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In an ordinary fight sids vs. yoda, many say Yoda wins, how about this version?

Sidious by far.

Dark Empire is the best version of sids, and yoda with JUST 300 years is the best of yoda, it's a pretty even fight.

DE Sidious is a step up from ROTS Sidious, so he could win the fight.

I'm not talking about ROTS Yoda, it's Yoda in his prime.

ROTS Yoda is in his prime.

ROTS Sidious beat Yoda, so it's only logical, and probably factual, that DE Sidious wins.

ROTS Yoda is the prime condition.

By the times of Dark Empire, the Emperor spent many years secluded on Byss, training extensively under Jedi and Sith holocrons that he had abducted from various Force-strong planets. His Force powers have been immensely upgraded, to the point where he developed a new ability (The Force Storm) that is capable of destroying anything it comes in contact with.

Sidious is also in a youthful body, with above average reflexes, as well as his even stronger attunement to the Force.

He'd win.

The main reason DE Sidious is as powerful as he is(as far as I can tell) is because he has Naga's Amulet.

I hate it when EU overblows movie characters like Sids onto damn Force gods.

Yes, well that may be simply because you confessionally detest Sidious. People have been indoctrinated that the Ancient Siths ought to be all powerful and Force Gods themselves. Personally, I see no reason why anyone - Sidious included - should have the power to chuck stars or fling Star Destroyers into space. It bothers me. How can such beings be defeated? All people should have weaknesses, especially in movies. Weaknesses make a character 3D.

Darth Somebody said a similar thing months ago. But what he doesn't realize and perhaps you don't is that said Force gods always have glaring weaknesses.

Marka Ragnos was content.

Nihilus was unable to feed on the Exile.

Naga Sadow was undone by his own minions.

Exar Kun was forced into hibernation because of the jedi forces.

Even Freedan Nadd, for all his supposed power, had a relatively uneventful life aside from the capture of Onderon. Such "force gods" don't run around beating everyone. At least, not in the EU continuity. In the Versus Threads, they tend to pwn without mercy.

It's plot device, Escape. Thematically, they are supposed to be that powerful. It's that old fairy-tale evil never wins idea. Despite all the infinite power of these Dark Side titans, they still end up either dead or floating around as ionized air particles. Great fate, isn't it?

Perhaps so. But that power is grossly exaggerated. The ability to chuck a STAR. Doesn't that seem more than a bit overpowered? Now, if it were a house or something, maybe. But an entire STAR?

If they have to possess it, I see no reason why Sidious or Luke ought not have these powers. Sidious got killed, eventually. And Luke just needs his ass beat.

Originally posted by Escape81
Perhaps so. But that power is grossly exaggerated. The ability to chuck a STAR. Doesn't that seem more than a bit overpowered? Now, if it were a house or something, maybe. But an entire STAR?

If they have to possess it, I see no reason why Sidious or Luke ought not have these powers. Sidious got killed, eventually. And Luke just needs his ass beat.

A house is hardly impressive. Chucking around a Star would definitely give the impression they are force gods. However, they still were unable to conquer the republic, simply because there are millions of stars, and millions of systems, it's not a place a single individual can take by force.

For that matter, they are really only overpowered for game or versus purposes.

Originally posted by Illustrious
A house is hardly impressive. Chucking around a Star would definitely give the impression they are force gods. However, they still were unable to conquer the republic, simply because there are millions of stars, and millions of systems, it's not a place a single individual can take by force.

For that matter, they are really only overpowered for game or versus purposes.

So, you can lift a house with your mind? Or do you mean by Force using standards?

Originally posted by Escape81
So, you can lift a house with your mind? Or do you mean by Force using standards?

To an individual who can chuck pods and lift an X-Wing, having a "legendary" and "godlike" individual who can lift a whole house is hardly impressive.

Why does the EU give Sidious all this power. Where was it in ROTJ?

He has one of Naga's Amulets in DE, but not in ROTJ.

Naga Sadow must have been uber with all of his stuff.

One wonders how Palpatine recovered Sadow's amulet when Exar Kun wore it while performing the ritual to unleash his spirit. Perhaps it's a different one.

And nobody ever "chucked a star," we've been over this before. Sadow's ship.

And it was just the core of a star anyway, not the entire thing.

Yeah, Naga had mutiple amulets.

It wasn't necessarily Sadow's ship. There really isn't enough proof to make me believe Sadow couldn't have done it without his ship.

The core of a star contains the majority of a stars mass. To rip out the core, you would have to push through all of the other stellar matter, which is extremely difficult. It takes light YEARS to push through from the core to the surface, the core will be much harder. Ripping out the core may require more energy than moving the entire thing.

Isn't enough proof? Need I remind you that a weakling, Aleema Keto, used Sadow's ship to perform the very same feat Sadow did? Quite obviously, the majority of the power used to perform this feat came from the ship and Sadow's equipment, not the force user controlling it.

That and there was no other instance of Sadow performing this kind of feat outside and independant of his ship. Prove that he did, and then we'll see.

Aleema a weakling? Hardly. She was the most powerful Krath, which is quite an acomplishment. She had years to study from Ancient Sith knowledge and artifacts that Omnin gave her.

You also failed to notice that she didn't control the blast like Sadow. She merely caused the star to explode, which is why she died in the process.

She was certainly not the most powerful Krath. Her cousin Satal was her equal, so she tricked Ulic Qel-Droma into killing him. The Krath themselves weren't particularly powerful, but they had the resources to wage a war. Other than Satal and Aleema, the rest of the Krath are weaklings, not even important enough to be taught by Nadd.

At the height of her power, she was blasted away without so much as an afterthought by Exar Kun.

This is not to mention the fact that her best techniques were simple illusions, easily dispelled by Nomi Sunrider.

And again you're wrong. Read TOTJ. She ripped the core from the star just as Naga Sadow did, and flung it at her Jedi opponents. However, Exar and Ulic tricked her and didn't teach her what the aftereffect of doing so would be (supernova). That is why she died.

Why didn't Naga die in the supernova after he destroyed a star? Because he could control it, something that is much harder to do that simply destroy something.

It you ripped out the keystone on the Hoover Dam, could you stop the water that would rush towards you from killing you? No. It is harder to control the effect than cause the damage.

Does it say, she ripped the core from the star just as Naga Sadow did, or she ripped the core from the star?

When was she ever blasted away without an after thought by Exar? Was she really at the height of her power at this moment? Does being blasted away by Kun mean anything? Kun froze dozens of Jedi Masters without so much as an after though.

She led the Krath, she was the most powerful of them, thats just how it works. And what makes you think that the Krath were weak if they were able to sucessfully wage a war against the Jedi?

Interesting points, Glentract. A third party with TOTJ comics on hand would be nice.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why didn't Naga die in the supernova after he destroyed a star? Because he could control it, something that is much harder to do that simply destroy something.

It you ripped out the keystone on the Hoover Dam, could you stop the water that would rush towards you from killing you? No. It is harder to control the effect than cause the damage.

Does it say, she ripped the core from the star just as Naga Sadow did, or she ripped the core from the star?

When was she ever blasted away without an after thought by Exar? Was she really at the height of her power at this moment? Does being blasted away by Kun mean anything? Kun froze dozens of Jedi Masters without so much as an after though.

She led the Krath, she was the most powerful of them, thats just how it works. And what makes you think that the Krath were weak if they were able to sucessfully wage a war against the Jedi?

God almighty, read the comics. The stars Naga Sadow destroyed did go supernova and he didn't hold them back at all. He ran away so as to not be consumed by the blast, something made easier by hyperspace. Aleema could not do so since she was in the middle of a star cluster and didn't know the star would go nova.

Read Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War, and you will know the following:

Aleema could rip the cores from stars using Naga Sadow's ship, just as Sadow himself did.

Aleema Keto died because she wasn't told that doing so would cause a supernova. Naga Sadow did not die because he knew this and got out of range.

Aleema Keto was head of the Krath, which was started as a club between Satal and Aleema, who were heirs to the Empress Teta System. They killed their parents using the knowledge gleaned from Freedon Nadd's spirit and became heads of the Empress Teta System, and thus the resources and defenses therein.

Aleema Keto became head of the Krath because she tricked Ulic Qel-Droma into killing Satal, her "partner", which in turn increased her own power. Some time afterwards, at the height of her force power, she was blasted away by Exar Kun after a feeble attempt to attack him. This is also after Nomi Sunrider easily dispelled Aleema's best attempts to fight the Jedi.

There were no other Krath besides Satal and Aleema. That's it. Just two. So the use of Ulic to become head of the Krath shows nothing but manipulative skill, not power. The real strength the Krath had was its legitimate hold over the Empress Teta System. The Krath (of which there were only two) were weak. Period. Their biggest threat was their army, an army Mandalore disparaged and which fought with ancient weapons.

In conclusion: Aleema Keto is a weakling. Aleema Keto could mirror feats performed by Naga Sadow. Thus, Naga Sadow's feats regarding the destruction of stars are due entirely to his ship and equipment therein, not his own power, because it is shown that even weak dark force users are able to perform them.

Its great that you bring this knowledge here if it is true, It will show that Naga Sadow's feat of blowing up a star is not as impressive as some ancient sith fanboys think.

And an excellent rebuttal. So, IKC, do you think that as one of two individuals to challenge Ragnos' rule, Naga Sadow was... weaker than say Nadd or Kun?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
He has one of Naga's Amulets in DE, but not in ROTJ.

Ive never heard of this, I'm not saying you made it up or anything but pg. numbers would be nice if you have the comic on hand.

I'm of the mind to believe that Exar Kun is stronger than Naga Sadow. Freedon Nadd's feats, while impressive on the surface, pale in comparison to Sadow's, much less Kun's.

In other words: Kun? Yes. Nadd? Maybe, probably not.

I have read all the comics (TOTJ ect) IKC is speaking of and I must agree with him. His points are all emphasized in the comics.

Originally posted by IKC
God almighty, read the comics. The stars Naga Sadow destroyed did go supernova and he didn't hold them back at all. He ran away so as to not be consumed by the blast, something made easier by hyperspace. Aleema could not do so since she was in the middle of a star cluster and didn't know the star would go nova.

How is he going to go to hyperspace while within the gravity well of a star? Notice that he is within the area where hyperspace is impossible. He had to hold it back for at least long enough to get out of the gravity well. That would take at least thirty seconds, as even the Falcon took longer than that to get out of a stars gravity well.

What did she expect to happen to the star? She's tying to blow it up, why wouldn't it explode? I'm 14 years old and failing Freshman science, yet I know that a star will go nova if you do that to it.

Originally posted by IKC
Read Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War, and you will know the following:

Aleema could rip the cores from stars using Naga Sadow's ship, just as Sadow himself did.

Like I said, even if she ripped out the core just as Sadow did, she was unable to hold back the explosion. Sadow was able to.

Aleema Keto died because she wasn't told that doing so would cause a supernova. Naga Sadow did not die because he knew this and got out of range.

She shouldn't need to be told, it's pratically common knowledge. She's been studying Sith things for years, how could she not know that? Exar within five minutes of looking at a Sith holocron saw what happenes when you use Sith Magic on a star.

Originally posted by IKC
Aleema Keto was head of the Krath, which was started as a club between Satal and Aleema, who were heirs to the Empress Teta System. They killed their parents using the knowledge gleaned from Freedon Nadd's spirit and became heads of the Empress Teta System, and thus the resources and defenses therein.

The Teta system is powerful, but it alone cannot hope to stand against the Army of thousands of other planets.

Originally posted by IKC
Aleema Keto became head of the Krath because she tricked Ulic Qel-Droma into killing Satal, her "partner", which in turn increased her own power. Some time afterwards, at the height of her force power, she was blasted away by Exar Kun after a feeble attempt to attack him. This is also after Nomi Sunrider easily dispelled Aleema's best attempts to fight the Jedi.

First thing we need to do is put this in perspective. Exar and Nomi are two extremely powerful beings. Exar killed Vodo, yet Vodo is better than Yoda. From what I have been told, Exar killed Vodo in seconds after he started to try to kill him. Nomi did defeat Aleema, but it was a hard fight.

Re-read the comic. Nomi escapes from the Krath, then Satal, thinking Ulic to be a spy, attacks him and is killed. Aleema had nothing to do with it.

Also, notice that Aleema was powerful enough to project images that could fool entire Armies; basically a form of Battle Meditation.

Then, on Coruscant she escaped where Ulic did not.

Originally posted by IKC
There were no other Krath besides Satal and Aleema. That's it. Just two. So the use of Ulic to become head of the Krath shows nothing but manipulative skill, not power. The real strength the Krath had was its legitimate hold over the Empress Teta System. The Krath (of which there were only two) were weak. Period. Their biggest threat was their army, an army Mandalore disparaged and which fought with ancient weapons.

She did not use Ulic, she had nothing to do with Ulic killing Satal.

How could their only be two of them when the New Essential Guide to Chronology states that "Satal Keto and Aleema marshaled their Krath forces for a coup in the Empress Teta System." That quote obviously shows that the Krath had a force of Krath, that there were more than two.

Originally posted by IKC
In conclusion: Aleema Keto is a weakling. Aleema Keto could mirror feats performed by Naga Sadow. Thus, Naga Sadow's feats regarding the destruction of stars are due entirely to his ship and equipment therein, not his own power, because it is shown that even weak dark force users are able to perform them.

Like I said, Aleema could "pull out the keystone, but not contain the river". Naga did contain the river for some time. Naga protected himself and his ship from a supernova. That feat is amazing because even the shields of an Imperial Star Destroyer fell in seconds during a supernova, yet Naga protected his ship for at least half a minute before he could go to hyperspace.

Think about this, IKC. How would the ship destroy the star? Tractor beams are to weak. It can't multiply the users power of else Naga would have carried the technology with him, or at least kept himself in a position in which he could draw upon it.

He wasn't holding it back at all. It took at least a minute or two for the entire star to go nova when Aleema used it. That's more than enough time to get away. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sadow held the star back. You're arguing with someone who has the sources in front of him, while it's plain from your previous arguments that you've not read at least DLOTS or TSW, or at least don't remember them clearly.



No she isn't. I reiterate: "God almighty, read the comics." Her intention, and her action, was to rip the core from the star and fling it at the Jedi and other ships chasing her. Period. She was not told that doing so would cause the star to go nova. Period. She obviously did not suspect that it would because she flew into the middle of a cluster of ten stars when she did it. Read the comics.



No he did not. He ran away. You're going to have to prove that he did such, because in my humble opinion you're pulling that out of thin air (Substitute a ruder phrase if you like).



Right. She shouldn't need to be told? Why not? She barely understood how the weapon even worked, and had to get Exar Kun to explain how to use it. She only studied what Nadd taught her, which was very little in comparison to what Ulic learned, much less what Kun himself learned.

Oh, and that was a Jedi holocron Exar studied, made by Vodo Siosk Baas. It dealt partly with Sadow's flight from known space and his use of his ship on a smaller cluster of stars. Read the comics.



Lol.. Why then do you think that they didn't wage war on the Republic on a grand scale? Haven't you seen me state that the Sith War was more-so a few spectacular acts of terrorism? They, combined with the Mandalorians, raided shipyards and conducted a few more piracies before surprising Coruscant after leading away the republic fleet to Kemplex Nine. They would have won had Aleema not betrayed Ulic. (Ulic's plan was to order the admirals of every Republic fleet to hyperjump to the same coordinate.)



Exar slapped away Aleema when he was nowhere near the height of his power. Read the comics. At that point, he was only equal to Qel-Droma. Nomi defeated Aleema easily, read the comics. It was in no way a hard fight. They had a harder time trying to subdue Qel-Droma than they did with Aleema's feeble powers.



No, why don't you re-read the comic. In The Sith War, after Aleema's final betrayal, Ulic ponders to himself on how she tricked him into killing her cousin, Satal, in order to increase her own power.



"zOMG SHE CAN FOOL ARMIES!" And? Armies of non-force sensitives, sure. That doesn't change the fact that, up against force users, she's a small fry, and has never won a battle.



Hello? Have you read the comics? The only reason Ulic was captured is because she ordered all the forces to retreat! It's called betrayal, Glentract. She told them Qel-Droma was dead and the battle was lost. Mandalore even figured it out afterwards. Big accomplishment, she can run away with her army after hanging Qel-Droma out to dry.



This is growing insufferable. The Krath forces they refer to was the army they controlled! Read the comics! Satal and Aleema already had the military in their pocket by the time they offed the leaders of the Teta system. "That quote" is obviously interpreted incorrectly by you, Glentract, because you want what you believe to be true.



Nonsensical, I've already answered this. There is no evidence that Naga Sadow held back the supernova of any star, whatsoever. There is evidence that he ran like hell after using his weapon, because he knew what the consequences would be! Your assumption, I predict, is not held up in the comics.

Oh, and I answered the "half a minute" bit already. It took about a full minute or perhaps two for Aleema's star to go nova.

By the way, didn't you just say that the majority of a star's mass is in its core? Well then, by tossing it away from you, would that not reduce the gravity well holding your ship in realspace?

He ran. Period.



Think about this, Glentract. How would a Sith destroy a star? Telekinesis is too weak. There's, according to you, nothing that can multiply a force user's power or else "Naga would have carried the technology with him" (nevermind the fact that he created several force-boosting amulets. By God, don't look at the man behind the curtain! Glentract has to believe that Naga Sadow is a demigod!)

A weakling can use it, Glentract. That means that Naga's power is not what you think it is.

maybe it is a sith spell that anyone can learn? that solves all the problems.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Think about this, IKC. How would the ship destroy the star? Tractor beams are to weak. It can't multiply the users power of else Naga would have carried the technology with him, or at least kept himself in a position in which he could draw upon it.

If the ship can't destroy the star then how did Aleema Keto do it?

Seeing the things that IKC put down, and no one else has ever done that to a star (without the same ship), I am happily convinced that it was Naga's ship that destroyed the star. Naga Sadow is still rediculously powerful, but not *blow up stars powerful*, and I'm glad.

i don't think it is the ship. i tink it is a spell that anyone can learn, maybe a secret one.

No offense Avis, but that's ridiculous.

why?

Just think about it. You're saying that the power to blow up a star, to destroy a solar system, can be harnassed by someone like Coleman Trebor.

why is that stupid . it is still possible.

Because it's unsupported.

It is still a possible. But yea

It's also possible that Ragnos' weapon of choice was a Spork of Pwning. Still, makes for a silly debate.

i know.

But can he freeze creeks?

Nuh, n00b! ony plo kun chan du dat!!

0mfg!!!11 fr33z1n cr33kz r0x00rz my s0x00rz!!!!

Lmao!

L0Lxx00rz!!1

Avis, your idea has zero support in the comics. Everything regarding harnessing a star/ripping out the core involves using Naga Sadow's ship and equipment to do it. It is no Sith spell.

it was just an idea! forget about it.

Originally posted by Dush-khan Mabeo
In an ordinary fight sids vs. yoda, many say Yoda wins, how about this version? what's DE?

Dark Empire, this is Sidious clone.

Originally posted by IKC
Avis, your idea has zero support in the comics. Everything regarding harnessing a star/ripping out the core involves using Naga Sadow's ship and equipment to do it. It is no Sith spell.

We've seen Aleema Keto blow up a star. We also see Exar using an amulet to defeat Nadd's spirit, does that indicate Exar is a weakling who can't defeat Nadd without the amulet?

Again, please make sure your postulate can be supported by hard evidence. You have made as many assumptions as Glentract. It's the same as me saying since Vodo could resist Exar's freeze ability, it only works on weaklings. Unfounded. Or that since Mace beat Sidious in the movies, he would beat him 100% of the time. Again, unfounded.

You seem to forget the same Sadow dragged a solar flare of another star and was able to create an illusion of his fleet in seconds (a feat Dark Nest Luke attempted to do on a single ship and it tired him out). And that a single amulet of Sadow made Sidious much more powerful than his movie counterpart. If you believe Kun is stronger than Sadow, you'd have to give evidence.

You cite examples of The Sith War, but you completely neglect the Golden Age of the Sith, which describes in detail Sadow's abilities as "Sith Magic."

And we see 2 individuals harness Sadow's ship, we see 2 individuals harness the Starforge, does that mean everyone is capable of running it? Hardly. Unfounded hypotethical.

They don't officially call them "godlike" and the "golden age" for nothing, you know. So what do you do? You assume them weak and ceaselessly try to undermine their accomplishments. Good job.

Originally posted by Illustrious
We've seen Aleema Keto blow up a star. We also see Exar using an amulet to defeat Nadd's spirit, does that indicate Exar is a weakling who can't defeat Nadd without the amulet?

Again, please make sure your postulate can be supported by hard evidence. You have made as many assumptions as Glentract. It's the same as me saying since Vodo could resist Exar's freeze ability, it only works on weaklings. Unfounded. Or that since Mace beat Sidious in the movies, he would beat him 100% of the time. Again, unfounded.

You seem to forget the same Sadow dragged a solar flare of another star and was able to create an illusion of his fleet in seconds (a feat Dark Nest Luke attempted to do on a single ship and it tired him out).

You cite examples of The Sith War, but you completely neglect the Golden Age of the Sith, which describes in detail Sadow's abilities as "Sith Magic."

And we see 2 individuals harness Sadow's ship, we see 2 individuals harness the Starforge, does that mean everyone is capable of running it? Hardly. Unfounded hypotethical.

They don't officially call them "godlike" and the "golden age" for nothing, you know.

It helps when you read everything I write, and you have the source material on hand, Illustrious.

We've seen Aleema Keto blow up a star... by using Sadow's ship just as Sadow himself did. We did see Exar defeat Nadd by using an amulet, and it is correct that at that point in time he was much weaker than what he would eventually become. But I guess you don't register the concept of time passing.

My argument is supported by the evidence: the source material. It's right in front of me. And to say that Exar's freeze spell wouldn't work on Vodo is nonsense, given that Vodo wasn't in the building when Kun cast it. And I'm a believer that Sidious threw the fight, remember?

You seem to forget that Sadow performed those feats at two different times. The reason Sadow could create illusions of that magnitude is due to his having designed a starship specifically for that purpose, much like his "star-ripping" ship was designed for its purpose. You also seem to forget that Aleema Keto could generate these illusions just as well in her own specially designed chamber on her ship.

Pardon me, Illustrious, but have I not explained sufficiently that anyone that is Force sensitive can use Sadow's ship to rip the core from a star? Aleema Keto is a weakling and she performed just as well as Sadow in this feat. The only flaw was that she was not told what the consequences of her actions would be.

It does mean that any Force sensitive can use it. Neither Aleema nor Naga showed strain of any sort while performing their feats. Your hypothesis is the one that's unfounded, Illustrious, given there's zero evidence, not even a shred of indication, to support it. (Yes, we see two individuals harness it. Does that mean that Exar, for example, couldn't? Of course not. Nor does it mean that anyone weaker could not harness it. There is no indication of that whatsoever.)

They "officially call them" godlike because the Sith are wont to build legends around themselves. Even the scrolls Kun studied used overblown language regarding their "legends."

Their power, Illustrious, is not what you think it is.

Yes, and it does help that you actually have read the source material, instead of dragging things out of context.



And what evidence particularly (besides the span of a year or so) do you have of Exar growing that much more powerful, to the point where he would not only overcome the spirit of Nadd, to being arguably more powerful (at least in your opinion) than Sadow or even Ragnos?



Again, stop trying to project your opinion as factual evidence. You have the source material, so use it. Where in the source material does it state Sidious threw the fight? In fact, GL has never confirmed it, the official site has never indicated it, and no one has ever even been able to prove it besides broken cinematography and useless hypotheticals.

So you are assuming that if Vodo was in the room, he would be frozen? Interesting you state that, since the others WERE STILL FROZEN while Vodo was fighting. Care to explain that one with your "source material"? Funny how assumptions that supports your argument are valid, isn't it?



So because Aleema did it, everyone can do it right? Again, unfounded. You are attempting to make an assumption because one had similar results. By this assumption, I can say that Nomi did better than Exar because she had a stronger end result against Ulic, ergo Nomi > Exar.

But no, the second I attack your beloved character fixation, your assumptions based on "source material" are suddenly strikingly valid. You have no evidence to suggest just how much of it is ship, and how much is the person, nor do you have any understanding that Aleema Keto did not know any of the required "sith magic."



You assumed that one other individual doing the feat indicates that it's commonplace. So I assume practically anyone in the galaxy can toss Sidious down a reactor core because a one-handed gimp did it. Again, assumptions based off end-results are equally ridiculous.

And yes, Aleema Keto is a "weakling" with knowledge of Sith Magic. Good job proving that man.



Again, you're attempting to argue a negative, not prove a positive. Exar never attempted it, all other supposition is hypothetical. It would be like me saying Sadow would have conquered the Republic if it wasn't due to being betrayed. Simply something to be toyed with.



Sure, you can believe that. You can also believe that Yoda is blue, and Coruscant is populated by eskimos.

I prefer not living in denial and accepting what the author of the "source material" (your emphasis, not mine) tells me.

Here's a task for you. Prove that Naga was even in that particular ship that Aleema Keto used. You can't.

I have read the source material myself and must concur with IKC. Aleema herself remarked at how powerful Sadow's weapons were. Sadow is not as powerful as he is made out to be.

Originally posted by IKC
He wasn't holding it back at all. It took at least a minute or two for the entire star to go nova when Aleema used it. That's more than enough time to get away. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sadow held the star back. You're arguing with someone who has the sources in front of him, while it's plain from your previous arguments that you've not read at least DLOTS or TSW, or at least don't remember them clearly.

How can you tell that is took a minute or two for the star to explode, or that it took that long for the star that Naga destroyed to do the same thing. I'm referring to in the beginning of the first Dark Lords of the Sith comic. Naga orders his ship to fly between the stars. Between them, there are TWO stars that Naga is IN BETWEEN!

True, I have only read one of the comics, but I do have the Essential Guides which are higher level canon than regular books or comics as far as I can tell(the only comic store with the comics burned down a few months ago.).

Remember, Naga was in the middle of two stars. He can't get out that fast. And, are you going to tell me that Aleema just sat there infront of a star going supernova for several minutes? It had to be faster than that, or she knew what was happening and thought she could hold it back, but failed.


Originally posted by IKC
No she isn't. I reiterate: "God almighty, read the comics." Her intention, and her action, was to rip the core from the star and fling it at the Jedi and other ships chasing her. Period. She was not told that doing so would cause the star to go nova. Period. She obviously did not suspect that it would because she flew into the middle of a cluster of ten stars when she did it. Read the comics.

Why couldn't she just get out? If it took two minutes, like you say, then she should have been able to see what was happening, and if, like you say, the core was no longer there thus negating the gravity well, hyperspace away?

Originally posted by IKC
No he did not. He ran away. You're going to have to prove that he did such, because in my humble opinion you're pulling that out of thin air (Substitute a ruder phrase if you like).

Naga was in between two stars. The Republic ships were faster than the Sith ships at that time, yet they still couldn't get out. You're going to need to prove that Naga fled, because in my humble opinion, you're pulling that out of thin air.

Now, how should Sadow know the star was going to blow? I mean, trial and error doesn't exactly work to well in this instance.

Originally posted by IKC
Right. She shouldn't need to be told? Why not? She barely understood how the weapon even worked, and had to get Exar Kun to explain how to use it. She only studied what Nadd taught her, which was very little in comparison to what Ulic learned, much less what Kun himself learned.

Well Nadd hasn't told me anything, yet I, a 14 year old kid failing science know enough that you don't stand by an exploding star. She must have thought she could hold it back, yet failed.

Even if she didn't know how to use the weapon, she should still have been able figure out in that two minutes that the star was going to blow and hyperspace out of there.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh, and that was a Jedi holocron Exar studied, made by Vodo Siosk Baas. It dealt partly with Sadow's flight from known space and his use of his ship on a smaller cluster of stars. Read the comics.

Why would it being Jedi or a Sith holocron have anything to do with it? More often then not the people who invent a technology know more about it than the people it was used on.

Originally posted by IKC
Lol.. Why then do you think that they didn't wage war on the Republic on a grand scale? Haven't you seen me state that the Sith War was more-so a few spectacular acts of terrorism? They, combined with the Mandalorians, raided shipyards and conducted a few more piracies before surprising Coruscant after leading away the republic fleet to Kemplex Nine. They would have won had Aleema not betrayed Ulic. (Ulic's plan was to order the admirals of every Republic fleet to hyperjump to the same coordinate.)

They made major attacks. They made an attack on a Jedi convention on Deneba. They waged war on Raxus Prime. They made dozens of attacks on shipyards and outpost. They even attacked the most heavily defended world in the galaxy, Coruscant.

Also note things like Krath Holy Battle Armor as seen in KOTOR 2. Are you saying there is a whole line of battle armor for just three people?

And, notice in when Satal and Aleema are eating dinner after they kill their parents. There are two other Krath with them.

Fourth, the Great Sith War in commonly stated as one of the most destructive wars in history and that it resulted in millions of deaths. It was far more than mere terrorist attacks.

Originally posted by IKC
Exar slapped away Aleema when he was nowhere near the height of his power. Read the comics. At that point, he was only equal to Qel-Droma. Nomi defeated Aleema easily, read the comics. It was in no way a hard fight. They had a harder time trying to subdue Qel-Droma than they did with Aleema's feeble powers.

Why do you keep acting like losing to Exar makes you weak? We are talking about a guy who killed an Ancient Sith Lord during a temper tantrum. Yes, that was after Kun had killed Nadd and many of the Massassi.

Nomi was one of eight Jedi who went to defeat the Krath on Cinnagar. If there were only two of them, why would they send eight Jedi?

I don't understand why you are saying it was harder to subdue Ulic then Aleema as if it makes her seem weak. Ulic was equal to Exar. Yoda would lose to him. Being weaker than Ulic does not necessarily make someone weak.

Originally posted by IKC
No, why don't you re-read the comic. In The Sith War, after Aleema's final betrayal, Ulic ponders to himself on how she tricked him into killing her cousin, Satal, in order to increase her own power.

Perhaps I missed that part, but none of the reference books made any indication of that.

Originally posted by IKC
"zOMG SHE CAN FOOL ARMIES!" And? Armies of non-force sensitives, sure. That doesn't change the fact that, up against force users, she's a small fry, and has never won a battle.

Deneba. Strikes against doznes of shipyards and outpost. Yes, I dare say she has won battles. Notice that the biggest threat on Deneba was Arca, someone who did the same thing that Aleema did.

Originally posted by IKC
Hello? Have you read the comics? The only reason Ulic was captured is because she ordered all the forces to retreat! It's called betrayal, Glentract. She told them Qel-Droma was dead and the battle was lost. Mandalore even figured it out afterwards. Big accomplishment, she can run away with her army after hanging Qel-Droma out to dry.

My statement is still true. She escaped where Ulic did not. Was retreat the only reason for that, I didn't and don't think so.

Originally posted by IKC
This is growing insufferable. The Krath forces they refer to was the army they controlled! Read the comics! Satal and Aleema already had the military in their pocket by the time they offed the leaders of the Teta system. "That quote" is obviously interpreted incorrectly by you, Glentract, because you want what you believe to be true.

That is the direct quote, it says Krath Forces. Why wouldn't they say something like "Krath Generals leading their Army". They didn't call the Clones the Jedi Army.

You also were definately wrong on there being only two Krath. There are two of them dining with Satal and Aleema in the first DLOTS comic.

Originally posted by IKC
Nonsensical, I've already answered this. There is no evidence that Naga Sadow held back the supernova of any star, whatsoever. There is evidence that he ran like hell after using his weapon, because he knew what the consequences would be! Your assumption, I predict, is not held up in the comics.

Oh, and I answered the "half a minute" bit already. It took about a full minute or perhaps two for Aleema's star to go nova.

He was in between two stars and the faster Republic ships were unable to get out. How would his have? He HAS to have held it back or else his ship would have been destroyed.

Originally posted by IKC
By the way, didn't you just say that the majority of a star's mass is in its core? Well then, by tossing it away from you, would that not reduce the gravity well holding your ship in realspace?

He ran. Period.

It would reduce it, but you are forgetting that even a planet can hold a ship out of hyperspace. The mass of a planet it thousands of times less than the amount of mass outside of the core.

You also are forgetting that the Republic Ships, which were faster, were unable to get out in time. Sadow HAD to hold it back to get out.

Originally posted by IKC
Think about this, Glentract. How would a Sith destroy a star? Telekinesis is too weak. There's, according to you, nothing that can multiply a force user's power or else "Naga would have carried the technology with him" (nevermind the fact that he created several force-boosting amulets. By God, don't look at the man behind the curtain! Glentract has to believe that Naga Sadow is a demigod!)

A weakling can use it, Glentract. That means that Naga's power is not what you think it is.

Now you are just being stupid. I NEVER said that there is nothing that could multiply a force user's power. Don't you ever say that I said things that I didn't again. I said that Naga doesn't carry the ship with him, not that there is no force boosting technology.

Telekinesis is not to weak. It has been used to do more energy intensive things before(controlling black holes has been done on mutiple occasions by people in an X-wing. Does Kyp Durron's X-wing have Sadow's technology in the nose cone perhaps? ).


You have failed, IKC, to show how the hell the ship would destroy a star.

The reason you have failed to show how the ship did that is because it is impossible. Completely impossible.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was stated as the most powerful ship ever(this was as of the moment it was first built.)

The mass of a star is 198,892,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Yes, that is a lot.

The core comprises ~60% of the suns mass. That is 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Still, that is a lot.

To move that at a rate of 1 meter per-second would require 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of energy.

The energy out put of an entire star is LESS than that(remember that the energy output of one star is that maximum for any ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer).

Incase you are wondering what the energy output of a star(the sun) is, here you go, 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 30.9158549

So, even if the star was moved at a measily one meter persecond, it would require the power of thirty Imperial Star Destroyers to move it. Since NO ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer was able to harness the power of even a single star, it is impossible for any ship prior to the launch of the Executor to produce that energy on it's own.

Remeber that the following equations use a speed of only one meter per second to as the rate that the star was moving at. The true number is thousands of times higher than that, as it was moving faster than the Republic ships could get away at.

In short, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for the ship to have been the driving factor in moving that star. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE! NO POSSIBLE JUSTIFICATION AT ALL!

i think there are some things i must point out. from that equation a star destroyer is 1 kilo. i doubt that. Also there are many different size stars. the ones sadow used may be many times larger or smaller then the sun. Also how do you know the republic ships are faster? i may have misunderstood though.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Now you are just being stupid. I NEVER said that there is nothing that could multiply a force user's power. Don't you ever say that I said things that I didn't again. I said that Naga doesn't carry the ship with him, not that there is no force boosting technology.

Telekinesis is not to weak. It has been used to do more energy intensive things before(controlling black holes has been done on mutiple occasions by people in an X-wing. Does Kyp Durron's X-wing have Sadow's technology in the nose cone perhaps? ).


You have failed, IKC, to show how the hell the ship would destroy a star.

The reason you have failed to show how the ship did that is because it is impossible. Completely impossible.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was stated as the most powerful ship ever(this was as of the moment it was first built.)

The mass of a star is 198,892,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Yes, that is a lot.

The core comprises ~60% of the suns mass. That is 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Still, that is a lot.

To move that at a rate of 1 meter per-second would require 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of energy.

The energy out put of an entire star is LESS than that(remember that the energy output of one star is that maximum for any ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer).

Incase you are wondering what the energy output of a star(the sun) is, here you go, 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 30.9158549

So, even if the star was moved at a measily one meter persecond, it would require the power of thirty Imperial Star Destroyers to move it. Since NO ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer was able to harness the power of even a single star, it is impossible for any ship prior to the launch of the Executor to produce that energy on it's own.

Remeber that the following equations use a speed of only one meter per second to as the rate that the star was moving at. The true number is thousands of times higher than that, as it was moving faster than the Republic ships could get away at.

In short, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for the ship to have been the driving factor in moving that star. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE! NO POSSIBLE JUSTIFICATION AT ALL!

How can you try to bring physics into Star Wars?

because it is SCIENCE fiction. lol. Still SW has physics.

I have seen mutiple sites state that Republic Ships were faster during that time period.

In science, when the size of a star in unknown, 1 stellar mass(the size of the sun) is used.

Plus the Sun is a relatively small star. I can't think of any stars that are thirty times smaller than the Sun, making the equation effective even in a worst-case senario for my argument.

Where did you get one kilo for a star destroyer?

Originally posted by Veneficus
How can you try to bring physics into Star Wars?

Like Avis said, science still applies to SW. That and logic(which is more or less science).

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Like Avis said, science still applies to SW. That and logic(which is more or less science).

Yes but we are talking about a Comic book here. Since when have comics used physics?

Originally posted by Veneficus
Yes but we are talking about a Comic book here. Since when have comics used physics?

If we disband physics, then we would have to disband logic, because physics are logical. You're starting to sound like a noobist. lol.

Seriously though. Physics still apply in SW.

Illustrious:



How many times now have I stated that the source material is right in front of me?



Because after he destroyed Nadd's spirit, Exar came across a trove of knowledge and alchemical devices that Naga Sadow left behind. As well, he became equal to Qel-Droma in lightsaber combat before being named Dark Lord of the Sith. Some months later, during the Sith War, he reaches his pinnacle and is able to perform feats unmatched by Qel-Droma, much less anyone else. (Freezing the Senate, slapping around the Grandmaster like he was initiate, etc. Vodo was stronger than Ulic Qel-Droma.)



Assumptions? Do I have to spell it out for you? If Vodo were present in the Senate building while Kun cast his spell, it would not surprise me if he would have been frozen along with the rest of them. Because he came along after the spell was cast, he was not affected by the spell, because Kun had cast it several minutes before.



This is not an assumption. There is nothing special about Aleema that would enable her to perform this feat. She sure as hell isn't particularly powerful, as I've made the case for time and time again.

Your counterargument is nonsensical and shows a lack of knowledge of the story. Nomi had a cadre of Jedi Knights to support her in subduing Ulic. Ulic, by the way, was not fighting with his lightsaber and didn't want to hurt the Jedi. Read the comics, Illustrious. However, Nomi, by herself, dispelled Aleema's illusions several times. She was unassisted in dispatching the threats from Aleema.



My beloved character fixation? You're the one trying to prop up force users you like to call "godlike." I have plenty of evidence to support the fact that most of the power came from the ship, because a weakling was able to perform the very same feat with no difficulty!



The only reason it isn't commonplace, Illustrious, is that Naga Sadow's ship was a unique weapon. Maybe you don't understand that. The first person to discover the ship after Sadow hid it on Yavin 4 was Exar Kun. How the hell would anyone else have used it if they didn't know it existed or where it was?

Your assumptions are ridiculous, Illustrious. You think this ship was just sitting out in space waiting for someone to come use it? It was hidden and guarded by the monstrosity Sadow created. Exar Kun had the power and opportunity to find and use it. Period.

And yes. Someone with the strength to lift Sidious and the fortitude to withstand his lightning for a time can toss him into an exposed reactor core provided Sidious is distracted with sadistically electrocuting the last Jedi. It doesn't have to be Darth Vader.



Yes she is. She only knew what Freedon Nadd taught her, which was very little in comparison to other Force users of the time. Of course, non-force users were helpless to its power, but that should be a given anyway. If they were weapons, the Empress Teta rulers would be a stick. Aleema and Satal would be swords. Exar Kun and the like would be thermonuclear warheads.



Nonsense. Sadow had no chance of conquering the Republic. He was very unwise by deciding to attack. To say that because Exar Kun never attempted to use Sadow's weapon, and therefore probably can not, is like saying that Exar Kun never attempted to destroy the first Death Star in the same manner as Luke Skywalker, and therefore probably can not. Ridiculous assertion.





Sounds like a puff piece to me. Overblown language and delusions of grandeur. Believe yet, Illustrious?



Yes I can. Apparently you haven't read TOTJ. Quoting!







Proof enough, Illustrious?







Proof enough, yet? It's the ship! The ship! What's that? I have no proof? Read the comics!

You're like every other person I know who has taken debate. You think you know the facts and that your debating skills will cover you, but you don't, and it doesn't. I have no antipathy towards you, but it's infuriating having to explain this over and over when you could just read it yourself.

I have to agree with that particular reasoning. SW literature often relies on scientific explanations and logic itself runs along similar principles. If anything, the two are intertwined.

you are talking about Glentract right?

Yes, I was.

Glentract:



... Right. So if the Essential Guides contradicted a movie, are the Essential Guides canon? Hell no. No secondary source can be considered higher canon than the primary source. To state otherwise is ridiculous.



Being between two stars is very different from being in the middle of ten. Naga Sadow was fleeing his pursuers at the time and decidedly was notstationary.

Oh, Glentract, how about you turn the page where the same holocron states explicitly that "According to their own holocron, the adept Naga Sadow escaped the cosmic holocaust he created... and vanished with his followers."

Huh. Sure as hell sounds to me like he ran away from the supernova, exactly as I've maintained.



You're arguing about this after admitting you've only read one comic from the beginning of the series, and you're very wrong throughout.

Naga was fleeing when he had his ship steered between the two stars, using his weaponry to throw the cores at his Republic pursuers. Aleema had parked the ship and waited in the middle of the Cron Cluster for her Jedi and Republic pursuers. I wrote, by the way, that the reaction took at least a minute. There is nothing in the comic that states that Aleema tried to hold anything back. She had just noticed that the Star was starting to go nova after she shut down the weapon's power source (another bit of evidence that the power is in the ship,), and she ordered the ship to escape full-throttle as she realized what was happening. It was too late, because they had inertia to overcome and they didn't know the consequences.

Sadow had neither of those problems.



A) Because she and Crado spent their precious time enjoying their victory.

B) Because she didn't realize what was happening until it was too late.

C) Because there were nine other suns surrounding the ship. Read the comics.



Already answered this, read above.



Mostly because he invented the damn weapon, Glentract. Atomic scientists, I believe, were able to predict with reasonable accuracy what the Atomic Bomb was capable of before testing it. That, and the man was a genius at science (not at other things). Why would he not know?



Wrong yet again. I've answered this. It wasn't exploding until it was too late for her to escape. Why do you continue to argue things you haven't read about? "She must have" is simple bull, Glentract. She didn't know or believe anything of the sort.



Exactly what difference does this make? How was she supposed to learn this? Was she supposed to look at the script, or something?

"zOMG, ANAKIN SHOULD HAVE KNOWN HE'D GET DISMEMBERED, HE SHOULD HAVE JUMPED SOMEWHERE ELSE!"



I corrected you to emphasize the point that you know zilch about what you're arguing about.



There. I corrected you.



Excuse me... are you taking KOTOR as canon? KOTOR items?

Oh, and need I remind you that the Krath had an army of non-force users in their pocket?

And it was two people, by the way. Ulic was no Krath, he was a Sith Lord.



Neither of which used Sith magic. Satal and Aleema were the only force sensitives among them.



A "mere terrorist attack" could be a nuclear bomb in New York City, Glentract.

I'll run down a small list for you:

Raids on shipyards? Terrorism.

Luring the enemy away and attempting a coup at Coruscant? This may be the only real battle of the Sith War, and even then it caused more wanton destruction and piracy than a true battle would.

Destruction of the Cron Cluster, and therefore Ossus and other surrounding planets? Terrorism.



Glentract, reference books do not trump primary sources. They cannot. Period.



She wasn't present at Deneba, Deneba was a droid ambush. The strikes against shipyards and outposts were after Qel-Droma had joined her. She's never won a battle by herself, not against Force users.



Lol. And coincidentally you did not read the comics. Don't argue about this until you do, because retreat was the only reason. Mandalore himself stated it.



Did the Jedi own the clones or control their movements as a whole? Hell no. That's why they're called the republic's army. The Krath army had not one force sensitive.



Oh really? Can you name them, perchance, or show me where they've used the Force?

No. Because they aren't named, and don't use the Force. Nadd only trained Satal and Aleema.



I've already answered this. Are you not aware that he threw the stars at his pursuers? How the hell would the Republic fighters have escaped the supernova when they were vaporized by Sadow's initial action?



Sadow was already at full throttle, or damn near so because he was fleeing the Republic, at sublight speeds. He had plenty of time and speed to get away and jump to hyperspace. The gravity well was not, obviously, large enough to hold him in realspace.



They were dead already. Already answered this.

And your conclusions using the Star Destroyer are weakened by the fact that it is stated explicitly, several times in the comics, that Sadow's ship and weaponry wrenched the cores from stars.

In conclusion: Read the comics.

Oh good, do you want a cookie for that?



Can you prove definitely that Vodo was stronger than Ulic? Can you indicate definitely that he gained so much more power that he instantly vaulted over guys like Nadd's embodiment, Sadow or even Ragnos?



Things get a lot easier to refute when you don't read, doesn't it?

First off, it is an assumption if you claim Vodo would have been frozen if he was there. Secondly, he had to maintain the spell, and Vodo walked in, while the rest of the senate was still frozen, he was able to duel Vodo. How do you explain this?



Again, someone that knows "Sith Magic" hardly qualifies as "nothing special." You need to brush up on lore.



No, I was pointing out and laughing at your nonsensical logic in attempting to juxtapose the OUTCOME rather than the circumstance.

READ THE POST, I'm tempted to use some rather unkind terminology right now.

You're attempting to compare things based solely on outcome with no supporting evidence. Either find some from your beloved "source material" that is right in front of you, or STFU.



Correctly. The author called them "godlike" not me.

Like I said, what next? Are you going to argue that Yoda was blue?

Again, Aleema is hardly a weakling in the conventional sense any more than Malak or Revan are weaklings for being able to operate the Star Forge. Your logic doesn't stack up. You haven't been able to indicate that Aleema is a weakling, despite all your slandering of that word.



Okay, and your point being? How does this particularly undermine Sadow's work exactly?

You're the one assuming Sadow is weak because he has powerful toys. How does that stack up?

Sadow has powerful weapons, THEREFORE he's a weakling? Yay for shitty logic man.

The only assumptions I made are satires of the garbage you're spewing. Please continue, I do like being sardonic.



You claim Exar is stronger than Sadow, Nadd, and a host of other Ancient Sith, so why exactly would being weaker than Exar be belittling in your opinion? Not to mention you can hardly substantiate your comparisons.



So you're arguing that Kun, who was never known for being a great pilot, can make that one in a million shot that Luke (who was known as a good pilot) barely could?

Yes, you're right. It's ridiculous to assume Kun can't do anything.

Read Golden Age, Sadow as closer to his goal than you give him credit for.



Hardly. You use an allusion from a source that details a time BEFORE the golden Age instead of me, who uses the actual Golden Age comics themself. Another bit of faulty logic. Good job.



Yes, clearly, once again, Kun's word is law. If Kun says he is god, he clearly is.

How exactly is Kun saying this more viable evidence than the NARRATOR saying Sadow as godlike again? Oh wait, only to a Kun fanboy.



It's Naga Sadow's ship, but is it the very ship Naga Sadow used for the demonstrated Star destruction? You can't prove that. Why? Because I'm asking you to prove something that is far too narrow, and nothing short of say... a serial number can indicate that. You are using the same ridiculous logic.

You are arguing the following bits of logic:

1.) Sadow's ship did the work, ergo he's weak even though the narrator describes numerous times that Sadow and the rest of the Ancient Sith are godlike and powerful.

2.) Exar Kun, who loots the remnant artifacts of the Ancient Sith is somehow more immersed and more powerful using their ancient teachings than those individuals who were immersed and made the artifacts in the first place.

3.) You know more about Sadow with your excertations of Naga Sadow when I am holding the GOLDEN AGE OF THE SITH in front of me. Weren't you the one arguing with Nai Fohl that the TOTJ about Exar Kun is more accurate than the JA account of Exar's spirit? Funny how the logic works both ways and it's biting you in the ass. You are effectively telling me that Exar's comics have more on Sadow than Sadow's comics.

Like I said, either get Golden Age and read it, or STFU. I don't feel like debating with people who have no clue.

Listen. If you want to argue with what the narrator repeatedly states in the most relevant series of comics, then you can continue being delusional and in denial.

I personally, have no intention of going in circles with an individual who can not accept than an individual is possibly stronger than Exar Kun.

Stop jumping on your only wild card.

I am using Naga's comics, like you are using Kun's. Now tell me, if I want to know about Naga Sadow, would I go to his own comics or would I go to comics about Exar Kun?

Please, stop being difficult and quit while you're only marginally behind.

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract:

IKC:

Originally posted by IKC
... Right. So if the Essential Guides contradicted a movie, are the Essential Guides canon? Hell no. No secondary source can be considered higher canon than the primary source. To state otherwise is ridiculous.

The comics are a lower level canon than the movies though. It goes movies, reference books, novels and comics. Primary and secondary sources have nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by IKC
Being between two stars is very different from being in the middle of ten. Naga Sadow was fleeing his pursuers at the time and decidedly was notstationary.

Oh, Glentract, how about you turn the page where the same holocron states explicitly that "According to their own holocron, the adept Naga Sadow escaped the cosmic holocaust he created... and vanished with his followers."

Huh. Sure as hell sounds to me like he ran away from the supernova, exactly as I've maintained.

It doesn't matter if there were two or a billion stars. A supernova explosion expands faster than his ships maximum speed.

He escaped, but had to fly through the supernova to do that.

Originally posted by IKC
You're arguing about this after admitting you've only read one comic from the beginning of the series, and you're very wrong throughout.

Naga was fleeing when he had his ship steered between the two stars, using his weaponry to throw the cores at his Republic pursuers. Aleema had parked the ship and waited in the middle of the Cron Cluster for her Jedi and Republic pursuers. I wrote, by the way, that the reaction took at least a minute. There is nothing in the comic that states that Aleema tried to hold anything back. She had just noticed that the Star was starting to go nova after she shut down the weapon's power source (another bit of evidence that the power is in the ship,), and she ordered the ship to escape full-throttle as she realized what was happening. It was too late, because they had inertia to overcome and they didn't know the consequences.

Sadow had neither of those problems.

Is that your only argument? I have higher level sources then you. Get over it.

It doesn't matter if there were two or a billion stars. A supernova explosion expands faster than his ships maximum speed.

He escaped, but had to fly through the supernova to do that.

Originally posted by IKC
A) Because she and Crado spent their precious time enjoying their victory.

B) Because she didn't realize what was happening until it was too late.

C) Because there were nine other suns surrounding the ship. Read the comics.



Already answered this, read above.

It doesn't matter if there were two or a billion stars. A supernova explosion expands faster than his ships maximum speed.

He escaped, but had to fly through the supernova to do that.


Originally posted by IKC
Mostly because he invented the damn weapon, Glentract. Atomic scientists, I believe, were able to predict with reasonable accuracy what the Atomic Bomb was capable of before testing it. That, and the man was a genius at science (not at other things). Why would he not know?

A high percentage of Atomic Scientist, the very people who invented the weapon, believed that the Atomic Bomb would set off a chain reaction that would destroy the planet. It didn't. Why do you think they have that little thing called test runs.

Originally posted by IKC
Wrong yet again. I've answered this. It wasn't exploding until it was too late for her to escape. Why do you continue to argue things you haven't read about? "She must have" is simple bull, Glentract. She didn't know or believe anything of the sort.

Is that your only argument? I have higher level sources then you. Get over it.

It doesn't matter if there were two or a billion stars. A supernova explosion expands faster than his ships maximum speed.

He escaped, but had to fly through the supernova to do that.

Originally posted by IKC
Exactly what difference does this make? How was she supposed to learn this? Was she supposed to look at the script, or something?

"zOMG, ANAKIN SHOULD HAVE KNOWN HE'D GET DISMEMBERED, HE SHOULD HAVE JUMPED SOMEWHERE ELSE!"

Exar learned in within minutes of looking at a holocron. She should have learned it within the months she studied them for.

Arrogance.

Originally posted by IKC
I corrected you to emphasize the point that you know zilch about what you're arguing about.

Is that your only argument? I have higher level sources then you. Get over it.

Originally posted by IKC
There. I corrected you.

lol

Originally posted by IKC
Excuse me... are you taking KOTOR as canon? KOTOR items?

Oh, and need I remind you that the Krath had an army of non-force users in their pocket?

Originally posted by IKC
And it was two people, by the way. Ulic was no Krath, he was a Sith Lord.

Items in KOTOR not affected by gameplay are canon.

Originally posted by IKC
A "mere terrorist attack" could be a nuclear bomb in New York City, Glentract.

I'll run down a small list for you:

Raids on shipyards? Terrorism.

Luring the enemy away and attempting a coup at Coruscant? This may be the only real battle of the Sith War, and even then it caused more wanton destruction and piracy than a true battle would.

Destruction of the Cron Cluster, and therefore Ossus and other surrounding planets? Terrorism.

Terrorism is defined as, "the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear."

During none of those was force used exclusively against civilians.

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract, reference books do not trump primary sources. They cannot. Period.

They do. They are a higher level canon. They can. Period.

Originally posted by IKC
She wasn't present at Deneba, Deneba was a droid ambush. The strikes against shipyards and outposts were after Qel-Droma had joined her. She's never won a battle by herself, not against Force users.

Nor did Exar.

Originally posted by IKC
Lol. And coincidentally you did not read the comics. Don't argue about this until you do, because retreat was the only reason. Mandalore himself stated it.

Is that your only argument? I have higher level sources then you. Get over it.

Originally posted by IKC
Did the Jedi own the clones or control their movements as a whole? Hell no. That's why they're called the republic's army. The Krath army had not one force sensitive.

The Jedi were the generals, the leaders, the controllers of the Army. It was their army.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh really? Can you name them, perchance, or show me where they've used the Force?

No. Because they aren't named, and don't use the Force. Nadd only trained Satal and Aleema.

Can you name all 10,000 PT Jedi? No, you can't, so they don't exist. Ha. I can use your logic too.

Originally posted by IKC
I've already answered this. Are you not aware that he threw the stars at his pursuers? How the hell would the Republic fighters have escaped the supernova when they were vaporized by Sadow's initial action?

Sure. All of them were vaporized. How did Vodo get word of this if that is true? We know that a supernova explodes faster than Sadows ship. Only some of the faster Republic ships were able to get out.

Originally posted by IKC
Sadow was already at full throttle, or damn near so because he was fleeing the Republic, at sublight speeds. He had plenty of time and speed to get away and jump to hyperspace. The gravity well was not, obviously, large enough to hold him in realspace.

It doesn't matter if there were two or a billion stars. A supernova explosion expands faster than his ships maximum speed.

He escaped, but had to fly through the supernova to do that.

Originally posted by IKC
They were dead already. Already answered this.

Then how did Vodo learn about it?

Originally posted by IKC
And your conclusions using the Star Destroyer are weakened by the fact that it is stated explicitly, several times in the comics, that Sadow's ship and weaponry wrenched the cores from stars.

Pretty crappy excuse. The comic is wrong. Logic and science take presendence over it.

Originally posted by IKC
In conclusion: Read the comics.

In conclusion: Use what sources you have.

Ah, and we dive into the insults when we start losing. Hm.



Nice and condescending. Actually it lends more credibility to me, whereas we don't know whether or not you're reading the material.



Vodo was able to restrain Ulic on Coruscant. Granted, this was with the help of other Jedi, but the same Jedi were present when Exar Kun walked into the Senate. (By the way, it's a misconception that Kun froze the Jedi, he only bothered with the hordes of non-force users present. I just looked over the material again). Obviously, Kun then is exponentially more powerful than Ulic, given they didn't even try the same technique on him.



I'd think this applies more to you than me, Illustrious, since we're arguing based on the material in my possession.



Of course it is an assumption. Why do you think that I typed, "It would not surprise me?"

Second, it is another assumption that he had to maintain his spell. You do not know that, and can't possibly claim to. There's nothing in the comic indicating anything of the sort. And even if he did, that only increases his capabilities, since he was able to both hold the spell and easily defeat the Grandmaster of the Jedi.

How do you explain that?



You need to brush up on context. Compare her with other Force users of the time period and she's a small fry, easily brushed away.

That and I reiterate: She knew very little Sith magic, and what she knew was only what Nadd decided to teach her.



Getting upset, are we?

Tell me something: How are Sadow's and Aleema's actions regarding the stars different in any way? Other than escaping the supernova, they are not. Therefore, they are comparable. You, who have zero evidence, are bringing up hypothetical "zOMG, WHAT IF THEY'RE NOT THE SAME SHIP?!!" when there's no indication of that whatsoever in either comic series, and other such arguments.



So, like Glentract has before, you seize upon one quote and instantly disparage all other evidence for its sake?



Yes she is. Was Aleema among the most powerful force users of her time? No. She was a side character, a distraction for the Sith. Her only contribution was the Krath army and her illusions. She is in no way comparable to Revan or Malak. Aleema is a weakling, and she performed the same feat as Naga Sadow. Ergo, Naga Sadow's feat is less impressive.



Because it indicates that not all of his impressive feats were due to his Force power alone, making him not the demigod you think he was. I've stated multiple times that Sadow was a scientific genius and a great alchemist. I'm in no way undermining those achievements. I am undermining, rightly, your flawed opinion of his Force power.



Because she was weaker than Exar, far weaker, at a time when Exar was weak himself. She was weak enough to be blasted away casually and knocked out.



You're assuming then that Kun is not known to be a good pilot despite that he managed to invade Ossus before the Cron firestorm hit with his personal craft without taking so much as a scratch. It is reasonable to say that Kun is, as a Force user, at least an above-average pilot.

You also assume that Kun would never be able to make the shot, which is ludicrous.



Really? Is that why Marka Ragnos never dared to attack the Republic? Is that why it's said that he knew the Sith were unprepared for war? Is that why Sadow is credited with bringing about the downfall of the Sith Empire?



Never mind that the scrolls Kun studied hail from the Golden Age, and are every bit as reliable. The Sith inflate their own reputations, this is undeniable.



Aw, isn't that cute, you seize on the fact that two of my quotes are stated by Kun. Oh, but you ignore all the others.

Nevermind that nothing in the Golden Age contradicts what Kun said. Nevermind that there's no reason for Kun to be wrong, considering he'd spent months upon months reading what Sadow and his followers left behind. You have to believe that Sadow was a demigod.

Continuing after this,



Who exactly is ignoring the narrator here? You want me to quote him again?





Yes, it is. You're asking me to prove that it is the very same ship? This is an absolutely ridiculous question akin to asking someone if the Naga Sadow of the Golden Age comics is the same Naga Sadow mentioned in the Dark Lords and Sith War comics. The premise of your question is ludicrous, Illustrious. There's no indication that it is not the same ship, and seeing as Yavin IV was Sadow's final resting place, it goes without saying that his ship would be there as well.



Sadow's ship did the work, ergo he's not as powerful as you think he is. Have you ever heard of dramatic hyperbole, Illustrious? What is godlike to someone that can't use the force, for instance? And who is to say that later Force users are not godlike and powerful?



Even though this is a different argument, I believe this because I submit that Exar Kun was able to study more aspects of the culture and teachings than the ancients had access to.



The problem with your assertion, Illustrious, is that you've offered no contradictions from the comics to anything I've argued. Show me the passage where it reads that Naga Sadow's power is what caused the core to be ripped from a star. Show me the passage where it reads that the ship Naga Sadow fled and destroyed a star on is not the same ship that Kun later found on Yavin IV.

You can't, because your assertions aren't there.

Continuing:



Again, how about you offer some contradictions to my points from the comics rather than throwing out your straw man argument about the narrator describing them as "godlike?" That seems to be your only point, and it's a weak one.



Show me where I've stated as fact that Exar Kun was the most powerful being ever to appear in the galaxy. That is not what we're arguing. I've stated near such as my opinion, and have shown plenty of evidence indicating that the beings believed by you and others to be more powerful than him are not as powerful as you think they are.



Take your own advice and stop seizing on the "godlike" quote.

Glentract:



You're completely off-base. If I had a book about Mein Kampf that contradicts specific things written in Mein Kampf, which one is true?

Mein Kampf. It's called primary sources. They cannot be contradicted by reference works or secondary sources unless they use another primary source. Go to any academic and claim otherwise and they'll laugh in your face.



Excuse me, how about some proof? That's an assumption, and a poor one at that. The supernova didn't start instantly regardless, as shown in TSW, so because he was at maximum speed he had plenty of time to escape.



Again, proof? All sources contradict you.



Again, no you don't. But please, don't let facts get in the way of your argument.



Any specifics on this? Proofs? Why would they test it if they believed such, anyway? They had already split the atom and that hadn't happened.



At Vodo's holocron. There is no instance of Aleema ever even touching a holocron. She learned what little she knew directly from Nadd's spirit.

Ignorance.



What, according to you? Arbitrary and ridiculous. "Exar Kun's Light Battle Armor" my eye.



Indeed? How many times must I state that civilians were butchered by Sith forces whenever they got the chance? The Cron cluster was destroyed because Exar Kun wanted the treasures of Ossus. That isn't war, that is terrorism.



According to who? I've already answered this. It's ridiculous to assert that a reference book can contradict a primary source and be correct.



No, the jedi were the ground and air commanders of each battle. Only Palpatine truly controlled the army and decided when and where it would fight. It's the difference between tactical and strategic leadership. It was the Republic's army, not the Jedi's.



Oh, I guess Exar didn't strike down Vodo Siosk Baas or Odun-Urr by himself. I must have been hallucinating when I read the comics that you don't own. Maybe the comics themselves don't exist!



Can you name which Krath used the force? No, other than Satal and Aleema, you can't. They were the only important Krath, period.



Because Vodo had access to a Sith holocron and recorded his own using it. Again, no we don't know that a supernova explodes faster than a ship can move. None of the Republic ships survived Sadow's initial strike to be vaporized by the supernova.



Oh, okay. I guess Star Wars is wrong, because logic and science would say the Force doesn't exist. Because we all know science can never be wrong.

Alright everyone, calm down! Lord Glentract has solved everything for us!

Oh. And Sidious wins, easily.

I'm not the one losing, you're the one that's spewing contextless points and not substantiating anything.



How does not having the material specifically on Naga Sadow (read Golden Age of the Sith) lend you any credibility? Please, don't prop yourself up if you aren't ready to get knocked down.



Kinda hard to try a technique if they're frozen, don't you think?



So the Senate just conveniently didn't do anything while he was giving his little soliloquy to Vodo? They were awed by his presence and refused to move a muscle?

Are you attempting to argue now that Kun had more cummulative force ability than every individual in the chamber?



It's not the number of techniques, it's the right techniques. She only has to know the right techniques in order to accomplish the ends.



Nope, only turning your bad logic against you.



They are visually comparable. It is not, in effect, the exact same. And as Glentract said, you have yet to offer a feasible understanding about how Aleema was not able to get away. You even so much as conveniently painted yourself into a corner.



It's not an isolated quote. It's repeated reiterated and there are other modifiers used to express their power. Do you know the difference between repetition and hyperbole?

Oh wait, nevermind, you don't have the comics in front of you. Go back to arguing that Yoda is blue, I'd love to see you try that.

In fact, this "evidence" is all you have. You hop on the fact that Sadow didn't indicate a lot of abilities, he didn't repeatedly slash people up, and you use it to try to establish he's weak. You're the cardinal victim of the horrible logical fallacy of absence of proof is proof of absence.



Jaden Korr pushed aside a cargo cart. NJO Luke did the same thing in the NJO series. Does this indicate Jaden Korr is as powerful as Luke?

No. Assumption. You're once again assuming Naga Sadow is not powerful when it runs contrary to every evidence offered in GOLDEN AGE OF THE SITH, which, need I remind everyone, you have not read.



And Maul was killed at a time when Obi-Wan was weak, what's your point? You still fail to substantiate the comparison. Again, quite with the overly grandiose language when describing your favorite character.



When did I assume he never could? I said you can't assume he can. That's not the same thing.

If you are attempting to put words in my mouth just so you can make your pitiful argument look stronger, don't bother.



Marka Ragnos not attacking the Republic was because he knew the Sith would split into factions beneath him, so even if he were to accomplish the feat, his own throne and life wasn't guaranteed. He said nothing of the sort of Naga Sadow being unable to accomplish the sort.

Again, you're comparing result instead of circumstance. Learn to compare circumstance, or it may as well be debating with a kid.



Yet somehow this doesn't apply to Kun. Right.

Kun studies scrolls from the Golden Age, ergo he's more powerful than the people who write them, right? Good luck proving that.



I believe I addressed that.



Yup. I have to believe what the narrator tells me over what some fanboy wants to believe. Yeah, I think that's right.

I suggest you do the same. You haven't even read the comics, and you are attempting to argue out of your ass, and even go so far as telling others to "READ THE COMICS."

Here, here's something just for you: READ THE COMICS.



The narrator said it was Sadow's ship. When did I deny that. I asked can you prove it's the SPECIFIC ship he used when he detonated the star. You couldn't.

Why? Because if you bothered to read the post, you would notice I was being satirical of your crappy logic.

I love how you ignore all my points against your faulty logic and act like throwing quotes on them will cover it up. It doesn't. And you still should "READ THE COMICS."



Your logic not mine.

"Aleema and Sadow did the EXACT SAME THING, that must mean Sadow isn't as powerful as mentioned."

First off, the postulate isn't necessarily true, and secondly, the conclusion is contradicted by narration. I'm not arguing how powerful Sadow is by virtue of feats, I never said Kun didn't have more demonstrated, on-panel feats, I said the narrator repeatedly establishes Sadow as powerful, in fact, there's even a line referencing his power as titanic compared to the Jedi 5000 years later.



So now you're bending the narrator's word to prove a point? Good job, good luck with that.

It's hardly hyperbole if it's repeated and corroborated with other adjectives and descriptions, now is it? And it works both ways, your precious Kun suffers from this same overblown hyperbole.



Unfounded, unsubstantiated, unproven, worthless. Like most of your points. Next.

Illustrious made the second half of his post after mine and it might confuse someone, so I am reposting mine at the botton.

No, my problem is that you fail to prove how Kun is more powerful than Sadow, even though you claim that to be the case, when even the modifiers are less grandiose.



How about "titanic" and just plain old "awesome power."

Again, you don't even have the comics. It's easy to make bogus claims and attempt to refute them with irrelevent sources.



Again going back to the whole Yoda is blue thing. Semantics, my friend.



Would you prefer me to pull out more modifiers and adjectives? Believe me, the way the author narrates the Ancient Golden Age Sith, there is no shortage. We can be here all day. But you haven't offered any substantiation besides more assumptions. You haven't corrected ANY of logical fallacy I have pointed out, except attempt to glaze over it with more quotes from an irrelevent source (one that only mentions Sadow).

Originally posted by IKC
Oh. And Sidious wins, easily.

At least you got one things right.

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract:

IKC:

Originally posted by IKC
You're completely off-base. If I had a book about Mein Kampf that contradicts specific things written in Mein Kampf, which one is true?

Mein Kampf. It's called primary sources. They cannot be contradicted by reference works or secondary sources unless they use another primary source. Go to any academic and claim otherwise and they'll laugh in your face.

Primary sources can be better, but they aren't always. I have the advantage as my source has the Lucasbooks seal on the back while the DLOTS comics do not. That alone makes the more credible.

It's also to bad that my source is also a primary source as the same person who wrote DLOTS wrote The New Essentail Guide to Chronolgy.

Originally posted by IKC
Excuse me, how about some proof? That's an assumption, and a poor one at that. The supernova didn't start instantly regardless, as shown in TSW, so because he was at maximum speed he had plenty of time to escape.

Yes, we do. Supernova explode at roughly 1/8 the speed of light. An X-wing, a much faster craft, has a top speed of 26,460 meters per second. The speed of light is ~300,000 meters per second. 300,000/8=37,500

A much faster craft than Naga's ship moves slower than the speed of a supernova.

I know you are going to say, "but it takes a minute or two for the star to explode". Not in this case. When Naga destroys the star in DLOTS, there is no delay, just instant boom.


Originally posted by IKC
Again, proof? All sources contradict you.

No, they don't, as shown above.

Originally posted by IKC
Again, no you don't. But please, don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

Yes, I do. The Official policy states that reference guides are higher level.

Originally posted by IKC
Any specifics on this? Proofs? Why would they test it if they believed such, anyway? They had already split the atom and that hadn't happened.

I know, they 'tested' it. The first time that they split a weapon though, they thought that world would be consumed in the explosion.

Originally posted by IKC
At Vodo's holocron. There is no instance of Aleema ever even touching a holocron. She learned what little she knew directly from Nadd's spirit.

Ignorance.

Sorry, "arrogance" wasn't at you, it was why Aleema just sat there and why Anakin didn't know his arms would get cut off. Don't take everything that could be an attack as one.

Remember the tome/book Satal stole from the Jedi Temple? She had that too. She also had all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually.

Originally posted by IKC
What, according to you? Arbitrary and ridiculous. "Exar Kun's Light Battle Armor" my eye.

The Lucas canon policy states that all things in games that do not directly contradict with higher levels of canon are indeed canon. There are situations when I hate the canon policy too, get over it.

Originally posted by IKC
Indeed? How many times must I state that civilians were butchered by Sith forces whenever they got the chance? The Cron cluster was destroyed because Exar Kun wanted the treasures of Ossus. That isn't war, that is terrorism.

I'm not saying there was no terrorism, but any attack with the intent of damaging an enemies military for war purposes is not terrorism, but war, instead.

Originally posted by IKC
According to who? I've already answered this. It's ridiculous to assert that a reference book can contradict a primary source and be correct.

According to the Lucas canon policy.

Originally posted by IKC
No, the jedi were the ground and air commanders of each battle. Only Palpatine truly controlled the army and decided when and where it would fight. It's the difference between tactical and strategic leadership. It was the Republic's army, not the Jedi's.

Palpatine had the final word, but effectively and for all practicality, it was the Jedi's Army.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh, I guess Exar didn't strike down Vodo Siosk Baas or Odun-Urr by himself. I must have been hallucinating when I read the comics that you don't own. Maybe the comics themselves don't exist!

Sure, why not. Exar killing Vodo or Odan was not a battle, it was a duel. There were no armies involved.

Originally posted by IKC
Can you name which Krath used the force? No, other than Satal and Aleema, you can't. They were the only important Krath, period.

Now we're getting somewhere. It is true that Aleema and Satal were the only Krath important enough to be named, but the same it true with 95% of the Jedi.

Originally posted by IKC
Because Vodo had access to a Sith holocron and recorded his own using it. Again, no we don't know that a supernova explodes faster than a ship can move. None of the Republic ships survived Sadow's initial strike to be vaporized by the supernova.

Yes, we do. Supernova explode at roughly 1/8 the speed of light. An X-wing, a much faster craft, has a top speed of 26,460 meters per second. The speed of light is ~300,000 meters per second. 300,000/8=37,500

A much faster craft than Naga's ship moves slower than the speed of a supernova.

I know you are going to say, "but it takes a minute or two for the star to explode". Not in this case. When Naga destroys the star in DLOTS, there is no delay, just instant boom.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh, okay. I guess Star Wars is wrong, because logic and science would say the Force doesn't exist. Because we all know science can never be wrong.

In our universe, the force doesn't exist. In the SW universe, it does. That is a bad analogy. Until something solidly disproves physics in SW, they exist.

Originally posted by IKC
Alright everyone, calm down! Lord Glentract has solved everything for us!

You're welcome.

I'd like to point out that the New Essential Guide has a "Darth Kreia" in there somewhere, which was later noted to be incorrect.

The reason that it says that though is to provide readers with a distinction between Atris Taya and Kreia Traya. It's one of those things that is technically incorrect, but makes it more practical to read.

Was it? I didn't realize it had both entries.

Yeah, it does. pg. 24 "Darth Sion, Darth Kreia, Darth Traya, and Darth Nihilus were amoung the many to take advantage of the Republic's inability to safeguard it's holdings after the Second Sith War.

Illustrious:

I read over your response and the tedium of responding to every point is not worth it until you can answer my challenge.

Show me where my arguments are contradicted by The Golden Age of the Sith or The Fall of the Sith Empire. I asked this before and you didn't offer a scrap of evidence.

The reason I can argue on them is because I read a fairly detailed summary about them when I couldn't find either at my local bookstores.

Answer my challenge and then we'll continue. Otherwise, you're simply debating without evidence.

Glentract:



Oh, so the comics themselves, which created the stories, aren't credible sources on these stories? Right. That's logical.

(Oh, by the way, Dark Lords of the Sith has that precious seal you think to be so important.)



No there isn't. He wrenched the core just as Aleema did. Otherwise he would have killed himself along with the Republic craft. He escaped the supernova because it took some time for it to begin. That's all. There is no indication whatsoever that Sadow held back the explosive power of a star. He ran, and for good reason.



Please, show me this ethereal "official policy." And I'll laugh again when you claim that reference books summarizing a story are more accurate than the book they reference.



She did not have "all the things that King Ommin had," for one, because most of it was either in Nadd's tomb on Dxun or with the Jedi (Ulic finds Freedon's amulet and Nadd speaks to him).

The Ketos did have a book of sith spells from Coruscant, yes. And they were unable to use it until Nadd introduced them to the ways of the Sith. (It reads that they stole the book from the Galactic Museum, by the way, not the Jedi Temple.) Only Satal and Aleema were instructed by Nadd, the other Krath were irrelevant.



Your original point was about Krath battle armor. Even if it is canon, which I believe it isn't, your point is still incorrect. The Krath was formed from the sons and daughters of the Tetan Royalty. They were the leaders, and they had the military in their pocket. Just because the armor was named for them doesn't mean that they were an army of Dark Side warriors. Indeed, TOTJ shows that they certainly were not.



It was more piracy than war, Glentract. You can't say that raiding dozens of helpless space stations and shipyards represents a campaign to conquer the galaxy. The Sith neither captured nor held any territories in the entire conflict. At the end, they tried with the Mandalorian attack on Onderon, and failed miserably.



Again, that's ridiculous. The clones fought for the Republic, not the Jedi, and it was to the Republic that they answered. The Jedi did not own, did not pay, and did not direct the movements of the Grand Army of the Republic.



First, the fight with Odan could hardly be called a duel. It was more of an instakill. And my point, if I have to remind you, was that Aleema Keto was a weakling that never won a battle, a fight, or anything else against a Force user. One could argue that she won "battles" of manipulation with Ulic, and that's fine, but that doesn't make her strong in the Force. She isn't.



And? One cannot have battles between unnamed entity X and entity jedi Y, or the like. I've already maintained that Satal and Aleema were the only Krath inducted into the Sith teachings by Freedon Nadd. TOTJ describes their book of Sith spells as requiring that one be a member of the Sith to use it. Ergo, the other Krath were probably, A) not Force sensitive or B) too weak to matter to either Satal or Aleema. Even if they were powerful, they were not inducted into the Sith and couldn't use the spells of the book.



It's not a bad analogy, Glentract. You cannot deny with all the evidence I've given that it is Sadow's weaponry, not the Force user using it, that rips the cores from stars and causes them to go supernova. It's stated repeatedly throughout TOTJ. In no way does it indicate that it is in fact powered by the Force user.

Therefore: Sadow's greatest feat, the destruction of a star, is not due to his force power, but his genius as an inventor.

My other conclusion is that later generations may very well be as strong or stronger than the ancient Sith, because there are no feats that they performed that were not duplicated or even surpassed, sometimes by the same people. These later generations include beings like Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, DE Sidious, NJO Luke, etc.

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract:

IKC:

Originally posted by IKC
Oh, so the comics themselves, which created the stories, aren't credible sources on these stories? Right. That's logical.

(Oh, by the way, Dark Lords of the Sith has that precious seal you think to be so important.)

My point is that stories can be revised. The same guy wrote both series.

And, the DLOTS comics have the Dark Horse Seal, not the LucasBooks Seal.

Originally posted by IKC
No there isn't. He wrenched the core just as Aleema did. Otherwise he would have killed himself along with the Republic craft. He escaped the supernova because it took some time for it to begin. That's all. There is no indication whatsoever that Sadow held back the explosive power of a star. He ran, and for good reason.

It didn't take any time on the order of two minutes. It goes from some guy saying the stars are becoming unstable, to some guy screaming for them to pull up, to a fireball.

There is indication. He could not have fled fast enough to get away. It did not take a significant amount of time either, maybe a few seconds. I don't see any indication that it took several minutes.

Originally posted by IKC
Please, show me this ethereal "official policy." And I'll laugh again when you claim that reference books summarizing a story are more accurate than the book they reference.

Go google it yourself, I don't have the time to go find it for you.

Originally posted by IKC
She did not have "all the things that King Ommin had," for one, because most of it was either in Nadd's tomb on Dxun or with the Jedi (Ulic finds Freedon's amulet and Nadd speaks to him).

The guide says, "Satal Keto and Aleema fled back to the Empress Teta System, bearing a wealth of Sith Artifacts." Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Originally posted by IKC
The Ketos did have a book of sith spells from Coruscant, yes. And they were unable to use it until Nadd introduced them to the ways of the Sith. (It reads that they stole the book from the Galactic Museum, by the way, not the Jedi Temple.) Only Satal and Aleema were instructed by Nadd, the other Krath were irrelevant.

Wait a second. I thought you kept saying there were no other Krath?

The Ketos actually were able to read it when Nadd gave them a Sith Amulet. You are correct, it was a museum, not the Temple(them being able to steal from the Temple did seem rather strange to me).

The statement you have made is like saying, "only Luke was trained by Yoda, making the other new Jedi irrelevent." Not so. There are other methods of teaching that they had and they could have learned from the Ketos themselves.

You are also wrong by saying the Ketos were the only notable Krath because Ulic was a Krath for some time.

Originally posted by IKC
Your original point was about Krath battle armor. Even if it is canon, which I believe it isn't, your point is still incorrect. The Krath was formed from the sons and daughters of the Tetan Royalty. They were the leaders, and they had the military in their pocket. Just because the armor was named for them doesn't mean that they were an army of Dark Side warriors. Indeed, TOTJ shows that they certainly were not.

Much of the system didn't even follow them, there was a revolt. The Krath also had mutiple Temples. Are you going to tell me that they have mutiple Temples for only two people?

Originally posted by IKC
It was more piracy than war, Glentract. You can't say that raiding dozens of helpless space stations and shipyards represents a campaign to conquer the galaxy. The Sith neither captured nor held any territories in the entire conflict. At the end, they tried with the Mandalorian attack on Onderon, and failed miserably.

Shipyards generally aren't helpless. Look at the Bilbringi Shipyards, for example. Thrawn was going to need a significant portion of his fleet to destroy them. Or the Mon Calamari Shipyards. Only the World Devastators were able to cause significant damage to them. Helpless indeed.

Originally posted by IKC
Again, that's ridiculous. The clones fought for the Republic, not the Jedi, and it was to the Republic that they answered. The Jedi did not own, did not pay, and did not direct the movements of the Grand Army of the Republic.

The Jedi bought the Army. It was created by a Jedi. Sidious, like the US President, had/has ultimate control, but effectively the Generals and Commanders control it. The Jedi were those people.

Originally posted by IKC
First, the fight with Odan could hardly be called a duel. It was more of an instakill. And my point, if I have to remind you, was that Aleema Keto was a weakling that never won a battle, a fight, or anything else against a Force user. One could argue that she won "battles" of manipulation with Ulic, and that's fine, but that doesn't make her strong in the Force. She isn't.

If the fight can hardly be called a duel, I have no idea why YOU called it a battle.

My point is that Exar didn't either. You're calling Aleema weak for doing the same thing Exar did. That makes no sense.

Originally posted by IKC
And? One cannot have battles between unnamed entity X and entity jedi Y, or the like. I've already maintained that Satal and Aleema were the only Krath inducted into the Sith teachings by Freedon Nadd. TOTJ describes their book of Sith spells as requiring that one be a member of the Sith to use it. Ergo, the other Krath were probably, A) not Force sensitive or B) too weak to matter to either Satal or Aleema. Even if they were powerful, they were not inducted into the Sith and couldn't use the spells of the book.

There were other things than that one book. Reguardless, any force user could use the techniques in the book, just not read it without an Amulet.

Like I said above, just because the other Krath weren't trained by Nadd doesn't automatically make them weak.

Originally posted by IKC
It's not a bad analogy, Glentract. You cannot deny with all the evidence I've given that it is Sadow's weaponry, not the Force user using it, that rips the cores from stars and causes them to go supernova. It's stated repeatedly throughout TOTJ. In no way does it indicate that it is in fact powered by the Force user.

Therefore: Sadow's greatest feat, the destruction of a star, is not due to his force power, but his genius as an inventor.

I've has proven that there is no way that the ship could have done it.

I am still waiting for my answer to the follwing:

The reason you have failed to show how the ship did that is because it is impossible. Completely impossible.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was stated as the most powerful ship ever(this was as of the moment it was first built.)

The mass of a star is 198,892,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Yes, that is a lot.

The core comprises ~60% of the suns mass. That is 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Still, that is a lot.

To move that at a rate of 1 meter per-second would require 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of energy.

The energy out put of an entire star is LESS than that(remember that the energy output of one star is that maximum for any ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer).

Incase you are wondering what the energy output of a star(the sun) is, here you go, 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 30.9158549

So, even if the star was moved at a measily one meter persecond, it would require the power of thirty Imperial Star Destroyers to move it. Since NO ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer was able to harness the power of even a single star, it is impossible for any ship prior to the launch of the Executor to produce that energy on it's own.

Remeber that the following equations use a speed of only one meter per second to as the rate that the star was moving at. The true number is thousands of times higher than that, as it was moving faster than the Republic ships could get away at.

In short, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for the ship to have been the driving factor in moving that star. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE! NO POSSIBLE JUSTIFICATION AT ALL!

Originally posted by IKC
My other conclusion is that later generations may very well be as strong or stronger than the ancient Sith, because there are no feats that they performed that were not duplicated or even surpassed, sometimes by the same people. These later generations include beings like Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, DE Sidious, NJO Luke, etc.

Specify.

Stories are revised when the story is re-released. The story has not been re-released. Ergo, the story is not "revised" and the reference book is incorrect when it contradicts the source.



Glentract, I'm staring at the back of the Dark Lords of the Sith book right now. The Lucas Books seal is screaming at me. It's there, trust me. It may not be on back of each individual comic book that was first released, but it is on the back of the compiled edition.



Because that's Sadow's attack, Glentract, not the supernova, identical to when Aleema attacked the Jedi in the Cron cluster (her only victory against force users, I found one!). They didn't have time either, because that was the core-throwing, not the supernova. Those are the two stages to the weapon's use.



I don't need to see it. Your assertion is that reference works (think Cliff's Notes) contradict primary sources (think the literature on which the notes are based) and that the reference works are correct when they do. It's a ridiculous assertion, Glentract.



So it does to me, that you're using hyperbole. "A wealth of Sith artifacts" does not equal "all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually."



Incorrect, because DLOTS states explicitly that only one inducted into the Sith can use the spells of the book. There is no instance in any part of TOTJ that these other, minor Krath use Sith magic. Therefore, they are unimportant, even more so because they aren't named.



Qel-Droma was never a Krath. Ulic was a Jedi, then fell to the dark side partly due to Sith poison given to him by Satal Keto, and became a dark jedi. He then became a Sith Lord when Exar Kun confronted him and the unnamed Dark Lord's spirit proclaimed them both to be Lords of the Sith.



Excuse me, but show me where the Krath ever had temples. I don't accept that statement. It's nowhere in either comic series.

By the way, they crushed the revolts in the Tetan systems with overwhelming force, given how the military was in their pocket and they had Aleema's illusions assisting them. It even shows the battle at Koros Major, the last planet to hold out against the Krath coup.



Yes, let's compare a time where there were two governments warring for control of the galaxy to a time where the Republic hadn't been challenged by a major power for a thousand years. Good comparison, Glentract.

The Sith War describes the attack on the shipyards of Foerost, said to be "one of the oldest and successful large-scale orbital construction sites," which produced "a steady stream of advanced warships for the fleet of the Galactic Republic."

One which you would think would be well defended, no? But it wasn't, Glentract. It was captured easily by the combined Tetan and Mandalorian fighters in a fight that, the comic indicates, lasted only minutes. There was no fleet defending it.



Really? You actually think Sifo Dyas ordered its construction? Let me ask you something, with whose money did the Jedi "buy" the army, if your assertion is correct? Jedi have nothing but what the Republic grants them. The Republic bought the army, it was the Grand Army of the Republic. The Republic controlled its movements, paid for its equipment and supplies, and decided when and where it was to be used. The Jedi did not. The Jedi were tactical commanders, not strategic.

What you're saying is akin to suggesting that the generals and admirals of the US military can declare war, or redeploy troops. That's not the case at all.



Pardon me, but when did Exar Kun ever lose a battle, a fight, or anything of the sort to another living force user? Was Exar Kun ever stopped in his tracks by the likes of Nomi Sunrider? No. On the contrary, he treated her and the rest of the Jedi on her level as not being important enough to dirty his hands with. He virtually ignored them all. Even when Sylvar, the mate of Crado, repeatedly confronted him, he paid little heed to her, eventually sending a Massassi to slap her away on Ossus (she was armed with a lightsaber).

He did lost twice in his lifetime. Once as a padawan against Vodo, and again against the combined might of all the Jedi in the galaxy. Please tell me how he and Aleema are comparable at all.



That's not entirely accurate. Exar Kun was able to speak and understand the Sith tongue before he wore Sadow's amulet. And the description of the book in DLOTS reads: "A source of long-forgotten power, the book can only be used by a Sith follower." Read: only. Not anyone can just pick it up and, provided they know ancient Sith, use it.



Yes it does, combined with the fact that they never appear again in TOTJ and are never shown using Sith magic. They're never even mentioned again. They're weak and irrelevant to the story.



I've already answered it, Glentract. Your proofs regarding a star destroyer are irrelevant. It is obvious that Sadow's ship was more powerful than a Star Destroyer, because it performed a feat that a Star Destroyer could never do. You don't seem to understand that the ship doesn't use conventional energy. Its weapon is powered by Sith magic (not its user's). I'll direct you to the quotes above by Aleema Keto and Exar Kun.



Specify what? The feats? Naga's feats, both of star-ripping and illusions, are replicated perfectly by Aleema Keto, a relative weakling by all respects. Kun's feats are already well known, freezing the entire Senate among the more impressive. I've not read NJO but I understand that Luke performs feats on this level. DE Sidious can conjure force storms and teleport someone around the galaxy. Do I have to go on? You know all of this.

I have to intercede here, for a moment to make a point.

Glentract, you're using Earth-related physics as a large portion of your argument. But I am inclined to believe IKC here. Our physics, and its laws, are not necessarily followed completely by the Star Wars universe. IKC is right. The Force, speeders, and fighters are some of the many things that defy physics. You can't necessarily use the knowledge of physics that we have, and expect them to always be valid.

Just thought I'd make that clear.

Continue.

Damn IKC, I havent found the time to read all this(Im lazy...) but from the looks of it you know how to debate.

Originally posted by Escape81
I have to intercede here, for a moment to make a point.

Glentract, you're using Earth-related physics as a large portion of your argument. But I am inclined to believe IKC here. Our physics, and its laws, are not necessarily followed completely by the Star Wars universe. IKC is right. The Force, speeders, and fighters are some of the many things that defy physics. You can't necessarily use the knowledge of physics that we have, and expect them to always be valid.

Just thought I'd make that clear.

Continue.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Escape81
I have to intercede here, for a moment to make a point.

Glentract, you're using Earth-related physics as a large portion of your argument. But I am inclined to believe IKC here. Our physics, and its laws, are not necessarily followed completely by the Star Wars universe. IKC is right. The Force, speeders, and fighters are some of the many things that defy physics. You can't necessarily use the knowledge of physics that we have, and expect them to always be valid.

Just thought I'd make that clear.

Continue.

Escape, there is no way you can abandon physics without abandoning logic. It's one of the fundamental branches of human knowledge.

Also note that physics don't just apply to Earth. They apply to all of the universe, which Star Wars is a part of. Remember, Star Wars is supposed to have taken place in our own universe a long time ago, in a distant galaxy.

Also, please name on instance when physics has been violated in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Escape, there is no way you can abandon physics without abandoning logic. It's one of the fundamental branches of human knowledge.

Also note that physics don't just apply to Earth. They apply to all of the universe, which Star Wars is a part of. Remember, Star Wars is supposed to have taken place in our own universe a long time ago, in a distant galaxy.

Also, please name on instance when physics has been violated in Star Wars.

1.Yes in our world, but our knowledge of physics cant be accurately applied to star wars(A place where people can shoot lightning from their fingertips)

2.What?...Yeah your right Glentract our universe and the SWU are one and the same, nevermind the SWU purposely defys logical thinking to give it a fantasy epic feel...Im sure we will learn how to use the force in time.

3.To name 1 of 1000 instances, Luke can fly.

Originally posted by IKC
Illustrious:

I read over your response and the tedium of responding to every point is not worth it until you can answer my challenge.

Show me where my arguments are contradicted by The Golden Age of the Sith or The Fall of the Sith Empire. I asked this before and you didn't offer a scrap of evidence.

The reason I can argue on them is because I read a fairly detailed summary about them when I couldn't find either at my local bookstores.

Answer my challenge and then we'll continue. Otherwise, you're simply debating without evidence.

No, I didn't bring evidence to the contrary, I attacked your faulty logic. And so far, you have done NOTHING to even attempt to indicate your logic is even remotely credible. Until you establish to me you can even debate, why should I waste my time? I haven't seen you make a coherent point or concede one during our entire dicussion.

You are effectively saying this:

"Aleema Keto did the same thing Naga Sadow did, therefore he's weaker than we believed."

Really? How does the postulate support the conclusion? It doesn't. Faulty Logic. By your own account, if Exar went on that ship, the same result would have happened. So is Exar weaker because Aleema can do the same thing? Hardly. The issue is that all you did was move Sadow back into the "unknown quantity" pile. And guess what? That's where he, and the rest of the Ancient Sith, were to begin with!

Good job, you can move around in circles. Wooh, such skillful and masterful debating.

Then your next point:

"Naga Sadow is overrated, he's not "godlike" despite the comics (that I have not read) say this, I believe Kun is greater than him.

Again, awesome logic. (Sarcasm if you couldn't tell.)

So you're effectively telling me that some Kun fanboy who has read Kun's comics will be far more knowledgable about it then NAGA SADOW'S comics talking about... Naga Sadow.

You're also saying we should believe you in saying Sadow is overrated when you assume on an unknown, instead of believing the author when he makes many, many grandiose assessments of Sadow's power. What next? You're going to develop a Supershadow complex and believe yourself more important than Lucas? Please. You have to substantiate this claim, not try to prove an assumption with... more assumptions.

"Exar Kun did stuff no one else did, even though he GAINED THE KNOWLEDGE FROM THE ANCIENT SITH!"

Oh right. So because we did not see an Ancient Sith Lord walk into a room and freeze a bunch of non-force-sensitives, we are to assume Exar is the only individual that can, right?

Yes, because absence of proof is definitely proof of absence (again a false assumption for those slow witted individuals).

So you mean that Kun, who learned these ancient techniques from the remnants of the Ancient Sith has techniques they don't have? So if I learn Greek, I know more Greek than Greek linguists? That's what you're trying to assert, and it doesn't add up. Substantiate, or don't bother.

"Naga Sadow's power comes from his weapons, not his person!"

Where does it say this? All you proved was that he has powerful weapons. Where can you prove he was a weakling? Again, you're assuming off an unknown -- an unknown, need I remind you again, that the narrator repeatedly holds in very high regard.

Please, you're done. Cooked. Stick a fork in you. Up the river without a paddle. Floating down piss creek. Staring down the end of a rifle. Hopeless. Lost. You've "substantiated" bad logic with more bad logic, and when I point it out, you run behind "zOMG I HAVE IRRELEVENT SOURCE MATERIAL!!!11!"

Like I said, start debating, or STFU. You're starting to remind me of ER, where's that guy again?

ER left because Revan isn't more powerful than Ragnos and he couldn't take it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.Yes in our world, but our knowledge of physics cant be accurately applied to star wars(A place where people can shoot lightning from their fingertips)

2.What?...Yeah your right Glentract our universe and the SWU are one and the same, nevermind the SWU purposely defys logical thinking to give it a fantasy epic feel...Im sure we will learn how to use the force in time.

3.To name 1 of 1000 instances, Luke can fly.

I suggest you go pick up a copy of The Science of Star Wars. It will answer you questions quite well.

Anyway,

1. Zero-Point Energy. It's the energy field that exist everywhere. The Force could very well be this same thing(I'm not saying that I believe the Force is real, but that is could scientifically exist).

2. Zero-Point Energy, once again. That is all they are doind, calling on an energy field that exist everywhere in the universe.

3. Luke is doing it by calling upon the energy located in the Zero-Point energy field to levitate himself.

Illustrious, arguments are not made and won using solely debating skill. Until you can bring evidence that actually refutes me, then my points stand.



If Exar went on the ship and performed the same feat, the same result would have happened, which is that our assumptions of Naga Sadow's force power, and that of the rest of the ancient Sith, would have dropped, because that is the most impressive feat that the Ancient Sith have. But because Aleema Keto did it, my impression of their power dropped even further, because Aleema Keto is nowhere near the level of Exar Kun, who has performed feats that have been unmatched by anyone. Others I have mentioned, like DE Sidious and NJO Luke, have performed similar displays of force power. This, in my opinion, places them at least equal with the ancient Sith.



I seem to be running rings around you in the evidence department, Illustrious, since you refuse to enlighten us with anything besides hyperbolic semiquotations from the narrator. All you seem to do is call me names, which isn't a sign of masterful debating skill.



Grandiose statements that are unsubstantiated by the story and Sadow's actions. In other words, evidence. Basically, the author is saying "zOMG HE'S POWERFUL" without giving us any clues as to why. Therefore, by showing that the feats that are shown in Golden Age and Fall of the Sith Empire were later replicated without difficulty, our opinions of their power that are based on real evidence fall back to earth, where they should have been in the first place.



Kun may well be the only one that could perform such a feat on the level that he did. He had to freeze many thousands or tens of thousands of senators, not to mention their guards. To argue that ancient Sith Lord X could do the very same thing is to argue out of ignorance, because we don't know. Some evidence, however, points to the contrary, as they could have merely performed this act on the Republic fleets and won many battles that way.

Kun, because he had a vast accumulation of knowledge from many sources, may have had a greater variety of techniques than certain Ancient Sith. As an analogy, take someone who spends ten years traveling around the United States, for example, learning all that he can from each region as quickly as he can before moving on. In comparison, we have someone who has lived in a single area all of his life, say Florida. The one who has lived in Florida all his life is going to know a good deal more about it than the traveler, but he will have less general knowledge of the country than the traveler and less knowledge about all the other regions.

This analogy is only inaccurate inasmuch as the Ancient Sith guarded their secrets with lethal force while they were alive, and some even after death. Therefore, it would have been even harder to learn from fellow Sith during the Golden Age unless you were fortunate enough to be an apprentice.



Naga Sadow is not a weakling, Illustrious, but he's not as powerful as you make him out to be. He was not a demi-god, and could have been challenged and beaten by a handful of Force users that came after him.

Illustrious, if your only evidence is that the author repeatedly makes overblown references to their power, then you're not going to win this. Give me more.

Originally posted by IKC
Stories are revised when the story is re-released. The story has not been re-released. Ergo, the story is not "revised" and the reference book is incorrect when it contradicts the source.

It is revised when it is re-written by the same author. If they like how it turned out before, then they wouldn't change it. The stories, as they are told in the reference guides are a primary source and a more recent source, making them better to go by.

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract, I'm staring at the back of the Dark Lords of the Sith book right now. The Lucas Books seal is screaming at me. It's there, trust me. It may not be on back of each individual comic book that was first released, but it is on the back of the compiled edition.

Whatever you say.

Originally posted by IKC
Because that's Sadow's attack, Glentract, not the supernova, identical to when Aleema attacked the Jedi in the Cron cluster (her only victory against force users, I found one!). They didn't have time either, because that was the core-throwing, not the supernova. Those are the two stages to the weapon's use.

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here. In your next post could you please expand upon this.

From what I can tell though, you're saying that they did the same thing. They may have, but consider it like this, Aleema's took a long time to detonate. Naga's has never displayed such a thing. It happened almost instantaneously. There was at most a ten second delay. This is not enough time for Naga to have escaped. Also note that the star begins going supernova as soon as Naga begins the process.

Originally posted by IKC
I don't need to see it. Your assertion is that reference works (think Cliff's Notes) contradict primary sources (think the literature on which the notes are based) and that the reference works are correct when they do. It's a ridiculous assertion, Glentract.

Both are equal sources since they are authored by the same person. Remember that the comics

Originally posted by IKC
So it does to me, that you're using hyperbole. "A wealth of Sith artifacts" does not equal "all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually."

I did use a hyperbole, but the quote that she had a wealth of Sith Artifacts in unchanged by me in anyway. No hyperbole present.

Originally posted by IKC
Incorrect, because DLOTS states explicitly that only one inducted into the Sith can use the spells of the book. There is no instance in any part of TOTJ that these other, minor Krath use Sith magic. Therefore, they are unimportant, even more so because they aren't named.

Just like the 9,900 of the PT Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars but never recieved a name? Or how about 99% of the Mandalorians that fought in the Great Sith War. They aren't named, so they don't exist. Oh yes, and out of all of the trillions of Yuuzhan Vong, only fifty or so have names, so the rest never accomplished anything and are completely powerless.

It's bad logic on your part. Lack of a name does not mean that a character did not do anything important or that the person was not powerful.

Also, in the new Essential Guide to Chronology, it says, "Satal, Aleema, and their friends had dabbled into Sith Magic,amusing themselves with Artifacts recovered by the Jedi Odan-Urr during the Great Hyperspace War a thousand years earlier." No longer can you deny that there were other Krath who practiced Sith Magic.

Added to that, starwars.com states(under Ulic's profile incase you want to personally check), "Satal Keto and his cousin Aleema would go on to forge the Krath, a secret society of social elites in the Empress Teta system, who dabbled with the dark side and Sith magic."

That says that there were mutiple Krath who used the Force.



Originally posted by IKC
Qel-Droma was never a Krath. Ulic was a Jedi, then fell to the dark side partly due to Sith poison given to him by Satal Keto, and became a dark jedi. He then became a Sith Lord when Exar Kun confronted him and the unnamed Dark Lord's spirit proclaimed them both to be Lords of the Sith.

Ulic was a Krath infact. The Essential Guide to Characters says, "He(Ulic) served alongside the Sith Lord, Exar Kun, but commanded his own Krath sects."

Added to that, The New Essential Guide To Chronology states, "Instead, Ulic killed Keto in a great duel, and then took his place alongside Aleema as the new ruler of the Krath."

Ulic was both a Krath and a Sith.

Originally posted by IKC
Excuse me, but show me where the Krath ever had temples. I don't accept that statement. It's nowhere in either comic series.

The New Essential Guide to Chronology states it. pg. 17, I think. It may be on page 18 or 19.

Originally posted by IKC
By the way, they crushed the revolts in the Tetan systems with overwhelming force, given how the military was in their pocket and they had Aleema's illusions assisting them. It even shows the battle at Koros Major, the last planet to hold out against the Krath coup.

As seen on mutiple occasions, civilians can do a GREAT job at defeating the Army. Look at the Sixth Battle of Coruscant. The unarmed civilain Shamed Ones did more damage to the Yuuzhan Vong Army than did the Republic strike teams. Same thing aboard the Seed Ship.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, let's compare a time where there were two governments warring for control of the galaxy to a time where the Republic hadn't been challenged by a major power for a thousand years. Good comparison, Glentract.

Haha. So you are saying that they INCREASED protection of there planets when there was no longer a threat? You logic is BACKWARDS. I hope that was a typo, becuase that is easily one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on KMC.

Originally posted by IKC
The Sith War describes the attack on the shipyards of Foerost, said to be "one of the oldest and successful large-scale orbital construction sites," which produced "a steady stream of advanced warships for the fleet of the Galactic Republic."

One which you would think would be well defended, no? But it wasn't, Glentract. It was captured easily by the combined Tetan and Mandalorian fighters in a fight that, the comic indicates, lasted only minutes. There was no fleet defending it.

Does it say that the battle only took minutes or are you infering that from the comics? Remember that fighters are extremely capable. 6 squadrons can regularly take down a Star Destroyer.

Originally posted by IKC
Really? You actually think Sifo Dyas ordered its construction? Let me ask you something, with whose money did the Jedi "buy" the army, if your assertion is correct? Jedi have nothing but what the Republic grants them. The Republic bought the army, it was the Grand Army of the Republic. The Republic controlled its movements, paid for its equipment and supplies, and decided when and where it was to be used. The Jedi did not. The Jedi were tactical commanders, not strategic.

No, Yoda was the Grand General, Supreme Commander of the Republic Army. He created the Republic's War strategy. I repeat, a JEDI desided how the Clones would fight the war.

Now, Sifo did it with money that Count Dooku gave him. Count Dooku was extremely wealthy, as he was the Count of Serreno.

Originally posted by IKC
What you're saying is akin to suggesting that the generals and admirals of the US military can declare war, or redeploy troops. That's not the case at all.



Originally posted by IKC
Pardon me, but when did Exar Kun ever lose a battle, a fight, or anything of the sort to another living force user? Was Exar Kun ever stopped in his tracks by the likes of Nomi Sunrider? No. On the contrary, he treated her and the rest of the Jedi on her level as not being important enough to dirty his hands with. He virtually ignored them all. Even when Sylvar, the mate of Crado, repeatedly confronted him, he paid little heed to her, eventually sending a Massassi to slap her away on Ossus (she was armed with a lightsaber).

Exar lost at Yavin. The only battle he ever fought in, he lost. At least Aleema won one.

And, Ulic went toe to toe with Kun. Ulic was stripped of his power by Nomi. Someone just as powerful as Kun was defeated by Nomi.

Originally posted by IKC
He did lost twice in his lifetime. Once as a padawan against Vodo, and again against the combined might of all the Jedi in the galaxy. Please tell me how he and Aleema are comparable at all.

He lost twice at Yavin, second time to a bunch of padawans. He was also at Nadd's mercy for a long time.

Kun's got about a 50/50 ratio of winning. Han Solo does better then him.

Originally posted by IKC
That's not entirely accurate. Exar Kun was able to speak and understand the Sith tongue before he wore Sadow's amulet. And the description of the book in DLOTS reads: "A source of long-forgotten power, the book can only be used by a Sith follower." Read: only. Not anyone can just pick it up and, provided they know ancient Sith, use it.

The Amulet allowed non-Sith to read it. It is stated in the Essential Guides. Nadd gave it to them. Without it, they couldn't read it.

How did Exar know Sith?

Originally posted by IKC
Yes it does, combined with the fact that they never appear again in TOTJ and are never shown using Sith magic. They're never even mentioned again. They're weak and irrelevant to the story.

Just like the 9,900 of the PT Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars but never recieved a name? Or how about 99% of the Mandalorians that fought in the Great Sith War. They aren't named, so they don't exist. Oh yes, and out of all of the trillions of Yuuzhan Vong, only fifty or so have names, so the rest never accomplished anything and are completely powerless.

It's bad logic on your part. Lack of a name does not mean that a character did not do anything important or that the person was not powerful.

Originally posted by IKC
I've already answered it, Glentract. Your proofs regarding a star destroyer are irrelevant. It is obvious that Sadow's ship was more powerful than a Star Destroyer, because it performed a feat that a Star Destroyer could never do. You don't seem to understand that the ship doesn't use conventional energy. Its weapon is powered by Sith magic (not its user's). I'll direct you to the quotes above by Aleema Keto and Exar Kun.

You have not proved that the power came from the ship. You believe that it did, but you have not proved it. I have given unrevokable evidence to the contrary. If you cannont prove otherwise, shut it.

Originally posted by IKC
Specify what? The feats? Naga's feats, both of star-ripping and illusions, are replicated perfectly by Aleema Keto, a relative weakling by all respects. Kun's feats are already well known, freezing the entire Senate among the more impressive. I've not read NJO but I understand that Luke performs feats on this level. DE Sidious can conjure force storms and teleport someone around the galaxy. Do I have to go on? You know all of this.

Luke controlled a black hole, but was EXTREMELY drained afterwards. Naga wasn't even sweating, but Luke couldn't even stand for several minutes. Moving someone across the galaxy is far easier than destroying a star. The Millenium Falcon can move people across the galaxy, but it isn't a millionth powerful enough to harm a star.

Freezing the Senate? In no way does that compare to destroying a star. Not in anyway at all.



You have to remember that Exar Kun nearly pissed on himself in fear of the spirit of Marka Ragnos. No way is Kun more powerful than him.

Originally posted by IKC
Illustrious, arguments are not made and won using solely debating skill. Until you can bring evidence that actually refutes me, then my points stand.

Illustrious, if your only evidence is that the author repeatedly makes overblown references to their power, then you're not going to win this. Give me more.

I'm not going to address the other points, but this is crap. Illustrious(and myself) have presented more evidence then you have. Your arguments don't stand as they are outweighed by superior evidence by people who oppose you.

Stop criticizing other people for evidence(and it's worse when people like you do it wrongly) when you fail to create realistic and logical arguments to the contrary.

Second, Naga is the only known person to ever destroy and contain a star. Aleema destroyed one, but was unable to contain it.

I can easily say if your only evidence is a bunch of poor logical statements that don't even hold water, you're not even going to make it past day 1 in any debate. Period.

You still did what I said: you avoided all the points about how your reasoning is not sound, and yet you hide behind the "bring me the evidence."

Uh, heard of burden of proof? You're attempting to assume off an unknown. I have the narrator telling me explicitly. Not trusting the narrator's word is like arguing Yoda is purple with some beige tints. It's not going very well for you.

IKC, a few points....

DE Sidious? NJO Luke? Comparable?

You DO realize that DE Sidious was wearing Sadow's amulet? And on top of that had a kaiburr crystal?

NJO Luke is fortified with a kaiburr crystal as well, and possibly something else that's eluding me at this moment.

So both examples you have of "comparable" Force users were artificially augmented. On top of that, they are the rare exception, not the norm. I fail to see how you could come to the conclusion that modern force users are equivalent to Kun or even the ancient Sith in this regard.

And let's not forget Ludo Kressh- he was on par with Naga Sadow for the title, but he didn't display many force feats.

Glentract:



It is not revised in a reference book, Glentract. If you keep going down this road that "zOMG THE REFERENCE BOOK IS BETTER THAN THE PRIMARY SOURCE" I'm going to start ignoring you. If it were revised, TOTJ would have been re-released.



Corrected.



Glentract, no they aren't. DLOTS itself was scripted by two people, by the way. The primary source trumps reference books that reference the primary source, period.



Glentract, you at first wrote that she had "all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually." Don't even try to claim that you didn't. That is what is called hyperbole.



In comparison to the unnamed leaders of the Krath? They accomplished more, far more, than those leaders did. The only threats that came from the Krath were from Aleema and Satal Keto and the army they commanded. That's it. None of the others had an inkling of importance or power to them.



In no way does the primary source have any of the other Krath actually performing magic of any sort. Ergo, the other Krath either A) couldn't or B) couldn't perform at the level of either Satal or Aleema.



Yes.. because starwars.com is never wrong or inaccurate, especially about obscure subjects, right? The primary source reads that they dabbled in "primitive magic." It, two boxes later, reads that Satal and Aleema, no other Krath, stumbled upon Sith secrets. It is true that Satal and Aleema dealt with the Sith and the Dark Side, that doesn't mean that the unimportant others did.



Oh, I see. So because you command a group you become one of them?

I guess the Jedi then were all clones. Or perhaps Nute Gunray was a battle droid? Maybe Lord Sidious was both a clone and a battle droid. Good logic there, Glentract.



And has no indication of any sort in the primary source material. To say that they did is ridiculous anyway, they were a secret society of a handful of aristocrats, dominated by Aleema and Keto, that commanded an army. They did not go out and train others like them in magic or the dark side.



No, Glentract, I was laughing at you. Shipyards were well defended during the Galactic Civil War. They were not so during The Sith War. Good reading skills.



And they did not do a "great" job of defeating the army that the Krath controlled, Glentract. Read the comics. The Krath rule by the time we get to the end of DLOTS is unquestioned throughout the Empress Teta System.

Your examples are irrelevant.



Too bad the Foerost shipyards didn't have fighter squadrons or defending capital ships of any sort. The most they had was turrets, and the Mandalorian and Tetan soldiers took care of them quickly, boarded the station, and seized the foremen. They then took the activation codes for the capital ships that were constructed there. Then they butchered the crew.



Tactically he did, but he did not decide where and with what, Glentract. The Republic Senate, represented by Palpatine, did. If what you said was true then Yoda could merely have ended the Clone War at any time.



Lost? Excuse me Glentract, but he didn't even decide to fight. In case you didn't know because you're ignorant and haven't read the comics, he faced all of the Jedi in the galaxy in orbit. He was not so foolish as to believe he could stand against such a force, so he performed the ritual to unleash his spirit.

And I'll run down the list: He beat Vodo, Grandmaster of the Jedi, twice, the second time killing him. He destroyed the spirit of Freedon Nadd after finally accepting the Dark Side. He stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma (in lightsaber combat) while Kun himself was nowhere near the height of his power. He destroyed Odan-Urr with a wave of his hand. He converted twenty Jedi knights with a sith holocron instantaneously. He thought Sylvar, a former rival of his, so unimportant and beneath him that he sent Massassi to bat her around like a rag doll, which they did. He bested Master Ood in lightsaber combat (Ood had to transform, to enter the next stage of his lifecycle, to stop Kun from getting the treasures he sought). And he survived the most crushing Light Side attack we've ever seen, an attack which set fire to Yavin 4 and scorched the surface of the entire moon.

You're blind if you think those aren't wins.



Your ignorance of the story is astounding, Glentract. Ulic stalemated Kun while Kun was nowhere near the height of his power. And Nomi stripped Ulic of the Force while Ulic was overcome with grief after killing his brother Cay and was not resisting her. Please, don't pull things out of thin air and expect to win.



I already covered his first "loss." The second time, he lost to a dozen force users, two lightsabers, the spirit of Luke Skywalker, and the spirit of Vodo Siosk Baas. This is after four thousand years of solitude on Yavin 4, which most likely wasn't healthy for his sanity.

By your logic, Marka Ragnos is a weakling because he lost to a single newly-knighted Jedi. Good work, Glentract.

Regarding Nadd, he was at Nadd's mercy because of his own refusal to use the Dark Side. But truly, he was only at his mercy once, when Nadd caused the cave-in that crushed his body. After that, he was attacked by dog-like Sith beasts, and Nadd took his lightsaber. Kun had to use the Dark Side to recover it because the Light had abandoned him. The third time he was captured by the Massassi, again because he wouldn't use the Dark Side. He escaped because of his final acceptance of the Dark as his true power, recovered Sadow's amulet, and slaughtered Naga Sadow's monstrosity. Afterward, he destroyed Nadd's spirit.



Incorrect. DLOTS says only one inducted into the Sith can use the book, ergo the Amulet, while they did have it, isn't necessary.

In the chamber of the monstrosity on Yavin IV, it reads, "As the alchemical miscreation squeezes the life out of him, a realization dawns on Exar Kun-- He must let go of the past... forget the pathetic Jedi way... Give in to his true power... the power of rage!"

In the next panel, "Suddenly finding he can speak the Sith tongue, Exar Kun reaches towards the focus of power. -- And the Sith amulet (Sadow's) soars toward its rightful owner!"



Glentract, you're becoming insufferable. I'm going to quote what I quoted previously. Maybe you'll pay attention this time. This is undeniable.













Proof enough? It's the ship, Glentract. Period. Even if none of the other quotes matter, the Narrator spells it out explicitly. You. Lose.



Corrections in parentheses.



Yes it does, when you know as I do that the destruction of the star was caused by a ship and not the user's own Force power.



Oh, Glentract, your ignorance is showing. Neither Exar nor Ulic showed fear of any kind upon the appearance of the unnamed Sith Lord that manifested himself in front of them. His appearance was only enough for them to stop their fighting in time for him to speak the prophecy regarding them and induct Kun as Dark Lord of the Sith.

Pulled that one out of thin air as well, didn't you Glentract? (Please do substitute a ruder phrase).



I'm going to summarize your points, Glentract:

"zOMG THIS REFERENCE BOOK TRUMPS THE SOURCE THAT IT REFERENCES!"

"zOMG STAR DESTROYERS CAN'T DO IT, THAT MEANS NO SHIP CAN!"

Here's Illustrious' point:

"zOMG THE AUTHOR KEEPS SAYING THEY WERE POWERFUL!"

More evidence? Laughable. Superior evidence? Absolutely not.



You keep trying to claim that he contained it when there's no evidence of that at all, and indeed you undermine your own argument because you have to believe that Naga's a god (read above).

Illustrious



You're debating that I have no evidence when I've been waving it in front of your face for the past day and a half. I quoted it again for Glentract, why don't you do a little cumulative review with him?



Hide? I've answered your points, Illustrious. It was obvious to me that you didn't understand what my reasoning was, and I clarified it to no avail. So I challenged you to bring me evidence that contradicts me. Until you do, you will continue to lose this debate.



How is the burden of proof on me when I've already made the case that he was not "godlike," and if he was then so are the handful of other, similarly or more powerful force users that came later. I did this by showing how easily his impressive feats are replicated by those supposedly far weaker than he is, and exactly how his feats are not indicative of his Force power but his genius as an inventor.

The challenge is on you to provide evidence from the vaunted source you can't seem to bear using that proves me wrong.

Originally posted by Ianus
IKC, a few points....

DE Sidious? NJO Luke? Comparable?

You DO realize that DE Sidious was wearing Sadow's amulet? And on top of that had a kaiburr crystal?

NJO Luke is fortified with a kaiburr crystal as well, and possibly something else that's eluding me at this moment.

So both examples you have of "comparable" Force users were artificially augmented. On top of that, they are the rare exception, not the norm. I fail to see how you could come to the conclusion that modern force users are equivalent to Kun or even the ancient Sith in this regard.

And let's not forget Ludo Kressh- he was on par with Naga Sadow for the title, but he didn't display many force feats.

Yes, I realize that all of these people are fortified in their own way. Are you telling me the ancient Sith weren't? Think about this: Sadow was in possession of both amulets that Kun and Sidious later came across and used. If it boosted their power, why didn't it boost his?

It did. Sadow, and the rest of the Sith most likely, were also artificially augmented. To say they weren't is to deny the existence of those amulets and other baubles.

And who is to say the Sith themselves were not the rare exceptions? We can name three Sith Lords from the Golden Age time period: Kressh, Sadow, and Ragnos. That seems fitting to me with other time periods in which there were a handful of extraordinarily powerful individuals.

And given that Ludo Kressh didn't display many force feats, what does that tell you about the real power of the Ancient Sith? It certainly doesn't support Illustrious' vaunted quotes from the narrator, does it?

Yes, I realize that all of these people are fortified in their own way. Are you telling me the ancient Sith weren't? Think about this: Sadow was in possession of both amulets that Kun and Sidious later came across and used. If it boosted their power, why didn't it boost his?

Unfortunately, the problem with this premise is that you need to prove where they use said baubles. I haven't seen one picture of Naga Sadow with an amulet around his neck, much less two. While it is a good point that you're trying to make, it's also not taking into consideration that the ancient Sith also MADE such amulets, baubles, etc. They made things like trinkets and such trinkets made some modern force prodigies almost comparable.


It did. Sadow, and the rest of the Sith most likely, were also artificially augmented. To say they weren't is to deny the existence of those amulets and other baubles.

They very likely were. But to what degree and how much of it was the baubles is totally open. It could be a little or a lot. I do know that ROTS Sidious is nothing impressive in the grand scheme of things but DE Sidious (With a kaiburr crystal and one of Sadow's amulets and a whole wealth of holocrons, etc. plus added training) was leagues above his former self. Unfortunately I don't have the exact writing where it says he acquired the amulet, as that might give us insight into its affect on his tremendous growth.


And who is to say the Sith themselves were not the rare exceptions? We can name three Sith Lords from the Golden Age time period: Kressh, Sadow, and Ragnos. That seems fitting to me with other time periods in which there were a handful of extraordinarily powerful individuals.

Simus, Ragnos, Kressh, and Sadow are all named because they are central to the plot of the story. There are a dozen or more other major Sith lords who make up the top tier of the Sith Empire of the Golden Age.

In that line of thought, can you name all of the members of the Brotherhood of Darkness?


And given that Ludo Kressh didn't display many force feats, what does that tell you about the real power of the Ancient Sith? It certainly doesn't support Illustrious' vaunted quotes from the narrator, does it?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Ludo Kressh, despite his position and equality to Sadow, Ragnos' only worthy successor, played a relatively minor role in the stories. The comics were very very short stories, and it's not surprising we don't have plenty of clear evidence of his powers.

But if you insist on such logic, I suppose Exar Kun cannot use Force lightning because I don't recall seeing it in the comics.

IKC, I'll respond to your other post in a minute, but I noticed you said only three Ancient Sith have names. That's crap.

Simus
Ragnos
Sadow
Kressh
Daragon
Hord
Ajunta
Dathka Graush
ect.

Originally posted by Ianus
Yes, I realize that all of these people are fortified in their own way. Are you telling me the ancient Sith weren't? Think about this: Sadow was in possession of both amulets that Kun and Sidious later came across and used. If it boosted their power, why didn't it boost his?

Unfortunately, the problem with this premise is that you need to prove where they use said baubles. I haven't seen one picture of Naga Sadow with an amulet around his neck, much less two. While it is a good point that you're trying to make, it's also not taking into consideration that the ancient Sith also MADE such amulets, baubles, etc. They made things like trinkets and such trinkets made some modern force prodigies almost comparable.


It did. Sadow, and the rest of the Sith most likely, were also artificially augmented. To say they weren't is to deny the existence of those amulets and other baubles.

They very likely were. But to what degree and how much of it was the baubles is totally open. It could be a little or a lot. I do know that ROTS Sidious is nothing impressive in the grand scheme of things but DE Sidious (With a kaiburr crystal and one of Sadow's amulets and a whole wealth of holocrons, etc. plus added training) was leagues above his former self. Unfortunately I don't have the exact writing where it says he acquired the amulet, as that might give us insight into its affect on his tremendous growth.


And who is to say the Sith themselves were not the rare exceptions? We can name three Sith Lords from the Golden Age time period: Kressh, Sadow, and Ragnos. That seems fitting to me with other time periods in which there were a handful of extraordinarily powerful individuals.

Simus, Ragnos, Kressh, and Sadow are all named because they are central to the plot of the story. There are a dozen or more other major Sith lords who make up the top tier of the Sith Empire of the Golden Age.

In that line of thought, can you name all of the members of the Brotherhood of Darkness?


And given that Ludo Kressh didn't display many force feats, what does that tell you about the real power of the Ancient Sith? It certainly doesn't support Illustrious' vaunted quotes from the narrator, does it?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Ludo Kressh, despite his position and equality to Sadow, Ragnos' only worthy successor, played a relatively minor role in the stories. The comics were very very short stories, and it's not surprising we don't have plenty of clear evidence of his powers.

But if you insist on such logic, I suppose Exar Kun cannot use Force lightning because I don't recall seeing it in the comics.

Naga Sadow is shown very clearly wearing the very same amulet (It was actually more of a shoulder pad chained to a gauntlet) that Exar Kun later acquires in most scenes that I've seen from Golden Age and Fall of the Sith Empire. He's also shown wearing a myriad of other baubles, one of which may be the one later acquired by Sidious. It's not unreasonable to assume that they all combined to boost his power considerably.

And, sorry, I don't know what you refer to when you reference the Brotherhood of Darkness. Enlighten me, please. My point was that those Sith Lords were the most powerful Force users of their time (Odan-Urr, I believe, is the only Jedi of significance in the series. Correct me if I'm wrong.).

Ludo Kressh didn't really play a minor role. He is one of the primary reasons Sadow lost both the war against the Republic so quickly and his position as Dark Lord of the Sith. If we don't have evidence of their powers beyond the feats Sadow displayed, feats I've shown to be less impressive than at first glance, why is it we assume them to be automatically stronger than any other being that came after?

And, to be fair, the spirit of Exar Kun apparently fried Gantoris with force lightning in the Jedi Academy trilogy

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
IKC, I'll respond to your other post in a minute, but I noticed you said only three Ancient Sith have names. That's crap.

Simus
Ragnos
Sadow
Kressh
Daragon
Hord
Ajunta
Dathka Graush
ect.

That's not what I wrote, Glentract. There were actually four in the Golden Age that are named and are part of the plot: Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow, and Simus. I was off by one. Read what I wrote.



By "from the Golden Age time period" I mean specifically the comics.

You still missed Daragon, Sadow's apprentice.

From my recollection, he didn't play a major role in the plot. I could be wrong.

Shows what you know. He was the reason the Sith were effectively removed as a galatic power and ended the Great Hyperspace War.

No, from my recollection it's because Kressh took the throne of Dark Lord from Sadow after Sadow's defeat at the hands of the Republic.

And if you mean Gav Daragon, he was hardly an apprentice as much as he was a hostage. He was forced into the meditation sphere, was he not? Sadow's illusions, if I'm not mistaken, were disrupted by him, but Sadow wasn't going to win anyway.

Actually the war was going great for Sadow until Daragon betrayed him. Daragon was a commander, so I wouldn't really call him a hostage.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I suggest you go pick up a copy of The Science of Star Wars. It will answer you questions quite well.

Anyway,

1. Zero-Point Energy. It's the energy field that exist everywhere. The Force could very well be this same thing(I'm not saying that I believe the Force is real, but that is could scientifically exist).

2. Zero-Point Energy, once again. That is all they are doind, calling on an energy field that exist everywhere in the universe.

3. Luke is doing it by calling upon the energy located in the Zero-Point energy field to levitate himself.

What is this bs Glentract? Passing off this 'zero-point energy' as if it was scientific fact. Go bring me a legitimate source from a respectable physicist stating that using the force would be possible in this universe, 'The science of star wars' doesnt cut it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
What is this bs Glentract? Passing off this 'zero-point energy' as if it was scientific fact. Go bring me a legitimate source from a respectable physicist stating that using the force would be possible in this universe, 'The science of star wars' doesnt cut it.

The author of the book is Jeanne Cavelos. She teachers astronomy at Michigan State University and Cornell University. She also is(as of writing of the author bios) in training to become an Astronaut at the Johnson Space Center. That's very reputable incase you didn't notice.

Next is Dr. Jessica Utts, professor of statistics at the University of California at Davis. "It(the force) sounds like an alternative explanation for the data we've seen, and not one I would rule out.

Dr. Michio Kaku,professor of theoretical phyisics at City University of New York also agreed with it, but the quote is really long so I am not going to type it up.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The author of the book is Jeanne Cavelos. She teachers astronomy at Michigan State University and Cornell University. She also is(as of writing of the author bios) in training to become an Astronaut at the Johnson Space Center. That's very reputable incase you didn't notice.

Next is Dr. Jessica Utts, professor of statistics at the University of California at Davis. "It(the force) sounds like an alternative explanation for the data we've seen, and not one I would rule out.

Dr. Michio Kaku,professor of theoretical phyisics at City University of New York also agreed with it, but the quote is really long so I am not going to type it up.

Alright so atleast a few respectable people agree with it, still its not like this theory is proven or anything. As of right now if some guy suddenly started flying he would be breaking the laws of physics as we know them.

What law says people can't fly?

Insults yet again. Interesting that my opponents find this easier than debating.

I'm no longer going to answer your points when you claim anything from the reference books while I have the primary source in front of me. You're trumped.



Too bad for you, then, that Vodo shows Naga with human-colored skin. Obviously, Naga did not have such. Vodo didn't know what Naga looked like. Vodo's holocron is, therefore, more than a little fuzzy on details.



More insults again. Yes, you certainly did cover your tracks with the second quote.



A bunch of aristocrats are going to join an army in which they fight with swords and other melee weapons? That's probable.



If they did perform Sith magic, Glentract, why weren't they lumped in as a threat with everyone else that did the same? Why weren't they part of the storyline, hm?



I know my source is fool proof because it is the subject matter on which we're debating, Glentract. It tells the entire story in detail. You don't own it and you're presuming to argue details armed with faulty summaries. This is entirely different from me inasmuch as what I'm arguing is A) within the material I have and B) has yet to be discredited with any sort of evidence by Illustrious, because he refuses to present.



Fine, I'll answer your little point. Satal tried to have Ulic assassinated. Ulic fought off the assassins, was told by Aleema that Satal ordered the attack that killed master Arca, and then went to kill Satal. In a duel that lasted all of one page, he did it.

The Bourbons were the royal family of France. If I were a knight that married a Bourbon princess, does that make me a Bourbon? It makes me as much a Bourbon as much as Ulic was a Krath. Ulic was not part of the secret sect of aristocrats that defined the Krath, ergo he was not a Krath.



I should make a list of all the insults you and Illustrious throw around rather than debating.



I question your literacy, Glentract. Original quote:



There. Perhaps I've made it clearer.



It helps an awful lot when you secure the loyalty of the military of the entire system and you're assisted by your equally-powerful cousin. She did not take the system by standing out in a field and waving her arms about, casting Sith spells. She sent her army down and assisted them from orbit with illusions. (Both sides, by the way, fought with swords. Some revolt.)



The actions they took to perform this goal was terrorism, not battle. The only real battles were on Onderon and Coruscant.



Yes, let's compare an instrument of war to an industrial complex. Nevermind that the instrument of war had a capital-ship-destroying superlaser and thousands of starfighters in addition to "turrets." Good one. So are you saying the Foerost shipyards could have withstood an attack from the starfighters the Rebellion used at Yavin IV? Hell no.



Yes, Glentract, I know nothing of war and you're the expert. Please, oh enlightened one, tell me to whom the Clones answered to: the Chancellor or Yoda?

Also enlighten me as to this: How would Yoda mystically conjure up and position units if Palpatine, because he's the strategic commander, decides to send troops to Mygeeto instead of, say, Geonosis?

Oh please, Mr. Expert, answer a final question: To whom do the United States military answer to: the President, or their generals?

Generals provide advice on strategy and conduct battles, Glentract, but they cannot lawfully commit troops without executive, civilian authorization.



I again question your literacy. I'll repeat and try to dumb it down for you:



In other words, all of the Jedi in the galaxy appeared above Yavin IV while Kun was on the surface looking over the spoils from Ossus. Kun's not so arrogant as to believe he can survive a confrontation with all Jedi, so he performs the ritual to unleash his spirit.

Did you get it that time?



Also remember that Vodo can make his walking stick more powerful than a lightsaber (DLOTS) and was the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. Oh, but it's no big accomplishment to slap Vodo around like he's an initiate, isn't it Glentract?



No, it was more Kun lashing out with the Dark Side. He still won instantly.



I don't see why you keep saying these aren't large battles, as if that's relevant to the fact that Aleema has never won a confrontation with another Force user aside from her use of Sadow's ship.

And Kun decidedly was not at the height of his power, given that little time had passed since he had destroyed Freedon Nadd. As well, it was only a lightsaber duel, not one in which either used the force offensively. Kun had yet to create his short-hilted double-bladed lightsaber and invent the unique style that cut down the lightsaber Grandmaster of the Jedi order. He had yet to study all that Sadow's horde of knowledge and artifacts had to offer. He had yet to recover the holocron from Odan-Urr.

He was nowhere near the height of his power.



Scene:

Kun walks in, the Sith holocron Odan is holding flies to his hand. Odan knows he's in the presence of a dark power and tries to blind Kun to the Force, sending Kun's body into a small pile of debris. Kun reaches up with a glowing hand from the pile, taunting Odan-Urr with "Master, do you really know who I am? I am the Dark Lord of the Sith." Next panel, Odan-Urr falls to the ground and dies.

Kun's win is instantaneous.

Source: The Sith War.



And? Ood was an ancient treelike Jedi master. You act as if beating a Jedi Master in anything isn't an accomplishment, let alone flat-out curbstomping the most ancient and powerful Jedi the Order has to offer in every occasion.

It was a win for Kun inasmuch as despite the fact that all of the Jedi were against him, he survived because he performed the ritual before the Jedi began their attack. You're ridiculous to say he got "pwned" in it. Even your vaunted Ragnos would have lost horribly in that situation.

Again,



Ulic increased, but not nearly as much. He was unable to perform feats anywhere near the level of Exar Kun. He was nearly matched in an admittedly-stacked battle with Mandalore.

And I said Kun realized his true power was the dark side. Read what I quoted. I question your literacy yet again.



Says who? From what we understand, there is no natural resistance to force attacks, or else Yoda would never have been struck by Sidious' lightning, for instance. In addition, grief would be detrimental to a Sith's defenses because it is much less useful than anger, fear, and hatred.



Oh, other than their appearance and their assistance in trapping Kun and apparently destroying him with the Light Side? Funny way of not helping.



I already disproved this, Glentract. I hate to bring this up again, but I question your literacy:





We only know that, at that time, Ulic was Kun's equal in lightsaber combat. Kun had, in the small amount of time he spent with Nadd and studying Sith lore on Yavin IV, learned far more than Ulic did while boffing Aleema.

Oh, and like I said, there's no evidence of fear. There's also no evidence that it was Ragnos' spirit.



Good job ignoring my points by bringing up something irrelevant.

Alright Glentract, without R2-D2, Luke Skywalker would've been nothing more than a moisture farmer.

So what?



Ridiculous and disproven. Read above, I'm not arguing this with you. You're too far gone. My primary source trumps you, end of story.



Later on it reads that Exar Kun picked up the ability to read ancient Sith with his encounter on Korriban.



Oh, okay. Every quote that virtually slaps you in the face with the fact that the power to wrench cores from stars is irrelevant. Well, good to know you can just dismiss conclusive proof like that.



Corrections in order:

You first stated it was a black hole, I was going on what you wrote. Point remains that just because you don't want to believe the evidence doesn't make it untrue: it was the ship's power, not Naga's. Energy requirements are irrelevant, Glentract, the point was that using the Force to teleport, let alone teleport someone else is a feat unmatched by anyone.



And all you've shown is the following:

A) You insult, rather than debate, when you begin to lose.

B) You ignore evidence that goes against your current opinion.

C) As part of ignoring or discrediting said evidence, you've come up with the ridiculous theory that a summary in a reference book (Cliff's Notes) is more accurate about a story than the primary source in which the story is actually told (A Tale of Two Cities, for instance).

D) You selectively read and misunderstand your opponent's arguments.



1) That isn't true, he need only have run. It's easier since the ship was already at full-speed.

2) There is no evidence - none whatsoever - that he did. While Vodo's holocron is fuzzy on details, it says explicitly that Naga and his crew escaped. Naga could not and didn't hold anything back. He ran.

3) How are you so sure that the supernova's going to travel that fast when A) the core of the star is missing (Aleema's star collapsed and imploded first) and B) the star had not yet reached the point in its cycle where it was supposed to go supernova?

4) Ossus was the only planet close enough to Kemplex Nine to offer military aid when attacked by Sadow's ship. Kemplex Nine is next to the Cron Cluster. It took hours for the firestorm of the Cron Cluster supernovae to reach Ossus.

You've lost. You have little evidence, and what you have is trumped by my own.

WTF does this have to do with the thread??????????????????????????

I found it quite amusing, didn't you?

Very

LMAO. You should go see the Durge vs Sidious thread, not exactly Durge vs Sidious.

I know I sound stupid, but what does LMAO stand for?

Laughing my ass off.

You don't sound stupid.

Really , yeah I saw it!!!111