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We could argue about the definition of "antihero" for all eternity but i'd like to hear other people's opinions on this.

I personally think he's a villain because he's not motivated by justice or even vengeance--just hatred. He could just as easily have started a war on police or even government. He's a cold-blooded killer. So what if he kinda has a sense of honor? He certainly doesn't anymore, and he wouldn't not fight a man unarmed if he didn't know he could kill him anymore. That last sentence confused me. I'm gonna stop talking now.

And in what dimension could the Hulk possibly be considered a hero?

Originally posted by Lord Magnus
We could argue about the definition of "antihero" for all eternity but i'd like to hear other people's opinions on this.

I personally think he's a villain because he's not motivated by justice or even vengeance--just hatred. He could just as easily have started a war on police or even government. He's a cold-blooded killer. So what if he kinda has a sense of honor? He certainly doesn't anymore, and he wouldn't not fight a man unarmed if he didn't know he could kill him anymore. That last sentence confused me. I'm gonna stop talking now.

And in what dimension could the Hulk possibly be considered a hero?
wrong forum.......

It's not really vs. but it doesn't fit anywhere else. Felt like putting it here.

Thoughts?

Anybody?

No? Ah, well.

Hulk is an anti-hero, not because he sides with villans, but his destructive nature often has the good guys pursuing him, getting him to stop by talk or action. And other times he there helping the right forces. Part of it has to do where his mental state currently sits.

Punisher is becoming someone less and less I can root for, because of his all-purpose answer of death to anything. Even Wolverine seems to find more shades of grey in his life, and of course is often defending his mutant family.

hulk is not a here or vilain. i dont know why people concider him a hero. he doesnt go saving peoples lives or nothing. and yes has done many serious things to others. but he doesnt go after the world and do abunch of crap like some of those other insane villains

Originally posted by Lord Magnus
We could argue about the definition of "antihero" for all eternity but i'd like to hear other people's opinions on this.

I personally think he's a villain because he's not motivated by justice or even vengeance--just hatred. He could just as easily have started a war on police or even government. He's a cold-blooded killer. So what if he kinda has a sense of honor? He certainly doesn't anymore, and he wouldn't not fight a man unarmed if he didn't know he could kill him anymore. That last sentence confused me. I'm gonna stop talking now.

And in what dimension could the Hulk possibly be considered a hero?

correction: hate and vengeance, remember his family was killed by the mafia, and yes i agree the punisher actually 'killing' people instead of bringing them to justice is wrong because that is something we call MURDER....and u become a WANTED individual for that and WANTED DEAD....but, he certaintly doesnt hold back nething like other heroes does he..? lol nope

Well the punisher does what the police cant, He kills criminals. But I suppose just because of a few corrupt beuracrats he shouldnt resort to murder. But you can say that by killing crims he is resorting to the very thing hes trying to destroy yada-yada, I would say he is a hero and doing a good job. Serial killers deserve to die...

Ah but there's the rub. By killing the "serial killers" and others one considers "guilty" then one becomes a serial killer. It's a slippery slope. Who is "innocent" and who is "guilty" becomes completly subjective.

"Most Descipable Act: Gunning down a couple for jay-walking, and another fellow for littering. Frank has since switched to de-caf."
From
http://www.geocities.com/marvel_terror/punisher/punisher.html

Words like Hero and Villian are meaningless when concerning the punisher.

How about psycho with a gun?

He's a hero, probably more than the rest of the so-called heroes out there. Why? Because he's not gonna let his compassion stand in the way of what's right. He's willing to do whatever it takes to see justice served, even if it gives him nightmares. Sacrificing himself in this way makes him even more of a hero, at least to me

If I had to draw lines I'd say Villian. He can't destroy everything....hell sometimes he kills people on asumptions, like just being at a mob meating. Good place to be? No. A offence that justifies killing? Absolutly not. Its not that he kills, it that half the time he doesn't even know exactly who he is killing....he is reackless. He doesn't hink about the fallout after he blows someone away. You cut the head off the mob innocent people die in the power vacum you caused in order to get your revenge or "punishment". Was he justified in killing the guys that were involved in his families murder? Yes. But after that he has prolly caused other people just as innocent to get killed because he doesn't react logicly. He is a lunitic with a gun....and might makes right policy. No thought to the concequences, no hesitation, no remorse just pissed off dude going after a generalized wrong. That being said, he is a damn interesting character because of the vague line between good and evil and what he does.

this topic certainly takes on a deeper meaning than just a comic character because we have laws about captial punishment that we debate about everyday. I agree that the punisher is just a lunatic with a gun as much justice he brings he fails to consider people could change. I remember the first time I heard of the punisher and thought this guy is no hero.

He's a villain. You can tell because Batman took time to stop and kick his ass.

Punisher doesn't kill good people, he kills the scum of the earth, he saves people when he can, and tries not to get innocent people involved with his war...i don't concider pun a hero or a villian, he does heroic things when the oportunity arises, but the majority of the time he does what he always wanted to do, kill people who deserve it, and fight in a neverending war...i think of him as a soldier...or a guy with a hobby...

Originally posted by Juntai
He's a villain. You can tell because Batman took time to stop and kick his ass.

Yeah, Batman apparently spent 20 minutes kicking his ass.

Originally posted by scotsmn
He's a hero, probably more than the rest of the so-called heroes out there. Why? Because he's not gonna let his compassion stand in the way of what's right. He's willing to do whatever it takes to see justice served, even if it gives him nightmares. Sacrificing himself in this way makes him even more of a hero, at least to me

then i question your mental health..... or at least your moral code

since when is murdering people "what's right"? he doesn't know why everyone he's killed are doing what they're doing.... maybe one of the mob guys he's killed was an undercover agent... a lot of the drugrunners he's killed will have been forced into that life and may have no other options

he's a freakin maniac and the Avengers should take him down

Fuk the Avengers...

Originally posted by jgiant
Fuk the Avengers...

the Avengers rule..... **** you

Punisher is more on the lines of a hero, but someone who is not as noble as the rest.

As for Hulk, he's a hero, come on. He's destructive, yes, but he fights on the side of good KNOWINGLY and tries his best not to hurt people. The guy f'ed up Onslaught, c'mon lol.

Originally posted by Scoobless
the Avengers rule..... **** you

With about a months prep punisher can take out the Avengers...

Originally posted by jgiant
With about a months prep punisher can take out the Avengers...

with 2 seconds of prep Iron Man can turn the area Punisher is standing in into a smoking crater

Originally posted by Scoobless
with 2 seconds of prep Iron Man can turn the area Punisher is standing in into a smoking crater They won't know what hit them...

Originally posted by jgiant
They won't know what hit them...
Neither will Frank.

Originally posted by The Ion
Neither will Frank. If he goes down at least he takes a few of those jerkoffs with him...

Originally posted by Scoobless
then i question your mental health..... or at least your moral code

since when is murdering people "what's right"? he doesn't know why everyone he's killed are doing what they're doing.... maybe one of the mob guys he's killed was an undercover agent... a lot of the drugrunners he's killed will have been forced into that life and may have no other options

he's a freakin maniac and the Avengers should take him down

For every bad guy he takes out, how many people has he saved by eradicating that cancer? You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Originally posted by scotsmn
For every bad guy he takes out, how many people has he saved by eradicating that cancer? You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

so i guess it doesn't matter that some of those "eggs" are innocent... or even on the side of the law?

Originally posted by gladiator69
hulk is not a here or vilain. i dont know why people concider him a hero. he doesnt go saving peoples lives or nothing. and yes has done many serious things to others. but he doesnt go after the world and do abunch of crap like some of those other insane villains
Wrong. Every Hulk has saved innocent lives, even the "mean" one (grey dude).

The Hulks don't ware capes and they don't go hunt drug dealers, but you better not threaten a little child when he's in the neighbourhood. They don't care that much (or in some cases pretend they don't care) but you are in serious trouble when you try to rob a bank visited by a Hulk.

Originally posted by Scoobless
so i guess it doesn't matter that some of those "eggs" are innocent... or even on the side of the law? No, they took that risk going in there...it is a war, either they are with frank or agianst him there is no time for picking and choosing, its either him or them, and frank will always make sure it is them...

HULK SMASH!

Frank has shot people who surrendered and thrown away their weapons. One time it was a kid ( only defense was it was dark, and didn't see him clearly - nonetheless he said "This is a war. I don't take prisoners.) This was the story where he met Daredevil for the first time.

That doesn't make him a villian...

Has Punisher ever been on the courtroom for his crimes?

I know some other anti-heroes who have...Hulk was at least in the Ultimates, and Namor has been once or twice.

Ohh but of course...he always breaks out...and when he is in jail he takes out the trash there too...the police actually like frank and his work so they try and stay out of his way and not arrest him...

Even if somebody drops their gun that doesn't make them innocent, it just makes them scared. He polishes them off anyway, and i like that! Especially since in New York there's no death penalty...

Originally posted by scotsmn
Even if somebody drops their gun that doesn't make them innocent, it just makes them scared. He polishes them off anyway, and i like that! Especially since in New York there's no death penalty...

It Was A Kid.
Frank went over to him and saw his mistake; held him in his arms saying "A child. Just a child." He knew his code didn't justify it.

Originally posted by jgiant
Ohh but of course...he always breaks out...and when he is in jail he takes out the trash there too...the police actually like frank and his work so they try and stay out of his way and not arrest him...

Have you checked out the latest issues of the new Punisher series?

I remember one issue where the police put this serial killer that everyone hated in the same cell then Frank.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Have you checked out the latest issues of the new Punisher series?

I remember one issue where the police put this serial killer that everyone hated in the same cell then Frank. Hell yeah...

Originally posted by roughrider
It Was A Kid.
Frank went over to him and saw his mistake; held him in his arms saying "A child. Just a child." He knew his code didn't justify it. It wasn't franks fault...either its him or them as i stated before...

I still think he's a villain. I mean, yeah, he thinks he's doing the right thing... but so does Magneto. His entire family was killed by criminals... but wait!!! Magneto's family was killed in a Nazi concentration camp! Dr. Doom's mother lost his soul to Mephisto! He's a KILLER. Not all criminals are evil, and characters like Spider-Man and Daredevil have come to realize that.

I don't consicer magneto a villian really, only when someone does evil to others without provokation is when i consider them a villian...those criminals pun kills deserve puns brand of justice...

Really Punisher is kinda in a way like Magneto. Both want good things but do the entirely wrong way. Punisher isn't truly evil but yeah he is an anti-hero.

PUnisher does more good than most hero's, he kills the criminals before they can harm anymore innocent, all the other hero's send the bad guys to jail just so they can escape and kill again and again...Punisher is the fuking man and kicks the most ass in comic history...

as jgiant said the people that "heros" capture and hand to the police are usually super-powered criminals who just escape and kill again which there is no logic in that, Although the punisher can sometimes cross the line like killing people for jaywalking.

that was when he was druged by jigsaw

Wouldn't it be realistic for Frank Castle to die, and have another person take over as the next Punisher?
In private moments, like the first miniseries, he has admitted to himself that one day he will get too slow or sloppy, he'll be gone, and nothing will really change. He will never get all of them.
He is a character fated to die violently, someday.

Though he has inadventantly killed innocent people, it hasn't been enough to make him stop his mission. I wonder how many it would take.

You don't even understand the character of punisher...if there ever was another punisher he would be destroyed by enraged fans, the new punisher wouldn't last more than one issue...Ever read punisher the end, he goes to jail and kills alot of them there and then they put him in solitary so he cant get at them...he then goes out and kills the last people on earth who are business men who basically destroyed the earth...punisher then lets fire burn him to death...this is a very rough outline of what happened, if you haven't already, read it...and yeah the good he does out weighs the bad...

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Has Punisher ever been on the courtroom for his crimes?

I know some other anti-heroes who have...Hulk was at least in the Ultimates, and Namor has been once or twice.

Yeah... it was when he was drugged by Jigsaw. The lawyer went for the insanity plea and Frank snapped and either escaped or got beaten up... i forget.

I heard Punisher always asks people a question before taking them out. Is it true he whispers "Who is your daddy, and what does he do?" before killing his victims?

He has been to jail more times than that...always escapes though...

Originally posted by scotsmn
I heard Punisher always asks people a question before taking them out. Is it true he whispers "Who is your daddy, and what does he do?" before killing his victims? Naw that is arnold...

Originally posted by jgiant
Naw that is arnold...

But wouldn't it be cool??

I've read the Punisher since the 1980's - for someone who is purported to be the most real vigilante in comics, it would be perfectly natural to think someday his enemies catch up to him and gun him down. It was different when he was a selective assasin in the beginning, but he's gotten more and more brazen since the 80's - let's not even get into that weapons-from-heaven plotline; stay out of the fantasy side.
You know why his first miniseries was called Circle Of Blood? Because it shows for all the people he kills, he just creates more enemies for himself, and they follow the others.

You wonder whether someday a whole lots of heroes will turn on him as too much of a loose cannon; like the super-powered heroes turn on King Thor in his book.

I liked the Batman Punisher fight.

Punisher sees Joker.
Batman senses that Punisher ain't gonna hold back, so he jumps in front of Joker and while staring down Frank, he says "Joker....RUN!"

Great stuff.

that last post shows me the difference between Punisher and other heroes Batman was willing to save his arch nemesis whereas the Punisher would have killed him no thoughts of mercy or remorse. Punisher does the easy thing and just kills the people and it takes more to forgive than kill.

True, but look how effective Batman is....not very.

I see it like this:

Both types of people are needed. Earth needs Punishers and Earth needs Supermen. Otherwise, everyone would be dead or running around unpunished.

Originally posted by roughrider
I've read the Punisher since the 1980's - for someone who is purported to be the most real vigilante in comics, it would be perfectly natural to think someday his enemies catch up to him and gun him down. It was different when he was a selective assasin in the beginning, but he's gotten more and more brazen since the 80's - let's not even get into that weapons-from-heaven plotline; stay out of the fantasy side.
You know why his first miniseries was called Circle Of Blood? Because it shows for all the people he kills, he just creates more enemies for himself, and they follow the others.

You wonder whether someday a whole lots of heroes will turn on him as too much of a loose cannon; like the super-powered heroes turn on King Thor in his book. Superheros have turned on him, wolvie, dd, spidey and they all failed to bring him in, they get fuked up instead...don't get in franks way doesn't matter who you are...and punisher is realistic like batman is but to a lesser extent, punisher cannot be killed off for good it will never happen, if it does i will never read liturature again...

Namor could bring him down.

But I don't think he cares about Punisher...I think he would be on his side.

Originally posted by jgiant
Superheros have turned on him, wolvie, dd, spidey and they all failed to bring him in, they get fuked up instead...don't get in franks way doesn't matter who you are...and punisher is realistic like batman is but to a lesser extent, punisher cannot be killed off for good it will never happen, if it does i will never read liturature again...

I mean really turn on him - no PIS or CIS. We forget, Frank is just a normal man with guns. He doesn't even have as much experience dealing with super-powered types as Batman, who always keeps detailed lists on his friends weaknesses, just in case. And has access to unreal weaponry.
For all that's been said, it doesn't mean Punisher is not interesting - quite the opposite. Someone like him who stands defiantly over the line is a needed counterpoint in mainstream comics. But there is always some writing manipulation that is happening; Batman's weakness, about being unable to kill, is hardly ever exploited.

Originally posted by roughrider
I've read the Punisher since the 1980's - for someone who is purported to be the most real vigilante in comics, it would be perfectly natural to think someday his enemies catch up to him and gun him down. It was different when he was a selective assasin in the beginning, but he's gotten more and more brazen since the 80's - let's not even get into that weapons-from-heaven plotline; stay out of the fantasy side.
You know why his first miniseries was called Circle Of Blood? Because it shows for all the people he kills, he just creates more enemies for himself, and they follow the others.

You wonder whether someday a whole lots of heroes will turn on him as too much of a loose cannon; like the super-powered heroes turn on King Thor in his book.

Frank was sort of replaced once, it was in the Punisher 2099 series, in Franks journal it said "You who find this - I charge you to carry on my work" and it was found by a cop whos family was killed by criminals

Calling Frank a hero is debatable, but calling him a villain is retarded
It is not just what you do that makes you a hero, it is why you do it

Originally posted by Lord Magnus
It's not really vs. but it doesn't fit anywhere else. Felt like putting it here.

Thoughts?

Anybody?

No? Ah, well.

Late reply on this one, but it fits in the Comic Book Forum.

Moved.

again punisher is the most effective hero in the business

punisher doesnt look like a hero there with that face.http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/619/punisherwolverine6dp.jpg