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S'ym once broke Wolverine's Adamantium claw.

Originally posted by long pig
S'ym once broke Wolverine's Adamantium claw. ohh ya

S'ym then through it at colossus and it went through his shoulder.

So who would emerge victorious?

after seeing that scan i would say S'ym however i did see a comic where he was having a hard time with colossus so I don't know.

I don't know what comic it was but it was at the end of inferno

found it it's New Mutants (1st series) # 73

He didn't have a hard time at all. He toyed with him, Colossus admitted inferiority and then Wolverine tried to cut him. He couldn't even pierce his skin, but S'ym turned to smash him and Colossus kicked him in a teleporter.

PIS

I don't think that happened in the issue I stated however I could be wrong, do you have a scan, and also what makes you think he was toying with Colossus I hope it's not because he was joking he did the same thing when darkchild cut off his head.

Because it's clear he was superior in strength/speed/durability and he made it known while kicking Colossus' ass.
Colossus even said so.

he did what did he say I don't have the comic I used to but it got lost.

Colossus that is

from what I could tell S'ym was only a little better then colossus, it wasn't like he knocked him to the moon or over powered him.

so..after all these replies..no one still knows..

S'ym is like Chief. The only one he answers to is a Master. I don't think Hulk could take Dr. Strange who is a master. These two are close in a match though. I guess i'd give it to S'ym though since it appears his feats are greater than Hulks...besides the whole mountain range thing Hulk did in SW...that was darn impressive.

S'ym has the advantage in a mystical plane of reality. Under regular conditions on Earth, Hulk has the advantage. Hulk is one of the few people who have gone into mystical realms and still kicked ass. Since his strength can continually empirically increase, Hulk can hang with people who's strength can defy physics. I think the best example around is from defenders a couple months ago, Hulk survived a fight with dozens of mindless ones in Dormammu's dimension.

S'ym was once beaten by Cable

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
S'ym was once beaten by Cable

Hulk does not have any sort of telepathy now does he?
And i don't think it was in New Mutants. That picture long pig gave is from The Ballad of Belasco.

it is VERY difficult to beat savage hulk in a purely physical confrontation. that titannus issue aside it hasn't happened often. s'ym's tough, but . . . i'll still go with hulk.

Originally posted by leonidas
it is VERY difficult to beat savage hulk in a purely physical confrontation. that titannus issue aside it hasn't happened often. s'ym's tough, but . . . i'll still go with hulk.

It doesn't say Savage Hulk. it just says "Hulk". And are you telling me he couldn't be knocked out with brute force if it's done at the start of the fight?

i'm saying that in 40 years, it has been done less than a handful of times. it's possible, but not likely.

Hulk has crumpled adamantium before and I believe he could beat Sym but if he was not quickly enaraged he could lose

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm saying that in 40 years, it has been done less than a handful of times. it's possible, but not likely.

40 years of CIS and PIS don't matter here.
I agree with you that Hulk is crazy strong, and crazy resistant, but i wouldn't be surprised if S'ym won this fight. The way i see it happening (comic-wise) would be S'ym somehow surprising Hulk, knocking him around a few times, and eventually overloading him and knocking him out.
Next issue, Hulk for some reason gets uber-p1ssed off and beats the crap out of S'ym.
Or something like that...

er, did you just say 40 years of stories are cis/pis?

with 40 years worth of stories to SUPPORT his strength, i'd say the times he was BEATEN using force were the incidents of pis/cis . . .

possible sym could get a ko -- especially if he surprised hulk. but in a straight up fist fight, i still side with hulk.

Originally posted by Eternity
Hulk has crumpled adamantium before and I believe he could beat Sym but if he was not quickly enaraged he could lose

That is grade B adamantium. Don't even dare compare it to grade A adamantium.

Originally posted by leonidas
er, did you just say 40 years of stories are cis/pis?

with 40 years worth of stories to SUPPORT his strength, i'd say the times he was BEATEN using force were the incidents of pis/cis . . .

possible sym could get a ko -- especially if he surprised hulk. but in a straight up fist fight, i still side with hulk.

I don't see it that way. I could very well bring out the wildcard, aka Wolverine. Since he appeared as a Hulk villain (of all things) his entire career as a character has been one big bungle of CIS/PIS.
By your logic, since he's consistently been represented through CIS and PIS, the only occurences of CIS and PIS were when he lost fights. (for the record, i used to think like this as well a long time ago).

Originally posted by leonidas
er, did you just say 40 years of stories are cis/pis?

with 40 years worth of stories to SUPPORT his strength, i'd say the times he was BEATEN using force were the incidents of pis/cis . . .

possible sym could get a ko -- especially if he surprised hulk. but in a straight up fist fight, i still side with hulk.
You are right

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
That is grade B adamantium. Don't even dare compare it to grade A adamantium.



I don't see it that way. I could very well bring out the wildcard, aka Wolverine. Since he appeared as a Hulk villain (of all things) his entire career as a character has been one big bungle of CIS/PIS.
By your logic, since he's consistently been represented through CIS and PIS, the only occurences of CIS and PIS were when he lost fights. (for the record, i used to think like this as well a long time ago).

pis/cis are by definition examples of characters acting OUT of character -- ie -- they go against what has been clearly shown to be the normal perimeters of a character. if he has been shown to be one way for almost his whole career, that is not pis/cis. i hate wolverine, but he RARELY loses. there have been MANY moments of pis/cis in wolvie's career, but on the whole he rarely loses.

again, the bulk of evidence supports them, whether you agree with their depictions or not.

Originally posted by kgkg


Would you like me to post the one-shot = knock-out pic which is more recent by the way? eyes

Originally posted by leonidas
pis/cis are by definition examples of characters acting OUT of character -- ie -- they go against what has been clearly shown to be the normal perimeters of a character. if he has been shown to be one way for almost his whole career, that is not pis/cis. i hate wolverine, but he RARELY loses. there have been MANY moments of pis/cis in wolvie's career, but on the whole he rarely loses.

again, the bulk of evidence supports them, whether you agree with their depictions or not.

You didn't get my point. Hulk can and HAS been knocked out. If the punch/kick/whatever is strong enough and at the beginning of the battle, it can and has happened. I called it PIS/CIS that he hasn't had it happen more often, because he's gone up against stronger/tougher characters that could've done it just as well as the ones that did knock him out did, but they DIDN'T. How can that be explained if not by CIS/PIS?

SO you agree that a short canadian with claws and a healing factor can't be knocked out by Hulk huh? ( this from his earliest appearances till today) ?

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
Would you like me to post the one-shot = knock-out pic which is more recent by the way? eyes was it savage Hulk or Prof

so you're saying characters job to a character with basically infinite strength? we'll agree to disagree on this issue.

as far as wolverine:

unfortunately, i have no choice BUT to agree with it. he's also fought many other hulk-level opponents in the past (wendigo, wrecker to name just a couple off the top of my head) and had success against them. what else can we conclude but that he IS able to fight these types of guys? i hate it, but the evidence FOR it is overwhelming.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm saying that in 40 years, it has been done less than a handful of times. it's possible, but not likely.

Originally posted by leonidas
so you're saying characters job to a character with basically infinite strength? we'll agree to disagree on this issue.

as far as wolverine:

unfortunately, i have no choice BUT to agree with it. he's also fought many other hulk-level opponents in the past (wendigo, wrecker to name just a couple off the top of my head) and had success against them. what else can we conclude but that he IS able to fight these types of guys? i hate it, but the evidence FOR it is overwhelming. Wolverine gets extra powers because he is from Canada.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler


plz don't bring namor into this

Originally posted by kgkg
Wolverine gets extra powers because he is from Canada.

Originally posted by kgkg


plz don't bring namor into this

doh

Originally posted by kgkg
was it savage Hulk or Prof

The OP didn't mention
And your scan is indeed quite old


Originally posted by leonidas
so you're saying characters job to a character with basically infinite strength? we'll agree to disagree on this issue.

as far as wolverine:

unfortunately, i have no choice BUT to agree with it. he's also fought many other hulk-level opponents in the past (wendigo, wrecker to name just a couple off the top of my head) and had success against them. what else can we conclude but that he IS able to fight these types of guys? i hate it, but the evidence FOR it is overwhelming.

again, you miss my point. The point being that it's happened, it CAN happen, characters had the potential and opportunities to make it happen again, but they didn't. That is CIS/PIS.

as for wolverine:

Compare his feats to his powers. Ask yourself if they match in any way

Originally posted by kgkg


plz don't bring namor into this



I'm not sure...if I can...restrain myself.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler


I'm not sure...if I can...restrain myself.

Do it

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
The OP didn't mention

Well most assume it is Savage Hulk because that's the original and the "normal Hulk"

Prof Hulk isn't as bad and isn't all that powerful

He whould loose most fights ( ie Jugs etc)


Looks old was Published in: July 1999

Doesn’t prove anything tho lol

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
Do it

No...I...must...resist!

Originally posted by kgkg
Well most assume it is Savage Hulk because that's the original and the "normal Hulk"

Prof Hulk isn't as bad and isn't all that powerful

He whould loose most fights ( ie Jugs etc)


Looks old was Published in: July 1999

Doesn’t prove anything tho lol

Actually i always thought Mindless Hulk was the original and "normal Hulk".

No he isn't. But it only took a punch to take him out.

Which "most fights" are you refering to?

I agree. It doesn't prove anything.

PS: why the hell are we arguing Superman vs. Hulk? This is S'ym vs. Hulk

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
PS: why the hell are we arguing Superman vs. Hulk? This is S'ym vs. Hulk i don't know Superman gets me amped

Originally posted by kgkg
i don't know Superman gets me amped

yeah.....he does that to people

S'ym still wins

<<Compare his feats to his powers. Ask yourself if they match in any way>>

not saying it makes sense. it doesn't HAVE to make sense. it IS. it has been SHOWN with CONSISTENCY. therefore, much as i don't like it and disagree, it needs to be accepted. it's why i stopped buying wolverine long before i quit comics altogether.

and you're right, i am missing you're point about hulk. give me an example of someone who you claim had a chance and didn't ko hulk by physical means because of pis/cis. and i never claimed it CAN'T happen. long ago in this thread i said it doesn't happen often. i even allowed that sym might do it. i said i doubt he could and backed it up by saying it hasn't happened often. since it hasn't happened often, i say the chance is in hulk's favor. since it HAS happened, sym HAS a chance.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Compare his feats to his powers. Ask yourself if they match in any way>>

not saying it makes sense. it doesn't HAVE to make sense. it IS. it has been SHOWN with CONSISTENCY. therefore, much as i don't like it and disagree, it needs to be accepted. it's why i stopped buying wolverine long before i quit comics altogether.

and you're right, i am missing you're point about hulk. give me an example of someone who you claim had a chance and didn't ko hulk by physical means because of pis/cis. and i never claimed it CAN'T happen. long ago in this thread i said it doesn't happen often. i even allowed that sym might do it. i said i doubt he could and backed it up by saying it hasn't happened often. since it hasn't happened often, i say the chance is in hulk's favor. since it HAS happened, sym HAS a chance.

Thor and Juggs could have concievably done it. Hercules as well, the Super-Humanoid, and more.

As for wolverine, consistently used PIS is still PIS. The fact that he does it so often does not mean that when he acts within his given capabilities, THAT's PIS. It means that's the only decent writing.

Namor, Juggernaut, Abomination, Black Bolt, Iron Man. I belive all of these guys have kncoed the Hulk out there are probably more but I don't know them all.

Originally posted by Warmonger
Namor, Juggernaut, Abomination, Black Bolt, Iron Man. I belive all of these guys have kncoed the Hulk out there are probably more but I don't know them all.

BB didn't do it with brute force. He used either his voice, or several lightnings.

But yeah, and seeing as how they were able to do it, it's very damn well in S'ym's power to do it himself IMO.

does anybody remember that S'ym is now a techno-organic demon, aside from shapeshifting, he is virtually immortal and indestructible. The only things that seem to slow him down or hurt him are magic (of a high order) and powerful electro-magnetic fields (as generated by magneto).

Originally posted by LordKaos
does anybody remember that S'ym is now a techno-organic demon, aside from shapeshifting, he is virtually immortal and indestructible. The only things that seem to slow him down or hurt him are magic (of a high order) and powerful electro-magnetic fields (as generated by magneto).

I think Long Pig didnt mean current one, but rather the one from The Ballad of Belasco, in order to emphasize on the fact that he broke grade A adamantium like it was nothing.

well since it wasn't specified i'm sticking with TO S'ym

Originally posted by LordKaos
well since it wasn't specified i'm sticking with TO S'ym

Even easier win

<<Namor, Juggernaut, Abomination, Black Bolt, Iron Man. I belive all of these guys have kncoed the Hulk out there are probably more but I don't know them all.>>

namor did it underwater. bb didn't use force, im did do it after maxing his armor, nearly killing himself AND striking a completely STUNNED hulk. abom did it about 35 years ago in his first appearance. juggs never ko'd savage hulk.

I SAID IT HAS BEEN DONE. I SAID SYM COULD CONCEIVEABLY DO IT. I SAID IT DOES NOT HAPPEN OFTEN. IT DOES NOT.

hulk has been and always will be the hallmark for strength in the marvel universe. to say someone SHOULD beat him (which is what is implied in calling down cis/pis -- you are saying this 'other character' would have won a straight up fist fight with hulk except pis/cis intervened) you are also implying that character is stronger than hulk. unless you think that person will outwrestle him or something . . . no one has been proven to be CONSISTENTLY stronger than hulk. juggs? no. herc? no. he and a GAGGLE of avengers fought and BARELY subdued a mindless hulk. thor? got trounced without his hammer. thor also without his hammer appeared stronger than juggs and has stalemated herc everytime. what does THAT imply?

is it possible given the right conditions that they could win a FIST fight against hulk? sure. with surprise or if hulk is stunned. straight up? i doubt it -- at least none of them ever has. hulk's strength doesn't increase with any set timeframe, nor does it stop growing. nor is his base strength much below these others so it's doubtful they ko him with a single shot.

can sym do it? potentially.
do i think it likely? no.

straight up with savage hulk: i say hulk 8/10

other hulks, other results.

and you never did give an example of a character who WOULD have beaten hulk but for pis/cis interference.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Namor, Juggernaut, Abomination, Black Bolt, Iron Man. I belive all of these guys have kncoed the Hulk out there are probably more but I don't know them all.>>

namor did it underwater. bb didn't use force, im did do it after maxing his armor, nearly killing himself AND striking a completely STUNNED hulk. abom did it about 35 years ago in his first appearance. juggs never ko'd savage hulk.

I SAID IT HAS BEEN DONE. I SAID SYM COULD CONCEIVEABLY DO IT. I SAID IT DOES NOT HAPPEN OFTEN. IT DOES NOT.

hulk has been and always will be the hallmark for strength in the marvel universe. to say someone SHOULD beat him (which is what is implied in calling down cis/pis -- you are saying this 'other character' would have won a straight up fist fight with hulk except pis/cis intervened) you are also implying that character is stronger than hulk. unless you think that person will outwrestle him or something . . . no one has been proven to be CONSISTENTLY stronger than hulk. juggs? no. herc? no. he and a GAGGLE of avengers fought and BARELY subdued a mindless hulk. thor? got trounced without his hammer. thor also without his hammer appeared stronger than juggs and has stalemated herc everytime. what does THAT imply?

is it possible given the right conditions that they could win a FIST fight against hulk? sure. with surprise or if hulk is stunned. straight up? i doubt it -- at least none of them ever has. hulk's strength doesn't increase with any set timeframe, nor does it stop growing. nor is his base strength much below these others so it's doubtful they ko him with a single shot.

can sym do it? potentially.
do i think it likely? no.

straight up with savage hulk: i say hulk 8/10

other hulks, other results.


Originally posted by leonidas
and you never did give an example of a character who WOULD have beaten hulk but for pis/cis interference.

You just quoted the examples. What i said was that a Hulk that would be hit via full force by a character as strong as Hercules, Thor, Namor underwater, Abomination, Super Humanoid and others at the beginning of a fight should go down. Why? Because if his durability and strength don't get a chance to increase, or if he's simply overpowered too quickly, he loses. That has been shown in the occurences where he HAS been knocked out by some of these characters at the beginning of the fight.

And seeing as how he HAS been knocked out by some of these characters at the beginning of the fight, it only implies that they could have done it every single time they fought Hulk, simply by attacking forcefully and quickly, at the beginning of the fight.

So why didn't each and every one of these characters knock Hulk out like that even though they're capable of it? That's what i mean by CIS/PIS.

It's like a ten year old kid vs. an 8 year old kid. Only the 8 year old kid can get stronger and more durable than the 10 year old kid, given enough time and annoyance. But technically, the 10 year old kid should be able to knock the 8 year old kid out at the beginning of every fight. So why doesn't he? PIS/CIS.

that's the thing -- NONE of those fights ended 'early' with single knock out shots. hulk's base is underrated in this forum. full force, blind shot by thor probably would ko hulk if he wasn't looking or if he was stunned. hulk merely has to LOOK at an opponent to start to get angry though so his strength already starts to increase BEFORE the fight.,

no one has ever walked up to hulk and ko'd him -- except that recent scene where that guy ko'd hulk in 3 shots. which is why i claimed THAT scene was pis/cis. another character with the same powers (gamma rays, increasing strength) also beat hulk recently, but hulk totalled him in the rematch -- again, not CONSISTENTLY stronger. which is what my point is.

oh, and that sym is CAPABLE of doing it, just not very often imo as this type of fight is exactly up hulk's alley.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's the thing -- NONE of those fights ended 'early' with single knock out shots. hulk's base is underrated in this forum. full force, blind shot by thor probably would ko hulk if he wasn't looking or if he was stunned. hulk merely has to LOOK at an opponent to start to get angry though so his strength already starts to increase BEFORE the fight.,

no one has ever walked up to hulk and ko'd him -- except that recent scene where that guy ko'd hulk in 3 shots. which is why i claimed THAT scene was pis/cis. another character with the same powers (gamma rays, increasing strength) also beat hulk recently, but hulk totalled him in the rematch -- again, not CONSISTENTLY stronger. which is what my point is.

oh, and that sym is CAPABLE of doing it, just not very often imo as this type of fight is exactly up hulk's alley.

You're relentless did ya know that? Instead of a cookie i'm gonna reward your relentlesness with a PM with somethin

And i suppose we're just going to have to "agree to disagree". I see this as a match S'ym is more than capable of winning more often than not.

Originally posted by long pig
He didn't have a hard time at all. He toyed with him, Colossus admitted inferiority and then Wolverine tried to cut him. He couldn't even pierce his skin, but S'ym turned to smash him and Colossus kicked him in a teleporter.

PIS PIS?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/ColossusandSym.jpg

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
You're relentless did ya know that? Instead of a cookie i'm gonna reward your relentlesness with a PM with somethin

And i suppose we're just going to have to "agree to disagree". I see this as a match S'ym is more than capable of winning more often than not.

fair 'nuff. and i look forward to the thread. i got some early spawn, but wasn't crazy about it so i don't know much about spawn. hopefully you're thread will enlighten me!

nice debating with someone who doesn't get all personal and 'insulty'. not that many around here . . .

Originally posted by kgkg
You are right

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
Hulk does not have any sort of telepathy now does he?
And i don't think it was in New Mutants. That picture long pig gave is from The Ballad of Belasco.

Hmmm, I should have been more precise.

Cable beat S'ym... with his bare hands (he may have had his staff but I don't think so). He grabbed S'ym's tongue with his arm then preceded in beat the crap out of him. At least I think thats how it went down.

So Cable and Colossus have both kicked this guy's butt and you think he can take on Savage Hulk? Seems like a long shot. Hulk's strength is said to be limitless and has never been close to getting beaten by Collossus.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
ya and he gets outta that to

Originally posted by kgkg
ya and he gets outta that to Yea because he looses concentration cause Access interupted him.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Yea because he looses concentration cause Access interupted him.

My point is proven note I never said Hulk won simple broke out of Gl's construct like I was showing hulk’s strength.

Am proving nothing more

i doubt kg is saying hulk would win in a fight against gl. just that he's strong enough to break his contructs, which he is. hulk could certanly hurt gl, and a careless, less proficient gl than hal could be beaten by hulk, but hal would find a way to take him, eventually.

as for getting away from that beast -- all hulk had to do was dig. what's the big deal?

Originally posted by leonidas
i doubt kg is saying hulk would win in a fight against gl. just that he's strong enough to break his contructs, which he is. hulk could certanly hurt gl, and a careless, less proficient gl than hal could be beaten by hulk, but hal would find a way to take him, eventually.

as for getting away from that beast -- all hulk had to do was dig. what's the big deal? I don't think he would be smart enough to figure that out.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
PIS?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/ColossusandSym.jpg
Colossus defeated Sym?

For real

Originally posted by kgkg
Colossus defeated Sym?

For real

what issue was that? i prolly have it and don't even remember it. inferno sucked arse. didn't that sym look like a robot in that scan?? sym was a demon, i thought . . ..

I just don't see him beating Hulk. He snapped a claw in a weird demon dimension. That hardly means he would defeat the king of strength.

Originally posted by leonidas
what issue was that? i prolly have it and don't even remember it. inferno sucked arse. didn't that sym look like a robot in that scan?? sym was a demon, i thought . . .. He was a techno-organic being at the time. I don't remember the story fully.

I just know that Colossus pounded him.

apparently . . . i'll have to dig back and see if i can take a better look at the story. i just remember hating it. never liked belasco, or illyana either . . .

that entire story was a trick devised by S'ym to get Illyana to use more magic, neither he or Magik knew that Gateway had teleported the real Colossus to limbo, thinking that Colossus was a necromantic construct summoned and sustained by the dark energy Magik raised, it's safe to say that having Illyana think her brother defeated S'ym, suited the demons purpose, having his reluctant mistress use more black magic to control what she and S'ym thought was a necromantic shade. S'ym could not infect Colossus with the transmode virus, i'm guessing because he was armored up (which doesn't make sense to me), but Hulk is all organic and has no such defense.

Originally posted by leonidas
fair 'nuff. and i look forward to the thread. i got some early spawn, but wasn't crazy about it so i don't know much about spawn. hopefully you're thread will enlighten me!

nice debating with someone who doesn't get all personal and 'insulty'. not that many around here . . .

As long as the people i argue with are mature and use logic, i don't mind debating with them and see no point in getting personal.

Hope it will. I'm still working on it

Not only is that picture not from the Ballad ofBelasco (i think), but also misinterpreted. What you're refering to, like LordKaos said, was a "let them think they won" thing, so that Illyana would "give in to the dark side"
In the Ballad of Belasco, when S'ym i don't think even had the TO virus yet to make him stronger and more deadly, killed Colossus

Is Namor underwater stronger then Sy'm?

I remember reading in the marvel handbook some time ago that S'ym could press about 70 tons, now considering he contracted the transmode virus from Magus, one can assume that he can increase his size and strength by an unknow degree. Magus could become big and strong enough rip a star apart.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Is Namor underwater stronger then Sy'm?

I don't think he stronger per se, but i can't see Namor lose underwater as much as i don't see S'ym lose to Namor in Limbo

S'yms powers are not dependent on limbo, if anything he is weaker in limbo because there is always some magic user who rules it and him.

Originally posted by LordKaos
S'yms powers are not dependent on limbo, if anything he is weaker in limbo because there is always some magic user who rules it and him.

His top feats were in Limbo, that's why i said that. Just like Namor's top feats were in water.

Bio on sym

http://www.norse-man.net/Marvel/Char-S/Sym.htm

i still think that s'ym is far more powerful than any one else as he brike adamantium like it was nothing

Originally posted by n'astirh
i still think that s'ym is far more powerful than any one else as he brike adamantium like it was nothing

Not 616 adamantium so it doesn't count.

I'd kick the Hulk's ass, btw.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not 616 adamantium so it doesn't count.

I'd kick the Hulk's ass, btw. Marvel careful with 616 reality chars

Hulk stomps S'ym!

Good fight. It could go either way.

Originally posted by long pig
S'ym once broke Wolverine's Adamantium claw. And what? It grew back?