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It could be many, but I say first and foremost, it's the parents, NOT the child.

Many times it's because the child is not being listened to. They feel they are not heard and then finally rebel...Most of children's lives they are told "How to feel, to think, or what not to"...Lots of shouldn'ts.....If more adults would ask the child the "Why's" and then explore that, instead of the "Don't"...There would be less rebellion in my opinion, and more free thinkers that would contribute to society...

Interesting, Deb.

Some children can be difficult however I tend to agree parents are much more difficult......I say good job Debbiejo I agree wholeheartedly!

Woo-hoo!
The post of the Year, Debs!
bandclapdrunkhappybdayjump

society

Society, Deano. How so?

Parents.

Kids.

This is a very insightful thread.

I will mildy disagree with you, Botankus, though I tend to agree with most of your responses from what I've read.

Im curious how many of the people that have responded so far do in fact HAVE children?

At any rate, the majority of the time how a child "tunrs out" is a direct reflection of the way he or she was raised. Please note I said majority because there are always exceptions to the rule.

Great question, Jedi Priestess. I suppose I'm being slightly hypocritcal then since I am not one (a parent) myself. However, I do get to voice an opinion, I believe, since I'm at the opposite side of the spectrum, and feel that when most people say they think I'm pretty cool cat, that I divert the accolades to my parents.

Originally posted by BobbyD
It could be many, but I say first and foremost, it's the parents, NOT the child.

Its the TV and there neighborhood usually.

Hmm, definitely big influences...discounted them. But, you don't think parents are the biggest influences, Jacopex?

I don reely think parents are fault to all this. Yo, I lived with my mom and she wuz the only one who payed for me and my sisters. We lived in bad houses aqnd all that. Come on money is a problem these days. They get the bad influence from school and from the streetz. But i try not to become a bum or somethin like that, i have fututre.

make sure you dont type that way on your resume, mkay?

Originally posted by JacopeX
I don reely think parents are fault to all this. Yo, I lived with my mom and she wuz the only one who payed for me and my sisters. We lived in bad houses aqnd all that. Come on money is a problem these days. They get the bad influence from school and from the streetz. But i try not to become a bum or somethin like that, i have fututre.


I have yet to read about a time when money isn't a problem.........times don't change only people do........or do they...........

People don't really change either, or at least not any more after 30, Soleran.

Jacopex, if your mother hadn't done all that she has done thus far, which is I'm gathering a lot from your circumstances, then she would have been the one to blame. However, the fact is she has done a lot for you and your siblings, despite the poor surroundings and negative influences.

Kudos to you for believing that you have a future. Stick with your goals, my man.

LOL I am 30 haha people change all the time it was a joke. People change all the time. Values change as children develop and their enviroment has more to do with this the older they get and able to form their own opinions and views!~

I don't know, Soleran. Perhaps, it's just been my experiences, or maybe I don't know any better. But, you did refer to changing people as children. Are you not an adult when you're 30?

Checkmate?

Originally posted by BobbyD
I don't know, Soleran. Perhaps, it's just been my experiences, or maybe I don't know any better. But, you did refer to changing people as children. Are you not an adult when you're 30?

Checkmate?

Were we playing chess here?

No, I stink at chess. Nor do I have the patience.

We can talk about kids being responsible and parents being responsible, but really, the fault lies equally on the sholders of both. There are times that every effort made by the parent is refused or rejected by the childs descisions and actions. And there are times that despite bad parenting and poor situations, the child beats the odds and comes out on top. But, when you ask the question, "Bad children, who's responsible?" you have to define the question a bit better. To what kind of child are you reffering? Gang members in their teens? Or, maybe the fat little bastard that's screaming on the floor in the next aisle over? Are you talking about kids that bite other kids in school, or an 18 year old that shoots his girlfriends parents?

Originally posted by BobbyD
Society, Deano. How so?

if the system didnt cause people to be stressed out zombies, we woudnt be in the mess we are today.

...fat little bastard that's screaming on the floor in the next aisle over

That was great capt fantastic. Funny, but wrong.

Regarding your examples, does it really matter what child it is, or where their path takes them? I refuse to blame the child. Learning starts right from day 1 out of the womb into the catcher's glove being held by his father. The parents are most importantly, the individuals responsible for nurturing and raising their child. If it doesn't start there, that's when you have problems down the road.

True...It's how the child is responded to....Many parents aren't skilled in in these kinds of communications.....

Of course there will be children with chemical disorders and such, there are always exception like that.

Parents are responsible for how they raise their child, but once the child reaches a certain age it clearly has the mind to make choice as to whether "Be bad, or be responsible." That choice can go either way regardless of great parents.

-AC

Originally posted by Deano
if the system didnt cause people to be stressed out zombies, we woudnt be in the mess we are today.


people cause people to be stressed out zombies.......no one can make you feel anything you don't want!

"No one can make you feel anything you don't want to feel"....CORRECT!

Funny, how when I wanted to veer down the wrong path, or steer in the wrong direction, my dad gave me a dose of good old fashioned European discipline. Today, what he did, would be considered child abuse. You know what though....straightened my ass out.

Yeah, my dad the same way.....


Run debbiejo run........run....run away.....

Parents. Period.

if the parents cant control the child then the children is born to be a screw up. disipline is essential

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah, my dad the same way.....


Run debbiejo run........run....run away.....

Hey, a while back you said your dad did this: ranting
You never said he did this: mad

Blaming the parents continually is the reason why a lot of these problems aren't solved.

Blaming the people who aren't always responsible, all the time, solves nothing.

-AC

Originally posted by botankus
Hey, a while back you said your dad did this: ranting
You never said he did this: mad

Yeah...Ones on a good day, the other...well.....

So I take it that most of us are in unison then? It's PRIMARILY, not solely, the responsibility of the parents? Yes, we can include strong outside influences like siblings, teachers, priests/reverends/deacons, etc. etc. as secondary influences, but mostly it's the "P's"?

What age? My answer for people under around 10-11 is that it's the parents fault. After that, it's completely the childs.

I've seen way too many young kids get off without so much as a smack on the hand for doing bad deeds, purely because of the rationale "He's only young."

The sooner people realise that once you reach a certain age, you DO know when you're doing something wrong, the quicker we can start sorting out problems. Of course, bad parenting will increase the chances of this happening but it's not always the parents fault.

-AC

agreed, parents arn't the only ones to blame. the kids do make a choise for themselves at an age, irrelevant of the parents. my boss knows a guy, nicest guy in the world, lots of money, works for a large coroporation, has two daughters. he gave them everything in the world, treated them with respect, did everything he could, they both ended up in jail, both heroin junkies, one of them injected another chick with battery acid, them smashed her head in on a sink, then set her bodie on fire. THEN when they arrested her, she was in jail half hour, she'd stabbed another prisoner with scissors. its not JUST the parents fault, people do things off their own backs in the end, blaming the parents can only go so far

its all the medias fault. a lot of bad things can be traced to the media.

To Mentalguy, Jimmy Urine of Mindless Self Indulgence said something about the media in one of their album sleeves that you might wanna take heed of:

"A warning for those of you lazy, self-absorbed and/or just plain inattentive parents.

All the censorship in the world won't make up for bad parenting. If your child is more influenced by our music than by Mommy and Daddy, both you and your offspring have much bigger problems than our lyrics. So before you go hauling us or any other artist into court, look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you did the best job you could. Because if you're considering taking us to court, you didn't."

Stop blaming the media, it solves nothing.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To Mentalguy, Jimmy Urine of Mindless Self Indulgence said something about the media in one of their album sleeves that you might wanna take heed of:

"A warning for those of you lazy, self-absorbed and/or just plain inattentive parents.

All the censorship in the world won't make up for bad parenting. If your child is more influenced by our music than by Mommy and Daddy, both you and your offspring have much bigger problems than our lyrics. So before you go hauling us or any other artist into court, look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you did the best job you could. Because if you're considering taking us to court, you didn't."

Stop blaming the media, it solves nothing.

-AC

its not that. media is where most people get their ideas from. that and peer presure. im a teen i know this

No, you're wrong, quite simply. Being a teen doesn't mean you know everything about teens. I'm a teen also.

The media isn't to blame.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, you're wrong, quite simply. Being a teen doesn't mean you know everything about teens. I'm a teen also.

The media isn't to blame.

-AC



come on. i enjoy car surfing. i never even heard of it till it was on the news. i dont plan on stopping either

Originally posted by mentalguy
come on. i enjoy car surfing. i never even heard of it till it was on the news. i dont plan on stopping either


Then when/if you die from it, it will be your fault, not the media.

The media never said "HEY GO TRY THIS!" They reported it so people knew what dumbshits were doing and to watch out for it.

The kids and the parents share the blame once you get into the teenage years. Of course there will be negative influences like the media and other teens, but at the end of the day a teenager is old enough to accept responsibility for their own actions. If we keep letting people use music and movies as a cop out of why teenagers act up, then they're less likely to stop seeing that they have the false sense that they are not to blame. Parents should instill a sense of individual responsibility by the time the kid is old enough to get in really serious trouble.

Originally posted by BackFire
Then when/if you die from it, it will be your fault, not the media.

The media never said "HEY GO TRY THIS!" They reported it so people knew what dumbshits were doing and to watch out for it.


i guese its not their fault directly, but yes teens get their ideas from the media

Originally posted by mentalguy
come on. i enjoy car surfing. i never even heard of it till it was on the news. i dont plan on stopping either That would be standing on top of cars while they are moving?

Yeah, that's not the media's fault. The fact that you acknowledge it as something bad yet refuse to stop just shows that it's your own choice just as the consequences will be yours. When you hit the pavement it isn't going to break any of the media's bones.

Originally posted by mentalguy
i guese its not their fault directly, but yes teens get their ideas from the media

You're an idiot for car surfing. The media are free from blame.

-AC

Originally posted by BobbyD
People don't really change either, or at least not any more after 30, Soleran.

Jacopex, if your mother hadn't done all that she has done thus far, which is I'm gathering a lot from your circumstances, then she would have been the one to blame. However, the fact is she has done a lot for you and your siblings, despite the poor surroundings and negative influences.

Kudos to you for believing that you have a future. Stick with your goals, my man.

Wut do you mean. My mom supports me.

She a "ho"?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're an idiot for car surfing. The media are free from blame.

-AC

yep, people love blaming the media because they're to gutless to accept the concequences for their actions

lol you guys think i was serious about that. i do plenty of other stupid shit i aint got time

Blame the parents

Originally posted by debbiejo
Many times it's because the child is not being listened to. They feel they are not heard and then finally rebel...Most of children's lives they are told "How to feel, to think, or what not to"...Lots of shouldn'ts.....If more adults would ask the child the "Why's" and then explore that, instead of the "Don't"...There would be less rebellion in my opinion, and more free thinkers that would contribute to society...

that 'feeling' may or may not be accurate however. perhaps they ARE being listened to and just don't like the replies they receive.

in any event, the parents are (imho) certainly the primary blame-getters for 'bad-children' (though that entails a BROAD spectrum of behaviors). as a teacher it is remarkable to see how similar many children are to their parents -- for good OR ill. if the parents are NOT primarily responsible, who/what is? tv? 'society'? schools? friends? their environment? genetics?? these factors will all play a role (some larger, some smaller) in developing the child, but ultimately it falls to the parent/guardian i think. anything else is simply a cop out.

deb's suggestion of more 'why' questions is something i wholeheartedly support. if you want to confuse a child ask them why. critical/analytical thinking is difficult for most ADULTS! getting kids to start thinking this way early on IS a fantasic idea. 'why' questions, or 'how' or any question that gets a child to explore his thinking are great tools (in AND out of the classroom) and help make great thinkers.

Originally posted by leonidas
that 'feeling' may or may not be accurate however. perhaps they ARE being listened to and just don't like the replies they receive.

in any event, the parents are (imho) certainly the primary blame-getters for 'bad-children' (though that entails a BROAD spectrum of behaviors). as a teacher it is remarkable to see how similar many children are to their parents -- for good OR ill. if the parents are NOT primarily responsible, who/what is? tv? 'society'? schools? friends? their environment? genetics?? these factors will all play a role (some larger, some smaller) in developing the child, but ultimately it falls to the parent/guardian i think. anything else is simply a cop out.

deb's suggestion of more 'why' questions is something i wholeheartedly support. if you want to confuse a child ask them why. critical/analytical thinking is difficult for most ADULTS! getting kids to start thinking this way early on IS a fantasic idea. 'why' questions, or 'how' or any question that gets a child to explore his thinking are great tools (in AND out of the classroom) and help make great thinkers. Blaming anything and anyone but the child?

I think parents and child are both to be blame.. The responsibilty would more on the parents but child is also responsible for the choices he/she made. Add to that the culture and the generation we had now.. Child nowadays are too rebellious and obscure. They believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do regardless of its righteousness..

No no no. Let's stop finding some way to blame everyone but the children.

Once you get to a certain age, you know what you are or are not doing wrong. Parents or adults in general seem to have this blinkered view that you don't get a mind of your own till you're 16 or something.

I know a 10 year old who chose to start smoking. No amount of media blaming or parental blaming can make up for the fact that he knew it was wrong and decided against it. If anything, peer pressure is something that can lead to it.

-AC

Originally posted by Snoopbert
She a "ho"?

who?

this isn't in all cases but:

parents
tv
kids that are stupid
friends(the wrong crowd)

that's all i can think of

Originally posted by Snoopbert
Blaming anything and anyone but the child?

depends on the age of the child. if they are taught correctly from a young age to make the correct choices then when they get to the age where they are capable of choosing they will make the right choices. all the time? no, of course not. as i said, there are other factors that play into it and making bad choices (despite KNOWING they are bad) is a part of growing and learning.

a child at the age where they can make decisions needs to have had a great deal of experience and modelling to show them the choices that are best and choices that can harm them or have harmful outcomes.

by blaming the child (especially a YOUNG child) are you claiming that some children are just inherently/born bad?

*slaps you* My parents made me do it.

*Shoots woman* Grand Theft Auto made me do it.

*Cusses inchoherently* The media made me do it.

Originally posted by BobbyD
...fat little bastard that's screaming on the floor in the next aisle over

That was great capt fantastic. Funny, but wrong.

Regarding your examples, does it really matter what child it is, or where their path takes them? I refuse to blame the child. Learning starts right from day 1 out of the womb into the catcher's glove being held by his father. The parents are most importantly, the individuals responsible for nurturing and raising their child. If it doesn't start there, that's when you have problems down the road.


That's a really great non-answer.

Ouch...tough crowd.