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so we know who ronin is, finally. can dd's protege take out the greatest protege of the bats?

yes she can........

She could take him. Especially with some one sided prep. Maybe not a majority of times though...

Yep. Combination of DD and Bullseye's fighting styles? I'd say she could take him.

Originally posted by leonidas
so we know who ronin is, finally. can dd's protege take out the greatest protege of the bats? dude she aint so tough, those ninjas effed her up, elektra takes those ninjas out by the hundreds, i would seriously say nightwing, he can beat her befoe she catches on

Originally posted by leonidas
so we know who ronin is, finally. can dd's protege take out the greatest protege of the bats? the greatest protege of bats, is bats........tim drake

actauly night wing would own tim drake. also all echo needs is some knifes which she has and also sonic attacks wont work on her either because she can't hear.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
actauly night wing would own tim drake. also all echo needs is some knifes which she has and also sonic attacks wont work on her either because she can't hear. dude she got messed up by some weak ass hand ninjas....stop giving her more credit than she has earned, nightwing has been training since a boy with one of the best there is, and is still alive to tell it, he wins,.....and tim drake would own nightwing, drake ends up being he new batman.

Originally posted by King KAM
dude she got messed up by some weak ass hand ninjas....stop giving her more credit than she has earned, nightwing has been training since a boy with one of the best there is, and is still alive to tell it, he wins,.....and tim drake would own nightwing, drake ends up being he new batman.
when do they ever say he ends up being the new batman. also tim drake would get owned by night wing. night wing was always the one with the most potential tim is just he one who listen and fallows what ever batman says the most. also ur basing one fight of echos. so echo had one bad showing have u even read her original comics? she been around a very long time she use to be called white hand if im not mistaken she has teamed up with wolverine and other super heros. also echo was traiend by stick who would beat the living hell out of batman. also she has just as good aim as bull eye and has study tapes of many of DD and bulls eye fights. she ahs skills that night wing has neevr seen befor and she can easiliy copy every mvoe he does.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
when do they ever say he ends up being the new batman. also tim drake would get owned by night wing. night wing was always the one with the most potential tim is just he one who listen and fallows what ever batman says the most. also ur basing one fight of echos. so echo had one bad showing have u even read her original comics? she been around a very long time she use to be called white hand if im not mistaken she has teamed up with wolverine and other super heros. also echo was traiend by stick who would beat the living hell out of batman. also she has just as good aim as bull eye and has study tapes of many of DD and bulls eye fights. she ahs skills that night wing has neevr seen befor and she can easiliy copy every mvoe he does. wow....you have made me change my mind......





















NOT! Nightwing is the next best thing to bats and your saying that he loses to a 2-bit taskmaster, my ass, hell yeah she had a bad showing, nightwing wouldve cleaned their clocks, and she wont know whats coming at her when nightwing blows her to smitherines, and in the future teen titans it shows that drake is the new batman, so it means that he was worthy, im willing to take it farther and say he passes d'ick simply because he DOES listen, listening to your sensei pays off in the end.

Originally posted by King KAM
wow....you have made me change my mind......



acatuly it showed him to be the new night wing, not batman.
dude again u have never read a comic besides one with echo in it.
also if u did not know this it was more like 200 ninjas. all of which are amazingly deadly. I dought night wing could take them at all.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
Originally posted by King KAM
wow....you have made me change my mind......



acatuly it showed him to be the new night wing, not batman.
dude again u have never read a comic besides one with echo in it.
also if u did not know this it was more like 200 ninjas. all of which are amazingly deadly. I dought night wing could take them at all. i bet he could actually

dought it. also u need to read up on echo befor she was echo she quit imprssive.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
dought it. also u need to read up on echo befor she was echo she quit imprssive. but she has bad showings,you need to read up more on nightwing, AND!!!!! time drake is a better Robin than the both before him, his more athletic and smarter, making him the best robin ever and the future batman

Originally posted by King KAM
but she has bad showings,you need to read up more on nightwing, AND!!!!! time drake is a better Robin than the both before him, his more athletic and smarter, making him the best robin ever and the future batman
night wing has ahd bad showing him self. also she had one abd showing and vs 200 ninjas or more thats not realy that bad. aso again ur wrong my friend ngiht wing is actaully more athetic and I not sure but I think he was also stated as brighter. he also has more potential then even batman.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
night wing has ahd bad showing him self. also she had one abd showing and vs 200 ninjas or more thats not realy that bad. aso again ur wrong my friend ngiht wing is actaully more athetic and I not sure but I think he was also stated as brighter. he also has more potential then even batman. nope, DC say it themself that tim is more gifted.....sorry dog....

when did they ever say that? night wing was stated to be even mroe agile and better reflexes then batman himself.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
when did they ever say that? night wing was stated to be even mroe agile and better reflexes then batman himself. go read a bio on tim drake.

how about u post a source an official source.

http://starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/young_justice/robin/robin.html

i said an official one

Originally posted by wolverine8888
i said an official one all that info is just as good as offficial and you know it, your just being a poor sport

Nightwing wins. He beats Drake too.

Originally posted by The Ion
Nightwing wins. He beats Drake too. because he is older and strionger, drake will pass him though, and you know it.

Not really. Drake will get better and so will Nightwing. Bats even admitted Dick could surpass him one day. Tim is the detective, Dick is the fighter. That's the way it'll always be.

Originally posted by The Ion
Not really. Drake will get better and so will Nightwing. Bats even admitted Dick could surpass him one day. Tim is the detective, Dick is the fighter. That's the way it'll always be. nah, i give it to tim both ways in the end.....but hey we cant always agree, we will just have to wait and see when they FINALLY kill off bruce wayne

wasn't Grayson Batman already? not to mention Nightwing lead the orginal teen Titans, a group of Outsiders and even the JLA for a time? sounds to me he's better than Tim Drake could ever dream to be and could be even better than Batman one day.

Originally posted by leonidas
so we know who ronin is, finally. can dd's protege take out the greatest protege of the bats?


Echo was not Daredevil's protege! was she? She was his enemy and lover.

Daredevil only just beat her before by cheating (using the darkness) and in there final battle it was a sort of draw because she left to blind Kingpin.

She got a bad press in New Avengers. She shouldn't have been knocked out so easily..........

she has the skills of everyone she sees. She has already got DD, Bullseye's, numerous Kung Fu and boxing champions. Nightwing has experience on his side, but she has far greater skill. Daredevil's skills alone would be a match for nightwing, not including the others.

I think Echo wins this 6 or 7/10

Originally posted by The Ion
Not really. Drake will get better and so will Nightwing. Bats even admitted Dick could surpass him one day. Tim is the detective, Dick is the fighter. That's the way it'll always be.


I agree

Originally posted by Mainstream
wasn't Grayson Batman already? not to mention Nightwing lead the orginal teen Titans, a group of Outsiders and even the JLA for a time? sounds to me he's better than Tim Drake could ever dream to be and could be even better than Batman one day.
Yup. Batman thinks Nightwing is the best team leader in DC which Dick has proved time and time again.

Originally posted by Mainstream
wasn't Grayson Batman already? not to mention Nightwing lead the orginal teen Titans, a group of Outsiders and even the JLA for a time? sounds to me he's better than Tim Drake could ever dream to be and could be even better than Batman one day.

I agree

Originally posted by willRules
Echo was not Daredevil's protege! was she? She was his enemy and lover.

Daredevil only just beat her before by cheating (using the darkness) and in there final battle it was a sort of draw because she left to blind Kingpin.

She got a bad press in New Avengers. She shouldn't have been knocked out so easily..........

she has the skills of everyone she sees. She has already got DD, Bullseye's, numerous Kung Fu and boxing champions. Nightwing has experience on his side, but she has far greater skill. Daredevil's skills alone would be a match for nightwing, not including the others.

I think Echo wins this 6 or 7/10
yup

show tim drake some damn respect.....haters.....

Originally posted by wolverine8888
when do they ever say he ends up being the new batman. also tim drake would get owned by night wing. night wing was always the one with the most potential tim is just he one who listen and fallows what ever batman says the most.

Goodness .....stick to Wolverine (or Wulbareen in your case) and stop bringing hyperbole (and outright lies) to other characters.
Tim Drake has more potential than Dick Grayson.
Batman said so in Hush when he compared Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Tim Drake (and he also explained why Grayson outgrew the Robin mantle, why Todd died, and why Drake will be the greatest detective in the world some day).
Tim has also gotten the best training from Batman (explained in other writings to stem from Batman swearing that what happened to Tood would never happen again). Tim even received some attention from Shiva.
Also Tim Drake was good enough to find out who Batman was by his own self ....he wasn't adopted like Grayson, and wasn't quasi-apprehended like Todd.
Also note Drake was considered good enough to be let off on solo missions .....years younger than Grayson was when he flew off the nest.

When it comes to potential Drake has gobs more than Grayson.
No disrespect to Grayson ....the guy is amazing, and will one day probably be better than Bruce himself. And he has been given a lot of responsibility (in the Obsidian arc he was even selected by Bruce himself to head the JLA .....which says a whole LOT on just how good Nightwing is). Thus Nightwing is no slouch, and someday he shall surpass the Batman himself.
However in terms of potential Tim Drake is doing things Nightwing did when he was far older.
Tim has been better trained.
And Tim is a far better thinker and tactician.

The only thing that Grayson has over Drake is obviously athletic ability (in particular exceedingly well-honed agility), as well as a whole lot more experience (primarily due to his age). Thus Grayson is actually more capable than Drake (in the same way a 35yr old brain-surgeon with an IQ of 145 is far more capable than a 17 yr old pre-med student with an IQ of 198, but the teen has more potential).

However in terms of potential Tim Drake is the best. So when you say Nightwing has the most 'potential' you are either mistaken, lying, or a medley of the two.

Have a nice day W8888.

Originally posted by spetznaz
Goodness .....stick to Wolverine (or Wulbareen in your case) and stop bringing hyperbole (and outright lies) to other characters.
Tim Drake has more potential than Dick Grayson.
Batman said so in Hush when he compared Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Tim Drake (and he also explained why Grayson outgrew the Robin mantle, why Todd died, and why Drake will be the greatest detective in the world some day).
Tim has also gotten the best training from Batman (explained in other writings to stem from Batman swearing that what happened to Tood would never happen again). Tim even received some attention from Shiva.
Also Tim Drake was good enough to find out who Batman was by his own self ....he wasn't adopted like Grayson, and wasn't quasi-apprehended like Todd.
Also note Drake was considered good enough to be let off on solo missions .....years younger than Grayson was when he flew off the nest.

When it comes to potential Drake has gobs more than Grayson.
No disrespect to Grayson ....the guy is amazing, and will one day probably be better than Bruce himself. And he has been given a lot of responsibility (in the Obsidian arc he was even selected by Bruce himself to head the JLA .....which says a whole LOT on just how good Nightwing is). Thus Nightwing is no slouch, and someday he shall surpass the Batman himself.
However in terms of potential Tim Drake is doing things Nightwing did when he was far older.
Tim has been better trained.
And Tim is a far better thinker and tactician.

The only thing that Grayson has over Drake is obviously athletic ability (in particular exceedingly well-honed agility), as well as a whole lot more experience (primarily due to his age). Thus Grayson is actually more capable than Drake (in the same way a 35yr old brain-surgeon with an IQ of 145 is far more capable than a 17 yr old pre-med student with an IQ of 198, but the teen has more potential).

However in terms of potential Tim Drake is the best. So when you say Nightwing has the most 'potential' you are either mistaken, lying, or a medley of the two.

Have a nice day W8888. thank you, you rock

Tim is my favorite, but I am curious about his potential. If he has so much potential, how come his teenage self beat his late 20's self in "The future is Now?" Batman Drake wasn't injured or tired but Robin Drake had the snot beat out of him by Batman drake in the tombstone scene. All of a sudden Robin Drake get sthe smack down on his adult self? One with 10 years more experience, better suit, and better tech?

Originally posted by AcousticDoc
Tim is my favorite, but I am curious about his potential. If he has so much potential, how come his teenage self beat his late 20's self in "The future is Now?" Batman Drake wasn't injured or tired but Robin Drake had the snot beat out of him by Batman drake in the tombstone scene. All of a sudden Robin Drake get sthe smack down on his adult self? One with 10 years more experience, better suit, and better tech? its called PIS, so drake does end up being Batz

Originally posted by spetznaz
Goodness .....stick to Wolverine (or Wulbareen in your case) and stop bringing hyperbole (and outright lies) to other characters.
Tim Drake has more potential than Dick Grayson.
Batman said so in Hush when he compared Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Tim Drake (and he also explained why Grayson outgrew the Robin mantle, why Todd died, and why Drake will be the greatest detective in the world some day).
Tim has also gotten the best training from Batman (explained in other writings to stem from Batman swearing that what happened to Tood would never happen again). Tim even received some attention from Shiva.
Also Tim Drake was good enough to find out who Batman was by his own self ....he wasn't adopted like Grayson, and wasn't quasi-apprehended like Todd.
Also note Drake was considered good enough to be let off on solo missions .....years younger than Grayson was when he flew off the nest.

When it comes to potential Drake has gobs more than Grayson.
No disrespect to Grayson ....the guy is amazing, and will one day probably be better than Bruce himself. And he has been given a lot of responsibility (in the Obsidian arc he was even selected by Bruce himself to head the JLA .....which says a whole LOT on just how good Nightwing is). Thus Nightwing is no slouch, and someday he shall surpass the Batman himself.
However in terms of potential Tim Drake is doing things Nightwing did when he was far older.
Tim has been better trained.
And Tim is a far better thinker and tactician.

The only thing that Grayson has over Drake is obviously athletic ability (in particular exceedingly well-honed agility), as well as a whole lot more experience (primarily due to his age). Thus Grayson is actually more capable than Drake (in the same way a 35yr old brain-surgeon with an IQ of 145 is far more capable than a 17 yr old pre-med student with an IQ of 198, but the teen has more potential).

However in terms of potential Tim Drake is the best. So when you say Nightwing has the most 'potential' you are either mistaken, lying, or a medley of the two.

Have a nice day W8888.

how am I all out lieng? use some prove. also u go look at the wolverine post fighting skill feats up I mrde ur ass look like a fool there. just like when u said (Daredevil vs wolverine) the original comic had daredevil curb stomping wolverine. Ya u remeber that down right lie which I then caught u lieing and proved u were lieing and then in the same thread u made up another lie. from every thing I know about night wing batman him self stated he was the best leader. he is far more agile then drake. he a better fighter then drake and I betting he smarter also.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
how am I all out lieng? use some prove. also u go look at the wolverine post fighting skill feats up I mrde ur ass look like a fool there. just like when u said (Daredevil vs wolverine) the original comic had daredevil curb stomping wolverine. Ya u remeber that down right lie which I then caught u lieing and proved u were lieing and then in the same thread u made up another lie. from every thing I know about night wing batman him self stated he was the best leader. he is far more agile then drake. he a better fighter then drake and I betting he smarter also.

I cannot even make out what you are saying.
As for the DD vs Wolverine thing you are (trying to) talk about ....you must have me mistaken for someone else because I don't even know what you are talking about (and you making an @$$ out of me would be 100% impossible kid).
And you are talking about some 'lie' that you are not even naming .....come on kid ....even you can do better than that!
I've always known you love to stretch things a bit (goodness, you are known in the forum for just that), however stay away from the outright lies (or at least back them up kid).
You say that I 'remember' that lie ....well, I do not.
Thus please elucidate it ...please. Tell me what 'lie' I said concerning DD and Wolverine .....show the people in the forum.
Come on ....bust me .....please!
Please ...you can't! Because it doesn't exist!
If you can please go ahead .....link it .....prove me a liar ....show me where I lied about DareDevil and Wolverine.
Punk kid.

As for Grayson vs Drake let me chew it up a bit for your mind ....Grayson is more capable than Drake (as stated), but Drake has greater potential than Grayson (as stated). Let your mind ruminate on that for a wee bit.
Drake is far smarter (even before he became Robin he proved his smarts by being one of the very few to deduce Bruce Wayne and Batman were the same being), and Batman said in Hush that he will be the best one day. He even talks about Grayson, Todd and Drake.

Have a nice afternoon.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
how am I all out lieng? use some prove. also u go look at the wolverine post fighting skill feats up I mrde ur ass look like a fool there. just like when u said (Daredevil vs wolverine) the original comic had daredevil curb stomping wolverine. Ya u remeber that down right lie which I then caught u lieing and proved u were lieing and then in the same thread u made up another lie. from every thing I know about night wing batman him self stated he was the best leader. he is far more agile then drake. he a better fighter then drake and I betting he smarter also.

I'm still waiting, punk!
Prove it ....show where I said anything concerning DareDevil and Wolverine that was a lie ....in fact anything about DD and Wolvie.

This is why I said I do NOT hate you on the thread where you claimed Draco, Long Pig and I hated you.
I do not hate you.
I CANNOT hate you.

Why?

Because you are simply too pathetic to hate.
And LP is probably correct when he depicts you as a retard on that banner .....you act like one (and your spelling and lack of logical coherence alludes to that as well.....gosh darn blazes kid, I'd sue your teachers if I were you because I've seen Macaque monkeys in a zoo spell better than you do).

Oh, just got a thought .....hopefully you are not a macaque?

Originally posted by spetznaz
Batman said so in Hush when he compared Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Tim Drake (and he also explained why Grayson outgrew the Robin mantle, why Todd died, and why Drake will be the greatest detective in the world some day).

Yes but Batman also went on about how amazing Nightwing is and how he will take centre stage one day. He said Tim will be the world's greatest detective, but not acrobat or fighter. I think he implys that Nightwing will be.................

Originally posted by willRules
Yes but Batman also went on about how amazing Nightwing is and how he will take centre stage one day. He said Tim will be the world's greatest detective, but not acrobat or fighter. I think he implys that Nightwing will be................. nope hes a better fighter also, grayson is just a better acrobat.

When has Drake ever shown himself to be a better fighter? Never, that's when.

Close match. I give the slight edge to Nightwing. If they fought again after that though, it's gonna be Echo coming out victorious.

Originally posted by willRules
Yes but Batman also went on about how amazing Nightwing is and how he will take centre stage one day. He said Tim will be the world's greatest detective, but not acrobat or fighter. I think he implys that Nightwing will be.................

To be honest Grayson is most certainly the better acrobat .....by a considerable factor. Drake is good, but he is no Grayson (neither is Batman for that matter).
As for being a fighter Drake is better trained (again due to Batman swearing to ensure what happened to Todd did not occur again), however Grayson has more experience (and age) on Drake thus he is probably a better fighter (as I said Grayson is more capable, but Drake has greater potential).
However being a better ...I mean, currently more capable ..... fighter doesn't mean Grayson is numero uno.
After all Cassandra Cain (the current Batgirl) can wipe the floor with Grayson AND Drake ....at the same time.
Thus it is not mere fighting ability.
As Batman told Batgirl in the FreshBlood arc, Batgirl is by far the superior fighter, but in order to take over part of the mantle of the Bat she would require to enhance her strengths in other areas.
For example detective work.
Yet when it comes to fighting she has no peer when it comes to pure fighting profeciency. In H2H she is simply perfect.
However it takes more to be complete .....being able to beat anyone you meet goes a long way, but if you are facing more intellectual foes you'd better be able to think or else you are going down.

Anyways, Grayson is amazing. Add the fact that Batman tapped him to head the JLA (the freakin' JLA) during the whole Obsidian Age thing, and it goes to show that Nightwing can very well take over the mantle of the Batman when that day comes.
Add to this the fact that Tim Drake keeps swearig that he will NEVER be Batman because he doesn't want to.

However, Batman still said that Drake had the greatest potential, and would one day be the greatest detective. Drake is also the best trained in every single aspect (from combat to detective work), and furthermore he was also given independence at a FAR younger age than Grayson. To be honest Grayson had to 'quit' being Robin (and become Nightwing), and even move to Bludhaven to get some independence.
Bruce however thought Drake was ready at a far far far younger age than Grayson.
Drake has also proved far more profecient mental skills ...even before he was Robin (eg he was one of the few to deduce who Batman was, and he did this as a kid).

Grayson is more capable ....although that is largely a component of more experience due to his age (back to the analogy I used in a prior post of a 35yr old doctor versus a 17 yr old genius).
Drake however has more potential, and if things continue as they are by the time he is Grayson's current age he will basically be Batman. Currently he is ALMOST at Grayson's capability, yet he is far far younger.

Potential vs Capability.
And W8888 was talking about potential, and he also was talking about 'thinking' ability.
In both Drake wins.

Now ...if we are talking about agility .....

Grayson quit being Robin and took on the Nightwing name at Age 18. Drake just now moved to Bludhaven at Age 17. Not really far, far younger.

Originally posted by The Ion
Grayson quit being Robin and took on the Nightwing name at Age 18. Drake just now moved to Bludhaven at Age 17. Not really far, far younger.

True ....if I was talking about the move to Bludhaven.
While Tim just moved to the 'haven (and I believe he did not move there alone ....he has 'backup' from Batgirl, basically the 2 of them 'taking care' of the city) he had far ore carte blanche at a much younger age than Grayson.
They might have moved to the 'haven at around the same age, but up to the move Grayson was still under the direct supervision of Bruce (and for that matter a far shorter leash).
Drake on the other hand was virtually quasi-autonomous. Not fully so, not even by a long shot (after all this is Batman we are talking about, and even now he still has a lot of influence on all the members of the Bat family ....even Nightwing's Outsiders are still shadow financed by a corporation associated with Wayne enterprises, something that p!$$e$ of Grayson to no end .....something that was even made worse when Slade was impersonating Batman and making the Outsiders do his bidding).

Anyways, the two 'kids' moved to Bludhaven around the same age.
Thus you are correct that it is NOT 'far far younger.'
However I was talking about the granting of any semblance of semi/demi/quasi/any/etc - autonomy.

Drake got it far far younger than Grayson.
Grayson in fact had to leave Batman over the whole nanny factor.

Yeah and thats where we fundamentally disagree. You could twist the facts any which way you want to make it seem Dick is still under the leash of Batman. I could twist it to make it seem Time is still under the leash of Batman and Victor Stone.

Originally posted by The Ion
Yeah and thats where we fundamentally disagree. You could twist the facts any which way you want to make it seem Dick is still under the leash of Batman. I could twist it to make it seem Time is still under the leash of Batman and Victor Stone.

True.
In fact I could show scans of one thing, and you show scans of the exact opposite.
That's the problem with comics .....since it is fiction, and not only that but fiction penned by different writers, there is always a lot of overlap.
For example (since you call yourself Ion) take GL Kyle.
Kyle has been drawn as having power levels that approach what he had as Ion, and at other times shown struggling to do something that he should be able to do with abounding ease.

As for the Drake/Grayson thing.
The story arc I was quoting from shows Drake virtually been given a blessing by Bruce.
In JLA:Obsidian Age we see Grayson been 'annointed' to lead the JLA (and thus been given a major pat on the back by Bruce).
In KnightFall it was Jean (Azrael) who was given the mantle!

All 3 can be subjectively interpreted.

Anyways ....we can agree to disagree.
LOL.
At least we both believe Superman can beat the Thing (from the Spiky Thing vs Superman thread).

Ok now, quick question. Do you think Tim's independence is due more to his skill level or the circumstances? Dick was taken in by Bruce at the age of 8. He was his father whereas Jack Drake died only recently. Tim always had a family outside of Batman so you could make the case that he was always more independent from Bats.

Originally posted by The Ion
Ok now, quick question. Do you think Tim's independence is due more to his skill level or the circumstances? Dick was taken in by Bruce at the age of 8. He was his father whereas Jack Drake died only recently. Tim always had a family outside of Batman so you could make the case that he was always more independent from Bats.

Good thinking.