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Super about time!

absolute disgrace...fat people pay taxes as well...they pay for their share of treatment....unlike junkies methadone treatment...

if the problems are due to financial restraints then why in 1 hospital in England are there 4 administrators for every patient?

the sooner the disgusting tax burden that is the NHS is done away with the better

Originally posted by jaden101
the sooner the disgusting tax burden that is the NHS is done away with the better
Yeah, because thats gonna happen.

I am a large guy as is Jade neither of us are fat, we both lift weights. I had a double arthroscopy due to a sports injury two years ago. I have to agree with him I pay taxes. If they are going to be prejudiced against me for lifting weights and being 18 (after Christmas ) feck em.

"Before we start telling people they cannot have a procedure because of how much they weigh, we've got to find more creative ways to improve the system and to finance more procedures," he said in a telephone interview from Kitchener.


Here is a creative solution.......make people lose weight Don't eat so much.

Originally posted by soleran30
"Before we start telling people they cannot have a procedure because of how much they weigh, we've got to find more creative ways to improve the system and to finance more procedures," he said in a telephone interview from Kitchener.


Here is a creative solution.......make people lose weight Don't eat so much.

or get the money for peoples operations by taxing companies that produce unhealthy foods simplyy cause its cheaper and keeps their profit margins up...infact tax them to the point that it becomes cheaper for them to produce healthier foods without the need for adding so much salt and fat to try and hide the fact that they use the cheapest and most flavourless ingredients possible

or on the flip side...stop selling off council owned sports facilities to property developers so people can actually get access to free (or at the very least dirt cheap) exercise areas

Originally posted by jaden101
or get the money for peoples operations by taxing companies that produce unhealthy foods simplyy cause its cheaper and keeps their profit margins up...infact tax them to the point that it becomes cheaper for them to produce healthier foods without the need for adding so much salt and fat to try and hide the fact that they use the cheapest and most flavourless ingredients possible


See now this I can ALMOST buy into except that at the end of the day no one makes you eat that. I drive by AT least 30 different fast food places in a day and I don't stop to eat at them or I get very selective.

Originally posted by soleran30
See now this I can ALMOST buy into except that at the end of the day no one makes you eat that. I drive by AT least 30 different fast food places in a day and I don't stop to eat at them or I get very selective.

its not neccessarily fast food...huge amounts of processed and supposedly healthy meals you can buy in supermarkets are riddled with fats and sugars

even when they say low fat then its usually substituted for salt or sugar anyway...

take ASDA "good for you" range lasagne...it has 60% of the recommended daily allowance for salt in it

http://www.food.gov.uk/news/newsarchive/2003/jun/saltreadyfindings

there is probably another reason for rising obesity that no-one mentions...and thats the fact that manual labour in the home has been virtually wiped out with advancing technologies...this means less exercise (albeit unconventional) and less calories being used up during a normal day

Originally posted by jaden101
its not neccessarily fast food...huge amounts of processed and supposedly healthy meals you can buy in supermarkets are riddled with fats and sugars

even when they say low fat then its usually substituted for salt or sugar anyway...

take ASDA "good for you" range lasagne...it has 60% of the recommended daily allowance for salt in it

http://www.food.gov.uk/news/newsarchive/2003/jun/saltreadyfindings

there is probably another reason for rising obesity that no-one mentions...and thats the fact that manual labour in the home has been virtually wiped out with advancing technologies...this means less exercise (albeit unconventional) and less calories being used up during a normal day

However once again sodium doesn't create obesity hell even fatty foods don't. Its all about portion control. I can eat slop all day and if I don't over consume I still don't gain weight.

Also if manual labor in the home is diminished then thats the fault of the home owner......... I empathize but my sypmathy is lacking simply due to choices people make and then make excuses after they dislike the obvious results of their bad choices.

Originally posted by soleran30
However once again sodium doesn't create obesity hell even fatty foods don't. Its all about portion control. I can eat slop all day and if I don't over consume I still don't gain weight.

Also if manual labor in the home is diminished then thats the fault of the home owner......... I empathize but my sypmathy is lacking simply due to choices people make and then make excuses after they dislike the obvious results of their bad choices.

please...find me a scrubbing board and a mangle in the shop and i'll gladly make my mother wash my clothes with it

Originally posted by soleran30
However once again sodium doesn't create obesity hell even fatty foods don't. Its all about portion control. I can eat slop all day and if I don't over consume I still don't gain weight.

Also if manual labor in the home is diminished then thats the fault of the home owner......... I empathize but my sypmathy is lacking simply due to choices people make and then make excuses after they dislike the obvious results of their bad choices.
Lies.
Anything can make you gain weight in excess.
The whole point of that post was that you don't actually know what the portions are, hence cannot control them.

Originally posted by eggmayo
Lies.
Anything can make you gain weight in excess.
The whole point of that post was that you don't actually know what the portions are, hence cannot control them.

indeed...information on a lot of foods is poor...it may give you a number of grams count...or calories per weight...but who, when feeding their kids breakfast cereal in the morning, has time to weight out the cereal and measure the milk to be added in order to control portion size

and if we go back to the food standards agency site...it list one meal as having over 98% of the daily allowance for salt in it...

Originally posted by jaden101
indeed...information on a lot of foods is poor...it may give you a number of grams count...or calories per weight...but who, when feeding their kids breakfast cereal in the morning, has time to weight out the cereal and measure the milk to be added in order to control portion size

and if we go back to the food standards agency site...it list one meal as having over 98% of the daily allowance for salt in it...
Shit, I should probably read that site.

yeah and knowing something very simple that fat is more then 2 times the calories of carbs and protein is easy. LOL no one needs to measure a serving size so accurately.......litttle calories here and there with an active life is ok............OVEREATING is significantly different then going a bit overboard on a bowl of cereal.

Originally posted by soleran30
yeah and knowing something very simple that fat is more then 2 times the calories of carbs and protein is easy. LOL no one needs to measure a serving size so accurately.......litttle calories here and there with an active life is ok............OVEREATING is significantly different then going a bit overboard on a bowl of cereal.

dont get me wrong?...i'm not trying to remove personal responsbility from people who are overweight...but its not merely a matter of eating

take the rise in overweight children for example...given that as a government policy...physical education classes have been cut to 1 hour per week...even when i was at school (which wasn't that long ago) we got 6 hours a week

topped with the fact that many schools are stopping extra-curricular sports due to teachers not wanting to be responsible for kids getting injured (and thus being sued for their time and effort)

the government seem to make policy of excluding people for more and more reasons...smoker?...not treatment...too old? not treatment...too fat?...no treatment...drinker?...no treatment

and the vast majority of these people have paid massive amounts of money for the NHS so they bloody well deserve to be treated

if you're not going to treat people...dont bloody tax them...

Originally posted by jaden101
dont get me wrong?...i'm not trying to remove personal responsbility from people who are overweight...but its not merely a matter of eating

take the rise in overweight children for example...given that as a government policy...physical education classes have been cut to 1 hour per week...even when i was at school (which wasn't that long ago) we got 6 hours a week

topped with the fact that many schools are stopping extra-curricular sports due to teachers not wanting to be responsible for kids getting injured (and thus being sued for their time and effort)

the government seem to make policy of excluding people for more and more reasons...smoker?...not treatment...too old? not treatment...too fat?...no treatment...drinker?...no treatment

and the vast majority of these people have paid massive amounts of money for the NHS so they bloody well deserve to be treated

if you're not going to treat people...dont bloody tax them...


I agree with most of what you are saying.........I get touchy about it (obviously) because I am passionate about fitness and proper eating. I get a bit tired of hearing people from where I live make excuses ALL the time about eating habbits and lack of exercise.

Originally posted by soleran30
I agree with most of what you are saying.........I get touchy about it (obviously) because I am passionate about fitness and proper eating. I get a bit tired of hearing people from where I live make excuses ALL the time about eating habbits and lack of exercise.

me too...i'm at the gym most days...boxing...rugby...you name it...i do it

i just think its a disgrace to exclude people from something they are paying for

if a person is too fat and you say its because they watch too much tv and dont get any exercise...you wouldn't let them go into shop...pay for a big plasma screen 50 incher and then tell them they're to fat and aren't getting to watch it...and then still keep their money

thats basically analogous to what the government are doing

The BMI piece is incorrect a great deal of the time and for many things allowances are made at least in the USA based on lean body mass as well.

While it is certainly true that - generally speaking - people do too little and eat too much, the processed food industry - especially fast food - also covertly "encourages" obesity because this fuels the multibillion dollar diet industry.

Generally speaking, a free-market economy can't flourish the way it does if most people are normal, healthy and psychologically happy with themselves. "Need states" diminish. It's very hard to Sell to this type of population.

Let's be clear here, it is Doctors, not the Government, making these suggestions; the Government is simply amenable to medical opinion because, simply, something has to be done about the money issue.

It is also highly incorrect to draw any correlation between your tax money going into the NHS and whatever treatement you receive. It doesn't work like that. National Insurance is paid as a form of collective social responsibility- you pay for the NHS even if you never use it in your life.

If you rule yourself out of treatment you can't use the fact you paid taxes as a reason to dispute that, We are lucky to have had a universal health service for some time but that is simply not viable- and this kind of solution, where keeping healthy will have to be a two-way process, will be what we see more of in the future.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Let's be clear here, it is Doctors, not the Government, making these suggestions; the Government is simply amenable to medical opinion because, simply, something has to be done about the money issue.

It is also highly incorrect to draw any ocrrelation between your tax money going into the NHS and whatever treatement you receive. It doesn't work like that. National Insurance is paid as a form of collective social responsibility- you pay for the NHS even if you never use it in your life.

If you rule yourself out of treatment you can't use the fact you paid taxes as a reason to dispute that, We are lucky to have had a universal health service for some time but that is simply not viable- and this kind of solution, where keeping healthy will have to be a two-way process, will be what we see more of in the future.

And this is why it needs to go

I can;t see that helping- lose the NHS and you just have a system where the poor get no treatment at all.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Let's be clear here, it is Doctors, not the Government, making these suggestions; the Government is simply amenable to medical opinion because, simply, something has to be done about the money issue.

It is also highly incorrect to draw any correlation between your tax money going into the NHS and whatever treatement you receive. It doesn't work like that. National Insurance is paid as a form of collective social responsibility- you pay for the NHS even if you never use it in your life.

If you rule yourself out of treatment you can't use the fact you paid taxes as a reason to dispute that, We are lucky to have had a universal health service for some time but that is simply not viable- and this kind of solution, where keeping healthy will have to be a two-way process, will be what we see more of in the future.

so you're saying that the NHS should be paid for by the unhealthy...in order to keep the healthy people healthy

given that counting overweight people, drinkers and smokers who are all to be excluded from treatment make up a majority of the population

you say something has to be done about the money issue

you only need to look at the jobs available in the NHS to see the waste and inefficiency

http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/cgi-bin/advsearch?rownum=1&sort_order=D&display_type=T&show_desc=Y&class_session_id=&jbe_exists=0&scc=NH&total_hits=2554&resonly=0

jobs such as associated director of planned care?...at a mere £75,000 a year

Originally posted by jaden101
so you're saying that the NHS should be paid for by the unhealthy...in order to keep the healthy people healthy

given that counting overweight people, drinkers and smokers who are all to be excluded from treatment make up a majority of the population

you say something has to be done about the money issue

you only need to look at the jobs available in the NHS to see the waste and inefficiency

http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/cgi-bin/advsearch?rownum=1&sort_order=D&display_type=T&show_desc=Y&class_session_id=&jbe_exists=0&scc=NH&total_hits=2554&resonly=0

jobs such as associated director of planned care?...at a mere £75,000 a year

They didn't pay me that much as an MLSO trust me

i read the title wrong...I thought it said NHL

The whole system is tough Adverse selection is always rough on systems that give health care to everyone............healthcare systems need to transition to prevention instead of containment.........when you have to contain its already to late.