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Would they win? How long would they last?

They last as long as they can hide their HQ from Revan.

Assuming this is a space battle, Im fairly sure Revan has it under cover, although Im not sure if he can fight well on land. If this is a battle till extinction my gut goes with Revans Empire.

OMG! Rebel Alliance hide behind death star and quickly go in to hyperspace every time the sith spot them.
And with launching a farmer they will overthrow the whole empire!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/icons/v2/icon5.gif

Overkill. Rebel Alliance is far weaker than the Sith Empire. Revan tactically crushes the alliance.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Overkill. Rebel Alliance is far weaker than the Sith Empire. Revan tactically crushes the alliance.

I realize Revan was a great leader and strategist, but how powerful was his Empire? The Rebel Alliance has better technology, but I'm sure there is someone with Battle Meditation on Revans Team. How many people were in the Sith Empire?

The Rebel Alliance has a great chance. Things like a Mon Cal crusier(MC80 or above) could easily defeat any ship in Revan's Empire. The Rebel Alliance also probably has more people because they have a greater number of planets. I think the Rebel's can take this do to more resources, better technology, and because of Ackbar(who I think is around Revan's level in tactical skill).

Glentract is right. The Mon Calamari cruisers are superior to any ship in Revan's arsenal. But Revan is one of the uber-lords of tactics. But then again, we have Admiral Ackbar for the Rebels.

Yeesh. I dunno.

Originally posted by overlord
OMG! Rebel Alliance hide behind death star and quickly go in to hyperspace every time the sith spot them.
And with launching a farmer they will overthrow the whole empire!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/icons/v2/icon5.gif sly

Sith Empire takes it. The rebel alliance had trouble with the Empire for crying out loud

Originally posted by DrDoom101
Sith Empire takes it. The rebel alliance had trouble with the Empire for crying out loud

With good reason. The Empire's military pwns all others, in Star Wars.

Don't know what kind of ships do Revan's Sith Empire have, but in Revan's time shield generators were so massive that only the biggest capital ships of his time could mount them. They're more likely to have a large number of supraconductor-armored ships to fight the MC80s.

I got the feeling that the numbers used in the old wars were so much larger than the ones used in the trilogys that Revan would win through pure numbers. Did the Rebel alliance or the Republic for that matter have anywhere near the massive size of Revan's fleets?

I would actually say that technology improves over those amount of years..
but with the OT coming first, perceptions are just screwed up.

I don't know though.. I'll just leave it at that.

Rebel Alliance as in...the rebels who had not yet formed a Republic, so hence the rebels who had not even (or maybe had just) destroyed the DSII?

Then I say Revan's Sith by far--space wise anyway.

The Rebels had several thousand ships. Revan has no advantage in numbers. A single Mon Cal(MC80 or above) could take two of the Leviathan, maybe six if it was one of the heavier ones(aka. MC80A and up).

The Rebels also have a huge advantage in the amount of able bodied soliders they have. Remember that the Alliance spans thousands of worlds.

The Rebels also have far greater starfighters. Revan's don't even have proton torpedos or shields, making them easy prey for Rebel ships.

Added with Ackbar's uber tactical skill(which is on the same level as Revan's) and the Alliance defeats him.

TJ, super-conducting armor is far weaker than shields. There is a reason they switched to shields over it.

Also remember that pre-Empire ships had lesser fire rates on their turbolasers. It was Imperial designers that came up with a high speed turbolaser with the same(or on larger ships) greater firepower to former turbolasers. The Rebels copied Imperial technology in their ships, giving the Rebels an advantage 3-1 over any of Revan's ship of equal size, even greater when you count things like the Leviathan being 1/6th the size of Home One(the Rebel flagship).

In result, Revan's Empire is pwned.

Glentract made an excellent point. I'm going with the alliance over Revan

WOW you guys dont Know what your talking abouns ships had a better fire rate then any alliance ship next off reven has an unlimitd amount of soilders he has battle droids

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
WOW you guys dont Know what your talking abouns ships had a better fire rate then any alliance ship next off reven has an unlimitd amount of soilders he has battle droids

Excuse me. I think you are the one with a lack of knowledge on this matter.

i dont think so

Prove up. You're a noob here and therefor need to prove what you say to get people to believe you. Prove up or shut up, no benefit of the doubt from me.

Have You ever even played KOTOR if you did you know Revan found the star forge witch can create an unlimited supply of capital ships and all kinds of ships and battle droids

Have you any sense at all? I've played KOTOR all the way through nine times, so I know it rather well.

The Star Forge can create ships, but so can any regular shipyard. The Star Forge just does it more quickly than other shipyards. The Alliance has more planets, giving them a greater number of shipyards.

Sorry, when I told you to prove up I forgot to add reason and use of logic in with it.

yes but ships take a long time to make and reven would just use hise massive fleet to bombared the planet and destroy the ship yards and the rebels

I usually try to be nice to noobs, but you're being stupid.

Think about what you just said, ships take a long time to build. That applies for the Star Forge too.

no it doesnt i think we need some other people to join this arguement and im right about him using his huge fleet to decimate rebel planets

No, you are not. You are retarded. Ship for ship the Rebels waste him and they have a greater number of ships with which to waste the Sith. You need solid proof.

Come on you cant be serious the rebel ships baraly have any turrets and for every rebel ship theirs 1000 of revans ships

You have failed to prove anything. Later.

if anyone else reads this you no he lost the arguement and he failed to supply enough evidence

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
if anyone else reads this you no he lost the arguement and he failed to supply enough evidence

He didn't, actually.

PT and OT technology utterly owns the technology of Revan's time. A single Rebel cruiser would destroy any single Revan cruiser. The Star Forge is a big factor, but it didn't shell out ships in a matter of seconds. It took a little while. Also, single shipyards don't take years, dude. If that were the case, I'm kinda wondering how Palpatine managed to mass produce the Imperial Starfleet in such a low amount of time.

Point being, the Rebels would only go down if Revan outsmarted him. But the Rebels have Admiral Ackbar. It's hard to top him.

You said that Leviathans were 1/6 the size of Home One? Leviathans would be (3,800 meters/6 = 630 meters). True, in Revan's time, even ships that large don't have shields and superconductor armor could resist the slow-fire-rate turbolasers of that day.

You know, the oldest fast-firing turbolasers date back from 32 years BBY. MC80s have those (48) and measure 1,200 meters, so assuming that one of these can destroy two Leviathans, seen the measurement above, is very conservative.

Meh...the Rebel Alliance would curbstomp the Sith Empire.

They have more troops, more advanced technology, more firepower, more ships, more resources and at least some commanders that are pretty near Revan in terms of tactical finesse (Ackbar for example).

With the fact that most of Revan's capital ships don't have shield generators the weaponery of a single Rebel starfighter might be enough to destroy a ship like that (Laser, Photon torpedos, several other missiles / bombs) and with the lack of shield generators Revan's ships won't have any protection against fire from ion-cannons, meaning that the Rebels can take them out quite easily.

The only advantage on Revan's side it that he has more force users - yet none of them was skilled enough to counter Bastilla's battle meditation and in a space fight force users won't be much of a help (even if Revan puts any force user available into a starfighter).

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
You said that Leviathans were 1/6 the size of Home One? Leviathans would be (3,800 meters/6 = 630 meters). True, in Revan's time, even ships that large don't have shields and superconductor armor could resist the slow-fire-rate turbolasers of that day.

You know, the oldest fast-firing turbolasers date back from 32 years BBY. MC80s have those (48) and measure 1,200 meters, so assuming that one of these can destroy two Leviathans, seen the measurement above, is very conservative.

What is your source for the first fast firing turbolasers?

Also note that starwars.com puts the length of the Leviathan at 600 meters, so 630 is definately not conservative. Ship length isn't the only thing that defines how powerful a ship is. Mass and power generation are what count.

The Leviathan has 4 turbolasers. Doesn't look good for it against the MC-80, especially since all of the MC-80's turbolasers are three times more powerful than the Leviathans. That's over 25 times more turbolaser power from each MC-80. Start adding things like Home One(old sources state 29 turbolasers, but this was later up-dated to 75 in some places and 92 in others) and a single ship can take on 30 or 40 of Revan's ships.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
Come on you cant be serious the rebel ships baraly have any turrets and for every rebel ship theirs 1000 of revans ships


WOW! I just lost SO much respect for you!

Okay, I guess the Alliance would win only because they have better technology.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
i dont think so

You don't think much at all, do you?


Okay guys, no one mentioned this so I'll put it out there. In a war it's not just all of Revans fleets versus all of the Rebels, if it was, Rebels would stomp the hell out of them do to superior technology and numbers. The thing you guys didn't account for was that Revan would steal Rebel technology (or get his minions to steal it, more likely) and be able to rally a lot of planets to his cause (yes I did steal that, but it seemed fitting). I am still not sure who wins this (although I am leaning twords the Rebels) and haven't seen good arguments for or against either sides of these points.

P.S. Technology for taking out droids during the Rebellion era is very advanced. Just thought I should shed some light on this issue, too.

I did account for Revan trying to steal Rebel technology and I don't think that it means much. If Napolean stole the designs and materials for a nuke, could he have built one? No. Neither could Revan. There were to many advances and advances that led to advances for Revan's Empire to figure before the Alliance would cruch them.

How is Revan going to rally thousands of planets to his side? He isn't going to get any of them by fear, since the Empire is hundreds of times worse than Revan's Empire. He isn't going to get many by force that will be usuable before the war is over(planets with shield technology can't be captured without become vunerable themselves for a long time unless cloaking technology is used).

their technoligy may be more advanced but revan is a way better stratigical thinker not ackbar and the rebels dont have any planets and even if they did the planet could just as easily be bombarded by a lot of ships to destroy any life on it

and the empire is no were near as bad as revans revans army is ruled by one of the most powerful sith ever the empires ruled by an sidious whos nowere near revans power

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
their technoligy may be more advanced but revan is a way better stratigical thinker not ackbar and the rebels dont have any planets and even if they did the planet could just as easily be bombarded by a lot of ships to destroy any life on it

Revan a "way better stratigical thinker" than... Ackbar? Are you joking? Revan's great, but certainly doesn't dwarf Ackbar, and not to mention the Rebels have way more generals.



So every ship has Revan on it?

Non sequitur. The empire has greater technology than the Sith ships of Revan's era, that's been proven. The Empire has more forces, more ships, better technology, more strategists, and far more firepower. QED.

you guys support you side very well you have good points ill have to find a little more evidence to convince you revans better and if were into a discosion of empire vs revan someone shoul start a thread

Go ahead and start the thread, but I can tell you off the bat that the Empire pwns Revan.

enough with the ship battles what about grund battles

revan would crush the rebels on the ground with his army of dark jedi and sith troopers and battledroids

Out in space, since Revan has superconductor-armored ships, those being much weaker than the shield generators of MC80s. and MC80s have 48 turbolasers and 20 ion cannons; one of these taking out 2 leviathans would be too easy. Maybe 10-20 would destroy one. Let's assume the Home One has 92 turbolasers and 36 ion cannons, the size of Revan's slaughter in space will be unfathomable.

Maybe, but unlikely. The Rebels have huge numerical superiority on the ground and have better technology(their guns shoot farther, ect). RSE certainly has a better chance against the Rebels on the ground, but I still think they lose.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
revan would crush the rebels on the ground with his army of dark jedi and sith troopers and battledroids Ground battles are actually very uncalled for in a world like SW as they aren't needed most of the time. Normally ground bases will get bombarded.

So it's safe to discard them when discussing war.

Originally posted by overlord
Ground battles are actually very uncalled for in a world like SW as they aren't needed most of the time. Normally ground bases will get bombarded.

So it's safe to discard them when discussing war. That is true...maybe bases holding vast numbers of Fighters would stand a chance...but they're not ground so...

Or the rebel base on Hoth which had that shield to protect them against the Star Destroyers.

yah if they had planitary sheilds thed be force to a ground battle and revan would win because hes got dark jedi sit troopers and battle droids that have good weopons

What are the mechanical weapons of RSE? The Rebel Alliance has few mechanical weapons to speak of.

what do you mean by mechanical weopons

ohhh i just remembered if youve played kotor remember on the star foge when you look into that giant space in the middle you see ships coming up every few seconds

No, you see a fleet that it spent several months(perhaps years) building going to go attack the Republic. They are not being built that fast.

only the starfighters are the capital ships take longer

That post makes no sense.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I did account for Revan trying to steal Rebel technology and I don't think that it means much. If Napolean stole the designs and materials for a nuke, could he have built one? No. Neither could Revan. There were to many advances and advances that led to advances for Revan's Empire to figure before the Alliance would cruch them.

Revan and his followers dont need to know about anything, they can either just kidnap scientists and mind trick them or they could just take in all the information about starship designs directly from the scientists minds.

He did this with the rakatan leaders, when he took in the knowledge of the Rakatan language and at the same time forced galactic basic into their minds.

Whoa, those sentences were ugly. Pardon my unruly typing skills, im just dead tired.

I don't think the Alliance would leave their scientists in the open for Revan to kidnap

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Go ahead and start the thread, but I can tell you off the bat that the Empire pwns Revan.

No, I think Revan would "pwn" the Empire, so long as he was introduced quietly into the galaxy. After Manipulating and/or Mind Tricking a crapload of the right people he could eventually take out palps. Or, he could just find out where palps lives and take it from there.

You are all forgetting: Revan has Malak, an army of Star Forge war droids, Great Sith War veterans, Mandalorian Wars veterans, hundreds of Leviathan ships (they are so badly armed because they have huge gravity well projectors), many former Republic war equipment, hundreds of thousands of Sith Starfighters, the Star Forge, and probably Sith war beasts and many other things that the Sith before Revan left behind or Revan happened to steal from the Republic.

In a space battle, the Sith Fighters would swarm the Rebel's starfleet and escort in boarding craft that would then unleash hell inside the Rebel's ships. In KOTOR, we saw how effective a Sith boarding can be. In ANH, we saw how hard it is for the Rebel Marines to defend their ships from 501st Stormtroopers, imagine veteran Sith Troopers and Dark Jedi. The Rebels would lose their positions in chaos and confusion and withdraw.

In a ground battle, if the Rebels have their tanks, turrets, and other vehicles, assassination of the Rebel Field Officers and a sudden push led by Malak might secure some sort of victory. In most tactical situations, the Rebel Alliance's SpecForces can't match up to the Sith, a lot of them whom fought Mandalorians in the war before and survived Dxun and/or Malachor V.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Rebels had several thousand ships. Revan has no advantage in numbers. A single Mon Cal(MC80 or above) could take two of the Leviathan, maybe six if it was one of the heavier ones(aka. MC80A and up).

The Rebels also have a huge advantage in the amount of able bodied soliders they have. Remember that the Alliance spans thousands of worlds.

The Rebels also have far greater starfighters. Revan's don't even have proton torpedos or shields, making them easy prey for Rebel ships.

Added with Ackbar's uber tactical skill(which is on the same level as Revan's) and the Alliance defeats him.

TJ, super-conducting armor is far weaker than shields. There is a reason they switched to shields over it.

Also remember that pre-Empire ships had lesser fire rates on their turbolasers. It was Imperial designers that came up with a high speed turbolaser with the same(or on larger ships) greater firepower to former turbolasers. The Rebels copied Imperial technology in their ships, giving the Rebels an advantage 3-1 over any of Revan's ship of equal size, even greater when you count things like the Leviathan being 1/6th the size of Home One(the Rebel flagship).

In result, Revan's Empire is pwned.

Originally posted by Shadow x 20
I don't think the Alliance would leave their scientists in the open for Revan to kidnap

REVAN could POSSIBLY manipulate them from afar, but thats just speculation. Or, he could just stowaway in one of their ships and take out the rebel leadership, by either killing them outright, manipulating the leader with the weakest mind and taking it from there.

There are just so many possiblities, its not even funny.

Revan is not stupid he wouldnt fight an OBVIOUSLY useless battle.

The Rebels dont know the location of the starforge, so that would give revan and his assassins,spies some time to seriously disrupt the rebel caste.

And Revan doesn't know the location of the Rebel's hidden base

Originally posted by Shadow x 20
And Revan doesn't know the location of the Rebel's hidden base

True, but the dark jedi assassin/spies, could eventually mindtrick their way to finding out the location of some rebel bases.

And Luke will pwn any of them. Plus Rebel spies could learn the location of the Star Forge like they did the plans of the first Death Star.

Go Bothan spies!!!

Good point, shadow. The Rebels do have an extremely capable intelligence network, of which Revan's Empire has shown none of.

Originally posted by Brotz
You are all forgetting: Revan has Malak, an army of Star Forge war droids, Great Sith War veterans, Mandalorian Wars veterans, hundreds of Leviathan ships (they are so badly armed because they have huge gravity well projectors), many former Republic war equipment, hundreds of thousands of Sith Starfighters, the Star Forge, and probably Sith war beasts and many other things that the Sith before Revan left behind or Revan happened to steal from the Republic.


The point is - all that won't help him. I will explain that with the points following:



The point is that Revan has no chance to get some boarding vehicles near the Republic ships. They will get pwned badly because the Rebels have by far the greater firepower. They would simply blow anything away that comes close to them (I doubt that something would get close to them). The Sith have simply no chance to work against an enemy that has not only the better technology and more firepower but is also outnumbering them.
And the have some nice pilots in their fleet (Rogue Squadron) and quite skilled people from the ranks of the Admirals (Ackbar) to those of the Commanders (Wedge Antilles).



And again: You forget to think about the advanced technology. The more important planets of the rebels have shield generators, anti-ship turbolaser batteries and ion-canons (effectively able to take out far more powerful ships than those Revan has - as seen on Hoth in ESB). They have fighter support for their bases and most likely fleets who guard them in orbit. What do you think that Revan can do against that ? In order to take one of the more important planet he first has to win a space battle which is almost impossible for him, get through the planetary defences (which is also nearly impossible) and then win a ground battle again facing advanced technology and firepower and being highly outnumbered. And he again would have skilled military commanders against him (Dodonna, Rieekan, Derlin)

And the Rebels have access to a capable intelligence network (Bothan spies) and have skilled mercenaries under their command (Kyle Katarn - who was able to take on entire Imperial Bases on his own even in times when he didn't use the force, Dash Rendar etc.) and others that are quite capable when it comes to covert operations (Luke, Han, Chewie, Lando).

It would be a b*tch to search through four pages, so I'll ask:

Are the Rebels, in this case, the ones BEFORE they declared themselves the New Republic, or are these the Rebels set like a decade or so after ROTJ?

The Rebels didn't exist a decade after ROTJ. They were the New Republic by then. I think this is the Rebel Alliance(pre-taking Coruscant) at their peak.

Ah, vell...

Since we don't know much about Revan's GROUND forces, I mean like tanks and artillery, not infantry, and since we do know that "maximum of right before caturing Coruscant Rebels," have very decent ground forces, I'd say the Rebels win. (ruling out the unfair advantage of orbital bombardment)

Space-wise, and judging by everyone's portrayel of the Rebels superior firepower, I'd say Rebels win.

Throw the SF in the fray and I'd say RSE would last a wee bit longer, but again...since the SF cannot create lifeforms to pilot their vessels, no matter how many they churn out, they would eventually be forced to surrender or die if the Rebels blockade the SF.

(sigh) Bring the "SF shield" into the mix, I'd still say you should not put it past the Rebels to be unable to remove it.

How the hell do the rebels outnumber Revan his Empire? Seriously his fleet is huge. and the entire rebel fleet went towards the Death Star, it didn't look that big to me.

anyways Revan would win, why? Because of the star forge, there is no way the rebels could take that thing. Once Revan realises he can't win in space he would get those people to go to him, to go to the Star Forge. Where they would all crash because of the shields of the Star Forge.

The Rebel Alliance can not destroy Revan his headquarters and will probably die trying to go there.

Originally posted by Fishy
How the hell do the rebels outnumber Revan his Empire? Seriously his fleet is huge. and the entire rebel fleet went towards the Death Star, it didn't look that big to me.

anyways Revan would win, why? Because of the star forge, there is no way the rebels could take that thing. Once Revan realises he can't win in space he would get those people to go to him, to go to the Star Forge. Where they would all crash because of the shields of the Star Forge.

The Rebel Alliance can not destroy Revan his headquarters and will probably die trying to go there.


Thats what I was thinking as well. And when they end up crashing on Rakata, the Natives weaken them then Revan sends a few Dark Jedi, to capture any scientist and high ranking soldiers.

Originally posted by Shadow x 20
And Luke will pwn any of them. Plus Rebel spies could learn the location of the Star Forge like they did the plans of the first Death Star.

Nah, I dont think the Luke in this senario would be able to beat Malak or a sufficient number of Dark Jedi MASTERS if he encountered them. Actually, Revan would want Luke captured alive, then he would put him into the Star Forge like those other Jedi, and drain him.

Ooo, good point about the Star Forge shields.

Originally posted by Fishy
How the hell do the rebels outnumber Revan his Empire? Seriously his fleet is huge. and the entire rebel fleet went towards the Death Star, it didn't look that big to me.

They didn't have all of their ships at Endor. The bulk of their fleet was, but it was still only around half as there are many ship models that they had at that time that were not present at the battle( Blockade Runners, for example).

Also note that this isn't ROTJ Rebels(at least I don't think it is). It is a little before when they take Coruscant, because that is when the Alliance is at it's peak. The Rebel Alliance grew extremely fast after the destruction of the second Death Star. They were easily ten times bigger by the time they took Coruscant, probably more than that.

Originally posted by Fishy
anyways Revan would win, why? Because of the star forge, there is no way the rebels could take that thing. Once Revan realises he can't win in space he would get those people to go to him, to go to the Star Forge. Where they would all crash because of the shields of the Star Forge.

Not many people would crash, nor would Revan get much technology from it.

The shield wouldn't be very hard to take out. They could just send in a commando team and knock out the shield.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Rebel Alliance can not destroy Revan his headquarters and will probably die trying to go there.

No. I hope you don't think that the Alliance is that dumb. A few commando teams would take the sheild out. After that point Revan is finished.

Few things wrong with that theory

1.) How the hell would the alliance know the shield generator is there?

2.) Even if they would somehow find out then they would still have to land on the planet near that area, possible perhaps but still they would probably be seen.

3.) They would need to somehow convince the Rakatan to do the ritual for them that allows them acces. Problem is no translation droid can understand the Rakatan and unless you have the force you can't learn it either. And guess what, those guys don't have the force. Except for Luke but what thats just one.

4.) Lets say they do learn the Rakatan ritual and they do get the Rakatan to preform it, then they would need the force to enter the temple. Pretty much destroying any team you build, with the exception of Luke and possibly Leia maybe Katarn if you want.

5.) Luke and Leia alone would never ever be able to fight their way through the dozens of Dark Jedi Masters and even some of Revan his most trusted followers and get to the top of the building.

6.) To open the door you would need an account of some sort on the computer in the basement the computer however refuses to give out that account to just anybody, Revan however was there before and the Computer recognizes that so he re-installed Revan his account.

So honestly its freaking impossible that anybody could go there and do all that shit. I also doubt that they could just blow the thing up, if you look at the Rakatan they probably have some good defense methods and they couldn't do it from space because there ships won't work.

And there is absolutely nothing to suggest that even a single rebel alliance ship would manage to keep on flying after they reach that shield.

Originally posted by Fishy
Few things wrong with that theory

1.) How the hell would the alliance know the shield generator is there?

2.) Even if they would somehow find out then they would still have to land on the planet near that area, possible perhaps but still they would probably be seen.

3.) They would need to somehow convince the Rakatan to do the ritual for them that allows them acces. Problem is no translation droid can understand the Rakatan and unless you have the force you can't learn it either. And guess what, those guys don't have the force. Except for Luke but what thats just one.

4.) Lets say they do learn the Rakatan ritual and they do get the Rakatan to preform it, then they would need the force to enter the temple. Pretty much destroying any team you build, with the exception of Luke and possibly Leia maybe Katarn if you want.

5.) Luke and Leia alone would never ever be able to fight their way through the dozens of Dark Jedi Masters and even some of Revan his most trusted followers and get to the top of the building.

6.) To open the door you would need an account of some sort on the computer in the basement the computer however refuses to give out that account to just anybody, Revan however was there before and the Computer recognizes that so he re-installed Revan his account.

So honestly its freaking impossible that anybody could go there and do all that shit. I also doubt that they could just blow the thing up, if you look at the Rakatan they probably have some good defense methods and they couldn't do it from space because there ships won't work.

And there is absolutely nothing to suggest that even a single rebel alliance ship would manage to keep on flying after they reach that shield. Mission, or was it the droid(?), picked up the shielding pretty easily.

Ebon Hawk managed a safe land, do you put it past Rebel ships and the Millenium Falcon?

You get what few Jedi Luke has trained, plus the Commandos, they can overwhelm the Rakata. Plus they make friends with the elder tribe who would be sympathetic to Rebels cause of destroying the SF.

Those Jedi can enter the temple, at around 9 A.B.Y, Luke had around a dozen. Plus himself. These Jedi, along with "Luke's Force heritage from his father" (blah, blah, blah) I'm sure would be sufficent enough to impress the computer. And unlike gamers, I doubt if this actually occurred, that the Jedi would go LOOKING IN EVERY CORNER of the temple for a fight, which I know you need not do to get to the basement and roof.

I'm honestly surprised noone has thought about the commandos outside the temple that may be able to offer some bombardment as a distraction. No one can prove that that temple is indestructable, and I'm sure the Rebels would have the artillery neccessary to destroy IT, and the shield controls.

Republic ships, which had taken a hell of a beating in the battle, were able to knock the SF out, WITH tech. that was 4000 years older than the Rebels.

1.) Yeah but when they were already crashing. The thing is when they find the Star forge they would launch a full scale attack or use special agents.

If they use a full scale attack their entire fleet will crash if they will use special agents then they probably won't have the force and they will probably die on the unknown planet, now wouldn't they? They know nothing about the Star Forge or the shield generator and I find it very unlikely that by some strange lucky coincidence they would send the Jedi to that planet without a large fleet to back them up. It would make them as lucky as they were against the Empire and nobody is that lucky twice.

2.) Yeah the hawk managed to land safely, the rebel ships might be able to land safely, but many other ships including mandelorian war ships who were far better then the hawk crashed merchant ships crashed. It depends on the skill of the pilot and probably the size of the ship. I don't think the alliance would have enough great pilots to land their entire fleet safely in one place..

3.) The commando's and the Jedi overwelm the commando's with Rancor war beats? Possible, I doubt it but possible even so overwelming the tribe of the one would hardly make them open the Temple, and going to the elders well nice and all but again what are the chances of there being Jedi that are able to learn the force?

4.) Its not a matter of impressing the computer as much as making it obey you. It wouldn't obey anybody but Revan and Malak... What chances does Luke have of persuading the computer, seeing as he's not Revan or Malak?

5.) Well if they are lucky enough to get there and slaughter all the rancors even the fully grown one's if they can slaughter the tribe of the one, get the elders to preform the ritual and then survive the counter attack from the Sith Fleet (which does have complete control of the air) then yes perhaps it is possible that the Rebel alliance would destroy the temple.

6.) Battle Meditation allowed a few of them to slip through the defense and bombard the SF without the Sith fleet stopping them. The fleet was lead by a Dodonna and the Sith fleet by Malak, Malak was a fool. Dodonna was not. Against Revan his military skills with battle mediation what chance would they have?

Seriously its so freaking unlikely that the Alliance would be so damn lucky that they could destroy the temple of ancients and the Star Forge. The chance of it happening is a million times smaller then the chances of it not happening.

1.) How would you know? They could send in the Falcon first to make sure the location is correct and not a trap.

1.) right so they send in the falcon, the falcon crashes loses its ability to communicate and all that shit.

Meaning that the crew of the falcon would somehow have to get the message of the shield out to the Jedi.

Of course its possible that the Jedi were send along, but like you said they are there to check for a trap. If its a trap the Jedi would be dead in seconds because the falcon alone could never ever hope to defeat the Sith fleet. Meaning dead Falcon crew and dead Jedi. they could have gone without Jedi in which they would have crashed they would have never gotten a message out and they would have most likely been slaughtered by the Rakatan.

In which case the republic would have learned absolutely nothing except for the fact that the Falcon would have went down and the Sith fleet would be allerted to them knowing the location of the Star Forge...

The Ebon Hawk had time to send a transmission before crashing and time to get the shields down before the fleet arrived.

Originally posted by Shadow x 20
The Ebon Hawk had time to send a transmission before crashing and time to get the shields down before the fleet arrived.

They send a transmittion before entering the shields and again after getting the codes for the shield so that they could fly again.

Erm. . . Sorry, Fishy. I have to agree with the others, too. The Rebel's ships are far more powerful than anything Revan has at his command. His Force-users, I doubt, aren't powerful enough to turn the tide in space. In space figher-to-fighter combat, Revan's going down. Now, on Ground battles, it might be a different story, but even then, the Rebel's technology puts Revan's to shame.

The Star Forge is uber. . . but it has weaknesses. Also, tactically, I don't think that Revan is leagues above Admiral Ackbar, if he is at all.

How does that matter, the rebel alliance could never take down Revan his most powerful stronghold. The Star Forge can keep on spitting out ships and the rebel alliance would become weaker and weaker while Revan just becomes stronger and stronger.

That and he has Sith working with him. Really the alliance might be more powerful and they might be able to beat Revan in a full out war, something that I heavily doubt. But whatever. But the rebel alliance could never ever, ever take the Star Forge down. Revan can't lose.

Originally posted by Fishy
How does that matter, the rebel alliance could never take down Revan his most powerful stronghold. The Star Forge can keep on spitting out ships and the rebel alliance would become weaker and weaker while Revan just becomes stronger and stronger.

That and he has Sith working with him. Really the alliance might be more powerful and they might be able to beat Revan in a full out war, something that I heavily doubt. But whatever. But the rebel alliance could never ever, ever take the Star Forge down. Revan can't lose.

Are you trying to convince yourself? Your last statements look very . . . questionable. Revan can lose.

Tactically, there is nothing that gives the indication that he is above Admiral Ackbar. So, for our purposes, we can assume that they are both equal. The Rebel Alliance has many more generals, and their pilots put Revan's to sheer shame. In space battles, the Rebel's outgun Revan by a lot. Revan can't beat them in power. In ground battles, it will be closer. But I still don't think his empire would be enough to instill a victory. Rebels were sometimes successful when they used guerilla tactics against the Empire, on ground battles. And, let's face it, the Empire could wipe its ass with Revan's army.

So, all in all, I'd say the Rebels win.

Are you just ignoring my posts or something?

Even if they would destroy all of Revan his empire outside of the Star Forge shield they still could not ever take the Star Forge. Every attack would make them weaker while at the same time Revan just becomes stronger and stronger inside the shield. His fleet growing until eventually they would just outnumber the Rebellion, launch those ships at the Rebell alliance with kamikaze techniques... Rebel alliance = dead.

Not unless they took down the Forge's shield. Then they can launch an invasion inside the Forge. Sorry, but some dozen odd Siths can't take down an army of that size. The Rebels will still win.

Read my previous posts... I have already adressed that issue.

Originally posted by Escape81
Are you trying to convince yourself? Your last statements look very . . . questionable. Revan can lose.

Tactically, there is nothing that gives the indication that he is above Admiral Ackbar. So, for our purposes, we can assume that they are both equal. The Rebel Alliance has many more generals, and their pilots put Revan's to sheer shame. In space battles, the Rebel's outgun Revan by a lot. Revan can't beat them in power. In ground battles, it will be closer. But I still don't think his empire would be enough to instill a victory. Rebels were sometimes successful when they used guerilla tactics against the Empire, on ground battles. And, let's face it, the Empire could wipe its ass with Revan's army.

So, all in all, I'd say the Rebels win.

First off IT wouldent matter if the rebel ships were stronger once they hit the sheild there capital ships will crash and a doubt they could land those huge things safely at the speed their going down and were does it say that the rebels have more generals in kotor it didnt show all the sith generals in revans army did it

and revans a way better tactical stratigist then ackbar

Notice how there are more than 26 keys on your keyboard? You are allowed to use those ones too.

Originally posted by Fishy
1.) Yeah but when they were already crashing. The thing is when they find the Star forge they would launch a full scale attack or use special agents.

They would use special agents, seeing as that has been their tactic most of the time in the past.

Originally posted by Fishy
If they use a full scale attack their entire fleet will crash if they will use special agents then they probably won't have the force and they will probably die on the unknown planet, now wouldn't they? They know nothing about the Star Forge or the shield generator and I find it very unlikely that by some strange lucky coincidence they would send the Jedi to that planet without a large fleet to back them up. It would make them as lucky as they were against the Empire and nobody is that lucky twice.

No, they wouldn't. Why would non-force users die on the planet? Page's Commando team would easily fight off any Mandalorian and Rakata scouts. If it's the Falcon, can you say anti-personal repeater blaster? Any landing team that the Alliance would chose to send would be well able to defend itself while on the planet.

Have you read any of the post-ROTJ books? They usually send in a special forces team without a fleet when attacking enemy installations.

Fishy, prove that is was all luck against the Empire and prove that the same level of luck would be needed to take down Revan's Empire. Then stop shouting BS like that.

Originally posted by Fishy
2.) Yeah the hawk managed to land safely, the rebel ships might be able to land safely, but many other ships including mandelorian war ships who were far better then the hawk crashed merchant ships crashed. It depends on the skill of the pilot and probably the size of the ship. I don't think the alliance would have enough great pilots to land their entire fleet safely in one place..

They don't need to land their entire fleet because they won't send them all at the same time. They need to get one or two ships shuttles, which should be relatively easy, and Rouge Squadron. It should be very easy for the Republic ships to make it. Also, seeing as how all ten people survived the crash in the Ebon Hawk and the Rebel ships have superior crash safety equipment, it is unreasonable to state that more than one or two, if any at all, of the commandos would die during the crash even out of a team of a hundred or so men.

Originally posted by Fishy
3.) The commando's and the Jedi overwelm the commando's with Rancor war beats? Possible, I doubt it but possible even so overwelming the tribe of the one would hardly make them open the Temple, and going to the elders well nice and all but again what are the chances of there being Jedi that are able to learn the force?

There are no Jedi at this point other than Luke(perhaps you could count Katarn). Luke didn't start his academy until 11 A.B.Y. and the New Republic was founded long before then.

They don't need the elders. They are commando's with high powered explosives. Bam, the Temple wall was just blasted in.

Originally posted by Fishy
4.) Its not a matter of impressing the computer as much as making it obey you. It wouldn't obey anybody but Revan and Malak... What chances does Luke have of persuading the computer, seeing as he's not Revan or Malak?

Again, unnecessary. These are commando's with high powered explosives. They could easily just put a few shots into the shield generator.

Originally posted by Fishy
5.) Well if they are lucky enough to get there and slaughter all the rancors even the fully grown one's if they can slaughter the tribe of the one, get the elders to preform the ritual and then survive the counter attack from the Sith Fleet (which does have complete control of the air) then yes perhaps it is possible that the Rebel alliance would destroy the temple.

They don't need to fight any of the tribe members except some of the scouts. Rancors can be killed by several hundred blaster bolts from blaster rifles. Please note that the Sith made no attempt to stop Revan from getting the Temple with air attacks. It is likely they didn't know. The Rebels will just fly in on the far side of the planet from the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Fishy
6.) Battle Meditation allowed a few of them to slip through the defense and bombard the SF without the Sith fleet stopping them. The fleet was lead by a Dodonna and the Sith fleet by Malak, Malak was a fool. Dodonna was not. Against Revan his military skills with battle mediation what chance would they have?

Ackbar is easily as good as Revan in military tactics. The Star Forge was also fighting against the weaker Republic ships which are about equal to the Sith ships, making them 20-30 times weaker than the Rebel ships. With the amount of power the Rebels have, they don't need any tactics other than just sit there and shoot it. It will be destroyed with ease.

Originally posted by Fishy
Seriously its so freaking unlikely that the Alliance would be so damn lucky that they could destroy the temple of ancients and the Star Forge. The chance of it happening is a million times smaller then the chances of it not happening.

Sounds to me like you are trying to convince yourself more than anyone else.

Yah but how do you know if destroying the computer would bring down the sheild. It was ment to stay on destroying it would keep it on forever.

Originally posted by Fishy
Are you just ignoring my posts or something?

Even if they would destroy all of Revan his empire outside of the Star Forge shield they still could not ever take the Star Forge. Every attack would make them weaker while at the same time Revan just becomes stronger and stronger inside the shield. His fleet growing until eventually they would just outnumber the Rebellion, launch those ships at the Rebell alliance with kamikaze techniques... Rebel alliance = dead.

Wrong. You are assuming that the Star Forge can produce more ships than the Rebel's ship yards. It is a very unlikely prospect, seeing that the Republic was able to fend them off for several years(even when Revan was leading them). The Republic back then had little in the way of shipyards back then and Revan started out on almost the same level as the Republic(out-numbered 2-1 in ships, but even in Jedi).

Also, the Rebels could easily just sit outside the system on the hyperspace routes with interdictor-ships outside of the shield(even though I have already shown that they could take it down), and keep Revan trapped in their until the Star Forge runs out of resources with which to build ships. At which point Revan is even more screwed.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
Yah but how do you know if destroying the computer would bring down the sheild. It was ment to stay on destroying it would keep it on forever.

Destroy the generator, not the computer. Please read more carefully next time.

If Revan could dont you think he wouldve destroyed it.

The whole point of the star forge is to create ships faster then shipyards and it can way faster. The rebels have no shipyards these are the rebels before endor the empire controlled the shiopyards

)For two post ago.)

That doesn't make any sense. What does Revan have to do with this> This is a hundred commando's with high powered explosivies.

And no, if Revan could have(which he probably could have), he wouldn't have. If darkside, he would have wanted to turn it off in a way so that he could turn it back on once he got the SF back from Malak, and if he was lightside he could have just wanted to save time(he was trying to shut it off before the Rebel Fleet got there).

Please, like I've said so many times in the past, use some reason and logic before making a post. I'm willing to bet you are more intelligent than you are acting.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
If Revan could dont you think he wouldve destroyed it.

Yes, if he could have.

In the spirit of the holidays have a present: some 's and a ?.

And theirs like a 100 dark jedi tn the temple how would the commandoes get through.And how do you know they survived the crash landing.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
The whole point of the star forge is to create ships faster then shipyards and it can way faster. The rebels have no shipyards these are the rebels before endor the empire controlled the shiopyards

No. The point of the SF was to build ships. Which it did faster than the Republic Fleet, but would not be faster than the Rebel Fleet.

No, I just might take back what I said in my last post, perhaps you really are stupid. Please look at some sources before making blind assumptions.

The Rebels have:

Mon Calamari Shipyards
Bilbrigi Shipyards
Sluis Van Shipyards
Eriadu Shipyars
Tallaan Shipyards
Purchased ships from Corellia
ect.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
And theirs like a 100 dark jedi tn the temple how would the commandoes get through.And how do you know they survived the crash landing.

Alright, I take it back, you're stupid.

Read my post,

"Also, seeing as how all ten people survived the crash in the Ebon Hawk and the Rebel ships have superior crash safety equipment, it is unreasonable to state that more than one or two, if any at all, of the commandos would die during the crash even out of a team of a hundred or so men."

Also note that there are not 100 Sith in the Temple. There are maybe 20. Several will be killed by the explosion when they are entering the Temple and the rest will be killed when other weapons(such as thermo-detonators, grenades) are tossed into rooms that the Sith are in. Also, no Sith can block 100 blaster bolts at the same time. Even Mace knew he couldn't take 14 men at the same time.

DO you even read what your writing. the SF makes ships a lot faster then the rebels. And the commandoes arent expecting a sheild that will force them to crash so they wouldnt have any safety equitment and when Revan finds out theirs rebels on the planet he'll just send way more than a 100 troopers

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
DO you even read what your writing. the SF makes ships a lot faster then the rebels.

Prove up or shut up.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
And the commandoes arent expecting a sheild that will force them to crash so they wouldnt have any safety equitment and when Revan finds out theirs rebels on the planet he'll just send way more than a 100 troopers

So the people on the Ebon Hawk expected to crash and just sat there and didn't try to do anything about it?

Also, Revan won't know about the commando's until after it's to late. The Rebels will just come into the system on the far-side of the planet from the SF.

Okay, so you are suggesting that a so called superior and more powerful rebel fleet is going to attack the last parts of the Sith Empire, their greatest stronghold thats going to be filled with a lot of Dark Jedi with a few special units? What kind of stupid thing would that be, they would of course assume the special units would reach the Star Forge, but if they would, they could never ever, ever get towards the centre of the Star Forge and destroy it. Never. So that would just be a waste of lives and I think the rebel alliance is smart enough to realise it.

The chances of them sending in special units are very small, and if they would they would probably serve only as spies. Yeah sure they might have done so differently in the post ROTJ books, but this is a different time and it calls for different measures and tactics. Special forces are of no use when fighting Sith Lords.



Okay, so lets say Commando's are going to be send, which is not the case, then they would face Rakatan warriors, Mandelorians, Dark Jedi and Rancors. If the Falcon would land in the middle of the temple courtyard it would be destroyed by the Rancors who are present in the area. If it wouldn't land there then its guns would be of no use. If the ship would carry hundreds of commando's that could form a powerful defense then they would have been noticed by a lot of things and the Sith would have probably send some things to shoot htem down. A small ship might go unnoticed when you aren't really looking for it. But a ship that carries a lot of people is going to be noticed and Revan isn't stupid enough to just assume they have died in the crash.



Read Above.



Yeah sure the ewoks and whatever were planned... And if you read my first big post on the matter you would already know what kind of extreme luck the alliance would need.



Well something that big would probably be spotted, I don't see how roque squadron helps because they won't be able to fly anymore but whatever if you want them there then thats fine with me. They would however still crash. Perhaps all the ships could land in area's where its safe to land where they wouldn't be quickly destroyed by Rancors which I doubt, perhaps they could all land near each other so that they could offer support each other, but I doubt that as well. The chances of that happening are extremely small even with the greatest of pilots and ships. Besides that beach was really small.



The elders who wanted nothing more then to destroy the temple had amazing technology as you could see in their base. They didn't manage to blow up the walls. The Mandelorians had high powered explosions and they never opened the temple doors. Why not? Probably because it was impossible. And okay lets assume that just for a minute the temple walls can be blown then every single Sith in the temple would know they were coming. They would slaughter the commando's in no time.

The commando's however if they would somehow manage to slip by all those Dark Jedi and in some magical and unforseen way would manage to get to the computer at the top of the Star Forge would still not be able to get the codes for the shield, simply because they don't understand the Rakatan language and would never understand the computer. Also the shields are most likely powered from the Star Forge at least the elders or was it Bastila mentiones something like that, so blowing up the Temple of ancients wouldn't help them either.



Again if they don't get slaughtered by Dark Jedi then they wouldn't know what to do anyways and if they would blow things up it wouldn't serve any purpose except for making a nice explosion noise.



It is indeed likely that Malak who is an idiot didn't think that a cargo ship was any thread to him in a time when he ruled the galaxy.

It is likely however that Revan who is a military genius would think the same ship or even better drop ships guarded by roque squadron would be a threat in a time of a war that he is losing.

The situations are so entirely different, it can't even be compared. When turned into a corner Revan would make damn sure that even the smallest of strange things would be examined carefully.



A lot of assumptions with nothing to back it up, not like it matters however even if you are right.

Just play through KOTOR and youll know the SF makes ships faster. And i didnt read anything you wrote as proof the rebels make ships fast with only 10 or so shipyards and who said Revan didnt have any shipyards.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
DO you even read what your writing. the SF makes ships a lot faster then the rebels. And the commandoes arent expecting a sheild that will force them to crash so they wouldnt have any safety equitment and when Revan finds out theirs rebels on the planet he'll just send way more than a 100 troopers

Yes, I'm sure the SF's purpose is to make ships faster then the Rebels who won't be around for another 4,000 years.
What do you think safety equipment is? "Okay guys, this might get bumpy, strap a pillow to your forehead!" No. It is built into the ship.
When Revan finds out, it will be too late.

If your paying no attention to anybody elses post why are you even here the rebels cant win it almost impossible. And why would the rebels send in a squad of commandoes if they dont know what their snding them into.

And why would Revan have all his fleet on one side of the planet. Hed have them surronding it to make sure nothing gets through.

Fishys right your not backing anything up

Are you talking to me about not backing things up? Even though I was expecting it, I still think it is kind of funny.

In case you forgot the Rebels have extensive intelligence agencies including the Bothan spies.

Yes the Bothan spies, but how would they get information on Revans army they cant use stealth Revan has dark jedi everywere so they could sense them and its not like they can join revans army its a human army

Yes, I'm sure there were Dark Jedi in every corner of everywhere.

And the Galactic Empire was mostly humans also, with the exception of a few choice individuals like Thrawn.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yes, I'm sure there were Dark Jedi in every corner of everywhere.

And the Galactic Empire was mostly humans also, with the exception of a few choice individuals like Thrawn, but the Bothans got information from them.

Damn I quoted myself instead of editing. Heh. Well, that is my newly revised post. /\

i didnt mean their were dark jedi every were but their was at least 1 or 2 on every capital ship and a lot more on planets controlled by the sith

Originally posted by Fishy
Okay, so you are suggesting that a so called superior and more powerful rebel fleet is going to attack the last parts of the Sith Empire, their greatest stronghold thats going to be filled with a lot of Dark Jedi with a few special units? What kind of stupid thing would that be, they would of course assume the special units would reach the Star Forge, but if they would, they could never ever, ever get towards the centre of the Star Forge and destroy it. Never. So that would just be a waste of lives and I think the rebel alliance is smart enough to realise it.

Yes, that is what I am suggesting. How do you think they took down the Imperial stronghold? Special units. They know that they are doing.

Also, the Rebel Spies could very well discover that their is a shield.

Would you prefer if I played along with you and assume that the Rebels do send in a fleet(which they won't do). It doesn't help Revan much. They certainly aren't going to send in all of their fleet since a single Mon Calamari ship has more firepower than the entire Republic Fleet that was sent to destroy the SF had. They lose at most one ship.

Assuming in the unlikely event that the Rebel ship doesn't get word out to the Rebels, the Rebels are smart enough to figure out that there must be some sort of shield protecting it, since that is the only thing that could take out a ship faster than it would be able to send out a distress call.

Originally posted by Fishy
The chances of them sending in special units are very small, and if they would they would probably serve only as spies. Yeah sure they might have done so differently in the post ROTJ books, but this is a different time and it calls for different measures and tactics. Special forces are of no use when fighting Sith Lords.

And you said I wasn't backing up my statements? Lol. What a hypocrite.

Show me what makes these situations different.

Originally posted by Fishy
Okay, so lets say Commando's are going to be send, which is not the case, then they would face Rakatan warriors, Mandelorians, Dark Jedi and Rancors. If the Falcon would land in the middle of the temple courtyard it would be destroyed by the Rancors who are present in the area. If it wouldn't land there then its guns would be of no use. If the ship would carry hundreds of commando's that could form a powerful defense then they would have been noticed by a lot of things and the Sith would have probably send some things to shoot htem down. A small ship might go unnoticed when you aren't really looking for it. But a ship that carries a lot of people is going to be noticed and Revan isn't stupid enough to just assume they have died in the crash.

No, the commando's are smart enough to come in on the side of the planet facing away from the SF. There is no way for Revan to know they are coming, so the Sith who are not on the planet will do nothing to impede the commando's.

Rakata Warriors and Rancors are melee fighters with no armor. A single blaster shot could down a Rakata Warriors. They will be cut down with ease. Same with the Rancors. A hundred shots every second will burn through it's skin and kill it before it can even get close enough to the commando's to even attack them.

The Mandalorians are horribly out-numbered and has the disadvantage of lesser technology. Their blasters can't fire from as far as the commando's(23m for the Mandalorians and 34m for the commando's).

Also note that their are only 10 or 12 Mandalorians on the planet. Not looking good for them, as a hundred blasters will cut them to pieces.

The Dark Jedi are in the Temple. There are maybe 20 of them in there. The commando's have higher explosives, which when tossed into a room with a Dark Jedi, bam, that one is dead. Rinse and repeat.

Originally posted by Fishy
Read Above.

I suggest you do the same.

Originally posted by Fishy
Yeah sure the ewoks and whatever were planned... And if you read my first big post on the matter you would already know what kind of extreme luck the alliance would need.

You gave no support for how much luck the Rebels would need, since it doesn't come down to just luck.

Whoever said that the Ewoks was planned?

Originally posted by Fishy
Well something that big would probably be spotted, I don't see how roque squadron helps because they won't be able to fly anymore but whatever if you want them there then thats fine with me. They would however still crash. Perhaps all the ships could land in area's where its safe to land where they wouldn't be quickly destroyed by Rancors which I doubt, perhaps they could all land near each other so that they could offer support each other, but I doubt that as well. The chances of that happening are extremely small even with the greatest of pilots and ships. Besides that beach was really small.

They are on the far side of the planet. There is no way for them to be detected.

Check your info. Rouge Squadron is not only an elite-fighter pilot group, but also an elite commando team.

There was still plenty of room on the beach for some more ships. The Assault Shuttles are really small for how many people they carry, about the same size as the Ebon Hawk. Two could probably land in the same place, but lets say that they do have to land in seperate places. There is still fifty people per ship, enough to fight off the Rakata(which would easily be killed, as shown above), and to kill the Rancor and Mandalorians(also shown above). This could actually work to the Rebels advantage because they now have flanking positions.

Originally posted by Fishy
The elders who wanted nothing more then to destroy the temple had amazing technology as you could see in their base. They didn't manage to blow up the walls. The Mandelorians had high powered explosions and they never opened the temple doors. Why not? Probably because it was impossible. And okay lets assume that just for a minute the temple walls can be blown then every single Sith in the temple would know they were coming. They would slaughter the commando's in no time.

The Elders had an electric fence. Wow. They must be gods. If the Elders had anything better than base defenses(such as offensive weaponry) they would have killed the Mandalorians and warrior Rakata, then opened the temple and shut down the shield, hoping someone would manage to destroy the SF.

Prove that the Mandalorians have high powered explosives and the intent of destroying the temple. It is possible that the Mandalorians didn't even care about temple.

You are also assuming that the Sith will not be thrown off balance by an unexpected explosion. The Sith would also be hurt by the explosion. It's likely that three or four Sith would die in the blast(since they are near the walls. Also, Sith can't block 100 blaster bolts. Even Mace knew he couldn't block 14, are you telling me these guys are better than him?

Originally posted by Fishy
The commando's however if they would somehow manage to slip by all those Dark Jedi and in some magical and unforseen way would manage to get to the computer at the top of the Star Forge would still not be able to get the codes for the shield, simply because they don't understand the Rakatan language and would never understand the computer. Also the shields are most likely powered from the Star Forge at least the elders or was it Bastila mentiones something like that, so blowing up the Temple of ancients wouldn't help them either.

Wrong. The shield was said to be projected from the planet. Destroying the temple will destroy the shield.

Originally posted by Fishy
Again if they don't get slaughtered by Dark Jedi then they wouldn't know what to do anyways and if they would blow things up it wouldn't serve any purpose except for making a nice explosion noise.

See above, you are wrong.

Originally posted by Fishy
It is indeed likely that Malak who is an idiot didn't think that a cargo ship was any thread to him in a time when he ruled the galaxy.

What makes you think Malak is dumb? He had to be smart enough to become DLOS and keep his title. He was smart enough to wage a war against the Republic.

Also, it doesn't matter is Revan would see the Ebon Hawk if he was in Malak's shoes, we are talking about different ships. I've already explained how they would get through.

Originally posted by Fishy
It is likely however that Revan who is a military genius would think the same ship or even better drop ships guarded by roque squadron would be a threat in a time of a war that he is losing.

Revan can't see the ships.

Originally posted by Fishy
The situations are so entirely different, it can't even be compared. When turned into a corner Revan would make damn sure that even the smallest of strange things would be examined carefully.

Prove that. Revan isn't perfet, stop acting like it.

Originally posted by Fishy
A lot of assumptions with nothing to back it up, not like it matters however even if you are right.

You've made more assumptions than I have in this, so you're not one to be pointing fingers.

Originally posted by Fishy
How does that matter, the rebel alliance could never take down Revan his most powerful stronghold. The Star Forge can keep on spitting out ships and the rebel alliance would become weaker and weaker while Revan just becomes stronger and stronger.

That and he has Sith working with him. Really the alliance might be more powerful and they might be able to beat Revan in a full out war, something that I heavily doubt. But whatever. But the rebel alliance could never ever, ever take the Star Forge down. Revan can't lose. I'm sorry, but when I saw this one I had to respond.

Ship-to-ship, we all know Revan's f*cked. That being said, the Alliance could easily repel the Sith forces until they're trapped inside the boundaries of the shield.

Then what?

The Star Forge DOES NOT CREATE SENTIENT LIFE, sentient life that is utterly necessary for Revan to have even the smallest of hopes for counter-attacking.

People tend to forget that yes, The SF crreates endless ships, fighters, droids etc...

But it does not create the manpower needed to pilot them.

Eventually the Rebel blockade will force the Sith to surrender or die. One way or another, whether it takes a week or years, the Rebels WILL ultimately find a way to take down that shield. THEY will have the endless resources and manpower, not the other way around.

That has been said, but not that elegantly or thought out. Good point. Rebels win.

So they are going to think of a shield instead of something else? Like a special weapon a third Death Star or something like that? All they will know is that something unknown caused a ship to crash, thats nice and all but it will not really help them.



Sith Lords. Its very easy, a commando unit would never win from a Sith Lord. Ever. Especially not when the Sith Lords outnumber the Commando's. So seriously what chance do those guys have? None. Assuming the commando's could reach the Star Forge, even the alliance would know they couldn't last a few minutes.

Besides if the Star Forge had no shields they could never ever reach the Star Forge, because of the Sith fleet in front of it. They would destroy any incoming drop ship without problems.



How would they do this? Seeing as the Sith fleet is orbiting the planet and the Star Forge is above a star and basically has a great view over the entire area, and do you really think that Revan would not send scouts to every area of space he couldn't see in case of a very likely attack.



So these 100 commando's are going to shoot all Rancors and all Rakatan scouts at the same time. Do you have any idea how unlikely that sounds, I find it unlikely that they would manage to survive the constant attacks and the courtyard but sure whatever, no loses of live and they get through without any problems.



The Mandelorians are also brilliant warriors, they have heavy weapons and are invisible. So they would probably surround the commando's and then suddenly start firing from covered possitions when the alliance commando's are in the middle. What do you think they are? Idiots who are going to stand in the middle of alliance and then start firing? They also have thermal detonators. They used it in the game so... These thermal detonators could probably do a lot of damage against the surrounded and cornered rebel attack squad.

But lets again assume the Mandelorians are idiots, stupid and will attack head on from a great distance giving up their only advantages for a stupid reason. Yeah then the rebels might get out. In all fairness its far more likely that many of them will be dead by the time the last Mandelorian falls, if they win that is.



A 100 once managed to stop a million.



Do you think the Dark Jedi are as stupid as the Mandelorians? That they are just going to stand still in their room after a huge explosion just blew up the walls and the room next to them? They may have been stupid enough to do that in the game, but they aren't going to be stupid enough to do that in real life. And some of those people in the temple, probably all but thats an assumption on my part, were Sith Masters. High ranking Sith Lords. They would take care of the few troops that remain. Unless you are suggesting that its suddenly impossible for Sith to take out normal troops, that are probably very weakened already.



Nobody, and thats the point they couldn't have done it without the Ewoks. Thats why they won. Luck.



You do realise they don't have engines anymore right, to land is incredibly hard. To land untouched is even harder, and to all land close to each other on a small beach, well nobody is that good. If they land at different places they might have an advantage if they can all find the temple from those places. Because who knows what the other side is doing, they won't have a clear target on the planet. They crashed there, they didn't go there on purpose.

On the flying from the side nobody could see part, I already said above that Revan would most likely have scouts in places he couldn't see limited as they would be because the Star Forge is on top of a freaking star.



Go inside the Elder base next time look around they have more then just that, they have a serious lack in weapons. But they have very advanced technology and their only goal is to destroy the Star Forge. Don't you think they would have tried something to blow it up if it was possible, they do have the technology and the knowledge to create pwoerful weapons. So why wouldn't they have done it?

The Mandelorians had thermal detonators. And yes it is possible that they didn't care about the temple and didn't want to blow it up, unlikely because Mandelorians are survivors who would have no real reason to stay on that planet as it can give them nothing. But sure lets assume that they would just let the building go untouched. Maybe they did out of fear for the Sith or something, hard to say.

Have you seen how big the temple is, and where the first Sith was? If the explosion is big enough to touch them there, then the explosion would level a good part of the temple and pretty much destroy the entrance. If the explosions are anything but precise explosions it would only hurt the alliance because of the rubble.

So even if all of the Rebels would have survived, which would require well stupidy on all fronts but that of the rebel alliance they would have to run over a broken wall over rubble and then face Dark Jedi on the other end of it. They aren't going to get into the temple before the Dark Jedi reach the entrance either, because the explosion was freaking huge according to your description and they would have to be far away. Running over a half destroyed building towards the surviving Sith Lords... Not a good idea. They are dead.



Go play the game again.

I split the post because it became to long.

Well he sure wasn't the military genious Revan was, we know that much. And your explanation doesn't hold up.



Your commando's don't know how to fire a gun. Just as stupid a statement. When somebody is pushed into a corner forced to retreat into one place he would make sure that the last place he owns is protected in incredible ways, and that he at least knows everything that happens everywhere. And have you ever heard of Radar, they would probably spot the ships with that. But if not they would definitly do so with the scouts.



Okay, Malak was unopposed he had all the power in the world and the republic was falling, would he need to create a defense that was far greater then the defense he already had? Of course not.

Revan however is defeated and in a corner its his last stronghold, would he trust the defense that the SF has or would he add his own, probably the last. Every reasonable general would do that, and Revan is far above reasonable.
h a huge Sith fleet thats on high alert. Especially after they lose their shields



Okay lets make a list of whats going to happen according to you

- The rebel alliance that has no idea what the SF is or does is going to send a commando unit to destroy it, knowing full well that its most likely going to be filled with Sith Lords. And that a huge fleet is protecting it. Yet still for some reason they assume the commando's could get through.

- For some reason they send these commando's towards the Rakatan planet, which has absolutely no use for them

- all ships crash at the same time and lose the ability to communicate, yet still somehow they all manage to land on the same small beach unnoticed.

- After that they leave the ships destroy Rancors and Rakatan and then for some reason the incredibly stupid Mandelorians charge them head on from a great distance. Mandelorians who can not be seen and could lay the perfect ambush, they did create an ambush against Revan when he was there. I don't see why they wouldn't do the same this time. Stronger weapons are nice but 12 heavy repeaters blasting in your ranks.. well its going to hurt.

- For some reason the rebels survive all of that then reach the temple blow it up. The Sith Lords inside are going to be as stupid as the Mandelorians and just stay in their rooms waiting to be killed. They aren't going to be outnumbered anymore by this time either so they could easily take the rebels if they would use their heads and attack. But of course they are not, because for some reason the rebels are brilliant and can do everything and all their opponents are so stupid that you would be surprised if they can tie their shoes.

- After that the temple is blown up the commando's somehow survived and for some reason they destroy the SF shields even though the shields are powered from a different location.

- After that they proceed to the Star Forge, make their way through a huge Sith fleet thats on high alert. Especially after they lose their shields

- They go into the Star Forge and blow the thing up.

Even if the first things would be possible, which they are not then it still wouln't serve any purporse, yeah the temple of ancients would be destroyed. Big deal. Who cares.

Sorry for the tripple post but well its kinda necessary here.



an endless siege is possible, however it would be endless Revan would be defeated in a corner of the galaxy but he would still survive because well the planet below once feed billions of poeple i'm pretty sure that if the Sith are smart they can make it feed them. And they can create droids from the inside, droids that could be programmed to fly ships into other ships. Yeah Revan would not win the war if this happens but the rebel alliance would pay a very high cost for keeping him in there. A besieged Sith Lord with weapons to attack is not going to be something you like. The Sith Empire however would eventually fall because of civil wars and shit like that.

A siege does seem like the only thing they could do, but they will pay a very high price for their victory.

Originally posted by Fishy
Sorry for the tripple post but well its kinda necessary here.



an endless siege is possible, however it would be endless Revan would be defeated in a corner of the galaxy but he would still survive because well the planet below once feed billions of poeple i'm pretty sure that if the Sith are smart they can make it feed them. And they can create droids from the inside, droids that could be programmed to fly ships into other ships. Yeah Revan would not win the war if this happens but the rebel alliance would pay a very high cost for keeping him in there. A besieged Sith Lord with weapons to attack is not going to be something you like. The Sith Empire however would eventually fall because of civil wars and shit like that.

A siege does seem like the only thing they could do, but they will pay a very high price for their victory.

What would make their seige so costly?

Also, there has been no demonstration of droids being able to effectively able to pilot ships for thousands of years after that(even the New Republic about 35 B.B.Y. had difficulty doing it). I suggest you prove that they could use this approach.

BTW, I'm not ignoring you prior post, it's just going to take me a while to read through it and such.

A few posts ago someone said that 1 Mon Cal cruiser is more powerful than the entire republic fleet i dont think so. The cruisers might be much bigger but that doesnt mean more firepower. And the rebels dont have alot of cruisers, and it doesnt matter, if they attack the star forge the huge number of sith ships not to mention the defense turrets on the SF would destroy everything the rebels have, if they get past the shield witch they wont.

But how would the rebel commandoes get past the sith they surrond the planet theirs no way to get through and if they got through they wouldnt live long their would be legions of sith and battle droids looking for them.

Originally posted by Fishy
They may have been stupid enough to do that in the game, but they aren't going to be stupid enough to do that in real life.


Because in real life the Siths are so smart!!!

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
A few posts ago someone said that 1 Mon Cal cruiser is more powerful than the entire republic fleet i dont think so. The cruisers might be much bigger but that doesnt mean more firepower. And the rebels dont have alot of cruisers, and it doesnt matter, if they attack the star forge the huge number of sith ships not to mention the defense turrets on the SF would destroy everything the rebels have, if they get past the shield witch they wont.

No one said 1 Mon Cal cruiser is stronger then the entire Republic Fleet. 1 Mon Cal cruiser can take on like 4-6 Leviathans because it has shields and better weaponry.

Actually it can take on something like 20, as I previously showed.

fisto/katarnrul, I am just going to ignore you for now on. You make no sense and demonstrate the intelligence of a 3 year old.

Originally posted by Fishy
So they are going to think of a shield instead of something else? Like a special weapon a third Death Star or something like that? All they will know is that something unknown caused a ship to crash, thats nice and all but it will not really help them.

Yeah Fishy. They will. The 4,000 year old technology on the Ebon Hawk could locate the shield - why won't advance technology be able to do the same ? Once they enter the system they will see the shield and try to take it out.



Commandos on the Star Forge ? Why ? The Rebels will use their ground troops to destroy the shield meaning they could unleash an entire army to the Rakatan planet and there is nothing that will be able to stop them. Then they will simply blow the Star Forge away. They have no need to send Commando's in.



They don't need to get to the SF. They will take out the shield, move in, destroy anything that is present with superior firepower and destroy the SF itself.



Meeeh...the Rebels aren't stupid. They will send some scouts to the system first and then approach it according to the needs. If the entire Rebel fleet invades the system that is easily enough distraction for Revan not to care about the shield generator in the temple and even if he does that: He doesn't have any instruments to stop a Rebel army flying to the planet and take it out.



Oh great. 3 (!) people can deal with all things present on the planet but 100 commandos can't do the same ?



Would 10 Mandalorians be stupid enough to attack 100s of people coming at them without having any hope to survive. And covered positions ? I didn't see much "cover" there...



As I said: The Rebels could easily dispatch and entire army to the planet and they might don't even need to get inside the tempel if they can bomb it from the outside.



And you realize that most of the Rebels pilots have 3 years combat experience from the Civil War at least and some of them have experience as smugglers, mercenaries and so on ? And they would have a clear target on the planet seeing that they could spot the location of the shield generator.



Nice. Scouts. Let the Rebels come with a few starfighter squadrons and the scouts are gone...



Respect for their ancestors...



Have you seen the size of the explosion of the shield generator on Endor ? That were just a few explosives placed their. The Rebels have easily the weapons required to blow that entire island away if they need to do it.



They did send a single person (Kyle Katarn) to get rid of the entire Dark Trooper project. Why do you think they would sent their entire fleet to destroy a shield generator. This is similar to the stuff they did in ROTJ.



As I said: They would be able to see the shield...



They have the location of the shield generator and will try to get near it's position and they don't have to land "unnoticed" since there is nothing that would be able to stop them.



It doesn't matter how they get attacked or by whom. Revan with 2 friends did kill anything on the island. Hundrets or thousand of Rebels invading it would simply do the same. Or is Revan > 100s of soldiers nowadays ?



Again. All those people were killed by 3 force users. You can argue that back and forth...there is nothing on that planet to stop the invasion of a Republic commando / army.



Temple gone. Shields gone. It's really that easy.



The Sith fleet is nowhere near the Rebels fleet and they simply would destroy it and they would do the same thing with the Star Forge. There is no need for them to get inside it and even if they chose to do that: 3 people were able to fight their way through it - 100s or 1000s of Rebels would be able to do the same.

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
A few posts ago someone said that 1 Mon Cal cruiser is more powerful than the entire republic fleet i dont think so. The cruisers might be much bigger but that doesnt mean more firepower. And the rebels dont have alot of cruisers, and it doesnt matter, if they attack the star forge the huge number of sith ships not to mention the defense turrets on the SF would destroy everything the rebels have, if they get past the shield witch they wont.

Sorry but ROFL !

Ackbars command ship alone has 20 times more weapons than Revan's Leviathan which is the most powerful ship in Revan's entire fleet. And the Rebels easily have hundrets of ships that all top the firepower of Revan's best ships (even a Nebulon B Frigate would be a threat for the Leviathan). Add thousands of starfighters.

And the Rebels have shielding technology which wasn't very common back in Revan's time.

That means: Once the SF shields are taken out (and the Rebels have the ability to do that) Revan is screwed.

You know, I was typing up a big answer for Fishy's post, but Nai got it first. Owell, I only answered half of it by the time I saw Nai's post. Here it is:

Originally posted by Fishy
So they are going to think of a shield instead of something else? Like a special weapon a third Death Star or something like that? All they will know is that something unknown caused a ship to crash, thats nice and all but it will not really help them.

They also have the planet blockaded. That with recon-ships with powerful sensors could easily detect the field.

Originally posted by Fishy
Sith Lords. Its very easy, a commando unit would never win from a Sith Lord. Ever. Especially not when the Sith Lords outnumber the Commando's. So seriously what chance do those guys have? None. Assuming the commando's could reach the Star Forge, even the alliance would know they couldn't last a few minutes.

The Sith don't outnumber them. I don't know where you got that crap. There were maybe 20 in the Temple. If necessary, the Rebels could send in another team or a larger team of several thousand troops(even a hundred troop ships would be easy to get down to the planet. The Empire was able to hide over a hundred Star Destroyers by putting them on the far side of a planet.)

We've seen how good the force users do when they are outnumbered. There really is no reason to think these guys are much, if any better than average PT Jedi as they have seen little war(about the same as PT) and have just been sitting in a Temple for years. They haven't fought anyone in a long time.

Originally posted by Fishy
Besides if the Star Forge had no shields they could never ever reach the Star Forge, because of the Sith fleet in front of it. They would destroy any incoming drop ship without problems.

Like I said before, it is probably that the Rebels would send in a few Mon Calamari Cruisers first. These ships have superior sensors over the Ebon Hawk and would take a lot longer to crash. Unless of course you think all of the ships would go down in less than the 30 seconds or so it takes them to usually detect the shield. Remember that the Ebon Hawk got a message off. The Rebel Fleet will easily do the same thing.

BTW, the Mon Calamari Cruisers that are crashing onto the planet could very well knock out the shield as they crash onto the planet because of their impact force.

Originally posted by Fishy
How would they do this? Seeing as the Sith fleet is orbiting the planet and the Star Forge is above a star and basically has a great view over the entire area, and do you really think that Revan would not send scouts to every area of space he couldn't see in case of a very likely attack.

Do you have any proof that Revan would send scouts? You need to realize that Revan isn't some perfect commander capable of perfectly viewing every situation. The fact that even with greater ship production, more experinced troops, and an a force almost equal with the Republic's he couldn't take them down for years shows he sucks compared to Ackbar. Against the Empire, the Rebels were outnumbered over 20 times worse than Revan was. The Empire had greater numbers of planets to draw new recruits from and plenty of darksiders(even one of the Grand Admirals was a Darksider.). Don't try to argue that the Republic only held out because of Bastila and her battle meditation because both Palpatine and that Grand Admiral I mentioned before(I don't remember his name at the moment) were masters at battle meditation. The only thing that the Rebels had in their favor was the galaxies greatest leader. That's the same advantage Revan's Empire had, yet the Rebel's got a much greater result. Perhaps this means something about who the better commander is....

If the Sith were orbiting the planet, how did the Ebon Hawk get through? The Sith cared about all the ships on Taris, why would they let a cargo ship fly through somewhere so close to their base. They wouldn't. The reason is that the Sith Fleet was engaged elsewhere. There was just a small compliment of ships at the SF, which were kept near it to protect it. There wasn't some huge fleet blockading the planet. The Duros(I don't know how exactly you would state some from there. The bluish, purplish guys with big heads, like the Bith) said that the Sith made occasional fly-bys, but they wouldn't have needed to do that if they had a fleet orbiting the planet, they could just look down.

Do you even understand how dumb it sounds when you say that they could see them because they were by the star. Just think about it logically for a moment. They are entering on the night side of the planet. Everything is blocked by the sensors, even the sensors. The SF can't see them.

Originally posted by Fishy
So these 100 commando's are going to shoot all Rancors and all Rakatan scouts at the same time. Do you have any idea how unlikely that sounds, I find it unlikely that they would manage to survive the constant attacks and the courtyard but sure whatever, no loses of live and they get through without any problems.

The Courtyard? What exactly are you refering to?

BTW, only on commando has to shoot a Rakata to kill it. They don't were any armor. THe Rakata are a non-factor.

The Rancor's aren't much better either. There were never more than two Rancors in any one attack. Thats 45 blasters per Rancor, allowing the other ten men to kill the Rakata. The Rancor is screwed.

Note, you seem to be assuming that the Rebels will only have blasters and light blaster rifles. They are also going to bring in heavier weapons such as T-21 Repeating blaster. These are better than the Mandalorian ones and can cut up armor with ease.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Mandelorians are also brilliant warriors, they have heavy weapons and are invisible. So they would probably surround the commando's and then suddenly start firing from covered possitions when the alliance commando's are in the middle. What do you think they are? Idiots who are going to stand in the middle of alliance and then start firing? They also have thermal detonators. They used it in the game so... These thermal detonators could probably do a lot of damage against the surrounded and cornered rebel attack squad.

Cornered? Lol! Please do tell how 10 Mandalorians are going to corner 100 Rebel Commando's. Or that all of the Rebels are going to be standing in a clump just waiting to be hit by thermal detonators. What do you think they are? Idiots who are going to stand in a big clump and let the Mandalorians surround them and toss grenades at them and then start firing?

Originally posted by Fishy
But lets again assume the Mandelorians are idiots, stupid and will attack head on from a great distance giving up their only advantages for a stupid reason. Yeah then the rebels might get out. In all fairness its far more likely that many of them will be dead by the time the last Mandelorian falls, if they win that is.

Even if the Mandalorians do move in close, they are out-numbered 10-1. No many of the Rebels will die. They have armor too.

Originally posted by Fishy
A 100 once managed to stop a million.

Irrelevent. There were no such things as grenades back them. No way to dislodge an opponent. There is in this senario.

Originally posted by Fishy
Do you think the Dark Jedi are as stupid as the Mandelorians? That they are just going to stand still in their room after a huge explosion just blew up the walls and the room next to them? They may have been stupid enough to do that in the game, but they aren't going to be stupid enough to do that in real life. And some of those people in the temple, probably all but thats an assumption on my part, were Sith Masters. High ranking Sith Lords. They would take care of the few troops that remain. Unless you are suggesting that its suddenly impossible for Sith to take out normal troops, that are probably very weakened already.

Yes. Real life. Maybe you should come back to it.

Prove that the Sith will be any smarter in "real life" than they were in the game. These guys have been sitting idle for years.

Just like Ki-Adi Mundi, perhaps. High-ranking Jedi Master who is arguably just as good as a Sith Master, yet five troops cut him down. Not good for the Sith.

Originally posted by Fishy
Nobody, and thats the point they couldn't have done it without the Ewoks. Thats why they won. Luck.

"It is my experince that there is no such thing as luck."

You really can't compare 15 commando's against an entire legion of Stormtroopers who have heavy equipment to 100 commando's vs. primitive people who fight with sticks, a few war beast, defeated warriors, and a few surprised Sith. Different Situations. Your statement doesn't apply.

Originally posted by Fishy
You do realise they don't have engines anymore right, to land is incredibly hard. To land untouched is even harder, and to all land close to each other on a small beach, well nobody is that good. If they land at different places they might have an advantage if they can all find the temple from those places. Because who knows what the other side is doing, they won't have a clear target on the planet. They crashed there, they didn't go there on purpose.

Because they weren't planning on going there. The Rebels are. They don't need their engines, there is something called "projected landing" that they can use to calculate to within a few meters where they will land and where they need to be when they lose engines to land at that location.

Originally posted by Fishy
On the flying from the side nobody could see part, I already said above that Revan would most likely have scouts in places he couldn't see limited as they would be because the Star Forge is on top of a freaking star.

YOu haven't proved that. Unless you can, it cannot be considered as relevent to this situation and is mute.

Originally posted by Fishy
Go inside the Elder base next time look around they have more then just that, they have a serious lack in weapons. But they have very advanced technology and their only goal is to destroy the Star Forge. Don't you think they would have tried something to blow it up if it was possible, they do have the technology and the knowledge to create pwoerful weapons. So why wouldn't they have done it?

They have technology that is WAY primitive. They couldn't defeat people who fight with STICKS. They are weak. They don't have long range weapons and explosives, meaning that the Sith would kill them. The Mandalorians can kill them with one shot to the chest. They don't stand a chance, they are screwed.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Mandelorians had thermal detonators. And yes it is possible that they didn't care about the temple and didn't want to blow it up, unlikely because Mandelorians are survivors who would have no real reason to stay on that planet as it can give them nothing. But sure lets assume that they would just let the building go untouched. Maybe they did out of fear for the Sith or something, hard to say.

Which wouldn't surprise me. The Sith outnumber them 2-1. The only way to kill a Jedi/Sith unless you are uber is to poison them hit them with a grenade or heavily outnumber them. The Mandalorians can do none of those at this point.

Originally posted by Fishy
Have you seen how big the temple is, and where the first Sith was? If the explosion is big enough to touch them there, then the explosion would level a good part of the temple and pretty much destroy the entrance. If the explosions are anything but precise explosions it would only hurt the alliance because of the rubble.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of blowing in one of the side walls. There is just a hallway seperating the wall and 6 or so Sith. That's 8 feet or so. And since the Temple is so huge, it will be easy to hit them and not cause much damage to the rest of the Temple.

Rubble will hurt the Sith more than the Rebels because the Rebels don't have to be by the Sith to hurt them. The Sith need to be.

Originally posted by Fishy
So even if all of the Rebels would have survived, which would require well stupidy on all fronts but that of the rebel alliance they would have to run over a broken wall over rubble and then face Dark Jedi on the other end of it. They aren't going to get into the temple before the Dark Jedi reach the entrance either, because the explosion was freaking huge according to your description and they would have to be far away. Running over a half destroyed building towards the surviving Sith Lords... Not a good idea. They are dead.

They don't have to cross the rubble to hurt the Sith, but the Sith have to cross it to hurt them. No, it's not a huge explosion, it has maybe a 12 foot radius.

Originally posted by Fishy
Go play the game again.

Wow. What an answer. All of the evidence supporting it is amazing.

Royally.

Are you just going to ignore the rest of my post, i'll answer this when you have answered that. To tired to do it now anyways.

Edit: Sorry Nai missed your post, well same goes for that post really i'll come back on it later. But you seem to think the rebels will do things differently then Glentract.

Now in your idea, you are forgetting the fact that the shield blocks readings. The Ebon Hawk didn't know shit until they got into the shields and by that time its to late to contact the rest of the fleet and tell them what you have seen because well your communication weapons don't work anymore.

Now a scout therefor would be of no use, commando's wouldn't know where to go unless they were in. And it stands to reason that the primary target would be the target they know off. The Star Forge. They won't know of anything but the Star Forge unless they are in the shields in which case they will most likely crash on the planet if they enter the sector from the right direction that is. Flying through half of the system to land on the planet, well with a fleet there it might be hard to do. Especially when you don't have any more fire power.

The point is, that they won't know of the shield and everyting they throw at the Star Forge would need to be extremely lucky to destroy the temple of ancients, because very few people have the skills to do something like that and its unlikely that the Jedi are going to be send there.

The idea that a commando unit is going to be send to the Star Forge is even crazier because they would by all logic be destroyed before they could ever reach the Star Forge and the alliance would know that.

The way I see it, they can not get a clear target and therefor never know whats going on. They could perhaps reach the planet but without being detected? Very unlikely. And without some heavy firepower from ships you are not going to destroy the Sith fleet bombing you. Its going to take an extreme amount of coincidences for them to find the thing know what its going to do and destroy it right away. Because lets face it, if you are the rebellion and you have Revan cornered there you have two real options.

1.) Try to destroy him and his troops with a few commando's like Glentract suggested.

This is however crazy to say the least, every commando drop ship would be destroyed by a far more powerful fleet, if there were no shields. Even if they could somehow magically reach the Star Forge they would still have to face god knows how many Sith Lords of power apprentices and Star Forge droids, which are capable destroying Jedi. The alliance won't know that, but they will know its the base of Revan his power, so they would know that the commando's even when supported by the few Jedi they have stand no chance.

2.) Send in the fleet and destroy the Star Forge, in which case the shields will start working.

Personally I believe that they would find ou they can't enter the system, they might do a few things try to get around it. But I don't think they will work, because well basically they have no information other then the fact that they are crashing. They might make a superweapon and blow the Star Forge up. Possible, I don'treally think its their style but possible or they would just simply lay siege on Revan his fleet and the Star Forge.

Basically destroying all of the Sith but their last stronghold trying to keep it in an iron grip. Guess this turned out as a longer post then I planned... anyways i'll get back to you on this later.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sorry but ROFL !

Ackbars command ship alone has 20 times more weapons than Revan's Leviathan which is the most powerful ship in Revan's entire fleet. And the Rebels easily have hundrets of ships that all top the firepower of Revan's best ships (even a Nebulon B Frigate would be a threat for the Leviathan). Add thousands of starfighters.

And the Rebels have shielding technology which wasn't very common back in Revan's time.

That means: Once the SF shields are taken out (and the Rebels have the ability to do that) Revan is screwed.


The leviathan is not the most powereful ship in revans army its just Saul Kareths flagship.And sheilding was very common in Revans time every ship had it almost

Glentract, you said the rebels could have a projected landing i dont see how thats possible with any rebel ships if you looked around on the planet youd see every ship landed wrong and was destroyed or irrepairible

Originally posted by fisto/katarnrul
The leviathan is not the most powereful ship in revans army its just Saul Kareths flagship.And sheilding was very common in Revans time every ship had it almost

Can you prove that? Can you prove the Leviathan wasn't Revan's strongest ship and can you prove the ships had shields.

Originally posted by Fishy
Are you just going to ignore the rest of my post, i'll answer this when you have answered that. To tired to do it now anyways.

I did answer it and post my reply, I don't know why it didn't show up. Give me a while to retype it.

You know, it wouldn't surprise me if the Rebels amde their own version of an Imperial Bullet with one of the Mon Cal cruisers. Basically, aim the ship at a stationary target(in this case the SF), put the ship on full speed and let it ram it. If the SF isn't outright destroyed by it, it will be damaged heavily. If, like you say, the shield is on the station, chances are it will go down, if not, rinse and repeat with another cruiser.

I fell like throwing in another two cents. Oooh, where to start?

Mon Cals ARE much much stronger than the Leviathon class, we all agree on that.

A Rebel blockade of the Rakatan system is entirely feasible.

Many thousands of Commandos, probably even with the help of the few Jedi, CAN, yes, CAN take out The One, and even if the Elders aren't willing to help the Rebels, they're no match.

And those same thousands of Commandos are a very effective bunch. How the hell, can like 20 Dark Jedi, take them out? Honestly, some people are making them into Gods.

The Rebels will have no hard time locating the Shield generator, we've all agreed on that right?

The Sith cannot "extract food from the planet" even when the Shield is UP. Chances are, yes, a few Rebel ships will be forced to land, but those Ships will be able to harass and maybe even (gasp) STOP the Sith from "extracting food." Revan is smart enough to know that wasting the lives of his men is not a good thing seeing as how he'll have few people left to man the ships the SF spews out.

Again there, eventually he'll have noone left to pilot his vessels.

Revan his f*cked, no matter how you look at this.

Originally posted by Fishy
Now in your idea, you are forgetting the fact that the shield blocks readings. The Ebon Hawk didn't know shit until they got into the shields and by that time its to late to contact the rest of the fleet and tell them what you have seen because well your communication weapons don't work anymore.

Fishy. You're working with three basical assumptions here that can't be proven. The first is that the shield would have the same effects on the technology the Rebels have that it had on the technology the Ebon Hawk had. Considering the fact that 4,000 years a quite some time to develop technology it's possible but can't be taken as granted.
Second assumption is that the Rebels would basically fly in a straight line and all hit the shield in the same moment which is quite unlogic as they will fly in formations (even scout ships) meaning that they would still most likely have the opportunity to get away or at least give some information to the Rebels main fleet.
Third assumption is that you have to get through the shield in order to get down on the planets surface. That can't be proven since the shield would very likely not go around the entire planet since it was designed to protect the Star Forge. Yet even if it's the case - relative save landing without engines working is possible as Glentract explained. If the Rebels want to get an army down there they can do it quite easily.



They will send Scouts to the system before invading it. That's basic military tactic. And as I explained above there is a very high possibility for scouts being able to deliver information to the rest of the Rebels. And even when they invade the system with everything they have they won't all fall because of the shield.



Meh...what ? In order to destroy the temple or take the shield out you need either brute force (with the Republic has) or diplomatic skills (again the Republic has enough of that).



I agree with that but since I see no use for sending a commando unit to the SF this is a very negligible point.



Fishy...we have seen starfighters being capable of destroying the Sith ships. Yet the Rebellion has much more advanced starfighters compared to the Republic 4,000 years ago. And if the Sith would bomb the surface they would do nothing else than destroying the temple on their own (and therefore their shield).



Yap. That idea is pretty useless.



Meh, Fishy. They can enter the system without getting affected by the shields as the Ebon Hawk has proven. They can even come quite close to the SF without the shields stopping them (also proven by the Ebon Hawk). And with weapons that have an effective range of 30,000+ kilometres they could just keep bombarding everything the Sith have from a far distance since they have a much superior firepower. It's possible that they don't even need to destroy the shields in order to get rid of the Star Forge itself.

Even if they have to they can simply hold the position and smite everything the Sith might be able to throw at them as long as they need to destroy the shield.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You know, it wouldn't surprise me if the Rebels amde their own version of an Imperial Bullet with one of the Mon Cal cruisers. Basically, aim the ship at a stationary target(in this case the SF), put the ship on full speed and let it ram it. If the SF isn't outright destroyed by it, it will be damaged heavily. If, like you say, the shield is on the station, chances are it will go down, if not, rinse and repeat with another cruiser.


yeah they could do that what good would it do the star forge is to big to be effected by that and why would the rebels use i mon cal cruiser when they dont have alot of them

starwars

Hey look everyone... I'm a mod!

"This thread is silly... don't make any more... closing.."

Okay that last post is useless...

anyways Nai



Well the first assumption seems logical, in the thousands of years the Rakatan Empire had been down nothing much has been changed, and they completely re-invented the ships and whatever because nothing remained of the Rakatan Empire. Its far more likely that a completely new design would be able to get through instead of an upgrade of a design. So really its not a strange assumption to make, and far more logical then thinking the shield would not affect the alliance.

Now it is possible that the Rakatan homeworld can be reached, but there is no evidence for that. The Ebon Hawk along with thousands if not millions of other ships crashed on the planet, and all of them stayed there. No information about the Star Forge ever got out. Wouldn't it be a logical assumption to make that you simply can not escape the shield? Not even on the Rakatan homeworld? I mean there is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. Besides it would be smarter if the Rakatan who really don't seem stupid would have put the planet in the protected area as well because the planet is very important to them.



True they have brute force, diplomatic skills however will be of no use, unless they are talking to Revan. In which case it wouldn't be a real destruction of his Empire but he would surrender. The Rakatan however wouldn't understand the republic and the republic wouldn't understand the Rakatan destroying diplomacy. And brute force, well large army's could never reach the planet and small strike teams, well Revan would probably spot them as well and destroy them.



Yeah I know their technology is far better, I don't think Revan could ever win this war, i'm just saying that he couldn't really lose.



Well, Earth the third planet from the sun, and the first where live is possible is about 150 million kilometers away from the sun. Thats 5x the range of the Republic ships. The Ebon Hawk after entering the shield still had the time to fly towards the Rakatan homeworld, which was also in the shield so the shield would logically be even bigger. Of course its possible that the Rakatan home world was closer to their sun but from looking at the planet, we can still safely say its a pretty big distance away. And probably far more then those 30.000+ kilometers.

Now it is possible that the Rakatan home world would be in range of the Republic fleet, but do you see the Republic bombing an unknown planet? I don't. No, they would just lock Revan up in his camp get to a safe distance and destroy every ship when it comes in range.

As for the idea of suicide ships, I don't know who brought it up not like it matters. The engines won't work, the shields won't work the weapons won't work and there is a huge fleet between the start of the shields and the Star Forge constantly growing larger, what chance does a ship really have of hitting the Star Forge?

Originally posted by Fishy
Well the first assumption seems logical, in the thousands of years the Rakatan Empire had been down nothing much has been changed, and they completely re-invented the ships and whatever because nothing remained of the Rakatan Empire. Its far more likely that a completely new design would be able to get through instead of an upgrade of a design. So really its not a strange assumption to make, and far more logical then thinking the shield would not affect the alliance.


Well...the Rakatan Empire did exist from 49,000 BBY to 28,000 BBY. The time it was established is probably the same time they invented the Hyperdrive means they had 21,000 years to develop capable space vessels before the construction of the SF and the events following destroyed their Empire.
The ships in KotoR are on a compareable level (21,000 years from the re-invention of the Hyperdrive) to the Rakatan ships. Yet the Rebels have another 4 millenia of technological development added so their technology could be more advanced than the Rakatan technology.

And I wasn't estimating that the Rebel ships won't get affected by the SF shields since we know that ships can still be stopped by shields (ROTJ) - but I think they would be able to spot the SF shields before entering them. The technology of planetary shielding or shielding in general (for ships) was not far developed in Revan's times - it is in the times of the Rebellion. Now...if they can spot an active shield guarding the Death Star before entering it (ROTJ) and the same can be reproduced by Imperials (they noticed the shield over Hoth in ESB), I don't see a reason why they won't be able to spot the SF shield or find it's source.



There are some points to suggest otherwise:
a) The ships crashed on the planet because when hitting the shields their systems were taken out and the planet was the nearest (or only) place to land on.
b) As I said: Scouting ships would fly in some formation meaning they will most likely not hit the shields all at once so even if one of them goes down there will be others left. Yet - even if that's not the case. What do you think would the Rebels do when their scout ships don't return ? They will go search for them. Now with the advanced scanners they have they will most likely spot them even if they are on the planets surface before they hit the shield and I don't see them making the same error again and again.
c) Why would the shield cover the Rakatan Homeworld ? They had no reason to do that. With all the power of the SF they had easily enough ships to protect that world. What would it help if ships that want to land on the world anyway would just be forced to do it without working engines ?



The Rebellion has at least one force user (Luke) and Leia who can "use" her force skills to a certain extend. And they have C-3PO who is programmed with 6 million communication forms. It's very unlikely that they won't find a way to communicate with the Rakatan.

For the brute force: As Glentract explained (do you just refuse to read it) a pointed landing without working systems can be easily done once you know you have to land without engines (and the Rebels will figure that out quickly) meaning they would be able to send an entire army down on the planet. And personally I don't see Revan stopping them. The only thing he could do (unless you want to assume that he will start attacking the planet from the orbit and risk to destroy the shield) is dispatching own ground troops. If he does this he will be heavily outnumbered and beaten in terms of firepower.
And judging distance. If a Rebel ship comes down near the beach they would be able to went to the temple in less than 5 minutes and blow it away in probably 10 minutes after they have landed. Not that much reaction time for Revan even if he's able to see them landing (and that would most likely not be the case if they come from the night side of the planet).



Now you are again assuming that the shield is something like a huge corridor which even is located beyond the SF (meaning it continues far into space from the side of the SF that is averted from the planet). 30,000+ kilometres would be a VERY huge (and almost unnecessary) shielding range.



In this case still Revan would have basically "lost" since he can't get out of his own system, can't get any support in, and will run out of resources / troops sooner or later.



Fishy. This is happening in SPACE. Once the ship has accelerated it won't need it's engines any longer since it won't get slower and that means they can send suicide ships to the SF or to the temple quite easily. Theoretically they could just "aim" on the SF and switch the Hyperdrive on - even a single starfighter wrecking through the station at x times speed of light will damage the thing heavily...not even talking about a capital ship impacting on the SF.

I'm still surprised this thread is this successful.

Yeah okay they could probably detect the shields, but it wouldn't do them any good would it? It wouldn't make them destroy the shields.



A) The engines weren't destroyed by the shield neither was anything else, if the planet was not in the shielded area then they could just start flying again when near the planet and leave the area untouched. This was obviously not the case, and therefor the only conclusion we can reach is that the planet was indeed within shield range.

B) No, I agree here. They would see what happens and stop or turn around but it would not help them very much.

C) Well the ships friendly to them could still fly there because of the shields. Also the ruler of the Star Forge was at times ruling an Empire in civil war, it would only be logical to protect his home planet, besides like I said in A) if the planet wasn't protected ships would have flown away because the shield doesn't destroy things just disables them.



Okay... First about the Jedi..

you are the rebellion you have to reach the Star Forge and the place the shield comes from, it could come from the unknown planet where you have no information from and it could come from the Star Forge. You are not sure, you do know that your ships can't get into the shield and continue working. So the logical thing to do would be sending in your Jedi the most powerful person in your army, hoping he would go to the right place. Strange decision if you ask me.

Lets say you are Revan, you are forced to retreat into one single system, everything you have depends on the Star Forge and the planet down below. Well it pretty much is everything you have, still you have an army and Sith Lords, what do you do? Centralize them all, trusting a technology thats not your own to work without any doubt and possibility of failure, when it has failed with you? ignoring the unknown planet or do you send your fleet everywhere within your shield to make sure nobody finds a way to get in and heavily reinforce the temple of ancients with Sith Lords to make sure nobody gets in.

Do you at the same time let the Rakatan live or do you destroy them to make sure they can never tell the secret of the temple to anybody else.

What seems more likely?

Revan his fleet would be all over the incoming Alliance ships and his fighters could enter the atmosphere and shoot at the rebel troops on the ground. They did so at the end of Kotor, well they didn't shoot but they did fly over so we know they can. The rebels would face very hard times if that happens and after that they would face a large and powerful portion of Revan his Sith Lords, while trying to blow up the temple because the Rakatan would most likely be death.

Revan didn't kill them before because they weren't a threat, and might be useful I don't think he would risk that again in this situation when he's losing the war instead of winning.



The rakatan homeworld seems to be inside the shield so its a pretty logical assumption to make if you ask me. Especially when you consider the fact that a planet rotates around the sun so make the shield a small corridor between two places would be a strange and stupid thing to do. And it would probably fail, making it a big round buble thingie would probably make it protect the area and the planets far more effective.



Yeah he would have lost, but he wouldn't run out of resources the unknown world could probably still feed his troops, or at least a reasonable section of them. But you would be right, he would pretty much have lost and as soon as he would die the alliance would have won for good (not before because none of his troops could challenge him and therefor couldn't challenge his orders).



Seriously a unshielded ship without engines going towards the star forge constantly being fired upon by a huge amount of guns and with its path blocked by ships about the same size? It doesn't have a chance of hitting the Star Forge...