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Discuss

apparently upholding the constitution and preserving everything america stands for is just "playing politics"

They've always been doing wire-tapping.

Originally posted by PVS
apparently upholding the constitution and preserving everything america stands for is just "playing politics" it's just a piece of paper to him

...to wipe his ass with apparently

The government is always doing things we're not aware of....It's just the way it is.

*is glad not to live in a crappy government run country*

Originally posted by debbiejo
The government is always doing things we're not aware of....It's just the way it is.

That's part of the problem, not only are they doing it and letting everyone be aware that they are doing it. But they are trying to convince people that they do this shit for the people's benifit, and if the people don't like it, they don't really seem to give 2 sh*ts.

When I'm on the phone, I know someone is listening.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
That's part of the problem, not only are they doing it and letting everyone be aware that they are doing it. But they are trying to convince people that they do this shit for the people's benifit, and if the people don't like it, they don't really seem to give 2 sh*ts. Nothing a person can do.....Governments going to do what they feel is beneficial or even not to their own wills or agendas........Happens on who ever you elect.....Doesn't mean I like it or want to accept it.....just is.

more patriot act bullship McCarthyism!

Originally posted by Bushwacker




Our government might be a bit of a pain in the ass sometimes, but not as pathetic as the US. So wtf you smoking?

Originally posted by KharmaDog
That's part of the problem, not only are they doing it and letting everyone be aware that they are doing it. But they are trying to convince people that they do this shit for the people's benifit, and if the people don't like it, they don't really seem to give 2 sh*ts.

Exactly, in your thread about post 9/11 changes, this is the biggest change. 9/11 has given this pseudo-theocratic administration the unquestioned ability to tell us they're protecting our lives, by sacrificing our freedoms. Sure they were doing illegal things to monitor both domestic and foreign citizens before 9/11. But, since then, they've not only told us they were doing it, but they feel they have to right to shoot us the bird while they're doing it.

Originally posted by KidRock
LOL where do you live

Aus. Theres not so much public outcry on politics over here in comparison to the US.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
When I'm on the phone, I know someone is listening.
Yea, sometimes I talk to them. They dont talk back, but they are better friends that way.

Bush told the public that he has saved American lives with it!
He's such a hero....

Originally posted by overlord
Bush told the public that he has saved American lives with it!
He's such a hero....

I must admit I am watching this with some interest, at least in a pseudo sociological/psychological sense - the Bush administration has got away with a fair bit by poking the "it's for freedom" or "if we don't do this a TERRORIST will get you" on stage, and I just wonder how large the publics resource of fearful belief is... I mean, is their any chance of Bush brining the public on side by saying "well, if we don't listen to your private conversations and calls without a warrant, then you are in danger"? Some say fear (and hair) won the last election, I just wonder some times how much more it might do, and how much a fearful public is willing to believe...

The constitution is slowly dissolving. ...

For some reason when I first read the title I got an image of Bush on some cable DIY show, teaching us all how to tap a bit of wire with a small hammer....

Bush: Now, raise the hammer slowley, not to fast or to high, or you might hit yourself in the face like I just did, and then tap it, don't hit, this is wire tapping. Now here's one I prepared earlier...

Well, I mean, they have to keep him entertained somehow don't they? And he is a bit old to really enjoy a good cardboard box...

"...there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution." -dubya 4/20/04

must be a misquote from the liberal bias media!!!! no wait...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

If America itself plans to abolish all that it stands for what's the point of fighting foreign terrorism?

so we can have a false and temporary sense of safety.
wtf happened to "land of the free and home of the brave" ?

american style democracy is incompatible with the neocon/straussian agenda. only the illusion of democracy in what is essentially a national socialist police state.
typical bush speach: "america terror, terrorism 9/11. Iraq al-quaida, safer terror. freedom safer 9/11, iraq. al-quaida america. nukular america iraq safer. god, evil terror. america."

step 1-dems take over congress in '06

step 2-impeach these f***ers

problem solved

and i think it just may happen

Originally posted by Darth Jello
american style democracy is incompatible with the neocon/straussian agenda. only the illusion of democracy in what is essentially a national socialist police state.
typical bush speach: "america terror, terrorism 9/11. Iraq al-quaida, safer terror. freedom safer 9/11, iraq. al-quaida america. nukular america iraq safer. god, evil terror. america."

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/us.jsp?floc=ns-tos-feat-h-02&feature=newz_1205bush

shit>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fan *smack*

Originally posted by PVS
shit>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fan *smack*

I thought you might like that PVS.

music to my ears.
let freedom ring (hopefully)

I don't know I kind of expected something like this. I mean with all of the stuff that Bush has done alreeady this doesn't suprise me that much. It's also not that unusual really. Plenty of president's have taken away numerous freedoms during war time (or this so called war time). Lincoln took over almost complete power during the civil war and did a bunch of stuff that went against the constituition, that is just what the president and government do during these time periods, whether it's right or not. Of course that's no excuse and he is still going to have to accept responsibility.

Can you give examples of the freedoms Lincoln took away? Seriously.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Can you give examples of the freedoms Lincoln took away? Seriously.
Oh how about habeus corpus that serious enough for ya. He also just gave away federal money to private industry so that they would make stuff for the union army. He barely consulted Congress on any of this which goes against the constitution as well. His reasoning was that to save the constitution he must break some of it's laws.

Originally posted by dark99
Oh how about habeus corpus that serious enough for ya. He also just gave away federal money to private industry so that they would make stuff for the union army. He barely consulted Congress on any of this which goes against the constitution as well. His reasoning was that to save the constitution he must break some of it's laws.


Hold up buddy, I was asking "seriously". Stow the attitude.

Habeau Corpus is the right to go before a judge and determine if you are being imprisioned, lawfully.

I am aware that he suspended the right, twice. But it was restored in 1866 I believe. But, I'm unaware that he ever suspended the constituition. He did so, in parts of the country that were in open rebellion. But, I'm unaware of any current situation where any states are in rebellionn.

Originally posted by PVS
step 1-dems take over congress in '06

step 2-impeach these f***ers

problem solved

and i think it just may happen

Step 3. terrorists take over the country

step 4. republicans have to bail dems out of trouble..again.

it's getting harder and harder to ignore your stupidity

Originally posted by Darth Jello
it's getting harder and harder to ignore your stupidity

This coming from someone with the name "Darth Jello"..oh the irony hurts.

That coming from someone whose name is KidRock. Geez.

That coming from someone whose name is Snoopbert. Tsk !


Ok my turn

*awaits next 'that coming from....'*

Geez!...that coming from someone named after the Geotechnical Consulting Group!








http://www.gcg.co.uk/

Geez..........and this coming from someone named Captn. F...What does this mean anyway....

Just had too..

Hey I am perfectly qualified to input my thoughts on the present subject, being a representation of a recognised engineering company that specialises in underground tunneling that also provides a service for Tapping !

That coming from a Fanta-man !

Originally posted by debbiejo
Geez..........and this coming from someone named Captn. F...What does this mean anyway....

Just had too..

Well, Captain Fabulous sounded too gay to me....


actually, it's the title of my favorite album of all time.... Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy

horay for nationalism

Originally posted by KidRock
Step 3. terrorists take over the country

step 4. republicans have to bail dems out of trouble..again. OMG! Without wire tapping your whole country would have been taken over by terrorists!

Whahaha!! The media can make some people believe anything don't they?
Now just convince all the weak minded that human rights should be neglected when dealing with suspects and the police state can be completed! Finally!

Originally posted by Darth Jello
it's getting harder and harder to ignore your stupidity

the ignore function can be quite liberating
it drives the idiots crazy too. of coarse the setback is
that other people quote them, so its not bulletproof...oh well.

Just out of interest, in the US are there safe guards in place if say the elected government does something "unconstitutional"? Or if there is a debate about it is there some body that can look at the matter and say "Yes, that compromises the constitution" or "No, that doesn't"?

For example, in Australia the government has just passed a heap of IR reform legislation, which has created debate and is viewed as potentially unconstitutional. Due to this the State Governments have taken the case to the High Court (the highest court in the land here.) They will look at the constitution, look at what powers the federal government has to make such changes, and then rule whether it is legal and permissible in accordance with constitutional limits... so is such an avenue available in the US?

Originally posted by overlord
OMG! Without wire tapping your whole country would have been taken over by terrorists!

Whahaha!! The media can make some people believe anything don't they?
Now just convince all the weak minded that human rights should be neglected when dealing with suspects and the police state can be completed! Finally!

well, america has been overrun by chickenshit hypocrites it seems.
who is it that wants unlimited power given to the federal government?
who is it that wants to get involved with foreign affairs which have no impact on the homeland? who is it that forsaked the warnings of our forfathers in regards to losing the liberties they fought and died for?
and who then turns around and calls everyone else 'pussies' for not cowering and begging for those very liberties to be stripped away?

i though that was the democrats' job? is this role reversal or was it all just bullshit labels?

oh but bush gave us tax cuts...well...he gave the rich tax cuts, based on an econimic theory already proven to be a failure in the 80's. but he did cut taxes...so i guess he's still a republican...right?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Just out of interest, in the US are there safe guards in place if say the elected government does something "unconstitutional"? Or if there is a debate about it is there some body that can look at the matter and say "Yes, that compromises the constitution" or "No, that doesn't"?

For example, in Australia the government has just passed a heap of IR reform legislation, which has created debate and is viewed as potentially unconstitutional. Due to this the State Governments have taken the case to the High Court (the highest court in the land here.) They will look at the constitution, look at what powers the federal government has to make such changes, and then rule whether it is legal and permissible in accordance with constitutional limits... so is such an avenue available in the US?
Well according to the declaration the people have the right to revolt if the government is too oppresive. Although I doubt that something like that would happen.

Originally posted by overlord
OMG! Without wire tapping your whole country would have been taken over by terrorists!

Whahaha!! The media can make some people believe anything don't they?
Now just convince all the weak minded that human rights should be neglected when dealing with suspects and the police state can be completed! Finally!

If you call human rights just letting terrorists in our front door and greeting them with lots of money human rights then..shit yeah take mine away.

Vote liberal next election and it will be the last we ever have..at least the last free one until we have a Saddam Hussein like run country.

Originally posted by KidRock
If you call human rights just letting terrorists in our front door and greeting them with lots of money human rights then..shit yeah take mine away.

Vote liberal next election and it will be the last we ever have..at least the last free one until we have a Saddam Hussein like run country.

If they think that wire taps erode their rights, imagine what 2 million people dyeing in a nuclear fireball would do.

give me liberty or give me death.

part of what america stands for is the iron will to maintain our liberty in spite of fear and TERROR.

or you can just be a pussy and let all your freedom be stripped away.

Originally posted by PVS
give me liberty or give me death.

part of what america stands for is the iron will to maintain our liberty in spite of fear and TERROR.

or you can just be a pussy and let all your freedom be stripped away.

You are correct, you have the right to die for your rights. Just remember the person who made that statement was later hung by the British.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are correct, you have the right to die for your rights. Just remember the person who made that statement was later hung by the British.

as were many who died willingly for our freedom.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If they think that wire taps erode their rights, imagine what 2 million people dyeing in a nuclear fireball would do.

Exactly. And they will blame it (those liberals who are left) on the republicans.

Originally posted by PVS
as were many who died willingly for our freedom.

And still do today.

We are not on different sides on this issue. All I am saying is things could be worse.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And still do today.

We are not on different sides on this issue. All I am saying is things could be worse.

agreed...which is exactly why we shouldnt let it get worse.
or else what are our soldiers enlisted and are dying for?
so a country of scared useless wusses can feel temporarily safe and secure?

This to me is not a clear cut "right or wrong" issue. Sure,it would violate americans' right to privacy BUT like it's been said before,after 9 11 changes might be needed. Even as much as i don't like Bush,he may not be wrong this time. I do disagree entirely with the Patriot Act however.

Originally posted by PVS
agreed...which is exactly why we shouldnt let it get worse.
or else what are our soldiers enlisted and are dying for?
so a country of scared useless wusses can feel temporarily safe and secure?

Wusses is inappropriate language.

If we let the terrorists win, the only right we will have is to die.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Wusses is inappropriate language.

If we let the terrorists win, the only right we will have is to die.

yes great logic. we cant let the terrorists win and take away what we stand for, so we will destroy everything america stands for to prevent that.

we cant let the terrorists murder our soldiers, so we'll send our soldiers to some country where the terrorists who attacked us were nowhere to be found.

we cant let the countries who harbor terrorists get away with it, so we'll ally ourselves with the very country who all red arrows in the 9-11 report pointed to, and level a country which had nothing to do with it.

we cant allow terrorism to spread, so we'll create yet another new breeding ground for al qaeda recruites where there was once just a dime a dozen dictatorship.

we cant let the terrorists win...but it seems we've sure been helping them

Originally posted by PVS
yes great logic. we cant let the terrorists win and take away what we stand for, so we will destroy everything america stands for to prevent that.

we cant let the terrorists murder our soldiers, so we'll send our soldiers to some country where the terrorists who attacked us were nowhere to be found.

we cant let the countries who harbor terrorists get away with it, so we'll ally ourselves with the very country who all red arrows in the 9-11 report pointed to, and level a country which had nothing to do with it.

we cant allow terrorism to spread, so we'll create yet another new breeding ground for al qaeda recruites where there was once just a dime a dozen dictatorship.

we cant let the terrorists win...but it seems we've sure been helping them

Isn't that the scortched earth policy the Russians used in WW2? Burn everything down ourselves, so it can't be used againsts us by the Germans.

Ill let Bush listen in on my calls all I want. I'm no criminal. Seems like people would rather get killed in a terrorist attack then let Bush and company hear them talk to grandma on the phone about christmas dinner.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

This is a small price to pay to keep this country free.

you weave irony so masterfully.

Originally posted by KidRock
Ill let Bush listen in on my calls all I want. I'm no criminal. Seems like people would rather get killed in a terrorist attack then let Bush and company hear them talk to grandma on the phone about christmas dinner.

It's funny how you praise american ideals to make one of your stupid points or comments, and then quickly agree with giving up your american ideals to make one of your stupid points or comments.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
It's funny how you praise american ideals to make one of your stupid points or comments, and then quickly agree with giving up your american ideals to make one of your stupid points or comments.
Thanks for that positive contribution to the thread.

Originally posted by KidRock
Thanks for that positive contribution to the thread. Much like your posts?

i think considering kidrocks exhibited antisocial attitude he would be a prime candidate for the watch list.

columbine anyone?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And still do today.

We are not on different sides on this issue. All I am saying is things could be worse.

Things could be much better right now as well if a certain political party who lost the election wasnt trying to **** everything up.

i thought it was canada's fault?

Originally posted by PVS
i thought it was canada's fault?

Is that a South Park reference?

It feels good haveing an entourage follow me around to every thread

whoring for attention has its rewards?
even if you're only getting the equivalent of a cleavland steamer?

to each their own

Originally posted by PVS
whoring for attention has its rewards?
even if you're only getting the equivalent of a cleavland steamer?

to each their own

I do no whoring for attention..the whores just seem to be attracted to me. Point in case

But like you said..to each their own indeed.

Originally posted by KidRock
It feels good haveing an entourage follow me around to every thread

There is no one following you, between you and your ego, there is not room left.

jk

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no one following you, between you and your ego, there is not room left.

jk

Its not easy being this good...wait yes it is.

Originally posted by KidRock
If you call human rights just letting terrorists in our front door and greeting them with lots of money human rights then..shit yeah take mine away.

Vote liberal next election and it will be the last we ever have..at least the last free one until we have a Saddam Hussein like run country. Trust me.. When it will be you who gets mistaken for some "OMG!! A TERRORIST" and you get beaten the crap out of to try to get you to admit crimes and conspiracy you did not commit.. Then you will be wishing you still had the right to live as a normal human being.

But your excuses don't fool me though.
Point is that the government is there "for the people by the people" and not to police the citizen it serves or create an elite group of people who can live with all comfort instead of everybody being equal.

Get some insight to the world you live in.
People as naive as yourself should be stripped of the right to vote.

Originally posted by Snoopbert
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4542880.stm

Discuss
I think it's a disgusting thing to do, invading people's privacy without their consent.

redundant
if they had your consent it wouldnt very well be an invasion would it?

I think Bush's defense against the illegal wire tapping is amazing:

- It's 'shamelful' to be talking about it in a time of war.

- Talking about it is aiding the terrorists.

Genius.

i know i've been saying this for almost five years, but isn't it about time we impeach the ****er and jail everyone within sniffing distance of him for treason and crimes against humanity?

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I think Bush's defense against the illegal wire tapping is amazing:

- It's 'shamelful' to be talking about it in a time of war.

- Talking about it is aiding the terrorists.

Genius.

not to mention that there was an immediate federal investigation launched to find out who leaked the information to the press. amazing how the bush administration suddenly has the capacity to pull every string in washington with upmost promptness given the ideal circumstance.

however, no word on any federal investigation into the admitted activities of our president, who seems to think that by starting a war he is able to suspend the constitution at will. although he is dead wrong.........where is the investigation? dont hold your breath.

Searched and didn't find a thread about it.

I think it's funny that everyone isn't upset about this; it's directly against the Constitution.

I don't care.

You don't care that people can randomly wiretap you without a warrant?

-AC

if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear hitler HEIL!!!

never give up freedoms...................warrentless wiretaps serious abuse of power.

vhere are yor papers?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f11/t382710.html

Though you're right, doesn't come up on a normal search.

Things like this are always potentially dangerous. After all, once you can break and justify one constitutional right, or an ethical concept, it gets easier to do it again, and accept it again.

Just look at Emperor Palpatine...

We need one of those Palpatine-Bush resemblence pictures now...

Personally, it is directly against the Constitution, and should be disallowed, regardless of intent. It could be VERY easily abused.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Things like this are always potentially dangerous. After all, once you can break and justify one constitutional right, or an ethical concept, it gets easier to do it again, and accept it again.

makes me wonder what's next (for america).

Impeach em all, convict em, lock em all up and never let them out.

I don't see the problem with it. As PVS said if you have nothing to hide there is no problem.

Yeah, well.. Certain things are taboo.. The people wiretapping are still human too.. What if information is sold to the media.. What if.. What if..

Best thing is never to allow any privacy violation without warrant.
It can and probably will only get worse..

Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, well.. Certain things are taboo.. The people wiretapping are still human too.. What if information is sold to the media.. What if.. What if..

Best thing is never to allow any privacy violation without warrant.
It can and probably will only get worse..


absolutely give an inch THEY will take a mile and justify it with a pile of shit just as high.

Here's the main issues.

There were no warrants on these wiretaps. Read the Constitution; if you are going to have a wiretap or any other type of search (physical or electronic) on US citizens, you need a warrant.

FISA, the secret court that gives out authorization for warrants on such issues, was issuing five warrants a day for wiretapping throughout the period that Bush did the illegal wiretapping. Meanwhile, FISA rejected four claims for warrants. Not four a day - four total.

Basically, what the Bush administration is saying, is that they were trying to spy on so many people that FISA couldn't keep up. Or maybe they were just spying on people that had nothing to do with terrorism (like the four groups protesting the military's don't ask don't tell policy).

Before you say, "Hey, they had information that couldn't wait on a court!" that's why FISA has a provision where they could retroactively request a warrant up to 72 hours later.

Since these wiretaps are without warrants, that means that the evidence is not admissible in court. Therefore, if they actually found evidence of a terrorist act, they could not try the person in court - they would have no admissible evidence. Of course, they would just then illegally hold them in a secret Eastern European prison, so that point is moot I guess.

And the President does not have nor ever has had these powers - even during war time. Just being in a war does not make the President a King.

I'll finish up with this quote from John W Dean:

i hope he gets impeached for this crap.

nice mc escher sig by the way.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
i hope he gets impeached for this crap.

nice mc escher sig by the way.


thanks

Originally posted by Fire
I don't see the problem with it. As PVS said if you have nothing to hide there is no problem.

Are you being ironic, or did you miss PVS' irony? I can't decide...