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okay. most seem to believe that the wielder of the power gem is capable to becoming stronger than the hulk. personally, i think it's the other way around.

what? art thou daft, leo???

i don't think so -- or at least not completely

power gem: allows wielder to draw on 'unltd power' whose source is the universe itself!

hulk's strength: drawn on from a DIFFERENT/ALTERNATE universe/dimension, also said to be 'limitless'. the difference is, (and bear in mind this is hypothetical and not necessarily practical) that hulk's strength, and the source of it, is believed to be ltd only by hulk's imagination.

soooo . . . if drax with the pg summoned ALL the universe's power, a limit will have been reached -- ie, his strength is NOT infinite, it is ltd by the energy available in the universe. hulk on the other hand HAS no true limit. he only needs to imagine himself even stronger. his strenght is (theoretically) NOT bound by the physical laws of the universe, as the wielder of the power gem's strength is.

soooooo . . . hulk could conceiveably be stronger than even the FULL POWER of the power gem!

agree? disagree?

have at my 'theory'!

boxing

ps-this IS a theoretical discussion. hulk would likely never reach that strength, as a pg user would never absorb ALL the universe's power.

i believe its true......thanos........defeated thor with the power gem we all know that thanos dosent have limitless strength......so either the gem really sucks ass....or no one really knows how to use it to its full potential.....

Originally posted by leonidas
okay. most seem to believe that the wielder of the power gem is capable to becoming stronger than the hulk. personally, i think it's the other way around.

what? art thou daft, leo???

i don't think so -- or at least not completely

power gem: allows wielder to draw on 'unltd power' whose source is the universe itself!

hulk's strength: drawn on from a DIFFERENT/ALTERNATE universe/dimension, also said to be 'limitless'. the difference is, (and bear in mind this is hypothetical and not necessarily practical) that hulk's strength, and the source of it, is believed to be ltd only by hulk's imagination.

soooo . . . if drax with the pg summoned ALL the universe's power, a limit will have been reached -- ie, his strength is NOT infinite, it is ltd by the energy available in the universe. hulk on the other hand HAS no true limit. he only needs to imagine himself even stronger. his strenght is (theoretically) NOT bound by the physical laws of the universe, as the wielder of the power gem's strength is.

soooooo . . . hulk could conceiveably be stronger than even the FULL POWER of the power gem!

agree? disagree?

have at my 'theory'!

boxing

ps-this IS a theoretical discussion. hulk would likely never reach that strength, as a pg user would never absorb ALL the universe's power.

If he would absorb all the Universe's power, would he not absorb Hulk's power too?

LOL Thanos strength is comparable to that of Hulks. Don't make me whip out that scan again.

To say he beat Thor is a moot point.

the power gem is a funny bit of business. It guarantees the wielder infinite power- not just infinite bench pressing ability.

Likewise, the gems of space, time, reality, and the soul give their wielders total mastery of their respective areas. All of them together puts whoever is using it just below the living freaking tribunal. Thats a hell of a lot of power.

I hate to use she hulk as an example (I have the feeling that particular issue was more humor oriented than anything), but a champion of the universe with the gem physically punked every high end cosmic in the ring. Surfer, Drax, Gladiator....etc

Those with an affinity for the gems (champion, drax) will get better use out of it than a novice. Warrior madness thor had infinite power with the gem, but not the skill to use it. Thanos, being much more experience and smart as hell beat him anyway. Same thing with champion and drax. Intelligence and skill can trump sheer power more often than not.

And the hulk does not have unlimited universal power. He's powered by gamma radiation. Surfer was able to drain him of it and revert him back to banner with no problem.

Good post, Mummy

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
Good post, Mummy

thanks!

<<And the hulk does not have unlimited universal power. He's powered by gamma radiation. >>

gamma rays simply cause the mutation. his strength (as pointed out by the beyonder) is actually drawn from different dimension -- as is, presumably, his mass. when ss drained his gamma rays, that's like saying he drained his mutation, or that he 'healed him'. ss couldn't beat hulk in a battle of strength.

what we're talking about here is who has the potentially higher end limit on STRENGTH. i still say hulk.

But what if Universe is limitless?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<And the hulk does not have unlimited universal power. He's powered by gamma radiation. >>

gamma rays simply cause the mutation. his strength (as pointed out by the beyonder) is actually drawn from different dimension -- as is, presumably, his mass. when ss drained his gamma rays, that's like saying he drained his mutation, or that he 'healed him'. ss couldn't beat hulk in a battle of strength.

what we're talking about here is who has the potentially higher end limit on STRENGTH. i still say hulk.

lets assume this is an arm wrestling match- power gem vs. hulk.

Ok, thinking purely theoretically- the power gem grants infinite and inexhaustible strength in the hands of a skilled user. It doesn't come FROM this universe- its part of a being that claimed to create this universe. (or something, my infinity gem history is a little rusty)
Per its discription, its infinite. as in "not finite", no limit.

The hulk theoretically can attain infinite strength, but needs to get mad enough and STAY mad enough to sustain that level of strength. Can the hulk remain infinitely angry for an infinite amount of time? I say no- he's powerful but still mortal. given a long enough timeline, he'll exhaust his ability to draw on this infinite source of power, and eventually lose.

what about the juggernaut? his power source should be infinite as well. in an arm wrestling match, I think jugs could go pretty much forever, since he doesnt tire or require sustenance, and his strength isnt dependent on his emotional state.

Hulk's strength DOES originate in another dimension. Examples where his powers were negated by absorbing gamma radiation like in the case of surfer or tyrannus are PIS. The most recent attempt of Surfer to siphon off the Hulk's gamma radiation simply resulted in Surfer getting smacked around; albeit in this case the Hulk and Banner were separated. However, something like this happening is contingent on the writer, whether or not they want to portray the Hulk as the strongest character in the MU or as a plot device.

Concerning the power gem, I agree with a lot of people who say it depends on the wielder. Yes someone like Champion or Thanos who could probably demonstrate a true mastery of the gem would consequently possess all the power/strength of the universe. They would also probably demonstrate far superior strength than the Hulk, unless its one of those exceptional cases where the Hulk's strength defies physics, i.e. when he resisted the matter/anti-matter attraction.

Originally posted by Space M ummy

And the hulk does not have unlimited universal power. He's powered by gamma radiation. Surfer was able to drain him of it and revert him back to banner with no problem.

Im just going to pick on this one more time...in his most recent attempt, the Surfer tried to drain the gamma radiation off the Hulk again and revert him back to Banner. Since Banner no longer existed in that dimension the Surfer's attempts were useless and he got smacked around by the Hulk for several pages...demonstrating that gamma radiation is a byproduct of Hulk's condition, not the source.

Furthermore, the Hulk's power has been described as having a limitless extradimensional source by the Living Tribunal and the pre-retconned Beyonder...thus by relative terms of strength he is potentially one of the strongest guys around...although I dont see him taking on any of the higher level cosmics under normal conditions; they not only have the power to initially defeat him but they also have the near omnitience to take down someone so one dimensional. However, an angry Hulk will always be able to bring a fight to Thanos and Champion.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Hulk's strength DOES originate in another dimension. Examples where his powers were negated by absorbing gamma radiation like in the case of surfer or tyrannus are PIS. The most recent attempt of Surfer to siphon off the Hulk's gamma radiation simply resulted in Surfer getting smacked around; albeit in this case the Hulk and Banner were separated. However, something like this happening is contingent on the writer, whether or not they want to portray the Hulk as the strongest character in the MU or as a plot device.

Concerning the power gem, I agree with a lot of people who say it depends on the wielder. Yes someone like Champion or Thanos who could probably demonstrate a true mastery of the gem would consequently possess all the power/strength of the universe. They would also probably demonstrate far superior strength than the Hulk, unless its one of those exceptional cases where the Hulk's strength defies physics, i.e. when he resisted the matter/anti-matter attraction.



Im just going to pick on this one more time...in his most recent attempt, the Surfer tried to drain the gamma radiation off the Hulk again and revert him back to Banner. Since Banner no longer existed in that dimension the Surfer's attempts were useless and he got smacked around by the Hulk for several pages...demonstrating that gamma radiation is a byproduct of Hulk's condition, not the source.

Furthermore, the Hulk's power has been described as having a limitless extradimensional source by the Living Tribunal and the pre-retconned Beyonder...thus by relative terms of strength he is potentially one of the strongest guys around...although I dont see him taking on any of the higher level cosmics under normal conditions; they not only have the power to initially defeat him but they also have the near omnitience to take down someone so one dimensional. However, an angry Hulk will always be able to bring a fight to Thanos and Champion.


Ah, I was unaware of that. I consider myself corrected on the gamma radiation thing.

Other than that, I still believe my point is valid- unless he can remain infinitely angry for an infinite amount of time, he loses a contest of strength vs. an experienced gem holder. If for some reason he CAN, then its a stalemate- much like I expect a juggernaut vs. gem holder should be.

also: hulk will always lose to Thanos- the man simply is too intelligent, too experienced, and has too many options. A well written champion (does such a thing exist?) should be able to defeat him, though champion as he's usually written (sans gem) wins maybe 4/10 to a sufficiently angry hulk.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Ah, I was unaware of that. I consider myself corrected on the gamma radiation thing.

Other than that, I still believe my point is valid- unless he can remain infinitely angry for an infinite amount of time, he loses a contest of strength vs. an experienced gem holder.


Why would he have to be stronger for an infiite amount of time? In something like an arm wrestle he would only have to be stronger until he pins his arm. If it's a benching contest, he would only have to be stronger during the bench press.

Hulk has never demonstrated he wasnt strong enough to do something. Thats why the secret wars example wasnt bad writing in my opinion. It would have been bad writing if he were shown as not strong enough. No matter what, Juggernaut is clearly only a fraction as strong as Cytorrak...to say he could hang with Thanos or Champion would be a very strong assumption...a teenage class 70 Colossus put Juggernaut on his ass in one of his first appearances. Champion turned Colossus into a bruised piece of steel. Juggernaut took over a decade to crawl out from under a mountain of rubble. Champion has shattered planets in a single punch...they are clearly in different leagues.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Hulk has never demonstrated he wasnt strong enough to do something. Thats why the secret wars example wasnt bad writing in my opinion. It would have been bad writing if he were shown as not strong enough. No matter what, Juggernaut is clearly only a fraction as strong as Cytorrak...to say he could hang with Thanos or Champion would be a very strong assumption...a teenage class 70 Colossus put Juggernaut on his ass in one of his first appearances. Champion turned Colossus into a bruised piece of steel. Juggernaut took over a decade to crawl out from under a mountain of rubble. Champion has shattered planets in a single punch...they are clearly in different leagues.

I agree.

When did Champion beat down Colossus? When did Jugs take a decade to crawl out from under a mountain? I'd be intersted in knowing the issues.. ballpark at least.

Originally posted by scotsmn
Why would he have to be stronger for an infiite amount of time? In something like an arm wrestle he would only have to be stronger until he pins his arm. If it's a benching contest, he would only have to be stronger during the bench press.

He would need to remain infinitely strong for an infinite amount of time, because thats what the power gem grants. Infinite and inexhaustible power. I picked an arm wrestling contest because thats the simplest "strength vs. strength" contest I could think of on the spot. In a case where infinite is vs. infinite, it would be a stalemate, until one declines, unlike a bench pressing contest where all you have to do is lift heavier and heavier weights.

here's another example, using stereo amplifiers. I have a 100 watt Onkyo amp, and a 100 watt sony amp. The Sony amp has a 100 watt peak- it can hit 100 watts, but only for a brief period of time, it can't sustain it. The Onkyo is 100 watts RMS- It's capable of sustaining an output of 100 watts for a much longer period of time- say a half hour or so before you see a decline in power.

Which one is stronger? the Onkyo, obviously. Thats what we're looking at with Hulk vs. a Gem holder. if both can (theoretically) hit a level of infinite strength, the one who holds out longer is clearly the stronger. The gem is inexhaustible. Hulk can sustain his peak only as he can stay sufficiently angry. Hulk has a limit, the gem does not- the gem is stronger here.

edit: I picked the juggernaut as an example since his power originates from cyttorak's dimension and is THEORETICALLY also for all intents and purposes inexhaustible. It doesn't matter how long he can stay angry, he should in theory be able to perform at max output for an indefinite amount of time. As for actual feats in comics, we've seen him be defeated, but if he didnt lose now and then, he wouldnt make a very good villain.

Hulk is an infinity of power:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/beyonder6ca.jpg

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Hulk is an infinity of power:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/beyonder6ca.jpg

Per your pic, that hulk was separated from banner. Standard hulk (with banner) needs to stay angry to hit high levels of power, and does wear out eventually.

Well then our definitions of strength are completely different. I think of strength as something that gives you the ability to move something. Duration never crosses my mind. When I go to the gym and I'm measuring my strength on a bench press, I have never measured by how long I can hold the weight up... I go by the heaviest amount I can lift.

Leonidas' argument is that the gem can only grant the strength/power of this particular universe, so it's not infinite. Hulk gets his strength from another dimension, maybe something like the speed force... strength force? This would supposedly make his strength infinite. Because of this, his ability to lift would be infinite.. but you believe his human side wouldn't be able to keep it up indefinitely. I haven't seen Hulk put something down before because he was tired but I guess it's a possibility.

I'm gonna say that Hulk can become stronger for a limited time at least.

leonidas wasn't exactly correct when he said the gem's power is limited to this universe. it was a part of a being that claimed to create universes, so an argument could be made that its power does indeed exceed that contained in THIS particular universe.

in any case, how can you make the argument that the energy contained in one universe/dimension exceeds that of another? how much energy is in a universe? how would you exhaust it?

going back to the gym example: if you and the next guy can both lift 250lbs over your head, but he collapses and drops it after 5 seconds, and you can hold it up for an additional 5 minutes, who's stronger?

Originally posted by Space M ummy

going back to the gym example: if you and the next guy can both lift 250lbs over your head, but he collapses and drops it after 5 seconds, and you can hold it up for an additional 5 minutes, who's stronger?

I would say say I'm stronger in that case. But if he can lift 5 more lbs than me, althought I can hold mine up for 10 seconds longer, I'd say he was stronger. I guess it comes down to opinion. I think of strength as the level of Force one can apply.

Originally posted by scotsmn
Well then our definitions of strength are completely different. I think of strength as something that gives you the ability to move something. Duration never crosses my mind. When I go to the gym and I'm measuring my strength on a bench press, I have never measured by how long I can hold the weight up... I go by the heaviest amount I can lift.

Leonidas' argument is that the gem can only grant the strength/power of this particular universe, so it's not infinite. Hulk gets his strength from another dimension, maybe something like the speed force... strength force? This would supposedly make his strength infinite. Because of this, his ability to lift would be infinite.. but you believe his human side wouldn't be able to keep it up indefinitely. I haven't seen Hulk put something down before because he was tired but I guess it's a possibility.

I'm gonna say that Hulk can become stronger for a limited time at least.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
leonidas wasn't exactly correct when he said the gem's power is limited to this universe. it was a part of a being that claimed to create universes, so an argument could be made that its power does indeed exceed that contained in THIS particular universe.

in any case, how can you make the argument that the energy contained in one universe/dimension exceeds that of another? how much energy is in a universe? how would you exhaust it?

going back to the gym example: if you and the next guy can both lift 250lbs over your head, but he collapses and drops it after 5 seconds, and you can hold it up for an additional 5 minutes, who's stronger?

you'd need to prove to me that the infinity gauntlet has some sort of multiversal power for me to consider your side as correct. can't recall the name of the being the gems were personifications of . . .

as far as the universe containing a finite amount of power -- all universes are created and destroyed, and exist for only finite amounts of time -- the cycle is determined by the pf, most say. universes exist in a finite amount of space, and exist for a finite amount of time, and contain a finite amount of energy.

beyond that, there are varying scales of infinity. so it IS possible for hulk's 'infinite' strength, to be 'greater' than the gem's 'infinite' power.

Originally posted by Ultimate Rage
i believe its true......thanos........defeated thor with the power gem we all know that thanos dosent have limitless strength......so either the gem really sucks ass....or no one really knows how to use it to its full potential.....
When champ had the Gem he beat everyone in the Universe worth mentioning with his strength.

Hulk =< Drax

Originally posted by kgkg

When champ had the Gem he beat everyone in the Universe worth mentioning with his strength.

Hulk =< Drax

that was prof hulk AND we're speaking theoretically, based on what is known about the powers of each . . .

The Hulk does not have unlimited strenght no matter what some may say. I would think The Void breaking his bones would put The Hulk in such anger that he should have trashed The Void but did not because The Hulk even angry was not strong enough. Same goes for Thanos. Thanos trashes The Hulk and even when in a mindless rage still cannot match Thanos' brute force. With this in mind The Hulk maybe one of the strongest there is but his strength does have a limit even if it is something like 999,999,999,999 tons.

Originally posted by leonidas
that was prof hulk AND we're speaking theoretically, based on what is known about the powers of each . . .
That really wasn't much a battle.

Am saying Drax is a Hulk like character whose strength can go way up there.

Originally posted by kgkg
That really wasn't much a battle.

Am saying Drax is a Hulk like character whose strength can go way up there.

Drax hits a limit though whereas Hulk doesn't. What determines how fast Hulk gets stronger is the situation and the incarnation of Hulk. Mindless Hulk would climb very quickly in strength but Prof would lag behind.

Originally posted by scotsmn
Drax hits a limit though whereas Hulk doesn't. What determines how fast Hulk gets stronger is the situation and the incarnation of Hulk. Mindless Hulk would climb very quickly in strength but Prof would lag behind.
Drax hits a limit though????????? Prove it?

Originally posted by kgkg
Drax hits a limit though????????? Prove it?

Drax has never been stated to have a limit outside our universe. He is less than the power gem. He has a limit.

Originally posted by scotsmn
Drax has never been stated to have a limit outside our universe. He is less than the power gem. He has a limit.
When drax was made Chronos and brought back to life.

His powers where explained to be a dimension of limitless power meaning a limitless reservoir to get stronger.

Originally posted by scotsmn


When did Champion beat down Colossus? . Champion destroyed Colossus like he did everyone else in Marvel two-in One Annual #7. But Colossus did almost last a full round.

Thing did the best cause it was boxing only rules match.



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/ColossusandChampion.jpg

Originally posted by kgkg

When drax was made Chronos and brought back to life.

His powers where explained to be a dimension of limitless power meaning a limitless reservoir to get stronger.

I guess I missed that issue

I don't understand your first sentence though.

you kinda get used to it . . .

Some of the descriptions of Drax's strength seem to be hyperbole. Although he is a stud, he has never been anything near a match for Thanos. They really aren't in the same league; Odin blasted Drax into unconsciousness with ease...his same attack didnt make Thanos flinch.

About Juggernaut taking a decade to crawl out from under a mountain: When he first became the Juggernaut the cavern he was inside collapsed on him...took him a decade to crawl out unless Im mistaken. It also took him a month to get out of the that concrete foundation the time he got beat by...Spiderman I imagine Champion would have just clapped his hands together in either case and free himself in the process of destroying the landscape.

Thing had the best showing against Champion because he was the best fighter there, the most disciplined, the most prepared, the strongest of mind and body. In my opinion Thor and Hulk would have also given him a good fight. What boxing has to do with i dont know...as far as I knew neither Ben Grimm or Colossus were formerly trained at boxing in particular although they have been formerly trained other combat techniques. Thing also managed to put up a good fight and even break some of Champions ribs. Did Colossus get a punch off?

Originally posted by Wynndar


Thing had the best showing against Champion because he was the best fighter there, the most disciplined, the most prepared, the strongest of mind and body. In my opinion Thor and Hulk would have also given him a good fight. What boxing has to do with i dont know...as far as I knew neither Ben Grimm or Colossus were formerly trained at boxing in particular although they have been formerly trained other combat techniques. Thing also managed to put up a good fight and even break some of Champions ribs. Did Colossus get a punch off? Well atleast Colossus was never k.o.'d. He took blow after blow but still held in there. Not bad for a teenage kid at the time.

Your right thing did have the better boxing skill out of everyone there.

The thought of Hulk throwing jabs makes me

Originally posted by Wynndar
About Juggernaut taking a decade to crawl out from under a mountain: When he first became the Juggernaut the cavern he was inside collapsed on him...took him a decade to crawl out unless Im mistaken. It also took him a month to get out of the that concrete foundation the time he got beat by...Spiderman
Those were lame showings considering some of the other things he's done and busted out of.

i've always been a bit puzzled by why it is people think juggs is so strong. clearly he is very strong -- high cl100, but there are heroes at least as strong and some stronger. personally, i'd put him at abomination level or slightly higher. i don't believe he 'draws' strength from cyttorak. he HAS the strength, but it doesn't amplify like hulk's or drax's. it is a set strength. thor appeared to be at least as strong or stronger once he cut juggs off from his shield. hulk tossed him around a couple times though he didn't ko him. he's tough to beat because of his shield, not because of his strength. without his shield there are many heroes who would beat him. anyone care to name a few of his highest end feats?

There is a Juggernaut respect thread in the Comic book section.

thanks. i'll check it out!

Originally posted by leonidas
can't recall the name of the being the gems were personifications of . . .

"The one who once was" He didn't have a name - didn't need one seeing as he was the only thing that existed.

Originally posted by leonidas
i've always been a bit puzzled by why it is people think juggs is so strong. clearly he is very strong -- high cl100, but there are heroes at least as strong and some stronger. personally, i'd put him at abomination level or slightly higher. i don't believe he 'draws' strength from cyttorak. he HAS the strength, but it doesn't amplify like hulk's or drax's. it is a set strength. thor appeared to be at least as strong or stronger once he cut juggs off from his shield. hulk tossed him around a couple times though he didn't ko him. he's tough to beat because of his shield, not because of his strength. without his shield there are many heroes who would beat him. anyone care to name a few of his highest end feats?

Exactly...its only assumed he is that strong. However, there is clearly evidence against him being anywhere near the level of the upper 100 guys like gladiator who would not get stopped by a mountain or...wet concrete and spiderman

hey snoop, couldn't find any respect juggs threads. you sure it's in there? my luck with searches isn't always great, but like i said, i couldn't find it.

Originally posted by leonidas
hey snoop, couldn't find any respect juggs threads. you sure it's in there? my luck with searches isn't always great, but like i said, i couldn't find it.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=356857&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

heheh.

thanks snoop. apparently it was me: i can't spell "respeck"



some decent feats. most as i thought were invincibility related, rather than strength. he certainly IS strong -- i said high cl100, but still, we've seen others do most of that. he's strong, but not as strong as a few others. his durability was never a question.

Originally posted by leonidas
heheh.

thanks snoop. apparently it was me: i can't spell "respeck"



some decent feats. most as i thought were invincibility related, rather than strength. he certainly IS strong -- i said high cl100, but still, we've seen others do most of that. he's strong, but not as strong as a few others. his durability was never a question. Yea but Juggernaut never really needs to use his strength. He just plows through stuff rather than just lift it and move it.

so, can hulk amp to match the gem's limit??!

Originally posted by leonidas
so, can hulk amp to match the gem's limit??!

After six months do you still think the same thing about Juggernauts strength?

No, Hulks power isn't Unlimited, It's just comic hyperbole. Rage is never unlimited, everyone has a limit to how made you can get.

Can I get a scan of where it said Hulk draws power from another dimension?

Hulk's strength is unlimited. Samson couldn't measure it. The Leader couldn't build a device to measure it. It was even stated by the frickin Beyonder.

His strength is not limited to his rage. It stems off from an adrenaline rush, emotions, and a desire to be the strongest. As a kid, Bruce wanted to be strong to protect his mother from his abusive father and that desire for strength apparently always remained with him (subconsciously, I suppose). When the Hulk needs to reach a certain level of strength, not only will his rage push him to that level, but also his desire to be the strongest one there is.

In short, no matter how high he needs to increase his strength, if allowed, he can and will physically stronger than his opponent.

juggy is lucky he found that gem before hulk. cause hulk could have smashed that thing.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
After six months do you still think the same thing about Juggernauts strength?

No, Hulks power isn't Unlimited, It's just comic hyperbole. Rage is never unlimited, everyone has a limit to how made you can get.

Can I get a scan of where it said Hulk draws power from another dimension?

do i still feel the same way about juggy's strength? of course. no one has done anything to show me differently. throwing out his invulnerability, he was beaten handily by thor and was on the verge of being ko'd. thor>juggernaut sans invulnerability. in the exact same circumstance, hulk beat the crap out of thor. hulk in nearly full rage smashed onslaught. we saw what onslaught did to juggs. juggs surprised and choked out prof hulk. not much of a feat. you say juggs has shook the earth with punches. hulk has smashed an asteroid TWICE earth's size with a SINGLE punch.

feat wise hulk far exceeds him.
comparison against the same opponents (thor and onslaught) hulk has FAR better showings.

juggs is strong -- high cl100 -- but not as strong as thor and certainly less than hulk.

as for your scan -- i wish i could provide it. i read about it and saw it on the forum somewhere. i spent a while trying to find it, but . . .

as far as hulk amping infinitely -- there have been many cases showing that there is indeed no measureable limit to hulk's strength. accl did a nice job of defining WHY hulk's strength is literally 'different' from everyone else's. it is not bounded by physical laws. hulk can become as strong as he needs to be. as accl said, even the beyonder commented on his infinite well of power. i'll assume you've checked out hulk's respect thread so i don't need to say how many instances there are regarding his 'limitless' strength.

my original position still stands -- i see no reason to believe hulk's strength couldn't match any strength level attainable by a power gem wielder.

Hulk could match the Power Gem, but I doubt he could surpass it.

Also, a power gem wielder is imbued with the strength out the gate. Hulk has to amass a large sum of rage and will.

I'd personally rather have the gem. With the gem, I could put Hulk down before he became a threat since I'd always be at "infinite" strength.

Originally posted by leonidas
do i still feel the same way about juggy's strength? of course. no one has done anything to show me differently. throwing out his invulnerability, he was beaten handily by thor and was on the verge of being ko'd. thor>juggernaut sans invulnerability. in the exact same circumstance, hulk beat the crap out of thor. hulk in nearly full rage smashed onslaught. we saw what onslaught did to juggs. juggs surprised and choked out prof hulk. not much of a feat. you say juggs has shook the earth with punches. hulk has smashed an asteroid TWICE earth's size with a SINGLE punch.

feat wise hulk far exceeds him.
comparison against the same opponents (thor and onslaught) hulk has FAR better showings.

juggs is strong -- high cl100 -- but not as strong as thor and certainly less than hulk.

as for your scan -- i wish i could provide it. i read about it and saw it on the forum somewhere. i spent a while trying to find it, but . . .

as far as hulk amping infinitely -- there have been many cases showing that there is indeed no measureable limit to hulk's strength. accl did a nice job of defining WHY hulk's strength is literally 'different' from everyone else's. it is not bounded by physical laws. hulk can become as strong as he needs to be. as accl said, even the beyonder commented on his infinite well of power. i'll assume you've checked out hulk's respect thread so i don't need to say how many instances there are regarding his 'limitless' strength.

my original position still stands -- i see no reason to believe hulk's strength couldn't match any strength level attainable by a power gem wielder.

I want you to think about something. When Juggernaut became Trion Juggernaut he simply smashed his way through dimensions without much effort at all correct. While he was smashing through these dimensions he was brought back to his normal self. So how do you think he got back to his dimension? well I assume since it's the only way he could have got back that he smashed his way back on his own will. So how much strength does that take. Besides that point, Juggernauts strength like Hulks has been stated by Marvel to be "Unlimited". This is due to the fact that he draws his power from Cyttorak. Now it is stated by Marvel that when focused Juggernaut can increase his strength and other powers.

You keep saying that Thor would beat Juggernaut if Juggernaut didn't have his force field. I would like you to know that the comic your referring to is the only comic in Juggernauts 40 year history that has Juggernauts durability deriving from his shield. If you notice in other comics he rarely uses his force field, yet he is still completely impervious to harm. So I kind of discount that comic since it's the only comic that has Juggernauts durability deriving from his magic force field. Even then though the comic stated that Juggernaut was about to land the final blow on Thor, and this was before he received his durability back.

You also stated that Thor is stronger than Juggernaut. I highly disagree with that since on more than one occasion Juggernaut has overpowered, and nearly killed Thor with brute force.

His strength is not the problem. When the Hulk sets his mind on something, he'll become so enraged or excited that he literally won't stop until the job's done. Literally. His fury eliminates his need for food, water, sleep and quite possibly oxygen as well. So as long as you keep him occupied, he won't tire.

But that's exactly the problem. The Hulk has a relatively short attention span, and if the danger isn't great enough, he will get bored.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
I want you to think about something. When Juggernaut became Trion Juggernaut he simply smashed his way through dimensions without much effort at all correct. While he was smashing through these dimensions he was brought back to his normal self. So how do you think he got back to his dimension? well I assume since it's the only way he could have got back that he smashed his way back on his own will. So how much strength does that take.
I'm guessing either the holes were still there or he followed Xavier as HE smashed through the dimensions back home after he freed Juggernaut from Cyttorak's possession.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
I want you to think about something. When Juggernaut became Trion Juggernaut he simply smashed his way through dimensions without much effort at all correct. While he was smashing through these dimensions he was brought back to his normal self. So how do you think he got back to his dimension? well I assume since it's the only way he could have got back that he smashed his way back on his own will. So how much strength does that take. Besides that point, Juggernauts strength like Hulks has been stated by Marvel to be "Unlimited". This is due to the fact that he draws his power from Cyttorak. Now it is stated by Marvel that when focused Juggernaut can increase his strength and other powers.

You keep saying that Thor would beat Juggernaut if Juggernaut didn't have his force field. I would like you to know that the comic your referring to is the only comic in Juggernauts 40 year history that has Juggernauts durability deriving from his shield. If you notice in other comics he rarely uses his force field, yet he is still completely impervious to harm. So I kind of discount that comic since it's the only comic that has Juggernauts durability deriving from his magic force field. Even then though the comic stated that Juggernaut was about to land the final blow on Thor, and this was before he received his durability back.

You also stated that Thor is stronger than Juggernaut. I highly disagree with that since on more than one occasion Juggernaut has overpowered, and nearly killed Thor with brute force.

hulk has sent shockwaves through multiple dimensions and lit up an entire dimension with the force of blow. he's smashed time. and energy and broken the laws of physical reality. his strength is literally 'not real'.

oh, and i don't have to 'assume' anything, because these things are all on panel and canon. i'm also gonna guess there exists somewhere another viable explanation.

the funniest argument i hear against hulk's 'unltd' strength is that he can't possess unltd rage. why not? of all the 'impossible' comic book powers that exist, people try and use real world science to say hulk can't have unltd rage?? seriously. in a comicbook world DEFINED by impossible powers why not? because YOU can't, or I can't? i got news for you and anyone else who likes that argument -- comicbook characters can do 1 or 2 other things we can't.

as far as marvel saying he's unltd -- they say the extent of his strength is unknown. big difference. cyttorak himself is only skyfather, so it can't be 'unltd'. another point of proof comes from the time he shared the gem with cassidy. BOTH were juggernauts, but BOTH were much weaker than the original. if his strength and abilities were 'infinite' they could BOTH have been at juggernaut prime level. clearly, it is NOT unltd. one multiple ocasions hulk's strength has been sapped and drawn awy yet he STILL does crazy feats.

the shield thing with thor -- shield or not, doesn't matter. thor beat him down and would have ko'd him. when it came to a battle of pure strength, thor came out on top. in the other fights you mention, thor was unable to harm juggs. strength v strength free of outside powers, thor owned him.

about incresing his strength -- i can use the exact same argument for this supposed ability that you used for the shield power. you say its the first time the shield is used that way, i say that's the first time jugg's strength has been interpreted that way. we could throw BOTH out, but the point about thor's strenth v jugg's strength would still stand. jugg's power was never before or since been shown to increase with 'focus'. i said it before, i'll say it again -- despite marvel's apparent 'back-seat backing', i'm not buying it. when it appears in a handbook, or happens again, i'll take THAT as an 'OFFICIAL' backing.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I'm guessing either the holes were still there or he followed Xavier as HE smashed through the dimensions back home after he freed Juggernaut from Cyttorak's possession.

ahhhh, i knew there was more than ONE possible explanation . . .

Hulk smashing an asteroid twice the size of Earth sounds odd because hitting something that large from, essentially, a pinpoint would only create a hole, not cause the hole thing to split in half or explode. And there is a limit to Hulk's strength: 150 billion tons would have been nothing to him if he didn't.

I believe the Power Gem "powers up" whatever ability the wielder already has. It was said of supplement or back-up the other Infinity Gems. If the wielder has massive strength, it'll increase that. If they had telepahic abilities, it'd power that up. Used by an average person, it'd probably have minimal effects. Drax, being cosmic powered, and Champion, who has the power primordial, benefit quite a lot from it.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Hulk smashing an asteroid twice the size of Earth sounds odd because hitting something that large from, essentially, a pinpoint would only create a hole, not cause the hole thing to split in half or explode. And there is a limit to Hulk's strength: 150 billion tons would have been nothing to him if he didn't.

I believe the Power Gem "powers up" whatever ability the wielder already has. It was said of supplement or back-up the other Infinity Gems. If the wielder has massive strength, it'll increase that. If they had telepahic abilities, it'd power that up. Used by an average person, it'd probably have minimal effects. Drax, being cosmic powered, and Champion, who has the power primordial, benefit quite a lot from it.

can't use real world science to explain comicbook 'stuff'. you should know better, kvd . . .

don't forget, it was not savage hulk who initially held the mountains. tony (or was it reed?) got him mad and tried forcing the switch because his strength was increasing and savage hulk did not show that the mountain was too much. tony and the others then blasted out so there was no longer a need for him to hold it. don't forget too -- it isn't 'infinite' out of the gate. it would also obviously never reach 'infinity'. there have been many indications that will continually approach infinity, however.

ps -- the gem couldn't even lift drax's strength to a level where he could defeat prof hulk.

Originally posted by leonidas
can't use real world science to explain comicbook 'stuff'. you should know better, kvd . . .

don't forget, it was not savage hulk who initially held the mountains. tony (or was it reed?) got him mad and tried forcing the switch because his strength was increasing and savage hulk did not show that the mountain was too much. tony and the others then blasted out so there was no longer a need for him to hold it. don't forget too -- it isn't 'infinite' out of the gate. it would also obviously never reach 'infinity'. there have been many indications that will continually approach infinity, however.

ps -- the gem couldn't even lift drax's strength to a level where he could defeat prof hulk.

Yeah I know... it was just odd is all.

But when that mountainrange fell on them, the Hulk was already doing fine 'lifting' it without Reed annoying him. But was Reed really making Hulk mad? Because later on Hulk said he knew what Reed was doing by saying all that.

I've only seen one Drax vs Hulk fight and Drax thought they were playing, it was in Infinity Watch I think.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Yeah I know... it was just odd is all.

But when that mountainrange fell on them, the Hulk was already doing fine 'lifting' it without Reed annoying him. But was Reed really making Hulk mad? Because later on Hulk said he knew what Reed was doing by saying all that.

I've only seen one Drax vs Hulk fight and Drax thought they were playing, it was in Infinity Watch I think.

actually, hulk was struggling to hold it initially. that's why they tried to piss him off. the madder he gets . . . banner never actually DID lose it. he was angrier, but he did not revert to savage hulk. that's why you remember that bit about what banner said because it WAS banner who was in (and stayed in) control.

anyway, it's funny when people bring that feat up. i wonder if MOST people know that BANNER was in charge for that feat . . .

oh, and hulk and drax mixed it up a couple times, and there was never anything to show one way or the other that one was stronger. it also appeared that wm thor was certainly stronger than drax even BEFORE thor got the gem.

If you go by PRE RETCON Powergem, then Power Gem takes this no questions asked.

Realistically...Hulk was powered by atomic bombs.....Power Gem is a universal source of infinite energy....

Power Gem all the way baby !

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If you go by PRE RETCON Powergem, then Power Gem takes this no questions asked.

Realistically...Hulk was powered by atomic bombs.....Power Gem is a universal source of infinite energy....

Power Gem all the way baby !

the correlation really doesn't equate, lu. hulk was actually brought into existence via the gamma bomb, but that doesn't mean he can only reach 'gamma bomb' levels. the gamma bomb was a gateway that allowed hulk to emerge, it has no bearing on the level of power he possesses.

preretcon gem gave champ enough power to bust a planet. hulk's done that and much more. AND he doesn't have the power primordial to give him a head start.

NO powergem wielder has accomplished anything that hulk hasn't topped. pre or post retcon. (and you can't use the gem as part of the ig, because as we know the ig collective of gems was greater than the sum of its individual gem parts.)

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Yeah I know... it was just odd is all.

But when that mountainrange fell on them, the Hulk was already doing fine 'lifting' it without Reed annoying him. But was Reed really making Hulk mad? Because later on Hulk said he knew what Reed was doing by saying all that.

I've only seen one Drax vs Hulk fight and Drax thought they were playing, it was in Infinity Watch I think. I remember Hulk saying that he cannot hold it for very long.

This is a good debate actually.

BTW leo that fight with Thor/Juggy in which Thor took away Juggies shield was a kind of fishy story. Juggernaut does not even have his shield up 99% of the time. Actuually Juggernaut has to summon it. That's why his helmet got knocked off all of the time back in the day.

I think that story was written by somebody who didn't do their homework on Juggy.

I saw in one of your post that you said Cyttorak was only at Skyfather lv. I have to disagree with that due to the fact that Cyttorak was able to imprison a non starving Galactus within his realm in Sorcerers Supreme # 49. In another comics Eternity tried to get rid of Cyttorak and failed, so I think thats a little more than Skyfather lv.

You brought up the argument that you take the moment with Juggernauts durability deriving from his shield as cannon. Can you tell me a time when Juggernauts has had his force field activated all the time? according to Marvel you can tell Juggernauts shield is up when a red glow forms around his body. In that fight I didn't see any red glow, but that could be me. In there third fight Juggernaut didn't have his shield up yet he was still completely impervious to harm. It was just kind of weird how that comic threw Juggernauts power completely out of context. If you check the newest Juggernaut bio at Marvel, you'll see that Juggernaut has to call upon his shield with his mind for it to activate around him.

You also stated something to the affect that Juggernauts strength isn't unlimited because Cyttorak is only skyfather lv. Well I already covered the "only Skyfather point" no lets get to the unlimited strength. Hulk a mortal, supposedly has the potential of unlimited strength so why cant a uber lv god give his avatar the potential of unlimited strength? The 8th day saga we got to see Juggernaut in a new light. This was the first time we really ever saw Juggernaut focused and caring enough to do something good. We really have never seen a truly focused Juggernaut besides in the 8th day saga. He always just doesn't care, and only does what he feels like doing. Thus Marvel said that Juggernaut can increase his powers by focusing on the magic energies that run through his body.

it's possible cyttorak is above. i'd put him on dormammu's level. dormmy has been shown by marvel to be considered about skyfather level though he has feats well above as well. odin sometimes is not viewed to be as powerful as he has been protrayed. don't forget, his power was said once to have shaken the multiverse.

as far as juggs strength being infinite -- cyttorak himself does not possess infinite power, so how could he grant it? saying that is like saying that juggs could actually become more powerful than cyttorak!

i'm not gonna argue the shield point anymore, not because i concede it, but because it was not relevent. the relevent point in that battle was that it came down to strength v strength and thor won. a similar situation happened with onslaught. i also explained why i don't think your focussed argument works for me. perhaps it will be shown again, or perhaps it will be mentioned in an up-coming bio (if he regains his power). but, til then . . .

ps-didn't jugg's shield in another battle with thor? and doesn't he use it only if his own durability is not enough? maybe mjollnir was great enough to harm him so for one of the only times against someone he NEEDED to use his shield for extra protection? just a thought . . .

Did he use his shield against Thor in there second or third fight? no yet he still overpowered Thor both times. Shit he nearly killed Thor the third time they fought with a hug, and note this is without his shield. Thus from that scene it appeared that Juggernaut was far stronger than Thor because he simply tossed him around like a rug. This is why so many people disregard there second fight, it went against every thing we know about Juggernaut.

When Juggernaut took the god blast all it did was push him back while he was standing still, and when he was still able to regain himself and walk forward. Note he took the god blast without so much as a scratch.

You stated that Juggernaut's strength couldn't be unlimited because Cyttorak's power isn't unlimited. Well Marvel themselves stated that Juggernaut can call upon the limitless power of Cyttorak, and well whenever he's really needed to do something he's done it. So how can you go against what Marvel clearly stated about his power? Marvel stated that Hulk, a mortal mans strength is unlimited and you seem to agree so whats wrong with Juggernaut a man empowered by a god who is said to have unlimited power strength being unlimited?

I have always understood that Juggernauts's power was force not strength, that he was an unstopable force.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Did he use his shield against Thor in there second or third fight? no yet he still overpowered Thor both times. Shit he nearly killed Thor the third time they fought with a hug, and note this is without his shield. Thus from that scene it appeared that Juggernaut was far stronger than Thor because he simply tossed him around like a rug. This is why so many people disregard there second fight, it went against every thing we know about Juggernaut.

When Juggernaut took the god blast all it did was push him back while he was standing still, and when he was still able to regain himself and walk forward. Note he took the god blast without so much as a scratch.

You stated that Juggernaut's strength couldn't be unlimited because Cyttorak's power isn't unlimited. Well Marvel themselves stated that Juggernaut can call upon the limitless power of Cyttorak, and well whenever he's really needed to do something he's done it. So how can you go against what Marvel clearly stated about his power? Marvel stated that Hulk, a mortal mans strength is unlimited and you seem to agree so whats wrong with Juggernaut a man empowered by a god who is said to have unlimited power strength being unlimited?

it's the source of the power that dictates whether or not it is truly infinite imo. cyttorak doesn't have unltd power, or perhaps rather he has a measure of if. differing scales of infinity can and do exist after all. but certainly cyttorak would fall to thanos with the ig. therefore his power is not truly infinite. the source of hulk's power otoh CAN be infinite. there is no reason to say otherwise. he imagines himself strong enough and he IS strong enough. of course there are cases where this hasn't been shown, but many cases where it has been demonstrated. no character will always be depicted the same or to full abilities. but there really is no reason why the source of hulk's power needs to be finite. which is why i think it could match the power gem -- another supposedly infinite power source. again, even cutting hulk's strength in half or draining him he STILL retains immense power. jugg's cut in half was a cl100 being cut in half.

and you're right -- i and most fans i know DO throw out 8th day as an amped version. i've explained why already. when that level is reached again, or it is stated in a bio that focus increases his strength, then i'll say he wasn't amped. as far as the fights between jugs and thor -- it was always his invulnerability that was the difference. without it, thor showed he was stronger. and it is strength -- no other powers -- that are relevent here.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's the source of the power that dictates whether or not it is truly infinite imo. cyttorak doesn't have unltd power, or perhaps rather he has a measure of if. differing scales of infinity can and do exist after all. but certainly cyttorak would fall to thanos with the ig. therefore his power is not truly infinite. the source of hulk's power otoh CAN be infinite. there is no reason to say otherwise. he imagines himself strong enough and he IS strong enough. of course there are cases where this hasn't been shown, but many cases where it has been demonstrated. no character will always be depicted the same or to full abilities. but there really is no reason why the source of hulk's power needs to be finite. which is why i think it could match the power gem -- another supposedly infinite power source. again, even cutting hulk's strength in half or draining him he STILL retains immense power. jugg's cut in half was a cl100 being cut in half.

and you're right -- i and most fans i know DO throw out 8th day as an amped version. i've explained why already. when that level is reached again, or it is stated in a bio that focus increases his strength, then i'll say he wasn't amped. as far as the fights between jugs and thor -- it was always his invulnerability that was the difference. without it, thor showed he was stronger. and it is strength -- no other powers -- that are relevent here.

So your basing your opinion of Juggernauts power on his second fight with Thor, when in his first and second fight he clearly overpowered Thor in his first and third fight? the second fight was already discredited due to the fact that Juggernauts powers were totally written out of context, according to forum rules those moments in comics are called PIS. Even in there second fight Thor never displayed that he was able to totally overpower Juggernaut like Juggernaut did him, he just displayed to us that he's the far superior fighter. Thats the point though, Juggernaut doesn't need to know how to fight because no one can hurt him.

Your claim that Cyttoraks power isn't unlimited doesn't really make any sense. You claim that Hulk a mortal with now magic abilities whatsoever, imagines becoming stronger and he is, yet a uber god like character on par with Galactus and Eternity(according to feats thus far) cant grant his avatar unlimited powers? Of course since he is the source of the power he can take it away, and thats why Cain could never be greater than him. Besides that Marvel clearly stated that Juggernaut can call on the unlimited power of Cyttorak.

BTW it was already stated by Marvel editors, that Juggernauts powers are unlimited. After the 8th day saga that was a big deal, and they stated that through focus Juggernaut can increase his strength.

Juggernauts power were not cut in half when he lost his connection with Cyttorak, he was stripped of his magical abilities. Thus he no longer can become more powerful, and he's no longer completely impervious to harm. Still though without his magic properties he was able to beat down Alpha Flight while they were wearing HULK BUSTER ARMOR.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
So your basing your opinion of Juggernauts power on his second fight with Thor, when in his first and second fight he clearly overpowered Thor in his first and third fight? the second fight was already discredited due to the fact that Juggernauts powers were totally written out of context, according to forum rules those moments in comics are called PIS. Even in there second fight Thor never displayed that he was able to totally overpower Juggernaut like Juggernaut did him, he just displayed to us that he's the far superior fighter. Thats the point though, Juggernaut doesn't need to know how to fight because no one can hurt him.

Your claim that Cyttoraks power isn't unlimited doesn't really make any sense. You claim that Hulk a mortal with now magic abilities whatsoever, imagines becoming stronger and he is, yet a uber god like character on par with Galactus and Eternity(according to feats thus far) cant grant his avatar unlimited powers? Of course since he is the source of the power he can take it away, and thats why Cain could never be greater than him. Besides that Marvel clearly stated that Juggernaut can call on the unlimited power of Cyttorak.

BTW it was already stated by Marvel editors, that Juggernauts powers are unlimited. After the 8th day saga that was a big deal, and they stated that through focus Juggernaut can increase his strength.

Juggernauts power were not cut in half when he lost his connection with Cyttorak, he was stripped of his magical abilities. Thus he no longer can become more powerful, and he's no longer completely impervious to harm. Still though without his magic properties he was able to beat down Alpha Flight while they were wearing HULK BUSTER ARMOR.

i'm basing it on his consistent showings. his feats are dwarfed by thor and hulk. and there is no reason at all that hulk's source of power couldn't potentially be greater than cyttorak's, who again, very obviously does NOT have 'infinite' power. if he did, his name would be toaa rather than cyttorak. besides, it has been speculated in comics that humans will evolve into uber cosmic entities.

jugg's power was massively decreased when he shared the gem's power with cassidy. both were juggernauts, but only half-strength juggernauts. infinity/2 is not half, it's still infinity.

either way, you seem quite beyond convincing, despite my best efforts. that's fine. you're certainly entitled to your opinion. we'll agree to disagree.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I remember Hulk saying that he cannot hold it for very long.

This is a good debate actually.

BTW leo that fight with Thor/Juggy in which Thor took away Juggies shield was a kind of fishy story. Juggernaut does not even have his shield up 99% of the time. Actuually Juggernaut has to summon it. That's why his helmet got knocked off all of the time back in the day.

I think that story was written by somebody who didn't do their homework on Juggy.

Actually Juggernaut always has his Cyttorak protection. Cain Marko is hardly doctor strange and has never been shown to have any concious control of anything mystical. Therefore it's only logical that he taps into it subconciously.

The poor writing occurs when the helmet gets knocked off. When Thor prevented the Cyttorak shield from protecting Juggernaut, Thor didnt just knock off the helmet, he shattered it with one bare handed punch. The continued to knock Cain Marko around like the ignorant bum he is. If it hadn't been for the 60 second rule, it would be a KO in 60 seconds.

If Thor really wanted to kill him the first punch would have taken him out but as Juggs is a mortal, Thor held back.

To give an indication of how much Thor holds back, even when he lost his mind, Thor didnt actually kill anyone although he had the opportunity to kill everyone he fought save Thanos. The only time he came close to killing anyone during that series was when he was in the midst of battle and truly pissed. BRB and SS were particularly lucky to escape the killing blow as each was whisked away just before the hammer dropped on their battered bodies.

But enough about Thor. Regarding power gem vs Hulk, the best indication is to compare power gem vs thanos and hulk vs thanos. So clearly, the answer is the power gem wins. However under certain circumstance the Hulk should be able to get close.

Power Gem

uh didnt war stop juggernaut provin juggs has a limit thank you

Originally posted by hulk=strength
uh didnt war stop juggernaut provin juggs has a limit thank you

Nope.

Also by chance do you know a fellow by the name of bigboygreen ?

uh yes he did
an no i dont but i know where your gettin at an your gay

Originally posted by hulk=strength
uh yes he did
an no i dont but i know where your gettin at an your gay

.....and your quite obviously a noob. AND a Hulk fanboy. Feel good about this. Wallow in your own self ignorance.

Note Juggernauts spell 'The most powerful being ON EARTH' . War Hulk was tooled up with Celestial tech.

Not only that but H-R Hulk has the power of two universe running through him , amping him up to unspecified levels.

Finally all Hulk did was fling him , no big deal . Thor's pushed back Juggernaut before.

i think he was addressing the previously mentioned 'unltd' power. the showing of celestial tech>juggs means cyttorak's power is clearly not infinite, nor is juggs strength.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think he was addressing the previously mentioned 'unltd' power. the showing of celestial tech>juggs means cyttorak's power is clearly not infinite, nor is juggs strength.

Agreed ... see you Leo, make the Forum a better place !!!!!!!!

Im going for a while !!!!

Originally posted by leonidas
i think he was addressing the previously mentioned 'unltd' power. the showing of celestial tech>juggs means cyttorak's power is clearly not infinite, nor is juggs strength.
Marvel have different lvl of infite

say
leonidas infite power < Kgkg's infite power.

hey it sounds stupid but it seems ones infite power is even greater than others.

Although both the power gem , and hulk can achieve infite power one can still be greater than the other.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think he was addressing the previously mentioned 'unltd' power. the showing of celestial tech>juggs means cyttorak's power is clearly not infinite, nor is juggs strength.

Please , Heroes Reborn was so full of shit it contradicted half of comic-dom .

As i said though Two dimensions override one , not only that but the Celestial tech has to be taken in to account .

Originally posted by kgkg
Marvel have different lvl of infite

say
leonidas infite power < Kgkg's infite power.

hey it sounds stupid but it seems ones infinite power is even greater than others.

Although both the power gem , and hulk can achieve infite power one can still be greater than the other.

the only part of that that sounds funny is the kg>leo at ANYTHING!!

oh, and fox, i have no clue what you're talking about or even if you're talking to me. reborn?

it was said cyttorak and juggs have unltd power to draw on. if it were infinite, war hulk wouldn't have overcome it.

Originally posted by leonidas
the only part of that that sounds funny is the kg>leo at ANYTHING!!

oh, and fox, i have no clue what you're talking about or even if you're talking to me. reborn?

it was said cyttorak and juggs have unltd power to draw on. if it were infinite, war hulk wouldn't have overcome it.

According to your theory War Hulk out of all the Hulks was the only one able to give Juggernaut a good fight. This means that Juggernaut is greater in strength and power than Savage Hulk. This is why Marvel had to give him War Hulk a different degree of unlimited strength. Thus Juggernauts infinite power is greater than Savage Hulks, so they created War Hulk.

Juggernaut has to tap into his power, this is why we rarely see Juggernauts power increase.

Another time Juggernaut was able to increase his power was when he fought D'Spayre. Although he lost 90% of his power, he was able to get mad which was clearly stated in the comic and boost his powers back up. Thus he was able to walk, and talk with his body reduced to a skeleton.

BTW Juggernaut had to have a good fight with War Hulk, to show that War Hulk was a much more powerful Hulk. If War Hulk wasn't a far more powerful Hulk, then Marvel wouldn't have created him.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
According to your theory War Hulk out of all the Hulks was the only one able to give Juggernaut a good fight. This means that Juggernaut is greater in strength and power than Savage Hulk. This is why Marvel had to give him War Hulk a different degree of unlimited strength. Thus Juggernauts infinite power is greater than Savage Hulks, so they created War Hulk.

Juggernaut has to tap into his power, this is why we rarely see Juggernauts power increase.

Another time Juggernaut was able to increase his power was when he fought D'Spayre. Although he lost 90% of his power, he was able to get mad which was clearly stated in the comic and boost his powers back up. Thus he was able to walk, and talk with his body reduced to a skeleton.

BTW Juggernaut had to have a good fight with War Hulk, to show that War Hulk was a much more powerful Hulk. If War Hulk wasn't a far more powerful Hulk, then Marvel wouldn't have created him.



in hulk 172 (??) hulk tossed juggs all over the place and clearly had the upperhand in the fight before tossing him through a mountain and walking away. juggs couldn't even defeat prof definitively without the element of surprise.

there's no reason to think savage couldn't reach war level either. to the best of my knowledge savage has never really TRIED to stop juggs . . .

Originally posted by leonidas


in hulk 172 (??) hulk tossed juggs all over the place and clearly had the upperhand in the fight before tossing him through a mountain and walking away. juggs couldn't even defeat prof definitively without the element of surprise.

there's no reason to think savage couldn't reach war level either. to the best of my knowledge savage has never really TRIED to stop juggs . . .

Are you serious? Juggernaut in that fight nearly broke Hulks neck. That fight only ended because Juggernaut in some magicle way was ko'd by tk. Juggernaut said Hulk was to dumb to understand that he was unstoppable.

When they fought the second time surprise or not Hulk had enough time to recover, but he didn't. In that fight it was clear that Juggernaut was just too much for Hulk.

Did you read Hulk 172? do you have the scans? because I do

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Are you serious? Juggernaut in that fight nearly broke Hulks neck. That fight only ended because Juggernaut in some magicle way was ko'd by tk. Juggernaut said Hulk was to dumb to understand that he was unstoppable.

When they fought the second time surprise or not Hulk had enough time to recover, but he didn't. In that fight it was clear that Juggernaut was just too much for Hulk.

Did you read Hulk 172? do you have the scans? because I do the fight favored hulk in the end

So because he got the last throw in befor the fight was interupted he won?

Originally posted by leonidas


in hulk 172 (??) hulk tossed juggs all over the place and clearly had the upperhand in the fight before tossing him through a mountain and walking away. juggs couldn't even defeat prof definitively without the element of surprise.

there's no reason to think savage couldn't reach war level either. to the best of my knowledge savage has never really TRIED to stop juggs . . .

BTW in Hulk 172 it stated that Juggernauts strength can and was growing.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Did he use his shield against Thor in there second or third fight? no yet he still overpowered Thor both times. Shit he nearly killed Thor the third time they fought with a hug, and note this is without his shield.

Thus from that scene it appeared that Juggernaut was far stronger than Thor because he simply tossed him around like a rug. This is why so many people disregard there second fight, it went against every thing we know about Juggernaut.


Rubbish. Not only was that stupid writing (Thor cannot breathe so he almost dies but he can survive in space and underwater without air??) but even with the stupid writing, they never portrayed Juggernaut as overpowered Thor with strength. In fact, when Thor was telling the civilians to run away, he was able to block the Juggernaut's blows with his arms.

Juggernaut simply used superior reach when he couldnt breach Thor's defenses with his punching. The same way Maxam used his longer reach to pick up Hercules (who is stronger) and tossed him away into the ocean or Goliath able to pick up and smash the much stronger Hercules into a coma.

Even worse was that they wrote thor as being too stupid to disable the cytorrak with his hammer as he did the first time. In other words, it was simply idiotic writing.



Thanks to the cytorrak protection and the fact that it wasnt a full god-blast. Even the one that almost killed Galactus wasnt a full-god blast. When the cyttorak enchantments are removed Cain Marko is revealed to be just another punk in need of some good old fashioned corporal punishment.



Because everything is limited and people just say unlimited to make it sound impressive. Hulk's strength was supposedly "unlimited" but War Hulk is clearly far more powerful than any other version of the hulk and equal to the mystical enchantment of the Cyttorak that makes Juggernauts forward motion "unstoppable".

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Rubbish. Not only was that stupid writing (Thor cannot breathe so he almost dies but he can survive in space and underwater without air??) but even with the stupid writing, they never portrayed Juggernaut as overpowered Thor with strength. In fact, when Thor was telling the civilians to run away, he was able to block the Juggernaut's blows with his arms.

Juggernaut simply used superior reach when he couldnt breach Thor's defenses with his punching. The same way Maxam used his longer reach to pick up Hercules (who is stronger) and tossed him away into the ocean or Goliath able to pick up and smash the much stronger Hercules into a coma.

Even worse was that they wrote thor as being too stupid to disable the cytorrak with his hammer as he did the first time. In other words, it was simply idiotic writing.



Thanks to the cytorrak protection and the fact that it wasnt a full god-blast. Even the one that almost killed Galactus wasnt a full-god blast. When the cyttorak enchantments are removed Cain Marko is revealed to be just another punk in need of some good old fashioned corporal punishment.



Because everything is limited and people just say unlimited to make it sound impressive. Hulk's strength was supposedly "unlimited" but War Hulk is clearly far more powerful than any other version of the hulk and equal to the mystical enchantment of the Cyttorak that makes Juggernauts forward motion "unstoppable".

In one panel did he tell Civilians to run away, the others he was just getting his head banged in, so get at me. How was he able to block Juggernauts blows? Thor was getting tossed through buildings in such the whole time.

So your saying that because his reach is longer Juggernaut was able to overpower Thor? sorry my friend, but that doesn't make much sense. Lets use basketball players for example, we both know that Yao Mings reach is far more than Lebron James. Does that mean that Yao can overpower LeBron? well no. People who have far greater reach than me cant overpower me, it deals with strength not reach.

How many times are you going to ignore my argument with Juggernauts shield? Can you tell me a time when Juggernauts has had his force field activated all the time? according to Marvel you can tell Juggernauts shield is up when a red glow forms around his body. In that fight I didn't see any red glow, but that could be me. In there third fight Juggernaut didn't have his shield up yet he was still completely impervious to harm. It was just kind of weird how that comic threw Juggernauts power completely out of context. If you check the newest Juggernaut bio at Marvel, you'll see that Juggernaut has to call upon his shield with his mind for it to activate around him. Did he use his shield against Thor in there second or third fight? no yet he still overpowered Thor both times. Shit he nearly killed Thor the third time they fought with a hug, and note this is without his shield. Thus from that scene it appeared that Juggernaut was far stronger than Thor because he simply tossed him around like a rug. This is why so many people disregard there second fight, it went against every thing we know about Juggernaut.

Now tell me why thats the only time Juggernauts shield has ever derived from his shield?

Cyttoraks protection on Juggernaut has nothing to do with the power of Thors god blast so where did you get that from?

Originally posted by grey fox
Nope.

Also by chance do you know a fellow by the name of bigboygreen ?

Nah, I checked.

Anyway, try not to act too much like an ignorant fanboy hulk=strength (with name-calling and such). With a name like that, if you manage to overcome that stigma, it'll be a small miracle.

Originally posted by leonidas


in hulk 172 (??) hulk tossed juggs all over the place and clearly had the upperhand in the fight before tossing him through a mountain and walking away. juggs couldn't even defeat prof definitively without the element of surprise.

there's no reason to think savage couldn't reach war level either. to the best of my knowledge savage has never really TRIED to stop juggs . . .

???
What are you talking about 'clearly had the upper hand'? Cain was beating Hulk's ass the only time he 'threw him all over the place' was once and that was when he threw him into the mountain. Juggernaut wasn't even hurt how cna Hulk have had the advantage.

Originally posted by Warmonger
???
What are you talking about 'clearly had the upper hand'? Cain was beating Hulk's ass the only time he 'threw him all over the place' was once and that was when he threw him into the mountain. Juggernaut wasn't even hurt how cna Hulk have had the advantage.

did you ever read the issue? by upperhand i was referring to strength, btw. if you think hulk did NOT appear the stronger of the 2, no reason to answer my initial question.

Originally posted by leonidas
nice.

and i'd really like to know how my topic got changed into a juggs v hulk and thor thread . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
nice.

and i'd really like to know how my topic got changed into a juggs v hulk and thor thread . . .

My bad for gettin off topic, this is just a nice debate without all the ridicule and name calling.

POWER GEM

Originally posted by Soujaboy
My bad for gettin off topic, this is just a nice debate without all the ridicule and name calling.

no worries. i was just kidding. we could continue this anytime in the proper thread.

hulks stronger than juggs can ever comprehend whys that an argument

his strength has never had the word unlimited near it

juggs in 8th day form just proved you cant take away wat he already has

and uh remember gardener hulk handled him an got wat thanos couldnt

I'm sorry, but I cant react to your post because I cant understand what your saying?

Originally posted by leonidas
no worries. i was just kidding. we could continue this anytime in the proper thread.
Now why would we do that?
Originally posted by Soujaboy
I'm sorry, but I cant react to your post because I cant understand what your saying?
Co-sign

War Hulk was clearly made to be stronger than Savage Hulk. I mean come on he was drawing power not just from Celestial Tech, but from two separate dimensions. Juggernaut even able to stalemate War Hulk is a great feat all in it's own.

Imp, Juggernaut had the upper hand in there first fight with Hulk getting the last toss in. I now understand what you were saying about the ambush, Juggernaut did hit him from behind. Thats Cain for though, just a big sob.

all i said was an enraged hulk is many times stronger than juggs will ever be

i can only type small replies cause my computers gay

two dimensions wtf all he had was celestial tech an that just replaced wat he lost

savage hulk would have very well caught up to war hulk in strength in minutes

how do you amp infinite strngth

What? you must not have read the comic, because it clearly stated that War Hulk was drawing power from two separate dimensions. I think one was the Hero's Reborn Universe, and the other I'm not sure.

hulks stronger than juggs can ever comprehend whys that an argument his strength has never had the word unlimited near it

uh read all my posts

war hulk can not be enraged so his base strength is higher than savages

Originally posted by hulk=strength
how do you amp infinite strngth

You know whats funny? thats the same thing exact thing the editors and writers said about Juggernaut after the 8th day saga.

I don't know how you amp infinite ask Marvel, but either way it was stated that War Hulk was drawing power from two different dimensions along with his celestial tech. War Hulk was also called the strongest Hulk incarnation, so he must be stronger than Savage Hulk.

but... hulk has potential 4 unlimited strength makin base strength near irrelevant

dude proffesor hulk is rated as stronger than savage at times..... savage is the strongest

I guess he doesn't have unlimited strength since Marvel felt the need to create War Hulk.

juggs doesnt have unlmted strength im sorry its never been said by any writer why is this an argument

you said hulk doesnt have unlimited strength but juggs does let me direct you to ONSLAUGHT

Debating with you is annoying because you don't bring up any valid points. You just say " Savage Hulks The Strongest" totally ignoring War Hulks power.

an the fact that juggs power has been split in half...how do you split sumthin unlmted in half hmmmm

the same can be said about you cause all you have is speculation nuthin you say has been proven

Originally posted by hulk=strength
you said hulk doesnt have unlimited strength but juggs does let me direct you to ONSLAUGHT

That was a depowered Juggernaut, he was depowered in the New exiles book right before the Onslaught saga. Even if he did have his powers though he still would have lost, due to all the powers Onslaught has.

Hulks lost to people far weaker than Onslaught, let me direct you to Spiderman, or Namor, or Thing.

must I go on?

Originally posted by hulk=strength
the same can be said about you cause all you have is speculation nuthin you say has been proven

If you open a comic and look in it, since I have given you issues than you'll know it's right.

Jump out of Hulks ass for a second and you might learn somethin

how bot you get juggs dick an balls out of yours an argue fact not fiction
B.I.T.C.H

Originally posted by hulk=strength
how bot you get juggs dick an balls out of yours an argue fact not fiction
B.I.T.C.H

You could work on your punctuation, people might be able to understand what your trying to say. I'm not perfect but I think people can understand what I'm saying, cant say the same for you.

Ill just ignore the rest of your ignorance, and leave that to the mods to take care of.

Anyways back on topic, what did I say that was fiction?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
I guess he doesn't have unlimited strength since Marvel felt the need to create War Hulk.
I guess War supposedly had a higher base strength, but again I see no reason for Savage to reach the very same level of strength that War displayed.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
That was a depowered Juggernaut, he was depowered in the New exiles book right before the Onslaught saga. Even if he did have his powers though he still would have lost, due to all the powers Onslaught has.

Hulks lost to people far weaker than Onslaught, let me direct you to Spiderman, or Namor, or Thing.

must I go on?
Eh, pointing out the people Hulk has lost against isn't really the best way to go. Juggernaut has also lost against Spider-Man and Venom.

Originally posted by hulk=strength
how bot you get juggs dick an balls out of yours an argue fact not fiction
B.I.T.C.H
Dude, seriously, you can stop the insults and you don't have to post one sentence in each post every minute.

Originally posted by Accel
I guess War supposedly had a higher base strength, but again I see no reason for Savage to reach the very same level of strength that War displayed.


Eh, pointing out the people Hulk has lost against isn't really the best way to go. Juggernaut has also lost against Spider-Man and Venom.


Dude, seriously, you can stop the insults and you don't have to post one sentence in each post every minute.

War Hulk, according to Marvel had no base strength, but I'm not sure so you'll just have to ask them.

The only reason I pointed that out was because he brought up Juggernaut losing to Onslaught.

Spiderman physically defeated Hulk, he tried everything on Juggernaut and nothing happened. By a just got lucky that Juggernaut walked in to cement.

In the Venom fight Juggernaut nearly killed the guy, and this is while he was powered up. They fought again and Juggernaut just left the fight. Those do count as win though so your correct.

hmm, i went back and checked out that juggy one-shot with d'spayre. i still am not totally sure, but i wonder if he was able to keep going even as a skeleton because of spite? he is surrounded by a pink glow, the same glow that surrounds spite and juggs also says that the only thing that keeps him going is HATE! hate and spite are the same things, and juggs seemed pretty sure that spite was about to kill him at the end. it's just such a bizarre showing that it seems it needs some sort of explanation . . .

uh my computers gay i have to post like this

uh soujaboy i respect u .....but how can u be depowered if you have unlimited strength

last point savage is more powerful than all incarnations cause he can reach any lvl of strength ...

Originally posted by hulk=strength
last point savage is more powerful than all incarnations cause he can reach any lvl of strength ...

Not "any" level, but any level up to his physical limit. Even in his most enraged state he has been matched by other characters. There is not a chance in hell he is stronger than Drax the Destroyer with the Power Gem.

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Not "any" level, but any level up to his physical limit. Even in his most enraged state he has been matched by other characters. There is not a chance in hell he is stronger than Drax the Destroyer with the Power Gem.
Well, that's the thing- he doesn't have a physical limit.

And as someone said before, didn't Hulk already stalemate Drax w/ the Power Gem?

guys hulks strength is unlimited thats why its pointless to put a strength character against him

savage is by far the strongest incarnation cause hes as strong as he is mad an he gets EXTREMELY MAD

check this out juggs strength is uncalcuble but hulks is unlimted meaning it has no limit

uncalcuble<unlimited .......check marvel.com if you dont believe me

last point thor is a good character but has not had very great showins vs hulk an juggs recently

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Not "any" level, but any level up to his physical limit. Even in his most enraged state he has been matched by other characters. There is not a chance in hell he is stronger than Drax the Destroyer with the Power Gem.

proof? drax couldn't even beat prof and was one-punched by thanos. he was also shown to be physically inferior to wm thor BEFORE thor took his gem. hulk as maestro battled wm thor to a draw.

so, you sounded pretty sure. again i say: proof?

an savage is stronger than maestro

Originally posted by hulk=strength
uh soujaboy i respect u .....but how can u be depowered if you have unlimited strength

The reason is because Cyttorak stripped him of his power, and cut off his connection. Thus making him unable to draw power from the crimson cosmos. Now with all his power stripped his strength is still incalculable, and ranked at lv 7. Now just think about him with his strength.

an extradimensional power source versus the sum total of an entire universe that pre-dates this one. i'd have to go with the power gem on this one. but of course it all depends on the bearer.

Originally posted by hulk=strength
savage is by far the strongest incarnation cause hes as strong as he is mad an he gets EXTREMELY MAD

actually mindless and bannerless are hulk's strongest incarnations.

actually there about equal an good point