-=- U.S. vs U.K Who Makes Better Bands?-=-

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Koala MeatPie
What with Pink Floyd And The Beatles, U.K. DEFENITLY spat out bwtter bands then the U.S. will ever be able to make.

Dr. Strangelove
Pink Floyd is just good, The Beatles are great but not the greatest ever, so you are wrong. And where the hell are Radiohead and Zep who are much better bands than the two you mentioned?

I'd say U.S.

Tptmanno1
US made Tool. (for sake of argument only, there are great bands from all over the place.)

Lana
Beatles are WAY overrated, I would like to say.

Koala MeatPie
Well this is an opiniated thread.

Personally, I prefer 60ies / 70ies / 80ies Bands and The ones out of the U.K appeal more to me.

But it all depends on the person, thus this thread.

Deano
Originally posted by Lana
Beatles are WAY overrated, I would like to say.

if you was in the 60's u woudnt say that

Lana
Originally posted by Deano
if you was in the 60's u woudnt say that

Yeah I probably would have; I don't like pop music.

Deano
u dont like them. doesnt mean they are over ratedbig grin

Dr. Strangelove
They are though. Especially with the whole "greatest band ever" that people love to label them with.

Afro Cheese
I've recently been digging the hell out of "the only true American artform." So I'm going with US as to where my favorite music is. I refuse to accept that either country "makes better bands" though.

And in spirit of further derailing the thread: calling The Beatles overrated to discredit them is sorta ineffective, seeing the unreasonable amount of hype they have to live up to.

Dr. Strangelove
Originally posted by Afro Cheese

And in spirit of further derailing the thread: calling The Beatles overrated to discredit them is sorta ineffective, seeing the unreasonable amount of hype they have to live up to.

I don't get what you're saying.

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove
I don't get what you're saying. Well.. The Beatles can't get mentioned in any thread without someone immediately crying "overrated." Yeah they're overrated, but look the legacy they're supposed to live up to. Hailed as by far the greatest band ever with no competition, and hailed as having the best songwriting duo in music... I personally don't know of a band that could fill the Beatles shoes. So basically what I'm saying is that at some point of hype the term overrated becomes so obvious that it's just irrelevant.

Dr. Strangelove
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Well.. The Beatles can't get mentioned in any thread without someone immediately crying "overrated." Yeah they're overrated, but look the legacy they're supposed to live up to. Hailed as by far the greatest band ever with no competition, and hailed as having the best songwriting duo in music... I personally don't know of a band that could fill the Beatles shoes. So basically what I'm saying is that at some point of hype the term overrated becomes so obvious that it's just irrelevant.

I see what you're saying. I've felt that way about Nirvana. It seems now that whenever Nirvana's mentioned the "overrated" tag is always thrown out. Which was true, considering some of the untrue accolades Nirvana has gotten but I've always thought: How can a band be overrated when everyone nowadays calls them overrated?

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Deano
if you was in the 60's u woudnt say that

We're not in the 60's though are we? My dad was and he said that all he thought of them was that they were just a really good band.

Take your argument home. The Beatles, while a very good band, are overrated. Simple as. On the flipside, just because you like them doesn't mean they AREN'T overrated.

US has the higher amount of greatest bands in number, but England have Radiohead, who could easily compete with any of those save for maybe a few.

I'll go with the US just for numbers.

-AC

Df02
60's and 70's belong to UK
80's doesnt really matter
90's and 00's probably slip into US territory

Alpha Centauri
The 80's get such a bad rep, there was awesome music in the 80's man. People slate it as the pop years, but if that's the case then why haven't the 90's and 00's been trashed?

-AC

Df02
there's nothin i can pluck from the tope of my head that really stands out from the 80's... maybe white zombie

Alpha Centauri
Doesn't mean there wasn't anything great just because you don't know of it.

-AC

Df02
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Doesn't mean there wasn't anything great just because you don't know of it.

-AC

greatness is an opinion... if i don't know of it i can't have an opinion of it, so it can't be great

Alpha Centauri
You mean you can't call it great.

Prince is still great whether you know of him or not, Van Halen, Rush...many other bands who were putting out albums in the 80's. Guns 'N' Roses, The Cure, The Smiths.

-AC

Afro Cheese
80's was a pretty good decade for hip hop as well. Specifically the late 80's. Public Enemy, Boogie Down Productions, Eric B and Rakim... lots of good stuff.

Df02
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You mean you can't call it great.

Prince is still great whether you know of him or not, Van Halen, Rush...many other bands who were putting out albums in the 80's. Guns 'N' Roses, The Cure, The Smiths.

-AC

surely 'you mean you can't call it great' is just the same as saying greatness is an opinion... which is what i said in the first line.


but anyway, i said i couldn't think of any off the top of my head, but from those you listed (of which i like Rush, The Smiths and The Cure...) i'll say UK edges it - which is another opinion if you must know

Alpha Centauri
Rush are Canadian, if you were implying they're British.

Or were you just saying that you like those bands separately?

-AC

Phat J
the guy from rush has one the most annoying voice ive ever heard. im still a big fan of tom sawyer though, its their only song i can stomach.

maybe its just me, i dont know.

Df02
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Rush are Canadian, if you were implying they're British.

Or were you just saying that you like those bands separately?

-AC

nah i meant i like em seperately.. but The Smiths and The Cure edged it for Britain for me

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Phat J
the guy from rush has one the most annoying voice ive ever heard. im still a big fan of tom sawyer though, its their only song i can stomach.

maybe its just me, i dont know. His voice is really nerdy sounding but I actually really like his vocals... maybe it's my inner-nerd. laughing out loud

Alpha Centauri
I think Geddy is an amazing singer. He has a really evocative style.

Plus he's one of the best bassists ever.

-AC

Victor Von Doom
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


US has the higher amount of greatest bands in number, but England have Radiohead, who could easily compete with any of those save for maybe a few.


Radiohead can compete with any band.

The US has more great bands. That's not really an opinion call, it's a fact.

Alpha Centauri
Patton should work with Radiohead.

-AC

Deathblow
Originally posted by Df02
there's nothin i can pluck from the tope of my head that really stands out from the 80's... maybe white zombie

One word: Pixies.

Lana
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Patton should work with Radiohead.

-AC

That would certainly be interesting, to say the least.

Victor Von Doom
The 80s had lots of excellent bands and artists, from both sides of the Atlantic.

Df02
Originally posted by Deathblow
One word: Pixies.

never liked em tbh

exanda kane
Ok to settle this add like the 10 greatest bands of the UK and Northern Ireland versus the top ten US bands. And don't say any of that nu-metal american crap!

I'm noot biased...honest...

Alpha Centauri
Most of that "nu-metal american crap" is miles better than Lostprophets and Fightstar, buddy.

-AC

exanda kane
What KORN LMAO!
Drowning Pool anyone?
Or maybe a little of the Limp Bizkit?

Were not 12 anymore..,

Come on! American Nu-Metal macho crap versus poncy Welsh men and ex-boy band members going 'scene'? What could possibly be better than that.

Alpha Centauri
Anything is actually better than Fightstar and if you consider them to be a musical collective worthy of a tag that says anything other than "F*cking shit" then that's all your opinion is worth.

-AC

exanda kane
Oh my you gremlin you. If you consider the musical creativity of Korn against Fightstar you would see that Fightstar are marginally better.

Alpha Centauri
They're not by any stretch of the imagination. You clearly know nothing.

Fightstar have no creativity at all.

-AC

exanda kane
Exactly. Which firmly places KORN in the negative.

All in all the UK does own at the music thingmejig. Its always moved music in new directions (with the exception of Metallica, i hate them, and others) whereas US music gets stagnent quickly, like every piece of US music is just part of a fad and nothing more.

Alpha Centauri
Well that being said, you have little to no musical intellect.

So what you say holds no credibility. That's a judgement call and I'm making it because you've gave overwhelming evidence.

-AC

exanda kane
Well if you stopped trying to gain prestige and actually tried to be concise in your language maybe you'd be able to actually make a point.

Alpha Centauri
I don't need to make any point against you, you're proving all my points by even posting here.

-AC

exanda kane
Yet again...nothing...

Please, please, please try and get back on topic like i tried to do. See you made me beg. That how much of an arse you are. Yes, i understand you don't like Fightstar, but the fact that your a pesamistic aged cretin living in past glories doesnt give you any excuse to flaunt your ragged opinions.

Alpha Centauri
I'm 20 you complete idiot.

If you weren't so depressingly stupid you'd be funny.

-AC

exanda kane
A 20 year old who acts like a middle-aged puritan...Are you a republican?

Oh and btw...No, still not getting the point of what your trying to say.

Df02
Originally posted by exanda kane
Oh my you gremlin you. If you consider the musical creativity of Korn against Fightstar you would see that Fightstar are marginally better.

KoRn created their own style of music, Fightstar just ****ed up an already stagnating style

knight
THE KINKS
...http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/hot_knight/jensen-kinks3.jpg


BIG COUNTRY
http://www.bigcountry.co.uk/media/00000046.jpg


'NOUGH SAID

exanda kane
Originally posted by Df02
KoRn created their own style of music, Fightstar just ****ed up an already stagnating style

Yes Korn did create there own music. it wasnt very good. At all.
Fightstar are an aquired 'taste', im using that word lightly because I my self a few months ago thought they were crap...but they were good live.

Df02
they werent when i went, infact i hit Charlie with a bottle when i saw them at Give it a name

Alpha Centauri
Fightstar, an acquired taste.

That's true actually. It's a taste acquired by idiots.

-AC

Df02
to add to my last post, he was lucky i'd taken a piss a minute before they came on, cos i sure as hell would've a minute after

i woulda been perfect to, cos the bottle hit the barrier at the front... spun up spraying the remenants of the cherry coke over him, then the bottle hit his shoulder

Alpha Centauri
I wouldn't waste Cherry Coke on him to be fair.

-AC

Df02
i hate cherry coke... it was all that was in the shop before the gig. and i because you werent allowed caps on the bottles i had to drink it there and then... and by half way through i wasnt really thirsty anymore.

golem370
CCR
Metallica
Slayer
Alabama
Tool
AIC
Pantera
Doors
Aerosmith
Lynard Skynard
Tom Petty & the heartbreakers
GNR

exanda kane
Originally posted by Df02
they werent when i went, infact i hit Charlie with a bottle when i saw them at Give it a name

Well they must have got better when i saw them lol. I managed to cover one of the "G's" from G-Unit at Reading a couple of years ago roll eyes (sarcastic) and my cousin threw a camp stall at ol' Fiddy, but that doesnt matter.

mmmmoley
the magic numbers are quite a good lil UK band! not all that well known at the mo, but im sure they'll grow!!

Pezmerga
My Favorite Two bands are Queen and Smashing Pumpkins. 1 from US and one from UK. I never really thought about it.

Actually I dont even really care where a band is from, I doubt anyone is gonna like a band just cuz they pay taxes to the same government as you do.

Alpha Centauri
Exactly.

I look at talent, not the passport. To quote a football manager.

-AC

exanda kane
Football sucks smile

Alpha Centauri
Feel free to grab and grasp the opportunity to shut the hell up at any point.

Good? Great.

-AC

exanda kane
laughing dw, I wont flaunt my views on how bad that game is, and the people who like it. too busy listening to fightstar y'see roll eyes (sarcastic)

Alpha Centauri
Reply with some kind of relevance or don't reply at all.

-AC

exanda kane
Oh yes sir! For you would be the ultimate connoisseur of relevant discussion wouldn't you.

Alpha Centauri
Unless you are replying to me on topic, please distance yourself from my posts. I have no wishes to interract with someone of your idiocy in anyway. I just about tolerate it when you're on topic.

With that said, we can drop it.

-AC

BobbyD
It's hard to make an argument against the Beatles, Stones, and The Who. But, having Jimi Hendrix, Ray Charles, James Brown, Zepellin, Elvis, and Bob Dylan certainly helps.

exanda kane
Zeppelin were British, lets not forget the Kinks, Sabbath, Maiden and the like.

Alpha Centauri
I'm just gonna pretend you're joking when you referred to Led Zeppelin as American, because if not, then I'm gonna be replying with my H and A keys.

Second, it's not hard to make an argument against those previous three bands.

-AC

exanda kane
I mean America's got alot to do with the creation of popular music (R'n'B etc.) so it hard to compare to James brown to Joy Division.

Alpha Centauri
America have produced more of the world's best bands than England ever has. England have produced bands capable of matching up though. Just not as many.

-AC

exanda kane
Let's not just say England though.

I feel I'm biased though because I think most of the music in the last 20 years thats come from America has been crap.

Alpha Centauri
Yeah but you think that because you're an ADMITTED anti-American racist.

There's a difference. Some of the best music ever has been produced in the past 20 years and most of it has come from America.

-AC

exanda kane
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah but you think that because you're an ADMITTED anti-American racist.

There's a difference. Some of the best music ever has been produced in the past 20 years and most of it has come from America.

-AC

True. Too true. But I just hate them so much.

And please give some examples, bearing in mind that I said 'most' have been crap.

Alpha Centauri
Examples are wasted on you. We've tried that before remember? You don't think anything is great unless it's widely recognised and known.

Which a lot of the best bands aren't. To the mainstream anyway.

Nor will I waste my time on a racist anymore.

-AC

exanda kane
Hey their Americans. It should be an international exception.

However please do give some examples, unless you dont actually have any...which i was guessing in the first place. And please stop using that Legendary analogy again, as you should have read, I genuinely don't have a specified definition for Legendary, it just happens, a band crosses a certain line, there Legendary. I'm guessing your response was another excuse otherwise.

Alpha Centauri
You can guess what you want. It's of no concern to me what a racist idiot thinks.

My opinions are respected enough on this forum to the level that I can just let one racist slip through the net.

-AC

exanda kane
You mean you don't have the dignity to agree with me because I have some perfectly good and personal reasons to dislike the americans.

Don't be so conservative...I know you cannot back up that you said "...the greatest acts in the last 20 years were american..." but you should at least have the nicety to reconsider your view.

Alpha Centauri
If that makes you sleep at night, then assume so.

You're a patriotic racist who happens to like shit bands. Your opinion is irrelevant and I've bestowed way too much credit upon you by replying this far. If you had kept it on topic without racial remarks, I would have just whooped fairly.

I've reported you for your continual, needless racial remarks also.

-AC

exanda kane
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If that makes you sleep at night, then assume so.

You're a patriotic racist who happens to like shit bands. Your opinion is irrelevant and I've bestowed way too much credit upon you by replying this far. If you had kept it on topic without racial remarks, I would have just whooped fairly.

I've reported you for your continual, needless racial remarks also.

-AC

Oh really? How conveinient...

And if admitting that I don't actually realise how pathetic you are, yet actually revere you as some primal deity (I'll give you the primal bit) makes you sleep well in your basement then good for you.

Please, as I've said no false accusations that i am a patriot, for you are far from the truth there kid. And I suppose i've been giving you a false sense of power for replying to babyish and arrogant remarks then have I?

p.s. if you reply to this my assumptions that you have no life will be confirmed.

Lana
Wanna quit the crap, or what?

Bierbommetje
Considering the UK has only 1/5th of the US' population, Id say its not really a fair comparison.

I think if the UK would have 5 times as many people (and therefore, 5 times as many bands) they could easily rival or surpass the US in the ammount of great bands department.

BobbyD
Oops, I did say Zepellin was American, didn't I?huh

Yikes, what a major faus paux. eek!

exanda kane
Indeed.

Sir Whirlysplat
Beatles
Stones
Who
Kinks
Cream
Led Z
Pink Floyd
Early Genesis with Gabriel
Deep Purple
Sex Pistols
Clash
Motorhead
Joy Divsion
Jam
Police
Smiths
Cure
The Levellers
The Wonderstuff
Stone Roses
Heppy Mondays
KLF
Radiohead
Cold Play

etc innovators all smile I could list a million others, stick that in your pipe and smoke it Yanks. smile

Alpha Centauri
Happy Mondays? Are you actually serious?

There are American bands that could easily claim to be better than most of those.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Happy Mondays? Are you actually serious?

There are American bands that could easily claim to be better than most of those.

-AC

I think you had to be there at the time AC, hearing about things is not the same as being there.I was a late-comer to the whole "Mad chester" phenomenon back in the day ("the day" being the late-'80s and early-'90s), and no more than a casual fan, to be truthful. But I understood fully that what was transpiring in the city of Manchester was something exceptional, one of those once-in-a-lifetime moments when everything magically congeals and greatness abounds.

Oppressed by daily life in a northern England industrial town, tens (hundreds?) of thousands of young Mancunians found escape in the pulse of Chicago house music, the chemical bliss of Ecstasy and the communal rush of dancing into the wee hours at Anthony Wilson's Hacienda Club. Out of this scene grew a slate of bands with a shared ideology, a distinctive look and a sound that -- for a while, anyway -- took the "alternative" world by storm: Stone Roses, Inspiral Carpets, Charlatans UK, New Fast Automatic Daffodils, James. (One could also supplement this list with dozens of other bands from around the UK that adopted the new style: Primal Scream, EMF, the Farm....)

No band epitomized Madchester more than Happy Mondays, and no album encapsulated the Madchester vibe like the Mondays' classic Pills 'N' Thrills and Bellyaches. It made you happy. It made you "baggy." It made you wanna dance, screw, get high or all three. It was as close to perfect as a record can be, and it captured a place and a time and an attitude as palpably as any album ever made.

Sadly, the Madchester phenomenon is largely forgotten by younger listeners. What once seemed like the dawn of a new era now seems merely a window in time. Manchester's downfall was hastened by its lifestyle of rampant excess, the subsequent drop in quality of its music, and the antithetic Seattle sound's rise to industry dominance. Taken from a couple of sources but.... It sums up a few years and the impact.

Alpha Centauri
All that proves is that you were, and still are, sweeped up in the "hype" of it all. Don't put it down as ignorance for being forgetten by younger listeners. It might just be the fact that they were a timed novelty? Think about it.

I like The Stone Roses and Primal Scream, I just don't think The Happy Mondays are anything good.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
All that proves is that you were, and still are, sweeped up in the "hype" of it all. Don't put it down as ignorance for being forgetten by younger listeners. It might just be the fact that they were a timed novelty? Think about it.

I like The Stone Roses and Primal Scream, I just don't think The Happy Mondays are anything good.

-AC

and you are entitled to your opinion.

At this point, I would like to call expert witness Shaun Ryder of the Happy Mondays, who sang "Son, I'm 30. I only went with your mother 'cause she's dirty

No other lyrics sum up lust better imo.

Alpha Centauri
No other lyrics sum up poor lyricism either.

Call an expert witness who isn't an idiot and I'll take notice.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No other lyrics sum up poor lyricism either.

Call an expert witness who isn't an idiot and I'll take notice.

-AC

Shauns like many idiots has a primary talent, he's is understated lyrics aimed at the working class of a generation.

Alpha Centauri
So? Aiming lyrics at a specific group and them understanding it, is a great talent to you?

That's like writing lyrics about throwing up and saying it's skillful because it appeals to bulimics.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So? Aiming lyrics at a specific group and them understanding it, is a great talent to you?

That's like writing lyrics about throwing up and saying it's skillful because it appeals to bulimics.

-AC

Not really fmost lyrics only appeal to the people who can relate to them.

For instance after explaining lust he shows how even though the character he's singing about is a very nasty self centred man, he still wants his son to love him and see him. He needs that, despite being petty and full of hate, no theatrics, just life on a Council Estate.

Son, I'm 30
I only went with your mother 'cause she's dirty
And I don't have a decent bone in me
What you get is just what you see yeah
I see it so I take it freely
And all the bad piss ugly things i feed me
I never help or give to the needy
Come on and see me

jaden101
a lot of shaun ryder and the rest of the hacienda days are forgotten because much of the ecstacy culture is dwindling and seems more reserved not for image conscious ******* club goers or pilled up hardcore knobs

the night life of most cities is summed up better and more relevant by other artists...mike skinner of the streets

"Out the club about three, to the take-away
The shit-in-a-tray merchants, shops got special perchant for the disorderly
Geezerz looking ordinary and a few looking leary
Chips fly round the sound of the latest chart entry
An incendiary waiting to blast
No harm with the contest who can throw the furthest
Behind the counter they look nervous, but
Carry on cutting the finest cuts of chicken from the big spinning stick
Then over flies a chip, flips, and hits you on the back
You spin round on the attack
'**** you playing at? he looks like a cheshire cat, almost falls down
Your frowns and superman eye lasers don't even register
By now you want to leather this ****
And forever your gonna regret that, your choice of path
So mash his head up and your girls now fed up
But stop to think and it's never gonna be the Jackie Chan scene it could have been to end up"

at least thats the way it seems to me

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Not really fmost lyrics only appeal to the people who can relate to them.

For instance after explaining lust he shows how even though the character he's singing about is a very nasty self centred man, he still wants his son to love him and see him. He needs that, despite being petty and full of hate, no theatrics, just life on a Council Estate.

Son, I'm 30
I only went with your mother 'cause she's dirty
And I don't have a decent bone in me
What you get is just what you see yeah
I see it so I take it freely
And all the bad piss ugly things i feed me
I never help or give to the needy
Come on and see me

You missed my point entirely.

I dislike that whole laddish trend anyway.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You missed my point entirely.

I dislike that whole laddish trend anyway.

-AC

Not really I answered your point as I understood it please clarify your point AC

Laddish confused

Originally posted by jaden101
a lot of shaun ryder and the rest of the hacienda days are forgotten because much of the ecstacy culture is dwindling and seems more reserved not for image conscious ******* club goers or pilled up hardcore knobs

the night life of most cities is summed up better and more relevant by other artists...mike skinner of the streets

"Out the club about three, to the take-away
The shit-in-a-tray merchants, shops got special perchant for the disorderly
Geezerz looking ordinary and a few looking leary
Chips fly round the sound of the latest chart entry
An incendiary waiting to blast
No harm with the contest who can throw the furthest
Behind the counter they look nervous, but
Carry on cutting the finest cuts of chicken from the big spinning stick
Then over flies a chip, flips, and hits you on the back
You spin round on the attack
'**** you playing at? he looks like a cheshire cat, almost falls down
Your frowns and superman eye lasers don't even register
By now you want to leather this ****
And forever your gonna regret that, your choice of path
So mash his head up and your girls now fed up
But stop to think and it's never gonna be the Jackie Chan scene it could have been to end up"

at least thats the way it seems to me

You see Jad thats where the generation gap comes into play, I think the streets are piss poor, and they don't sing to me, but they do to you! Which proves my point about niches.

Alpha Centauri
The first line was the only relevant one and even that isn't necessarily true.

You don't need to relate to lyrics to appreciate them. Shaun Ryder is an example of a man who couldn't write anything esoteric because he lacks both the intelligence and the creativity.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The first line was the only relevant one and even that isn't necessarily true.

You don't need to relate to lyrics to appreciate them. Shaun Ryder is an example of a man who couldn't write anything esoteric because he lacks both the intelligence and the creativity.

-AC

the fact he writes about condrete things real to many and conjures vivid pictures of attitudes and life is for me more interesting than the esoteric. Ryders lyrics are a snap shot of times and places, most esoterica is to selective in my opinion.

SWS smile

Alpha Centauri
Yes, of course esoteric lyrical content is selective. That's why it's labelled as esoteric. You know what esoteric means, yes?

You just disagreed with my point, then agreed with it. Ryder is lame. He uses 2pac syndrome with his lyrics. Just appeal to people who are asking for someone to appeal to them and you'll be labelled as a genius. 2pac, as I said, did this most classically. He wrote very shallow lyrics (in terms of there being not much there) but because they appealed to a very large group of people, they all felt as though he was doing something outstanding. His lyrics had no meaning to someone unknown to that lifestyle, even if they might be AWARE of the lifestyle. Similarly with Shaun Ryder.

Whilst his lyrics may have been genuine, they were poor. Very poor. Like anything associated with The Happy Mondays.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, of course esoteric lyrical content is selective. That's why it's labelled as esoteric. You know what esoteric means, yes?

You just disagreed with my point, then agreed with it. Ryder is lame. He uses 2pac syndrome with his lyrics. Just appeal to people who are asking for someone to appeal to them and you'll be labelled as a genius. 2pac, as I said, did this most classically. He wrote very shallow lyrics (in terms of there being not much there) but because they appealed to a very large group of people, they all felt as though he was doing something outstanding. His lyrics had no meaning to someone unknown to that lifestyle, even if they might be AWARE of the lifestyle. Similarly with Shaun Ryder.

Whilst his lyrics may have been genuine, they were poor. Very poor. Like anything associated with The Happy Mondays.

-AC

Yes, hence why I said it was selective, you understand my point yes?smile then why ask?

Ryder is lame in your opinion - not in the opinion of those who were there at the time - Even Channel fours Hall of Fame show acknowledged how great the Mondays were, and that was lame imo as a show. You have an opinion try not to be condescending about others AC wink or I won't give you your ball back smile

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Ryder is lame in your opinion - not in the opinion of those who were there at the time - Even Channel fours Hall of Fame show acknowledged how great the Mondays were, and that was lame imo as a show. You have an opinion try not to be condescending about others AC wink or I won't give you your ball back smile

I'm not being condescending, Shaun Ryder and The Happy Mondays are lame. You disagree and that's fine.

You're also basing this on the fact that you were "around" and interested when it happened. So you've been compromised. Like people who think Cliff Richard writes good christmas songs.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not being condescending, Shaun Ryder and The Happy Mondays are lame. You disagree and that's fine.

You're also basing this on the fact that you were "around" and interested when it happened. So you've been compromised. Like people who think Cliff Richard writes good christmas songs.

-AC

Not really ccompromised as I believe all songwriting is a product of its time to a point, and means more to those that lived through that time.

Sir Whirlysplat
Not really compromised as I believe all songwriting is a product of its time to a point, and means more to those that lived through that time.

Bardock42
I think of my favorite bands ore are British than American.....but then again that doesn't say much anyways.

NewJERU
The UK, of course.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Not really ccompromised as I believe all songwriting is a product of its time to a point, and means more to those that lived through that time.

I meant compromised in the sense of how a lady is biased toward a guy she likes or how someone is biased toward someone they're friends with.

You were there so your view isn't objective.

-AC

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You were there so your view isn't objective.

-AC

But everyone has some time they were "there" so everyones view is biased to some extend. And there are many people who don't even like the music made in their time. But since "Better Band" is only an opinion anyways it doesn't really matter.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Bardock42
But everyone has some time they were "there" so everyones view is biased to some extend. And there are many people who don't even like the music made in their time. But since "Better Band" is only an opinion anyways it doesn't really matter.

exactly my point Bardock. However if you are looking for long term influence in music the UK, I think has done more.

Alpha Centauri
Better band isn't always opinion, first of all. In this case it is.

Secondly Bardock, the type of music that Whirly refers to is only novelty. It was only good BECAUSE he was there for it. Grunge has passed, but it's still excellent today. The Happy Mondays existed because of a time, not the reverse.

-AC

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Better band isn't always opinion, first of all. In this case it is.

Secondly Bardock, the type of music that Whirly refers to is only novelty. It was only good BECAUSE he was there for it. Grunge has passed, but it's still excellent today. The Happy Mondays existed because of a time, not the reverse.

-AC

Well yes, if you compare technique and such there is of course better and such....

I think i understand what you mean, the reason for liking that band is not because they are overly great but because they are the spirit of that time?

Alpha Centauri
Well it must be, they're shit for any other reason.

-AC

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well it must be, they're shit for any other reason.

-AC
Well then again there are people who like 50 Cent, Britney Spears and Tool...so can't really say all people have good taste.

Alpha Centauri
I'm not saying Whirly has bad taste, I don't know what he likes or doesn't like.

Just that The Happy Mondays are shit.

-AC

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not saying Whirly has bad taste, I don't know what he likes or doesn't like.

Just that The Happy Mondays are shit.

-AC

Oh come on...you could at least give me some shit for placing Tool to that enumeration.

Anyways. What kind of music did the Happy Mondays make?

Alpha Centauri
Why would I now give you shit after admitting you were doing it to get my attention? I spotted it anyway smile. Your German villainy doesn't work with me.

Bad music...to answer your question.

-AC

Bardock42
Oh woe is me......if we gerans can't be villains what else is there....

I should maybe specify, I was asking what genre they are.

Victor Von Doom
Originally posted by Bardock42
the reason for liking that band is not because they are overly great but because they are the spirit of that time?

We English have a word for that: zeitgeist.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Better band isn't always opinion, first of all. In this case it is.

Secondly Bardock, the type of music that Whirly refers to is only novelty. It was only good BECAUSE he was there for it. Grunge has passed, but it's still excellent today. The Happy Mondays existed because of a time, not the reverse.

-AC

Shaun Ryder is a great influence on Damon and sings on Dare - he is very much still here. Ian Brown has continued success, the spin of bands from the Manchester sound are still huge.

Alpha Centauri
Influence on Damon as he's an influence on you. That means nothing. He was some faded nobody living in Manchester until they got him on DARE. Off the back of that he's trying to do a reunion which is failing miserably.

Ian Brown is shit now. He was good though.

-AC

Bardock42
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
We English have a word for that: zeitgeist.
Oh damn, I wish we had a word like that, too.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Influence on Damon as he's an influence on you. That means nothing. He was some faded nobody living in Manchester until they got him on DARE. Off the back of that he's trying to do a reunion which is failing miserably.

Ian Brown is shit now. He was good though.

-AC

Uh No - I saw the Reunion on Good Friday supported by the Farm, at Brixton Academy, it was a sellout and tickets were going outside for 3 times the price. It was called 24 hour party people and sold out everywhere it played putting on a number of extra nights. smile

Alpha Centauri
Britney sells out stadiums, touts are at almost every gig selling outrageously priced tickets.

What's your point? He was a faded nobody until they got him on DARE.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Britney sells out stadiums, touts are at almost every gig selling outrageously priced tickets.

What's your point? He was a faded nobody until they got him on DARE.

-AC

Not really they had the sold out tour long before Dare was released. He's hardly a faded nobody Black grape (who I did not like were big in the early nineties till legal problems) several TV documentary programmes have been made on him recently. The biopic movie 24 hour party people "the story of factory records", starring Steve Coogan, whilst a box office average hit in the UK, did well in Europe and on Video sales here. House music in the UK credits him as a pioneer. I agree he is a drug addled loony, that doesn't down play what he did, Step on still has regular radio airings as does Kinky Afro and Halleleujah.

They are doing another tour this year and talk of a new album if the legal problems ala Prince are sorted out. It's these legal issues surrounding a broken contract by Black Grape which have stopped him making music.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Not really they had the sold out tour long before Dare was released. He's hardly a faded nobody Black grape (who I did not like were big in the early nineties till legal problems) several TV documentary programmes have been made on him recently. The biopic movie 24 hour party people "the story of factory records", starring Steve Coogan, whilst a box office average hit in the UK, did well in Europe and on Video sales here. House music in the UK credits him as a pioneer. I agree he is a drug addled loony, that doesn't down play what he did, Step on still has regular radio airings as does Kinky Afro and Halleleujah.

They are doing another tour this year and talk of a new album if the legal problems ala Prince are sorted out. It's these legal issues surrounding a broken contract by Black Grape which have stopped him making music.

Legal issues don't stop people working with music. It's never stopped Prince, Tool, Patton or anyone else like that. They don't need publicity to indulge their music.

Black Grape, to be fair, were worse. Not only that, but they were riding the coattails of The Happy Mondays. Plus, that was early 90's. He faded, that's undeniable. Documentaries have been made on him recently because his name is out there a lot as a result of Damon and Jamie.

You can sit there all day saying what he DID back in the day and how house music in the UK credits him highly (wow, huge accolade there), but it doesn't remove from the fact that he faded away into Manchester until this recent hype of DARE. Even then it's off the back of someone else. You can continue revelling in the past, but that is what it is. The past.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Legal issues don't stop people working with music. It's never stopped Prince, Tool, Patton or anyone else like that. They don't need publicity to indulge their music.

Black Grape, to be fair, were worse. Not only that, but they were riding the coattails of The Happy Mondays. Plus, that was early 90's. He faded, that's undeniable. Documentaries have been made on him recently because his name is out there a lot as a result of Damon and Jamie.

You can sit there all day saying what he DID back in the day and how house music in the UK credits him highly (wow, huge accolade there), but it doesn't remove from the fact that he faded away into Manchester until this recent hype of DARE. Even then it's off the back of someone else. You can continue revelling in the past, but that is what it is. The past.

-AC

His sell out tour was sold out long before Dares release or anyone knew he was on the album. Black Grape was about 96 I think that they stopped making records. You don't like Dance nad House music? Thats you're choice some is very good. 24 hour party people is 2 or 3 years old, he has had several documentaries made on him in the last 5 years. When this happens with artists 10 years after it means they had an affect on the people making programmes when they were at University or early in their career. The UK Rock hall of fame show singled the Mondays out as the best act of the indie scene from the latter part of the nineties. Are they to your taste - obviously not, did they have impact at the time obviously yes, are they influential now, the fact Albarn wanted Ryder I would say in itself is a resounding yes.

Alpha Centauri
You are quoting things that happened years ago, this only proves my point. Mid to late nineties and early nineties. It's just making him look worse.

Them influencing A man doesn't mean they're some influential whirlwind.

My point was that it wasn't until DARE that he got back to being a name in people's discussions. You can't say "In the last 5 years...in 1996", it just proves my point. He may have been doing bits and pieces but he hasn't been a major known name since the mid nineties. Now he is, because he is getting a lot of success from his Gorillaz appearance.

My point being that whether you like it or not, he did fade and The Happy Mondays were as VVD said, a zeitgeist.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are quoting things that happened years ago, this only proves my point. Mid to late nineties and early nineties. It's just making him look worse.

Them influencing A man doesn't mean they're some influential whirlwind.

My point was that it wasn't until DARE that he got back to being a name in people's discussions. You can't say "In the last 5 years...in 1996", it just proves my point. He may have been doing bits and pieces but he hasn't been a major known name since the mid nineties. Now he is, because he is getting a lot of success from his Gorillaz appearance.

My point being that whether you like it or not, he did fade and The Happy Mondays were as VVD said, a zeitgeist.

-AC

You miss the point AC all bands have a zietgeist even the biggest and fade to a point. The fact that Bez won C Big Brother last year (not that I watched it) is another statement to the enduring appeal of the Mondays this was before Dare. The fact they had a sold out tour in the year before anyone knew Ryder was on Dare and Dare was released (thats all the year not years before). The fact 18 monthe before that 24 hour Party people was a success. All these things point to a recent enduring popularity. The best of the Happy Mondays came out in 2004 it was top ten in the UK Album charts, best of Albums from bands that broke up more than a decade earlier don't do much better than that (Nirvanas didn't).
Every band has a zeitgeist (hell U2 put out an album to embrace their own) the true greats have revivals in appeal, The Mondays have done this more than once, wink and are doing it again. Not to your taste perhaps but you don't like Dance, House or the Manchester scene and that doesn't make it less important. Punk died in the UK for about 20 years (trust me I was alive and saw it happen), then bands like Therapy started listening to some of the American eighties punk and did it better. Zeitgeists come and go, influence remains.

Sir Whirlysplat
Although with my Punk example it could be argued it haad transmuted into various other forms of music in the UK in the eighties.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You miss the point AC all bands have a zietgeist even the biggest and fade to a point. The fact that Bez won C Big Brother last year (not that I watched it) is another statement to the enduring appeal of the Mondays this was before Dare. The fact they had a sold out tour in the year before anyone knew Ryder was on Dare and Dare was released (thats all the year not years before). The fact 18 monthe before that 24 hour Party people was a success. All these things point to a recent enduring popularity. The best of the Happy Mondays came out in 2004 it was top ten in the UK Album charts, best of Albums from bands that broke up more than a decade earlier don't do much better than that (Nirvanas didn't).

Haha, you used Big Brother as some kind of credible example. That's strike one for your credibility. Peter Andre won people over when he was on that stupid show, does that make him good? No. Bez can barely form a word. He's stupid and as untalented as they come.

Nirvana aren't as accessible as The Happy Mondays. They are better though, so chart position means nothing. If you're trying to say he's loved by many Big Brother watching idiots with laddish mentalities, fine. Not exactly an accolade.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Every band has a zeitgeist (hell U2 put out an album to embrace their own) the true greats have revivals in appeal, The Mondays have done this more than once, wink and are doing it again. Not to your taste perhaps but you don't like Dance, House or the Manchester scene and that doesn't make it less important. Punk died in the UK for about 20 years (trust me I was alive and saw it happen), then bands like Therapy started listening to some of the American eighties punk and did it better. Zeitgeists come and go, influence remains.

Yes. Who does the influence remain on? The people who were there most of all. You're missing the point.

Grunge etc, it died. Punk, it died. It's still considered great because it was more than a novelty. It was made by people with talent. The MUSIC sparked the scene. The scene didn't spark the music. The Happy Mondays are a band who existed/exist because of a scene, a scene long dead. The reason they got a bit of a revival was because of people like you (that's not a negative, though it may sound such) who can't let go of a past time. Not because they're making great music.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Haha, you used Big Brother as some kind of credible example. That's strike one for your credibility. Peter Andre won people over when he was on that stupid show, does that make him good? No. Bez can barely form a word. He's stupid and as untalented as they come.

Nirvana aren't as accessible as The Happy Mondays. They are better though, so chart position means nothing. If you're trying to say he's loved by many Big Brother watching idiots with laddish mentalities, fine. Not exactly an accolade.



Yes. Who does the influence remain on? The people who were there most of all. You're missing the point.

Grunge etc, it died. Punk, it died. It's still considered great because it was more than a novelty. It was made by people with talent. The MUSIC sparked the scene. The scene didn't spark the music. The Happy Mondays are a band who existed/exist because of a scene, a scene long dead. The reason they got a bit of a revival was because of people like you (that's not a negative, though it may sound such) who can't let go of a past time. Not because they're making great music.

-AC

I think your arguing in a very one sided way because you don't like the type of music the Mondays made or the bands they influenced. As a result you deny the importance of both the Mondays and the Manchester movement (which was not completely laddish at all, remember 1990 NME labelled Spike Island the start of the second summer of love). Coldplay have admitted to a large influence from the Mondays particulrly in feel and use of samples. All bands exist because of a scene - You don't think Nirvana invented the Seattle sound do you, anymore than the Pistols invented punk. So Nirvanas revival is because they are good (you like them) the Mondays revival is because they are not good (I like them) I like Nirvana, I think they have dated far more than the Mondays though.

exanda kane
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Uh No - I saw the Reunion on Good Friday supported by the Farm, at Brixton Academy, it was a sellout and tickets were going outside for 3 times the price. It was called 24 hour party people and sold out everywhere it played putting on a number of extra nights. smile

i saw the happy Mondays a few months back and it was awesome.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by exanda kane
i saw the happy Mondays a few months back and it was awesome.

I saw then the first time for me 1989 at Nottingham Poly, just before I saw the Stone Roses at Nottingham Poly. Ryder was shit hot this year as well in my opinion exanda.

exanda kane
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I saw then the first time for me 1989 at Nottingham Poly, just before I saw the Stone Roses at Nottingham Poly. Ryder was shit hot this year as well in my opinion exanda.

Well I have to say I was bare young in 1989, but I kinda grew up on the whole britpop/manchester scene...so its all good really smile

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by exanda kane
Well I have to say I was bare young in 1989, but I kinda grew up on the whole britpop/manchester scene...so its all good really smile

Agreed do you like the Wonder Stuff?

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I think your arguing in a very one sided way because you don't like the type of music the Mondays made or the bands they influenced. As a result you deny the importance of both the Mondays and the Manchester movement (which was not completely laddish at all, remember 1990 NME labelled Spike Island the start of the second summer of love). Coldplay have admitted to a large influence from the Mondays particulrly in feel and use of samples. All bands exist because of a scene - You don't think Nirvana invented the Seattle sound do you, anymore than the Pistols invented punk. So Nirvanas revival is because they are good (you like them) the Mondays revival is because they are not good (I like them) I like Nirvana, I think they have dated far more than the Mondays though.

Exactly. You don't think it's a coincidence that the band's they influence are mostly shit? Coldplay? We have them to thank for Coldplay?

I deny the importance because it hasn't nearly has as large an impact on music as you claim. The Happy Mondays are liked by some people. So what? It was nowhere near as revolutionary or worldwide changing as the Grunge moment etc. It was a novelty act, to deny THAT is ignorant and my previous example is proof. You couldn't go to NY in the early 90's and talk about the laddish years or the Manchester scene. Who'd know? Nobody. It was a novelty loved by those involved and it never really reached anyone outside of it enough to survive. Why? Because it's members lack talent. None of them are good at what they do. Nirvana were nowhere near the best Grunge band, but they were very good. They were talented musicians. Them being so revered didn't come from people just being there. If you listen to the music that was around before, then and after, you can see just how much they changed worldwide music along with the other, better Grunge bands. What did The Happy Mondays do? Influence a couple of people. Big deal. They did nothing for MUSIC. MUSIC hasn't changed because of them. Bands like Nine Black Alps are still trying to reproduce or imitate the sound of the Grunge era. Who is trying to make another type of sound akin to the one of The Happy Mondays?

To use your own point against you, Bez was on Big Brother. The man needed more publicity than anyone else. If Kurt Cobain was still around, he wouldn't be doing that.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly. You don't think it's a coincidence that the band's they influence are mostly shit? Coldplay? We have them to thank for Coldplay?

I deny the importance because it hasn't nearly has as large an impact on music as you claim. The Happy Mondays are liked by some people. So what? It was nowhere near as revolutionary or worldwide changing as the Grunge moment etc. It was a novelty act, to deny THAT is ignorant and my previous example is proof. You couldn't go to NY in the early 90's and talk about the laddish years or the Manchester scene. Who'd know? Nobody. It was a novelty loved by those involved and it never really reached anyone outside of it enough to survive. Why? Because it's members lack talent. None of them are good at what they do. Nirvana were nowhere near the best Grunge band, but they were very good. They were talented musicians. Them being so revered didn't come from people just being there. If you listen to the music that was around before, then and after, you can see just how much they changed worldwide music along with the other, better Grunge bands. What did The Happy Mondays do? Influence a couple of people. Big deal. They did nothing for MUSIC. MUSIC hasn't changed because of them. Bands like Nine Black Alps are still trying to reproduce or imitate the sound of the Grunge era. Who is trying to make another type of sound akin to the one of The Happy Mondays?

To use your own point against you, Bez was on Big Brother. The man needed more publicity than anyone else. If Kurt Cobain was still around, he wouldn't be doing that.

-AC

The Charlatans (spirit of Manny scene if half american), Sea Horses, Sonic Youth etc all influenced people greatly. The Stone Roses produced for many the best UK album since Revolver. Who makes a sound similair to the Mondays - I'll let this US review explain to you )laddish only as personalities not in the music)

Double Easy: The U.S. Singles Review

07/13/2005 6:24 AM, AMG


Oddly enough, a greatest-hits set from the Mondays surfaced in America first rather than the U.K., but whatever the reason for its existence, Double Easy is a nicely random treat. Arranged more or less in chronological order, with the exception of the killer one-two punch of "W.F.L. (Think About the Future)" and the club mix of "Hallelujah" at the end of the disc, Double Easy makes a good primer for the baggy era's notorious group. Though leaving out a variety of strong album cuts means that it's by default an incomplete collection (and probably a couple of Yes, Please cuts could have been dropped from the running order), enough good times are in the grooves to summon up instant party vibes. Shaun Ryder and company's genius was that, unlike any number of stereotypical indie Brit groups, they felt the funk -- if the likes of early Kool & the Gang and Funkadelic were the true gods, at the very least the Mondays were good disciples. Combine that with a healthy take on everything from Mark E. Smith's ramalama style to electro beats and Beatles references and more, and what Double Easy demonstrates best in the end is that Beck's own formula had already been established years before. "Wrote for Luck," "Lazyitis," the "MacColl" mix of "Hallelujah," the "Stuff It In" mix of "Step On," "Kinky Afro," and the 12" version of "Loose Fit" help make this a great starting point for new fans, but hardcore followers will appreciate some rarities beyond the remixes. "Tokoloshe Man" -- like "Step On" a John Kongos cover, in this case recorded for the Rubaiyat tribute album -- makes for an intense romp, a bit Madchester by numbers but with a fine slick speed to it. Meanwhile, the underrated groove of "Judge Fudge" makes its first debut on album after its stand-alone appearance in 1991, with what sounds like a Marlena Shaw sample adding a swooping, just paranoid enough atmosphere to the proceedings. ~ Ned Raggett, All Music Guide

You don't like dance music cool. They were big in the US wink

Alpha Centauri
They were known, they weren't "big".

If you're not going to reply with your own words then I'll assume we've said enough to each other. It has nothing to do with me liking dance music or not. Goldfrapp have huge elements of dance, I think they're excellent.

I don't like shit.

-AC

§cooter
What do you consider... "Shit", AC?

Sir Whirlysplat

§cooter
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
basically what AC doesn't like - It's all subjective smile The latter part is true, I don't know about the former... though, it often seems that way.

Sir Whirlysplat

§cooter
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
yup end smile

-SWS j/k I'm too tired to comprehend that messed

Alpha Centauri
There are many bands I don't like that I don't consider shit. So no, it's not about what I don't like.

However, I don't listen to shit bands. I'm not gonna listen to shit bands just to have some shit taste for the sake of it. Some of the bands I listen to are nothing amazing, but they're not shit. That will always be subjective though. Talent isn't subjective, music made is.

I have too broad a view on what's shit to sit and explain it.

-AC

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There are many bands I don't like that I don't consider shit. So no, it's not about what I don't like.

However, I don't listen to shit bands. I'm not gonna listen to shit bands just to have some shit taste for the sake of it. Some of the bands I listen to are nothing amazing, but they're not shit. That will always be subjective though. Talent isn't subjective, music made is.

I have too broad a view on what's shit to sit and explain it.

-AC

The bands you listen to are not shit in your opinion AC, it's subjective. Talent is also subjective in the sense some people understand one persons music and not anothers based on socialisation, zeitgeist and a myriad of factors, this is going nowhere. If you can't see musical taste is totally subjective I don't see the point of debating this further.

Alpha Centauri
Did I say that the bands I like not being shit, in terms of music they create, was anything other than my opinion? No.

Talent is not subjective because there are actual requirements that can be looked at. EG: If your opinion is that the guy from Linkin Park is a better bassist than Geddy Lee, you are factually wrong. He's not as talented in terms of ability. Technical talent isn't subjective. If you think Rush aren't talented musicians on their instruments, you are factually wrong. If you think they make bad music, THAT is subjective.

Not everything is subjective. The only subjective element of music is the opinion on what is good and bad. Not who's talented and who's not. If you think Britney makes great music, you're not "wrong" per se. If you claim she's a talented singer or musician, you are.

-AC

§cooter
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Did I say that the bands I like not being shit, in terms of music they create, was anything other than my opinion? No.

Talent is not subjective because there are actual requirements that can be looked at. EG: If your opinion is that the guy from Linkin Park is a better bassist than Geddy Lee, you are factually wrong. He's not as talented in terms of ability. Technical talent isn't subjective. If you think Rush aren't talented musicians on their instruments, you are factually wrong. If you think they make bad music, THAT is subjective.

Not everything is subjective. The only subjective element of music is the opinion on what is good and bad. Not who's talented and who's not. If you think Britney makes great music, you're not "wrong" per se. If you claim she's a talented singer or musician, you are.

-AC Where do you get the factual information from then?

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Did I say that the bands I like not being shit, in terms of music they create, was anything other than my opinion? No.

Talent is not subjective because there are actual requirements that can be looked at. EG: If your opinion is that the guy from Linkin Park is a better bassist than Geddy Lee, you are factually wrong. He's not as talented in terms of ability. Technical talent isn't subjective. If you think Rush aren't talented musicians on their instruments, you are factually wrong. If you think they make bad music, THAT is subjective.

Not everything is subjective. The only subjective element of music is the opinion on what is good and bad. Not who's talented and who's not. If you think Britney makes great music, you're not "wrong" per se. If you claim she's a talented singer or musician, you are.

-AC

Carlos Santanna was not as technical as Hendrix, Hendrix however said he wished he could convey emotion like Santanna, Santanna has stated he wished he was as fast and innovative as Hendrix. Subjective.
You don't think Ryder is talented many including many critics think he is. Subjective.

end

- SWS

Alpha Centauri

§cooter
You misunderstood my post. I meant where do you get the factual information from.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
From where they are researchable.

EG: As been discussed before with singers. If someone says Britney is as talented a singer as Jeff Buckley they are factually wrong. Why? Because there are many catagories that make up what talent means. Technique, styles etc that are regarded higher in difficulty than others. Pitch, timbre, strength, sustain, octave range etc.

Compare Britney in each catagory to Jeff Buckley and it's laughable. Same with say...pianists and keyboardists. As one, by reading sheet music or by known techniques, I can tell what technical ability is better than another. I'm no Rick Wakeman by any means, but if some fan girl says "OMG! Chris Martin is SO much better than...". Then all she can say is that she prefers the music. Not that he is better, unless she knows what she's talking about. A lot of people hear Muse keyboard/piano riffs and assume that the man is some Tori Amos (who is astounding). Point being, some things that you hear aren't necessarily as hard or demanding of talent as you would believe.

Now, someone might very well not be technically astute, but make great music. EG: The quote adhering to Kurt Cobain, "Great guitarist? No. Did great things with a guitar? Yes." That's subjective because it refers to music made, not ability.

Ability is provable, preference isn't.



Missing the point again. Look:

"Carlos Santanna was not as technical as Hendrix." Exactly. It's a fact he's not as technically gifted as Hendrix. If you PREFER Santana, then that's up to you. You could never claim he had more technical ability. Hence me saying talent at your trade is provable. Because it's not a matter of "I think this sounds bad", "Yeah? I think it sounds good." It's a matter of "I think he's playing easy stuff." When he factually isn't.

-AC

talent is not just about technical ability, it can be about feel for a note etc. Mambstein was just about the most technical of all and it made him boring with truncated guitar solos etc. I think you miss the point AC talent can be measured in many ways making an overall analysis of talent subjective.

Alpha Centauri

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>