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Neutral setting. No element of surprise or significant advantage for either party. Ragnos is hefting a large sword like Sadow's and his Sceptre. Luke has a pair of lightsabers.

Who wins?

Who is Dark Next Luke?

I believe he means Dark Nest Luke. It's post-NJO Luke.

And actually, this would be a titanic battle. I'm leaning towards the Skywalker, although the most likely outcome is that the two use some Maxi-Uber Force attack and decimate a solar system or four.

Oh snap.... zee typo!

And I did this to see how high Dark Nest Skywalker stacks up.

I'd need to know more about Dark Nest Luke.

And any reasons for that opinion Faunus?

Glentract, who has read Dark Nest says luke is pretty weak. around mace.

Me? Not particularly. All we have to go on for Ragnos is assumptions. And I personally doubt that I will ever read one of the Dark Nest books, considering the author(s) stacked up more bull**** than that pile in Jurassic Park.

It's more of a gut instinct. In all honesty, I doubt that either will walk out of this alive. Even if defeated, that little thing called 'heroism' would compel Luke to commit some form of dramatic, Force-induced suicide in an attempt to take out Ragnos.

As for the said Sith Lord, I don't see him allowing anyone to defeat him and live to tell about it. And considering the power that Tavion was able to amass with the scepter, the power it would possess in the hands of Marka Ragnos would be incomprehensible.

In a nutshell, I just think this battle would rage for a few hours, then result in half the galaxy being blown into oblivion.

Originally posted by Darth Avis
Glentract, who has read Dark Nest says luke is pretty weak. around mace.

The phase 'hell no' comes to mind. Luke, from a page of Dark Nest that I have read, can manage to teleport Mara Jade's starship. Mace Windu's level? I think not.

hmm? Hey im just speaking Glentracts words.

A link, please?

Janus can you remember where it is. Remember: weak pill

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
The phase 'hell no' comes to mind. Luke, from a page of Dark Nest that I have read, can manage to teleport Mara Jade's starship. Mace Windu's level? I think not.

Luke didn't transport Mara's ship. He created an illusion of Mara's ship and then cloaked the real one, getting their enemies to follow the illusion ship. Impressive, but afterwards Luke was extremely drained. He said he felt he was starting to look like Sidious.

Luke also had a lot of difficulty against Lomi and Welk. They really aren't very powerful, definately weaker than the Slayers Luke took in TUF.

Also, I've only read the first two, the next one comes out late December. I believe we will get to see a more powerful Luke in this next book.


For this thread, I would say that Luke loses to Marka. Legacy of the Force Luke may be more powerful than Ragnos, but DN Luke has shown powers weaker than those he showed 5 years prior in NJO.

Like Avis said that I said, in DN, Luke's power(definately in lightsaber skill) is around that of Mace's. Seeing as he was probably holding back(maybe in fear of going to the Darkside) and that is doesn't make any sense that he would have gotten weaker, I would place DN Luke a little above Exar, but maybe even with Nadd or Kressh.

So basically, Ragnos still reigns supreme over all except Sekot(which is unfair because he is a living planet).

You think Luke has reached past his prime? Or could the kaiburr crystal be wearing off?

There are to many damn Lukes.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Me? Not particularly. All we have to go on for Ragnos is assumptions. And I personally doubt that I will ever read one of the Dark Nest books, considering the author(s) stacked up more bull**** than that pile in Jurassic Park.

It's more of a gut instinct. In all honesty, I doubt that either will walk out of this alive. Even if defeated, that little thing called 'heroism' would compel Luke to commit some form of dramatic, Force-induced suicide in an attempt to take out Ragnos.

As for the said Sith Lord, I don't see him allowing anyone to defeat him and live to tell about it. And considering the power that Tavion was able to amass with the scepter, the power it would possess in the hands of Marka Ragnos would be incomprehensible.

In a nutshell, I just think this battle would rage for a few hours, then result in half the galaxy being blown into oblivion.

Exactly, all we do have for Ragnos is assumptions, but all the assumptions we have indicate he's way up there in power. I think it's just plain unfair for anything to be compared to Ragnos, for both parties. Ragnos can either by a bit stronger than Sadow and Kressh, or he can be some titan amongst the godlike Sith, it's just tough to make the comparison right now.

Now, NJO Luke is way overpowered, now if they make him even stronger, it's conceivable he be up their with Ragnos if you assume him at the weaker end of the conceivable spectrum, but we have no idea just the true depth of Ragnos' power.

Like you said, if Tavion could amass that kind of power with Ragnos' scepter, it's nearly inconceivable what the high end of his abilities are.

And here I thought I had dispelled some of the illusions we had on the ancient Sith.

I've not much time at the moment, so I'll talk about Ragnos' scepter...from a video game:

Exactly how does this scepter make Ragnos himself powerful? How is this scepter any different in concept from Naga Sadow's starship? Can you be certain it was Tavion who amassed power with it? If so, why was Tavion defeated by a newly-knighted Jedi?

The scepter, in my opinion, is a weapon just like Sadow's ship was. It's not indicative of its creator's force power.

Originally posted by IKC
And here I thought I had dispelled some of the illusions we had on the ancient Sith.

I've not much time at the moment, so I'll talk about Ragnos' scepter...from a video game:

Exactly how does this scepter make Ragnos himself powerful? How is this scepter any different in concept from Naga Sadow's starship? Can you be certain it was Tavion who amassed power with it? If so, why was Tavion defeated by a newly-knighted Jedi?

The scepter, in my opinion, is a weapon just like Sadow's ship was. It's not indicative of its creator's force power.

Substantiate.

Again you have no ability of doing so besides more hypotheticals. Again, you're attempting to debate a negative instead of substantiate a positive. Pick up a course in debate. We don't have solid evidence of Ragnos's ability. We do have the author telling us his capacity, and from the capacity, we can tell -- definitively like the sky is blue or yoda is green -- that he is ridiculously powerful.

You don't even own Golden Age of the Sith, I suggest you grab it.

Id say ragnos wins aswell, as illustrious already said, we have nothing specific about ragnos power, only that he was unbelievably powerful...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke didn't transport Mara's ship. He created an illusion of Mara's ship and then cloaked the real one, getting their enemies to follow the illusion ship. Impressive, but afterwards Luke was extremely drained. He said he felt he was starting to look like Sidious.

Luke also had a lot of difficulty against Lomi and Welk. They really aren't very powerful, definately weaker than the Slayers Luke took in TUF.

Also, I've only read the first two, the next one comes out late December. I believe we will get to see a more powerful Luke in this next book.


For this thread, I would say that Luke loses to Marka. Legacy of the Force Luke may be more powerful than Ragnos, but DN Luke has shown powers weaker than those he showed 5 years prior in NJO.

Like Avis said that I said, in DN, Luke's power(definately in lightsaber skill) is around that of Mace's. Seeing as he was probably holding back(maybe in fear of going to the Darkside) and that is doesn't make any sense that he would have gotten weaker, I would place DN Luke a little above Exar, but maybe even with Nadd or Kressh.

So basically, Ragnos still reigns supreme over all except Sekot(which is unfair because he is a living planet).

DNLuke above Exar????You just said he's weaker here than in NJO, and there he was barely a match for Exar's ghost!!!On the rest, I agree, including that he is even with Ludo and Freedon.

Luke is getting stronger by the book, eh?
Wonder how long it will take before SW fans kill the writer/s or till Lucas puts a stop to it personally.

How long will it take them to find their adress numbers?

It'd be nice if a core character that spoke English died. Chewbacca should have outlived them all.

The fact that he was killed off at all had me pissed for a long time. There was so much more that could have been done with his character. . .

On a side note, Admiral Akbar passes away in The Unifying Force.

He was ancient as it was. How'd he go?

I belive he died of old age; he's too good to be killed by conventional means.

Originally posted by Dush-khan Mabeo
DNLuke above Exar????You just said he's weaker here than in NJO, and there he was barely a match for Exar's ghost!!!On the rest, I agree, including that he is even with Ludo and Freedon.

No, I said he has displayed lesser powers in DN then he did in NJO, not that he is weaker. Luke is indeed a good bit more powerful, he just hasn't shown it.

Exar Kun's ghost never defeated Luke. Kyp Durron did over half of the work. It said Luke could have easily stopped either one on their own. Added to that, that was JA Luke, not NJO Luke, who is several, maybe dozens of time more powerful.

For some strange reason, you just revived my good mood.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No, I said he has displayed lesser powers in DN then he did in NJO, not that he is weaker. Luke is indeed a good bit more powerful, he just hasn't shown it.

Exar Kun's ghost never defeated Luke. Kyp Durron did over half of the work. It said Luke could have easily stopped either one on their own. Added to that, that was JA Luke, not NJO Luke, who is several, maybe dozens of time more powerful.

No, that was NJOLuke, and still Exar imprisoned Luke and was finaly killed by Luke and the whole Academy togeather.And that was the 4000 year-old insane ionized air particals, hardly the real deal.

no that was JA luke not NJO luke

Originally posted by Darth Brainiac
No, that was NJOLuke, and still Exar imprisoned Luke and was finaly killed by Luke and the whole Academy togeather.And that was the 4000 year-old insane ionized air particals, hardly the real deal.

It was JA Luke, not NJO Luke. Read before you jump in with your unfounded conclusions.

I don't know where "several times" or "dozens" comes into play; I guess it's Glentract trying to do discreet force mathematics again.

Ragnos would take any luke...the closest being NJO luke where ragnos may lose a limb or two...

Originally posted by w00t2112
Ragnos would take any luke...the closest being NJO luke where ragnos may lose a limb or two...

Why would NJO Luke be the toughest? DN Luke is a fair bit more powerful. I imagine Luke will be able to take people like Exar and Sadow by the end of the Legacy of the Force Series(which starts in May, but won't be finished until late 08').

Luke's already probably the strongest Force User who's ever lived, minus Jacen at 'Avatar status'
And JA Luke was being attacked by both his student who he was trying not to harm and Exar Kun who was tapping into a well of dark side energy in Yavin...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke's already probably the strongest Force User who's ever lived, minus Jacen at 'Avatar status'
And JA Luke was being attacked by both his student who he was trying not to harm and Exar Kun who was tapping into a well of dark side energy in Yavin...

I don't remember reading that "Luke was the strongest force user who's ever lived." I'd like to see some evidence for this opinion.

Lightsnake...heres an idea, why dont you marry Luke Skywalker, in reality or not, calm down your defence for him...man...feats dont mean more power, and from your other posts on Ragnos vs NJO Luke ,thats what you seem to base it on, for all we know Ragnos could destroy solar systems...but it isnt proven..but we do know he was feared, even as a half-bred, that implies power or conquest, yet ragnos did not expand the sith empire, therefore, for him to stay in control he would need to be more powerful over everyone in the sith empire, otherwise he would be killed....

Originally posted by w00t2112
Lightsnake...heres an idea, why dont you marry Luke Skywalker, in reality or not, calm down your defence for him...man...feats dont mean more power, and from your other posts on Ragnos vs NJO Luke ,thats what you seem to base it on, for all we know Ragnos could destroy solar systems...but it isnt proven..but we do know he was feared, even as a half-bred, that implies power or conquest, yet ragnos did not expand the sith empire, therefore, for him to stay in control he would need to be more powerful over everyone in the sith empire, otherwise he would be killed....

or more enigmatic. beings tend to fear things that don't know or understand and if one being of high importance does that then others follow.

Yes, yes, for all we know....we DO know Luke can toss around star destroyers with the force, move around Dovin Bassal black holes to destroy forces of Vong, kill seven of the Vong's elite warriors in seconds AFTER cutting his way through an army after arriving from battle with no rest and STILL have enough to take on Supreme Overlord Shimrra and kill him, not to mention survive as a spirit, join the Force, defeat a small legion of Dark Jedi on his own, defeat a Dark Jedi who could go head to head with Ood Bnar effortlessly, defeat Palpatine at his ultimte strongest, creates a massive illusion on his own that covers the size of a gargantuan space ship...manages to communicate with crystals...

If Ragnos could destroy solar systems, would he really be that afraid to expand Sith space?

You have been told why he didn't before. Ragnos didn't want to expand because he didn't want a civil war. Having a civil war between people who could destroy stars is a bad thing.

They wouldn't attack him on his death bed, they wouldn't have argued expansionism

He knew that expanding would mean the end of the Sith Empire, a war would do so. He feared the Jedi because of story's from Ajunta Pall and what they did to those before him, long before him and because he knew that the Sith Empire would eventually collapse into itself if they would try to expand.

Like very Sith empire eventually did.

By the time Ragnos was conceived of, Ajunta didn't exist by a longshot

Yeah Ajunta was long dead... He learned from those story's... Ragnos isn't stupid.

Hardly. He knew they didn't have what it took to take the Republic and TRIED warning Ludo and Naga of their folly

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hardly. He knew they didn't have what it took to take the Republic and TRIED warning Ludo and Naga of their folly

He thought so, he didn't know because he didn't know the Republic or the Jedi. He did know that Ajunta couldn't take the Jedi however and he knew that the Sith Empire would be destroyed in a civil war if they did try. It was fear not lack of power.

It took their entire force just to deadlock three worlds an a devastated Fleet matched a tiny KRessh fleet...And Ragnos as a spirit tends to know a lot

Before he became a spirit.. Afterall he didn't rule the Sith Empire as a spirit.

He certain;y knew what he was talking about when he cautioned Ludo and NAga though

Yeah but we are talking about why Ragnos didn't attack the republic when he was alive... He couldn't have known about anything when he was alive, and as a spirit that can also be doubted.

It could be argued he didn't KNOW about the Republic when he was alive as anything more than a fairy tale

It's also kind of silly to speculate this heavily into Ragnos' intentions. The guy ruled Sith for over a century; I'm quite sure he had very good reasons for being against expansion of the Empire.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, yes, for all we know....we DO know Luke can toss around star destroyers with the force

"Size doesn't matter"



Yeah. He could manipulate some animals and was close to some heart attack after doing is. Very impressive.



The Vong that had their armors and weapons weakened so that they couldn't withstand lightsaber hits any longer meaning that Luke killed seven people that didn't have much defence against the lightsaber(s) he was wielding and then he proceeded to take Shimrra getting nearly killed while he had some little force heal aiding him.



Who was only able to communicate with his own family members while Ragnos remained alive for thousands of years and could communicate with everybody he like to...



Of course this is nothing compared to reigning over an Empire filled with Sith Lords for more than a century keeping all of them under your belt like Ragnos did...



Defeating Palpatine with the help of his sister. The creation of the illusions isn't a great feat since it was reproduced by minor force users effortless and it lasts for an infinite amount of time without Luke having to focus on it....



You do know the difference between "destroy" and "conquer" ? Sadow - even if you estimate that he could only do it with his ship - could destroy planets. Why didn't he simply move in and destroy Coruscant ? Should have been easy for him. And considering the fact that Ragnos was without any doubt stronger than Sadow he could have done the same. But "expansion" doesn't mean "destroy everything else". And Ragnos did know that expanding the Sith space would possibly lead to a war with people that defeated his ancestors. Even if he thought he could win - why risk an Empire you already own to take over another bit of space that you can't control ? Even Sidious with all the military power of the GE and all the superweapons wasn't able to control everything in his Empire.

Originally posted by Borbarad
"Size doesn't matter"



Yeah. He could manipulate some animals and was near some heart infact after doing is. Very impressive.



The Vong that had their armors and weapons weakened so that they couldn't withstand lightsaber hits any longer meaning that Luke killed seven people that didn't have much defence against the lightsaber(s) he was wielding and then he proceeded to take Shimrra getting nearly killed while he had some little force heal aiding him.



Who was only able to communicate with his own family members while Ragnos remained alive for thousands of years and could communicate with everybody he like to...



Of course this is nothing compared to reigning over an Empire filled with Sith Lords for more than a century keeping all of them under your belt like Ragnos did...



Defeating Palpatine with the help of his sister. The creation of the illusions isn't a great feat since it was reproduced by minor force users effortless and it lasts for an infinite amount of time without Luke having to focus on it....



You do know the difference between "destroy" and "conquer" ? Sadow - even if you estimate that he could only do it with his ship - could destroy planets. Why didn't he simply move in and destroy Coruscant ? Should have been easy for him. And considering the fact that Ragnos was without any doubt stronger than Sadow he could have done the same. But "expansion" doesn't mean "destroy everything else". And Ragnos did know that expanding the Sith space would possibly lead to a war with people that defeated his ancestors. Even if he thought he could win - why risk an Empire you already own to take over another bit of space that you can't control ? Even Sidious with all the military power of the GE and all the superweapons wasn't able to control everything in his Empire.

1. Which is why Yoda struggles with temple debris.

2. Vong technology creating collapses in gravity long enough tod evastate their forces. Impressive indeed.

3. Funny how those Vong weren't on Caluula and never came in contact with Alpha Red. And notice Luke killed them all by running them through unarmored areas. And by the end of the day, what opponent who was fresh and ready got decapitated by the exhausted warrior who'd fought his way through an army?

4. Could be that he was stuck in a well of dark side energy with Kun. He still showed more power as a spirit to help his students in a nest of dark side energ.y Why does everyone ignore how Ragnos exists on Korriban and needs connections to the world? When Ragnos exists in a well of energy that's an anathema for him, let me know.

5. Yeah, of course, nice dodge. By Sith Lords you mean 'cowardly beaurcrats who go to war to avenge a talking head?'

6. Really? So what he did in Dark Nest and Dark Empire: Create a perfect illusion with no enchancements and DE: Create an illusion of a massive fleet is 'nothing?' And when he beat Palpatine in the saber duel, just him. Leia didn't join in until the force storm

7. IF Ragnos blew up Coruscant, the galaxy'd fall in line mighty quick. Tarkin knew Alderaan served better as an example.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Which is why Yoda struggles with temple debris.


Which is why he lifted basically an entire temple from two Jedi during the Clone War cartoons and tore an entire mountain down before that to destroy some droids. Not even talking about letting ships crash together and thereby destroying them during the attack on Coruscant.



Later reproduced by Kyp Durron much more easily ?



So for some mysterious reason they didn't use their weapons able to protect them against lightsabers. OK. Luke was too fast. He killed one of them with force powers (guess what Ragnos would do). And I wonder how you keep ignoring the fact that you can't compare "force users" to normal fighters.



How do you get that "well of dark side energy" stuff from. Read the comments of Lucas on the issue. There is no "dark side energy" - just the force used in different ways. Luke utilized the ruins on Yavin 4 to throw some ships out of the system together with his students. Do you want to tell me he used that Dark Side at that point ? The temples were a focus for force powers but not a "well of dark side energy" and the same counts for Korriban. Because something like that simply doesn't exists. All "Dark Side" powers on Korriban where the presence of the spirits of the Ancient and not some mysterious "well of the Dark Side".



How often do I have to tell you: They didn't go to war to "avenge" a talking head. They did go to war because they thought that the republic did attack him. And I like to see the "beaurocrats" that behead their "superiors" to get their position. I guess visiting a government agency where you live is live threatening...



Read the Black Fleet trilogy and talk to me about "illusions" again.
And yes...Luke defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Mace did it, according to the ROTS script Yoda disarmed Sidious. If Mace could do it, Dooku would be able to do the same and maybe Depa Billaba (being almost equal to Mace in terms of lightsaber fights). And they all would get curbstomped by Ragnos.



So why didn't Ragnos just pick another planet as an "example" ? Demonstrating that you're able to destroy a planet or an entire system - something that people without force powers weren't able to do for 5,000 years after Ragnos time - would surely have some nice effect on the remaining Republic. Don't you think so ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is why he lifted basically an entire temple from two Jedi during the Clone War cartoons and tore an entire mountain down before that to destroy some droids. Not even talking about letting ships crash together and thereby destroying them during the attack on Coruscant.



Later reproduced by Kyp Durron much more easily ?



So for some mysterious reason they didn't use their weapons able to protect them against lightsabers. OK. Luke was too fast. He killed one of them with force powers (guess what Ragnos would do). And I wonder how you keep ignoring the fact that you can't compare "force users" to normal fighters.



How do you get that "well of dark side energy" stuff from. Read the comments of Lucas on the issue. There is no "dark side energy" - just the force used in different ways. Luke utilized the ruins on Yavin 4 to throw some ships out of the system together with his students. Do you want to tell me he used that Dark Side at that point ? The temples were a focus for force powers but not a "well of dark side energy" and the same counts for Korriban. Because something like that simply doesn't exists. All "Dark Side" powers on Korriban where the presence of the spirits of the Ancient and not some mysterious "well of the Dark Side".



How often do I have to tell you: They didn't go to war to "avenge" a talking head. They did go to war because they thought that the republic did attack him. And I like to see the "beaurocrats" that behead their "superiors" to get their position. I guess visiting a government agency where you live is live threatening...



Read the Black Fleet trilogy and talk to me about "illusions" again.
And yes...Luke defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Mace did it, according to the ROTS script Yoda disarmed Sidious. If Mace could do it, Dooku would be able to do the same and maybe Depa Billaba (being almost equal to Mace in terms of lightsaber fights). And they all would get curbstomped by Ragnos.



So why didn't Ragnos just pick another planet as an "example" ? Demonstrating that you're able to destroy a planet or an entire system - something that people without force powers weren't able to do for 5,000 years after Ragnos time - would surely have some nice effect on the remaining Republic. Don't you think so ?

1. The cartoon's expression of events is 100 percent canon now?

2. When did Kyp Durron do it 'much more reasily?' He did it....on a smaller scale.

3. Luke battered through their defenses and killed them all effortlessly. And by the way: His lightning is the strongest lightning we've ever seen and has never been utilized before. Emerald lightning kills on contact...and did you miss where the Slayers were hardly 'ordinary fighters' and Kyp got beaten down by one of them?

4. What do you call Korriban? Nadd called it a place of the Dark Side, Kun said dark side energy was thick there...if there's no dark side energy explain the lake by Thon, explain the Dantooine cave, explain Yavin....and you'll notice Korriban IS heavy with the Dark Side, same as Byss. The hundreds of Dark Side infused objects there don't really help matters

5. Ragnos was the only member of the ancients with any backbone minus Naga.

6. Yes, ragnos is talked about twice, growls threateningly and suddenly he can curbstomp those people. In the ROTS script, Shaak Ti was killed by Grievous. It never made the final cut, period. And Agen Kolar, who was nearly Mace's equal with a saber SO disarmed Palpatine....and Depa? Weakminded. Dooku? Feared Sidious completely and would never stand against him...and that's not even Dark Empire Sidious in a young, healthy body

7. I don't know, why DIDN'T Ragnos?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. When did Kyp Durron do it 'much more reasily?' He did it....on a smaller scale.

No, Kyp did the exact same thing but much more easily. Where did you get the BS idea that it was on a smaller scale?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Luke battered through their defenses and killed them all effortlessly. And by the way: His lightning is the strongest lightning we've ever seen and has never been utilized before. Emerald lightning kills on contact...and did you miss where the Slayers were hardly 'ordinary fighters' and Kyp got beaten down by one of them?

Where did you get this crap? Kyp fought 4 of them after fighting in a large battle and having been ambushed by them. Luke was standing there and they were in plain view when they came up to him. Kyp was ambushed and didn't not know about their different weapons, but Luke did.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. The cartoon's expression of events is 100 percent canon now?


Does that particular scene contradict anything in the movies ?



He did exactly the same but more easily.



He faced four of them and they ambushed him. Same thing Grievous was doing all the time in the clone wars. And we have seen lesser force users than Ragnos performing instakill attacks on other force users.



It doesn't matter since it contradicts Lucas own statements about the force. The lightside is what balances the force and the Dark Side is "chaos". There are places that are "infected" with the Dark Side because very powerful Dark Side users are burried there (Korriban) or did bind a part of their power to it (the tree on Dagobah). But there is no "well" of Dark Side energies that can be utilized to boost people's power up.



Oh please stop throwing your bias against the ancient Sith arround here. They duelled for titles, they invented force abilities to kill people effortless, they all dealt with the Dark Side and now nobody except Ragnos and Naga did have any backbone ?



How was Agen Kolar nearly Mace's equal with a saber ? Agen and Saesee were cut down before they did move while Mace already has moved into a defensive stance when Sidious comes flying. Hardly impressive as duellists. And it doesn't matter if Dooku fears Sidious (ahahaha) or if Depa is weakminded. They could still outduell him with a lightsaber (and I was talking about lightsaber fights). And what would having a younger body do to Sidious duelling skill - since when does age affect a force user much ?



Would you - reigning over an Empire - risk a war to take over another huge amount of space when you know that you can't control that space with your own forces ? That would be stupid.

The idea that Kyp didn't grab two of them and devastate a large part of Vong forces? And the slayer beat Kyp down on Caluula....Luke killed seven of them, no sweat.

1. Yes, it does: Mace destroying an entire army of super droids on his own. Clone Wars is meant to be exagerrated. Some of the cartoon also contradicts another book

2. Which book?

3. Name a single one who managed to kill them literally in one attack with lightning that kills creatures normally untouchable with the Force, and kills them instantly on contact. Which instakills were these?

4. Every bit of EU goes against that statement and the place on Dagobah. Lucas contradicted himself.

5. If they invented techniques to kill people instantly, where were they? Why didn't Naga and Ludo using them instead of battering swords for a few minutes? Why did Naga have to trick and trap Gav instead of just blown him up? Why couldn't they notice the Massassi uprising?

6. LOE: Dooku feared Sidious. And yeah, Agen was referred to as one of the better swordsman the order had produced and skilled enough to give Mace a run for his money with a saber.

7. Like the Sith would bother to resist him. Just set an obvious trap, kill Simus and watch the chaos unfold

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Yes, it does: Mace destroying an entire army of super droids on his own. Clone Wars is meant to be exagerrated. Some of the cartoon also contradicts another book

I was asking if there is any contradiction to Yoda being able to lift a massive amount of stones up or tear a mountain down if he likes to and you come up with Mace Windu ? Nice try to dodge the point. We've seen that Yoda can lift a X-Wing out of a swamp. We have seen that he was catching that metal stuff Dooku dropped on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC in the air. And we saw him catching a pod that Sidious threw down at him with the force. So...is there anything that contradicts the idea that Yoda would be able lift tons of stones up ? No. But thanks anyways.



Kreia killed three Council Members with one force attack. Exar Kun killed Odan Urr with one force attack. Nadd's spirit killed Ommin with one force attack. Exar Kun killed Nadd's spirit with one force attack.
And read TUF again. Luke didn't kill the slayer with the force attack but just disabled him and then he was killed with a lightsaber.



You still don't get it. First Lucas can contradict himself as much as he likes. If he states something it's true and everything contradicting it is false. Period. Second: The place on Dagobah was no "well of the Dark Side" it was just a nexus point for Dark Side powers brought there from the outside. That powers can't be utilized to do something and this is what you basically say about Kun and Ragnos - that they utilized the power of a place to do what they did. And this can't be done. Period.



See above. And some of them won't work against equally powerful people. Force lightning was pretty much useless against Yoda since he could simply absorb it. And what did Naga have to ? Obviously he wanted Gab alive. And what Massassi uprising you're talking about ?



Oh not this again. Shadowhunter talks about Qui-Gon being Mace's equal which was obviously false and we have seen in ROTS that Agen is nowhere near Mace when it comes to lightsaber fights otherwise Sidious would have been death before being able to kill a single Jedi or at least Agen would have moved before Sidious cut him down which he - surprise, surprise - didn't while Mace reacted directly.



Err...what are you talking about ? Ragnos could easily talk them into starting a war against the Republic since he was the unquestioned ruler. I was saying that he could have attacked and maybe even defeated the Republic but he couldn't have kept it under control with his own forces. Sidious didn't manage to do that with the greatest military force the galaxy has ever seen including tenthousands of Star Destroyers, millions of other ships, superweapons and billions of storm troopers.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I was asking if there is any contradiction to Yoda being able to lift a massive amount of stones up or tear a mountain down if he likes to and you come up with Mace Windu ? Nice try to dodge the point. We've seen that Yoda can lift a X-Wing out of a swamp. We have seen that he was catching that metal stuff Dooku dropped on Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC in the air. And we saw him catching a pod that Sidious threw down at him with the force. So...is there anything that contradicts the idea that Yoda would be able lift tons of stones up ? No. But thanks anyways.



Kreia killed three Council Members with one force attack. Exar Kun killed Odan Urr with one force attack. Nadd's spirit killed Ommin with one force attack. Exar Kun killed Nadd's spirit with one force attack.
And read TUF again. Luke didn't kill the slayer with the force attack but just disabled him and then he was killed with a lightsaber.



You still don't get it. First Lucas can contradict himself as much as he likes. If he states something it's true and everything contradicting it is false. Period. Second: The place on Dagobah was no "well of the Dark Side" it was just a nexus point for Dark Side powers brought there from the outside. That powers can't be utilized to do something and this is what you basically say about Kun and Ragnos - that they utilized the power of a place to do what they did. And this can't be done. Period.



See above. And some of them won't work against equally powerful people. Force lightning was pretty much useless against Yoda since he could simply absorb it. And what did Naga have to ? Obviously he wanted Gab alive. And what Massassi uprising you're talking about ?



Oh not this again. Shadowhunter talks about Qui-Gon being Mace's equal which was obviously false and we have seen in ROTS that Agen is nowhere near Mace when it comes to lightsaber fights otherwise Sidious would have been death before being able to kill a single Jedi or at least Agen would have moved before Sidious cut him down which he - surprise, surprise - didn't while Mace reacted directly.



Err...what are you talking about ? Ragnos could easily talk them into starting a war against the Republic since he was the unquestioned ruler. I was saying that he could have attacked and maybe even defeated the Republic but he couldn't have kept it under control with his own forces. Sidious didn't manage to do that with the greatest military force the galaxy has ever seen including tenthousands of Star Destroyers, millions of other ships, superweapons and billions of storm troopers.

1. When is Clone Wars ever taken as 100 perent canon? Powers are severely exagerrated...and a group of star destroyers tend to be bigger than a tample. And wiping out an army of super droids'd require a bit more effort. We've seen Yoda exert effort on those tons of stone
2. Exar Kun killed someone as ancient as ODan-Urr who could barely walk with a Force attack? ODan was reknowned for his wisdom, not his skill and power. Kreia killed those masters because of the little hole in the force thing and that she caught them off guard with an attack they'd never seen before...and for NAdd, perhaps if they were fighting and Kun didn't do the equivalent of stabbing him in the back that'd hold weight...
3. The 'Green sparks'? I don't recall anyopne just being paralyzed from them.
4. A nexus point for the dark side? What on earth is the difference? Korriban and Byss'd be the same and for all intents and purposes? I use a quote from Kreia: "Korriban shall be as it always was. A graveyard for the darkest of the Sith Lords, still whispering within their tombs. It shall always be a source of evil, spawning threats throughout the millennia."
She has some others describing places as areas of dark energy, I believe....This IS an EU discussion, recall..

5. When the MAssassi got orders from sadow to butcher the Sith on the other ships? Yoda was certainly taken aback by Palpatine's lightning at first. And Naga wanted Gav alive? He certainly vaporized him readily enough...

6. Or maybe those sources or right and your interpretation of them are wrong. Why couldn't Mace save Kit and Saesee? And Qui-Gon was, what, pushing sixty? Maul used his age against him

7. If Ragnos could've destroyed planets so easily, he wouldn't have had much of a problem keeping the Republic under grips...and once more, it took all Sadow's forces to attack three planets...Kressh's fleet wasn't much larger than Sadow's beaten and battered fleet....three planets out of others like Hutt Space, the Chiss, the Ssi-Ruuk, the Yevetha....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When is Clone Wars ever taken as 100 perent canon? Powers are severely exagerrated...and a group of star destroyers tend to be bigger than a tample. And wiping out an army of super droids'd require a bit more effort. We've seen Yoda exert effort on those tons of stone

If you want to argue about "Visionaries" being 100 % canon if they don't contradict something than the CW cartoons are canon too if they don't contradict something else. Yoda exerts effort ? He just stands there and is lifting the stones up.



Odan Urr wasn't known for power ? He could strip people's force connection of and was try to do that to Kun (he did teach Nomi just before and then he wants to do it on Kun). The attack fails for some reason and then Kun does nothing else but point his hand on Odan and Odan dies.
That little "hole in the force" thing comes from the Ancient Sith so it is known to Ragnos. How exactly will Luke protect himself against it considering the fact that it is a technique there is "no defence" against ?
Kun was stabbing Nadd in the back ? Again: Which comic did you read? Nadd tells Kun they should start with some alchemy working to give Nadd a new body. Kun tells him he had enough of him and hits him with the amulet on his hand. Hardly a suprise attack.



The slayer dropped on the ground and then gets finished with a lightsaber. Nothing said that the slayer was "dead".



Where does this description say that Korriban is some mysterious well of the Dark Side ? Yeah...it spawns threads because of the knowledge stored their and the Ancient Sith are their, able to pass their knowledge to others. A source of evil doesn't exists. The force is just the force and the Dark Side comes if it is used to do "evil". You are making stuff up on the level of Supershadow...



Yeah...they won't be surprised if their own troops turn on them while outnumbering them (an entire ship filled with Massassi VS 1 single Sith Lord). So all the Jedi in the PT were weaklings because getting killed by Clones, right ? And Yoda wasn't killed by Sidious lightning. And yes...Naga vaporized Gav...why didn't he do that before when he could do it. Because he wanted him alive at that point maybe ?



Maul flatened him in a duel. And age ? Dooku being nearly 30 years older than Qui-Gon tooled Obi-Wan (who defeated Maul when just being a knight) and Anakin at once. And what should Mace have done to save Kit and Saesee ? Jump into Sidious blade an hope Sidious won't be able to remove it from his body again ? The point is that Sidious cut down Agen before Agen had shown even the smallest reaction while Mace managed to move into a defensive position in that time - but still Agen is Mace's equal ?



Sidious had the technology to destroy planets easily and still didn't manage to keep the Republic under grips.
And blah blah. Sadow attacked the Republics capitel planet (something that took the ENTIRE forces of the later Rebels to take over) and two other planets at once and he was beaten by the betrayal and an unpredictable sacrifice by Ooroo. So what do you want to tell me ?

um both of you guys make sokme good points and some worthless ones like borbarad you are arguing about the vong when you should realzie that they are freakin hard to kill even without the force and the force doesnt work against them and thats why its crazy that luke can manifest some sort of force attack that can harm them. and you're using TUF logic on the force i take it. which is dumb because it DOES go against everything lucas intended with the force evil vs good not that "different point of view" crap

and lightsnake qui-qon pushing 60 has nothing to do with why he lost yoda was 900 and the best with a lightsaber in the order even mace mace was 2 in force power and lightsaber skill next to yoda. and i thiink bobarad is right when he says that ragnos may be able to take over the republic but wouldn't be able to keep it under control. cause look at it name 1 country that CAN keep its inhabitants under control.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
um both of you guys make sokme good points and some worthless ones like borbarad you are arguing about the vong when you should realzie that they are freakin hard to kill even without the force and the force doesnt work against them and thats why its crazy that luke can manifest some sort of force attack that can harm them. and you're using TUF logic on the force i take it. which is dumb because it DOES go against everything lucas intended with the force evil vs good not that "different point of view" crap


How are the Vong hard to kill. The average wrong is twice as strong as a normal soldier and we have seen other people than Luke using the force on them and waste entire groups of them.

And I'm not using the TUF theory. Lucas made it perfectly clear. The light side is the "natural" (or balanced) status of the force. The Dark side is unnatural and basically "created" by those who use it. So how can natural "wells" of Dark Side energy exist when something like dark side energy itself doesn't exist ? There is just the force.
Every point where the Dark Side is stong was created by people who used the Dark Side and that power can't be utilized (Korriban is strong in the Dark Side because you have many Sith Lords burried there, the tree on Dagobah is a "dark side place" because it has absorbed the power of a Dark Jedi, Iziz was a dark side place because Nadd and his teachings influenced the place over centuries). Or have you ever seen a place were dark side users are stronger than they are on a "normal" place or light side users get weaker because it's dominated by the Dark Side ? Or vice versa ? I didn't. And that was the entire point.

Originally posted by Borbarad
If you want to argue about "Visionaries" being 100 % canon if they don't contradict something than the CW cartoons are canon too if they don't contradict something else. Yoda exerts effort ? He just stands there and is lifting the stones up.



Odan Urr wasn't known for power ? He could strip people's force connection of and was try to do that to Kun (he did teach Nomi just before and then he wants to do it on Kun). The attack fails for some reason and then Kun does nothing else but point his hand on Odan and Odan dies.
That little "hole in the force" thing comes from the Ancient Sith so it is known to Ragnos. How exactly will Luke protect himself against it considering the fact that it is a technique there is "no defence" against ?
Kun was stabbing Nadd in the back ? Again: Which comic did you read? Nadd tells Kun they should start with some alchemy working to give Nadd a new body. Kun tells him he had enough of him and hits him with the amulet on his hand. Hardly a suprise attack.



The slayer dropped on the ground and then gets finished with a lightsaber. Nothing said that the slayer was "dead".



Where does this description say that Korriban is some mysterious well of the Dark Side ? Yeah...it spawns threads because of the knowledge stored their and the Ancient Sith are their, able to pass their knowledge to others. A source of evil doesn't exists. The force is just the force and the Dark Side comes if it is used to do "evil". You are making stuff up on the level of Supershadow...



Yeah...they won't be surprised if their own troops turn on them while outnumbering them (an entire ship filled with Massassi VS 1 single Sith Lord). So all the Jedi in the PT were weaklings because getting killed by Clones, right ? And Yoda wasn't killed by Sidious lightning. And yes...Naga vaporized Gav...why didn't he do that before when he could do it. Because he wanted him alive at that point maybe ?



Maul flatened him in a duel. And age ? Dooku being nearly 30 years older than Qui-Gon tooled Obi-Wan (who defeated Maul when just being a knight) and Anakin at once. And what should Mace have done to save Kit and Saesee ? Jump into Sidious blade an hope Sidious won't be able to remove it from his body again ? The point is that Sidious cut down Agen before Agen had shown even the smallest reaction while Mace managed to move into a defensive position in that time - but still Agen is Mace's equal ?



Sidious had the technology to destroy planets easily and still didn't manage to keep the Republic under grips.
And blah blah. Sadow attacked the Republics capitel planet (something that took the ENTIRE forces of the later Rebels to take over) and two other planets at once and he was beaten by the betrayal and an unpredictable sacrifice by Ooroo. So what do you want to tell me ?

1. However, the cartoons contradict other things already standing. Sithisis, Prototypes, the Kashyyk and Grievous story? The grievous story and prototypes aren't disputable: Those are in the EU. Sithisis also disputes nothing.

2. He used a force push on Kun, he didn't try to block him. And the hole in the Force thing comes from the Ancient Sith? Here I thought it came from Nihilius...(This I got from Fishy btw.)

3. I said the equivalent of a backstab. Nadd dropped his guard and Kun destroyed him. There wasn't a glorious battle, Nadd got careless.

4. PRovide page number and I'll check it out on TUF

5. KReia also describes Malachor V as of the dark Side...I'll ask Fishy, he knows far mroe about KOTOR II than anyone else. Regardless of how Korriban originally started, its inhabitants have turned it into a nexus of the Dark Side, same as the Dagobah cave, same as the lake by Thon.

6. Sadow pretty much told them to sacrifice themselves and they didn't watch his private troops? And I thought these Sith Lords were worth 'billions' of soldiers...and where was there one Sith lord to a ship? We see the Massassi killing two of them in one panel. Unlike the Sith, the Jedi were fired upon by a legion, perfectly planned as opposed to being told 'you're gonna have to die.' Then "But...what if they resist, Naga?" And what changed with Naga and Gav? NAga clearly intended to kill him and could have done so...and maybe kept his sphere...hell, just leave a few Massassi to greet Gav.

7. Maul wore him out via acrobatics and vigorous technique. Obi-wan's technique didn't focus on that. And maybe, just maybe, MAce could attack while Sidious was? maybe move to save Kit?

8. Sidious kept the republic well under grips. The Rebels weren't exactly the Republic. Moreover, Gav's betrayal was certainly Naga's fault and until then, he was being deadlocked by the Republic forces....is it really not logical to not put the scrappy orphan in command and send him to his attacked planet?


And bor, I agree totally on that bit on the Dark/light side

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. However, the cartoons contradict other things already standing. Sithisis, Prototypes, the Kashyyk and Grievous story? The grievous story and prototypes aren't disputable: Those are in the EU. Sithisis also disputes nothing.

Sithisis makes Sidious at that time look as if he was a force god. Using a Sith ritual and then go and do what he did without anybody notice something is ridiculous. He learned that stuff from a holocron before - where have you ever seen anybody before Sidious doing stuff like that ? And somebody must have been able to do that since somebody did store the knowledge in the holocron. And some things Sidious did (cursing the unborn children of Anakin) did have no effect or are simply ridiculous - creating a storm of force lightning to scare the Younglings in the Jedi temple ? Please...



No. He was trying to cut Kun's connection to the force off. The narration at that point says: "He (Odan) reaches deep into the light, drawns on the bright power - as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider" and the thing he tried to teach Nomi on the panels before was to cut Dark Jedi's connection to the force off (as she later did with Ulic). So he tried to use it on Kun and it didn't work.
And no...that "hole in the force thing" was knowledge discovered on Malachor V, an ancient storehouse of Sith knowledge. Nihilus was just the "product" of that ability getting out of control - or the most powerful user of it.



What ? Nadd was standing metres away from Kun. Then Kun tells him that he has enough of getting commanded arround by Nadd, tells him "yes. there is power" and then rams the hand with Sadow's amulet into Nadd's spirit. So where was Nadd getting careless or dropping his guard ?



I haven't TUF at hand. I guess you know where that fight happens - simply look. Shouldn't take too long.



The point was that the Dark Side present at this places can't be used to boost the powers of living force users - otherwise a Sith Lord should be invincible at Korriban or Malachor or Ziost. That isn't the case. Even places that do boost the powerlevel of Dark Siders (e.g. the Star Forge) didn't do enough to keep Dark Siders from getting defeated.



At the point he killed Gav his sphere was already useless and when he captured him for the first time he needed him to command some battle. And the Massassi that killed the Sith Lords during the fight of Kressh vs Sadow before the Hyperspace War started ? I guess they didn't think about the Massassi being loyal to Sadow or do you think they would have used them to attack Sadow in this case ?



Please watch TPM and ROTS again. Maul hit Qui-Gon with the hilt of his lightsaber and then put the blade through his abdomen. Not much acrobatics there...and Obi-Wan as well as Qui-Gon both were form IV practioners which is by far the most acrobating way of fighting.
And how could Mace have attacked Sidious. He had Agen in his way so he couldn't do it directly and when Sidious attacked him and Kit, Sidious was utilizing the lack of space in his favour. I don't see him taking at least Kit Fisto down that easily in a "normal" duel.



But the Rebels did win in the end and had control over several worlds directly or indirectly supporting them. So obviously Sidious couldn't control the entire Republic even with the giant military forces he had.



How was Gav's betrayal Naga's fault ? Could he sense Gav's thoughts while producing massive illusions on Coruscant and prevent his meditation sphere getting attacked ? Could he foresee that Gav would run away from the battle he sended him to because his sister showing up ? And logic ? Well...if you want to punish somebody what would be better than forcing him to attack his own beloved planet and watching it getting destroyed ?



*marks date on the calendar*

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sithisis makes Sidious at that time look as if he was a force god. Using a Sith ritual and then go and do what he did without anybody notice something is ridiculous. He learned that stuff from a holocron before - where have you ever seen anybody before Sidious doing stuff like that ? And somebody must have been able to do that since somebody did store the knowledge in the holocron. And some things Sidious did (cursing the unborn children of Anakin) did have no effect or are simply ridiculous - creating a storm of force lightning to scare the Younglings in the Jedi temple ? Please...



No. He was trying to cut Kun's connection to the force off. The narration at that point says: "He (Odan) reaches deep into the light, drawns on the bright power - as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider" and the thing he tried to teach Nomi on the panels before was to cut Dark Jedi's connection to the force off (as she later did with Ulic). So he tried to use it on Kun and it didn't work.
And no...that "hole in the force thing" was knowledge discovered on Malachor V, an ancient storehouse of Sith knowledge. Nihilus was just the "product" of that ability getting out of control - or the most powerful user of it.



What ? Nadd was standing metres away from Kun. Then Kun tells him that he has enough of getting commanded arround by Nadd, tells him "yes. there is power" and then rams the hand with Sadow's amulet into Nadd's spirit. So where was Nadd getting careless or dropping his guard ?



I haven't TUF at hand. I guess you know where that fight happens - simply look. Shouldn't take too long.



The point was that the Dark Side present at this places can't be used to boost the powers of living force users - otherwise a Sith Lord should be invincible at Korriban or Malachor or Ziost. That isn't the case. Even places that do boost the powerlevel of Dark Siders (e.g. the Star Forge) didn't do enough to keep Dark Siders from getting defeated.



At the point he killed Gav his sphere was already useless and when he captured him for the first time he needed him to command some battle. And the Massassi that killed the Sith Lords during the fight of Kressh vs Sadow before the Hyperspace War started ? I guess they didn't think about the Massassi being loyal to Sadow or do you think they would have used them to attack Sadow in this case ?



Please watch TPM and ROTS again. Maul hit Qui-Gon with the hilt of his lightsaber and then put the blade through his abdomen. Not much acrobatics there...and Obi-Wan as well as Qui-Gon both were form IV practioners which is by far the most acrobating way of fighting.
And how could Mace have attacked Sidious. He had Agen in his way so he couldn't do it directly and when Sidious attacked him and Kit, Sidious was utilizing the lack of space in his favour. I don't see him taking at least Kit Fisto down that easily in a "normal" duel.



But the Rebels did win in the end and had control over several worlds directly or indirectly supporting them. So obviously Sidious couldn't control the entire Republic even with the giant military forces he had.



How was Gav's betrayal Naga's fault ? Could he sense Gav's thoughts while producing massive illusions on Coruscant and prevent his meditation sphere getting attacked ? Could he foresee that Gav would run away from the battle he sended him to because his sister showing up ? And logic ? Well...if you want to punish somebody what would be better than forcing him to attack his own beloved planet and watching it getting destroyed ?



*marks date on the calendar*

1. Given the bad luck Leia and Luke have had in many areas, not to mention his curse on Anakin Solo...The storm seemed more a result of the ritual rather than an intention of it.

2. I don't think calling on the light in the way to block someone is what that was referring to...that generally has more effect and flashy lights than tossing him into a shelf. The whole wound thing wasn't sometihng that could be learned or taught. It was the same as what happened with the Exile.

3. That line of Kun doesn't really imply "Mwahahaha, I'm betraying you." NAdd was drunk on the thought of having flesh again and got caught off guard.

4. I'll find TUF later

5. Even if they don't prevent them from being defeated, they give a booster....remember Kreia talking about Sion on Korriban?

6. I was more referring to when he locked him in the then VERY useless sphere....and I was more referring to after the Hyperspace war, not the ones that killed Horak and Dol

7. By the time Maul preformed the coup de grace, Qui was exhausted...if he hadn't been, I doubt that potshot would've succeeded. And Kit blocked several times feebly before being cut down.

8. by ROTJ, the Republic wasn't doing too well and the Imperial presence controlled much of the Galaxy. The strike on Endor was intended to wipe out the Imperial leaders.

9. I'm just saying: Sadow shouldn't have put Gav in a command position without loyal Sith AND Massassi around...and not put in charge of the attack on Koros Major

2. Lightsnake is right here, this technique could not be learned. Kreia says it couldn't be. What Kreia did however was not normal for her, she still manipulated something that does not have the force through the force to create the effect she did. I don't know but its damned impressive. Anyways the technique could not have been learned or created by the ancient Sith... something that does the same perhaps, but never something like that.

5. You are to weak to defeat him there because he absorbs the force energy of those places. As you might recall all Jedi Masters went to places where they could hide in the force. Korriban, Telos, Onderon, Dantooine, Katarr... Korriban is powerful with the force because like Nai said there is a lot of the force there.

Just wanted to clear those things up, for the rest have fun with the debate I sure as hell am reading it

I don't know why you guys make this brain surgery. During DN Luke had not reached his true potential. He does that in NJO and at full potential is the only time luke would tie or take Ragnos.

You sure you don't mean DE? Cause DN is after NJO I think. (Or a later/latest part of it).

DE is like 13 years BEFORE the start of NJO.

DN is AFTER NJO. Right after.

Yes that was what I ment.

Well then my bad...

Sooo, who wins? Ragnos or DN Luke?