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I don't get to visit the forums often. Off the top of my head I was just thinking who would win between these two.

She-Hulk in her normal version vs. Colossus.

Tough match but I think I go with She-Hulk.

What do you mean normal version?

Didn't she have some temporary power upgrade like when she beat Champion?

Originally posted by Dr.Crankenstein
Didn't she have some temporary power upgrade like when she beat Champion?

As far as we know it isnt temporary. A feature o fher powers something thats alwya sbeen stated in her bios is that she can increase her strength through training and that was something she continually worked on. Recently she trained in her human form and found the increase in strength when she changed to She hulk was exponential. I dont think its temporary to be honest that hasnt been indicated.

Her "normal" version is at least a notch up from Colossus in strength and toughness. Her more recent version is even moreso.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As far as we know it isnt temporary. A feature o fher powers something thats alwya sbeen stated in her bios is that she can increase her strength through training and that was something she continually worked on. Recently she trained in her human form and found the increase in strength when she changed to She hulk was exponential. I dont think its temporary to be honest that hasnt been indicated. Well either way she smashes his @ss then.

She has him beat in everything.

She would beat him silly, and he would like it.

Originally posted by Dr.Crankenstein
Well either way she smashes his @ss then.

She has him beat in everything.

Before her recent increase in strength Colossus was a bit stronger than her and slightly more durable. Now shes considerably stronger than him so she would win.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Before her recent increase in strength Colossus was a bit stronger than her and slightly more durable. Now shes considerably stronger than him so she would win.

Colossus was a Class 75+?

Originally posted by Melnorme
Colossus was a Class 75+? He is over 100 tons.

Originally posted by Melnorme
Colossus was a Class 75+?

No. Colossus for the last few years just prior to his pretend death was made a class 100 whilst she hulk was class 75 officially. She hulk had a recent upgrade making her a medium to high level class 100 making her considerably stronger than colossus

Originally posted by snoopdogg
He is over 100 tons.

What source is that?

Originally posted by Melnorme
What source is that?

Its the DK encyclopedia. Ive got it to. Its been used and debated here many times before so no need to question its credibility. Before her recent upgrade colossus was stronger than her. Now hes not.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its the DK encyclopedia. Ive got it to. Its been used and debated here many times before so no need to question its credibility. Before her recent upgrade colossus was stronger than her. Now hes not. Can you prove that?

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Can you prove that?

If i have to. But thats a lot of effort to prove Colossus was stronger than She hulk before her upgrade when the debates about current she hulk therefore making that point inconsequential.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Can you prove that?
Can you prove that the encyclopedia's accurate? Any examples in the comics of him training on 100 tons?

Originally posted by Melnorme
Can you prove that the encyclopedia's accurate? Any examples in the comics of him training on 100 tons?

Its an official source Mel. Its recognised and been used many times on this forum so as aforementioned Snoops use of it shouldnt be questioned

What is the full title of this official publication?

Originally posted by Melnorme
What is the full title of this official publication?

Google Dorling and Kinderley X-men and you'll come up with what you need.

To be honest this is a bit extreme and verging on obsessive. This debate is about current she hulk vs colossus. Why are you going to such lengths to try and discredit snoops source which shows that before her upgrade colossus was indeed stronger? Whats the relevance to this debate?

Originally posted by Melnorme
What is the full title of this official publication? I think it was called the "The Ultimate guide to the X-men"


Here is She-Hulk bio in the 2004 Avengers handbook.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/She-Hulkbio.jpg

Here is Colossus' bio from the 2005 X-men handbook.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossusbio.jpg

Note the durabilty differences.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Google Dorling and Kinderley X-men and you'll come up with what you need.

To be honest this is a bit extreme and verging on obsessive. This debate is about current she hulk vs colossus. Why are you going to such lengths to try and discredit snoops source which shows that before her upgrade colossus was indeed stronger? Whats the relevance to this debate?

I just wanted to know what he was talking about. Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I think it was called the "The Ultimate guide to the X-men"


Here is She-Hulk bio in the 2004 Avengers handbook.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/She-Hulkbio.jpg

Here is Colossus' bio from the 2005 X-men handbook.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossusbio.jpg

Note the durabilty differences.

I'm sorry, but those stats are generally so inconsistant (for example, Wolverine is rated as being as strong as Spiderman? Jubilee is as tough as Kingpin? Jim Rhodes is a better fighter than either Morlun or Thanos?!) that I really don't put much stock in them. I much prefer to see feats from the actual comic books.

Originally posted by Melnorme
I'm sorry, but those stats are generally so inconsistant (for example, Wolverine is rated as being as strong as Spiderman? Jubilee is as tough as Kingpin? Jim Rhodes is a better fighter than either Morlun or Thanos?!) that I really don't put much stock in them. I much prefer to see feats from the actual comic books. Somtimes you have to read between the lines.

Dude...Tony Stark's token black friend isn't a better fighter than Thanos...there's nothing to read into that!

colossus will win due to his training. He has been in the danger room, training in the most extreme circumstances. This will give him the win!

Originally posted by snoopdogg
He is over 100 tons. 100 tonse ? sure buddy. i think u need to look at his bio.

look at xmen # 370 colossus knocks the crap out hulk on that issue. and if he can do that to hulk then of course she hulk

First off, Cybermaster, Colossus never fought the REAL Hulk. That was a Skrull-Hulk. And yes, Colossus did stomp him verily.

Second...well...I was just going to say that Colossus would win. Better fighter, in my opinion just as strong (if not stronger), just as agile, just as quick, and far more durable. The only thing I see going for She-Hulk is her lawyer-like mind. And I don't see that as much of an advantage in this fight.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
First off, Cybermaster, Colossus never fought the REAL Hulk. That was a Skrull-Hulk. And yes, Colossus did stomp him verily.

Second...well...I was just going to say that Colossus would win. Better fighter, in my opinion just as strong (if not stronger), just as agile, just as quick, and far more durable. The only thing I see going for She-Hulk is her lawyer-like mind. And I don't see that as much of an advantage in this fight. i agree there alos that hes a much better fighter than she is. but she has won many herself also. sure that wasnt original hulk cause he looked like the orignal one to me when i 1st saw it

Needless to say, the fight will be epic.

Originally posted by cybermaster
i agree there alos that hes a much better fighter than she is. but she has won many herself also. sure that wasnt original hulk cause he looked like the orignal one to me when i 1st saw it your probably looking at those other 2 green character that kinda look like hulk on the next few pages after colossus knocks the crap out of him.

Why would he be a better fighter than she is? Seriously, since when was Colossus ranked a master in any type of martial art? He's gotten some training from Cyclops and Wolverine, sure, but I'd hardly suggest he's better than She-Hulk (who probably has gotten training from Captain America herself.)

The current She-Hulk would win this with no problem, and would probably have to hold back for fear of permanently damaging Colossus. You guys are thinking of the old version.

Isn't She-Hulk currently back to her old strength?

Handbooks aside you dont have feats of Colossus being in cl 100 group like Thor and the rest. Not even a notch below like Wonder Man.

Handbooks can always be labeled as "officials" they practically never meet what comics show. And the main source to discuss comic book characters are comics itself.

Old She hulk was in Thing`s league more or less (not top tier but not that far either). Right now (and to answer the last post- we dont know, nothing was shown yet to indicate if she lost the upgrade for good or not ) she would beat him confortably.

Good fight, She Hulk comes out on top though...


Of the fight. She wins the fight...

Originally posted by Metalmanx


Second...well...I was just going to say that Colossus would win. Better fighter, in my opinion just as strong (if not stronger), just as agile, just as quick, and far more durable. The only thing I see going for She-Hulk is her lawyer-like mind. And I don't see that as much of an advantage in this fight.

Colossus is around Thing level strength. He is a low level class 100 and as such She hulk is quite alot stronger than him.

He has her beat in terms of durability but then she has a healing factor.

She hulk is also a well trained fighter, trained by Captain America so theres no evidence that Colossus is considerably better than her in that area.

As it stands current she hulk wins imo but Colossus puts up a very good fight.

I think there should be a new option on the poll.

"After fighting for hours, they gradually become more and more attracted to each other. Suddenly, trapping her in a vicious bear-hug, Colossus kisses her passionately. She-Hulk, caught off guard, can't help but kiss back. One things leads to another...and the night ends with a demolished hotel room."

Yea. I'd vote for that option.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Colossus is around Thing level strength. He is a low level class 100 and as such She hulk is quite alot stronger than him.

He has her beat in terms of durability but then she has a healing factor.

She hulk is also a well trained fighter, trained by Captain America so theres no evidence that Colossus is considerably better than her in that area.

As it stands current she hulk wins imo but Colossus puts up a very good fight.

Opinion noted, and respected.

I just believe that Colossus has much more experience backing him than Shulkie does, both in fighting ability and in just plain use of abilities altogether. And to be honest, I find it rather difficult to properly gauge Colossus's strength, since he doesn't get anywhere near as many showings as say Thing and She Hulk now that she's on the Avengers. Not saying that Shulkie isn't uberly strong, I just believe that Colossus is up there, too, for he hasn't been shown to be anything less really. Especially when he's enraged, he almost pulls a Hulk and gets even more powerful.

Anyway, in my opinion, Colossus wins. But not after a loooong battle. In fact, I think this fight would be even closer than Colossus vs. Thing. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Opinion noted, and respected.

I just believe that Colossus has much more experience backing him than Shulkie does, both in fighting ability and in just plain use of abilities altogether. And to be honest, I find it rather difficult to properly gauge Colossus's strength, since he doesn't get anywhere near as many showings as say Thing and She Hulk now that she's on the Avengers. Not saying that Shulkie isn't uberly strong, I just believe that Colossus is up there, too, for he hasn't been shown to be anything less really. Especially when he's enraged, he almost pulls a Hulk and gets even more powerful.

Anyway, in my opinion, Colossus wins. But not after a loooong battle. In fact, I think this fight would be even closer than Colossus vs. Thing. Just my opinion.

Well colossus was weaker than both thing and she hulk when he started out and its not until recently that hes had a slight strength increase as a result of growing up which made him low level class 100. By its nature its not a dramatic increase and hasnt been shown to be so in the comics.

Thing has continually increased in strength as a result he is now low level class 100 as well.

She hulk while wearing her jupiter suit was shown to be at least twice as strong as Thing. Unless youre telling me a few years of growing up has made colossus over twice as strong as he was (which is the least he'd need to be to be on a par strength wise) then yes She hulk is considerably stronger than him.

Is Colossus a better fighter? Thats debatable. Theyre both trained by exceptional fighters however none of them are known for their fighting skills and its not something thats ever highlighted in their appearances. As such theyre on the same level in that respect which is also the view Marvel have taken. (Theyre both level 3)

Colossus can withstand higher temperatures than She hulk but then she has a healing factor that makes up for that.

Colossus has no clear cut advantage in any area. Theyre evenly matched in all but strength where going by recent accounts she considerably stronger.

She hulk wins.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well colossus was weaker than both thing and she hulk when he started out and its not until recently that hes had a slight strength increase as a result of growing up which made him low level class 100. By its nature its not a dramatic increase and hasnt been shown to be so in the comics.

Thing has continually increased in strength as a result he is now low level class 100 as well.

She hulk while wearing her jupiter suit was shown to be at least twice as strong as Thing. Unless youre telling me a few years of growing up has made colossus over twice as strong as he was (which is the least he'd need to be to be on a par strength wise) then yes She hulk is considerably stronger than him.

Is Colossus a better fighter? Thats debatable. Theyre both trained by exceptional fighters however none of them are known for their fighting skills and its not something thats ever highlighted in their appearances. As such theyre on the same level in that respect which is also the view Marvel have taken. (Theyre both level 3)

Colossus can withstand higher temperatures than She hulk but then she has a healing factor that makes up for that.

Colossus has no clear cut advantage in any area. Theyre evenly matched in all but strength where going by recent accounts she considerably stronger.

She hulk wins.

Actually Colossus first big upgrade is when the Xmen all "died" and moved to Australia. His had a few since. No X men, know Whirly

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Actually Colossus first big upgrade is when the Xmen all "died" and moved to Australia. His had a few since. No X men, know Whirly

Id love for you to prove it my friend because i actually have access to all Uncanny issues since 1975. Colossus has been officially class 70 up until his recent upgrade a few years back shortly after X-men 100 which was the return of Chris Claremont to X-men and the start of rogues short time as team leader.

KNOW who youre dealing with, dont talk waffle.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well colossus was weaker than both thing and she hulk when he started out and its not until recently that hes had a slight strength increase as a result of growing up which made him low level class 100. By its nature its not a dramatic increase and hasnt been shown to be so in the comics.

Thing has continually increased in strength as a result he is now low level class 100 as well.

She hulk while wearing her jupiter suit was shown to be at least twice as strong as Thing. Unless youre telling me a few years of growing up has made colossus over twice as strong as he was (which is the least he'd need to be to be on a par strength wise) then yes She hulk is considerably stronger than him.

Is Colossus a better fighter? Thats debatable. Theyre both trained by exceptional fighters however none of them are known for their fighting skills and its not something thats ever highlighted in their appearances. As such theyre on the same level in that respect which is also the view Marvel have taken. (Theyre both level 3)

Colossus can withstand higher temperatures than She hulk but then she has a healing factor that makes up for that.

Colossus has no clear cut advantage in any area. Theyre evenly matched in all but strength where going by recent accounts she considerably stronger.

She hulk wins.

I think Colosuss' clear cut advantages are his durability and experience actually.

I'd much rather have nigh-invulnerability than a healing factor in this kind of fight. Being invulnerable, there is no need for a healing factor. While She-Hulk can and will feel pain, Colossus' received pain (if any) will be drastically smaller than Shulkie's. It's not just temperatures that he's more durable against you know.

I really wish they'd give just one really good showing of strength on Colossus' part, just at least for the next few years, so we have something to go by.

And experience definitely goes a long way in a fight with such a similar opponent, wouldn't you say so? And Colossus has experience in spades, unlike Shulkie.

But again, I respect your opinion, not saying you're wrong or anything. This is just my opinion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Id love for you to prove it my friend because i actually have access to all Uncanny issues since 1975. Colossus has been officially class 70 up until his recent upgrade a few years back shortly after X-men 100 which was the return of Chris Claremont to X-men and the start of rogues short time as team leader.

KNOW who youre dealing with, dont talk waffle.

Read it - his energy is realligned and little nodes get straightened - only 1975 pfft
He comes back stronger after this, they keep commenting on how different he is - first thing he does is go and sort Sym out as I remember, if you have access you should know this.

No recent showings of strength? what about taking a full on sentinel blast and not flinching... or when they were trying to get into the danger room, and all those lasers were pounding him...

Originally posted by pr1983
No recent showings of strength? what about taking a full on sentinel blast and not flinching... or when they were trying to get into the danger room, and all those lasers were pounding him...

Thats durability PR, but I agree Colossus is tough and strong.

Originally posted by pr1983
No recent showings of strength? what about taking a full on sentinel blast and not flinching... or when they were trying to get into the danger room, and all those lasers were pounding him...

When was that? Was that in Astonishing? Cuz I don't read that.

Can you describe what happened a bit more? And possibly some issue numbers? I'd love to see that in action.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I think Colosuss' clear cut advantages are his durability actually and experience.

I'd much rather have nigh-invulnerability than a healing factor in this kind of fight. Being invulnerable, there is no need for a healing factor. While She-Hulk can and will feel pain, Colossus' received pain (if any) will be drastically smaller than Shulkie's. It's not just temperatures that he's more durable against you know.

I really wish they'd give just one really good showing of strength on Colossus' part, just at least for the next few years, so we have something to go by.

And experience definitely goes a long way in a fight with such a similar opponent, wouldn't you say so? And Colossus has experience in spades, unlike Shulkie.

But again, I respect your opinion, not saying you're wrong or anything. This is just my opinion.

Colossus' durability isnt a clear cut edge. He can withstand higher temperatures than her before he melts. He can also withstand higher temperatures than the hulk before hulks skin will start to blister (hulks limit is actually the same as she hulks 3000 degress fahrenheit) but then hulks healing factor deals with any damage his skin cant withstand. She hulks healing factor evens it up on the durability front.

Colossus started off in 1975 She hulk 1980 and theyve been going on ever since. She hulk often solo colossus as part of a team. Colossus doesnt necessarily have more experience than she hulk. Their fighting skills for the aforementioned reason are on par which is also Marvels view.

She hulk is quite alot stronger than colossus so she takes it.

Whirly, usually strength and durability are intertwined, i usually (by accident) substitute one for the other...

metalmanx, both were in astonishing, a sentinel attacked the mansion, and it fired at colossus and logan, colossus stood in front of logan and took the whole blast without so much as a stagger...

when the danger room achieved its own intelligence, it trapped shadowcat and the students inside, and was going to kill them... colossus went into the walls and was ripping circuitry out of the walls when the security system kicked in, firing lasers (that i'd heard were meant to stop gladiator), and he resisted longer than most would...

Yes she Hulk is stronger but not as durable, and weak Colossus has gone toe to toe with Gladiator.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Read it - his energy is realligned and little nodes get straightened - only 1975 pfft
He comes back stronger after this, they keep commenting on how different he is - first thing he does is go and sort Sym out as I remember, if you have access you should know this.



Where does it state that he received a strength upgrade?

It does NOT. You gave false in formation so please refrain from polluting this thread with your waffle.

Originally posted by pr1983
Whirly, usually strength and durability are intertwined, i usually (by accident) substitute one for the other...

metalmanx, both were in astonishing, a sentinel attacked the mansion, and it fired at colossus and logan, colossus stood in front of logan and took the whole blast without so much as a stagger...

when the danger room achieved its own intelligence, it trapped shadowcat and the students inside, and was going to kill them... colossus went into the walls and was ripping circuitry out of the walls when the security system kicked in, firing lasers (that i'd heard were meant to stop gladiator), and he resisted longer than most would...

I think Unus is a good example of how this is not always the case.

or wolverine whirly...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where does it state that he received a strength upgrade?

It does NOT. You gave false in formation so please refrain from polluting this thread with your waffle.

He got an upgrade in that issue. No pollution you were wrong again - reading the comics when they came out in continuity - before you were born or in kindergarden helps. Thats why you get it wrong....... probably.

Originally posted by pr1983
or wolverine whirly...

exactly

Has Colossus ever been done in by blunt trauma? We've seen She-Hulk messed up by it, but what about Peter?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
He got an upgrade in that issue. No pollution you were wrong again - reading the comics when they came out in continuity - before you were born or in kindergarden helps. Thats why you get it wrong....... probably.

When they came out was obviously the first and last time you read them which goes some way into explaining how utterly useless you are on all things X-related.

No strength upgrade as you claimed. I'll gladly post scans if you wish to continue this line of argument. Just say the word.

Originally posted by Demas
Has Colossus ever been done in by blunt trauma? We've seen She-Hulk messed up by it, but what about Peter?

Dealt with by blunt trauma? Indeed he has and can be. Im gathering scans now if need be.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just say the word.

"Word", I want to see it

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When they came out was obviously the first and last time you read them which goes some way into explaining how utterly useless you are on all things X-related.

No strength upgrade as you claimed. I'll gladly post scans if you wish to continue this line of argument. Just say the word.

Your scans usually leave lots out, they are not scans anyway they are copyright infringement, as you never buy comics only download. Anyway anyone who read that arc knows you're wrong.



have you read this site

http://www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosm...enix_force.html

Originally posted by Demas
Has Colossus ever been done in by blunt trauma? We've seen She-Hulk messed up by it, but what about Peter?

She lost to Sasquatch in Infinite Crusade #5

Edit: Nevermind I thought you asked has She-Hulk been done in by blunt trauma. Colossus gotten taken out by classic Jugz.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Colossus' durability isnt a clear cut edge. He can withstand higher temperatures than her before he melts. He can also withstand higher temperatures than the hulk before hulks skin will start to blister (hulks limit is actually the same as she hulks 3000 degress fahrenheit) but then hulks healing factor deals with any damage his skin cant withstand. She hulks healing factor evens it up on the durability front.

Colossus started off in 1975 She hulk 1980 and theyve been going on ever since. She hulk often solo colossus as part of a team. Colossus doesnt necessarily have more experience than she hulk. Their fighting skills for the aforementioned reason are on par which is also Marvels view.

She hulk is quite alot stronger than colossus so she takes it.

Huh. I didn't know being stronger than your opponent meant an automatic win.

I guess both Spiderman and Wolverine should've lost to a vast number of their much-stronger opponents then, eh?

Too bad it doesn't work that way. Stronger or not, Colossus has what it takes to defeat her. Namely nigh-invulnerabity (far better than a healing factor) and experience with fighting UBER-strong opponents, such as Juggernaut, Sasquatch, and Gladiator. Given his high degree of superhuman strength as well, he definitely has what it takes to defeat this superstrong Shulkie.

And we all know how accurate that Marvel scale is. Cuz Kingpin, Shadowcat, Sabretooth, and Shang Chi are COMPLETE equals in terms of fighting ability. And Punisher having better fighting skills than all four of them.

Yea.

I could keep going, there are many mistakes with this scale. But I think you get the point.

Anyway, I believe Colossus has exactly what it takes to bring She-Hulk down.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
She lost to Sasquatch in Infinite Crusade #5

Edit: Nevermind I thought you asked has She-Hulk been done in by blunt trauma. Colossus gotten taken out by classic Jugz.

Exactly. And that's not necessarily a bad thing to lose to Classic Juggernaut, as he could really beat just about anyone strength wise. He would've thrashed Shulkie much faster than he did Colossus.

But Colossus has also held his own and gone toe-to-toe with Juggy as well. And don't forget Sasquatch. Or Gladiator for that matter.

Gladiator would curbstomp Shulkie.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Huh. I didn't know being stronger than your opponent meant an automatic win.

I guess both Spiderman and Wolverine should've lost to a vast number of their much-stronger opponents then, eh?

Too bad it doesn't work that way. Stronger or not, Colossus has what it takes to defeat her. Namely nigh-invulnerabity (far better than a healing factor) and experience with fighting UBER-strong opponents, such as Juggernaut, Sasquatch, and Gladiator. Given his high degree of superhuman strength as well, he definitely has what it takes to defeat this superstrong Shulkie.

And we all know how accurate that Marvel scale is. Cuz Kingpin, Shadowcat, Sabretooth, and Shang Chi are COMPLETE equals in terms of fighting ability. And Punisher having better fighting skills than all three of them.

Yea.

I could keep going, there are many mistakes with this scale. But I think you get the point.

Anyway, I believe Colossus has exactly what it takes to bring She-Hulk down.


GS's arguments are usually very long in an attempt to hide the flaws in them
Its a major problem with him MMX

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Huh. I didn't know being stronger than your opponent meant an automatic win.

I guess both Spiderman and Wolverine should've lost to a vast number of their much-stronger opponents then, eh?

Too bad it doesn't work that way. Stronger or not, Colossus has what it takes to defeat her. Namely nigh-invulnerabity (far better than a healing factor) and experience with fighting UBER-strong opponents, such as Juggernaut, Sasquatch, and Gladiator. Given his high degree of superhuman strength as well, he definitely has what it takes to defeat this superstrong Shulkie.

And we all know how accurate that Marvel scale is. Cuz Kingpin, Shadowcat, Sabretooth, and Shang Chi are COMPLETE equals in terms of fighting ability. And Punisher having better fighting skills than all three of them.

Yea.

I could keep going, there are many mistakes with this scale. But I think you get the point.

Anyway, I believe Colossus has exactly what it takes to bring She-Hulk down.

What you dont seem to be acknowledging is the fact that she hulk has a high level of invulnerability as well, not quite on colossus' level but its up there. On top of that she has a healing factor which means that in the end she can take and recover from injuries which would leave colossus melted on the sidewalk.

Strength doesnt equal an automatic win but in a situation like this where the characters are so evenly matched in all areas but strength then it means that the one with the greater strength is likely to pull off more wins out of ten. In this case its she hulk.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
GS's arguments are usually very long in an attempt to hide the flaws in them
Its a major problem with him MMX

Awwww u luv me and you know it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What you dont seem to be acknowledging is the fact that she hulk has a high level of invulnerability as well, not quite on colossus' level but its up there. On top of that she has a healing factor which means that in the end she can take and recover from injuries which would leave colossus melted on the sidewalk.

Strength doesnt equal an automatic win but in a situation like this where the characters are so evenly matched in all areas but strength then it means that the one with the greater strength is likely to pull off more wins out of ten. In this case its she hulk.

Durability works as well "Rope a Dope"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What you dont seem to be acknowledging is the fact that she hulk has a high level of invulnerability as well, not quite on colossus' level but its up there. On top of that she has a healing factor which means that in the end she can take and recover from injuries which would leave colossus melted on the sidewalk.

Strength doesnt equal an automatic win but in a situation like this where the characters are so evenly matched in all areas but strength then it means that the one with the greater strength is likely to pull off more wins out of ten. In this case its she hulk.

...WTF?

Is She-Hulk going to melt Colossus down with her Super-heated plasma blasting superpower? Cuz to my knowledge, that's a new superpower of hers.

While we're at it, let's give Colossus some sort of a Radiation-projecting ability that'll turn Shulkie back into regular ol' Jennifer.

I think that'll make it fair.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Exactly. And that's not necessarily a bad thing to lose to Classic Juggernaut, as he could really beat just about anyone strength wise. He would've thrashed Shulkie much faster than he did Colossus.

But Colossus has also held his own and gone toe-to-toe with Juggy as well. And don't forget Sasquatch. Or Gladiator for that matter.

Gladiator would curbstomp Shulkie.

I agree, I'm one of the people who sticks up for Colossus

Errrr...don't want to be a dick, but Sasquatch was dominating him. He took his best shot and he didn't even move. No insult to him, since he was around 70 ton range at this time and classic Sasquatch has gone toe to toe with the Hulk. That's just a bad example, on the other hand Gladiator is a great one.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Durability works as well "Rope a Dope"

Colossus' only edge is in durability but then she hulk has a high level of durability plus a healing factor, making it pretty even in that department.

She is however considerably stronger than him. Probably twice as much. She pulls off more wins outta ten.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I agree, I'm one of the people who sticks up for Colossus

Errrr...don't want to be a dick, but Sasquatch was dominating him. He took his best shot and he didn't even move. No insult to him, since he was around 70 ton range at this time and classic Sasquatch has gone toe to toe with the Hulk. That's just a bad example, on the other hand Gladiator is a great one.

No no, don't get me wrong. I didn't say that Colossus beat him. I said he held his own and took his best shots for awhile even when he was just a teenager and not nearly as strong. I'm just saying that Colossus was in that league even when he first started out.

And yea, I thought the Gladiator one was the best example as well.

No worries, KM. You and I have always been cool.

BRING BACK A NEW SERIES OF ALPHA FLIGHT!

Originally posted by Metalmanx
...WTF?

Is She-Hulk going to melt Colossus down with her Super-heated plasma blasting superpower? Cuz to my knowledge, that's a new superpower of hers.

While we're at it, let's give Colossus some sort of a Radiation-projecting ability that'll turn Shulkie back into regular ol' Jennifer.

I think that'll make it fair.

Who said anything about that. Read posts properly. Youre saying Col has higher durability based on the fact that according to their bios he is given a higher temperature limit.

I said yeah ok she hulk will start feeling such an attack before colossus but while she will heal from such an attack colossus would reach his melting point and be left a pile of slag.

Do you see why youre above post is of little relevance now to my previous one?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Colossus' only edge is in durability but then she hulk has a high level of durability plus a healing factor, making it pretty even in that department.

She is however considerably stronger than him. Probably twice as much. She pulls off more wins outta ten.

I'm going to go out on a limb here...well, not really. You're speculating that her healing factor plus her durability equals Colossus'. I've accepted that Shulkie is stronger, cuz she is. But you're just speculating about the durability department.

I don't believe I'm alone in saying that it's a fact that:

Colosuss invulnerability>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Shulkie's healing factor and durability.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
No no, don't get me wrong. I didn't say that Colossus beat him. I said he held his own and took his best shots for awhile even when he was just a teenager and not nearly as strong. I'm just saying that Colossus was in that league even when he first started out.

And yea, I thought the Gladiator one was the best example as well.

No worries, KM. You and I have always been cool.

BRING BACK A NEW SERIES OF ALPHA FLIGHT!

Oh then I totally agree, Colossus by the end of the fight started to use his head and used Sasquatch's strength against him giving him a judo toss to the ground. As I said in other threads he is greatly underated.

I have the issue and I was really impressed by him in it.

Damn right, who else is there going to take care of the thousands of supermodels? Just us that's who.

Damn F'n right, and F Bendis

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Who said anything about that. Read posts properly. Youre saying Col has higher durability based on the fact that according to their bios he is given a higher temperature limit.

I said yeah ok she hulk will start feeling such an attack before colossus but while she will heal from such an attack colossus would reach his melting point and be left a pile of slag.

Do you see why youre above post is of little relevance now to my previous one?

No, not at all. In fact, now I'm more confused as to where this melting point is coming into play. You seem to assume that during their fight, Colossus will eventually start melting, while Shulkie will just blister and heal.

Are they fighting in the middle of a star achieving Super Nova?

Colossus' durability is not just based on temperature. But I'm sure you knew that already.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Oh then I totally agree, Colossus by the end of the fight started to use his head and used Sasquatch's strength against him giving him a judo toss to the ground. As I said in other threads he is greatly underated.

I have the issue and I was really impressed by him in it.

Damn right, who else is there going to take care of the thousands of supermodels? Just us that's who.

Damn F'n right, and F Bendis

Yea, that's what I was getting at. Stronger or not, Colossus knows how to fight opponents stronger than him, using their own strength against them. Judo is a good example of that. And that's when he was still fresh on the team, still a novice. With his fighting skills nowadays, he could pull all sorts of crazy moves used to incapacitate stronger foes.

By the way, I'm having another supermodel party at my place tonight. 8-ish or so. But it won't start without you, bro. Don't forget the marshmallows. I'll bring the chocolate sauce.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I'm going to go out on a limb here...well, not really. You're speculating that her healing factor plus her durability equals Colossus'. I've accepted that Shulkie is stronger, cuz she is. But you're just speculating about the durability department.

I don't believe I'm alone in saying that it's a fact that:

Colosuss invulnerability>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Shulkie's healing factor and durability.

Does having a higher melting point equate to being more durable? I didnt think it did. If thats not the case then youre also speculating that colossus is more durable. Diamond has a far higher melting point than adamantium yet adamantium can withstand more pressure.

She hulks skin starts blistering at 3000 degrees F. At 9000 degrees F Col starts melting.

She hulk has a healing factor which will take care of her injuries during the fight. Colossus does NOT.

She hulks durability plus her healing factor evens out the match on the durability front. She has the strength to totally obliterate him. He has the strength to hurt her and knock her out. But fortunately she has a healing factor and her vastly superior strength should see that she has the upper hand for the most part in their fights.

Besides pure durability, Colossus has the advantage of being a golem- a being composed of organic-steel- not subject to the pains and injuries related to having organs. Impale him and he doesn't bleed (energy leaks out), gas him and he doesn't breath, try to blind him and his steel eyes still see- defying all physics.

On the other hand She-Hulk is an organ-based being subject to the wounds and vulnerabilities of having said organs. We've seen that she can bruise, bloody, and break. Dirt thrown in her eyes would blind, gas or chokes would asphyxiate, hard blows to the chin cause shock to the brain and concussive effects, sonics or thunderclaps agitate or deafen her ears, she has pressure points and nerve clusters and tendons and muscles to attack and reduce function.

If the fight were to go on at length, I'm sure both could endure physically, but Jennifer would suffer from lack of mental toughness, particularly in her She-Hulk form- something, still of a valley girl used to everything coming easily to her and used to the abuse of her strength- compared to Colossus, who in current continuity, has been through several solid years of torture and solitary confinement, yet continually fought to maintain hope.

Under conditions where Jennifer is continually suffering, enduring pain, chokes & breaks (Peter is familiar with wrestling, often focused on using leverage to affect stronger opponents), bruises and concussions, whereas her opponent shows no outward signs of damage nor of giving up... I can see She-Hulk simply giving up, particularly if there's no moral support or purpose to the fight.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Does having a higher melting point equate to being more durable? I didnt think it did. If thats not the case then youre also speculating that colossus is more durable. Diamond has a far higher melting point than adamantium yet adamantium can withstand more pressure.

She hulks skin starts blistering at 3000 degrees F. At 9000 degrees F Col starts melting.

She hulk has a healing factor which will take care of her injuries during the fight. Colossus does NOT.

She hulks durability plus her healing factor evens out the match on the durability front. She has the strength to totally obliterate him. He has the strength to hurt her and knock her out. But fortunately she has a healing factor and her vastly superior strength should see that she has the upper hand for the most part in their fights.

Sigh. Alright.

Shulkie's healing factor would've already kicked in before 3000 degrees F, since the approaching temperatures would already be causing severe discomfort and pain. Her healing factor does not completely negate damage either. If the temperature continues to exceed to say...8999 degrees F, there is only so much she can handle. At those temperatures, she would be obliterated, even with said healing factor. Colossus would be fine, however. A bit hot though.

Again though, not too sure why you brought up temperatures. Colossus is durable and invulnerable to far more than just extremes in temperatures.

What are these so-called "injuries" that Colossus will be receiving without the aid of a Super Nova star on Shulki'e part?

Colossus has the strength, training, and skill necessary to hurt, damage, and knock out She-Hulk. While she possesses the ability to knock him out as well, he is far better equipped to do it both faster and more efficiently.

Originally posted by Demas
Besides pure durability, Colossus has the advantage of being a golem- a being composed of organic-steel- not subject to the pains and injuries related to having organs. Impale him and he doesn't bleed (energy leaks out), gas him and he doesn't breath, try to blind him and his steel eyes still see- defying all physics.

On the other hand She-Hulk is an organ-based being subject to the wounds and vulnerabilities of having said organs. We've seen that she can bruise, bloody, and break. Dirt thrown in her eyes would blind, gas or chokes would asphyxiate, hard blows to the chin cause shock to the brain and concussive effects, sonics or thunderclaps agitate or deafen her ears, she has pressure points and nerve clusters and tendons and muscles to attack and reduce function.

If the fight were to go on at length, I'm sure both could endure physically, but Jennifer would suffer from lack of mental toughness, particularly in her She-Hulk form- something, still of a valley girl used to everything coming easily to her and used to the abuse of her strength- compared to Colossus, who in current continuity, has been through several solid years of torture and solitary confinement, yet continually fought to maintain hope.

Under conditions where Jennifer is continually suffering, enduring pain, chokes & breaks (Peter is familiar with wrestling, often focused on using leverage to affect stronger opponents), bruises and concussions, whereas her opponent shows no outward signs of damage nor of giving up... I can see She-Hulk simply giving up, particularly if there's no moral support or purpose to the fight.

That's another good point that I was going to bring up myself if this debate continued much longer. That was all pretty much exactly what I was going to say. But you beat me to it. Kudos, Demas.

agreed

Originally posted by Metalmanx
When was that? Was that in Astonishing? Cuz I don't read that.

Can you describe what happened a bit more? And possibly some issue numbers? I'd love to see that in action. This scan actually shows some leaping skill of his own. He jumped straight up threw the steel barrier of the Danger Room.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossusleapin.jpg

Bad@ss durabilty here.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossuskickingss.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossuskickingss2.jpg

How much strength does it take to shred a Army Tank?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossussmashinatank.jpg

Here is Colossus taking out S'ym in Limbo

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/ColossusandSym.jpg

Workin in the construction bussiness I can tell you that Colossus was indeed holding up alot of weight here.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossusholdinahospital.jpg

Here is the pic you guys were looking for. Colossus took a straight on shot from a Sentinel with no problems.

Wolverine had to hide behind him.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Exactly. And that's not necessarily a bad thing to lose to Classic Juggernaut, as he could really beat just about anyone strength wise. He would've thrashed Shulkie much faster than he did Colossus.

But Colossus has also held his own and gone toe-to-toe with Juggy as well. And don't forget Sasquatch. Or Gladiator for that matter.

Gladiator would curbstomp Shulkie.

Uh...Except Shulkie beat the Champion without even getting a bruise. She would absolutely destroy Colossus.

Originally posted by Melnorme
Uh...Except Shulkie beat the Champion without even getting a bruise. She would absolutely destroy Colossus. Didn't Champion beat Drax, Gladiator, Silver Surfer prior to the fight between him and her?

If that's your logic then She-Hulk can beat Drax, Gladiator and Silver Surve also.

Champion fought the others at the same time or one on one?

Is that my logic? Actually, I'm forming a counterargument to MetalMan, who said that because Colossus could go toe-to-toe with Gladiator (a dubious claim) he can take down She-Hulk. Direct your comments towards MetalManX, and not towards me.

And, because you seem to have forgotten, Champion had an ace up his sleeve for those prior bouts. Jennifer out-lawyered him before she beat him down.

Originally posted by olympian
Champion fought the others at the same time or one on one?

One at a time, in a boxing match, while wearing the Infinity Gem of Power.

Originally posted by olympian
Champion fought the others at the same time or one on one? Right before the She-Hulk fight.

I could be mistaken though.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Right before the She-Hulk fight.

I could be mistaken though.

You are, there were at least several days in between their fights and her first bout, and then months until her second bout.

So he fought them ala boxing match one on one with the gem?

Did he fought She Hulk with the gem also? If so considering her win, in the writer`s mind she got stronger than all those one on one.

(not the three together tho).

Originally posted by olympian
So he fought them ala boxing match one on one with the gem?

Did he fought She Hulk with the gem also? If so considering her win, in the writer`s mind she got stronger than all those one on one.

(not the three together tho). I don't know the answer to those question. Either way it was crap. Champion should destroy here. He is now used as a plot device.

Same as her beating Herc in armwrestling and lifting Things max weight with one hand.

I have to see if i check the TP to see it.

The last part i dont mind that much. Considering she did had such an upgrade she should be able to do it.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I don't know the answer to those question. Either way it was crap. Champion should destroy here. He is now used as a plot device.

Same as her beating Herc in armwrestling and lifting Things max weight with one hand.

Yes...clearly all plot devices.

She-Hulk 9/10.

Originally posted by Melnorme
Yes...clearly all plot devices.

She-Hulk 9/10. If you think She-Hulk can beat Drax, Gladiator and Silver Surfer.

You better turn yourself into the Asylum and throw away the keys.

Originally posted by olympian
So he fought them ala boxing match one on one with the gem?

Did he fought She Hulk with the gem also? If so considering her win, in the writer`s mind she got stronger than all those one on one.

(not the three together tho).

No, She-Hulk "filed a motion" to have the Gem barred from the fight because it was considered an "outside weapon", and those aren't allowed in a boxing match. She also made Champ vow that, if he lost to her, he would never wear the gem again. He was pretty confident that he would stomp her, so he agreed, and got his head mashed in.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
If you think She-Hulk can beat Drax, Gladiator and Silver Surfer.

You better turn yourself into the Asylum and throw away the keys.

Straw man argument. I claimed no such thing.

I'm merely pointing out that she could pound Colossus into paste. This might even be a 10/10.

Mel, can you please tell me what straw man means? Ive seen you use it soo many times, but have no idea what it means.

Originally posted by Melnorme
Straw man argument. I claimed no such thing.

I'm merely pointing out that she could pound Colossus into paste. This might even be a 10/10. Do you honestly believe She-Hulk beating Champion is logical?

If you do then please take my advice.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Mel, can you please tell me what straw man means? Ive seen you use it soo many times, but have no idea what it means.

PM'ed you.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Do you honestly believe She-Hulk beating Champion is logical?

If you do then please take my advice.

She's significantly more powerful than you seem to realize. Which is understandable, because apparently you didn't read that series.

Yea, basically anyone would lose against Champion with the gem.

Without the gem, he wasn't nearly as strong as he was before, and She-Hulk had been training for a looong time to exponentially increase her strength.

Anyway, that aside, Colossus still beats her 7/10.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Yea, basically anyone would lose against Champion with the gem.

Without the gem, he wasn't nearly as strong as he was before, and She-Hulk had been training for a looong time to exponentially increase her strength.

Anyway, that aside, Colossus still beats her 7/10. right and like i said before if colossus can knock the crap out of hulk then of course she hulk as well. and yes that is the original hulk from xmen 370 i looked it up

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Yea, basically anyone would lose against Champion with the gem.

Without the gem, he wasn't nearly as strong as he was before, and She-Hulk had been training for a looong time to exponentially increase her strength.

Anyway, that aside, She-Hulk beats him 9/10.

You had a typo in there. I fixed it for you.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I think there should be a new option on the poll.

"After fighting for hours, they gradually become more and more attracted to each other. Suddenly, trapping her in a vicious bear-hug, Colossus kisses her passionately. She-Hulk, caught off guard, can't help but kiss back. One things leads to another...and the night ends with a demolished hotel room."

Yea. I'd vote for that option.



Dude... I'm sure that she's not going to try to convert him or switch him...

Most women DO have GAYdar you know...

Too bad he's only gay in Ultimate X-men. And yet, even more hardcore. Go figure.

He still wins, gay or straight.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Too bad he's only gay in Ultimate X-men. And yet, even more hardcore. Go figure.

He still wins, gay or straight.

Obviously the guy with a name like "MetalMan" and a Colossus sig is going to claim that his boy will win.

Unfortunately, if you've read enough issues of both characters, you can see that this simply isn't the case.

Originally posted by Melnorme
She's significantly more powerful than you seem to realize. Which is understandable, because apparently you didn't read that series.

I read it. She trained for...what was it, two weeks?

And beat up an guy who has trained for thirteen billion years.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I read it. She trained for...what was it, two weeks?

And beat up an guy who has trained for thirteen billion years.

Three months. And, yes. She sure did. So much so, in fact, that he didn't appear to lay a glove on her, several times when she struck him it created so much kinetic energy that there was a visible explosion, and left him bloodied and beaten at the end.

And she would very likely do the same to Colossus.

Originally posted by Melnorme
Three months. And, yes. She sure did. So much so, in fact, that he didn't appear to lay a glove on her, several times when she struck him it created so much kinetic energy that there was a visible explosion, and left him bloodied and beaten at the end.



Three months...versus thirteen billion years. Champion also (I suppose) had Power Primordial. I think that sounds like a case of:



Stats of Power Primordial:

Originally posted by Melnorme
Obviously the guy with a name like "MetalMan" and a Colossus sig is going to claim that his boy will win.

Unfortunately, if you've read enough issues of both characters, you can see that this simply isn't the case.

If you think I'm biased, than that's your opinion. I know when Colossus is beat, and I own up to it. But this just isn't one of those times.

As Dark Crawler already mentioned, that victory over Champion was the biggest load of crap, and one of the very worst actions in comics, in my opinion.

Even without the gem, Champion should've curbstomped her the same way he did before.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Three months...versus thirteen billion years.
Sounds like an assumption of quantity over quality. Does Champion have an alternate form wherein his powers increase exponentially? Didn't Champion previously have throw-downs with guys like the Thing? Wouldn't that mean that, a priori, we know that his much-vaunted 13 billion years of training left him somewhere within reach of someone with training many orders of magnitude less lengthy? Wouldn't that make your whole argument a red herring?

Those are rhetorical questions, by the way. The answers are: no, yes, yes, and yes.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Champion also (I suppose) had Power Primordial. I think that sounds like a case of:
This is not the case. As stated before, Champion for all his so-called "power primordial" abilities is still rated in the same category as a high 100-Tonner. She-Hulk surpassed his strength and beat him silly. You call it stupidity, but offer up no reason why except for rehashing some 60's wankage definition of what the "power primordial" is supposed to be. We judge things by what they do, not by how flowery their descriptions are.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
If you think I'm biased, than that's your opinion. I know when Colossus is beat, and I own up to it. But this just isn't one of those times.

As Dark Crawler already mentioned, that victory over Champion was the biggest load of crap, and one of the very worst actions in comics, in my opinion.

Even without the gem, Champion should've curbstomped her the same way he did before.

So, rather than own up to the canon fact that She-Hulk beat Champion in a well-written fight, you're going to dismiss it out of hand?

That's not convincing anyone except yourself.

Originally posted by Melnorme
Sounds like an assumption of quantity over quality. Does Champion have an alternate form wherein his powers increase exponentially? Didn't Champion previously have throw-downs with guys like the Thing? Wouldn't that mean that, a priori, we know that his much-vaunted 13 billion years of training left him somewhere within reach of someone with training many orders of magnitude less lengthy? Wouldn't that make your whole argument a red herring?

Those are rhetorical questions, by the way. The answers are: no, yes, yes, and yes.

I've never seen Champion fighting Thing. Have to get that issue...

No, actually it's quality over lesser quality. I believe that a being that has had billions of years to perfect himself in arts of fighting, would have achieved better quality in fighting then someone who trains for three months, even if it is with the best.

Originally posted by Melnorme
This is not the case. As stated before, Champion for all his so-called "power primordial" abilities is still rated in the same category as a high 100-Tonner. She-Hulk surpassed his strength and beat him silly. You call it stupidity, but offer up no reason why except for rehashing some 60's wankage definition of what the "power primordial" is supposed to be. We judge things by what they do, not by how flowery their descriptions are.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I've never seen Champion fighting Thing. Have to get that issue...

No, actually it's quality over lesser quality. I believe that a being that has had billions of years to perfect himself in arts of fighting, would have achieved better quality in fighting then someone who trains for three months, even if it is with the best.

Years is a measure of time, hence quantity. You are measuring quantity as opposed to quality. Champion does not have an alternate form that allows him to benefit from exponential gains from training, and wasn't coached by Gladiator, Silver Surfer, Drax, and Gamora. You don't even address these points. You just copy-paste wikipedia instead of looking at the facts. I've read that article too, before you reposted it in fact. I'm not terribly impressed by some fan's definition of what Champion did in the 60's. In the 21st century, he got beat down.

Originally posted by Melnorme
Years is a measure of time, hence quantity. You are measuring quantity as opposed to quality. Champion does not have an alternate form that allows him to benefit from exponential gains from training, and wasn't coached by Gladiator, Silver Surfer, Drax, and Gamora. You don't even address these points. You just copy-paste wikipedia instead of looking at the facts. I've read that article too, before you reposted it in fact. I'm not terribly impressed by some fan's definition of what Champion did in the 60's. In the 21st century, he got beat down.

But if he was able to do so in sixties, why not in 21st? Was he powered down? So in three months, Silver Surfer (he is master of fighting?), Gladiator (same), Drax (he as never been master of fighting to my recall) and Gamora (Only one with exeptional fighting skills, are able to deliver training that equals billions of years of constant fighting? Billions of years of perfecting to be a...perfect fighting machine? Billions of years of channeling the Power Primordial to reflexes, speed, strenght and durability?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But if he was able to do so in sixties, why not in 21st? Was he powered down?

Why was Tyson a monger at 20, but a chump at 30? Perhaps Champion has been boozing it up a bit? Maybe he got too used to the edge given him from wearing the Gem of Power constantly for years? Maybe the constraints of the rules of boxing didn't allow him to capitalize on all his skills? Maybe he really underestimated Jennifer given their first bout?

I'll concede that you're right...under the rules of these forums, Champion would certainly win a majority, but even with bloodlust and no PIS, I think it would be a slim majority. The writers were definitely trying to convey one thought: Jennifer is much stronger than she used to be. It's shown in every panel they draw of her from that point out: she's ripped, even for a She-Hulk. When she returns to Earth, she's so powerful that she needs to see Reed Richards to figure out a way to contain her new might. Even while wearing a strength-limiting "Jupiter Suit", she's lifting the Thing's heaviest 100-ton training weight with one hand and shows no signs of strain.

Bottom Line: She's a very serious powerhouse right now. Colossus has a slight edge in toughness...maybe...but Jennifer is many times stronger than he is, and a well-trained fighter as well. Colossus wouldn't stand a chance.

I still find this as speculation, seeing as 616 Coloussus really hasn't shown any sort of super-powered strength feat in the past few years. We don't truly know how strong 616 Colossus is right now.

Colosuss' durability far exceeds hers. That's really not up for debate, it's just fact.

And I'd estimate their fighting skills to be about even, seeing as how Colossus has been trained by both Cyclops and Wolverine (as well as the Danger room for most of his life), and Shulkie has been trained by Cap.

Given She-Hulk is a comedy series, with past volumes breaking the 4th wall, it's not as contrained to logic or continunity (I can think of 2 or 3 gags that contradict regular continuity- I haven't read it in months, there's probably more). It's somewhat akin to taking Plastic Man's solo series as serious examples of feats (where he literally exhibits Toon Force abilities). I considered the events more a tribute to boxing fiction conventions (training montage, etc.) than a serious display of ability.

Absent regularly occuring feats within her own book or feats in "normal" continuity, I'd be hard pressed to say that is her current strength. If we take her Marvel-Team Up/Marvel Holiday Special 2005 showings, her most recent, then she's been significantly depowered since then. This suggest Marvel's editors don't consider She-Hulk nearly as powerful as her solo series suggested when in regular continunity with other Marvel characters.

If we just take her normal continuity there's an argument for her depowering too. First, it's based on her conditioning as Jen, but during the downtime at the firm she's been lazy, partying, and sleeping with her boyfriend... the only evidence of conditioning is jogging which she did even before her power-up. Further there's her powerup device which she used because her boyfriend disapproves of She-Hulk... if she's anything like her cousin, her emotions can effect her Hulk-state. Jen typically feels empowered by She-Hulk, but now she's borderline ashamed of her.

Regardless, if you want to stick to most recent showings, She-Hulk struggled with a mutant tree that was bound up by Spider-Man's webbing. She seems to have reverted to her traditional strength level.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I still find this as speculation, seeing as 616 Coloussus really hasn't shown any sort of super-powered strength feat in the past few years. We don't truly know how strong 616 Colossus is right now.

I don't agree with this line of thought. It's bordering on an appeal to ignorance. Though, I too find it disappointing that there aren't many 100-ton feats to reinforce your claims as to Colossus's strength. Personally, as I've stated, I was under the impression that he was a notch just below the hundred tonners, but I'll take you at your word.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Colosuss' durability far exceeds hers. That's really not up for debate, it's just fact.
I'm not sure how much "far" is. Certainly, in my opinion, they are comparable within an area of less than 30% variance (or in other words, if She-Hulk is arbitrarily a "10" in Durability, Colossus is not better than a "13" on that same scale...do you disagree?) If that is the case, then her Strength far exceeds his by no less than a factor of 2 (or in other words, if She-Hulk is a "10" Colossus is less than a "5" on the same scale). Clearly, her Strength makes up for this difference in toughness. I'll also note that, as was observed by another poster in this thread, Strength and Toughness tend to go hand-in-hand in comic books, so as her Strength has upgraded, so too should her durability. And also, as has been mentioned, she does have a "healing factor".

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And I'd estimate their fighting skills to be about even, seeing as how Colossus has been trained by both Cyclops and Wolverine (as well as the Danger room for most of his life), and Shulkie has been trained by Cap.
This I agree with. I think many people underestimate Jen's fighting prowess. She knows what she's doing...she's been a member of the FF and the Avengers, and has been trained by some of the best. Colossus is obviously also very skilled, but I also think they are comparable in skill.

Also, I'd like to apologize for implying that your opinion shouldn't count due to bias. That wasn't fair on my part. You can certainly have a favorite character, and still be balanced in your opinions. I'm right with you in thinking Colossus is a fantastic character (one of my favorites...I wept when he "died" awhile ago). I just need to show you why I think She-Hulk would take the majority. And of course, you're welcome to change my mind as well.

Originally posted by Demas
Given She-Hulk is a comedy series, with past volumes breaking the 4th wall, it's not as contrained to logic or continunity (I can think of 2 or 3 gags that contradict regular continuity- I haven't read it in months, there's probably more). It's somewhat akin to taking Plastic Man's solo series as serious examples of feats (where he literally exhibits Toon Force abilities). I considered the events more a tribute to boxing fiction conventions (training montage, etc.) than a serious display of ability.

Absent regularly occuring feats within her own book or feats in "normal" continuity, I'd be hard pressed to say that is her current strength. If we take her Marvel-Team Up/Marvel Holiday Special 2005 showings, her most recent, then she's been significantly depowered since then. This suggest Marvel's editors don't consider She-Hulk nearly as powerful as her solo series suggested when in regular continunity with other Marvel characters.

If we just take her normal continuity there's an argument for her depowering too. First, it's based on her conditioning as Jen, but during the downtime at the firm she's been lazy, partying, and sleeping with her boyfriend... the only evidence of conditioning is jogging which she did even before her power-up. Further there's her powerup device which she used because her boyfriend disapproves of She-Hulk... if she's anything like her cousin, her emotions can effect her Hulk-state. Jen typically feels empowered by She-Hulk, but now she's borderline ashamed of her.

Regardless, if you want to stick to most recent showings, She-Hulk struggled with a mutant tree that was bound up by Spider-Man's webbing. She seems to have reverted to her traditional strength level.

I'm not sure how accurate that is. Jen's been upgraded several times in her continuity, and has never "slipped" backwards in power. Just because they don't show her pumping iron in the 20-someodd pages of a book, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The rest of it, about Byrne's series etc. Well, Byrne isn't writing these, and I don't think the tone of a book sets its canonicity.

Colossus, by far...the better fighter, the greater strengh plus he has that sinister side...that makes him a dangerous opponent for "Jan"
all she has in mind is where to get the next bedmate...that saucy wench......

Originally posted by RogerRamjet
Colossus, by far...the better fighter, the greater strengh plus he has that sinister side...that makes him a dangerous opponent for "Jan"
all she has in mind is where to get the next bedmate...that saucy wench......

Her name is "Jen", not "Jan".

You, sir, know nothing!

Originally posted by RogerRamjet
Colossus, by far...the better fighter, the greater strengh plus he has that sinister side...that makes him a dangerous opponent for "Jan"
all she has in mind is where to get the next bedmate...that saucy wench......

I guess this is your first post to KMC Versus forums?

(We really need to make a information center for new guys/gals)

For the life of me I can't remember the last time Colossus hit someone so hard that it did this...

Originally posted by Melnorme
For the life of me I can't remember the last time Colossus hit someone so hard that it did this...

Pfft. Tame.

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2563/incrediblehulk118187ji.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3936/incrediblehulk118195ly.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9269/incrediblehulk118200el.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4384/incrediblehulk118211kg.jpg

Neither of those looks like Colossus.

And, actually, I'd say causing the air around you to ignite with the force of a blow is a little more impressive than making a little splash.

And finally, that wasn't just Namor...it was the Hulk, too. Shulkie did that on her little ol' lonesome.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I guess this is your first post to KMC Versus forums?

(We really need to make a information center for new guys/gals)

ah...no actually it isn't...just look up my "backpages"

and what information can be retrieved there? that every opinion which differs from the ones who post here more often, is wrong?

is there something i need to look up or something?

Originally posted by RogerRamjet
ah...no actually it isn't...just look up my "backpages"

and what information can be retrieved there? that every opinion which differs from the ones who post here more often, is wrong?

is there something i need to look up or something?

If you had read up more often here, you would know that She-Hulk has had an strength upgrade. You could ask if She-Hulk has gained any more strenght lately or is she still at Class 85 levels...

Originally posted by Melnorme
Neither of those looks like Colossus.

And, actually, I'd say causing the air around you to ignite with the force of a blow is a little more impressive than making a little splash.

And finally, that wasn't just Namor...it was the Hulk, too. Shulkie did that on her little ol' lonesome.

Yeah, but don't forget that Namor made about half of that force.

In my opinion, causing an tsunami that topples supertankers is more impressive.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yeah, but don't forget that Namor made about half of that force.

In my opinion, causing an tsunami that topples supertankers is more impressive.

Well...whatev. Jen's stronger than Namor as well.

Namor would still defeat her.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Namor would still defeat her.

Probably, but it would be a narrow margin.

But back to the topic at hand...I might have to revise my opinion on her fighting skill. She may in fact have a few moves that Colossus can't handle. I totally forgot about this scene...

Originally posted by Melnorme
Probably, but it would be a narrow margin.


There was an thread for that, if you wish to discuss more...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=377494

Originally posted by Melnorme

But back to the topic at hand...I might have to revise my opinion on her fighting skill. She may in fact have a few moves that Colossus can't handle. I totally forgot about this scene...

And likewise, wouldn't Colossus have some moves that she wouldn't know? They hardly recieved the same training...I think Colossus has been also doing this longer, he started as an teenager, and isn't he like close to 30 now? I mean in comic book age, chronologically he would be about 45...

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And likewise, wouldn't Colossus have some moves that she wouldn't know? They hardly recieved the same training...I think Colossus has been also doing this longer, he started as an teenager, and isn't he like close to 30 now? I mean in comic book age, chronologically he would be about 45...
I'm not talking about moves that he doesn't know, I'm talking about possibly being on a higher level of skill than him. Captain America himself noted that he wasn't capable of pulling off the sort of thing that Jennifer did to those thugs, and asked how she did it. She credited her time training with Gamora, so it's quite possible that, at this point, she is in fact a better fighter than Colossus is...in addition to being more than twice as strong.

Originally posted by Melnorme
But back to the topic at hand...I might have to revise my opinion on her fighting skill. She may in fact have a few moves that Colossus can't handle. I totally forgot about this scene...

Haha, I didn't, but I honestly didn't consider it relevant. Sort of akin to claiming Savage Hulk is a brilliant scientific mind in the field of gamma radiation. She-Hulk is her own self-induced character stupidity- like a recklessness that doesn't care if reality folds up on itself because she messes with the time continuum- even if Jen knows the moves, She-Hulk is unlikely to use them... and even possibly can't, much of martial arts is muscle memory which we can't garantee carries over to her body shifting by some feet and several hundred pounds.

Regarding book tone... I don't think I take the GLA or New Warriors 100% as continunity... regardless, I'm certainly not saying She-Hulk is weak by any means, but until I see more feats I'm not going to consider her as powerful as the previous volumes boxing match and certainly her appearances in other books suggest those writers/editors don't consider her as powerful.

Originally posted by Demas
Haha, I didn't, but I honestly didn't consider it relevant. Sort of akin to claiming Savage Hulk is a brilliant scientific mind in the field of gamma radiation. She-Hulk is her own self-induced character stupidity- like a recklessness that doesn't care if reality folds up on itself because she messes with the time continuum- even if Jen knows the moves, She-Hulk is unlikely to use them... and even possibly can't, much of martial arts is muscle memory which we can't garantee carries over to her body shifting by some feet and several hundred pounds.

Highly speculative. She knows the moves, and knows how to fight. She's used to switching back and forth...it didn't seem to present a problem vs Champion, so I don't know where you're getting this from. On the same token, why don't you propose limiting Colossus in the same way? At least Jen's still made of flesh and bone...Colossus can't even feel, or smell, or presumably see and hear the same way he does 90% of the rest of the time. Why doesn't that completely screw up his abilities?

Originally posted by Demas
Regarding book tone... I don't think I take the GLA or New Warriors 100% as continunity... regardless, I'm certainly not saying She-Hulk is weak by any means, but until I see more feats I'm not going to consider her as powerful as the previous volumes boxing match and certainly her appearances in other books suggest those writers/editors don't consider her as powerful.
Well, that's a problem with switching writers. Not everyone is aware of what's going on in other books. Take a look at "The Other" currently underway in Spider-Man. In one issue, Morlun snaps MJ's wrist at the hospital. Next ish, different writer, and less than an hour has passed, and MJ's arm is no longer in a sling. So, do we conclude that MJ has a mutant healing factor from that, or just chalk it up to a lack of communication?

I'm going with the latter.

Originally posted by Melnorme
She's significantly more powerful than you seem to realize. Which is understandable, because apparently you didn't read that series. Like 80% of the fans I did not.

At my LCS today I picked up the issue where she fought Champion. The artist made him look like a 90 year old man. The whole story seemed more like a joke.

But that's my opinion.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Like 80% of the fans I did not.

At my LCS today I picked up the issue where she fought Champion. The artist made him look like a 90 year old man. The whole story seemed more like a joke.

But that's my opinion.

The artist has an unusual style. His style of drawing faces is sort of cartoony, but I kind of like it. Anyway, the story was humorous, to be sure, but it happened in continuity.

Originally posted by Melnorme
I don't agree with this line of thought. It's bordering on an appeal to ignorance. Though, I too find it disappointing that there aren't many 100-ton feats to reinforce your claims as to Colossus's strength. Personally, as I've stated, I was under the impression that he was a notch just below the hundred tonners, but I'll take you at your word.


I'm not sure how much "far" is. Certainly, in my opinion, they are comparable within an area of less than 30% variance (or in other words, if She-Hulk is arbitrarily a "10" in Durability, Colossus is not better than a "13" on that same scale...do you disagree?) If that is the case, then her Strength far exceeds his by no less than a factor of 2 (or in other words, if She-Hulk is a "10" Colossus is less than a "5" on the same scale). Clearly, her Strength makes up for this difference in toughness. I'll also note that, as was observed by another poster in this thread, Strength and Toughness tend to go hand-in-hand in comic books, so as her Strength has upgraded, so too should her durability. And also, as has been mentioned, she does have a "healing factor".


This I agree with. I think many people underestimate Jen's fighting prowess. She knows what she's doing...she's been a member of the FF and the Avengers, and has been trained by some of the best. Colossus is obviously also very skilled, but I also think they are comparable in skill.

Also, I'd like to apologize for implying that your opinion shouldn't count due to bias. That wasn't fair on my part. You can certainly have a favorite character, and still be balanced in your opinions. I'm right with you in thinking Colossus is a fantastic character (one of my favorites...I wept when he "died" awhile ago). I just need to show you why I think She-Hulk would take the majority. And of course, you're welcome to change my mind as well.

It's cool. No worries. Don't get me wrong. I like She-Hulk. I think she's a very interesting character.

And I don't mind when I'm wrong, nor am I afraid to admit when the character I'm supporting loses. It happens.

But I just feel that Colossus brings more to the table than She-Hulk.

For one, being nearly impervious to harm. Nigh-invulnerability if you will. He's composed of an unknown, INCREDIBLY durable metal (which seems to be second to adamantium from the comic evidence). This means he doesn't have nerves, skin, or even bones to break. It's the nature of his power. While Jen does have a healing factor and a certain level of durability, I just haven't seen it to be in comparison to Colossus'. It should be noted that Colossus, too, has a healing factor. As well as the ability to increase his strength with rade, as has been shown before when he's become enraged. Not as noticably as the Hulk, no, but still quite apparent.

And is She-Hulk literally twice as strong? I don't doubt her being uber strong, but I do feel that it might be speculation on everyone's part (including my own really) to say that, since 616 Colossus really hasn't had any sort of super-strength feat in the past several years that I can think of. So really, it's just kind of hard to compare the two levels of strength without some sort of evidence on Colossus' part.

Endurance could also play a very key role in this match. Since Shulkie is still flesh and blood, although green, she still eventually tires and becomes fatigued. Eventually of course. While Colossus, on the other hand, doesn't fatigue at all when transformed, wielding seemingly limitless stamina. That could prove quite useful as well.

It seems that both of these characters also have a knack for taking out/holding their own again opponents much stronger than them. That's why I feel strength is not so much of an issue here. I mean, Wonder Woman takes it Superman and can (and has, I believe) defeat him under her own power. He's stronger, yes, but she has more skills and a few other effective powers. That's all I'm trying to say here in this thread. I just feel that Colossus has a bit more variety to him, making him a bit too versatile for Shulkie to handle.

Any majority that I think Colossus wins will not be a big one at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Colossus would win 5.5/10.

Strength alone will not win this match.

Originally posted by Melnorme Highly speculative. She knows the moves, and knows how to fight. She's used to switching back and forth...it didn't seem to present a problem vs Champion, so I don't know where you're getting this from. On the same token, why don't you propose limiting Colossus in the same way? At least Jen's still made of flesh and bone...Colossus can't even feel, or smell, or presumably see and hear the same way he does 90% of the rest of the time. Why doesn't that completely screw up his abilities?

It's not that speculative, the She-Hulk solo continually reinforces the Jekyll/Hyde personality differences, at the very least She-Hulk is less disciplined than Jen and discipline is a key component of martial arts. Then regarding feats, we've never seen She-Hulk exhibited as an expert fighter, relying on strength even IF she knew moves that would let her surgically use less force and more technique, for whatever reason as She-Hulk she doesn't.

As for Colossus, the difference can be in training. Colossus is trained in his metal form. We don't know when/where Jen picked up her Jen fighting skills, we can't assume she learned them in her She-Hulk form and they carried over (and likely didn't as they'd do frail Jen little good)... and the personality She-Hulk portrays suggests otherwise, bordering on ADD... I can't see She-Hulk sitting through meditation and training when she knows she can just rely on her muscles; however, I can see Jen doing for herself.

So whatever we assume, as far as seen feats, we don't see She-Hulk busting out Kung Fu or training in it.



Even if that's the case, that's what makes a feat live or die. If She-Hulk doesn't continually display that level of strength from a volume back, we can see that she's been effectively depowered as far as the Marvel Universe is concerned. It's what makes the SMvsFL an exception vs rule. That's why, personally, I'm waiting for more feats before I claim She-Hulk is magnitudes stronger than Thing/Colossus, particularly when we can use in-story/in-canon elements to explain a depowering (namely Jen stopping her self-conditioning).

But Demas, you forget. She-Hulk was part of the Avengers. Jen Walters was only there if Shulkie had to change back for whatever reasons. For all intents and purposes, She-Hulk is the one trained by Cap, etc.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But if he was able to do so in sixties, why not in 21st? Was he powered down? So in three months, Silver Surfer (he is master of fighting?), Gladiator (same), Drax (he as never been master of fighting to my recall) and Gamora (Only one with exeptional fighting skills, are able to deliver training that equals billions of years of constant fighting? Billions of years of perfecting to be a...perfect fighting machine? Billions of years of channeling the Power Primordial to reflexes, speed, strenght and durability?

We can assume Jens strength is exponentially increased by a factor of thousands. Meaning if Jenny goes from human class 100 to human class 160, that'll be a gigantic boost for Shulkie.

Her strength in human form increased by thousands?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Her strength in human form increased by thousands?

Worded it wrong.

No, her strength in human form increases her strength in Hulk form exponentially. A small increase(10-15lbs) to Jen Walters could be thousands of pounds for She-Hulk. Shulkie is thousands of times stronger than Jen, so Jens increases in strength increase Shulkies overall strength by thousands.

We really need a Marvel Encyclopedia to address this :P


Also: The artist who drew that She-Hulk vs Champion comic did the last few comics, and She-Hulk was noticably "thicker" than usual.

Ahh...I got it.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Ahh...I got it.
Yeah, it seemed odd for you to be lost. I figured either I messed up what I said, or you were lying all those times you looked intelligent