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I'm curious to see what people think. Setting is a flat open parkinglot.

By open do you mean there are no cars?

Yeah, it's just a parking lot. Nothing to obstruct anything.

dooku kills them, eats there brains, shits on there corpses, and watches PPV.

Oh, then Dooku takes it without too much difficulty.

Dooku will simply PWN them

Okay, let me open it up a little:

Is there an instance where you can see the duo overcoming Dooku?

Well they could win if there were some debris and Dooku attacked Luke first giving Vader an opening.

I can't say I see Luke being such a distraction that Vader would have an opening.

well if dooku was sleeping....

I don't think they can coordinate with eachother well enough to overcome the Count. Not even Anakin and Obi-Wan could pull it off.

Agreed. Maybe if this was Dooku after his hands were severed off, then Vader and Luke might pull it off. But otherwise, Dooku would wipe his ass with both of them with hardly any difficulty.

To be fair, I can imagine them having a chance. But as of this time period, Dooku has my vote.

I say the two, to be fair, I think the count's powers are overrated.

The duo. I know, I am almost a ROTJ Luke fanboy, but he is really good by this point. He has already defeated Vader. This may seem insane, but look how good Jorus C'baoth was after four years of training. Luke also has the Kaiburr crystal(I know, it's from Splinter of the Minds Eye, but it is also in the New Essential Guide to Chronolgy, making it canon.)

Just to throw some junk in, if was almost totally agreed that ROTJ Sidious is better than ROTS Sidious. If Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious, he must be > 80% ROTS Sidious, who is around Dooku's level.

If Luke defeated Vader(which he did) then Luke > 80% ROTJ Sidious > 80% ROTS Dooku.

Vader and Luke have a big enough lead to win.

The technical mumbo-jumbo is O.K. and I agree. Luke and Vader (as of ROTJ) are underestimated. I personally think Vader alone could take him, but let's stay on topic, not bash me (preemptitive defense)

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The duo. I know, I am almost a ROTJ Luke fanboy, but he is really good by this point. He has already defeated Vader. This may seem insane, but look how good Jorus C'baoth was after four years of training. Luke also has the Kaiburr crystal(I know, it's from Splinter of the Minds Eye, but it is also in the New Essential Guide to Chronolgy, making it canon.)

Just to throw some junk in, if was almost totally agreed that ROTJ Sidious is better than ROTS Sidious. If Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious, he must be > 80% ROTS Sidious, who is around Dooku's level.

If Luke defeated Vader(which he did) then Luke > 80% ROTJ Sidious > 80% ROTS Dooku.

Vader and Luke have a big enough lead to win.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be, Glentract.

And are you saying that Luke Skywalker is stronger than Count Dooku?

NOOO!!!!! Not at all. He is stronger than 80% of Count Dooku.

Ah. Well for the following argument, I'll suppose that your analysis was correct, even though I have my doubts. But here's something else.

Luke may have possessed 80% of Dooku's raw power and achieved potential of the time, but he had a few weeks worth of legitament training, compared to Dooku's eighty-three years. Not to mention that he never demonstrated the kind of Force mastery shown by the Count, nor can I ever believe that his saber skills come within a mile of Dooku's.

Glentract, it's not Luke + Vader = 160% Dooku. It doesn't work that way. Anakin and Obi-Wan were possibly the most coordinated team of the Clone Wars, hell, of the movie era. But even they just barely overcame Dooku, and that was because of an act of arrogance on the Count's part. The duo in this battle have never worked together in their lives. They were arch-enemies for four years.

I give Vader and Luke a chance, but not much of one.

I'm not saying that they will work perfectly, but then again, they don't need to to defeat the Count.

Also, Luke DOES have tons of traning from things that Obi-wan left in his home on Tatooine. Luke spent around six months studying just this.

Also, keep in mind that someone doesn't need to have a teacher to be powerful. Look at Kar, for example. He was around equal to the second most powerful person in the PT Order.

But Kar spent his entire life fighting and training in actual wars. Luke spent nineteen years of twenty-three on a farm.

Yeah. Glentract, do you have a single instant where you can show us Luke standing up to formidable saber skills to rival Dooku's own, or showing us where he uses Force powers able to make a difference? Or is this more "Luke pwns, little training can make gods, eighty three year old jedi masters suck".

So.... are you saying that Luke can contend with ROTS Obi-Wan or Anakin? Both?

Yes, I am. Look at my whole math crap argument for reasons. Also, things like him having the Kaiburr crystal don't hurt.

I did look at your math crap. Too bad you're assigning abritrary power level like stats to characters who exist in real time science fiction and not a video game.

Try again.

Okay, what are your arguments?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay, what are your arguments?

Much better than your one-lined opinion.

1- Dooku is a makashi master. This gives him a duelling edge. Period. Vader never mastered his style and he has grown slower. ROTJ Luke has little ability at all in this area. He could reasonably tool them both, considering he took on Obi and Anakin both who are much more dangerous than Luke and Vader.

2- Dooku can force choke a jedi master of considerable experience and training while backkicking a younger Vader. This shows that he can easily deal with two dangerous opponents. Since neither Vader nor Luke has shown the ability to overcome by Force someone of Dooku's level (And Glentract, remember you said that Dooku was close to Sidious. In force power terms this would make Vader 80% of Dooku if you want to get petty. Dooku > Luke > Vader by your own previous arguments. He could probably Force choke one and saber the other to death. KO).

In case you slept through the fight, here's the scene:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/930/000obithrow9wk1wy2ma.gif

Do you see that? Prove to me that Vader and Anakin can contend with him. Even your arbitrary power levels favor my argument.

any more scenes like ohh, the whole movie?

Originally posted by Ianus
1- Dooku is a makashi master. This gives him a duelling edge. Period. Vader never mastered his style and he has grown slower. ROTJ Luke has little ability at all in this area. He could reasonably tool them both, considering he took on Obi and Anakin both who are much more dangerous than Luke and Vader.

Anakin was stated as the greatest form five practitioner alive.(This was in PT times). Vader has gotten better than Anakin, as can be expected from an additional 20 years of training.

The thought that Anakin and Obi-wan are better then Luke and Vader is unfounded. Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious, who is better than ROTS Sidious. ROTS Sidious is ~ equal to ROTS Dooku. That means Vader >80% Dooku. By how much is not known for sure, but it is a fair bit, to be sure. ROTJ Luke is even greater than this.

ROTJ Vader = 80% ROTJ Sidious
80% ROTJ Sidious > 80% ROTS Sidious
80% ROTS Sidious = 80% Dooku
Vader > 80% ROTS Dooku

Now, we don't know how much greater ROTJ Sidious is over ROTS Sidious, but it must be by a lot, seeing as he had Bodo Bass' holocron, the entire Jedi Archives, and more at his disposal. Vader may be more like 90% of Dooku. Since Luke is better then Vader, he must be on Dooku's level on his own.

I am guessing that you base you assumption that Anakin and Obi-wan are better then Luke and Vader on shown dueling skill. This cannot be used as base proof. Look at how Anakin and Obi-wan fight Dooku and then look at how they fight each other at the end of the movie. They are FAR better at the end of the movie then when they fight Dooku, yet this is only a few days later. On screen lightsaber fighting is for dramatic-necessity and should not be compared from one fight to another as an indication of skill.

Originally posted by Ianus
2- Dooku can force choke a jedi master of considerable experience and training while backkicking a younger Vader. This shows that he can easily deal with two dangerous opponents. Since neither Vader nor Luke has shown the ability to overcome by Force someone of Dooku's level (And Glentract, remember you said that Dooku was close to Sidious. In force power terms this would make Vader 80% of Dooku if you want to get petty. Dooku > Luke > Vader by your own previous arguments. He could probably Force choke one and saber the other to death. KO).

In case you slept through the fight, here's the scene:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/930/000obithrow9wk1wy2ma.gif

Do you see that? Prove to me that Vader and Anakin can contend with him. Even your arbitrary power levels favor my argument.

Never overcome someone on Dooku's level? Vader defeated Echuu Shen Jon. Echuu was a powerful Jedi Master, student of Mace, and Jedi who survived the Purge for 19 years. Echuu defeated Sev-rance Tann, a powerful Dark Acolyte and commander of the Separatist Forces. He is around ROTS Obi-wan's level from what I can tell, yet Vader pwned him. Vader also took ANH Obi-wan, who seems to be better than ROTS Obi-wan(nto because of on screen fighting, but remember that we can't go by that as it is too inconsistent.).

That's two Jedi, both of whom are around Obi-wan and Anakin's power that Vader took.

Also, you are thinking that Obi-wan and Anakin are 80% as good as Dooku. This cannot or at least has not been proved.

Glentract, you COMPLETELY misinterpreted GL's quotes. Vader is 80% of Sidious's force potential , not UBER WHOOP ASS POWERS. If they really were whoop ass abilities then the following two GL sourced facts will fall out of place:

1. OT Vader is a declinement from ROTS Anakin.

2. ROTS Anakin, after turning dark, is 200% of Sidious.

By your logic, Anakin is 200% of Sidious, and Obi-Wan defeated Anakin, therefore Obi-Wan > 200% of Sidious. Hey, that means he can take on Dooku and Sidious at the same time! Also by that logic, Obi-Wan and Anakin should have completely and utterly torn Dooku apart, but no, that wasn't the case.

Since when have uber whoop ass powers come from anywhere other than the force?

Can I please have sources for those two quotes.

sorry, i accidently pressed Enter while i was typing my reply.

That makes you skip a line... what does you hitting enter have to do with anything?

Really? For some reason hitting enter makes me submit the reply.

ignore

Whatever, where were we? Oh yeah, Glentract asked for sources.

You didn't know that OT Vader is a lot weaker than ROTS Anakin? That is one of the most well-known fact from GL regarding the transformation from Anakin to mech-Vader. Anyways, I believe it can be found in the ROTJ DVD commentary. GL's quote was somewhere in the lines of Vader being, in terms of power, "a shell of his former self"

I'm still looking for the source for the second one.

Anakin was stated as the greatest form five practitioner alive.(This was in PT times).

Proof? Source?

Vader has gotten better than Anakin, as can be expected from an additional 20 years of training.

Proof? Source? From what we see in movie he's worse. Movie is ultimate canon. Also, the GL quote that Obi-Ninja is refering to contradicts this statement.


The thought that Anakin and Obi-wan are better then Luke and Vader is unfounded.

On the contrary, Anakin and Obi-Wan are one of the best teams in the series. Vader and Luke would be like George Washington and the kid from Signs as far as teamwork goes. And it's pretty EVIDENT that Vader and Luke in the movies (THE highest form of canon, which you have yourself said before) are nowhere near as coordinated nor as skilled as Anakin and Obi-Wan.

So really, the idea that Vader and ROTJ Luke are better than Anakin and Obi-Wan as a fighting force lies with proof you have yet to provide.


Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious, who is better than ROTS Sidious.

Proof? Source?

ROTS Sidious is ~ equal to ROTS Dooku.

Proof? Source? Many here will argue he is lesser. Certainly, he displays equal or lesser feats.

That means Vader >80% Dooku.

Really? I still need proof of ROTJ Sidious being greater than ROTS Sidious in Force potential....

By how much is not known for sure, but it is a fair bit, to be sure. ROTJ Luke is even greater than this.

Proof of this? Sources? Is any of this evident or is it unfounded?


ROTJ Vader = 80% ROTJ Sidious
80% ROTJ Sidious > 80% ROTS Sidious
80% ROTS Sidious = 80% Dooku
Vader > 80% ROTS Dooku

Proof of ROTJ Sidious being greater than ROTS Sidious in force potential?


Now, we don't know how much greater ROTJ Sidious is over ROTS Sidious, but it must be by a lot, seeing as he had Bodo Bass' holocron, the entire Jedi Archives, and more at his disposal. Vader may be more like 90% of Dooku.

Oh, cute. "U" representing an Unknown, must be 90% of D because of other unknowns (The unknown qualities of the teachings he had... and somehow they affect his force potential).


Since Luke is better then Vader, he must be on Dooku's level on his own.

lmao! You bloody Luke fanboy. Luke is not better than Vader. If he is as you say, you need to PROVE UP.


I am guessing that you base you assumption that Anakin and Obi-wan are better then Luke and Vader on shown dueling skill. This cannot be used as base proof.

Yes, it can. Movie scenes are the ultimate level of canon. I can use them and I plan to. If the ultimate canon cannot be used, all this arguing is for nothing.


Look at how Anakin and Obi-wan fight Dooku and then look at how they fight each other at the end of the movie. They are FAR better at the end of the movie then when they fight Dooku, yet this is only a few days later.

Uh, they are fighting each other, not Dooku. There is a fundamental difference in them attacking each other, since they are closer in level and it's one on one. I thought this was EVIDENT. Apparently you see only what you want to see.


On screen lightsaber fighting is for dramatic-necessity and should not be compared from one fight to another as an indication of skill.

So you're saying we can't use movie fights now? lmao.... Luke fanboy. Go away, Glentract. I am officially disappointed in the level you've stooped to.


Never overcome someone on Dooku's level? Vader defeated Echuu Shen Jon. Echuu was a powerful Jedi Master, student of Mace, and Jedi who survived the Purge for 19 years. Echuu defeated Sev-rance Tann, a powerful Dark Acolyte and commander of the Separatist Forces. He is around ROTS Obi-wan's level from what I can tell, yet Vader pwned him. Vader also took ANH Obi-wan, who seems to be better than ROTS Obi-wan(nto because of on screen fighting, but remember that we can't go by that as it is too inconsistent.).

No, Glentract... you're right. We can't go by the highest level canon. That would be bad for the Luke fanboy club! lmao

And prove to me how Echuu equals ROTS Obi-Wan?


That's two Jedi, both of whom are around Obi-wan and Anakin's power that Vader took.

Proof? Sources? Anything?


Also, you are thinking that Obi-wan and Anakin are 80% as good as Dooku. This cannot or at least has not been proved.

80% in force potential? Well, it's all movies anyways, Glentract. We can't use movie canon. Let's use Luke/Vader biased sources and hyperbole instead.

Consider yourself

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6489/ownedroad6jn.jpg

Apply some logic to all of the instances in which you asked for proof or look at GL quotes. It will answer them all.

GL wrote SW. He controls it. He is higher level canon than the movie.

lol

Pwned. Luke loses this round, kid. Wipe your nose and get over it.

What's up your ass? Your freaking out over my beliefs.

uh Glentract, you still have yet to consider the GL sourced fact I have provided (It appears that i misinterpreted the second one, Anakin HAD THE POTENTIAL of becoming 200% of Sidious, my bad). I have also given you a possible place to find it.

I don't have the ROTJ DVD to check. Can someone(other then Janus since he seems to be hunting me) confirm this?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What's up your ass? Your freaking out over my beliefs.

You're parading them around as fact, coupled with some of the most skewed logic I have ever seen on KMC.

I'm not uppity over this, I'm horribly amused. You couldn't be more wrong in this instance, Glentract.

I heard Ush say it before. I pmed him, asking whether this is true.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay, what are your arguments?

I find it cute that when you're online, this guy is your little tagalong girlfriend, Glentract. But as soon as you log off and he's on, he's suddenly just another guy.

Originally posted by OBI-Ninja
uh Glentract, you still have yet to consider the GL sourced fact I have provided (It appears that i misinterpreted the second one, Anakin HAD THE POTENTIAL of becoming 200% of Sidious, my bad). I have also given you a possible place to find it.

Assuming the quote is true, what is the problem with Anakin having double Obi-wan's potential?

Anakin has recognized less of his potential then Obi-wan, so Obi-wan can still be better than him.

Originally posted by Ianus
I find it cute that when you're online, this guy is your little tagalong girlfriend, Glentract. But as soon as you log off and he's on, he's suddenly just another guy.

Are you assuming he's a sock? Ask the mods, they will confirm for you were two different people.

I never said Anything about Anakin doubling Obi-Wan's potential. where are u getting that from?

And you pretty much take the 80% thing, turn it to stone, and randomly assume, 'this guy is this much percent of that guy, therefore this guy owns the other guy"

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Are you assuming he's a sock? Ask the mods, they will confirm for you were two different people.
No, actually I was commenting on how he's a total suck up to you and is in your corner no matter the fight, but when you're not around he's more mild and less .... annoying.

Sorry, double Sidious' potential. My point remains. Obi-wan has used more of his potential by this point.

true, but Luke as of ROTJ has hardly discovered any of his potential.

Originally posted by Ianus
No, actually I was commenting on how he's a total suck up to you and is in your corner no matter the fight, but when you're not around he's more mild and less .... annoying.

And your problem with me? I have no problem(nor knowledge, since I only know what he's like when I'm here) but also no power over something you don't like. He can do what he likes; if you think he's annoying, thats to bad, I personally consider him an ok guy.

Originally posted by OBI-Ninja
true, but Luke as of ROTJ has hardly discovered any of his potential.

Yes he has, in fact. Remember that he also has the Kaiburr crystal, making him more powerful than he normally would be.

It's also like when a little kid and an adult try ot learn the same thing. The adult will get it much better then the kid. Luke has an advantage in his amount of training he has had while at a higher mental level.

Ok, but I fail to see how Vader and Luke make a better team than Obi-Wan and Anakin. Obi-Wan and Anakin were said to be the one of the most cohesive teams ever. They were considered the two heroes of the clone wars. Luke may have power and potential, and that crystal but he has little experience and training. Obi-Wan and Anakin, on the other hand, have over a decade's experience working with each other, and know each other extremely well. Luke and Vader at this point were still 'enemies' and I fail to see them having any cohesion whatsoever. Vader is slow and robotic, Luke was rather unprofessional and clumsy. Add that to the fact that they don't know each other too well at this point, you really don't have a very good team.

They use the same form and fight in the same way, which works to their advantage because they would know what each other would do.

The thing is that Vader and Luke are enough more powerful than Anakin and Obi-wan that they don't need to form the perfect team to defeat him.

How exactly are Vader and Luke more powerful than Obi-Wan and Anakin? I have already said that OT Vader is weaker than ROTS Anakin and it is a universally recognized fact from GL! And by watching the movies, I really don't see Luke or Vader near Dooku's level in terms of lightsaber skills.

This is ridiculous. . .

I agree. Glentract, you are the biggest Luke fanboy. Tonight proves it.

Hey, what does Luke say when Dooku is saber-raping him?

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/8687/waaaa2na.jpg

Lmfao!

Originally posted by OBI-Ninja
How exactly are Vader and Luke more powerful than Obi-Wan and Anakin? I have already said that OT Vader is weaker than ROTS Anakin and it is a universally recognized fact from GL! And by watching the movies, I really don't see Luke or Vader near Dooku's level in terms of lightsaber skills.

That quote comes from you alone, no one has confirmed it.

Thing is that it was the technology avaliable back when the OT was made makes them look like they did. If GL says they are better, then they are because that is how the movies were meant to be, not the way they are(which was because of things GL couldn't control).

You can't argue choreography, Glentract, so don't try. And if Obi-Ninja is the only one whose heard of the quote, why is that Nai, Illustrious, Janus, myself, and Escape have all heard of it, and all recognize it as truth?

Cuz it contradicts the Luke Wins Club?

Ah, that explains it. I concede my point.

This is why I never argue here anymore.


DETERIORATION.

Personally I think ROTJ vader would defeat dooku 1v1, but very few on this forum think this is even remotely possible so...

Uh, it's not remotely possible.

do you think there should have been more black jedies or more jedies with purple lightsabers

I think there should be proper use of grammar, punctuation, shift keys and brains.

Originally posted by Sorgo
This is why I never argue here anymore.


DETERIORATION.


Huh.

Originally posted by Ianus
I think there should be proper use of grammar, punctuation, shift keys and brains.

Pfft

Ah . . . Count Dooku has this.

Count Dooku is the greatest practitioner of Makashi that we have seen. He excells in saber-to-saber dueling. Thusly, in an environment where there is nothing to utilize, save for the open ground, how can two only above average duelists, who have not had any experience where they cooperate, hope to take on such an extremely refined and skilled duelist on Dooku's level?

Vader, as we've seen per Empire Strikes Back, is like his master in that, he is very skilled in manipulating the environment, as he threw those large cannisters at Luke during their duel on Cloud City. But he has nothing to utilize here. While Vader is physically far stronger than the Count, he is no where near as quick or precise. For every single blow of Vader's, I'm wagering Dooku can respond in three or more.

Darth Vader is credited with having 80% of Palpatine's Force powers. Dooku is at least 90% himself, so not only is he the superior duelist, but the superior Force user. Vader can't produce Sith lightning, nor can he deflect it, as his fiasco with Sidious has shown. His only real Force power is the grip, but what will that do? Would it even work on Dooku? I doubt it.

Luke only manages to overcome Vader when he unleashes his full fury on the Dark Lord, and that only happened because Vader threatened Leia. Dooku has no knowledge of Leia, and is not in any reasonable position to cause Luke to get that furious. Even then, he'd mess up like his father, and make a brash decision.

Combine this with Luke and Vader's lack of experience in teamwork, you have two dead Skywalkers. Neither alone - nor even combined as a team - are a match for Dooku.

dookus lightning can mess vaders life support up the second he can get a shot in, and with how slow vader is it shouldnt be too hard. he can hold out long enough to position the two of them so their in eachothers way, force push vader so that he either lowers his saber and pushes back, or is taken back by the push, then give him as much lightning as possible before luke gets close enough to be a danger. take him out with superior saber skills and far superior force mastery. then vader is either already out of it, or just holding on. shouldnt be too hard for the count to take vader one on one, and hes weakened from lightning. dooku is just too great a force user and too skillful a duelist.

Originally posted by Ianus
I find it cute that when you're online, this guy is your little tagalong girlfriend, Glentract. But as soon as you log off and he's on, he's suddenly just another guy.

No, I didn't have time to write much of anything, I was in keyboarding class. What I meant by my previous post was just that I was sure you had good arguments, and you hadn't posted them, you had only shot down Glentracts until that point. Nothing more or less. You seem really offensive.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
No, I didn't have time to write much of anything, I was in keyboarding class. What I meant by my previous post was just that I was sure you had good arguments, and you hadn't posted them, you had only shot down Glentracts until that point. Nothing more or less. You seem really offensive.

You're right, I was overboard. I apologize. I was in a bad temper that day.