Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Setting: Star Forge Main Level.

I don't know for sure. If this is DN Kyp, he may have a chance. NJO Kyp controlled a black hole, just as Luke did, and by DN has an additional 6 years of training.

What is with NJO and black holes?

DP

Well anyway if he controled a black hole I supose he would win.

Yeah, so he's gonna make one appear before Revan saber rapes him?

Originally posted by Ianus
Yeah, so he's gonna make one appear before Revan saber rapes him?

Good point a black hole would be pretty useless in a fight... and hell seeing as everyone in NJO seems to be able to do it why should Revan not be able to

IF Kyp can use the blackhole instantly in combat without KOing himself he would win.

Don't see that happening.

Dunno, probably Revan due to more knowledge of the force.

Kyp did kill a Levithan(an Ancient Sith Warbeast) that even mutiple Ancient Jedi had an extremely hard time taking down.

Yeah, and Revan killed two terentateks in a small chamber, the likes of which killed a Qel-Droma and his friends.

Leviathans as far as I can tell we FAR more capable than Tarentateks. Kyp also did this before DN, which he is a good bit stronger in.

Prove this for me.

Most likly Kyp would win because he is from Post ROTJ and all characters after RoTJ are made but suck ass writers and loosers. Controling a Black Hole OMFG...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Leviathans as far as I can tell we FAR more capable than Tarentateks. Kyp also did this before DN, which he is a good bit stronger in.

The twilek guy on dantooine said Terenteks were the worst of the beasts bred by the dark side.

Janus, Leviathans were stated as "living superweapons". This was by the people who fought and defeated (maybe) Tulak and (almost certainly) Ajunta.

Veneficus, it's really not that far out there. What the Ancient Sith did with stars is actually more impressive.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Janus, Leviathans were stated as "living superweapons". This was by the people who fought and defeated (maybe) Tulak and (almost certainly) Ajunta.

Veneficus, it's really not that far out there. What the Ancient Sith did with stars is actually more impressive.

The Ancient Sith while still overpowered make more sense to me to be that way. Their like the Barons of the Dark Side and really the entire destroying a star is debatable since Naga did use the element of technology to destroy the star along with his Force abilities.

I want you to in depth prove to me that Leviathans are stronger and more dangerous than two terentateks. And be sure to include the methods which Kyp used to destroy one.

You brought the creature up. Substantiate.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Janus, Leviathans were stated as "living superweapons". This was by the people who fought and defeated (maybe) Tulak and (almost certainly) Ajunta.

Veneficus, it's really not that far out there. What the Ancient Sith did with stars is actually more impressive.

Controlling a black hole is FAR more impressive than blowing up a star, completely different levels of power.

Do you have any idea the mass of a black hole? Its so great that even light cannot escape its pull... now controling a black hole is crazy compared to blowing up a star using a ship to do the job.

Janus, I can't, because it hasn't been written yet(for the Leviathans, other than what I have already given you) and I don't have the comics saying how Kyp killed one, I have read that he did. There was nothing on how the battle went.

Veneficus, believe me, I have at least as much of an idea of the mass of a block hole as you do. The mass of a black hole is the same as that of the star it came from. The reason light cannot escape is because the same amount of mass(and therefor same amount of gravitatational energy to overcome) is much more concentrated. Naga had to control the same amount, if not a greater amount of energy, it was just more spread out.

But in a duel... how does anything you've said (And indeed, none of it relates to saber combat or anything) mean Kyp wins?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Janus, I can't, because it hasn't been written yet(for the Leviathans, other than what I have already given you) and I don't have the comics saying how Kyp killed one, I have read that he did. There was nothing on how the battle went.

Veneficus, believe me, I have at least as much of an idea of the mass of a block hole as you do. The mass of a black hole is the same as that of the star it came from. The reason light cannot escape is because the same amount of mass(and therefor same amount of gravitatational energy to overcome) is much more concentrated. Naga had to control the same amount, if not a greater amount of energy, it was just more spread out.

Glentract your post is so fallacious I think you have to be joking.

That was quite an effective argument, GV.

Janus, the Levithans were designed as War Mounts to charge into battle and kill Jedi. Kyp was able to overcome one of these, which I take as an indication of power, moreso than killing two tarentateks.

I am looking at the picture of one charging into battle(it's more in the background really) and it is huge. It's over twenty times taller than the humans and has a massive body. I don't see how a Tarentatek could hit anything but it's leg( I am also baffled as to how Kyp defeated one. I mean, it HUGE!). Unfortunately, I can't find the picture online to show it to you.

Well, when the details are forthcoming, we'll talk.

Go to the store and pick up the New Essential Guide to Chronolgy. It's easily over a hundred feet tall.

So was an AT-AT walker.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6830/0leviathan3bg4zr.th.jpg

I found one, but this isn't the pic I was talking about. It looks a lot smaller in this pic.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6830/0leviathan3bg4zr.th.jpg

I found one, but this isn't the pic I was talking about. It looks a lot smaller in this pic.

Holy shit! That thing is frigging huge! And Kyp just goes ahead and defeats it like that? Goddamn NJO...

It's actually pre-NJO.

That thing is huge. But I'm curious to see how he beat it.

Agreed. There are other ways of defeating an enemy. It's not always a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6830/0leviathan3bg4zr.th.jpg

I found one, but this isn't the pic I was talking about. It looks a lot smaller in this pic.

Wow, I had no idea it was THAT big..

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That was quite an effective argument, GV.



"Veneficus, believe me, I have at least as much of an idea of the mass of a block hole as you do. The mass of a black hole is the same as that of the star it came from."

Initially yes, however black holes continue to gain mass depending on the availibility. Many black holes have been measured to be hundreds of millions of times more massive than our sun...blow

10 billion times the mass of our sun (Heres a nice one for you Glentract.)






"The reason light cannot escape is because the same amount of mass(and therefor same amount of gravitatational energy to overcome) is much more concentrated. Naga had to control the same amount, if not a greater amount of energy, it was just more spread out."

Okay first lets assume the mass of the black hole happens to be congruent with the mass of the star, even then manipulating it would still take FAR more power than what Sadow did. All Naga Sadow did was blow it up, he didnt manipulate it in its full form and move it, Im guessing all he did was move things around in the core causing it to go boom..Thats if he even did it himself, Im being told it was his ship that did it for him. As I have explained to manipulate even a small black hole would be the equivalant of moving a star and to my knowledge the ancient sith have never done that thus the feat in NJO was let me emphasize again FAR more impressive.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"Veneficus, believe me, I have at least as much of an idea of the mass of a block hole as you do. The mass of a black hole is the same as that of the star it came from."

Initially yes, however black holes continue to gain mass depending on the availibility. Many black holes have been measured to be hundreds of millions of times more massive than our sun...blow

10 billion times the mass of our sun (Heres a nice one for you Glentract.)

I have actually read this article before and it is not useful for several reasons.

First, "A team of astronomers have found a colossal black hole so ancient, they're not sure how it had enough time to grow to its current size, about 10 billion times the mass of the Sun. "

Further down in the article, it says, "It really is too far away to do a direct orbital measurement to help determine its mass," Romani said, adding that he and his colleagues had to estimate the mass based on a quantitative method that includes measuring particle velocity and the Doppler shift of its infrared emission lines. "The best thing to do is study it in a broader region of the spectrum, to get more emission lines.""

They don't know for sure just how big it is.

Also, notice this, "Very massive black holes like this are so rare, that one should really be a little suspicious at first," Romani said. "

Are you telling me that you really think that BOTH Luke and Kyp controlled ones that rare?

I hate to kill the Luke the black hole argmument(I am a major fan of Luke. I'd be a fanboy if I didn't keep a real level head about it), but Luke and Kyp didn't control real black holes. I have been re-reading the NJO series and I realized(I was in a state of shock and awe when it happened) that Luke and Kyp controlled artificial black holes. These black holes were much smaller than natural ones and therefor much weaker.

The star argument actually is FAR more impressive. We know that the power of the black hole can't exceed the power of the ship and we know that the black hole's of the ship they controlled are near equal to the power of an ISD. The reactor of an ISD is equal to the output of a star.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was stated as the most powerful ship ever(this was as of the moment it was first built.)

The mass of a star is 198,892,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Yes, that is a lot.

The core comprises ~60% of the suns mass. That is 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Still, that is a lot.

To move that at a rate of 1 meter per-second would require 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of energy.

The energy out put of an entire star is LESS than that(remember that the energy output of one star is that maximum for any ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer).

Incase you are wondering what the energy output of a star(the sun) is, here you go, 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 30.9158549

So, even if the star was moved at a measily one meter persecond, it would require the power of thirty Imperial Star Destroyers to move it. Since NO ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer was able to harness the power of even a single star, it is impossible for any ship prior to the launch of the Executor to produce that energy on it's own.

Remeber that the following equations use a speed of only one meter per second to as the rate that the star was moving at. The true number is thousands of times higher than that, as it was moving faster than the Republic ships could get away at.

Remember that it takes ~31 times the energy a star releases to move the star's core at one meter per second. The ship that produced the black holes that Luke and Kyp controlled has a generating capacity equal to one star. Therefor, what Naga did is 31 times more difficult that what Luke and Kyp did. Or is it...

The highest percentage of the ships total energy that any main stream Imperial Ship put into it's shields was 65%.

That means that best case for Luke and Kyp, their feat of controlling a black hole is 47.69 times easier than what Naga did, assuming Naga only moved the star at 1 meter per second.

Proof: 31 / .65 = 47.69

Remember that the above has assumed all best case senario's for Luke and Kyp AND put a massive limitation on Naga's power by saying that he only moved the star one meter per second. The true speed is thousands of times above this, but is an unknown thousands of times, so we will again give Luke and Kyp best case and say 1,000 meters per second.

(mass of star)119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 * (speed of core's movement assuming best case for Luke and Kyp)1,000 meters per second = 11,933,520,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

(energy required to move star at in a best case senario for Luke and Kyp)11,933,520,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / (amount of energy required for Luke and Kyp's task)5,938,461,540,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 2,009.53057

Naga Sadow's greatest feat is 2,009 times more impressive than Luke's or Kyp's(defeating the Leviathan may actually be more impressive) even when we assume a best case senario for Luke and Kyp.


Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"The reason light cannot escape is because the same amount of mass(and therefor same amount of gravitatational energy to overcome) is much more concentrated. Naga had to control the same amount, if not a greater amount of energy, it was just more spread out."

Okay first lets assume the mass of the black hole happens to be congruent with the mass of the star, even then manipulating it would still take FAR more power than what Sadow did. All Naga Sadow did was blow it up, he didnt manipulate it in its full form and move it, Im guessing all he did was move things around in the core causing it to go boom..Thats if he even did it himself, Im being told it was his ship that did it for him. As I have explained to manipulate even a small black hole would be the equivalant of moving a star and to my knowledge the ancient sith have never done that thus the feat in NJO was let me emphasize again FAR more impressive.

I believe the above math will sway you into my line of thinking. Please double-check my math, if you please. I hate to admit it, but Luke can't compare.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I believe the above math will sway you into my line of thinking. Please double-check my math, if you please. I hate to admit it, but Luke can't compare.

I read through it, I didnt have time to check on all the math though Ill just assume you wouldnt just pull numbers out of the air.



Im assuming the quantitive method they used is fairly accurate, therefore although they dont have the exact mass there most likely in the ballpark.





Ofcourse not, I used this black hole as an example of how ridiculously massive they can become. Black holes more around the mass of 100,000,000 suns are quite common.



I havent actually read the material that had Luke manipulating a black hole. Ive always been told it was a real one but if what you say is true then forgot my previous arguments as it seems you have effectively invalidated them.



I havent given an indepth look at your math, maybe I will later, but it seems your calculations are based off Naga Sadow moving the entire star. To my knowledge Naga didnt move the star he simply blew it up, we dont know the method he used to cause the detonation but no way it would require the energy needed to actually move the whole thing.

No, my calculations are based on Naga moving just the core. We do know how it was destroyed. When the mass of the core was removed, there is not enough gravity to hold back the upper layers, causing the star to go nova.

I would also like a source for the black holes having an average mass of 100,000,000 stars being common(purely out of personal intrest). It doesn't make sense, because there is no where for that mass to come from.

Edit: I hate to smash Luke and Kyp even further, but is there any evidence that they even controlled all of the gravitational energy of a black hole?

Revan. Don't know alot about Kyp but that he's Luke's strongest student. Can someone at least reasonably intelligent tell me how Kyp's power compares to, say, Yoda's?

Kyp defeated a Leviathan, which I doubt Yoda could do. Kyp also was said to rival Luke in lightsaber skill and force powers by this point, which may be so, as he did replicate Luke's black hole feat.

Wait wait, these Leviathans coexisted with the Ancient Sith? Hmm, damn continuity issues.

The Ancient Sith created them(maybe mutated something else, maybe made them from scratch) to use as war mounts. They were gone for thousands of years until one was found somewhere and Kyp went to go kill it. Where's the continuty problem?

I still want to know how Kyp kills one.

Originally posted by Ianus
I still want to know how Kyp kills one.

Same here.

Me too, but there are no comic stores with SW comics where I live.

What comic is it again? I might pick it up.

Originally posted by Ianus
What comic is it again? I might pick it up.

While your at it get ahold of that comic that has the vision of Revan. I am curious to see what happens.

Good idea.

Jedi Academy - Leviathan 1-4.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Ancient Sith created them(maybe mutated something else, maybe made them from scratch) to use as war mounts. They were gone for thousands of years until one was found somewhere and Kyp went to go kill it. Where's the continuty problem?

naga sadow could have created the tarentatek on yavin 4(where sadow conducted numerous experiments and created numerous dark creatures).
exar kun destroys "giant monster" with the power of the sith amulet that is given to him by freedon nadd.

What do Tarentatek's have to do with this?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What do Tarentatek's have to do with this?

Good question..

This is crazy. I just found out that the comics take place 12 A.B.Y. and Kyp started training under Luke in 11 A.B.Y.

Wow. Granted, Kyp did train with that old witch in Kessel for something like 4 or 5 years, but still. I figured it was something like a year before NJO starts, not that early.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What do Tarentatek's have to do with this?

you wrote this, my friend:
"The Ancient Sith created them(maybe mutated something else, maybe made them from scratch) to use as war mounts. They were gone for thousands of years until one was found somewhere and Kyp went to go kill it. Where's the continuty problem?"

I was refering to the Levaithans. Please read the previous post prior to responding.

Just some advice, if you never post, no one can ever tell how dumb you are.

Glentract, be respectful. He's a hell of a lot better than some people who roam through here.

And don't forget you're the one who argued that we can't use movie canon in a debate.

I said that we can't compare lightsaber fights from OT to PT, not that we can't used movie canon.

Janus, go read his post in the "which character" thread in the EU section.

BTW, that was a mean sig you made.

why do u attack me in every thread, glentract?

go to this thread in ep 1-3 forum:Who thinks Mace Windu died
sum1 is seriously argueing that mace kille darth maul.

Attack you in every thread? I seem to remember standing up for you once.

oOoO..i hafta see it again.

I said that we can't compare lightsaber fights from OT to PT, not that we can't used movie canon.

You said we can't use movie fight scenes as evidence because they are in your opinion "too inconsistant". This totally rolls over and cocks the idea of movei canon being the highest level canon. If you can't use it as evidence, nothing else can be used either. The entire EU is branched off of the movies, not the other way around.

You basically made the mother of all **** ups trying to prove your case for Luke and it bit you in the ass. Admit this and move on.


Janus, go read his post in the "which character" thread in the EU section.

I did. I have also seen you make some pretty outlandish claims over the last few months, too. But you sure go out of your way to bash anyone you have a week's seniority over, whether they deserve it or not.


BTW, that was a mean sig you made.

No, it was hilarious. I couldn't believe you tried to argue against movie canon, so I had to make a sig to remind myself that it really happened.

No doubt movie is the highest level of canon, but we shouldn't use movie inconsistency/error or choreography limitations as a determinant for a fight, that much I'll agree with.

Janus, please notice that in the moives, all of the Imperial Officers have the same rank on their uniform. Are you telling me Piett and some random Imperial Officer are the same rank?

Originally posted by Illustrious
No doubt movie is the highest level of canon, but we shouldn't use movie inconsistency/error or choreography limitations as a determinant for a fight, that much I'll agree with.

Well, if it's a straight up foul up in the movie making I can see, but there aren't any choreography limitations for ROTJ and for a lesser extent ESB. ANH is a different case, because the wooden props used for the fight were fragile and flimsy and as a result the duel was.... pathetic.

But when you have two pieces of evidence from movies... say, Anakin from the PT and LUke from the OT, how can you say Luke wins without citing any OT evidence? How can you simply say "OMg, well there were technical limitations back then..." No, there weren't. If there is a choreographical/technical limitation that is so impeding that Luke would be quite simply crippled because of it, you need to prove up, Glentract.

IN this case, PT Anakin simply blows OT Luke away with more studying and understanding of the Force, more speed, more experience with lightsaber-to-lightsaber training, and a higher force potential just for starters. The only way I've seen pro-Luke people argue is "Omg the choreography was like am amputee on a breakdancing floor. If it was made today it'd be Kung fuish!'

Well, it's not made today and to argue something that clearly doesn't exist for the purpose of debate is assinine. The OT exists. Movie canon exists. Yes, there may be small inconsistancies. You've pointed out the military ranks apparently being the same. It does happen. But to rule out every single OT fight scene and then what? Just imagine Luke is better? Ridiculous!

Originally posted by Ianus
Well, if it's a straight up foul up in the movie making I can see, but there aren't any choreography limitations for ROTJ and for a lesser extent ESB. ANH is a different case, because the wooden props used for the fight were fragile and flimsy and as a result the duel was.... pathetic.

But when you have two pieces of evidence from movies... say, Anakin from the PT and LUke from the OT, how can you say Luke wins without citing any OT evidence? How can you simply say "OMg, well there were technical limitations back then..." No, there weren't. If there is a choreographical/technical limitation that is so impeding that Luke would be quite simply crippled because of it, you need to prove up, Glentract.

IN this case, PT Anakin simply blows OT Luke away with more studying and understanding of the Force, more speed, more experience with lightsaber-to-lightsaber training, and a higher force potential just for starters. The only way I've seen pro-Luke people argue is "Omg the choreography was like am amputee on a breakdancing floor. If it was made today it'd be Kung fuish!'

Well, it's not made today and to argue something that clearly doesn't exist for the purpose of debate is assinine. The OT exists. Movie canon exists. Yes, there may be small inconsistancies. You've pointed out the military ranks apparently being the same. It does happen. But to rule out every single OT fight scene and then what? Just imagine Luke is better? Ridiculous!

I don't want to say that Luke would be able to take ROTS Anakin (by any logic...Anakin had more training, more fighting action, more force potential) but there were many limitations in OT times.

a)
They weren't able to create complete CGI enviroment and complete CGI characters in the early 80s. If you have a look at the OT many things that were simply computer animation in the CGI were done with models in the OT. Hell...in ESB they used stop-motion for the ATAT's. There was no way to create really fast lightsaber fights like those we have seen in the PT.

b)
They didn't care much about the lightsaber fighting - not nearly as much as they did for the PT. In the PT they had the actors training for weeks or even months and Mark Hamill didn't have that much training exactly. When he handles that lightsaber he looks like the sword fighting noob he really is while the people in the PT look like as if they can just walk out of the set and kick some Samurai around.

c)
There was a lack of fighting choreography in the OT. Simply compare the fighting scenes and the entire movements. In the OT they simply hit on each others lightsaber and do a few steps back and forth. The most impressive movement in all those fights was Luke kicking Vader down the stairs in ROTJ.

In conclusion I'm pretty sure that those fights would have looked much more impressive if they would have been filmed today but nonetheless Luke would get kicked by most of the PT Jedi because they simply had more training and more fighting experience.

Yeah, but obviously you don't get the point: we can't make biased judgments (As Glentract often does when it comes to Luke Skywalker... Hell, come to think if it every damn person who rolls through here has a severe case of "OMg bias" and just assume things. Glentract was basically telling me at one point that ROTJ Luke could beat AOTC Anakin. His evidence? Limitation of choreography.

Wait, come to think of it... that WOULDN'T be evidence, would it?

I could just as easily say Revan takes the entire PT council because he was uber and the games just couldn't show how uber he was.

See the faulty logic behind that? We have certain evidence. You cannot just make up evidence or go on a hunch (Read: bias). Luke was nothing impressive compared to any PT fighter. That's what we got, and there aren't any books or any other concrete form of EU during or before ROTJ who can prove the case. Hence, ROTJ Luke < AOTC Anakin. Case closed.

I -really- don't see what's so hard to admit about that. I mean, people don't have a stake in an imaginary fight... I would hope.

Janus, I have admitted that when it comes to ROTJ Luke I am a major fan(I wouldn't call myself a fanboy, because I have used evidence to back up my claims on mutiple occasions. If you want, I'll give an overview here.

Seriously though, how can AOTC Anakin be better than Luke? Luke defeated OT Vader, who, although is impared, is a lot better than that.

And Janus, you still don't seem to understand my point on lightsaber seens. Notice how well Anakin and Obi-wan fight on Mustafar and then compare that to how they fight on the Invinsible Hand. There is a dramatic increase in fighting ability in less than a week. I don't see how this is so, creating an inconsistency.

Janus, I have admitted that when it comes to ROTJ Luke I am a major fan(I wouldn't call myself a fanboy, because I have used evidence to back up my claims on mutiple occasions. If you want, I'll give an overview here.

I've seen your evidence. You know I ain't the hardest person in the world to convince, but you didn't once come close.


Seriously though, how can AOTC Anakin be better than Luke? Luke defeated OT Vader, who, although is impared, is a lot better than that.

Unrelated feats. You argue these all the time. Take a historical example: If Akechi Mitsuhide, a samurai of considerable reputation, is killed by a peasant with a wooden spear, does this peasant become greater than all those Mitsuhide has bested in combat? No. I could see if it was a decisive, clear and emotionally untangled battle, but it wasn't. Vader was not out to kill his son, only to turn him. And he very nearly succeeded. You want to talk inconsistancies, explain to me how Vader buckled under Luke's unskilled assault, yet in ANH he can lift a grown man a foot off of the floor? Explain that to me aside from my own explanation, which is that Vader was luring Luke into using the darkside to turn him.


And Janus, you still don't seem to understand my point on lightsaber seens. Notice how well Anakin and Obi-wan fight on Mustafar and then compare that to how they fight on the Invinsible Hand. There is a dramatic increase in fighting ability in less than a week. I don't see how this is so, creating an inconsistency.

I have already explained this to you. Obi-Wan versus Anakin is faster because its one on one and the two are close to the same level. Hell, they know one another very well. This is not the case with two on one versus Dooku. Look at the bottom gif: see how close they are standing to one another? They can't move as quick and openly as they did on Mustafar. This isn't skill that's been upped; it's a difference in fighting circumstances. It also shows how two jedi side by side can be held off by a better opponent.

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/8522/anakinobiavatar6kw3bv.gif

There's their initial assault on Dooku. Totally ineffective. They could not move quickly forward because of one another and because of the way Dooku (and partially the area) was dictating their ability.

Now look at Mustafar:

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/5222/dueloffates21ab0ac.gif

Do you see the difference? This isn't inconsistancy no matter how much you'd wish it were; it's different strokes for different folks. No inconsistancy on the level you're saying it is.

Convinced yet?

I never did get a response to this.

I'm not going to argue on this. Over ROTJ Luke, we need to agree to disagree as mutiple post have gotten us no where.

That's sad that you can't even give me the effort, Glentract. You believe so strongly, and yet you can prove nothing.

I'll definately keep that in mind the next time you argue ROTJ Luke.

Whatever. I'm a little drained right now do to studying for finals and don't feel like making long post(just to suit you, I'll give you one later to night).

Then when you have time, make an argument. I don't think you have one though, and what I noted above pretty much shows that.

And it's important to like and respect your favorite characters but when you grasp at straws and make clearly fallacious arguments you need to step back and reevaluate your level of bias.

You've been making it a point to call out everyone lately with your own arguments and you've went round for round with IKC or something you didn't even have the source material to, and yet you refuse to reply on this. I just find that ironic.

Well if Revan is near Exar Kun's power, then I don't see why he can't beat Kyp.

Not trying to change the subject, but how did we get started on AOTC Anakin vs. Luke?

zOMG! I still got the GL quote!11!!

I'll write up a response tomorrow. All this crap with IKC(although I do appreciate that he likes Kun) is taking to much of my time right now.

I think it has been established that Kyp Durron would waste Revan.

Originally posted by Veneficus
I think it has been established that Kyp Durron would waste Revan.

Now I just have to prove ROTJ Luke could do the same thing. lol

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Now I just have to prove ROTJ Luke could do the same thing. lol
Lol

I think Dark Lord would change your view on Vader, Nai.

"Luke isn't better than AotC Anakin because he simply can't be better than AotC Anakin" - rock solid argument there Borbarad.

You again? I thought we got rid of you.

why do you guys keep saying stufff like that i was never bad enough to get banned

Ooh, you have no idea. All you ever did was flame, and I guess you're back to that again.

look faunus don't try to argue with me, we both know i am way to clever for you.

Lmfao! That was amusing. I think I'm going to hang around here and get some kicks out of your sheer idiocy.

This fool again?

ohh no you really gunned me there didnt you.

Why are you here? Do you have to flame people for no reason? Do you not get hugged at home? Eh? Stupid kid. Go away. STFU.

The last of the Luke fanboys has abondoned his ways.

I have to concede that Luke isn't as good as I have said he is.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The last of the Luke fanboys has abondoned his ways.

I have to concede that Luke isn't as good as I have said he is.

Not by ROTJ, anyways. Later? He apparently gets very good, and it's determinable.

And certainly my arguments have nothing to do with my liking or disliking of the characters involved. (ROTJ Luke is kickass and tromps all over AOTC "I luv teh s4nd!" Annie in the personality department). You just gotta learn to knuckle down and admit the obvious sometimes or risk looking REALLY stubborn.

I read somewhere that Kyp killed a Leviathan by calling a Force Lightning. Isn't that impressive? but as for him fighting Revan, im quite sure that Kyp's not in the same level with Revan, at least not yet. I dont really know just how potentially powerful Kyp is, does he have the potential to be at Revan's power? can anyone tell me?

No way. Kyp's great but he is not that good. He is in the top 5 in the NJO.

Kyp is second in the NJO. Kyp could take Revan from the evidence I have seen and presented(mostly presented). Revan has never shown power on Kyp's scale(defeating a Leviathan and controlling a black hole) and Kyp also is speculated to have as much force potential as Luke. NJO Luke pretty much kills Revan, so Kyp has the potential to do the same thing. Note that is DN Kyp, who is NJO Kyp plus 6 more years of training.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Kyp also is speculated to have as much force potential as Luke.

Suspected by who? You? Glentract, he's powerful, but nowhere near Luke's level.

Three words: beat by Vong.

Three more words: Luke killed seven.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Suspected by who? You? Glentract, he's powerful, but nowhere near Luke's level.

Three words: beat by Vong.

Three more words: Luke killed seven.

Read the books. Suspected by the actual characters.

I can't remember which book Kyp lost in. Can you tell me which on it was?

If you're referring to Luke and some other character's who doubted Skywalker's abilities, erm, they were proved wrong in TUF. Kyp was defeated by a Vong Slayer. Luke slaughtered seven, and incapacitated an eighth so that Jacen could kill it. Hell, Jacen and Jaina killed one apiece themselves.

Glentract are you mad. Kyp is nowhere near that great. Revan would actually take him with ease. He would take Luke pretty easily let alone Kyp Durron.

Kyp yeah, I don't know about Luke though...the bastard's pretty over-powered.

Meh. I'm not saying Kyp would lose to Revan. But I doubt that Kyp is as good Luke.

So is Revan. It would be close but Revan would take him.

Can you give me a general page number of when he lost?

Originally posted by kingkman
So is Revan. It would be close but Revan would take him.

Prove that.

Glentract, you have yet to prove that Kyp would win, and still haven't addressed why Kyp lost to -- or at least wasn't capable of defeating -- a Vong Slayer.

Re-read it. Kyp lost to four(4) of them. The Slayers also had the element of surprise because Kyp(or any Jedi) had never fought against an amphistaff that long before. Also note that this was after Kyp had already been fighting in long battle.

Aright. So he was defeated by four Vong Slayers, while he was tired. Okay. . .

Luke owned seven, eight Vong Slayers, while Jacen and Jaina took one apiece. And this was after they'd fought through the mothership, after they'd slaughtered dozens, and for Luke, hundreds of Vong warriors. Granted, this new information is more realistic, but still puts Kyp a good deal below Luke, and not that far above Jacen or Jaina. The two of them were able to hold off two or three Slayers at a time, while Luke took the brunt of the attack. And when he finished with his, he pwn3d the others.

Face it. Kyp is good, but he'll never be Luke.

You have to put it more into perspective though. Kyp had no idea what to expect. Remember that these guys used longer amphistaffs then had ever been seen before. Luke, Jaina, and Jacen all knew what to expect from these guys. Also note that Luke has a shard of the Kaiburr Crystal in his lightsaber which makes it burn much more powerfully then a regular lightsaber(an more effieciently too). The biggest problem with defeating Slayers was because of their thick armor that Kyp couldn't cut through but Luke could.

You still haven't explained how Kyp can be weak if he controlled a black hole just like Luke did and killed the Leviathan with, according to second_coming27, force lightning.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Prove that.

I can't, neither can you. Nobody can prove anything. That's why we are debating. We are trying to make the other believe.

You have to provide evidence for what you are stating though, and you haven't done that.

Revan was able to defeat a really powerful Sith who was able to regenerate his health multiple times. That is a minor thing Revan did and Kyp never did anything as great as that.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You have to provide evidence for what you are stating though, and you haven't done that.

And the reason that I haven't provided evidence is because it's all so obvious that i didnt think i needed to.

I've already informed you that you need to, so hop to it.

Originally posted by kingkman
Revan was able to defeat a really powerful Sith who was able to regenerate his health multiple times. That is a minor thing Revan did and Kyp never did anything as great as that. Game notoriety.

Originally posted by kingkman
Revan was able to defeat a really powerful Sith who was able to regenerate his health multiple times. That is a minor thing Revan did and Kyp never did anything as great as that.

Who is to say Revan didn't regenerate from the Jedi too?

BTW, defeating the Leviathan and controlling a black hole are FAR more impressive than anything Revan has done.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Who is to say Revan didn't regenerate from the Jedi too?

BTW, defeating the Leviathan and controlling a black hole are FAR more impressive than anything Revan has done. Um, the Leviathon?

This:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9482/0leviathan3bg7te.jpg

He actually killed two of them, the first was a baby, then he killed the mother.

Kay, that was a link to virtually nowhere.

I fixed it.

Oh, Leviathon as in a species?

Yeah.

Hmm, never heard of them before, where they mentioned?

They are in the New Essentail Guide to Chronology(they were used as Ancient Sith Superweapons) and he fought them in the Leviathan Comis.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Who is to say Revan didn't regenerate from the Jedi too?

BTW, defeating the Leviathan and controlling a black hole are FAR more impressive than anything Revan has done.

Controlling a black is just extremely strong telekinesis and comics always exaggerate things. It would have probably made a Rancor look that big and deadly as-well. yet Revan far from his full potential was easily able to defeat one of those. he's a lot more intelligent than Kyp as-well. He would have found a way to defeat the leviathan even if it was through clever tactics.

No, because the comic isn't the only place we've seen a Leviathan from. It's really that big. Also note that it was considered a superweapon by Jedi Masters.

Kyp is extremely smart in the NJO and beyond. You have no proof that Revan is smart enough to have defeated a Leviathan. Like I said, you need proof.

BTW, the telekinesis required to control a black hole would allow Kyp to toss Revan into space with ease.

Firstly a force adept can resist telekinesis, revan would be able to resist it from Durron. If faced with the opportunity Revan would likely be able to do the same as would a lot of force adepts. In the NJO Kyp is extremely foolish and a terrible decision maker. He is not extremely smart. I don't have proof that Revan could defeat this Leviathan but i would be willing to bet a lot that in the situation he woiuld prevail. Also tell me where else a Leviathan appears in the Star Wars universe.

In the Hundred Year Darkness it was used as a superweapon against Jedi Masters.

BTW, Jedi and Sith can't resist telekinesis that is significantly more powerful then them. Kyps level of telekinesis is far beyond Revan's level of force resistance. Bye bye Revan, may the vacuum of space treat you well.

Glentract, again, you have no idea how Kyp defeated the Leviathan, other than the word of some no-name member of DTF. and if you're actually considering the fact that Kyp killed the beast with lightning, then it's not a fraction as good as you consider it to be.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Kyps level of telekinesis is far beyond Revan's level of force resistance. Bye bye Revan, may the vacuum of space treat you well.

Prove it

Face it Darth Durron, Kyp's accomplishments are just not as great as Revan's.

Uh-oh, I sense disorderly conduct beginning to manifest.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You have to put it more into perspective though. Kyp had no idea what to expect. Remember that these guys used longer amphistaffs then had ever been seen before. Luke, Jaina, and Jacen all knew what to expect from these guys. Also note that Luke has a shard of the Kaiburr Crystal in his lightsaber which makes it burn much more powerfully then a regular lightsaber(an more effieciently too). The biggest problem with defeating Slayers was because of their thick armor that Kyp couldn't cut through but Luke could.

It doesn't matter. If you think he's as good or better than Luke, he should have been able to own each of those Vong rather easily, with either Force or sword. Sure, Luke and his nephew and niece knew what to expect, but they'd still never fought a Slayer before.

And why should it matter if Luke had a Kaiburr crystal in his lightsaber or not? It allowed him to pierce the Vong easier, yes, but with strikes in the correct locations, Kyp should have been able to do that as well, or at the very least, defend himself from the Slayers' blows.

Lastly, if he has a greater control of the Force than Luke, why didn't he use the Force to simply crush the Slayers? Luke took one out of the fight with practically a no-look shot of 'lightning' in a spare second between brawls. Shouldn't Kyp have been able to, oh, toss them into the void of space? Or simply cause them to implode?



Did I ever say he was weak? Nope. Have you yet proven that his manipulation of a black hole would have any bearing in a close-quarters situation? No. And have you yet proven how Durron defeated the Leviathan? No. And don't try to pass of these ridiculous, completely unsupported claims as fact and expect anyone to believe you. If Kyp could have killed the Leviathan with lightning, then it would be a push-over, and its defeat would be nothing worth mentioning in these debates.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
It doesn't matter. If you think he's as good or better than Luke, he should have been able to own each of those Vong rather easily, with either Force or sword. Sure, Luke and his nephew and niece knew what to expect, but they'd still never fought a Slayer before.

Who ever said he is better then Luke? I said that he rivals Luke in power, not that he is better.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
And why should it matter if Luke had a Kaiburr crystal in his lightsaber or not? It allowed him to pierce the Vong easier, yes, but with strikes in the correct locations, Kyp should have been able to do that as well, or at the very least, defend himself from the Slayers' blows.

Kyp didn't know how long the Amphistaffs were. He actually got several hits in that would have killed a Slayer if it had been done by Luke's saber, but didn't because his is weaker.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Lastly, if he has a greater control of the Force than Luke, why didn't he use the Force to simply crush the Slayers? Luke took one out of the fight with practically a no-look shot of 'lightning' in a spare second between brawls. Shouldn't Kyp have been able to, oh, toss them into the void of space? Or simply cause them to implode?

Like I said, he isn't better then Luke, but he does rival him. If you knew anything about the NJO, you would know that you can't force push a Vong. They are outside of the Jedi spectrum of the force. Only Jacen was able to hurt them with force attacks other then lightning and whatever it was that Luke used against that one Vong. They can't be made to implode or anything like that. Why didn't Kyp use lightning on them? At this point the Jedi were still hesitent to use the Darkside.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Did I ever say he was weak? Nope. Have you yet proven that his manipulation of a black hole would have any bearing in a close-quarters situation? No. And have you yet proven how Durron defeated the Leviathan? No. And don't try to pass of these ridiculous, completely unsupported claims as fact and expect anyone to believe you. If Kyp could have killed the Leviathan with lightning, then it would be a push-over, and its defeat would be nothing worth mentioning in these debates.

You have no proof that he didn't kill the Leviathan and yet someone, who can't label a liar, says otherwise. We also know that they were considered superweapons by the people who defeated the Ancient Sith like Ajunta Pall.You have no basis for Kyp hasving used some special talent to defeat and you can't prove that they were weak because we know that they were designed to take on several Jedi Knights by themself.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Who ever said he is better then Luke? I said that he rivals Luke in power, not that he is better.

The term 'rivals' implies that he's actually in Luke's league. I don't think anyone's quite in Luke's league. Don't get me wrong; post-NJO Kyp and post-DN Jacen could very possibly stand up to Luke in a duel. But them defeating him is, well, out of the question.



So what? Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't know that Maul had a double-bladed lighstaber, but the former still managed to defeat him. If Kyp is as good as you claim, he should have been able to get past the longer amphistaff of the Slayer and repeatedly slash until its armor was destroyed. And don't try and tell me that their armor is completely lightsaber-proof. With enough strikes in the right area, anything can be broken, and that includes Slayer armor. Granted, Kyp's lightsaber isn't as powerful as Luke's -- props to Skywalker -- but if he's been able to replicate Luke's lightsaber speed, which managed to dazzle Jacen and Jaina.




If Luke could use a special Force attack to take out a Vong, why couldn't Kyp -- who according to you, is suspected by certain characters to be more powerful than Luke -- do the same? Unless perhaps Luke has greater power and mastery over the Force? But that's impossible. . .



You have no proof that he did kill the Leviathan the way that person said, and so I'll use your little excuse: burden of proof. Since you're trying to force the idea that Kyp completely overpowered and defeated a 30 foot-tall 'superweapon' down my throat, you're going to have to give me actual proof, not some completely unsupported claim. My opinion? Hold off -- meh. Hold on until you have the actual comic before you toss these amazingly absurd assumptions about.