Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

If Rachel hones her skills, who would win in this re-match?

Tough to say. Rachel definately has the potential to win, so with enough practise, she does.

Obviously with her skills honed Rachel would win, however right now in a telepathic battle Emma would win as shown recently.

Does anyone have any thoughts about how Rachels tk would fare against Emmas diamond form?

A bullet shattered Emma's diamond form right? Rachel could easily come up with something like that using her TK...

Originally posted by Lucid Lui
A bullet shattered Emma's diamond form right? Rachel could easily come up with something like that using her TK...

A diamond bullet shattered Emma form. However if people believe that Rachels tk could overcome Emmas diamond form then even currently Rachel could win.

Emma by most accounts and according to her bio cant use her tp in diamond form(Yeah there was that one occassion in astonishing but until thats supported by another title or another writer its not canon). So if Rachel attacked Emma with Tk she'd be forced to revert to diamond form and be forced to remain in it for protection. She wouldnt be able to use her TP so she'd be a sitting duck.

Any ideas on how Rachels TK would be effective in this situation. Whats the environment threadmaker?

Ahh yeah, i forgot the bullet was diamond.

What you're saying is true though. If Rachel can use her TK to force Emma into Diamond form the fight's pretty much over. Rachel can pound her with TK whilst attacking her mind with TP. And even without TP, i'd wager that Rachel would be able to knock Emma out using her TK.

Rachel only loses if she engages in strict TP warfare. Otherwise, she wins...

Rachels main form of attack has always primarily been telekinesis, we know she can manipulate genomes unconsciously and mess with molecules, so if Jean can reconstruct Emma on a molecular level it's safe to say Rachel can deconstruct her in the same manner. Thanks to Emma showing Rachel her telepathic skills are superior, Rachel will think twice before launching any purely telepathic attacks against Emma.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Rachels main form of attack has always primarily been telekinesis, we know she can manipulate genomes unconsciously and mess with molecules, so if Jean can reconstruct Emma on a molecular level it's safe to say Rachel can deconstruct her in the same manner. Thanks to Emma showing Rachel her telepathic skills are superior, Rachel will think twice before launching any purely telepathic attacks against Emma.

But at the time Jean was reverting to her Phoenix persona and tapping into the Crown. Has Rachels TK been shown to be able to work on a molecular level like that?

I think making a blackhole qualifies, and DNA is molecular and she can change her own so i'd say she certainly has it in her.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I think making a blackhole qualifies, and DNA is molecular and she can change her own so i'd say she certainly has it in her.

Youre right. Thinking back it does seem that she can manipulate matter at the necessary level to deal with Emmas diamond form. With that in mind id give this to Rachel.

Emma was shown using TP back in New X-Men. When she and Beast were stranded on that island, her TP let her know that Jean was on her way. Then there was the incident in Astonishing. I wonder why Morrison didn't let her use TP in diamond form at first. If other psis can use TP and TK at the same time...

Anyhow, Rachel's TK extends to the atomic level as well, just like Jean's. Jean was using uber TK during Revolution before she started manifesting Phoenix again .

Anyhow, I've always thought that Rachel would take Emma in a straight up no holds fight anyway. She doesn't need omega-level TK to take on Emma.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Emma was shown using TP back in New X-Men. When she and Beast were stranded on that island, her TP let her know that Jean was on her way. Then there was the incident in Astonishing. I wonder why Morrison didn't let her use TP in diamond form at first. If other psis can use TP and TK at the same time...

Anyhow, Rachel's TK extends to the atomic level as well, just like Jean's. Jean was using uber TK during Revolution before she started manifesting Phoenix again .

Anyhow, I've always thought that Rachel would take Emma in a straight up no holds fight anyway. She doesn't need omega-level TK to take on Emma.

Her bio says the diamond form supresses her TP. So maybe in that form she is restricted to low level TP.

Either way i agree Rachel would most likely win.

I know what her bio says. Of course, this isn't the first time that a bio has conflicted with in-continuity comics. She says that she doesn't get thirsty in her diamond form. At this point, who knows?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I know what her bio says. Of course, this isn't the first time that a bio has conflicted with in-continuity comics. She says that she doesn't get thirsty in her diamond form. At this point, who knows?

But from what we've seen in her comic book appearances by saying that her tp is merely supressed her bio is not conflicting with in-continuity comics is it?

Her bio says that she has not TP in diamond form. She's demonstrated TP in diamond form. I think that's conflicting.

i think Rachel wins this. even if telepaths could affect direct affection w/ teke (psi-bolts etc.) since its direct psi-energy, and not thrown items, Emma's tp would be too weak in diamond form to try to block Rachel affecting her molecules or atoms anyway

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Her bio says that she has not TP in diamond form. She's demonstrated TP in diamond form. I think that's conflicting.

I thought it said her TP was supressed not non-existent in which case your line of thinking would be incorrect. However i could be wrong so i'll check later.

Yeah i thought as much.

i thought that her diamond form gave her extra resistence to telepathy. If the
assumption that all quasi-oragnic beings mentally exist on the astral plane is true then her not being able to use telepathy is... well stupid. When she got her secondary mutation there were just too many powerful telepaths in the mansion, Xaiver, Grey, Quire and the 5 in 1, maybe they just wanted to cut down on all the telepathic speech bubbles.

Originally posted by LordKaos
i thought that her diamond form gave her extra resistence to telepathy. If the
assumption that all quasi-oragnic beings mentally exist on the astral plane is true then her not being able to use telepathy is... well stupid. When she got her secondary mutation there were just too many powerful telepaths in the mansion, Xaiver, Grey, Quire and the 5 in 1, maybe they just wanted to cut down on all the telepathic speech bubbles.

Nah her tp sensitivity is reduced. Shes a first order telepath, one of the strongest on the planet. If she could use such abilities as normal in her diamond form she'd be too powerful. I think it creates a nice balance.

Oh ok.
So you know the holempathic cyrstal Rachel has, it contains all Jeans feelings and memories, why can't Rachel (who can now psionically recreate the past through some new kind of psychometry, which is probably due to her chronoskimming abilities) just tap it and get all Jeans know how on telepathy thus making her far more skilled then Emma? and please no Emma is more skilled than Jean in telepathy because it's just not true.

Why isn't Rachel's tp up to scale with Emma's?

Originally posted by eternitygoddess
Why isn't Rachel's tp up to scale with Emma's?

Rachels more powerful shes just has less know how so as seen recently Emma would win in a tp battle. With time of course Rachel will surpass her. As we know with time Rachel will become a fully fledged Phoenix like her mother.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Oh ok.
So you know the holempathic cyrstal Rachel has, it contains all Jeans feelings and memories, why can't Rachel (who can now psionically recreate the past through some new kind of psychometry, which is probably due to her chronoskimming abilities) just tap it and get all Jeans know how on telepathy thus making her far more skilled then Emma? and please no Emma is more skilled than Jean in telepathy because it's just not true.

The holempathic crystal doesnt contain all of Jeans memories just the essence of who she is. When you hold it it makes you feel that shes with you in person.

As far as raw power Rachel is the sun and Emma is a fire sustained by a fart, but Emma is more skilled because she is older and telepathy being her primary power for so long, it stands to reason she didn't have her other two powers of telekinesis and time travel (which she does not have of course) needing attention.

which would make it easier for her to recreate Jeans memories.

Originally posted by LordKaos
which would make it easier for her to recreate Jeans memories.

What would?

Oh alright. Thanks for the explanation!

Originally posted by eternitygoddess
Oh alright. Thanks for the explanation!


Youre welcome.

the crystal holding Jeans essence should make it easier, remember it was through one of these crystals that Rachel was able to fianally claime the power of Phoenix. If she has the same kind of telepathy her mother does then she has total recall of any thought she has ever read.

Originally posted by LordKaos
the crystal holding Jeans essence should make it easier, remember it was through one of these crystals that Rachel was able to fianally claime the power of Phoenix. If she has the same kind of telepathy her mother does then she has total recall of any thought she has ever read.

Where have you ever seen a mutant telepath ever pull off such a feat or is this speculation of yours based on what you think her powers should be able to do?

No offence im just puzzled as to where this is coming from cos it seems so random to me lol.

Originally posted by eternitygoddess
Oh alright. Thanks for the explanation!

also with that, I think its cuz tp was her primary power for so long, and she didnt have to exert more concentration on her part as rachel does w/ tp and teke. even now, emma just has to change form, she doesnt really hav to concentrate to utilize its power. Rachel has to split her concentration. I think it sed somewhere that thats why Betsy is more powerful w/ her teke cuz thats her only power

are you talking about her ability to recreate the past pisonically, she has done it in Uncanny Xmen #464 when she and Princess Psylocke visited some old ruins she and Jamie used to play at, she also used it in the issue when she first found the crystal Jean infused her essence with, that's why she was able to conjure up images of the Dark Phoenix the night she visited the Grey household. She was even able to hear the thoughts that John Grey had about Dark Phoenix.

Originally posted by LordKaos
are you talking about her ability to recreate the past pisonically, she has done it in Uncanny Xmen #464 when she and Princess Psylocke visited some old ruins she and Jamie used to play at, she also used it in the issue when she first found the crystal Jean infused her essence with, that's why she was able to conjure up images of the Dark Phoenix the night she visited the Grey household. She was even able to hear the thoughts that John Grey had about Dark Phoenix.

In both circumstances you mention Rachel never recreated the past at all. With the recent lighthouse incident she says that theres a strong resonance in the stones and she shows Betsy the images the stones are resonating. So basically there was psionic residue in the area and Rachel showed Betsy what was there. Thats not recreating the past.

With the time at the Greys place Rachel was just fantasising about what she thought had happened during the DP Saga based on what she had read about it in the X-mens files:

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/5051/hrpage89yj.th.jpg

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/9801/hrpage98el.th.jpg

So with these scans in mind Rachel cant psionically recreate the past. If an event was emotionally charged enough to leave residue then she can project an image of said events but then most half decent tps can and have done that.

Also the holempathic crystal contains the core of Jeans personality. It doesnt contain all of her thoughts up until she died. Its just a device which captures the essence of someones personality so that people can feel comfort after a loved ones passing by using the device. Rachel could not suddenly gain all of Jeans TP training from said device.

PSYCHOMETRICALLY she was able to use the residual energy (which i think is just a side affect of her temporal powers), what telepaths other than the quasi-telepath Moonstar was able to do that (other than the elder Frost sister)? Nobody but Jean would know what John was thinking, it was not a fantasy because every image she saw actually happened. By the way i enjoy debating with you i don't know why everybody else gives you sh!t! Being a powerful telepath myself I simply use total recall to debate with others your mind.

Originally posted by LordKaos
PSYCHOMETRICALLY she was able to use the residual energy (which i think is just a side affect of her temporal powers), what telepaths other than the quasi-telepath Moonstar was able to do that (other than the elder Frost sister)? Nobody but Jean would know what John was thinking, it was not a fantasy because every image she saw actually happened. By the way i enjoy debating with you i don't know why everybody else gives you sh!t! Being a powerful telepath myself I simply use total recall to debate with others your mind.

If u look at the second scan and read the captions it basically tells you what i just said. That the previous DP Saga scenes were Rachels fantasies on what happened based upon her reading about what happened. It was just fantasy. Read the captions.

Youre one crazy boy!!

Oh yeah and eternitygoddess thank you for this thread, i would worship you but I am LORDKAOS!!

I don't need to read captions or even click your scan i have that issue, if it is a fantasy then explain why it actually happened! Those are Dark Phoenix memories, everything in those "fantasies" really happened. So you explain how Rachel was able to see them, oh wait I already did she can psionically recreate the past visually.

How can there be an Xmen file about things that Jean was not around to file?! She was dead and had been for quite some time when Rachel emerged.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I don't need to read captions or even click your scan i have that issue, if it is a fantasy then explain why it actually happened! Those are Dark Phoenix memories, everything in those "fantasies" really happened. So you explain how Rachel was able to see them, oh wait I already did she can psionically recreate the past visually.

But thats speculation on your part and its incorrect speculation at that especially when its actually stated on panel that the previous scene was Rachel fantasising based on the X-mens files detailing what actually happened. Thats the important bit you dont seem to be acknowledging. Thats why her fantasisies were so true to reality because they were based on files documenting exactly what happened. Thats actually stated. Theres really no debating this.

So why did she know her granfather was thinking the same thoughts he thought when his dauhgter was Dark Phoenix? I take it back about enjoying debating with you, you think you are the end all of all things Phoenix. You are really good at finding tid-bits about the force as long as it suites your myopic veiw of the marvel universe where Phoenix reigns supreme (me too ) EXPLAIN WHY RACHELS "FANTASIES" mirror true events? Oh wait (once again I did), if there were a scan or a comic reference to everything then you'd be up sh!ts creek about the many ways Phoenix (whom is my GOD) could be beat. But you know i still love you

Originally posted by LordKaos
So why did she know her granfather was thinking the same thoughts he thought when his dauhgter was Dark Phoenix? I take it back about enjoying debating with you, you think you are the end all of all things Phoenix. You are really good at finding tid-bits about the force as long as it suites your myopic veiw of the marvel universe where Phoenix reigns supreme (me too ) EXPLAIN WHY RACHELS "FANTASIES" mirror true events? Oh wait (once again I did), if there were a scan or a comic reference to everything then you'd be up sh!ts creek about the many ways Phoenix (whom is my GOD) could be beat. But you know i still love you

At the end of the day it states on panel that the DP scene was Rachels fantasy. It then gives a reason for why it was so true to reality(it was based on documentation detailing the events of the saga). Thats conclusive. Theres no arguing with that.

Youre making up a power based on the fact that the scene was so true to form. Thats speculation. Unsupported speculation at that.

The situation here is similar to in films where someone is sent a letter from a loved one who's away somewhere and as they read the letter the film shifts scene to re-enact that persons actions. Thats all that was a re-enaction. A fantasy based on X-men files. Thats actually stated. No further debating on the matter is required.

Yeah i love you to

aww...love rocks!

I think what LordKaos is getting at his how can they be fantasies gleamed from files when no one knows what happened at the Grey home. The X-Men didn't show up until later (remember Jean noticing the fog). Who entered that info in the files? It's a pretty damned accurate fantasy.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I think what LordKaos is getting at his how can they be fantasies gleamed from files when no one knows what happened at the Grey home. The X-Men didn't show up until later (remember Jean noticing the fog). Who entered that info in the files? It's a pretty damned accurate fantasy.

I know what he's getting at but that doesnt change the fact that that scene was stated to be fantasy based on what Rachel read from the X-mens files. Therefore theres no debating the issue to be honest. The X-men werent there but either Jean or the Greys themselves couldve talked with any one of the members and given their account on what took place. You cant make up a power for Rachel because her fantasies were so true to reality.

I didn't make up the power, she psionically recreated images of the past in uncanny 464, which does not seem to be outside her scope of power since she has time-travelling abilities of a psychic nature. You only got stuck on the Dark Phoenix stuff because you figured using it would prove something, when in actuallity i used the Uncanny 464 example to state my original point and then retroactively used the other to hint she may have always had the potential to do what she did in 464.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I didn't make up the power, she psionically recreated images of the past in uncanny 464, which does not seem to be outside her scope of power since she has time-travelling abilities of a psychic nature. You only got stuck on the Dark Phoenix stuff because you figured using it would prove something, when in actuallity i used the Uncanny 464 example to state my original point and then retroactively used the other to hint she may have always had the potential to do what she did in 464.

But youre trying to say that Rachel will somehow be able to recreate the past so she can tap into Jean Greys thoughts and get her training. Do you know how absurd that is? Thats a cosmic level feat and is beyond any mutant currently on earth except for Wanda.

The feat youre basing this speculated power on is something that any psychic could do. There was psychic residue in the area and Rachel showed Psylocke an image of what was resonating in the area. Thats not recreating the past in the way youre implying.

all you did is use different words to say exactly what i said she did, she recreated images of the past! it is not absurd for a person who has any kind of psychometric ability to conjure images of the past to learn things, that's the point of the power. what's absurd is that you think i meant she could physically recreate the past when i cleary used words like "image" and "psionically", what's also absurd is your assumption that only a being with cosmic power can tap a crystal which holds anothers essence and learn from it. I'm pretty sure a holempathic crystal holds a hell of a lot of psi residue for her to connect with Jean, who is alive and well in the white hot room. i'm done with this as your innate ability to post the same thing over and over by rearranging and replacing words that mean the same thing has beome tedious. don' quit your day job, because you'll never convince me of anything no matter how many scans you have. in a comic book world of endless possibilities it is entirely possible for somebody of Rachels pedigree to do just about anything.