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It never ceases to amaze me when they find this stuff in kids homes. Where the FECK are their IDIOT parents?

I hope they spend a long time in that correctional facility. This is serious.

smart kids huh

Where are their parents? They're 17 and 15. Not 6 and 4.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Where are their parents? They're 17 and 15. Not 6 and 4.

-AC Indeed.

See I almost think in cases like this that the parent should ALSO face prosecution.

Why? They're way old enough to know what they're doing. Especially the 17 year old.

Stop looking to blame the parents also. Blame the kids, they did it.

-AC

Oh no, no. Simply because your child is 17 doesn't mean they STOP being your responsibility when they live under your roof. Sorry that argument doesn't hold water.

There's a big difference, you should know this.

A 17 year old being the "responsibility" of a parent just because they are one year away from being legal and a 17 year old not being responsible for their actions are two different things. They knew exactly what they were doing when they plotted the massacre.

You say blind things like "Where are the parents?" What do you mean? You think it went like this:

Mum: How was school, honey?
Kid: B*tchin'! We planned a massacre of our own free will!
Mum: Awww.

What do you mean "Where are the parents"? Obviously not aware that their kids are planning a massacre. Why does that indicate they should be held responsible? The kids obviously didn't do it with Mum's approval did they?

YOUR argument holds no water.

-AC

Just how many children do you have? MY point is, if a child lives under a parents roof then it is said parents responsibility to know what the hell said child has stored under the parents roof. And if they don't they are irresponsible PERIOD.

It doesn't matter how many children I have does it? What matters is that you asked where the parents are.

If a parent has no reason to believe that their child is plotting, oh I dunno, a massacre (cos it's a regular thing kids do these days isn't it?) why should they check on it? Not every parent checks every aspect of their kids lives. Purely because once kids reach a certain age, they keep a lot to themselves. I know because I've done it, yet I was raise perfectly well by my parents. Moreover, if you sanely have to think "Better go check on Timmy incase he's planning anything untoward and massacre-esque" then you've obviously failed as a parent anyway, in your opinion, right?

Your argument is leaking faster than a crone on imodium.

-AC

A 17 year old will do what they want, though, regardless of the parents, and are old enough to know what they're doing. I believe that's AC's point. Face it, parents aren't going to know everything the kid's up to at that age - can you honestly say that your parents knew every single thing you did when you were a teenager?

AC, because until you've BEEN a parent you are fairly clueless as to how that whole scenario operates now aren't you?

And I always knew what was going on UNDER my roof with my 2 oldest kids while they lived under my roof. I think the very fact that you have to use such gross and insulting comments like the latter proves you don't have what it takes to continue an adult conversation, therefore until someone comes along who can I'll be on my way. Have nice day now ya hear? And yes Lana they did actually.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Your argument is leaking faster than a crone on imodium.



Technically, Imodium prevents leakage. Poor reference.

Unless you are making defamatory claims about the performance of said pharmaceutical. In which case, expect a legal letter henceforth.

yah i agree. Where are those parents? ITs called negligence. How do you not know whats going on in your kids life? How do you not see the word HATE carved into his arm? Or homemade bomb instructions lying around in their room?...answer? parents are not in those kids lives..or not enough so that that this could have been prevented.

I mean come on. I live 400 miles away from my mom and dad and they call me up all the time. I'm 20 theyre still very much a part of my life.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
AC, because until you've BEEN a parent you are fairly clueless as to how that whole scenario operates now aren't you?

And I always knew what was going on UNDER my roof with my 2 oldest kids while they lived under my roof. I think the very fact that you have to use such gross and insulting comments like the latter proves you don't have what it takes to continue an adult conversation, therefore until someone comes along who can I'll be on my way. Have nice day now ya here? And yes Lana they did actually.

Then I do believe that you are the exception to the rule.

No doubt a1. And no I'm not, I know plenty of people that raise their children that way Lana. But then you and I have had this whole arguement once before (remember the locks on kids doors thread?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Because until you've BEEN a parent you are fairly clueless as to how that whole scenario operates now aren't you?

No, not at all. That's the belief of self-righteous parents who aren't willing to admit that anyone else who hasn't shared in the "amazing" experience of having a kid, has a valid opinion on raising one. Apparantly you share this. Nothing I'm saying is invalid and nothing you've said makes any kind of relevant or realistic sense. So maybe rethink your stance.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
And I always knew what was going on UNDER my roof with my 2 oldest kids while they lived under my roof. I think the very fact that you have to use such gross and insulting comment like the latter proves you don't have what it takes to continue an adult conversation, there fore until someone comes along who can I'll be on my way. Have nice day now ya her?

In your house, yes. In their minds? No. You may like to think so, but no. Because you're not psychic are you? No.

Don't use that lame excuse just because you've been exposed as the bearer or a faulty, self-righteous point of view by someone who's younger than you. It's not gonna garner you any respect.

The fact is, you said the parents are to blame. Why? Because you happened to have no trouble with your kids? Not all parents are as psychic as you. Your argument is flawed.

They're 17 and 14, not 6 and 4 as I previously said.

-AC

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
AC, because until you've BEEN a parent you are fairly clueless as to how that whole scenario operates now aren't you?

This seems more as if you're simply laughing it off/ignoring what AC than an actual response.

I think the more apposite accusation towards the parents is lack of a good upbringing, thereby fostering a child capable of such acts.

I don't believe, however, that once such damage has been done, a parent or parents can realistically keep tabs on everything that a child may do.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
No doubt a1. And no I'm not, I know plenty of people that raise their children that way Lana. But then you and I have had this whole arguement once before (remember the locks on kids doors thread?

Yes, well, I see no point as to why a teenager, someone who is nearly an adult, should not be able to have privacy and a lock on their door. I do, and it's a key lock. My mom is fine with letting me have it because, oh, concept here....she trusts me. She doesn't know every little thing that's going on in my life, she knows it, she's fine with it, because she respects the fact that not everything I do is her business.

Now, if your kid is a trouble case, like these two seem to be, then I'd see more reason for keeping an eye on them and watching what they do. But if they're not.....why do you need to know everything they're doing? That's just going to cause resentment from the kid.



Very good point.

Hey, guess what? I'm 15. Am I plotting to murder anyone? No. But, my dad doesn't really know what happens in my school, in fact I do not comminucate what happens there at all, and neither do ANY of my friends (Or anyone else in the school for that matter, except PTA member's children).

Since this case was blamed on general "Makin' fun of- <insert name here>", and since most kids don't really communicate what is going on at school, and since random massacre's are not something that every child will do by the age of 18, and since in my experience and the experience from my friends of both genders, children don't respond well to parental 'probing' of their lives, I conclude the parents wouldn't have had a f*cking clue what was about to happen.

So, where were the parents at? Living their life with free will, much like the children who were at ages 15 and 17... well above the age to know the difference between right and wrong.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, not at all. That's the belief of self-righteous parents who aren't willing to admit that anyone else who hasn't shared in the "amazing" experience of having a kid, has a valid opinion on raising one. Apparantly you share this. Nothing I'm saying is invalid and nothing you've said makes any kind of relevant or realistic sense. So maybe rethink your stance.



In your house, yes. In their minds? No. You may like to think so, but no. Because you're not psychic are you? No.

Don't use that lame excuse just because you've been exposed as the bearer or a faulty, self-righteous point of view by someone who's younger than you. It's not gonna garner you any respect.

The fact is, you said the parents are to blame. Why? Because you happened to have no trouble with your kids? Not all parents are as psychic as you. Your argument is flawed.

They're 17 and 14, not 6 and 4 as I previously said.

-AC

Do you even read what I write before you post? I specifically stated that a parent should know what was going on under their roof. NOT that they should be expected to know everything said child does while they are away from home. Once again for those of you in the cheap seats, these parents should have had full knowledge that their kids had these materials in their home. Secondly, that old whining mantra that you so often chant, that people older than you have some kind of grudge against you having an opinion is bullshit. Its called life experience and you simply do not have as much as someone who has been there, it's a fact and until you do, your argument doesn't get to have as much weight.

Exactly.

"I know what goes on with my kids. Trust me, they'd never think of doing anything bad. I've searched his room before, you always fear that you're gonna find something bad don't you? Luckily I didn't."

I overheard one of my mum's friend saying this not too long ago. Funny, because a day after that I saw said guy dealing drugs on a corner as I went to a friend's house.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly.

"I know what goes on with my kids. Trust me, they'd never think of doing anything bad. I've searched his room before, you always fear that you're gonna find something bad don't you? Luckily I didn't."

I overheard one of my mum's friend saying this not too long ago. Funny, because a day after that I saw said guy dealing drugs on a corner as I went to a friend's house.

-AC

Oh I know. I've seen so many cases of that.

A little respect and trust go a long way with kids.

Originally posted by Lana
Oh I know. I've seen so many cases of that.

A little respect and trust go a long way with kids.
until the point where its taken advantage of

Originally posted by Snoopbert
Hey, guess what? I'm 15. Am I plotting to murder anyone? No. But, my dad doesn't really know what happens in my school, in fact I do not comminucate what happens there at all, and neither do ANY of my friends (Or anyone else in the school for that matter, except PTA member's children).

Since this case was blamed on general "Makin' fun of- <insert name here>", and since most kids don't really communicate what is going on at school, and since random massacre's are not something that every child will do by the age of 18, and since in my experience and the experience from my friends of both genders, children don't respond well to parental 'probing' of their lives, I conclude the parents wouldn't have had a f*cking clue what was about to happen.

So, where were the parents at? Living their life with free will, much like the children who were at ages 15 and 17... well above the age to know the difference between right and wrong.
how does a kid come to the point where "oh hey, I think i want to go kill some friends" it doesnt happen overnight. it takes time a looooong time. And I refuse to believe that the parents were oblivios to the fact that stuff like that was being planned literally right in the next room

Originally posted by Lana
Oh I know. I've seen so many cases of that.

A little respect and trust go a long way with kids. Indeed. My dad treats me like I'm an adult... while the consequences of fook-ups are that an adult would recieve, I do get privacy and respect and I give it back. Generally if he asks, I'll tell.

Originally posted by a1hsauce
And I refuse to believe that the parents were oblivios to the fact that stuff like that was being planned literally right in the next room

Then you refuse to believe it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Do you even read what I write before you post? I specifically stated that a parent should know what was going on under their roof. NOT that they should be expected to know everything said child does while they are away from home. Once again for those of you in the cheap seats, these parents should have had full knowledge that their kids had these materials in their home.

Besides all that being as blinkered as hell, one question springs to mind:

If your kids gave you the impression that NOTHING was untoward, no trouble or anything. What reason would you have to think "Hmm, better search their rooms incase they have materials to massacre"? Did you ever do this:

If the answer is no, then my point is proven. If the answer is yes, then by your own definition you're a sucky parent for not having trust in your kids. Ouch, hypocricy is so bad isn't it?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Secondly, that old whining mantra that you so often chant, that people older than you have some kind of grudge against you having an opinion is bullshit. Its called life experience and you simply do not have as much as someone who has been there, it's a fact and until you do, your argument doesn't get to have as much weight.

It's also a fact that you're still using that after I've proven piece by piece that what you're saying is just self-righteous BS does it? Yes.

You're talking nonsense and I continually prove so. In retaliation, you say things as you did above and/or say you're refusing to discuss. Pointless and ironically childish.

This has nothing to do with life experience, everyone has "life experience". I don't have kid experience, why does this mean I have no knowledge of parents? Both my brother and sister are parents, my parents are obviously parents.

What you must mean then is that until I have a kid who sways my opinion, I have no "relevant" opinion? Do you see the failed logic in there? My guess is no, you do not.

-AC

Originally posted by Snoopbert
Indeed. My dad treats me like I'm an adult... while the consequences of fook-ups are that an adult would recieve, I do get privacy and respect and I give it back. Generally if he asks, I'll tell.

Funny, I seem to recall a post of yours a little while back in the OTF about how your dad wouldnt dare confront you about anything because you'd beat him down. That sounds absolutely nothing like respect to me.

Originally posted by a1hsauce

how does a kid come to the point where "oh hey, I think i want to go kill some friends" it doesnt happen overnight. it takes time a looooong time. And I refuse to believe that the parents were oblivios to the fact that stuff like that was being planned literally right in the next room

Walls are an effective detterent for one, and another, why would the parents recognize that they had bomb-construction instructions/materials? What makes everyone here think that everyone automatically knows what everything is?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Funny, I seem to recall a post of yours a little while back in the OTF about how your dad wouldnt dare confront you about anything because you'd beat him down. That sounds absolutely nothing like respect to me. Could you go find this post then?

Originally posted by a1hsauce
until the point where its taken advantage of


If it gets taken advantage of, it gets taken away. But a kid with their parents breathing down their neck is much more likely to do something stupid than one that gets a bit of privacy.

Originally posted by Snoopbert
Indeed. My dad treats me like I'm an adult... while the consequences of fook-ups are that an adult would recieve, I do get privacy and respect and I give it back. Generally if he asks, I'll tell.

Same here. My mom has always treated me like an adult - probably because of with my family situation I got stuck with a lot of responsibility at a young age.

I don't think it's fair to blame the parents to a full extent. Firstly, they could each come from a single parent home where the mother/father work extremely long hours to provide for brothers or sisters or these boys themselves.

Inded Lana, my dad's a single parent... the odlest in the family get's stuck with a lot of responsibility.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then you refuse to believe it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.





-AC

okay, so then by that post you concede that fact that parents either a) are blind to it or b) refuse to see it. either way theyre at fault for not communicating with their child. not seeing the warning signs and hell a long stretch if a Judge wants to be a dick about it, he can slap on an accessory charge to the parents as well for having that kind of crap go in in that household.

Originally posted by a1hsauce
okay, so then by that post you concede that fact that parents either a) are blind to it or b) refuse to see it. either way theyre at fault for not communicating with their child. not seeing the warning signs and hell a long stretch if a Judge wants to be a dick about it, he can slap on an accessory charge to the parents as well for having that kind of crap go in in that household.

No, where did you get that from?

I'm saying that you refusing to believe things doesn't mean they don't happen. All I believe is what I've said in previous posts and haven't seen a suitable counter-argument yet.

So feel free to go on.

You won't know what your kid doesn't want you to know. I know because I've been a kid hiding things from my parents who have always been there and raised me right. So has everyone at some point. That argument is lame.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then you refuse to believe it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.



Besides all that being as blinkered as hell, one question springs to mind:

If your kids gave you the impression that NOTHING was untoward, no trouble or anything. What reason would you have to think "Hmm, better search their rooms incase they have materials to massacre"? Did you ever do this:

If the answer is no, then my point is proven. If the answer is yes, then by your own definition you're a sucky parent for not having trust in your kids. Ouch, hypocricy is so bad isn't it?

Let me clear something up for you ok? I'm from the point of view where the only thing you owe your child while they live under your roof is love, food, clothing & shelter. I don't "owe my kid anything beyond that. They have to earn my respect. And your quaint little biting way of debating, is silly. Stop trying to pass yourself off as some kind of orator because you aren't.





Again I didn't say your opinion wasn't relevant, what I said was that it doesn't carry as much weight. Please learn to read my responses before you fabricate what you want them to say.

And Silver, I didnt say they should take all the blame, I said they should share in it.

You sound like White Snow Angel "If you re-read my first post, you'll see I agree with you. "

Originally posted by Snoopbert
Walls are an effective detterent for one, and another, why would the parents recognize that they had bomb-construction instructions/materials? What makes everyone here think that everyone automatically knows what everything is?
its called reading.

Originally posted by Lana
If it gets taken advantage of, it gets taken away. But a kid with their parents breathing down their neck is much more likely to do something stupid than one that gets a bit of privacy.



Same here. My mom has always treated me like an adult - probably because of with my family situation I got stuck with a lot of responsibility at a young age.
Exactly! that means a parent has their eyes open! they see whats going on and they know whats going on.

What the hell? Why would a parent read about how to make a bomb and what a bomb looks like? Then you'll get labeled as a terrorist or something along those lines.

I've never once looked up either of those things, and I've had my own internet access for 4 years.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Let me clear something up for you ok? I'm from the point of view where the only thing you owe your child while they live under your roof is love, food, clothing & shelter. I don't "owe my kid anything beyond that. They have to earn my respect. And your quaint little biting way of debating, is silly. Stop trying to pass yourself off as some kind of orator because you aren't.

Yeah, pretty post and all that, but where's the relevance?

Answer my question, here it is:

If your kids gave you the impression that NOTHING was untoward, no trouble or anything. What reason would you have to think "Hmm, better search their rooms incase they have materials to massacre"? Did you ever do this?

Answer please.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Again I didst say you opinion wasn't relevant, what I said was that it doesn't carry as much weight. Please learn to read my responses before you fabricate what you want them to say.

Yours doesn't carry weight just because you have a kid, toots. Why? Because it's still a flawed and so far, broken point of view. As I've proven so far.

Hide behind "I have a kid" all you want, it's not giving your relevant argument any more power. It's just making you look more compromised and biased.

-AC

Originally posted by Snoopbert
What the hell? Why would a parent read about how to make a bomb and what a bomb looks like? Then you'll get labeled as a terrorist or something along those lines.

I've never once looked up either of those things, and I've had my own internet access for 4 years.
i should have clarified... you said why would the parent recognize bomb construction materials and instruction...

my response was, the parent should read the damn instructions. read it. if it looks funny, ask about it? ask the kid, 'hey is that for a science project, ASK!?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, pretty post and all that, but where's the relevance?

Answer my question, here it is:

If your kids gave you the impression that NOTHING was untoward, no trouble or anything. What reason would you have to think "Hmm, better search their rooms incase they have materials to massacre"? Did you ever do this?

Answer please.

Yep, I went through my older children's room on a regular basis. My house~my right. I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with it, but then again, it's my house not yours.





I can live with that as your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on my life.



I think the main point here is these kids had been thrown out of the school they were planning to commit the massacre in. That alone should have been a HUGE tipoff and the fact that their parents were obviously clueless is shameful. Can you explain their responsibility away on that?

But, what makes you think such bomb instructions were laying right there on the bed? The kids obviously knew the signifance of those instructions. Why would they leave them right there for the parents to see?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Yep, I went through my older children's room on a regular basis. My house my right. Don;t expect you or anyone else to agree with it, but then again, it's my house not yours.





I can live with that as your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on my life.



I think the main point here is these kids had been thrown out of the school they were planning to commit the massacre in. Thats should have been a HUGE tipoff and the fact that their parents were obviously clueless is shameful. Can you explain their responsibility away on that? Why do you assume they weren't punished severely and weren't under parental scrutiny?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, pretty post and all that, but where's the relevance?

Answer my question, here it is:

If your kids gave you the impression that NOTHING was untoward, no trouble or anything. What reason would you have to think "Hmm, better search their rooms incase they have materials to massacre"? Did you ever do this?

Answer please.



Yours doesn't carry weight just because you have a kid, toots. Why? Because it's still a flawed and so far, broken point of view. As I've proven so far.

Hide behind "I have a kid" all you want, it's not giving your relevant argument any more power. It's just making you look more compromised and biased.

-AC
dude I have tremendous respect for you, you can argue with the best of em, but I dunno if anyones ever told you, its kind of a huge turn off and a resentment tool when you keep saying someones opinions are lame and using words like toots. someone could take it as condescension.

just saying, youre arguments could be alot more effective if you could leave those out

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Yep, I went through my older children's room on a regular basis. My house my right. Don;t expect you or anyone else to agree with it, but then again, it's my house not yours.

Haha, and despite your kids apparantly giving you no problems, you still checked their rooms "incase" they managed to slip something by you? Well then my point is proven.

Parents do trust their kids enough not to go checking their rooms for dangerous materials. Contrary to your belief, it's not a good thing if you have to regularly search your kids rooms for dangerous things, even worse if you CHOOSE to.

My point is proven.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I can live with that as your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on my life.

I think the main point here is these kids had been thrown out of the school they were planning to commit the massacre in. Thats should have been a HUGE tipoff and the fact that their parents were obviously clueless is shameful. Can you explain their responsibility away on that?

Where do you connect "Kid gets thrown out of school" with "Kid is planning a massacre"?

Just curious.

-AC

Originally posted by Snoopbert
But, what makes you think such bomb instructions were laying right there on the bed? The kids obviously knew the signifance of those instructions. Why would they leave them right there for the parents to see?
okay granted they might not have been laying around everywhere, how bout the other signs. signs like carving the Word Hate in your arm. now thats gotta spell trouble. Or is there a fashion trend that im not up to date with? I gotta keep hip too you know

Originally posted by a1hsauce
dude I have tremendous respect for you, you can argue with the best of em, but I dunno if anyones ever told you, its kind of a huge turn off and a resentment tool when you keep saying someones opinions are lame and using words like toots. someone could take it as condescension.

just saying, youre arguments could be alot more effective if you could leave those out

Condescension like "Your opinion doesn't hold as much weight because your not a parent, I am."?

Oh wait...

-AC

Originally posted by a1hsauce
dude I have tremendous respect for you, you can argue with the best of em, but I dunno if anyones ever told you, its kind of a huge turn off and a resentment tool when you keep saying someones opinions are lame and using words like toots. someone could take it as condescension.

just saying, youre arguments could be alot more effective if you could leave those out

Yup, kind of belies anything of relevance that he's trying to convey doesn't it.

And Snoop had they known it wouldnt have got to tht point if they were decent parents wouldnt it have?

Originally posted by a1hsauce
okay granted they might not have been laying around everywhere, how bout the other signs. signs like carving the Word Hate in your arm. now thats gotta spell trouble. Or is there a fashion trend that im not up to date with? I gotta keep hip too you know Yes, we're all carving the word hate in our arms.

No, but seriously, that is a sign, but it could easily be chalked up to different problems... though, there is no information on whether or not they were being "helped" for such things as depression (That the parents might've been clued in on). Or maybe they just though they were goth/emo?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Yup, kind of belies anything of relevance that he's trying to convey doesn't it.

No, it doesn't at all does it? Everything I've said is still as relevant. That's you desperately trying to find an excuse to write off my posts because they're taking apart your argument.

Shame that.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Condescension like "Your opinion doesn't hold as much weight because your not a parent, I am."?

Oh wait...

-AC He didn't say she wasn't doing it either, but you don't have to do it to get a point across.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Condescension like "Your opinion doesn't hold as much weight because your not a parent, I am."?

Oh wait...

-AC

No, it would be like me opening my mouth in a debate about the effects of cocaine usage. That's something Ive never experienced therefore I have no business acting like I know what I am talking about in a conversation about said topic. Much like you and this topic. And will you please grow up? NO ONE here is desperately trying to do anything to you. Sheesh. And go back and answer my question.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Condescension like "Your opinion doesn't hold as much weight because your not a parent, I am."?

Oh wait...

-AC
well with that post i can kind of understand that stance. You dont really know a person until you jump into their skin, and walk around in it.

"And Snoop had they known it wouldnt have got to tht point if they were decent parents wouldnt it have?"

Huh?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
No, it would be like me opening my mouth in a debate about the effects of cocaine usage. That's something Ive never experienced therefore I have no business acting like I know what I am talking about in a conversation about said topic. Much like you and this topic. And will you please grow up? NO ONE here is desperately trying to do anything to you. Sheesh. And go back and answer my question. Experienced or not, the knowledge on the effects is readily available. Bad analogy.

Originally posted by Snoopbert
"And Snoop had they known it wouldnt have got to tht point if they were decent parents wouldnt it have?"

Huh?

You asked me a question and I answered it. Also I'd like to know just where I have made any kind of belittling comment to AC in this thread? I havent called him one single name or made one stupid analogy. Unfortunate he cant say the same. Reading the effects of cocaine usage and living them is far and away completely different.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
No, it would be like me opening my mouth in a debate about the effects of cocaine usage. That's something Ive never experienced therefore I have no business acting like I know what I am talking about in a conversation about said topic. Much like you and this topic.

But it IS possible to know about drugs and their effects. Thus being the point you missed about being a parent NOT necessarily meaning that you know the most about it.

It's even sillier that you are now saying I have no business acting like I know what I'm talking about in this topic, despite me tearing apart your arguments to the point that you're no longer replying to them.

Here's my last post:

Me: Haha, and despite your kids apparantly giving you no problems, you still checked their rooms "incase" they managed to slip something by you? Well then my point is proven.

Parents do trust their kids enough not to go checking their rooms for dangerous materials. Contrary to your belief, it's not a good thing if you have to regularly search your kids rooms for dangerous things, even worse if you CHOOSE to.

My point is proven.

You: I can live with that as your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on my life.

I think the main point here is these kids had been thrown out of the school they were planning to commit the massacre in. Thats should have been a HUGE tipoff and the fact that their parents were obviously clueless is shameful. Can you explain their responsibility away on that?

Me: Where do you connect "Kid gets thrown out of school" with "Kid is planning a massacre"?

Just curious.

Now if you could reply to these.

Edit:

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
You asked me a question and I answered it. Also I'd like to know just where I have made any kind of belittling comment to AC in this thread? I havent called him one single name or made one stupid analogy. Unfortunate he cant say the same.

Whether you like my analogies or not, that's kinda tough. Using them as an excuse is a bit desperate. I haven't called you a "name" either. You're self-righteous about parenting, that's a fact.

-AC

Originally posted by Snoopbert
Yes, we're all carving the word hate in our arms.

No, but seriously, that is a sign, but it could easily be chalked up to different problems... though, there is no information on whether or not they were being "helped" for such things as depression (That the parents might've been clued in on). Or maybe they just though they were goth/emo?
Okay that is sooo wrong! just because youre labeled goth and Emo doesnt mean its okay to carve shit in your arm. Just because I'm a Unabomberer doesnt give me the right to set off bombs around Oklahoma

But really who doesnt own a gaskmask knives and a bomb making kit :-/

Originally posted by a1hsauce
Okay that is sooo wrong! just because youre labeled goth and Emo doesnt mean its okay to carve shit in your arm. Just because I'm a Unabomberer doesnt give me the right to set off bombs around Oklahoma Eh? I didn't say it was right, now did I? I was naming a possiblity.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
But it IS possible to know about drugs and their effects. Thus being the point you missed about being a parent NOT necessarily meaning that you know the most about it.

It's even sillier that you are now saying I have no business acting like I know what I'm talking about in this topic, despite me tearing apart your arguments to the point that you're no longer replying to them.

Here's my last post:

Me: Haha, and despite your kids apparantly giving you no problems, you still checked their rooms "incase" they managed to slip something by you? Well then my point is proved.

Parents do trust their kids enough not to go checking their rooms for dangerous materials. Contrary to your belief, it's not a good thing if you have to regularly search your kids rooms for dangerous things, even worse if you CHOOSE to.

My point is proved.

You: I can live with that as your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on my life.

I think the main point here is these kids had been thrown out of the school they were planning to commit the massacre in. Thats should have been a HUGE tipoff and the fact that their parents were obviously clueless is shameful. Can you explain their responsibility away on that?

Me: Where do you connect "Kid gets thrown out of school" with "Kid is planning a massacre"?

Just curious.

Now if you could reply to these.

Edit:



Whether you like my analogies or not, that's kinda tough. Using them as an excuse is a bit desperate. I haven't called you a "name" either. You're self-righteous about parenting, that's a fact.

-AC

AC, if it gives you some kind of "mental orgasm" to labor under the impression that you've torn apart my arguments and proved your point, go for it. I told you, I don't CARE what you think. Sorry I just don't. The fact that you started out this debate by making reference to an old crone and Imodium shot ANY credibility you had right out the window from the get go.

To answer your question, that should have been a tip off that something wasn't going right. Kids don't get thrown out of schools for no reason whatsoever.

Originally posted by Dordaness
But really who doesnt own a gaskmask knives and a bomb making kit :-/ Lots of people own knives, and in all honesty I have a gas mask, so do two of my friends, and there was a spree of halloween purchases for them here.

Originally posted by Dordaness
But really who doesnt own a gaskmask knives and a bomb making kit :-/

If you dont have anything whorthwhile to contribute to this discussion please dont partake in it. Your attempt at comedy has fallen flat.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
AC, if it gives you some kind of "mental orgasm" to labor under the impression that you've torn part my arguments and proved your point, go for it. I told you, I don't CARE what you think. Sorry I just don't. The fact that you started out this debate by making reference to an old crone and Imodium shot ANY credibility you had right out the window from the get go.

All I see here is more excuses not to reply to me. You're proving my point and now I'll close my case.

You cared what I thought enough to reply up until it got a little too hard to reply and now you've completely backed out. At least admit where you've been proven wrong. You're not one to talk of credibility when:

A) You're sitting there saying what I say doesn't matter to you. So what makes you think that what you say about my credibility, matters to me?

and B) You're harping on one analogy I made just because you can no longer reply.

Either way, your original claim that the parents should know about what was going on has been proven to be wrong and clouded, ironically by you more than me. Done.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
To answer your question, that should have been a tip off that something wasn't going right. Kids don't get thrown out of schools for no reason whatsoever.

Right, so again I'll ask you seeing as you didn't answer me: Where did you connect getting thrown out of school with plotting a massacre?

-AC

im suprised that they contructed a bomb.

Probably learned it in workshop.

-AC

look ac, its a given that americans are subject to irrational paranoia, like suspending a kid for wearing a rock shirt or having green hair. ever since columbine things have been ridiculous with the policies of certain schools, although much of that irrationality has died down thankfully.

but to get THROWN OUT is something entirely different. you have to earn that shit.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
All I see here is more excuses not to reply to me. You're proving my point and now I'll close my case.

You cared what I thought enough to reply up until it got a little too hard to reply and now you've completely backed out. At least admit where you've been proven wrong. You're not one to talk of credibility when:

A) You're sitting there saying what I say doesn't matter to you. So what makes you think that what you say about my credibility, matters to me?

and B) You're harping on one analogy I made just because you can no longer reply.

Either way, your original claim that the parents should know about what was going on has been proven to be rather bad. Done.



Right, so again I'll ask you seeing as you didn't answer me: Where did you connect getting thrown out of school with plotting a massacre?

-AC

*sigh* One more time:

This
time
read
my post
before
you start
to
type.

It is not hard to reply to you, it's a waste of time. I simply choose NOT to continue having an arguement with an individual that has such an inflated sense of the weight their opinion has on others. Again in this last post you've went on and on about how you've done this and you've done that in this debate. Whoop de do! Good for you! Lets all have a party! IF it helps your self esteem to assume that you can conquer any debate given by stating "I've won! ( in as many words as you have) over and over, go for it man!

And once again I didnt say that getting kicked out of school means your child is planning a massacre, I said when your child gets kicked out of school there is a problem that needs to be addessed.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Probably learned it in workshop.

-AC

the authorities said they got instructions off the internet. Im suprised they trust the internet about bomb-making. What a bunch of sad emo punks...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
All I see here is more excuses not to reply to me. You're proving my point and now I'll close my case.

You cared what I thought enough to reply up until it got a little too hard to reply and now you've completely backed out. At least admit where you've been proven wrong. You're not one to talk of credibility when:

A) You're sitting there saying what I say doesn't matter to you. So what makes you think that what you say about my credibility, matters to me?

and B) You're harping on one analogy I made just because you can no longer reply.

Either way, your original claim that the parents should know about what was going on has been proven to be wrong and clouded, ironically by you more than me. Done.



Right, so again I'll ask you seeing as you didn't answer me: Where did you connect getting thrown out of school with plotting a massacre?

-AC If it's Option A, why does she even post here?

Snoop, please dont resort to your childish habit of trying to start an arguement. Dont you ever get tired of behaving like that with me? I'm replying to the thread on a topic that I posted about because I feel it is an important issue. Oh nevermind, Ive given up trying to have a civil conversation with you so I'll go back to ignoring you.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
It is not hard to reply to you, it's a waste of time. I simply choose NOT to continue having an arguement with an individual that has such an inflated sense of the weight their opinion has on others. Again in this last post you've went on and on about how you've done this and you've done that in this debate. Whoop de do! Good for you! LEts all have a party! IF it helps your self esteem to assume that you can conquer any debate given by stating "I've won! ( in as many words) over and over, go for it man!

Instead of making excuses and foolishly trying to shift your inability (because that's what it is, you kidding yourself aside) to reply to me, onto me...here's an idea: Try replying on topic. Good? Can you do that? Why don't you stop acting (again the irony) like a kid and actually do that next time?

I'm not claiming it as an accolade. You just aren't conceding the point which I have fairly put to rest. Which is the sign of someone who shouldn't be in debates. Next time, reply to me relevantly or just stop bothering. Certainly don't whine about wasting time and then TAKE the time to type up a load of irrelevant, ironically self-consoling bs about how you don't have the time. You could have easily used the time it took to create that post, to reply on topic. Points getting proven everywhere.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
And once again I didnt say that getting kicked out of school means your child is planning a massacre, I said when your child gets kicked out of school there is a problem that needs to be addessed.

Right.

So how is that relevant to parents knowing about their kids planning a massacre? If you aren't connecting the two.

-AC

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Snoop, please dont resort to your childish habit of trying to start an arguement. Dont you ever get tired of behaving like that with me? I'm replying to the thread on a topic that I posted about because I feel it is an important issue. Oh nevermind, Ive given up trying to have a civil conversation with you so I'll go back to ignoring you. Ok, we'l play the label game. JP, please stop resorting to self-righteous commenting and actually contribute to the debate rather than dance around everyone's post and then claim they suxx0r.

wait a minute...didnt they get thrown out for making terrorst threats and admitting to planning to kill their classmates?

It just says for disciplinary reasons.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Instead of making excuses and foolishly trying to shift your inability (because that's what it is, you kidding yourself aside) to reply to me, onto me...here's an idea: Try replying on topic. Good? Can you do that? Why don't you stop acting (again the irony) like a kid and actually do that next time?

I'm not claiming it as an accolade. You just aren't conceding the point which I have fairly put to rest. Which is the sign of someone who shouldn't be in debates. Next time, reply to me relevantly or just stop bothering. Certainly don't whine about wasting time and then TAKE the time to type up a load of irrelevant, ironically self-consoling bs about how you don't have the time. You could have easily used the time it took to create that post, to reply on topic. Points getting proven everywhere.

I just got done telling you that I'm not going to respond to this part of anymore of your posts. Go do your mental jerk off with someone else.





It means you should be checking into what your kid is up to. And FYI hearkening back to your assumption that I feel I am some kind of a "super" parent, nothing could be farther from the truth. In my early twenties when my oldest 2 were young, I was a lousy parent. Pretty much did very little to enrich their lives. My older daughter came out of it ok while my son is a complete and utter feckup today, which while not entirely my fault, I certainly hold a great share of the responsibility for.

Just says 'for disciplinary reasons'. For all we know, the could have simply mouthed off to a teacher or gotten in a fight - kids HAVE gotten thrown out of a school for that before. It's happened at my school.

Originally posted by Lana
Just says 'for disciplinary reasons'. For all we know, the could have simply mouthed off to a teacher or gotten in a fight - kids HAVE gotten thrown out of a school for that before. It's happened at my school.

Did that happen for them having a history for it or was it a first time offense? Im curious.

Originally posted by Lana
Just says 'for disciplinary reasons'. For all we know, the could have simply mouthed off to a teacher or gotten in a fight - kids HAVE gotten thrown out of a school for that before. It's happened at my school.

we're on the same page right? you mean "thrown out" as in "expelled"
wow...times have changed indeed

Originally posted by PVS
we're on the same page right? you mean "thrown out" as in "expelled"
wow...times have changed indeed

Yep. Happened twice that I can remember.

Originally posted by Lana
Yep. Happened twice that I can remember.

were there weapons involved?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Did that happen for them having a history for it or was it a first time offense? Im curious.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I just got done telling you that I'm not going to respond to this part of anymore of your posts. Go do your mental jerk off with someone else.

I know you're not, hence why I said my case was closed. I've proven my point, take a chill pill, jeez.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
It means you should be checking into what your kid is up to. And FYI hearkening back to your assumption that I feel I am some kind of a "super" parent, nothing could be farther from the truth. In my early twenties when my oldest 2 were young, I was a lousy parent. Pretty much did very little to enrich their lives. My older daughter came out of it ok while my son is a complete and utter feckup today, which while not entirely my fault, I certainly hold a great share of the responsibility for.

Another self-indulgent parental musing. Please stop those. We get that you have kids, ok? It doesn't matter too much.

Secondly, checking into what your kid is "up to", yes. As I said when I proved my point earlier that you conveniently dodged:

"Haha, and despite your kids apparantly giving you no problems, you still checked their rooms "incase" they managed to slip something by you? Well then my point is proven.

Many parents do trust their kids enough not to go checking their rooms for dangerous materials. Contrary to your belief, it's not a good thing if you have to regularly search your kids rooms for dangerous things, even worse if you CHOOSE to."

Why is it worse? Because it indicates that despite all the parenting in the world, you still believe that they're capable of doing bad things independently of yo....oh wait. THAT would mean?!?! Yes, exactly.

Case closed.

-AC

Originally posted by PVS
were there weapons involved?

Nope.

And so far as I know, neither had any history for doing anything other than what they got kicked out for - mouthing off and fighting. IE, nothing major.

There are always exceptions to the rules AC, surely you must know that. I never once said every child, every case. My point with my "parental musing" as you call it, was to disprove your point that I think Im some kind of be all end all parent. Which I believe was one of the points of your debate. Make up your mind. I think what the deal here is you cant handle it when someone honestly answers a point you've made by something that proves you wrong. And Lana in my opinion fighting in school is a major offense.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
And Lana in my opinion fighting in school is a major offense.

worthy of suspension, but to be thrown out of school?
i've had to defend myself, so technically i fought.
according to the same rational i would have deserved expulsion.
and before you say that there should be an exception for self
defense, keep in mind that most if not all schools approach fighting
in a "i dont care who started it" mentallity.

OK I misread it then. I thought she was speaking of suspension. That would be excessive unless there was a definite possibility of loss of life during this fight.

Originally posted by Lana
Just says 'for disciplinary reasons'. For all we know, the could have simply mouthed off to a teacher or gotten in a fight - kids HAVE gotten thrown out of a school for that before. It's happened at my school. Same here, but gnerally only for a history of... but that doesn't really mean anything.

Which there wasn't.

So really, it's not that hard to get yourself kicked out of a school.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
There are always exceptions to the rules AC, surely you must know that. I never once said every child, every case. My point with my "parental musing" as you call it, was to disprove your point that I think Im some kind of be all end all parent. Which I believe was one of the points of your debate. Make up your mind. I think what the deal here is you cant handle it when someone honestly answers a point you've made by something that proves you wrong. And Lana in my opinion fighting in school is a major offense.

You've not proven anything wrong yet, what was that about mentally jerking off? I never insisted you believed you were a super parent in any serious way.

Exactly. There are exceptions to the rules. That isn't applicable to my post though.

I'm sure you didn't believe that your kids were about to go killing people, did you? If the answer is no, then why search their rooms? To be safe, right? Fine. I just hope you realise that by doing this you are implying that kids are way more than capable of doing bad things independently of the parental unit. Not all parents feel the need to check their children's rooms for dangerous equipment if they are given no reason to.

This may very well have been the case. So "Where the feck are the idiot parents?" isn't an applicable opening to your debate. Good? Great. Finished.

-AC

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
OK I misread it then. I thought she was speaking of suspension. That would be excessive unless there was a definite possibility of loss of life during this fight.

thats why im changing my outlook on this.
from what lana is saying it seems these days school
boards are dishing out expulshions for something as
common as fighting. 15 years ago i would have agreed to
your point of the connection with kicked out of school and
such a planned attack, since when i was in school,
only the psychotic douchebags got expelled. but from what i'm
learning here, my mind has changed

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


I'm sure you didn't believe that your kids were about to go killing people, did you?

-AC

To answer you honestly, yes actually I think my son is was indeed capable of taking another life and there have been times I wouldnt give him access to my house because I feared for my own life.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You've not proven anything wrong yet, what was that about mentally jerking off? I never insisted you believed you were a super parent in any serious way.

Exactly. There are exceptions to the rules. That isn't applicable to my post though.

I'm sure you didn't believe that your kids were about to go killing people, did you? If the answer is no, then why search their rooms? To be safe, right? Fine. I just hope you realise that by doing this you are implying that kids are way more than capable of doing bad things independently of the parental unit. Not all parents feel the need to check their children's rooms for dangerous equipment if they are given no reason to.

This may very well have been the case. So "Where the feck are the idiot parents?" isn't an applicable opening to your debate. Good? Great. Finished.

-AC

ac, not all kids are fascinated with firearms out of a want to kill. in fact most are not. she probably was just checking not because the thought her kids might be evil, but just stupid. and since most if not all kids are frikin stupid, its a wise move

:edit: then again, from the last post i stand corrected in JP's case. but if i had kids i would check regardless
of suspicion. like i said, kids are stupid

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
To answer you honestly, yes actually I think my son is was indeed capable of taking another life and there have been times I wouldnt give him access to my house because I feared for my own life.

Exactly. If you had reason, then you obviously had the heads up.

If these parents were given no reason to believe their kids were anything more than a bit troublesome, why would they go scavenging around the room for destructive weaponry? Let's use logic. It wouldn't happen.

You are applying your experience to everyone else.

-AC

Originally posted by PVS
ac, not all kids are fascinated with firearms out of a want to kill. in fact most are not. she probably was just checking not because the thought her kids might be evil, but just stupid. and since most if not all kids are frikin stupid, its a wise move

You don't own weaponry and plan a massacre just because you're stupid. You do it because you want to kill.

Either way, if the parents in question have no reason to believe their kids are up to anything, most parents who do respect their kids aren't about to go ravaging their rooms. This is common sense and occurance.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't own weaponry and plan a massacre just because you're stupid. You do it because you want to kill.

Either way, if the parents in question have no reason to believe their kids are up to anything, most parents who do respect their kids aren't about to go ravaging their rooms. This is common sense and occurance.

-AC I've said it before and I'll say it again, most people (ARound here anyway) have knives. Guns on the other hand are somewhat rarer, but there is a trap shooting course in our school and shotguns aren't uncommon for properly trained and "safety certified" children to have a gun.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't own weaponry and plan a massacre just because you're stupid. You do it because you want to kill.

Either way, if the parents in question have no reason to believe their kids are up to anything, most parents who do respect their kids aren't about to go ravaging their rooms. This is common sense and occurance.

-AC

I dont know about that, I went through both my other kids rooms and they have given me no reason to.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't own weaponry and plan a massacre just because you're stupid. You do it because you want to kill.

Either way, if the parents in question have no reason to believe their kids are up to anything, most parents who do respect their kids aren't about to go ravaging their rooms. This is common sense and occurance.

-AC

ac, in most of these cases the parents are not participating in their kids' lives anyway. so yeah, they had no reason to suspect anything. how can you suspect when you have nothing to do with them?

Good point PVS.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I dont know about that, I went through both my other kids rooms and they have given me no reason to.

and you were wise to do so.
i was a good kid, never bugged anyone. but had enough fireworks in my room to start a war

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I dont know about that, I went through both my other kids rooms and they have given me no reason to.

This is exactly what I mean. Why do you immediately use yourself as an example?

It's not a GOOD thing to say "Yeah I searched my kids rooms with no reason." That doesn't make you a good parent. I was referring to, oh, every parent I've ever known. You taking the search-the-rooms route is just you in this thread. Stop applying your parenting to everything.

Snoop: If the parents allow their kids to have guns, then I think the explanation is obvious. That has nothing to do with the point I make.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is exactly what I mean. Why do you immediately use yourself as an example?
-AC

you use personal experience in many debates as well ac. why is that so wrong?
if you have life's experience then you certainly have the right to enter it into a debate.

Fact is, no one knows why events like this happen. It's easy to place the blame on parents, music, movies, video games, bullying, ect. But usually it seems to be something deeper. While the parents MAY be to blame, not necessarily for failing to realizing their children are going to kill people, but for what may simply be a failure at raising these kids properly.

Kid's are secretive by nature, whether they're good or bad, they like to be left alone, and most parents these days just chalk that up to "being teenagers" which is usually pretty accurate. Most parents will trust their kids to just let them be unless there's a reason to suspect something sinister is at work. Teenagers can hide things very well, also.

However, to get back to my initial point, placing blame is not always the best route to take, especially when it comes to teens and violence. There's a film that was released a couple of years ago called Elephant about a school shooting that's pretty much a recreation of Columbine. The filmmaker, instead of taking the easy way out by trying to pretend he knows why these events take place, he gave us no reasons, he didn't bullshit himself or the audience by pretending like there is some universal reason that these events take place. There isn't, and by showing this, in an honest fashion, pure, confusing, sad violence, without meaning or purpose, he made the most honest and truthful point anyone could ever make about these type of events - No one knows why they happen, no one knows the cause, and no one knows how to fix the problem. I think more people should watch this movie because it will expose how pointless it is to always try and look for blame, and find easy ways to fix it, when most of the time there is no simple or obvious answer.

Because AC, mine is the only experience that I have reference to in this case for one thing, and secondly because you keep asking if I searched their rooms etc. Make up your mind.

Originally posted by PVS
and you were wise to do so.
i was a good kid, never bugged anyone. but had enough fireworks in my room to start a war

Did you plan to start a war or hurt anyone and did you give your parents any reason to believe you'd hurt anyone?

I'm guessing from that same quote that the answer is no. In which case my point is yet again, proven.

No reason to search was there? Regardless of what you had, you gave your parents no reason to search your room because there was...well...no reason. If the kids in question put up a facade similar to how you actually were, then there was no reason for the kids rooms to be searched in the eyes of the parent.

Her claim of "Where the feck are the idiot parents?" is not necessary or applicable.

-AC

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Because AC, mine is the only experience that I have reference to in this case for one thing, and secondly because you keep asking if I searched their rooms etc. Make up your mind.

You applied it to the wrong part though. No mind to be made up.

You applied your experience to mine, where it has no place. I'm not applying mine to yours, just applying mine.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Did you plan to start a war or hurt anyone and did you give your parents any reason to believe you'd hurt anyone?

I'm guessing from that same quote that the answer is no. In which case my point is yet again, proven.
-AC

the point i was making ac is that a responsible parent monitors their kids, because kids are stupid. i was stupid, and though my mom might have ravaged my room beyond my knowledge, she just didnt search good enough to find my arsenal. your point is not proven at all.

of coarse i didnt want to hurt anyone, but guess what? i very well could have by accident, as is the case with most kids and families gettung hurt. its mostly a matter of accident. thus the need to check up on your kids.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
AC, because until you've BEEN a parent you are fairly clueless as to how that whole scenario operates now aren't you?

And I always knew what was going on UNDER my roof with my 2 oldest kids while they lived under my roof. I think the very fact that you have to use such gross and insulting comments like the latter proves you don't have what it takes to continue an adult conversation, therefore until someone comes along who can I'll be on my way. Have nice day now ya hear? And yes Lana they did actually.

How does it matter if one had kids or not. And to be honest that you say you knew everything that went on in your house when your kids were still there is a) most probably wrong and b) not even closely to proofable. Now if something went on in your house you didn't know you wouldn't exactly know aboot it or would you?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Her claim of "Where the feck are the idiot parents?" is not necessary or applicable.

-AC

I think I have the right to state what I felt at the time of the initial post. Whether you find it "necessary or applicable" has no bearing on my opinion. Ive come to the conclusion that you must orate to yourself while you debate, your posts are almost like self conversations. That must be great fun for you. At any rate, it's time for me to go cook lunch, have fun "proving" your points. And Bardok, I can assure you there wasnt a single inch of their bedrooms that I didnt know about it's just the way I was raised.

ill admit that blaming the parents is oversimplified. many more factors are involved in the choices of a young adult. (i dont say "teen" because they are in fact young adults who make their own choices). but we are all products of our upbringing. and though that is not the solitary factor in such a horrible decision, it certainy has a HUGE influence.

so you cant just blame the parents, fine. point taken.
but they certainly can have a big portion of the blame/

Shit likes this is happening more and more. Doesn't surprise me though, I mean, almost anyone can make a bomb if they put their mind to it.

Originally posted by PVS
the point i was making ac is that a responsible parent monitors their kids, because kids are stupid. i was stupid, and though my mom might have ravaged my room beyond my knowledge, she just didnt search good enough to find my arsenal. your point is not proven at all.

Yes, it is quite proven. By me and most importantly by you and JP.

Kids aren't always stupid just because you've claimed you were. Well, not all stupid to the degree that we all go out an want to do dumb and dangerous stuff. I for one was too afraid to go near anything dangerous.

Secondly, regardless of what you had in your room, you gave your mother and father no reason to search, so why would they have? They obviously trusted that you would never hurt anyone and you didn't (it would seem), nor did you intend to. So you're going by if's.

Originally posted by PVS
of coarse i didnt want to hurt anyone, but guess what? i very well could have by accident, as is the case with most kids and families gettung hurt. its mostly a matter of accident. thus the need to check up on your kids.

You're going off into some other area.

My point: Jedi Priestess was wrong to ask where the idiot parents were because it's not necessarily a case of idiot parenting is it? No.

Moreover, they were 17 and 15. There's more chance of them being able to slip things by their parents than ever at that age.

-AC

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I think I have the right to state what I felt at the time of the initial post. Whether you find it "necessary or applicable" has no bearing on my opinion. Ive come to the conclusion that you must orate to yourself while you debate, your posts are almost like self conversations. That must be great fun for you. At any rate, it's time for me to go cook lunch, have fun "proving" your points. And Bardok, I can assure you there wasnt a single inch of their bedrooms that I didnt know about it's just the way I was raised.

Where did I say you have no right to say that?

I just said you were wrong. So to paraphrase you: "Read before you reply to me."

Goodie. I have actually proven my point, regardless of whether you like it or not. It's not something I'm sitting here being proud of, it's just something that's happened. You're the one making some massive divafest over it.

-AC

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
And Bardok, I can assure you there wasnt a single inch of their bedrooms that I didnt know about it's just the way I was raised.

I'm sure there's a point to be extracted here. I shall leave the mining to others.

Precisely.

That suggests that this whole "good parenting" approach was handed down and taken up out of obligation rather than "This is the right course of parenting for me."

-AC

Originally posted by PVS
ill admit that blaming the parents is oversimplified. many more factors are involved in the choices of a young adult. (i dont say "teen" because they are in fact young adults who make their own choices). but we are all products of our upbringing. and though that is not the solitary factor in such a horrible decision, it certainy has a HUGE influence.

so you cant just blame the parents, fine. point taken.
but they certainly can have a big portion of the blame/

I agree that they do have a huge influence. But the thing is, I believe that raising a child is such a conmplex thing that to actually know wha is right for each individual is almost impossible. Now lets say Jedi Priestess is a great mother and her style worked awesome with her kids. Who can actually say that if she would bring up those two boys that they would turn out the same way? Maybe the parents behaved just like parents are expected to behave just thekids needed special treatment or were sop screwed up that exactly this usual behaviour of parents made them the way they are. You can't really blame parents if there kids are not the way society wants them. It's just unfair.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're going off into some other area.

My point: Jedi Priestess was wrong to ask where the idiot parents were because it's not necessarily a case of idiot parenting is it? No.

Moreover, they were 17 and 15. There's more chance of them being able to slip things by their parents than ever at that age.

-AC

its not some other area AC. please connect the dots.
responsible parenting involves simply KNOWING your kids.
and please listen: of coarse a parents knowing of their kids is
limited, since as kids mature, they become progressivly secretive
and even rebelious in nature, but i refuse to accept that a kid
would be lost enough to do murder simply due to a few bad
choices and influences in their recent lives. it makes no sense at all.
there is a certain degree of deviency in all kids, but to the level of
terrorism and murder? barring any mental disorders, thats ridiculous.

murderers are trained from the crib, or rather neglected from.

Coming into this debate rather late, just curious as to if anyone raised the issue regarding the circumstances that initiated this whole process with these kids.

It mentions that they were relocated for disciplinary reasons, but no reasons are mentioned. Were they also both relocated from one school to the new one together? If that is the case it seems they were just passed off to be somebody else's problem.

The parents may have no clue what their children were up to because the kids were 17 and 15, but I also doubt that the parents were really involved not to notice that something was going on in these kid's lives. Plus the parents were also responsible for teaching these kids how to equip themselves to exist in society where mass murder is not really an acceptable solution to a personal problem.

In the story it states:


What the heck was being done to them to push them over the edge where this seemed like a rational solution? Has the issue of the tormenting and bullying behaviour that runs rampant in north american schools been at all addressed since columbine?

I am not relieving these to kids (and I use that term lightly) of the responsibility of their actions or the actions that they planned and intended. What I am trying to get at is that in the big blame game that always seems to follow one of these events, there is enough sh*t to spread around where multiple parties should see themselves covered in it evenly.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Precisely.

That suggests that this whole "good parenting" approach was handed down and taken up out of obligation rather than "This is the right course of parenting for me."

-AC

Apparently if you dig at the wrong angle, you'll completely bypass the gold and land in the shit mine.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well, not all stupid to the degree that we all go out an want to do dumb and dangerous stuff. I for one was too afraid to go near anything dangerous.

hypocrisy. please take notice rather than offense, but you use your own experience to thwart my point, which you just declared to be an unsound debating tactic....right? i would dare to say that you were just an acceptionally good child.

That was my own point, not suggesting that it was the one you were referring to. Just that a point was extracted.

-AC

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
And Bardok, I can assure you there wasnt a single inch of their bedrooms that I didnt know about it's just the way I was raised.

What if they hid it in the garden, a hideout in the woods at a friends house in the cellar? Either you are The Flash and have enough time to search all your house all the time (simultaneously posting on 18 Forums) or you are not telling the truth. Oh and if you actually monitored your kids day 24/7 and searched there rooms so often to know where everything was at what given time I have to say your parenting might just not have been that good. Ever heard of a little thing called "trust"?

Originally posted by PVS
hypocrisy. please take notice rather than offense, but you use your own experience to thwart my point, which you just declared to be an unsound debating tactic....right? i would dare to say that you were just an acceptionally good child.

You are including me when you say kids are stupid. I was once a kid. I wasn't stupid just because you were. So no, no hypocricy there.

When it includes me, then I don't ask to be spoken for. JP applied her experience to mine, you over-generalised to a point that I was included. I'm just saying don't include me. If you wanna speak from experience, go for it. Don't apply yours to everyone else's.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That was my own point, not suggesting that it was the one you were referring to. Just that a point was extracted.



I just said this.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are including me when you say kids are stupid. I was once a kid. I wasn't stupid just because you were. So no, no hypocricy there.

When it includes me, then I don't ask to be spoken for. JP applied her experience to mine, you over-generalised to a point that I was included. I'm just saying don't include me. If you wanna speak from experience, go for it. Don't apply yours do everyone else's.

-AC


ok, so you're not going to argue that kids are stupid and need parents who participate in their lives to keep them straight? i hope not.

and the reason you were a good kid could perhaps be because your parents stayed one step ahead of you when you were in your developemental stages. you could be the product of good parenting, although you may wish to arrogantly believe that you were just inherantly wise

You can know your kids and what they're up to without searching every inch of their rooms with no cause, I hope you realize...

Originally posted by PVS
ok, so you're not going to argue that kids are stupid and need parents who participate in their lives to keep them straight? i hope not.

and the reason you were a good kid could perhaps be because your parents stayed one step ahead of you when you were in your developemental stages. you could be the product of good parenting, although you may wish to arrogantly believe that you were just inherantly wise

I wasn't restricted to the point that my life and childhood wasn't fun and I never gave my parents any reason to worry about anything because as previously stated, I was personally too afraid of messing around with fireworks and all that stuff.

I've said previously that I had great parents. That's exactly right. I don't considering the savage searching of your kids rooms with no reason, to be good parenting though. I consider it to be the manifestation of deep rooted fears of bad parenting.

My point was that JP was wrong to call them idiot parents because as we've both agreed, it's not necessarily a case of idiotic parenting. I've more than proven why I believe this and why this is the case.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I wasn't restricted to the point that my life and childhood wasn't fun and I never gave my parents any reason to worry about anything because as previously stated, I was personally too afraid of messing around with fireworks and all that stuff.

I've said previously that I had great parents. That's exactly right. I don't considering the savage searching of your kids rooms with no reason, to be good parenting though. I consider it to be the manifestation of deep rooted fears of bad parenting.

My point was that JP was wrong to call them idiot parents because as we've both agreed, it's not necessarily a case of idiotic parenting. I've more than proven why I believe this and why this is the case.

-AC

you had great parents. but what if you didnt. what if your parents never gave you the time of day? then it would be up to your immature and developing mind to form your own sense of right and wrong, and how you generally conduct yourself...basically who you are.

is it not possible that you could have been a murdering psyco given such a horrible circumstance?

in other words, i dont see the case of "idiotic parenting" but rather little or no parenting at all

Originally posted by PVS
you had great parents. but what if you didnt. what if your parents never gave you the time of day? then it would be up to your immature and developing mind to form your own sense of right and wrong, and how you generally conduct yourself...basically who you are.

is it not possible that you could have been a murdering psyco given such a horrible circumstance?

Of course it is, but where did I deny that parents are responsible for kids? You've gone way far off the tracks there, PVS.

It's not about "Can neglecting parents lead to bad kids?" It's about "In this case, are they idiot parents for what happened?".

The answer could very easily be no. At 17 I could have done what those kids did, despite my parents being great. It has nothing to do with asking if horrible circumstance leads to horrid people.

It's me trying and succeeding in proving that it's not necessarily a case of idiotic parenting here. As I believe we've agreed.

If someone can post a link that says these people were absolutely sucky parents, I'd be thankful. Until then, that's not necessarily the case.

-AC

Originally posted by PVS
you had great parents. but what if you didnt. what if your parents never gave you the time of day? then it would be up to your immature and developing mind to form your own sense of right and wrong, and how you generally conduct yourself...basically who you are.

is it not possible that you could have been a murdering psyco given such a horrible circumstance?

in other words, i dont see the case of "idiotic parenting" but rather little or no parenting at all

But "GoodParent" is just not an absolute term. What is good for oine kid might not be good for another. And for a parent to be lucky enough to hzave a kid that react on the classic types of parenting is not actually good parenting.

good parenting is simply that act of being active in the life of your kid.
rather more simply: not being vacant from your kids' lives and forcing them to raise themselves in the sense of morality and social conduct.

it has nothing to do with determining who your kids will be. thats up to them. but this does not including somehow spontainiously turning into a murderer. lets not split hairs to spite logic

My Mum's parents were of a different story.

Her Mother was the friendly, generous one whilst her Dad was strict and rather mean to her and her sister.

Once you become old enough, you make a choice. Bad parenting doesn't inherently lead to bad kids. My Mum could have gone one way, she chose to go the other. Which was for the better.

As said by Andrew Vachss:

"Evil is not a destiny, it is a decision. Most abused children do not grow up to be abusers, and most of those who do abuse themselves, rather than others. If we excuse the predator because he was abused as a child, we are degrading the heroism of those who were similarly abused, yet refused (remember, it is a choice) to imitate their oppressors."

It's a choice, once you reach a certain age. Saying or suggesting that it's not is degrading to those who choose to put the bad parenting/bad kids theory to bed by turning out alright.

-AC

Originally posted by PVS
good parenting is simply that act of being active in the life of your kid.
rather more simply: not being vacant from your kids' lives and forcing them to raise themselves in the sense of morality and social conduct.

it has nothing to do with determining who your kids will be. thats up to them. but this does not including somehow spontainiously turning into a murderer. lets not split hairs to spite logic
But for some kids exaxtly that might trigger anti-social behaviour. It's just not a black and white thing. At all.

if you refer to overbearing parents then you miss my point about mere presence in your kid's life. overbearing parents wish to shape who their kids will be, rather than sipmly keep them on the right path (not becoming a socially dysfunctional lunatic) of coarse nothing is black and white. but again why spite logic for the sake of the rare exception?

I think you've gone way off point here, to be honest.

I've made my point clear and accurate enough that it needs no more explaining hopefully. So I'll leave you and the ever optimistic Bardock to discuss parenting further.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I think you've gone way off point here, to be honest.

I've made my point clear and accurate enough that it needs no more explaining hopefully. So I'll leave you and the ever optimistic Bardock to discuss parenting further.

-AC

because you dont see it as the point, means little or nothing.
many here do, and thus the discussion on it. since when is your opinion
absolute fact?

Originally posted by PVS
if you refer to overbearing parents then you miss my point about mere presence in your kid's life. overbearing parents wish to shape who their kids will be, rather than sipmly keep them on the right path (not becoming a socially dysfunctional lunatic) of coarse nothing is black and white. but again why spite logic for the sake of the rare exception?

No, I am saying that keeping them ion the "ight" path is for some easier and for some harder...and for some impossible. But it's not only the fault of the parent. Humans are not born equal and the same circumstances won't make them similar. So it is not good parenting but luck to some extend (I don't say that there aren't perople who are more skilled to understand how an individual child has to be raised, but I think a "screwed up" child does not necessarily mean that the parents were bad.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
My point was that JP was wrong to call them idiot parents because as we've both agreed, it's not necessarily a case of idiotic parenting. I've more than proven why I believe this and why this is the case.

-AC

A person's opinion is never wrong. Only if they pass it off as fact without exception to that opinion. Which I never did.

Lana Im aware of that, but it doesnt diminish the fact that there were things I found out that as a parent I needed to know, by going through their rooms, that I otherwise would not have known. And Bardock, my kids have to earn my trust. If you go back in the thread you will see the 4 things I believe I owe my children and trust isnt one of them.

Originally posted by PVS
because you dont see it as the point, means little or nothing.
many here do, and thus the discussion on it. since when is your opinion
absolute fact?

I don't know, since when? News to me.

You've gone off point to what you began discussing with me. I've made my point as abundantly clear as I can. I know you comprehend it and you've even agreed to a certain extent. That which you and Bardock are discussing now is off point with regards to what you and I were relevantly discussing.

-AC

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
A person's opinion is never wrong. Only if they pass it off as fact without exception to that opinion. Which I never did.

Lana Im aware of that, but it doesnt diminish the fact that there were things I found out that as a parent I needed to know, by going through their rooms, that I otherwise would not have known. And Bardock, my kids have to earn my trust. If you go back in the thread you will see the 4 things I believe I owe my children and trust isnt one of them.

And a lot of people might say you are a bad parent for that. I won't, but you can't say that parents that actually trust there children when they ar eat the age of 17 are bad parents.

i accept that bardock. there are always extenuating circumstances. for example...an awkward kid (ugly, fat..whatever) may be somewhat doomed to a different set of social circumstances than their parents know how to handle. so perhaps they would not be prepared to help their kid, and thus are helpless.

in other words, sometimes a parent can simply not be an influence in their kid's life. not out of apathy, but rather an imposibility. fine

but the point is, most if not all these kids are not raised right. meaning they have no positive role models.

Nope Bardock, I am not the authority on who is a bad parent. All I have is my opinion of other parents.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Nope Bardock, I am not the authority on who is a bad parent. All I have is my opinion of other parents.

Oh well then. That's alright. I just see it differently.Originally posted by PVS
i accept that bardock. there are always extenuating circumstances. for example...an awkward kid (ugly, fat..whatever) may be somewhat doomed to a different set of social circumstances than their parents know how to handle. so perhaps they would not be prepared to help their kid, and thus are helpless.

in other words, sometimes a parent can simply not be an influence in their kid's life. not out of apathy, but rather an imposibility. fine

but the point is, most if not all these kids are not raised right. meaning they have no positive role models.

Well I wouldn't actually say that I know any statistic as to how many of "those" kids (just out of curiousity how many do you figure would be the number of "those" kids) have had "good" role models and how many didn't. But...well actually that's all i wanted to say.

I see what you are getting at PVS, I also see what point Bardock is trying to mkae as well. There was a case several years back about a kid, I think it was in the northwest part of the country who came from loving parents, who were involved and he still went off the deep end and shot people. That's why I said earlier there are always exceptions, however Bardock, the exception is just that and not the rule.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I see what you are getting at PVS, I also see what point Bardock is trying to mkae as well. There was a case several years back about a kid, I think it was in the northwest part of the country who came from loving parents, who were involved and he still went off the deep end and shot people. That's why I said earlier there are always exceptions, however Bardock, the exception is just that and not the rule.

I agree that those are the exeption, but that's exactly my point. What are people that plan mass-murders and store tons of guns in their Barbie Houses? Exeptions!

Oh well definitely they are the exception to your average kid to be sure.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Oh well definitely they are the exception to your average kid to be sure.

Right, and what I believe (and that is not based on anything factual just my own imagination) is that the amount of the exception A in the Group of Exception B is much higher, so even if it weere jkust 20% that are un-raisable in that group it is still a 1 to 5 chance that it's not the fault of the parents...

what? Sorry my brain hurts from jousting with Mr. Perfect for the last couple of hours. (which by the way he won, just so we all know that now ) Can you rephrase that?