Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Okay I know this has been done but since there has been alot of debatting around Sidious level of power and Escape and Faunus has made some good points.
This fight takes place where Yoda fought Sidious and is not about what happend between the two in ROTS.

Mace Windu wins, he is faster than Sidious and is able to block his Lightning attack easier it seems than Yoda and it doesn't look like Sidious is that skilled with a lightsaber (not as skilled as Mace Windu).

Sidious flat-out *****-slaps Mace. When will people realize Sids was toying with mace in the office.

People won't, because it is not true. The ROTS comentary heavily implied this, going so far as to state that Mace overpowered Sidious.

That was in a place where lightsaber dictated the battle, which Mace more excels at. Mace isn't going to be able to block a Senate Pod with his lightsaber, though, and he doesn't seem to have Yoda's dexterity at avoiding them.

when will ppl learn Sidious was NOT faking it?! Mace Windu...

It depends, particularly, on where the battle takes place. The mistake that Sidious made was engaging in an all out lightsaber duel against Mace, instead of relying on his true forte, his Force powers.

Mace is too fast, powerful, able to block Sidious's force powers, Sidious may be extremely strong in the force, but i believe Mace to be slightly better. Unless of course Sidious is able to catch Mace off guard with his lightning in which case Mace is done.

Normally, Mace would kick Palps' melted ass, but in the senate dome thing, Palps has a slight advantage; the chairs. Yoda could jump out of the way, but Mace is less agile. Maybe he could Force push them back, but the same thing that happened to Yoda would probably happen to Mace, too.

Mace in no way demonstrates force ability on the level of Yoda or Sidious. In this arena, with Sidious fighting Mace as he did Yoda, Mace gets stomped.

I think it could go either way. Sidious can make use of both of his strongest points, his tendency for dirty fighting and his amazing mastery of the Force. If he can keep Mace at bay, he may stand a chance. But the Jedi Master has proven himself to be very adept in augmenting his physical attributes with the Force. Annihilating several dozens, even hundreds of droids, with his bare hands, leaping a hundred or so yards, enhancing the speed of his saber-strikes until no one, not even General Grievous, can tell where he is going to strike next. . . At melee range, he'll destroy the newly christened Emperor.

I personally believe him to have a chance in ranged or Force combat as well. While not as powerful as Sidious, he comes damn close. He's also the only other Jedi save for Yoda who can deflect lightning with his hands, if to a much lesser degree. I have a shot of him when the lightning intially hits on my other computer. He puts his saber forward horizontally to catch the blast, but a sphere of Force energy blasts outwards, too. This is he catches with his hand, and a small disruption appears next to his right hand. I'll show you the screen-shot, as well as the rest of my argument, when I return.

The point is, Mace can defeat or challenge the Dark Lord in any combat-related category. So if he can close to melee range, he will surely win. If not, there'll be some trouble.

It's pretty much a battle of luck. They both take up too much room to fight in one pod. I remain undecided.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I think it could go either way. Sidious can make use of both of his strongest points, his tendency for dirty fighting and his amazing mastery of the Force. If he can keep Mace at bay, he may stand a chance. But the Jedi Master has proven himself to be very adept in augmenting his physical attributes with the Force. Annihilating several dozens, even hundreds of droids, with his bare hands, leaping a hundred or so yards, enhancing the speed of his saber-strikes until no one, not even General Grievous, can tell where he is going to strike next. . . At melee range, he'll destroy the newly christened Emperor.

I personally believe him to have a chance in ranged or Force combat as well. While not as powerful as Sidious, he comes damn close. He's also the only other Jedi save for Yoda who can deflect lightning with his hands, if to a much lesser degree. I have a shot of him when the lightning intially hits on my other computer. He puts his saber forward horizontally to catch the blast, but a sphere of Force energy blasts outwards, too. This is he catches with his hand, and a small disruption appears next to his right hand. I'll show you the screen-shot, as well as the rest of my argument, when I return.

The point is, Mace can defeat or challenge the Dark Lord in any combat-related category. So if he can close to melee range, he will surely win. If not, there'll be some trouble.

Very astute. But its safe to assume that without his saber, he cannot overpower Sidious's lightning.

No, I don't think he can. Yoda is still the only one capable of such a feat while unarmed. But if Mace can manage to out-manuever Sidious, armed or not, he has a good chance of victory.

A very good chance. I'll say 50/50.

Yes I think it's very close too, though I think Mace will have a really hard time to block Sidious lightning this time. Here Sids can take the advantage of high ground and has much more room to use the force. If he for example is on a higher level than Mace and fires his lightning Mace will probably not be able to deflect it back at Sidious which was the only thing that stopped him from continuing before.

We don't know how yoda happened to get down at the bottem of the senate arena do we? It seemed like one moment they were fighting on the pod, and yoda was owning sidious, and the next time it cuts back to that fight, he's down at the bottem dodging senate pods. If Sidious somehow used his force powers in order to gain that advantage, i'll give it to mace, if yoda thought he was going to have an advantage for some reason from below and jumped himself, i think mace wouldn't make that mistake, b/c he's not about the hopping around.
Mace wins, better with a saber, competent with the force.

Personally I think Yoda is at least equal to Mace in saber combat, poissbly better.

No we don't know what happend between Yoda and Sidious before we see him tossing those pods but the book says that Yoda disarms Sidious but he uses his lightning which is too much for Yoda and tossed him out of the platform. But it's not canon so we don't know, I think it would be very weird if Mace was able to deflect Sidious lightning but it's too much for Yoda, especially since we saw him take it some minutes later.

Sidious has the advantage of the arena, he doesent suck with the saber and could very well stand up too Mace for a while like he did at his office. And that's when he's not using the force which he will very possibly do here and then Yoda almost couldent stand up too him (having a hard time to dodge the pods and deflect his lightning). If Sidious gains the high ground and starts tossing pods I personally think Mace is doomed. He hasent got the potential nor the agility to dodge or deflect one of those pods, Yoda had much trouble with it.

And I don't think Mace could deflect Sidious lightning if he does it at longer range like Dooku did at Yoda. Of course he will be able to hold it but not for long. In Palpatines office we see Mace having a really hard time deflecting the lightning while Sidious is getting more hurt and weaker. If it's from a longer range I doubt he could deflect it back at Sidious.
Also in Palpatines office, exactly at the end of his first lightning attempt we can see that (at least it looks like) Mace is getting hit on his hand, he draws his arm back and holds the lightning with one hand. I think this is a sign that he couldent hold on for much longer and he was lucky that Sidious got to tired. Of course it's only speculation.

Do people forget that it was 4 on 1 against Sidious? He had to enter saber combat or else fight a battle with the force against 4 Jedi Masters. In saber vombat Mace *physically* overpowered Palpatine. I say Sidious would beat Mace 1 on 1 when he doesn't have to fight with his saber.

If someone of you have played kotor, considering the classes of the game, the problem can be resolved easily. Windu is a Jedi Guardian, we can consider it a Master with the lightsaber (one of the special class of kotor2), the best one with the lightsaber in the first three episodes. Sidius is a master in the use of the force in the dark sight. I think that in the movie situation Mace wins against Sidius without any problems because Sidius does an error trying to defeat him with the lightsaber, Sidius has no chances.
In the fight, Yoda vs Sidius, I don't understand why the jedi master loses.....He isn't defeated, he has just fall off because he is unlucky. I think this fight is been very forced, because Yoda had to lose, to justify the episodes of the other trilogy. I think that Yoda has the same power of Sidius, or probably Yoda was stronger but in the movie he is unlucky.
I think that Yoda is as strong as Windu, but they are experts in different jedi disciplines.
Sidius wins because he must win and because he is luckier than his opponents...........

Sidious, he had many valid reasons to lose on purpose to Mace, and In the ROTS novelization it makes it pretty clear Palps has the whole thing set up. The Yoda fight is where we see him use his true power and I seriously doubt Mace would be able to handle it.

In an interview with GL, he said the he felt the book was to biased towards Sidious and that he felt that it was corrected in the movies. If it had been a setup, what would GL have had to correct?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
In an interview with GL, he said the he felt the book was to biased towards Sidious and that he felt that it was corrected in the movies. If it had been a setup, what would GL have had to correct?

Do you have a link?(And if its true, where do you get all this information you always seem to know and I dont? )

i think that sidious definately is on a different level than mace, my theory is that sidious was only "having trouble" with mace is because he was buying time for anikin to arrive, ever since he met anikin he had been planning to use him as his apprentice, and since he's one of the strongest force users in history whats stopping him from looking into the future and seeing him fighting mace and than anikin just about 15min late in deciding to go to the office and anikin doesnt turn to the dark side and his plan dies. if sidious has the power everyone knows he has he would have predicted all of this from the start all up until vader threw him over the railing and why you say did he not predict this? Arrogance! every sith lord has it, sidious figured he had vader wrapped around his finger and up his ass that luke couldnt fase him that i think is the sith's ultimate downfall their arrogance ok now thers my arguement thanks for listening

Sidious, Mace simply cannot contend with the Emperor in the Force, in this arena Mace will be over whelmed by the sheer number of pods being hurled at him. The Senate Dome is one of the worst places to face Palpatine.

Originally posted by Kito Fist
i think that sidious definately is on a different level than mace, my theory is that sidious was only "having trouble" with mace is because he was buying time for anikin to arrive, ever since he met anikin he had been planning to use him as his apprentice, and since he's one of the strongest force users in history whats stopping him from looking into the future and seeing him fighting mace and than anikin just about 15min late in deciding to go to the office and anikin doesnt turn to the dark side and his plan dies. if sidious has the power everyone knows he has he would have predicted all of this from the start all up until vader threw him over the railing and why you say did he not predict this? Arrogance! every sith lord has it, sidious figured he had vader wrapped around his finger and up his ass that luke couldnt fase him that i think is the sith's ultimate downfall their arrogance ok now thers my arguement thanks for listening Spelling and punctuation are nice.

Also, is there a reason you decided to revive a three year-old thread instead of its many, many more recent clones?

Originally posted by Faunus
Spelling and punctuation are nice.

Also, is there a reason you decided to revive a three year-old thread instead of its many, many more recent clones?

He probably googled Sidious vs Mace, and he came upon this thread. That is how i find a lot of different forum sites. He is new here.

Mace has already beat Sidious. Sure it's in the senate room, but contrary to what people believe, I think that Mace being among the most powerful jedi ever who took on millions of super battle droids with his bare hands, force crushed Grevious easily and blocked Sidious's lightning, could easily deflect/dodge a senate pod.

Also, when Yoda and Sidious fought, they were very close to each other and fought w/lightsabers the entire time except for once. So if the same thing happens here, Mace will be all over Sidious.

And no, that Sidious vs Mace fight was not a set up.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Mace has already beat Sidious. Sure it's in the senate room, but contrary to what people believe, I think that Mace being among the most powerful jedi ever who took on millions of super battle droids with his bare hands, force crushed Grevious easily and blocked Sidious's lightning, could easily deflect/dodge a senate pod.

Also, when Yoda and Sidious fought, they were very close to each other and fought w/lightsabers the entire time except for once. So if the same thing happens here, Mace will be all over Sidious.

And no, that Sidious vs Mace fight was not a set up.

Sidious was not going all out on Mace with the force. Yoda is faster than Mace, but had a hard time dodging the senate pods, and even lost his balance. GL has stated in the commentary that Sidious was pretending to be weak towards the end. So when you hear him calling out to Anakin in desparation, it is a fake. Windu on the other hand was not faking. He was actually struggling to hold on to his saber, because the lightning was to strong. If Sidious would have continued the assault Windu would have been overpowered by the lightning.

Case closed.

one thing that has to be considered between Mace and Palpatine is that everything Palpatine did was part of his plan to take over the galaxy...he would have sensed by the force that Anakin was coming to the room where he was fighting the 4 Jedi...he knew that the only way he would have been able to turn Anakin completely to the dark side would be to appear helpless and as if he was being killed by Mace

had it been the other way around and Anakin walked in to see Windu on the floor just barely struggling to hold off Sidious then it's far more likely to have forced Anakin to save Windu and remain a Jedi...

so either he feigned weakness in order to make Anakin kill Windu to save him...or he left left everything to blind luck and hoped Anakin would turn and save him

or a 3rd option is that he knew he would be beaten and manipulated Anakin with a Jedi mind trick (or something similar) in order to save him

as for this case...well i guess it would depend on which interpretation of the real fight was true

"jedi" mind trick?

Originally posted by jaden101
one thing that has to be considered between Mace and Palpatine is that everything Palpatine did was part of his plan to take over the galaxy...he would have sensed by the force that Anakin was coming to the room where he was fighting the 4 Jedi...he knew that the only way he would have been able to turn Anakin completely to the dark side would be to appear helpless and as if he was being killed by Mace

had it been the other way around and Anakin walked in to see Windu on the floor just barely struggling to hold off Sidious then it's far more likely to have forced Anakin to save Windu and remain a Jedi...

so either he feigned weakness in order to make Anakin kill Windu to save him...or he left left everything to blind luck and hoped Anakin would turn and save him

or a 3rd option is that he knew he would be beaten and manipulated Anakin with a Jedi mind trick (or something similar) in order to save him

as for this case...well i guess it would depend on which interpretation of the real fight was true

Lol it was definately not a mind trick.

It is still up for debate whether or not Sidious threw the saber fight, and allowed Windu to overpower him.

IMO Palpatine threw the saber fight. It is kind of weird how as soon as Anakin walked in, Palpatine suddenly gets overpowered. We know Palpatine planned for Anakin to come back. He did telepathically call out to Anakin, while Anakin was in the jedi temple, and warning him that if the jedi destroyed him Anakin would never learn the secret to save Padme. So in other words Palpatine wanted Anakin to believe that Windu and the other jedi were more than a match for him. I doubt Palpatine actually believed this himself, or he would most likely not of challenged them alone.

Whether Palpatine was playing weakness is not up for debate. GL specifically says Palpatine was playing weakness.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lol it was definately not a mind trick.

It is still up for debate whether or not Sidious threw the saber fight, and allowed Windu to overpower him.

IMO Palpatine threw the saber fight. It is kind of weird how as soon as Anakin walked in, Palpatine suddenly gets overpowered. We know Palpatine planned for Anakin to come back. He did telepathically call out to Anakin, while Anakin was in the jedi temple, and warning him that if the jedi destroyed him Anakin would never learn the secret to save Padme. So in other words Palpatine wanted Anakin to believe that Windu and the other jedi were more than a match for him. I doubt Palpatine actually believed this himself, or he would most likely not of challenged them alone.

Whether Palpatine was playing weakness is not up for debate. GL specifically says Palpatine was playing weakness. Palpatine faked weakness during his Lightning barrage: "I-I'm too weak. Oh, don't kill me." The debate is over whether he feigned the duel.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
IMO Palpatine threw the saber fight.
George Lucas says otherwise. It's not up for debate.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lol it was definately not a mind trick.



everything that Sidious does is a mind trick...his ability to manipulate the force so that no Jedi could detect him is about as masterful a deception using the force as is possible and is essentially using the force to trick the entire Jedi order

he obviously knew what Anakin represented and he had to manipulate him from the start in order to turn him...thus again manipulating the weak minded (relatively)...some even argue that Palpatine created Anakin by perfecting techniques his old master began working on (different debate altogether though)

every little decision and suggestion he made concerning Anakin was designed to undermine Anakin's connection to the Jedi...he always forced the Jedi to appear as if they were not giving Anakin the credit he felt he deserved right infront of his face

all part of the set up that led to the showdown in Palpatine's room with Mace

the question is whether the more subtle manipulation of Anakin over many years was enough because he knew he only needed to appear weak and in danger infront of Anakin (even though he was only feigning weakness) or whether he was genuinely in danger from Mace and had to manipulate Anakin more directly to save him

Originally posted by Faunus
George Lucas says otherwise. It's not up for debate.

No.

George said that Windu "overpowered" Sidious. But as Lightsnake and Nebaris have both pointed out in the past before, that doesn't require Sidious to be at full destructive capability.

The novelization, however, throws that idea out the window. If someone wants to suggest that Sidious "threw teh fight!" he or she has the unenviable task of proving it.

Not that it matters. On paper, Sidious has this in the bag. Initially, he's faster and deadlier than Windu in terms of swordsmanship and always maintains a considerable advantage in Force strength and mastery.

Originally posted by jaden101
everything that Sidious does is a mind trick...his ability to manipulate the force so that no Jedi could detect him is about as masterful a deception using the force as is possible and is essentially using the force to trick the entire Jedi order In essence, you're correct. But it's colloquial. There's a difference between mind-f*cking someone and putting a mask on.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

George said that Windu "overpowered" Sidious. But as Lightsnake and Nebaris have both pointed out in the past before, that doesn't require Sidious to be at full destructive capability.Meh.

^ That's going to be in the Dictionary.

The novelization is weird. They fight on a wet ledge, where Sidious slows down to maintain a better grip, then Mace senses what is apparently Anakin's fear and disarms Sidious...

Originally posted by Faunus
George Lucas says otherwise. It's not up for debate.

He never says otherwise. Give me a quote.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

George said that Windu "overpowered" Sidious. But as Lightsnake and Nebaris have both pointed out in the past before, that doesn't require Sidious to be at full destructive capability.

The novelization, however, throws that idea out the window. If someone wants to suggest that Sidious "threw teh fight!" he or she has the unenviable task of proving it.

Not that it matters. On paper, Sidious has this in the bag. Initially, he's faster and deadlier than Windu in terms of swordsmanship and always maintains a considerable advantage in Force strength and mastery.

There is no proof. that is why i said in my opinion, which makes sense.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Mace has already beat Sidious. Sure it's in the senate room, but contrary to what people believe, I think that Mace being among the most powerful jedi ever who took on millions of super battle droids with his bare hands, force crushed Grevious easily and blocked Sidious's lightning, could easily deflect/dodge a senate pod.

Also, when Yoda and Sidious fought, they were very close to each other and fought w/lightsabers the entire time except for once. So if the same thing happens here, Mace will be all over Sidious.

And no, that Sidious vs Mace fight was not a set up.
Right, imagine how it would look if Sids was standing over the corpses of three Jedi Masters, and the fourth struggling on the ground
"Oh, er, Anakin, good too see you, could you eh, come back later, I have to clean this up," *Anakin proceeds to impale sids*
You say that crushing Grievous' chest is some sort of insane task, you speak of the man who within a matter of seconds floored three of the Order's finest Jedi Master. As quickly as Mace force crushed Grievous, Palps had killed two seasoned Jedi Masters, and was about to disembowel another Jedi on par with the General(Kit Fisto). Do you honestly think Mace can win against Sidious, let alone in if the fight is in the Dark Lord's arena. Just look at the way Dooku views Sidious and Yoda, he always runs away from Yoda, and is always sucking Sidious' cock when he is there. Dooku is on par, if not more powerful than Windu, he has never feared Windu, and has outsparred him on several occassions. Sidious>Windu, Palps outclasses Mace in the Force and in sabers is on par with him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He never says otherwise. Give me a quote. When he says that Mace "overpowered" Sidious in the RotS commentary.

It means Mace won.

Originally posted by Faunus
Meh.

^ That's going to be in the Dictionary.

The novelization is weird. They fight on a wet ledge, where Sidious slows down to maintain a better grip, then Mace senses what is apparently Anakin's fear and disarms Sidious...

To be fair, in the novel, it's from Mace's POV and this is when Mace feels Anakin approaching..

So in the novel, Palpatine ,might have had another motive for hesitating.

I hate Star Wars...

Why that?

Overexposure, I guess. After breaking Gideon's will once and for all, I think I'll revert to simply enjoying the movies for what they are, and attempt to purge myself of any and all EU influences.

Originally posted by Faunus
When he says that Mace "overpowered" Sidious in the RotS commentary.

It means Mace won.

Then he went on to say Sidious pretended to be weak. He did overpower Sidious, but i believe Sidious allowed it. I don't think Sidious planned on winning, or why else would he have called out to Anakin via telepathy.

He said he was faking during the lightning sequence, not the duel.

Yes i know. GL said he always had Windu overpowering Sidious, and then later added the part where Sidious pretended to be weak.

Im not saying Windu did not overpower Sidious. I am saying Sidious may have intentionally put his guard down in order to let Mace overpower him. It is clear that Sidious's plan was for Anakin to intervene. Now if Sidious was the one to overpower Windu, the plan would not have worked out.