sheesh! Your bigger, stronger, talk better than me and played proball! There must be something I can beat you at!", Sasquatch replies, "I doubt it".

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/72652_vgrim3.jpg

Never beat him? Thier next match Sasquatch destroyed Thing


---------------------------------------------
Battles
---------------------------------------------
Alpha Flight #94 (Vol.1): Thing
After being controlled by Headlok, he makes Sasquatch slip into a blind furry attacking Ben, who at the time was wearing his exo-suit. Mr. Fantastic made to "restore most of the strength he used to possess". Sasquatch dominates him, even stopping Ben from even landing one hit. Headlok also mentions Sasquatch's power increase when he becomes angry "I feel Sasquatch's physical surge".

1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight94-04.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight94-05.jpg
3. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight94-06.jpg
4. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight94-12.jpg
5. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight94-13.jpg

I suggest you look at the Sasquatch respect thread, as Thing's feats don't even come close to Sasquatch's. Sasquatch can become an Elder God, do yourself a favor and look Sasquatch up.

Redatom65
Sasquach

Accel
That battle doesn't really look like the best example of how one person would beat another, since Thing was just a man in a exo-suit.

Clobberin Time!
I said Sasquatch has admitted Ben was stronger AFTER the fight, yours is DURING the fight. Here's the last two scans of the fight. Ben took Sasquatches best shots and got back up and knocked him through some trees ready for action.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/72661_vgrim5.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/72666_vgrim6.jpg

Walters best wasn't good enough.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Accel
That battle doesn't really look like the best example of how one person would beat another, since Thing was just a man in a exo-suit.

Actually it is, as when Reed revealed the exo-suit he directly stated it was nearly equal to his original Thing hide and strength

Originally posted by Clobberin Time!
I said Sasquatch has admitted Ben was stronger AFTER the fight, yours is DURING the fight. Here's the last two scans of the fight. Ben took Sasquatches best shots and got back up and knocked him through some trees ready for action.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/72661_vgrim5.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/72666_vgrim6.jpg

Walters best wasn't good enough.

Right and nice you ignore the fact Walter states he was weakened and didn't want to even fight for 90% of the battle. Also no after that fight, Walter destroys Thing in a no-contest. Sasquatch can increase his strength via rage or pain. Please do some research, as Thing feats arn't even close to Sasquatchs.

Clobberin Time!
I like how you overlook the fact that Thing states he's so tired he's about to fall over but harp all over Walter stating he is. In the end Sasquatches best shots just were not good enough. It's ok man.

Beta Ray Howard
This fight could go either way. I can't really decide.

Accel
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually it is, as when Reed revealed the exo-suit he directly stated it was nearly equal to his original Thing hide and strength

That doesn't necessarily means it actually was, though. For example, Hulk once fought the Crypto Man- who was stated by his creator to be just as strong as Thor- and destroyed him in three blows, despite never being able to do that to Thor himself.

I highly doubt Thing's own hide would fall apart that easily when many have pounded on him failed to break him.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Clobberin Time!
I like how you overlook the fact that Thing states he's so tired he's about to fall over but harp all over Walter stating he is. In the end Sasquatches best shots just were not good enough. It's ok man.

Actually no I didn't, your claiming that fight as canon when in reality Sasquatch has shown vastly higher feats than Thing, so who was more depowered? ....right, and did you forget Sasquatch punched a hole in reality? must have or you just don't know any better.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Accel
That doesn't necessarily means it actually was, though. For example, Hulk once fought the Crypto Man- who was stated by his creator to be just as strong as Thor- and destroyed him in three blows, despite never being able to do that to Thor himself.

I highly doubt Thing's own hide would fall apart that easily when many have pounded on him failed to break him.

Actually Reed and Ben stated it as such in the issues that revealed the exo-suit. So yeah it's as such.

*sigh*....Elder God, Sasquatch has even beat an alternate reality Hulk.

LORDSIDIOUS01
If you are talking strength, than Walter Langkowski. Skills wise Ben Grimm.

Clobberin Time!
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually no I didn't, your claiming that fight as canon when in reality Sasquatch has shown vastly higher feats than Thing, so who was more depowered? ....right, and did you forget Sasquatch punched a hole in reality? must have or you just don't know any better. I read the thread and saw the argument made by some posters who did not see a reality hole punch. It's in your imagination possibly. Thing has plenty of feats to be put against Sasquatch. But why compare feats when you can compare direct combat. Or the fact that Walter has already admitted Thing is stronger.

Accel
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually Reed and Ben stated it as such in the issues that revealed the exo-suit. So yeah it's as such.

*sigh*....Elder God, Sasquatch has even beat an alternate reality Hulk.
Right, but what showed the suit to be as tough as Ben's hide? This just goes back to my Crypto-Man example.

Yeah, but he wasn't in Elder God mode there, was he? And alternate realities aren't the best example either due to varying power levels. The Ultimate MU is a good example of that.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Clobberin Time!
I read the thread and saw the argument made by some posters who did not see a reality hole punch. It's in your imagination possible. Thing has plenty of feats to be put against Sasquatch. But why compare feats when you can compare direct combat. Or the fact that Walter has already admitted Thing is stronger.

and even the member that initially asked the question agreed it was canon. Like what? UHHH....Thing has admited Sasquatch was stronger, and Walter can increase his strength to Elder God status. Please do some research or just stop all together as you clearly don't know the entire facts.

Clobberin Time!
When has Sasquatch ever amped his strength during combat?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Accel
Right, but what showed the suit to be as tough as Ben's hide? This just goes back to my Crypto-Man example.

Yeah, but he wasn't in Elder God mode there, was he? And alternate realities aren't the best example either due to varying power levels. The Ultimate MU is a good example of that.

Nothing other than Sasquatch did any damage to it, so yeah. Luke Cage who was augmented by the Puppet Master who was strong enough to crush Invisible Woman's shield and toss a rocket like nothing did nothing to Ben's hide.

Near it as Headlok was tapping into his rage and it clearly stated he was getting stronger. Actually they were augmented from 616 thanks to Llan manipulating the reality.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Clobberin Time!
When has Sasquatch ever amped his strength during combat?

Just proved my point you don't know the entire facts, read please.

http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Sasquatch_I

Every time he experiences pain or rage Tanaraq begins to take over augmenting his strength

Clobberin Time!
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Just proved my point you don't know the entire facts, read please.

http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Sasquatch_I

Every time he experiences pain or rage Tanaraq begins to take over augmenting his strength I didn't ask for a fan-based website bio. I asked for proof of him doing it during combat.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Clobberin Time!
I didn't ask for a fan-based website bio. I asked for proof of him doing it during combat.

*sigh* points to respect thread, when you said you read it did you simply ignore the Tanaraq posts? and even against the exo-suit Thing he makes a comment he was getting stronger.

Clobberin Time!
Originally posted by King_Mungi
*sigh* points to respect thread, when you said you read it did you simply ignore the Tanaraq posts? and even against the exo-suit Thing he makes a comment he was getting stronger. Scans? If he got stronger everytime he was feeling pain or rage how come he could not put down Thing? Or current Juggernaut? Or Hulk?

Accel
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Nothing other than Sasquatch did any damage to it, so yeah. Luke Cage who was augmented by the Puppet Master who was strong enough to crush Invisible Woman's shield and toss a rocket like nothing did nothing to Ben's hide.

Near it as Headlok was tapping into his rage and it clearly stated he was getting stronger. Actually they were augmented from 616 thanks to Llan manipulating the reality.
Luke Cage amped to any level breaking Sue's shield sounds more jobbing on her part than any thing else, especially seeing that she's beaten Thing, She-Hulk, Titania, and Absorbing Man all at once. Was there any thing else that the suit stood up to?

He was just getting stronger, but he wasn't in Elder God mode. I was always under the impression there was a big difference between the two, because otherwise it wouldn't be any different from fighting the Hulk.

Stronger? Did they actually state they were stronger than the mainstream heroes?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Clobberin Time!
Scans? If he got stronger everytime he was feeling pain or rage how come he could not put down Thing? Or current Juggernaut? Or Hulk?

All the scans are compiled in the respect thread

Because he wasn't in a rage state now was he? and no one won in the Jug fight, and Sasquatch wasn't angry against Hulk he felt guilty for what he did. Also rules of the board PIS/CIS

Originally posted by Accel
Luke Cage amped to any level breaking Sue's shield sounds more jobbing on her part than any thing else, especially seeing that she's beaten Thing, She-Hulk, Titania, and Absorbing Man all at once. Was there any thing else that the suit stood up to?

He was just getting stronger, but he wasn't in Elder God mode. I was always under the impression there was a big difference between the two, because otherwise it wouldn't be any different from fighting the Hulk.

Stronger? Did they actually state they were stronger than the mainstream heroes?

Meh! Luke Cage took out the entire Fantastic Four, and as noted was Puppet Master's greatest achievement. I don't think any of the likes of Sasquatch, but I will have to check.

I never said he was, but base Sasquatch strength has tossed 250 tons 1000 feet. Most of the time as noted, Sasquatch holds back due to fear of losing control.

Some were, but I can't say about all of them.

Accel
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Meh! Luke Cage took out the entire Fantastic Four, and as noted was Puppet Master's greatest achievement. I don't think any of the likes of Sasquatch, but I will have to check.

I never said he was, but base Sasquatch strength has tossed 250 tons 1000 feet. Most of the time as noted, Sasquatch holds back due to fear of losing control.

Some were, but I can't say about all of them.
So this all seems to go back to my original statement that Ben's suit wasn't as tough as his Thing hide. If Sasquatch not in Elder God mode manages to rip apart the suit, I suspect it's not as tough as his own thing body.

So, does that mean the alternate Hulk may not have actually been any better than his 616 counterpart?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Accel
So this all seems to go back to my original statement that Ben's suit wasn't as tough as his Thing hide. If Sasquatch not in Elder God mode manages to rip apart the suit, I suspect it's not as tough as his own thing body.

So, does that mean the alternate Hulk may not have actually been any better than his 616 counterpart?

Actually he can become Elder God strength, but not be given the powers over death and decay as Tanaraq has or be able to use his magical backlash attack Tanaraq did to Talisman.

Naaaa...he was augmented, but we didn't actually see the final part of the fight. Just Sasquatch emerging unschaved from the building.

Accel
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually he can become Elder God strength, but not be given the powers over death and decay as Tanaraq has or be able to use his magical backlash attack Tanaraq did to Talisman.

Naaaa...he was augmented, but we didn't actually see the final part of the fight. Just Sasquatch emerging unschaved from the building.
Did they say he was augmented? Were there any heroes who were specifically mentioned to be stronger/more powerful than their 616 counterparts.

Clobberin Time!
Sasquatch has not shown the ability imo to augment his strength enough during combat for it to become a viable factor. None of his official Marvel bios states such a power.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Accel
Did they say he was augmented? Were there any heroes who were specifically mentioned to be stronger/more powerful than their 616 counterparts.

Just Sasquatch later during the Llan crisis, compared fighting the two Hulks in a special.

Originally posted by Clobberin Time!
Sasquatch has not shown the ability imo to augment his strength enough during combat for it to become a viable factor. None of his official Marvel bios states such a power.

Oh? then we shall ignore what is said in the comics now? They say Sasquatch is class 70, but if you actually read the respect thread which I doubt now, you would obviously see he is vastly higher than that

As stated in the actual comics the more rage or pain Sasquatch experiences the more Tanaraq takes control.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/A_Flight2/AlphaFlight23-17.jpg

juggernaut74
Good fight here. I gotta go with Ben though.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Good fight here. I gotta go with Ben though.

How so? Sasquatch is stronger, and smarter. Ben has the skills, but that didn't help him in both fights against Sasquatch as Walter is not joke in the skills department either.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by King_Mungi
How so? Sasquatch is stronger, and smarter. Ben has the skills, but that didn't help him in both fights against Sasquatch as Walter is not joke in the skills department either. I was just looking at the scans posted above. Ben did take Sasquatches best blows and got right back up and apparantly almost broke Sasquatches jaw. This fight is very close imo.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I was just looking at the scans posted above. Ben did take Sasquatches best blows and got right back up and apparantly almost broke Sasquatches jaw. This fight is very close imo.

Naaaa...you missed 90% of the fight were Sasquatch was toying with Ben saying he doesn't want to fight and clearly got the better of him. Then I posted scans of their second fight when Sasquatch wasn't weakened and pissed..it was an annihilation.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Naaaa...you missed 90% of the fight were Sasquatch was toying with Ben saying he doesn't want to fight and clearly got the better of him. Then I posted scans of their second fight when Sasquatch wasn't weakened and pissed..it was an annihilation. I didn't miss anything. I just forgot that Sasquatch hit Thing with everthing he had repeatedly and it did nothing but knock Thing down and make him mad.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I didn't miss anything. I just forgot that Sasquatch hit Thing with everthing he had repeatedly and it did nothing but knock Thing down and make him mad.

Meh! he didn't hit him with everything he had. If he did Thing would have been dead as Sasquatch can become Tanaraq, the embodiment of death on Earth when it was first commencing alive. He outright commands death and decay and uses it on mankind. As noted Sasquatch was weakened from his transformation.

Jyppe
Depends which Sasquatch this is. Normal, or Mungi's version?

Naad, just kidding. Mungi know's his stuff about the hairy beast. smile

Who do you think is more durable?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Jyppe
Depends which Sasquatch this is. Normal, or Mungi's version?

Naad, just kidding. Mungi know's his stuff about the hairy beast. smile

Who do you think is more durable?

*bah* points to respect thread, anything I have ever claimed has and been shown in the comics

Thing is at base form, but the more angry or more pain Sasquatch gets his durability increase as well.

Jyppe
Originally posted by King_Mungi
*bah* points to respect thread, anything I have ever claimed has and been shown in the comics

Thing is at base form, but the more angry or more pain Sasquatch gets his durability increase as well.

You don't really want me back at your Saswuatch respect thread, do you? smile Besides, I did say I appreciate your knowledge about the character. It's that you're the lone Alpha Flight fan around here, so I had to make a joke smile I hope I didn't offend you enough for Jinzin to make thread about it.

Not even Hulk's durability increase that much when he gets angry, but this is a different character, nor did I mean that Sas's durability wouldn't grown over Ben's.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Jyppe
You don't really want me back at your Saswuatch respect thread, do you? smile Besides, I did say I appreciate your knowledge about the character. It's that you're the lone Alpha Flight fan around here, so I had to make a joke smile I hope I didn't offend you enough for Jinzin to make thread about it.

Not even Hulk's durability increase that much when he gets angry, but this is a different character, nor did I mean that Sas's durability wouldn't grown over Ben's.

No I wasn't offended by your comment.

I have seen several instances were his durability does increase greatly with rage. On the other hand Sasquatch can as noted become an Elder God. Even Shaman knew anything he would do to the Great Beasts would be merely stop gaps at best and the Great Beasts can never be killed.

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