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1 - TOAA
2 - Living Tribunal
3 - True Beyonders (Multiversal)
4 - Eternity the sum total of the 616 Universe (but not great in a battle as he can be subverted by many objects including THOTU and IG)
5 - Posessor of the HOTU
6 - Posessor of the IG
7 - Celestials
8 - Phoenix Force (perhaps) the sum total of the generations to be born, a finite number and a finite power level as of THOMU's most recent edition.
9 - Galactus - Death (is death equal to the life force e.g. Phoenix or greater she could just be)
10 Chaos, Order, Infinity, (are they equal to death and life as they effect the perception of both in the Marvel Universe).

Remember hierarchy is not just about power of winning in a fight its about everything fitting together and having a place. For the Marvel Universe to work some of these elements are essential. Some are not. I am not sure the Marvel Universe actually has a hierarchy that is not flexible due to situations after The One Above All who is obviously the pinnacle.

This is of course only my opinion and many may disagree.

Stay Whirly

Keep the faith

Your thoughts?

Sorry could you move this to Comic Books please Mods

This is the hierarchy as you see it?

Is HOTU above IG?
Shouldn't the two of them be just behind Living Tribunal?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
1 - TOAA
2 - Living Tribunal
3 - True Beyonders (Multiversal)
4 - Eternity the sum total of the 616 Universe (but not great in a battle as he can be subverted by many objects including THOTU and IG)
5 - Posessor of the HOTU
6 - Posessor of the IG
7 - Celestials
8 - Phoenix Force (perhaps) the sum total of the generations to be born, a finite number and a finite power level as of THOMU's most recent edition.
9 - Galactus - Death (is death equal to the life force e.g. Phoenix or greater she could just be)
10 Chaos, Order, Infinity, (are they equal to death and life as they effect the perception of both in the Marvel Universe).

Remember hierarchy is not just about power of winning in a fight its about everything fitting together and having a place. For the Marvel Universe to work some of these elements are essential. Some are not. I am not sure the Marvel Universe actually has a hierarchy that is not flexible due to situations after The One Above All who is obviously the pinnacle.

This is of course only my opinion and many may disagree.

Stay Whirly

Keep the faith

Your thoughts?
GS looked sad

did i miss something whirly?

Originally posted by kgkg
GS looked sad

did i miss something whirly?

perhaps - still I hope he doesn't leave the forum he is a good guy at heart.

Originally posted by roughrider
This is the hierarchy as you see it?

Is HOTU above IG?
Shouldn't the two of them be just behind Living Tribunal?

I think they are not truly multiversal so...... I don't think they are truly as high up in standing as the true beyonders although within 616 they may have more power. I think HOTU is higher that the IG in power yes don't you?

Originally posted by roughrider
This is the hierarchy as you see it?

Is HOTU above IG?
Shouldn't the two of them be just behind Living Tribunal?

I think Whirly's confused.



Here's how the top 5 should be IMO of course :

1. TOAA
2. Possessor of the HOTU
3. True Beyonders
4. Living Tribunal
5. Possessor of the Infinity Gauntlet

Not sure about HOTU...but I know in the original IG series, Eternity took it's case to the LT, saying Thanos with the IG will replace his being in the cosmos with his. So, IG is above Eternity if it can be subverted.

yup thats it. Its been shown that The HOTU is above all except maybe god.

See LT fighting the HOTU to no avail...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/Zeusandomnipotentbeings.bmp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/ThanosabsorbingLT.bmp

nice. keep the pics coming

Can someone explain to me what the Heart of the universe' is exactly hmmm.

OK.......here it goes. It is The Heart Of The Universe.

Well one thing Thanos beat Eternity when he had the Gauntlet. I not sure but does the heart of the Universe of which Universe all of them the one he is in or Maybe the Heart of the Universe is suppose to be the Supreme Beings heart that's the only way he could beat Living Tribunal because he is Judge Jury and Executioner over the Mutiverse.

Just checked it up

Heart of the unverse = Might as well call youself TOAA

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
See LT fighting the HOTU to no avail...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/Zeusandomnipotentbeings.bmp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/ThanosabsorbingLT.bmp

Ah but is its purpose essntial - my hieracrchy is not based on battlepower as stated earlier.

I am aware of what the HOTU can do in battle - is it though as essential to the universe as chaos or order or death?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Ah but is its purpose essntial - my hieracrchy is not based on battlepower as stated earlier.

I am aware of what the HOTU can do in battle - is it though as essential to the universe as chaos or order or death?

It did correct a universal flaw when thanos recreated the universe sacrificing himself but..........

Nope your wrong HOTU pwns all including you.

Originally posted by Mordum
Nope your wrong HOTU pwns all including you.


Hierarchy does not mean power in battle mordum.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Ah but is its purpose essntial - my hieracrchy is not based on battlepower as stated earlier.

I am aware of what the HOTU can do in battle - is it though as essential to the universe as chaos or order or death? ya whirly

HOTU is pretty much all there is.

When thanos was one with HOTU he was one with all of creation.

So hierarchy in terms of importance to existence in the MU?

If that's case, its:

1)TOAA
2)Living Tribunal & Phoenix Force (Equally important. One protects what the other embodies. Not Jean).
3)Abstracts (conceptual manifestations of existence).
4)Everything else.

In terms of firepower, it's a completely different story.

this list is more about purpose not power in battle.

Originally posted by kgkg
ya whirly

HOTU is pretty much all there is.

When thanos was one with HOTU he was one with all of creation.

I think Whirly is talking about value, and continuous importance not single acts

Originally posted by Evil Genius

Originally posted by thesilverspider
this list is more about purpose not power in battle.

agreed

Originally posted by illadelph12
So hierarchy in terms of importance to existence in the MU?

If that's case, its:

1)TOAA
2)Living Tribunal & Phoenix Force (Equally important. One protects what the other embodies. Not Jean).
3)Abstracts (conceptual manifestations of existence).
4)Everything else.

In terms of firepower, it's a completely different story.

Illadelph - the new handbook doesn't indicate the Phoenix embodies anything beyond the lifeforce of unborn generations. It has no link to the one above all at all.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Illadelph - the new handbook doesn't indicate the Phoenix embodies anything beyond the lifeforce of unborn generations. It has no link to the one above all at all. unborn generations ...........ohhhhhhhhhhhh now i see why GS is sad

Originally posted by kgkg
unborn generations ...........ohhhhhhhhhhhh now i see why GS is sad

Yes we can thank Blaqchaos for putting the world to rights

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Illadelph - the new handbook doesn't indicate the Phoenix embodies anything beyond the lifeforce of unborn generations. It has no link to the one above all at all.

Okay, so tell me what's more important than the essence of all future possibility?

And also, tell me how TOAA is not responsible for all possibility that is the Marvel Universe, which is Phoenix.

Written or unwritten, all things Marvel are linked to TOAA.

Phoenix equates to the essence of all life by that handbooks own admission.

Seems kind of important to me.

So, I'll reiterate:

1)TOAA
2)Living Tribunal (protector of all creation) and Phoenix Force (essence of all creation).
3)Abstracts (conceptual manifestations of existence).
4)Everything else.

I understand you guys are trying to stick it to GS, but your going about it all wrong.

I bear no malice or bias, I simply give opinions based on logical deduction.

I'm adamantly against GS's Kaballah influenced assertions about the Phoenix Force and Jean Grey, but it is clear, no matter how it is worded, that the Phoenix Force is the essence of all life and creation in the MU. The lifeforce of unborn generations, retro-active to the dawn of time, equates to the life force of ALL generations, because Phoenix was spawned in creation's conception, meaning it predates "life", meaning all that live, and all that will live, are of Phoenix.


Try again.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Okay, so tell me what's more important than the essence of all future possibility?

And also, tell me how TOAA is not responsible for all possibility that is the Marvel Universe, which is Phoenix.

Written or unwritten, all things Marvel are linked to TOAA.

Phoenix equates to the essence of all life by that handbooks own admission.

Seems kind of important to me.

So, I'll reiterate:

1)TOAA
2)Living Tribunal (protector of all creation) and Phoenix Force (essence of all creation).
3)Abstracts (conceptual manifestations of existence).
4)Everything else.

I understand you guys are trying to stick it to GS, but your going about it all wrong.

I bear no malice or bias, I simply give opinions based on logical deduction.

I'm adamantly against GS's Kaballah influenced assertions about the Phoenix Force and Jean Grey, but it is clear, no matter how it is worded, that the Phoenix Force is the essence of all life and creation in the MU. The lifeforce of unborn generations, retro-active to the dawn of time, equates to the life force of ALL generations, because Phoenix was spawned in creation's conception, meaning it predates "life", meaning all that live, and all that will live, are of Phoenix.


Try again.

I slightly disagree becuase the phoenix is powered by the life force of the unborn and everytime the force uses its powers, future unborns are not concieved ergo by existing in the present it destroys the future.

I don't know if that makes sense to you but it does to me.

It actually destroys future possibilities.

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

If Eternity and even LT are alive . . . and phoenix is the essence of all life. . . then wouldn't that mean that. . .

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I slightly disagree becuase the phoenix is powered by the life force of the unborn and everytime the force uses its powers, future unborns are not concieved ergo by existing in the present it destroys the future.

I don't know if that makes sense to you but it does to me.

It actually destroys future possibilities.

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

That's inherrently flawed Whirly.

Life in the Marvel Universe is perpetually infinite.

When one person dies another is born. When one universe ceases another is conceived. On a quantum level, at each moment divergent realities are spawned based on infinite possibilities, giving way to alternate universes and dimensions (basically, the "What If" comics).

There's always "What If?".

Phoenix is self sustaining.

Just as TOAA's initial will spawned infinite possibilities, so did it give conception to infinite amounts of possibilities for life, meaning Phoenix is perpetually sustained until TOAA deems otherwise.

As I said, try again.

I'm not an amateur, my friend.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
*essay discarded*

And since LT and Eternity are living things then that mean s that. . .

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's inherrently flawed Whirly.

Life in the Marvel Universe is perpetually infinite.

When one person dies another is born. When one universe ceases another is conceived. On a quantum level, at each moment divergent realities are spawned based on infinite possibilities, giving way to alternate universes and dimensions (basically, the "What If" comics).

There's always "What If?".

Phoenix is self sustaining.

Just as TOAA's initial will spawned infinite possibilities, so did it give conception to infinite amounts of possibilities for life, meaning Phoenix is perpetually sustained until TOAA deems otherwise.

As I said, try again.

I'm not an amateur, my friend.

From the handbook

"In order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existance."

Take it up with them

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

Yes.

And the same handbook also says:



Meaning that, as I said, it is perpetually infinite, because time is fluid, not linear, and is also perpetually infinite, just as possibility is. Until TOAA deems an end to existence, the perepetual cycles of "life, death, and rebirth", "cause, effect, and consequence", and "action and reaction", will continue, meaning Phoenix will always exist.

No Phoenix is equal to no existence.

Unless your trying to say the essence of existence (Phoenix) isn't important to Marvel existence, you're just spinning your wheels and picking a losing battle to anyone with deductive reasoning, Whirly.

That handbook just reaffirms what GS has been saying for the last 5 months without all the colorful Kaballah musings and religious overtones.

Phoenix is all life manifested.

No Phoenix means there's no life.

Now please stop making me defend logic.

Your bias against a character is blinding you to what is right in front of you.

You're better than that.

My "theory" fits perfectly with what the handbook says, Whirly, it just doesn't fit your agenda.

Phoenix is life and life is Phoenix.

They are synonymous.

So long as there is life there will be Phoenix because they are one and the same.

The fact that the Force can be wounded or misused doesn't change the fact it will still exist so long as life exists.

If Phoenix were destroyed or ceased to exist, all things that live or will live would be destroyed and Living Tribunal would have no purpose.

Sounds kind of important to me.

It's very simple.

TOAA begets life, which is "Phoenix", and is in and of all things, because all things are of TOAA, just as in reality (if you believe in creation), God begets life, which is the Holy Spirit, which is in and of all things, because all things are of God.

Existence is a physical manifestation of God's will (or thought). The Marvel Multiverse is a physical manifestation of TOAA's will (or thought).

Does thought breed possibility or does possibility breed thought?



Man, I'm getting to deep for a comic debate...


Anyway:

Phoenix is and is of life.

No Phoenix means there's no life.

Behind TOAA, Phoenix is the most important thing, because if there's no Phoenix there's no life.

Living Tribunal is equally as important because he protects life and the life cycle.

The Abstracts are representations of defining concepts of existence, so they fall a step behind in the order, but are still very important in the fabric of existence.

Creator.
Creation/Protection of Creation.
Concepts of Creation.

.

Phoenix is derived from Life, good thing tribunal isn't living or anything, other wise phoenix would be derived from him as well . . . Say what does the L in LT mean anyway?

Whirly's getting confused with the "in order to exist in the physical plane" part. . .

phoenix is derived FROM life. form the handbook that much is clear. in that regard, phoenix could not exist WITHOUT life/living beings, but where do you get it that life couldn't go on without pf? it sounds like there is some sort of 'pool' of energy reserved (by toaa?) for 'future generations'. the handbook also states this energy IS finite (despite your protestations, ill is DOES say it is finite).

however, that said, i do place more importance on pf than whirly does in his hierarchy, though i don't think he has an 'agenda' per se . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
phoenix is derived FROM life. form the handbook that much is clear. in that regard, phoenix could not exist WITHOUT life/living beings, but where do you get it that life couldn't go on without pf? it sounds like there is some sort of 'pool' of energy reserved (by toaa?) for 'future generations'. the handbook also states this energy IS finite (despite your protestations, ill is DOES say it is finite).

however, that said, i do place more importance on pf than whirly does in his hierarchy, though i don't think he has an 'agenda' per se . . .

Some of these things would be easier to explain in person.

I'll try to explain my view more clearly, leo:

Phoenix is a manifestation of all life, living and unborn.





Phoenix is dirived from the living and the unborn from the dawn of creation.

It's a manifestation of all life force allotted for living beings by TOAA.

If you were to destroy it, you would have to destroy it's sum, which is the life force of all beings that live or will ever live.

As for it being "finite", that's relative, because anything that has a beginning has an end (except God).

If all life ends, which is a possibility, because TOAA could decide life is a failed venture and should be terminated (Marvel goes out of business), Phoenix would cease to exist, meaning it's existence is finite. Given the perpetual nature of life, and the fact that Phoenix is a direct manifestation of the life force that fuels all life ever, it has an infinite supply of power so long as life exists.

Infinite supply of power within a finite span of time.

Metaphorically speaking, if life were a race that lasted for an hour, and living beings were cars, Phoenix would be all the fuel that powers all the vehicles not only in the race, but all the vehicles that could ever enter the race, until the race ends.

So long as their is life, there is Phoenix, and so long as there is Phoenix, there is life. They are one and the same.

If nothing lives, Phoenix can't exist.

If anything lives, even one being, there is Phoenix, because it's the life force of anything that lives.

If a cup of water is dirived from a pool it doesn't cease being water.

hmm...that was good

<<So long as their is life, there is Phoenix,>>

agreed. i've never questioned that. this idea is stating exactly what is stated in the handbook.

<<If nothing lives, Phoenix can't exist.
If anything lives, even one being, there is Phoenix, because it's the life force of anything that lives.>>

again, i agree completely. you're just restating what you said earlier.

<<Phoenix is a direct manifestation of the life force that fuels all life ever,>>

i agree again, but i THINK it is here that we just start to deviate in our views a bit. i understand completely what it is you are saying and agree. i'm just not sure you WANT me to agree with this part . . . the word MANIFESTATION would appear to cause you a problem here in that it is saying the pf is MANIFESTED FROM life. ie -- without life, pf would not exist (as we've said already). i'm not questioning that. what i question is this:

<<and so long as there is Phoenix, there is life. They are one and the same. >>

that MAY be true, but if you're saying life CANNOT exist without the pf, i just want to know where you get that idea from. again -- pf is DERIVED from life/is a MANIFESTATION OF life. pf needed/needs life. we agree there. but . . . where do you get the notion that life would cease without the pf?

<<If a cup of water is dirived from a pool it doesn't cease being water.>>

hmm, true of course. but (A) the cup of water couldn't/wouldn't exist had you not 'derived' it from the pool. and (B) if i dump the cup of water, the pool is left unaffected . . .

Hmm.... I'll stick with the Wolverine Spidey thread.... !!!

good idea. these damn threads will give you a headache!!

blowup

bump. cuz i KNOW illadelphia is gonna want to respond to this . . .

Given that every Big Bang kicks off a manifestation of the Phoenix Force, I would say that the Phoenix Force being the sum total of life only applies to that universe that its manifestation embodies. That means that the avatar of the Phoenix is limited to the amount of life that will exist in the lifecycle of that universe. The universe has a finite lifecycle because it is that Phoenix manifestation itself that destroys the universe. So I would contend that the power of the Phoenix is quite finite because there is NOT an infinite amount of future life....it ends when the universe ends. When the next universe begins, the cycle starts over with a new manifestation of the Phoenix Force.

Now here's the kicker - that limitation only applies to the wielder of the Phoenix Force. Jean Grey, in a battle, is limited to the total power of the future life of the universe. The Phoenix Force itself exists outside the multiverse, automatically putting it above universal beings and even above Multi-Eternity, who embodies the multiverse. It's responsible for the creation of the universes that become a part of Multi-Eternity. Essentially, each Universe is a Mercedes, Multi-Eternity is the Mercedes Warehouse, and Phoenix Force is the Mercedes Factory. While you can't say which is more important because they rely upon each other, if the Mercedes Factory breaks down....that's the end of Mercedes.

I'd put it this way. In terms of the hierarchy of IMPORTANCE to the Marvel Multiverse:

1. TOAA
2. Phoenix Force
3. LT
4. Multi-Eternity
5. Abstracts
6. Phoenix Manifestation
7. Eternity
8. Galactus
9. In-Betweener
10. Celestials

How could you put In Betweener above Celestials ??

phoenix is a crock of shit

Originally posted by demigawd
I'd put it this way. In terms of the hierarchy of IMPORTANCE to the Marvel Multiverse:




1. Reedforce
2. TOAA
3. Phoenix Force
4. LT
5. Multi-Eternity
6. Abstracts
7. Phoenix Manifestation
8. Eternity
9. Galactus
10. In-Betweener

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
1 - TOAA
2 - Living Tribunal
3 - True Beyonders (Multiversal)
4 - Eternity the sum total of the 616 Universe (but not great in a battle as he can be subverted by many objects including THOTU and IG)
5 - Posessor of the HOTU
6 - Posessor of the IG
7 - Celestials
8 - Phoenix Force (perhaps) the sum total of the generations to be born, a finite number and a finite power level as of THOMU's most recent edition.
9 - Galactus - Death (is death equal to the life force e.g. Phoenix or greater she could just be)
10 Chaos, Order, Infinity, (are they equal to death and life as they effect the perception of both in the Marvel Universe).

Remember hierarchy is not just about power of winning in a fight its about everything fitting together and having a place. For the Marvel Universe to work some of these elements are essential. Some are not. I am not sure the Marvel Universe actually has a hierarchy that is not flexible due to situations after The One Above All who is obviously the pinnacle.

This is of course only my opinion and many may disagree.

Stay Whirly

Keep the faith

Your thoughts?

Disgusting list.
Living Tribunal>HOTU?
Celestial>Galactus?
Eternity>IG?
And Living Tribunal>Phoenix Force?

1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. Phoenix Force
4. Living Tribunal
5. IG

We dont know much about Infinites, but they are ceratinly beyond Eternity and also IG.

Originally posted by Wild Cowboy
How could you put In Betweener above Celestials ??

Because he's the universal concept thats keep chaos & order equal. I think that's more important than some godly genetic scientists.

Originally posted by Wild Cowboy
How could you put In Betweener above Celestials ??

Maestro beat me to it.Originally posted by Tony Stark
Originally posted by demigawd
I'd put it this way. In terms of the hierarchy of IMPORTANCE to the Marvel Multiverse:




1. Reedforce
2. TOAA
3. Phoenix Force
4. LT
5. Multi-Eternity
6. Abstracts
7. Phoenix Manifestation
8. Eternity
9. Galactus
10. In-Betweener

haha....actually according to FF, Reed replaced the original role of Eternity inside an instance of the universe. So that would make Reedforce tied with Eternity for #7.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Disgusting list.
Living Tribunal>HOTU?
Celestial>Galactus?
Eternity>IG?
And Living Tribunal>Phoenix Force?

1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. Phoenix Force
4. Living Tribunal
5. IG

We dont know much about Infinites, but they are ceratinly beyond Eternity and also IG.

We're not talking about power, we're talking about importance. HOTU and IG are not important to the existence of the multiverse

Ya know, on the Thundercats, Mumm-Ra used to always say "Where ever evil exist, Mumm-Ra lived." He'd also boast that he couldn't be destroyed as long as evil existed somewhere in the universe.

It seems that as long as there was evil anywhere, Mumm-Ra would continue to exist. Now, does that mean that evil could not exist in the universe without Mumm-Ra? No. Does that mean that Mumm-Ra could not exist without evil? Probably yes.

I see this as the same situation with the Phoenix Force and life. Could life exist without the Phoenix Force? Yes. Could the Phoenix Force exist without life? No.

Originally posted by leonidas
bump. cuz i KNOW illadelphia is gonna want to respond to this . . .



You know me too well leo.

The reason why I believe life can not exist without Phoenix is simple:

Phoenix is the manifestation of all lifeforce for all things Marvel, past, present and future. This we both agree upon (as you've stated above).

The place where we disagree is all based upon the word "derived" being used in the bio, and the context each of us interpret it in.

I'm assessing from your posts you believe that Phoenix is somehow separate from the allotted energy that is lifeforce, and life could live on if Phoenix didn't exist.

I see it as this:

TOAA assigned a bastion of power to fuel all Marvel life, ever.

This power is semi-sentient in nature and is called the Phoenix Force.

For all intents and purposes, the Phoenix Force is simply another name for the Holy Spirit.
They both serve the same roll.

By technicality, all things that live have the Phoenix Force in them, because all things that live come from the energy TOAA assigned for life.

The Phoenix Force can, when necessary, manifest itself in the physical plane within an avatar, but in doing so it becomes self consuming and shortens the life span of the particular universe it manifests in.

Due to the perpetual nature of life in the Marvel Multiverse (i.e.: universes dying and being reborn as new verses), the Phoenix is both self-consuming and self-sustaining because life begets life.

Where we disagree is at the point where you believe there is a separation between Phoenix and lifeforce. Phoenix is a direct manifestation of the prime force of life, which is "derived" from all living things. The prime force of life is the power that TOAA allotted for all life. Life derives from Phoenix and Phoenix derives from life. That's what Phoenix is. It's .

Life and Phoenix are co-dependent.

You can't have one without the other.

Everything that lives has a soul.

I wish I could explain this vocally, it would be far easier to convey.

Anyway, I agree with demi's list save I believe Phoenix and Living Tribunal are equally important, so they'd both be at 2 on my list. I believe it's equally as important to protect creation as it is to fuel it.

And what the hell is the Reedforce? Is this another of the board's inside jokes like Flash Prime?

Originally posted by illadelph12

I wish I could explain this vocally, it would be far easier to convey.


I think Ill's asking for your number. serenade



I see what you're saying, but I give a slight edge to creating life. Life can exist without protecting it, but if there's no life, there's nothing to protect. Without the LT, the multiverse becomes the wild west - dangerous, chaotic and in constant danger, but will still exist indefinitely. If anything, without the LT, the creation/destruction cycles would just happen more often, which isn't that dire.



In FF, Reed and some cosmic something or other kicked off the creation of 616 by asking "why", which is something that Eternity was said to have done before.

why does every thread dealing with hierarchy or omnipotent-type being eveentually result into a thread about phoenix?

Originally posted by Ethereal
why does every thread dealing with hierarchy or omnipotent-type being eveentually result into a thread about phoenix?

because Phoenix is an omnipotent-type being who is part of the hierarchy?

Originally posted by Ethereal
why does every thread dealing with hierarchy or omnipotent-type being eveentually result into a thread about phoenix?
Because the Phoenix Force is the one variable that people seem to disagree most about. Every knows and agress on the abilities, limits, and purpose of the Living Tribunal, Eternity, Death, etc.

Personally, as an entity unto itself, I think the PF should be counted as a sibling of Death. A sort of Ying to it's Yang.

Nah homie, Illa's no switch hitter. Unless leo's Vida Guerra, Jessica Alba or Skyy Black, I'm not trying to holla. I'm just saying it's easier to explain things in person because online I can't convey what I'm saying as well as I could vocally.



Oh, the "Space Bunny".

I think that the "Space Bunny" is Eternity, actually.

By technicality, when Reed went back to the "pre-creation hesitation" and asked "Why", it actually meant that Eternity kicked off the creation of the 616 universe because Reed is a part of Eternity's sum.

Reed was having the same experience Eternity had at the same time with the same result, save Reed was witnessing it with his own perceptions.

Basically, Reed was kind of a participant and voyeur of the conception of 616.

In the end, none of your theories mean shit.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Because the Phoenix Force is the one variable that people seem to disagree most about. Every knows and agress on the abilities, limits, and purpose of the Living Tribunal, Eternity, Death, etc.

I think 90% of the people agree with 90% of Phoenix.

It's that 10/10 that'll kill you....

<<I think Ill's asking for your number. >>



<<For all intents and purposes, the Phoenix Force is simply another name for the Holy Spirit.
They both serve the same roll. >>

ah ha! now you're arguing gs's hypothetical ph/toaa relationship! the difference (as i see it) is this:

holy spirit a direct emanation/manifestation/derivation FROM GOD.

pf derived NOT from toaa, but rather the 'psyches' of all living beings. there is a degree of seperation between toaa and pf. there is NO seperation between god/holy spirit.

this is beginning to sound like our astroforce/power cosmic discussion!

let me ask you (and demi, since you're weighing in) this:

what order were things created by toaa? i'd say he created the universe (first big bang?) then created life from which was DERIVED the pf (perhaps at toaa's wishing/behest) because it was derived FROM/is a MANIFESTATION OF life, it stands to reason life existed BEFORE the pf, hence life can/has/did exist without a pf. if not, from what was the pf derived?

anway, as far as the hierarchy:

<<1. TOAA
2. Phoenix Force
3. LT
4. Multi-Eternity
5. Abstracts
6. Phoenix Manifestation
7. Eternity
8. Galactus
9. In-Betweener
10. Celestials>>

this is pretty close to what i'd say, 'cept i'd swap 2 & 3 and not include the phoenix manifestation. i'd also consider inbetweener more an abstract since it embodies the concept of absolutes. people keep including the ig and hotu but why? what do they actually contribute to the lifecycle of the multiverse? what are their purposes (other than to be used as overpowered, bullcrap excuses of PIS)?

Are we understating Death's role in the universe. Imagine if no one ever died no matter what you ever did to them. The universe itself would not be able to sustain the amount of life within it.

actually blaqchaos, i think you raise an interesting point. i wonder if there is a version of a 'multi-death' similar to demi's 'multi-eternity'?

Originally posted by leonidas
actually blaqchaos, i think you raise an interesting point. i wonder if there is a version of a 'multi-death' similar to demi's 'multi-eternity'? death is multiversal

Originally posted by demigawd
We're not talking about power, we're talking about importance. HOTU and IG are not important to the existence of the multiverse

Aha

Than it:

1. Obviously TOAA, he alone is the only trully important, cause he created everthing. He only made LT to do some job, to protect, while Phoenix Force is ascpet of God.

Originally posted by kgkg
death is multiversal So what about in Universe X when Death was killed/destroyed by an ultimate nulifyer?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Aha

Than it:

1. Obviously TOAA, he alone is the only trully important, cause he created everthing. He only made LT to do some job, to protect, while Phoenix Force is ascpet of God. Sorry, Phoenix Force is NOT an aspect of God. We cleared that up a few days ago.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<I think Ill's asking for your number. >>



<<For all intents and purposes, the Phoenix Force is simply another name for the Holy Spirit.
They both serve the same roll. >>

ah ha! now you're arguing gs's hypothetical ph/toaa relationship! the difference (as i see it) is this:

holy spirit a direct emanation/manifestation/derivation FROM GOD.

pf derived NOT from toaa, but rather the 'psyches' of all living beings. there is a degree of seperation between toaa and pf. there is NO seperation between god/holy spirit.

this is beginning to sound like our astroforce/power cosmic discussion!

let me ask you (and demi, since you're weighing in) this:

what order were things created by toaa? i'd say he created the universe (first big bang?) then created life from which was DERIVED the pf (perhaps at toaa's wishing/behest) because it was derived FROM/is a MANIFESTATION OF life, it stands to reason life existed BEFORE the pf, hence life can/has/did exist without a pf. if not, from what was the pf derived?

anway, as far as the hierarchy:

<<1. TOAA
2. Phoenix Force
3. LT
4. Multi-Eternity
5. Abstracts
6. Phoenix Manifestation
7. Eternity
8. Galactus
9. In-Betweener
10. Celestials>>

this is pretty close to what i'd say, 'cept i'd swap 2 & 3 and not include the phoenix manifestation. i'd also consider inbetweener more an abstract since it embodies the concept of absolutes. people keep including the ig and hotu but why? what do they actually contribute to the lifecycle of the multiverse? what are their purposes (other than to be used as overpowered, bullcrap excuses of PIS)?

Hmm...

I see what you're saying Leo, but the Phoenix Force predates life as well. It's the life force of the living and the unborn, retroactive to the dawn of creation.

Essentially, when TOAA decided he was going to create life, he set in place a mass of his power which would fuel all of creation. This mass of energy is life, which is also Phoenix.

They are the same thing.

Life comes from TOAA.

Phoenix comes from Life.

Phoenix comes from the same place Life does, TOAA.

There are no degrees of separation.

Life energy and the Phoenix Force are one and the same.

Phoenix didn't exist until TOAA willed life to commence.

Phoenix is the lifeforce of anything that will ever live, unborn and living.

Nothing has lived that hasn't been infused with the Phoenix Force.

Your getting to caught up with the word "derivitive".

Life is derived from TOAA.
Phoenix is derived from Life, which is derived from TOAA.
Phoenix, then, is derived from TOAA.
All things Marvel are derived from TOAA.

Phoenix is the manifestation of the prime force of life of anything that will ever live in Marvel.

As for the Holy Spirit comparison, I don't mean in a religious context, I mean in purpose. All things that live, according to the Bible, were created of and infused with the Holy Spirit. It's the lifeforce of all things created by God. I'm not an advocate of the other dillusions GS was spouting about sephorahs and kaballah, etc, I'm just making a general comparison of the roles of the 2 energy sources because they suit the same purpose.


Yo, by the way, the conversations on here, or at least the ones I've actually chosen to take an interest in, have been really good lately.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
So what about in Universe X when Death was killed/destroyed by an ultimate nulifyer?
When was death killed?

Beyonder killed death ------------- had a multiversal effect.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Aha

Than it:

1. Obviously TOAA, he alone is the only trully important, cause he created everthing. He only made LT to do some job, to protect, while Phoenix Force is ascpet of God.

Phoenix isn't an aspect of God. Phoenix is just the energy God places in all things that will ever live.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<For all intents and purposes, the Phoenix Force is simply another name for the Holy Spirit.
They both serve the same roll. >>


I like being served rolls! especially if they're hot and buttered!



I actually have to side with Leon, here. I'd also submit that there's a higher degree of separation between the Phoenix Force and TOAA than between TOAA and the Holy Spirit. The PF is the fuel that powers the creation cycles of each universe. Each manifestation of the Phoenix is responsible for the stuff of that universe. In that sense, the Phoenix Manifestation and the Universe are inextricably linked and co-dependent, however, I don't see a higher spiritual connection to TOAA there.



That's a fair question. The way it seems in the Marvel Universe, the TOAA actually has very little direct input in anything. He's very much a hands-off manager. The way I see it, it occurred in this order:

1. TOAA created blueprints for all creation and loaded them all up in a package that he called "The Phoenix Force".

2. He set aside a space among the infinite for where these creations will exist side by side as a multiverse. This space a became known as Multi-Eternity and was granted sentience.

3. TOAA created LT to judge the multiverse and to carry out TOAA's rulings and laws, ensuring that the blueprints are followed correctly. Multi-Eternity is bound by those laws.

4. The Phoenix Force exists in the White Hot Room, a place outside of Multi-Eternity, and hands out universes to Multi-Eternity the way the Easter Bunny hands out eggs. Essentially, Multi-Eternity is a jig-saw puzzle of infinite size, each piece of the puzzle is a universe, and the Phoenix Force is the person putting the puzzle together. TOAA is Milton-Bradley.

5. Each "egg" added to Multi-Eternity is unhatched until Eternity, being a self-UNaware aspect of Multi-Eternity, asks "Why?". That triggers the hatching, creating a Big Bang (or manifestation of the Phoenix). The Big Bang then creates instances of all of the other abstracts and Eternity then becomes self-aware and part of the greater Multi-Eternity. While it's true that Death is the opposite of Eternity, there is no such thing as Multi-Death - the destruction of the universe is governed solely by the Phoenix Force.

6. From there each universe develops fairly independently, only following the basic rules set out by TOAA and enforced by LT, which is why each universe is similar in so many ways.

So to sum up my theory of the relationship between the members of the hierarchy, it is LT, enforcing the TOAA's blueprint programmed into the universal eggs the Phoenix Force added to Multi-Eternity and brought to life by Eternity via a manifestation of the Phoenix, that ensures that level of consistency.

I've gone over this theory a few times since I wrote it to make sure it addresses most of the things we've discussed over the months, and it seems to fit everything in well. If there's something someone has mentioned in the past that threatens this theory, tell me about it and I'll either explain or revise accordingly.



I think my explanation on the relationship between the abstracts and TOAA justifies why I have the order the way I do, and also justifies the need for a manifestation of the Phoenix. A Phoenix manifestation is necessary because as Reed said, it's synonymous with a Big Bang - it embodies a single universe, but it's also outside of the universe. The only explanation for both is what I mentioned above - the Phoenix Force and the Phoenix Manifestation. It also explains some glaring holes in how the Phoenix could be incredibly naive sometimes and all-knowing other times.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

I see what you're saying Leo, but the Phoenix Force predates life as well. It's the life force of the living and the unborn, retroactive to the dawn of creation.

Essentially, when TOAA decided he was going to create life, he set in place a mass of his power which would fuel all of creation. This mass of energy is life, which is also Phoenix.

They are the same thing.

Life comes from TOAA.

Phoenix comes from Life.

Phoenix comes from the same place Life does, TOAA.

There are no degrees of separation.

Life energy and the Phoenix Force are one and the same.

Phoenix didn't exist until TOAA willed life to commence.

Phoenix is the lifeforce of anything that will ever live, unborn and living.

Nothing has lived that hasn't been infused with the Phoenix Force.

Your getting to caught up with the word "derivitive".

Life is derived from TOAA.
Phoenix is derived from Life, which is derived from TOAA.
Phoenix, then, is derived from TOAA.
All things Marvel are derived from TOAA.

Phoenix is the manifestation of the prime force of life of anything that will ever live in Marvel.

As for the Holy Spirit comparison, I don't mean in a religious context, I mean in purpose. All things that live, according to the Bible, were created of and infused with the Holy Spirit. It's the lifeforce of all things created by God. I'm not an advocate of the other dillusions GS was spouting about sephorahs and kaballah, etc, I'm just making a general comparison of the roles of the 2 energy sources because they suit the same purpose.


Yo, by the way, the conversations on here, or at least the ones I've actually chosen to take an interest in, have been really good lately.

All things are derived from TOAA, not just PF. Eternity, Death, EVERYTHING. PF is no more TOAA than Eternity.

Death is the same kind of Abstract as Life, with night comes day. If Whirly was here he would agree.

Originally posted by Evil Genius
Death is the same kind of Abstract as Life, with night comes day. If Whirly was here he would agree. As do I.

There is no abstract called Life.

Also, I must disagree about your statment about what the PF is responsible for. It serves no other purpose than the creation cycle. It can no more bring about the end of the universe than Eternity can.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
All things are derived from TOAA, not just PF. Eternity, Death, EVERYTHING. PF is no more TOAA than Eternity.

I said that already.

The only difference is purpose. Phoenix's purpose is simply more important. It fulfills an essential roll.

Originally posted by demigawd
There is no abstract called Life.

No it powers the Phoenix instead and the Phoenix dies when no life exists.

Originally posted by demigawd
There is no abstract called Life. Because it's called the Phoenix Force.

To further expand on my theory to the levels down, the In-betweener is more than an abstract (that's why he got punched out by Galactus) - he is the balance beween order and chaos the way that Galactus is the balance of life and death. Without them, each universe would tilt towards one extreme or the other and destroy itself with the lack of balance.

The Celestials are the Johnny Appleseeds of life.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I said that already.

The only difference is purpose. Phoenix's purpose is simply more important. It fulfills an essential roll. More essential than Eternity and Death? No. As essential as Eternity and Death? Yes.

Originally posted by demigawd
To further expand on my theory to the levels down, the In-betweener is more than an abstract (that's why he got punched out by Galactus) - he is the balance beween order and chaos the way that Galactus is the balance of life and death. Without them, each universe would tilt towards one extreme or the other and destroy itself with the lack of balance.

The Celestials are the Johnny Appleseeds of life.
that's not a theory it's fact

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Because it's called the Phoenix Force.

Exactly it is the "manifestation" of LIFE Lifes abstract

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Also, I must disagree about your statment about what the PF is responsible for. It serves no other purpose than the creation cycle. It can no more bring about the end of the universe than Eternity can.

Actually, the manifestation of the Phoenix does bring about the destruction and recycling of the universe.

Originally posted by Evil Genius
No it powers the Phoenix instead and the Phoenix dies when no life exists.

Only that Phoenix manifestation! The Phoenix Force exists outside of the multiverse, and thus is unaffected by life or lack thereof. If multi-Eternity was destroyed, all life would cease to exist, as the multiverse would cease to exist. All manifestations of the Phoenix would be destroyed, since it can't exist without life. But the Phoenix Force, being within the White Hot Room, would be unaffected the same way the unused lump of clay would be unaffected by the destruction of a series of clay models.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Because it's called the Phoenix Force.

Exactly, and Death has no power over it. That's why I say there's no Multi-Death.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Phoenix isn't an aspect of God. Phoenix is just the energy God places in all things that will ever live.

Important is actully that no one is imporant, except TOAA. He created everthing, gave few beings a job and that is it.

Is death the absence of life? Is life the absence of death?
Is chaos the absence of order? is order the absence of chaos?

Originally posted by demigawd
Exactly, and Death has no power over it. That's why I say there's no Multi-Death.

Flawed - Universal Death its part of Phoenixes cycle it dictates the cycle in fact.

Originally posted by Evil Genius
Flawed - Universal Death its part of Phoenixes cycle it dictates the cycle in fact.

Phoenix doesn't bring death, it brings the end of the cycle, which is different from death, the same way Oblivion is a separate abstract from Death, despite the fact that they are both forms of "the end".

Put it this way - if the Phoenix Force wanted Thanos removed from creation, it wouldn't have to kill Thanos, and thus Death's protection would have nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Is death the absence of life? Is life the absence of death?
Is chaos the absence of order? is order the absence of chaos?

The answer to all is NO. Both Oblivion and Death are the absence of life. So it's not limited. That's why, again, there's no Multi-Death.

Originally posted by demigawd
The answer to all is NO. Both Oblivion and Death are the absence of life. So it's not limited. That's why, again, there's no Multi-Death. Well that was the point.

Life being the absence of death sounds rather odd. Which is why it's hard to say that Phoenix force is the abstract of Life like that. It's more or less an attempt to back you up.

oh, ok.

The PF was born is the void between states of being.

This should help clarify the whole Death vs. Phoenix vs. Eternity thing.

In Marvel and indeed in most major religions in real life, death isn't seen as an end, it's likened more to a change of state - a shift of energy form. In Marvel, when you die, you usually find yourself in some realm or other - Valhalla, Heaven, Avalon, Hel, Hell, etc. It's not an end for you, and you're still part of that same universe you were born in...you're just now in a spiritual/energy/incorporeal/soul form.

The real *end* for you only comes when the universe itself is destroyed. Then you are DESTROYED, along with your assigned death god and Death. Death is not destruction, therefore she can't be seen as a counter-Phoenix.

And to be honest, Phoenix is more than life, too. Phoenix is existence. Stars aren't alive, and thus can't be killed...but they exist, and thus can be destroyed.

There's really no comparison of the two, and Death's power is very limited.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
More essential than Eternity and Death? No. As essential as Eternity and Death? Yes.

Yes, more essential.

Phoenix gives the abstracts purpose.

If there was no creation and no existence, there'd be no purpose for Living Tribunal, Death, Eternity, or any of the other abstracts.

You can't have conceptual embodiments unless they have something to embody.

Phoenix brings substance.

Originally posted by demigawd
Phoenix doesn't bring death, it brings the end of the cycle, which is different from death, the same way Oblivion is a separate abstract from Death, despite the fact that they are both forms of "the end".

Put it this way - if the Phoenix Force wanted Thanos removed from creation, it wouldn't have to kill Thanos, and thus Death's protection would have nothing to do with it.

If that were the case, then why does it always have such a hard time executing it's will? It's been destroyed, manipulated, and imprisoned.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
If that were the case, then why does it always have such a hard time executing it's will? It's been destroyed, manipulated, and imprisoned. Because you're having problems making a distinction between "phoenix Force" and a manifestation of the phoenix in the physical plane.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Because you're having problems making a distinction between "phoenix Force" and a manifestation of the phoenix in the physical plane. No, the statement made it clear that if the PF didn't want Thanos to exist, he wouldn't. How would it accomplish that?

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
No, the statement made it clear that if the PF didn't want Thanos to exist, he wouldn't. How would it accomplish that? How would it not?

I thought Demi's post was pretty clear.

The universe is like a human body. Argueing that the Phoenix Force is more important than Eternity, Death, or LT, is like saying that a heart is more important than a brain or spine. In order for the universe to exist, each part is as important as the others.

Try re-reading the guide and history of the PF again.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
No, the statement made it clear that if the PF didn't want Thanos to exist, he wouldn't. How would it accomplish that?

The same way an avatar was able to sever and rewrite a timeline in the 616.

Jean is a host, not an avatar. A prime host, but a host none the less.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
The universe is like a human body. Argueing that the Phoenix Force is more important than Eternity, Death, or LT, is like saying that a heart is more important than a brain or spine. In order for the universe to exist, each part is as important as the others. You or I are as important as an LT or Eternity that would exist for us? So if I should cease to exist, the universe would cease to exist?

Appearently you don't grasp the concept of importance. . .

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Jean is a host, not an avatar. A prime host, but a host none the less. How nitpicky of you. Does it change his point?

Originally posted by Creshosk
You or I are as important as an LT or Eternity that would exist for us? So if I should cease to exist, the universe would cease to exist?

Appearently you don't grasp the concept of importance. . .

I think he does and you don't, everything that has an end must have a beginning! and vice versa! Doh

Originally posted by Creshosk
You or I are as important as an LT or Eternity that would exist for us? So if I should cease to exist, the universe would cease to exist?

Appearently you don't grasp the concept of importance. . . No, it is you that missunderstands. Your death or my death would be the same as the death of a single blood cell.


The Phoenix Force can wield it's energy to project beams of immense concussive force, as well as transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole, then it reforms itself upon reaching it's destination, like the Phoenix of Earth legend.

While possessing a human host, the Force is able to augment any super-powers they have to vastly higher levels.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
No, it is you that missunderstands. Your death or my death would be the same as the death of a single blood cell.


The Phoenix Force can wield it's energy to project beams of immense concussive force, as well as transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole, then it reforms itself upon reaching it's destination, like the Phoenix of Earth legend.

While possessing a human host, the Force is able to augment any super-powers they have to vastly higher levels.

Exactly no need for theories its all here

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
No, it is you that missunderstands. Your death or my death would be the same as the death of a single blood cell. But hey its all derived from TOAA, regardless of the importance of its role right?

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
b Again failing to make the distinction between manifestation (Host) and the force (imortal indestructable etc)

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
as well as transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole, then it reforms itself upon reaching it's destination, like the Phoenix of Earth legend.

While possessing a human host, the Force is able to augment any super-powers they have to vastly higher levels. But the phoenix force is imortal. . . but it can also project beams of concussive force right?

That's the problem, you fail to understand the distinction between it existing on the physical plain and when it's not.

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
Exactly no need for theories its all here THen why put them out?

Seriously, if you fial to make that distinction, then when you interchangably use "phoenix force" and Phoenix" when talking about the tywo different things then all you yourselves are doing is putting out theroy which contradicts what is right there in the handbook. . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
THen why put them out?

Seriously, if you fial to make that distinction, then when you interchangably use "phoenix force" and Phoenix" when talking about the tywo different things then all you yourselves are doing is putting out theroy which contradicts what is right there in the handbook. . .

Are you a girl? you have a fiminine sig. Are you up for it girly?

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
The universe is like a human body. Argueing that the Phoenix Force is more important than Eternity, Death, or LT, is like saying that a heart is more important than a brain or spine. In order for the universe to exist, each part is as important as the others.

I see what you're saying in that different parts of the body are equally important, but the analogy is unsound, because not all of these entities are part of the same body (the universe or the multi-verse).

There is "creation" - TOAA, PF and LT can all exist independently of anything else....they just don't have anything to do. The rest of the multiverse could end, and they would all still exist.

*note, there is some ambiguity over whether LT is a multiversal being considering he was taken down by Heart of the UNIVERSE. It could be possible that there's a Multi-LT.

There's the "multiverse" - again, TOAA, LT and PF all exist independently of that.

There's the "universe" - Multi-Eternity also exists independently of the universe. If a universe is destroyed, Multi-Eternity endures.

So the conclusion is that while it's true that each of these entities play equally important roles in sustaining LIFE, they are not co-dependent the way the heart, lungs, brain, etc. are.

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
Are you a girl? you have a fiminine sig. Are you up for it girly? Are you brainless? I see you have no sig, so you must have no coporeal form, including a brain.

Hey it's your logic which lead me to bealive you are a brainless moron, sock.

They are codependant, I am sure at least one person has theorised this

Originally posted by demigawd
I see what you're saying in that different parts of the body are equally important, but the analogy is unsound, because not all of these entities are part of the same body (the universe or the multi-verse).

There is "creation" - TOAA, PF and LT can all exist independently of anything else....they just don't have anything to do. The rest of the multiverse could end, and they would all still exist.

*note, there is some ambiguity over whether LT is a multiversal being considering he was taken down by Heart of the UNIVERSE. It could be possible that there's a Multi-LT.

There's the "multiverse" - again, TOAA, LT and PF all exist independently of that.

There's the "universe" - Multi-Eternity also exists independently of the universe. If a universe is destroyed, Multi-Eternity endures.

So the conclusion is that while it's true that each of these entities play equally important roles in sustaining LIFE, they are not co-dependent the way the heart, lungs, brain, etc. are.

Another thing of course is not every body part is as important as the others.

Appendix, fingers one of the kidneys, the eyes. . . etc etc.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Are you brainless? I see you have no sig, so you must have no coporeal form, including a brain.

Hey it's your logic which lead me to bealive you are a brainless moron, sock.

your a stressy girl but I forgive you, are you cute baby

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
They are codependant, I am sure at least one person has theorised this Couild 616 exist with the destruction of OTHER universes?

Yes it could, be cause it has and it does.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
The universe is like a human body. Argueing that the Phoenix Force is more important than Eternity, Death, or LT, is like saying that a heart is more important than a brain or spine. In order for the universe to exist, each part is as important as the others.

Each part of a body has a purpose, but in order for it to fulfill it's purpose the body has to be conceived.

There's no birth without Phoenix.

It's the precursor.

That is what places Phoenix's purpose ahead of the abstracts.

Through Phoenix conceptuality is born.

That's the point you're missing Blaq.

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
your a stressy girl but I forgive you, are you cute baby Why is it that a person's appearence is dictated by the signature and not the avatar?

Do you even know what an avatar is, sock?

And I mean more than just the picture under your name, but the actual meaning of the concept "avatar".

Originally posted by Creshosk
Why is it that a person's appearence is dictated by the signature and not the avatar?

Do you even know what an avatar is, sock?

And I mean more than just the picture under your name, but the actual meaning of the concept "avatar".

your mouth says not but.......... this is the babe thread I heard sexy

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
your mouth says not but.......... this is the babe thread I heard sexy Okay Whirly.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Each part of a body has a purpose, but in order for it to fulfill it's purpose the body has to be conceived.

There's no birth without Phoenix.

It's the precursor.

That is what places Phoenix's purpose ahead of the abstracts.

Through Phoenix conceptuality is born.

That's the point you're missing Blaq.

No TOAA envisages what Phoenixes makes reality and he decides when things die thats what you don't get. Life and Death the same.

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
No TOAA envisages what Phoenixes makes reality and he decides when things die thats what you don't get. Life and Death the same.

No, he decides when things end. Death isn't an end state to life. They're really not opposites. That's what you don't get.

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
No TOAA envisages what Phoenixes makes reality and he decides when things die thats what you don't get. Life and Death the same.

No they aren't.

Death in a universe is not the same thing as oblivion.

Phoenix being responsible (be it deligated authority) for creation, and also ending the life cyclces, as well as the abstracts themselves being alive. Shows it to be greater than death. it is "immortal" it is "indestructable"

Yet death, which is rather weak in marvel is on par with the creation of the universe, the destruction of the universe, and wven the LIVING Tribunal?

Seriously ask yourself what is death in the Marvel Universe:

Death is nto the end

Originally posted by illadelph12
Each part of a body has a purpose, but in order for it to fulfill it's purpose the body has to be conceived.

There's no birth without Phoenix.

It's the precursor.

That is what places Phoenix's purpose ahead of the abstracts.

Through Phoenix conceptuality is born.

That's the point you're missing Blaq.

Let me put it this way. Using the human analogy, the PF isn't the concieved body. It's the things that allows new cells to be born to replace the dying ones. As such, it was there when the egg first divided into two new cell; before there was a brain, heart, or anything else. But it's role, it's purpose, is of equal value as the organs it helps maintain.

Without the PF, the cells would die as such so would the body. But the same can be said about the brain or heart. Granted, in this analogy the PF could survive without the body. But we're not debating it's survival, we're debating it's importance in the grand scheme of things.

Not to be insulting because I realize not everyone on this board is an adult, but I feel like I've been debating with children for the last hour or so.

Originally posted by demigawd
No, he decides when things end. Death isn't an end state to life. They're really not opposites. That's what you don't get.

it depends if you see death as final, i think degrees of death exist.

Originally posted by Creshosk
No they aren't.

Death in a universe is not the same thing as oblivion.

Phoenix being responsible (be it deligated authority) for creation, and also ending the life cyclces, as well as the abstracts themselves being alive. Shows it to be greater than death. it is "immortal" it is "indestructable"

Yet death, which is rather weak in marvel is on par with the creation of the universe, the destruction of the universe, and wven the LIVING Tribunal?

Seriously ask yourself what is death in the Marvel Universe:

Death is nto the end

look young lady, its cool you read comics but you don't get them, I forgive you though

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
it depends if you see death as final, i think degrees of death exist. "death" in the marvel universe is not final.

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
look young lady, its cool you read comics but you don't get them, I forgive you though So because I disagree I don't get them?

Funny when its you that's not getting it. How can something derived from life be imortal if life is finite? How is something derived from life be indestructable if Life is not?

Originally posted by Creshosk
"death" in the marvel universe is not final.


That Universes death is final for that Universe, its about degrees cuty cat Girls who get stressy are always the dirtiest

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
That Universes death is final for that Universe, its about degrees cuty cat Girls who get stressy are always the dirtiest But is that universe's death final for all of existence?

If a single universe dies would the phoenix force, which is seperate from the phoenix manifestation(manifestation of the phoenix force in the physical plain), cease to be?

If one universe dies, does it take all the other universes with it?

Originally posted by Creshosk
But is that universe's death final for all of existence?

If a single universe dies would the phoenix force, which is seperate from the phoenix manifestation(manifestation of the phoenix force in the physical plain), cease to be?

If one universe dies, does it take all the other universes with it? The handbook seems to imply that the PF is reborn in each cycle, then is used to give life to the living in the universe.

Originally posted by Creshosk
But is that universe's death final for all of existence?

If a single universe dies would the phoenix force, which is seperate from the phoenix manifestation(manifestation of the phoenix force in the physical plain), cease to be?

If one universe dies, does it take all the other universes with it?

Eventually all Universes die cuty you should understand that.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
The handbook seems to imply that the PF is reborn in each cycle, then is used to give life to the living in the universe.

It actually says it I believe.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
imply

Gee I thought there was no need for theories because everything was right there. . . things that are implied are not actually said. . . guess that whole thing is just your theory isn't it?

And you're STILL not making the distincition between the indestructable imortal phoenix force and the manifestation that is tapping iinto the energy eresevrves of unborn generations. . .

Funny that.

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
Eventually all Universes die cuty you should understand that. So that's a yes? When Timelord was going through alternate realities wiping them out by taking out the key characters within it, each time HE did it it restarted the life cycle for 616?

Oh, no, they don't.

All Universes die girl, of course they do, your so sexy when you try to be brainy

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
All Universes die girl, of course they do, your so sexy when you try to be brainy

Splatterpuss his not a girl - his a guy

A guy with a sissy sig

I feel All dirty E.G. what kind of guy has a sissy sig

A sissy? maybe

Of course that must be it

A sissy

Why does everybody mess with Cresh? We WERE having a good discussion....

Universes end, even multiverses can end. But the creation cycle continues independently of them. The Phoenix Force is unaffected by that, though the manifestation of that Phoenix ends with the end of that universe, and the Phoenix Force (outside the multiverse) puts another "egg" in its place, starting the process I identified all over again.

Ahh fuk it....nobody is listening anymore anyway.

Originally posted by demigawd
Why does everybody mess with Cresh? We WERE having a good discussion....

Universes end, even multiverses can end. But the creation cycle continues independently of them. The Phoenix Force is unaffected by that, though the manifestation of that Phoenix ends with the end of that universe, and the Phoenix Force (outside the multiverse) puts another "egg" in its place, starting the process I identified all over again.

Ahh fuk it....nobody is listening anymore anyway.

The phrase the end of creation springs to mind.

Originally posted by Splatterpuss
The phrase the end of creation springs to mind.

The end of creation isn't cyclical. It happens when TOAA decides it, or if Wanda's Chaos Wave goes beyond even the multiverse! (but she's got it like that )