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1 Samuel 15:2-3

Voltaire: "Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities"

Surely one can't believe they are more righteous than God? So how is it that many who claim to believe1 Samuel 15:2-3 is truthfully said of God, find that what God commands men to do in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 is contrary to their own sense of what is righteous? For 1 Samuel 15:2-3 perfectly illustrates a perverse belief of God, that any sane person should find repugnant to their own sense of what is righteous. There is no difference, whatsoever, in the vileness done by Islamist terrorists on 9/11 and the vileness of 1 Samuel 15:2-3. The evil deeds of both are manifestations of insane beliefs of God. For the Hitlerian like commands in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 reflect not the mind of God, but a depraved mind. No child of God can stand before God or men and truthfully say that what is said of God in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 has not troubled them. The best they can say is they have believed it because they were fearful not to believe it, which is the evidence of being in bondage to an unrighteous fear of God.

1 Samuel 15:2-3 Thus says the Lord of hosts,.. (3) Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camels and donkey!

How can any sound-minded person not see the utter depravity of saying God commanded men to be the butchers of men and women, which by itself is vile enough, but that God even commanded that they be the butchers of children and infants? To believe that God is that bloody butcher in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 leaves little need of a devil to fear. Common sense alone should tell one that had God wanted the Amalekites destroyed, He would have done it Himself!

Unlike the primitive mumbo jumbo in the claims of the Great flood and the slaying of the firstborn of Egypt, where God is said to do the dirty work, 1 Samuel 15:2-3 has God commanding that men do the dirty work. Thus, it can be personalized by simply imagining one's self in that scenario. By making it personal, one has to visualize the horror of that bloody scene. They must see the sword in their own hand and the terror in the eyes of those whom they are to butcher and hear the screams of women and children literally being hacked to death in front of one another. It is in making this bloody atrocity personal that it becomes real, rather than just some ancient abstract account. It should force one to truthfully consider whether or not they could have been obedient to the claims of priests: It's the command of God! And to honestly question whether or not they could love one that would command them to do such horrible things.

Only morons and lunatics could think that butchering people is not an atrocity. And only a liar would claim that God has personally told them that 1 Samuel 15:2-3 speaks truthfully of Him. Thus, the only excuse a sane sound minded person can offer for not questioning what 1 Samuel 15:2-3 says of God, is that they are fearful of questioning what the Bible claims, which is the evidence of their bondage to an unrighteous fear of God.

Yet not everyone that claims to believe what 1 Samuel 15:2-3 says of God does so out of an unrighteous fear of God, but believe it because it agrees with their spiritual nature. Their spiritual nature is different than those who if Moses commanded them to stone another would seek a small pebble and hoped it caused no harm; for they would seek a large rock and be happy for the harm it would cause. Much is revealed about the spirituality and mentality of those who try to rationalize the butchery of people in 1 Samuel 15:2-3. For they argue that those who were ripping terrified children from their mother's arms and bashing their brains out were righteous before God because God commanded this slaughter. Regardless of how one tries to justify 1 Samuel 15:2-3, there is no nice way to butcher people. Trying to put a happy face on the vile deeds of 1 Samuel 15:2-3 requires the same kind of twisted thinking that Islamic terrorists are using today in Iraq to justify the evil that they do.

Harrington Sites - Revealing the Spiritual duality of the Bible. For it serves neither God nor truth to try and rationalize irrational things the Bible says of God.

All of this is because the god of bible is a false god made by man. And these people needed a way to rationalize the war crimes they committed. Christianity can be just as evil as any religion that is subject to a childish god.

cheers

See it doesn't make since does it....

This thread should be answered by some Christians!

Waiting.....whistling

Hay! spencerspider

Answer this thread.

o hi wow i thought this was just discussing some verse lol but hmm lets see so are you saying that God is wrongbecause he told Israel to go kill the Amakelites? ok lets see well this is hard but i would have to say that the amakelites were very bad heathens and God had warned them somehow, but they didnt listen. I really do not have a great answer, but Christians are not just supposed to sit there and be happy little people and let everyone run over them, if the amakalites were wicked and powerful, and maybe even tried to kill some Christians (well they were not Christians back then but Israelites) anyway so He told them to wipe them out to show that if you try to hurt his people, that He will get you sooner or later.
Ask KPrince on this too I would like to see what he says.

And kill inocent little babies........

Originally posted by debbiejo
And kill inocent little babies........



Sounds more like an evil god.

Let's kill it before the evil god kills more in It's name.bash <<<<<--------look, it keeps popping back up....It won't die.....

Originally posted by debbiejo
Let's kill it before the evil god kills more in It's name.bash <<<<<--------look, it keeps popping back up....It won't die.....

Run away........

*Runs*

Am I gone yet?

We need some more Christians to address this problem. The god of the OT, was an evil god. How did killing his son make him good?

Originally posted by wlh
1 Samuel 15:2-3

Voltaire: "Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities"

Surely one can't believe they are more righteous than God? So how is it that many who claim to believe1 Samuel 15:2-3 is truthfully said of God, find that what God commands men to do in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 is contrary to their own sense of what is righteous? For 1 Samuel 15:2-3 perfectly illustrates a perverse belief of God, that any sane person should find repugnant to their own sense of what is righteous. There is no difference, whatsoever, in the vileness done by Islamist terrorists on 9/11 and the vileness of 1 Samuel 15:2-3. The evil deeds of both are manifestations of insane beliefs of God. For the Hitlerian like commands in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 reflect not the mind of God, but a depraved mind. No child of God can stand before God or men and truthfully say that what is said of God in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 has not troubled them. The best they can say is they have believed it because they were fearful not to believe it, which is the evidence of being in bondage to an unrighteous fear of God.

1 Samuel 15:2-3 Thus says the Lord of hosts,.. (3) Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camels and donkey!

How can any sound-minded person not see the utter depravity of saying God commanded men to be the butchers of men and women, which by itself is vile enough, but that God even commanded that they be the butchers of children and infants? To believe that God is that bloody butcher in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 leaves little need of a devil to fear. Common sense alone should tell one that had God wanted the Amalekites destroyed, He would have done it Himself!

Unlike the primitive mumbo jumbo in the claims of the Great flood and the slaying of the firstborn of Egypt, where God is said to do the dirty work, 1 Samuel 15:2-3 has God commanding that men do the dirty work. Thus, it can be personalized by simply imagining one's self in that scenario. By making it personal, one has to visualize the horror of that bloody scene. They must see the sword in their own hand and the terror in the eyes of those whom they are to butcher and hear the screams of women and children literally being hacked to death in front of one another. It is in making this bloody atrocity personal that it becomes real, rather than just some ancient abstract account. It should force one to truthfully consider whether or not they could have been obedient to the claims of priests: It's the command of God! And to honestly question whether or not they could love one that would command them to do such horrible things.

Only morons and lunatics could think that butchering people is not an atrocity. And only a liar would claim that God has personally told them that 1 Samuel 15:2-3 speaks truthfully of Him. Thus, the only excuse a sane sound minded person can offer for not questioning what 1 Samuel 15:2-3 says of God, is that they are fearful of questioning what the Bible claims, which is the evidence of their bondage to an unrighteous fear of God.

Yet not everyone that claims to believe what 1 Samuel 15:2-3 says of God does so out of an unrighteous fear of God, but believe it because it agrees with their spiritual nature. Their spiritual nature is different than those who if Moses commanded them to stone another would seek a small pebble and hoped it caused no harm; for they would seek a large rock and be happy for the harm it would cause. Much is revealed about the spirituality and mentality of those who try to rationalize the butchery of people in 1 Samuel 15:2-3. For they argue that those who were ripping terrified children from their mother's arms and bashing their brains out were righteous before God because God commanded this slaughter. Regardless of how one tries to justify 1 Samuel 15:2-3, there is no nice way to butcher people. Trying to put a happy face on the vile deeds of 1 Samuel 15:2-3 requires the same kind of twisted thinking that Islamic terrorists are using today in Iraq to justify the evil that they do.

Harrington Sites - Revealing the Spiritual duality of the Bible. For it serves neither God nor truth to try and rationalize irrational things the Bible says of God.

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." I Samuel 15:2-3

Pertaining to these verses, the question must be posed: who are we, the created, to question the Creator? God gave life, and can take it away. The ancient Israelites chose this situation to occur. God would have dealt with the Amalekites personally, but Israel did not want God to rule over them, they wanted a human king like the nations around them had established for themselves. Yet, any problems that occurred, Israel sought God for help. This is the case in I Samuel 15:2-3. Read the book of Job for the answer to your question wlh.

Originally posted by KPrince
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." I Samuel 15:2-3

Pertaining to these verses, the question must be posed: who are we, the created, to question the Creator? Ummmm yeah, since we are looking at his character.
Originally posted by KPrince

Why? Because they are human...And the god of the Bible is all knowing.....He should of forseen it shouldn't he....And prevented the slotter, since he is the god of love......

Oh and the book of Job would make me NOT want to be a believer..

Originally posted by debbiejo
Ummmm yeah, since we are looking at his character.

The book of Job deals with this.

Why? Because they are human...And the god of the Bible is all knowing.

The book of Job is what you should read

Oh and the book of Job would make me NOT want to be a believer..

A believer? A believer in what? In God? Sure, people believe in God, but do they believe God...no. The human mind hates God, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7

If the human mind hates God, why should it believe God?

Originally posted by KPrince
A believer? A believer in what? In God? Sure, people believe in God, but do they believe God...no. The human mind hates God, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7

If the human mind hates God, why should it believe God? Which law are you pertaining too?

I believe in god.

Originally posted by KPrince
A believer? A believer in what? In God? Sure, people believe in God, but do they believe God...no. The human mind hates God, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7

If the human mind hates God, why should it believe God?

What a painful and evil way of looking at the human condition. Do you not see that the idea that you have conveyed about is contradictory to the teachings of Jesus. Yes, there are parts of the bible that are untrue and not in agreement with the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Which law are you pertaining too?

I believe in god.

What law am I pertaining too? I made no reference to a law, but if I must state one, it is the first commandment. You believe in "god"...do you mean the god within you? If so, then that is not the God I am talking about. However, the question by wlh referred to the God of the Bible, and as such, I suggested the book of Job as a starting place.

Originally posted by KPrince
God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7

If the human mind hates God, why should it believe God? You did.....just wondered what law as all....and yes, I've read Job..

Who says human minds hate god?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What a painful and evil way of looking at the human condition. Do you not see that the idea that you have conveyed about is contradictory to the teachings of Jesus. Yes, there are parts of the bible that are untrue and not in agreement with the teachings of Jesus.

Nothing I have said is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. The same ten commandments of the Old Testament apply to Jesus. He Himself said that He has not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

Originally posted by debbiejo
You did.....just wondered what law as all....and yes, I've read Job..

Who says human minds hate god?

The human mind hates God. The God I am referring to is the God of the OT and NT--same God. Ancient Israel hated God, they did not want God to rule over them, they wanted a human king. In Jesus' time, humans hated God, they devised their concept of what God was, and when God came, they were angry because He did not fulfill what they expected...they crucified Him. Present Day: humanity still hates God. Now many profess love for God, but when it comes to doing what God says, they reason around it (so as not to confuse anyone, I am referring to God's Commandments and statutes as listed in the OT and still relevant in the NT). "I love God, BUT..." some say or "I love Jesus, BUT..." others will say. We hate God and God knows this. He sent Prophets...we killed or exiled them. He sends Jesus...we kill Him. God speaks in this day and age, we ignore or curse God. We ridicule God, use The Father and Son's Name in vain. We ask that God stays out of our lives until we run into problems, then we call for God or blame God for what happens to us. We have to examine ourselves and truly realize that YES we hate God.

Originally posted by KPrince
Nothing I have said is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. The same ten commandments of the Old Testament apply to Jesus. He Himself said that He has not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. ...

It is just my opinion. BTW I have read the bible and I know the teachings of Jesus, I do not agree with the teachings of Paul. I believe Paul's teachings differer from those of Jesus. But this is just my opinion, and I respect that you have a different one.

Well KPrince, I don't hate god at all, I just have a different view of god, much larger than the Bible...I know there are only 2 cammandments from Jesus, and it is said that the first 4 are to love god, and the last 6 are how to love man......But still Jesus and Paul did differ......If you only take what Jesus said....It would be to love god, and to love people...That is all that is neededKPrince, do you still believe in the OT commandments?....Are you SDA?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well KPrince, I don't hate god at all, I just have a different view of god, much larger than the Bible...I know there are only 2 cammandments from Jesus, and it is said that the first 4 are to love god, and the last 6 are how to love man......But still Jesus and Paul did differ......If you only take what Jesus said....It would be to love god, and to love people...That is all that is neededKPrince, do you still believe in the OT commandments?....Are you SDA?

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." Spoken by Jesus in John 14:15

Do I still believe in the OT commandments? Yes.

Am I SDA? What is SDA? Seventh Day Adventist? If so, then No, I am not SDA.

No SDA...OK..sure,

Then Jesus' 2 commandments were
1. love god
2. Love people

Nothing else.

Now a person has to have a working definition of what love god is.

Originally posted by debbiejo
No SDA...OK..sure,

Then Jesus' 2 commandments were
1. love god
2. Love people

Nothing else.

Now a person has to have a working definition of what love god is.

I see your argument about Jesus' "two" commandments. Actually, the "two" commandments Jesus was referring to are indeed the Ten given to ancient Israel in the OT.

And I am not SDA, I assure you.

But you keep on winking at me....are you SDA?

So then, love people, and love god....That's it right?

Originally posted by debbiejo
But you keep on winking at me....are you SDA?

I am not SDA

So then, love people, and love god....That's it right?

Yes, but this is easier said than done, which is why Paul said that the human mind is enmity against God. We hate God's commandments, call them oppressive and restraining. I spoke to you about the Two Trees in another thread. What happened at the Garden of Eden explains mankind's "enmity" towards God. You read the Bible debbiejo, you read where time and time again God says that people rejected Him, they rejected His Son, and they rejected His apostles and profits. Why? Paul explained why. It is as true today as it was anciently, and as strange as it seems--it is true--humanity hates God.

Originally posted by KPrince
Yes, but this is easier said than done, which is why Paul said that the human mind is enmity against God. We hate God's commandments, call them oppressive and restraining. I spoke to you about the Two Trees in another thread. What happened at the Garden of Eden explains mankind's "enmity" towards God. You read the Bible debbiejo, you read where time and time again God says that people rejected Him, they rejected His Son, and they rejected His apostles and profits. Why? Paul explained why. It is as true today as it was anciently, and as strange as it seems--it is true--humanity hates God.

Paul, Paul, Not Paul..He taught much against much of what Jesus taught, and the OT.....Just speak of what Jesus taught.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Paul, Paul, Not Paul..He taught much against much of what Jesus taught, and the OT.....Just speak of what Jesus taught.

You and Paul...

Anyways, the "two" commandments of Jesus, as I said before, are in fact the Ten of the OT, and it is these commandments that man rejects. God has said over and over that they reject Him (by Him I mean the Father who is the Law Giver, not to confuse anyone). Jesus was rejected too.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Paul, Paul, Not Paul..He taught much against much of what Jesus taught, and the OT.....Just speak of what Jesus taught.

If I must stay with Jesus' quotes than so be it.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." John 14:23-24

Then Jesus got even more specific, when He said "But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do..." John 14:31

So if we Love God (The Father and His Son Jesus) then we will keep the commandments of God.

Originally posted by KPrince
You and Paul...

Anyways, the "two" commandments of Jesus, as I said before, are in fact the Ten of the OT, and it is these commandments that man rejects. God has said over and over that they reject Him (by Him I mean the Father who is the Law Giver, not to confuse anyone). Jesus was rejected too. OH, you noticed my problem with Paul... Even the Jews will look at what Jesus taught, but know Paul spoke much differently then the OT taught....Personally I feel Paul screwed up the church teachings....

Jesus was more in line with the big 10, but Paul added his own views on things...

As for Jesus being god, that open for interpretation.........mmmm hmmm...yep....

I feel Jesus was telling us we could become like him, one with the father, and father really isn't male, since a god couldn't be male or female...what and why would it....It was for familiarity....Father or Mother.....Just like in Proverbs, wisdom is feminine....yep.

Originally posted by debbiejo
OH, you noticed my problem with Paul... Even the Jews will look at what Jesus taught, but know Paul spoke much differently then the OT taught....Personally I feel Paul screwed up the church teachings....

Jesus was more in line with the big 10, but Paul added his own views on things...

As for Jesus being god, that open for interpretation.........mmmm hmmm...yep....

I feel Jesus was telling us we could become like him, one with the father, and father really isn't male, since a god couldn't be male or female...what and why would it....It was for familiarity....Father or Mother.....Just like in Proverbs, wisdom is feminine....yep.

True God is neither male or female in terms of human gender. Well debbiejo, if Jesus is telling us we could become like Him, then keeping the "big 10" is necessary, because Jesus said to keep them, and keeping them shows God that we love God.

Originally posted by KPrince
True God is neither male or female in terms of human gender. Well debbiejo, if Jesus is telling us we could become like Him, then keeping the "big 10" is necessary, because Jesus said to keep them, and keeping them shows God that we love God. Jesus said

1....Love god with all your heart and mind and soul

2....And love your neighbor as yourself...

You still have have a working meaning of what "Love god" means though.....

And for loving your neighbor, I think most intelligent people can figure that one out....

Originally posted by debbiejo
Jesus said

1....Love god with all your heart and mind and soul

2....And love your neighbor as yourself...

You still have have a working meaning of what "Love god" means though.....

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." I John 5:3

That is the love that humanity lacks.

Originally posted by KPrince
A believer? A believer in what? In God? Sure, people believe in God, but do they believe God...no. The human mind hates God, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7

If the human mind hates God, why should it believe God?
Thanks for this scripture. The world will always find fault with God for they cannot comprehend Him with their carnal mind for everything about God is for the spirit. And neither do they want to be subject to God's laws but prefer to live via their own rules.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Paul, Paul, Not Paul..He taught much against much of what Jesus taught, and the OT.....Just speak of what Jesus taught.
It is all in your mind!!!

Originally posted by sonnet
It is all in your mind!!! It's not in my mind, Even the Jews will look at some of Jesus words and see him as a teacher, but they see Paul as a heretic of their faith......Paul goes against OT teachings.

Originally posted by KPrince
Originally posted by debbiejo
Jesus said

1....Love god with all your heart and mind and soul

2....And love your neighbor as yourself...

You still have have a working meaning of what "Love god" means though.....

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." I John 5:3

That is the love that humanity lacks.

Yes, that we keep the 2 commandments according to Jesus...And I don't see what so hard about loving all of creation and the creation process, god or what ever you want to call it, and loving people...

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes, that we keep the 2 commandments according to Jesus...And I don't see what so hard about loving all of creation and the creation process, god or what ever you want to call it, and loving people...

Yes you do debbiejo, you see what is so hard about it in the world. You see the Religious conflict in America, in the Middle East, in Europe. You see the wars past and present, will you still say that you cannot see what is so hard about loving all of creation and loving people?

Originally posted by KPrince
Yes you do debbiejo, you see what is so hard about it in the world. You see the Religious conflict in America, in the Middle East, in Europe. You see the wars past and present, will you still say that you cannot see what is so hard about loving all of creation and loving people? For me it's not hard.....If you see your self as part of it, why would you want to harm any of it, which would include our connection to other people......The earth, people...everything...

Much of the people comes from Organized religions, not the seekers of peace and connecting with the "Source"....People who connect more spiritually instead of dogma, don't try to conqure in the name of religion.

Originally posted by debbiejo
For me it's not hard.....If you see your self as part of it, why would you want to harm any of it, which would include our connection to other people......The earth, people...everything...

Much of the people comes from Organized religions, not the seekers of peace and connecting with the "Source"....People who connect more spiritually instead of dogma, don't try to conqure in the name of religion.

Organized religions--notice the plural in religions. God has one way of life not many conflicting ways. Humanity created its own concepts of what God should be to them, not what God is. What happened in I Samuel 15:2-3 as I said before was the result of Israel rejecting God as their leader. God was giving them His religion. When they sought their own king, God allowed them, but God also said that they would have to fight for their own survival, because they did not want God to solve the conflicts with other nations for them. In a sense, I Samuel 15:2-3 was a curse on ancient Israel. They would have to see firsthand the horrors of war. They felt they did not need God, that they could handle being a nation on their own. The same applies to the nations of today. They make their own rules, make their own "gods" and claim they are fighting in the name of God, but they are not.

What about those who reject God altogether? They choose not to believe in God (not the true God but the God known by the world). Why? Because of religious confusion. They hear one thing about God from one religion, and another conflicting thing about God from another religion. They see nations claim to be fighting for God when they are not. They experience personal pain and ask "why", but are given a misconception of God by a person of religious authority.

Humanity hates God. We cannot understand God, so we devise our own perceptions of what God is. It is more comfortable that way, because His laws seem alien to us, they seem cold. They only seem cold because we do not understand God. We do not love God because we do not keep the Commandments. To wlh, I would have to say I Samuel 15:2-3, and all other Biblical records of ancient Israel, are examples of what NOT to do, not what is right to God.

Originally posted by KPrince
Organized religions--notice the plural in religions. God has one way of life not many conflicting ways. Humanity created its own concepts of what God should be to them, not what God is. What happened in I Samuel 15:2-3 as I said before was the result of Israel rejecting God as their leader. God was giving them His religion. When they sought their own king, God allowed them, but God also said that they would have to fight for their own survival, because they did not want God to solve the conflicts with other nations for them. In a sense, I Samuel 15:2-3 was a curse on ancient Israel. They would have to see firsthand the horrors of war. They felt they did not need God, that they could handle being a nation on their own. The same applies to the nations of today. They make their own rules, make their own "gods" and claim they are fighting in the name of God, but they are not.

What about those who reject God altogether? They choose not to believe in God (not the true God but the God known by the world). Why? Because of religious confusion. They hear one thing about God from one religion, and another conflicting thing about God from another religion. They see nations claim to be fighting for God when they are not. They experience personal pain and ask "why", but are given a misconception of God by a person of religious authority.

Humanity hates God. We cannot understand God, so we devise our own perceptions of what God is. It is more comfortable that way, because His laws seem alien to us, they seem cold. They only seem cold because we do not understand God. We do not love God because we do not keep the Commandments. To wlh, I would have to say I Samuel 15:2-3, and all other Biblical records of ancient Israel, are examples of what NOT to do, not what is right to God. You have to separate the OT Jewish stories from the NT half gnostic and Mithra influenced writings...Remember there are many writings that weren't included...Jesus was from everything ever written from him was an Essene, which is a part of a gnostic sect, and Paul being influenced by Mithra had a big influence on writings at that time, I believe he was also part of some gnostic sect also, but was taken out of context by the church, and pasted together...No one seems to want to delve into other texts which James the brother of Jesus wrote, but he certainly was Essene, as was Jesus' mother and grandmother, John the baptist among others..

Yes, I do believe there is one god, or force...only one, and that one transcends any book......

Soon as person starts putting human traits on god, or what I would refer to god like pettiness, jealousy, anger...you no longer have a transcendent god.....you have a god made in mans image...

Originally posted by debbiejo
You have to separate the OT Jewish stories from the NT

You cannot separate them, what happened in the OT to the Israelites leads into the reason why they rejected Jesus in the NT, and also why they hunted down and killed most of the apostles.

Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the world...and Much of his teachings were twisted along with Pauls to make it seem to fit, though anyone can do that with a book.......Much of the were written after they happened...And the prophecies that are mentioned in Daniel and are thought of for today are not so, and Matt. was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD...

Originally posted by debbiejo
You have to separate the OT Jewish stories from the NT half gnostic and Mithra influenced writings...Remember there are many writings that weren't included...Jesus was from everything ever written from him was an Essene, which is a part of a gnostic sect, and Paul being influenced by Mithra had a big influence on writings at that time, I believe he was also part of some gnostic sect also, but was taken out of context by the church, and pasted together...No one seems to want to delve into other texts which James the brother of Jesus wrote, but he certainly was Essene, as was Jesus' mother and grandmother, John the baptist among others..

Yes, I do believe there is one god, or force...only one, and that one transcends any book......

Soon as person starts putting human traits on god, or what I would refer to god like pettiness, jealousy, anger...you no longer have a transcendent god.....you have a god made in mans image...

debbiejo, now you are arguing from the point of the credibility of the Bible. You are now determining not what the Bible says, but if what it says is true. I can tell you that the Bible does not contradict itself, but if you do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, then you would not be able to see how everything is connected.

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" Isaiah 28:10

Jesus Himself said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:40

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" Luke 13:34



It is like a jigsaw puzzle: parts from the OT, and yes, parts from the NT, connect. The scriptures interpret themselves, the mistake is when we take a scripture or two and interpret it ourselves. There are scriptures that answer other scriptures or elaborate on them.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the world...and Much of his teachings were twisted along with Pauls to make it seem to fit, though anyone can do that with a book.......Much of the were written after they happened...And the prophecies that are mentioned in Daniel and are thought of for today are not so, and Matt. was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD...

Read my post above this one.

Originally posted by KPrince
debbiejo, now you are arguing from the point of the credibility of the Bible. You are now determining not what the Bible says, but if what it says is true. I can tell you that the Bible does not contradict itself, but if you do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, then you would not be able to see how everything is connected.

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" Isaiah 28:10

Jesus Himself said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:40

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" Luke 13:34



It is like a jigsaw puzzle: parts from the OT, and yes, parts from the NT, connect. The scriptures interpret themselves, the mistake is when we take a scripture or two and interpret it ourselves. There are scriptures that answer other scriptures or elaborate on them.

If I believe the world is flat, you can never convince me that it is round. Because to understand that the world is flat is unique to those who believe that the world is flat. If you think the world is round, then you can not understand that it is flat. because god has made you see it round.

That is the logic you are using and it is flawed.

Yeah, they were made to fit, and how about the 100 plus writings that weren't included?.....They can fit also, but be interpreted another way...

And yes there are contradictions...

Which one of these is true:

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.



There are many many contradictions....you've only been led to believe there are none........so, tell me which is correct on the above verses.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If I believe the world is flat, you can never convince me that it is round. Because to understand that the world is flat is unique to those who believe that the world is flat. If you think the world is round, then you can not understand that it is flat. because god has made you see it round.

That is the logic you are using and it is flawed.

Am I? I am merely stating that the Bible is true, debbiejo is stating that it is false. The poster of this thread referred to I Samuel 15:2-3 within the context of the Bible. He asked for the opinion. I gave my belief. When debbiejo said that the OT and NT do not connect, I gave evidence to say otherwise. She stated the connections to Mithra and other gods, connections provided by outside references to the Bible. She did not show where there was contradiction in the Bible, but she argued the validity of the Bible. I addressed her argument with that in mind.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah, they were made to fit, and how about the 100 plus writings that weren't included?.....They can fit also, but be interpreted another way...

And yes there are contradictions...

Which one of these is true:

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

You took John 5:31 by itself, read before and after: "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth." John 5:30-33

John 8:14, again read before and after it "The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.' John 8:14

Keep in mind John 5:30-33 which validates the witness of Jesus through John, it is after this that Jesus now addresses the Pharisees.

"I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me." John 8:18


When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar." John 19:14-15

"Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:45-46

"And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour" Luke 23:44

"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him" Mark 15:25
"And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Mark 15:33-34

This may be the possible mistranslation of John, but I will look into it debbiejo. It will take some time though. Three apostles speak about Christ being crucified before and up to the sixth hour, while John speaks about the sixth hour seemingly as taking place just before the crucifixion. Again, I will look into it.


MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

There is no contradiction here. The days (especially the Sabbath) were measured from sunset to sunset, not morning to night. All three scriptures say the same thing, and each elaborates on the other.

The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

There is no contradiction here either. Two by Two refers to the males and females of each species of animal. The seven is the seven pairs of male and female.

There are many many contradictions....you've only been led to believe there are none........so, tell me which is correct on the above verses.

As I said before, the scriptures interpret themselves. As for John 19:14-15, you may be right about this one--it may be a mistranslation due to the fact that the other three apostles said that the crucifixion took place before the sixth hour--or it may not be, I'll have to look into it.