Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Quinlan against RotJ Luke. Both use the darkside for this one.

We'll say....Carbonite Chamber for the arena. Nice and small, with a few obstacles.

Quinlan. One of the only Purge survivors, he stalemated with Windu, he practitioned Vaapad and Makashi and he killed a two-hundred year old sith lord. Not to mention he killed a group full of Lightsaber-wielding Sith witches.

Off topic: Who was the sith he killed?

Luke stood against Vader though. I dont really have an answer for this fight yet, at the moment Im kinda regarding them as equal until I can think of stuff.

They're both using the darkside in the fight, so they'll both be a little bit angry.

Luke takes this. He took Vader who is stated by GL as 80% as powerful as Sidious. Quinlain did not stalemate Mace. They were sparring and then when Vos used some of Vapaad Mace put Vos on his ass in two seconds.

Sorgo most of those facts are wrong.

Originally posted by kingkman
Sorgo most of those facts are wrong.

Not only are they mentioned in the Databank, but I have the Comics at home.

The facts are all correct.

He also served under Darth Tyranus for a period of time.

Ok you read comics at home. You must be quite the party animal but that still doesn't tell me anything. You have no proof.

can you show us some proof, sorgo?

Sorgo's right. have those same comics, although because I live in the UK they put into a sought of collection of clone wars comics.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Look up in the Databank or type in "Quinlan Vos" and find the site that shows his accomplishments and the Comic he killed them in.

Luke also had to get angry and previously had his hand lopped off by the same Man.

By the time of ROTJ, vader could not beat luke anymore. as you saw in the beginning of their fight in ROTJ, that luke was winning. and then he shut off his saber and refused to fight his dad, it was luke who was holding back he did not want to kill his dad he wanted to turn him to the good side. Luke could have beaten Vader without even using his force rage. Which completely pawned vader, in fact. This proves that luke's power must have more than doubled since ESB. Luke was doing very well against vader even while luke was holding back. Luke may have been at that point as strong as sidious or very close. And dont bring up that he was fried by emperor because luke threw away his saber and refused to fight, and had his guard down, he didnt expect the force lightning, i dont think any jedi other than yoda would have easily deflected the lightning and faught back without their saber. Mace windu was pretty helpless to when sidious fired his lightning on him just before seconds before mace died. And dont bring up the fact that mace lost his hand, so did luke. and ROTJ sids was even stronger. Luke takes this because vos wasnt as powerful as the emperor. and luke is using his force rage in this. which would allow luke to equal the emperor if not surpass him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke takes this. He took Vader who is stated by GL as 80% as powerful as Sidious. Quinlain did not stalemate Mace. They were sparring and then when Vos used some of Vapaad Mace put Vos on his ass in two seconds. Did Lucas say anything regarding Darth Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke only to lure him? That's what some people on this forum believe. Wasnt Vader attempting to lure Luke to the Dark Side? That explains how Luke nearly turned to the dark

Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
By the time of ROTJ, vader could not beat luke anymore. as you saw in the beginning of their fight in ROTJ, that luke was winning. and then he shut off his saber and refused to fight his dad, it was luke who was holding back he did not want to kill his dad he wanted to turn him to the good side. Luke could have beaten Vader without even using his force rage. Which completely pawned vader, in fact. This proves that luke's power must have more than doubled since ESB. Luke was doing very well against vader even while luke was holding back. Luke may have been at that point as strong as sidious or very close. And dont bring up that he was fried by emperor because luke threw away his saber and refused to fight, and had his guard down, he didnt expect the force lightning, i dont think any jedi other than yoda would have easily deflected the lightning and faught back without their saber. Mace windu was pretty helpless to when sidious fired his lightning on him just before seconds before mace died. And dont bring up the fact that mace lost his hand, so did luke. and ROTJ sids was even stronger. Luke takes this because vos wasnt as powerful as the emperor. and luke is using his force rage in this. which would allow luke to equal the emperor if not surpass him.

You cannot possibly believe the crap you type on here. The emperor was killing Mace, but was torturing Luke. There is no "Force rage", it's only a video game thing. He only got pissed 'cuz Vader was gonna lure Leia to the dark side. And Mace lost his hand in the very fight with Sids, and yet, Luke has his prosthetic.

Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
By the time of ROTJ, vader could not beat luke anymore. as you saw in the beginning of their fight in ROTJ, that luke was winning. and then he shut off his saber and refused to fight his dad, it was luke who was holding back he did not want to kill his dad he wanted to turn him to the good side. Luke could have beaten Vader without even using his force rage. Which completely pawned vader, in fact. This proves that luke's power must have more than doubled since ESB. Luke was doing very well against vader even while luke was holding back. Luke may have been at that point as strong as sidious or very close. And dont bring up that he was fried by emperor because luke threw away his saber and refused to fight, and had his guard down, he didnt expect the force lightning, i dont think any jedi other than yoda would have easily deflected the lightning and faught back without their saber. Mace windu was pretty helpless to when sidious fired his lightning on him just before seconds before mace died. And dont bring up the fact that mace lost his hand, so did luke. and ROTJ sids was even stronger. Luke takes this because vos wasnt as powerful as the emperor. and luke is using his force rage in this. which would allow luke to equal the emperor if not surpass him.


It makes no sense at all that Luke Skywalker, with 8 months of traning could be better than AOTC Anakin, who had more potential than Luke and had studied in 10 years with masters instead of reading instructions at Ben Kenobis place. And Vader is stronger and better than AOTC Anakin, much better.

Darth Vader was most likley wanting to turn Luke to the dark side and used defence instead of offensive (which was his primary style, so he wasent as good on defence). Luke was actually going offensive in the beginning but later realised, after hearing Palpatine, that he didn't and wouldent fight his father.

When Luke was going apeshit on Vader, he left himself open many times where Vader had the possibility to strike like he did in ESB but he didn't. He wanted Luke to turn to the dark side, when finding his weak point and acctually making him use his dark energies, why kill him?

Luke might have broken through his defence but if Vader had gone offensive he would have killed Luke right there. More traning, experience, strenght, skill etc. And Luke was hardly 80% of Palpatines potential there, Obi-Wan defeated Anakin but was hardly more than 80% of Palpatines potential.

i think your seriously underestimated luke, his power skyrocketed when he went ballistic, vader didnt stand a chance. it was luke who wanted to turn vader to the lightside or did you forget that, that was the reason "he let himself get captured", luke wasnt trying to kill vader at all, but vader was trying to kill luke or did you remember when luke turned off his saber, and vader then attacked luke while his saber was off. now who is the one who is holding back not wanting to kill his family. Luke many times refused to fight vader, and vader did not hesitate striking luke even when luke turned his saber off. seriously watch the movie again. he overpowered vader and did not win by a mere technicality like obi-wan did. big difference. and if a bully at school who is much faster and stronger than you goes all insane on you with a weapon, moving at virtually the speed of light. i doubt you would be trying to look for an opening or even thinking about it, like most sane people you would be running for your life.

Stop telling me to watch the movie again or having my facts messed up, I never said anything like that about you.

Luke not wanting to kill Vader? Who was attacking all the time, Luke. Who was defending all the time, Vader.

Vader was provoking Luke all the time, he wanted him to use the dark side, that was the whole idea, if he wanted to kill him he would have done it at ESB or when they captured him.

Remember when Luke turned of his lightsaber and jumped up on that ledge. Vader tossed his sword, what did Luke do? He turned his face away, he couldent avoid it, still it missed.
I don't think that is of bad marksman ship by Vader, rather to get Luke down from there.
If Vaders goal was to kill Luke, why would he provoke him all the time. Luke was hiding, saying that he didn't want to fight him. If Vader wanted to kill him, this would be the chance.

Look at the facts, how can ROTJ Luke be better than ROTJ Vader or even AOTC Anakin.
Vader has practised over 40 years.
Vader has masterd his style and even taken it to a higher level.
Vader has more potential than Luke, meaning that in AOTC, Anakin had practised for 10 years and would become better than Luke would be, how can Luke be better than him in 8 months.

Luke has practised without a master for 8 months.
All we see Luke do is hitting his sword back and forth.
He hasent mastered the force.
He hasent mastered the lightsaber.
He has around 3 years of jedi experience.

Everything is against Luke, tell me how he can become so good at such a short time when Vader, who would become more powerful than Luke, couldent with more than 30 years more experience.

Originally posted by kamikz
Stop telling me to watch the movie again or having my facts messed up, I never said anything like that about you.

i am sorry i didnt mean it that way



Vader attacked when luke's sword was off



He didnt kill Vader because the emperor would be very angry at vader if he did.



Um Vader was looking for luke, he couldnt find him because luke was using the force to hide himself, you could see that vader reacted everytime he heard luke's voice, he was trying to find the source of the voice.



but Vader with the suit has much less potential than luke, luke is anakin's son and his potential is very close to anakin's potential. Remember Vader lost half his potential after mustafar.



Anakin had many flaws that luke did not, he was arrogant, impatient, reckless, etc. Luke was more mature and a faster learner.



He did have a master - Yoda and obi-wan, ghosts or not they could have taught luke as well as anyone could. Yoda and Ben were more experienced and wiser by this time, so they could suffiently train luke.




The movie skipped alot of parts, i am sure he learned more than that. Otherwise how would he know how to use force pull or fight vader with a saber,etc




Cause Vader was either near or at his limit ROTJ, his potential halved so luke's power could go beyond since luke's potential is well above it. And guess what luke does go well beyond, because if you read the NJO books, luke's power skyrockets in a relatively short amount of time. Surpassing virtually every single character in the star wars universe. (virtually = almost)

there you go, happy?

Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
i am sorry i didnt mean it that way



Vader attacked when luke's sword was off

It's ok, thanks.

He didnt kill Vader because the emperor would be very angry at vader if he did.

It was Vader's idea to turn Luke, it was Vader that had feelings for Luke, the Emperor said it himself. But actually, you admitted that the plan was not to kill Luke here.

Um Vader was looking for luke, he couldnt find him because luke was using the force to hide himself, you could see that vader reacted everytime he heard luke's voice, he was trying to find the source of the voice.

He could read Luke's mind all the time, he knew what he was thinking about, he used it to make him go dark side. Luke couldent hide there forever, Vader would have found him sooner or later. His intentions was fully focused on turning Luke or they would have killed him when they captured him or go 2 on 1.

but Vader with the suit has much less potential than luke, luke is anakin's son and his potential is very close to anakin's potential. Remember Vader lost half his potential after mustafar.

Yes he had, but Luke has not mastered the ways of the force nor has he yet reached a high limit of his potential, he is still a learner. Anakin was stronger than Obi-Wan, still Obi-Wan's knowledge of the force and force powers made him able to stalemate Anakin in the force push contest on Mustafar.

Anakin in AOTC had practised for 10 years, had higher potential than Luke and had more possibilities to train and more masters. So Luke being better than AOTC Anakin has no logic. Vader is much better than AOTC, there is logic in that.


Anakin had many flaws that luke did not, he was arrogant, impatient, reckless, etc. Luke was more mature and a faster learner.

Vader did not have those weaknesses, he was both patient, smart and strong as Darth Vader in the OT.

He did have a master - Yoda and obi-wan, ghosts or not they could have taught luke as well as anyone could. Yoda and Ben were more experienced and wiser by this time, so they could suffiently train luke.


They could not teach him how to fight with a lightsaber, they could only talk to him, that's not as good. Ok so he had masters, but they were not as good as they were for Anakin.

The movie skipped alot of parts, i am sure he learned more than that. Otherwise how would he know how to use force pull or fight vader with a saber,etc

Proof?

Why didn't Luke use the force on the controls on the gate to the rancor instead of tossing a rock?

About fighting Vader, that's what were discussing right now. Vader might as well have kicked his ass in a second since we don't know.


Cause Vader was either near or at his limit ROTJ, his potential halved so luke's power could go beyond since luke's potential is well above it. And guess what luke does go well beyond, because if you read the NJO books, luke's power skyrockets in a relatively short amount of time. Surpassing virtually every single character in the star wars universe. (virtually = almost)

there you go, happy?

I don't think Lukes potential got that high with 8 months of jedi traning, neither do I think he could have masterd a style. That would take over a decade. He also didn't have much access to traning as normal jedi did nor much experience.

I'm quite pleased, it's enjoying to debate this with you.

Edit: this got a little ****ed up, me replys are in the quote line, sorry. (under your previous posts, you have to read at the dark area).

Originally posted by kamikz


I don't think Lukes potential got that high with 8 months of jedi traning, neither do I think he could have masterd a style. That would take over a decade. He also didn't have much access to traning as normal jedi did nor much experience.

I'm quite pleased, it's enjoying to debate this with you.

Edit: this got a little ****ed up, me replys are in the quote line, sorry. (under your previous posts, you have to read at the dark area).

Thank you, i also enjoy debating with you

Well if you think about it anakin at rots actually secumbed to the dark side with sidious's influence alone. While Luke was being seducted by both his dad and sids and still he stood up to them and refused to become a sith. that shows true power because the average undertrained jedi would defintely have secummbed, in fact if you replace luke in that situation with any jedi with 8 months or a little more experience, they would not do nearly as well as luke did, you got to hand it to luke, hes a fast learner lol, with only 8 months his power rivals that with a jedi with many years of training. Anakin after 10 years of training was merely a padawan, while luke was a knight after 8 months. his maturity rose much faster than anakins.

Originally posted by kamikz
It makes no sense at all that Luke Skywalker, with 8 months of traning could be better than AOTC Anakin, who had more potential than Luke and had studied in 10 years with masters instead of reading instructions at Ben Kenobis place. And Vader is stronger and better than AOTC Anakin, much better.

Actually it does. Try training a child in something and an adult in something. The adult will learn it and remember it much better than the child will. Training Jedi from birth makes them better in the long run by establishing things like morals and values, and teaching them things like diplomatic skills and training them in things like patience. Anakin was trained to be a diplomat like all oher PT Jedi, Luke was trained to be a weapon ready to kill Vader.

Luke also has the Kaiburr Crystall which makes him much stronger than he otherwise would be.

Originally posted by kamikz
Darth Vader was most likley wanting to turn Luke to the dark side and used defence instead of offensive (which was his primary style, so he wasent as good on defence). Luke was actually going offensive in the beginning but later realised, after hearing Palpatine, that he didn't and wouldent fight his father.

Vader used form five which was based on form three. Vader's form is good at defence. Luke was fighting Vader in the beginning, but he was holding back too. I don't know why people always assume Luke was going his hardest and Vader wasn't. Until Vader started talking about Leia, Luke was holding back because he wasn't there to kill Vader anymore, he wanted to turn him to the light just as much as Vader wanted to turn him to the dark. When Luke got pissed and floored Vader was when he went as hard as he could and their is no proof that Vader wasn't trying as hard as he could anymore.

Originally posted by kamikz
When Luke was going apeshit on Vader, he left himself open many times where Vader had the possibility to strike like he did in ESB but he didn't. He wanted Luke to turn to the dark side, when finding his weak point and acctually making him use his dark energies, why kill him?

Vader wanted to stay alive more than he wanted Luke to come to the darkside. There were times when Luke could have killed Vader during the fight, as their are in all movie fights. You have to remember that you are viewing this from the outside and don't have to concentrate on fighting. If you were in that situation, you aren't going to perfectly see and take advantage of every opportunity because you can't see them. Same with Luke, Anakin, Obi-wan, Mace, Sidious, and Yoda. They all had opportunities that we can see with our outside view but they can't because they are caught in the middle of a fight.

Originally posted by kamikz
Luke might have broken through his defence but if Vader had gone offensive he would have killed Luke right there. More traning, experience, strenght, skill etc. And Luke was hardly 80% of Palpatines potential there, Obi-Wan defeated Anakin but was hardly more than 80% of Palpatines potential.

Problem is that Vader is crippled. He may have had more time to train, but he is still crippled.

Also note that you are assuming that Vader was at his peak in ep3. There is no proof of this. Anakin wasn't 80% as strong as Sidious in ep3, unless Dooku was significantly more powerful than Sidious, seeing as how easily Dooku pwned Anakins equal, Obi-wan. Nor is there any proof that "Luke was hardly 80% of Palpatines potential there".

In the end we got to realize that Luke is destined to become more powerful than Anakin as it turns out. So it wouldnt make sense for Luke to die against someone like Quinlan vos its not his destiny, the writers of that fight would never let luke die.

Quinlan b!tch slaps Luke with his precise speed.

lol that would be funny

Quinlan pwns Luke.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Quinlan pwns Luke.

Do you realize that luke can create a blackhole and push quinlan into it, no contest

You must be joking, right? Read the first post; it's RotJ.

yeh i was joking

No you werent

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Actually it does. Try training a child in something and an adult in something. The adult will learn it and remember it much better than the child will. Training Jedi from birth makes them better in the long run by establishing things like morals and values, and teaching them things like diplomatic skills and training them in things like patience. Anakin was trained to be a diplomat like all oher PT Jedi, Luke was trained to be a weapon ready to kill Vader.

Luke also has the Kaiburr Crystall which makes him much stronger than he otherwise would be.



Vader used form five which was based on form three. Vader's form is good at defence. Luke was fighting Vader in the beginning, but he was holding back too. I don't know why people always assume Luke was going his hardest and Vader wasn't. Until Vader started talking about Leia, Luke was holding back because he wasn't there to kill Vader anymore, he wanted to turn him to the light just as much as Vader wanted to turn him to the dark. When Luke got pissed and floored Vader was when he went as hard as he could and their is no proof that Vader wasn't trying as hard as he could anymore.



Vader wanted to stay alive more than he wanted Luke to come to the darkside. There were times when Luke could have killed Vader during the fight, as their are in all movie fights. You have to remember that you are viewing this from the outside and don't have to concentrate on fighting. If you were in that situation, you aren't going to perfectly see and take advantage of every opportunity because you can't see them. Same with Luke, Anakin, Obi-wan, Mace, Sidious, and Yoda. They all had opportunities that we can see with our outside view but they can't because they are caught in the middle of a fight.



Problem is that Vader is crippled. He may have had more time to train, but he is still crippled.

Also note that you are assuming that Vader was at his peak in ep3. There is no proof of this. Anakin wasn't 80% as strong as Sidious in ep3, unless Dooku was significantly more powerful than Sidious, seeing as how easily Dooku pwned Anakins equal, Obi-wan. Nor is there any proof that "Luke was hardly 80% of Palpatines potential there".

1. Ok that makes sense, but still. I saw a martial arts contest where a 10 year old kid was using a staff, he was absolutly excellent. He had trained almost 5 years.
Then there was a competition later where a grown man that had trained for about 3 years wielded a staff, and was much worse.

So there are differences, Anakin could, despite being 9 and no traning, use the force very well, better or as good as Luke could in ANH.
Anakin then trained in 10 years, possibly every day and with many different masters to be able to talk to, and one to train him all the time.
Sure Luke is older but he didn't have access to the same sort of training so I doubt it would matter much really.

2. Still he didn't seem to be able to use any force powers during the fight, not many can and I doubt it would make a difference.

3. So neither were aiming to kill each other in the beginning, but later on Luke sure aims to kill him. Vader was overpowerd by Luke, but I doubt that would happend if Vader was the one going offensive.
Vader has more experience, more training, mastery over the force, mastery over his style, Luke was told to kill Vader, Vader was told to turn Luke. Even though Luke tried to bring Vader to the light side he lost his patience and tried to kill him instead.
I think this battle reflects the one between Dooku and Anakin, Dooku/Vader is told to loose because the other one is going to be more powerful.

I don't think Vader was trying to stay alive hard at all, doesent he in a novel say that the thing he hates most in the galaxy is himself.
I don't think he cared about what happened, he just wanted his son to have a fate.

Really got to go to bed now, only 3 hours left until I'm going to school, good night everyone.

It's so close but I think Luke could probably do it cause he was over 80% of Sidious.

Oh, Lord. . .

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke also has the Kaiburr Crystall which makes him much stronger than he otherwise would be.

Have you read Splinter in the Mind's Eye (sp?)? The Kaiburr Crystal turns out to be a power tool in empowering the user's tie to the Force...for the purpose of HEALING. And away from Mimban, it does very little.

Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
Do you realize that luke can create a blackhole and push quinlan into it, no contest

Luke cannot create a black hole, read NJO.

You know it would probably be more helpful for the guy if you just told him that in NJO Luke controls a black hole, rather then just tell him to find it himself.

One hand of the argument:

Quinlan was trained in the age of the Jedi. He fought plenty of fully trained Masters and Knights. He spars with Mace, fights and almost defeats Tholme, kills Skorr, kills Sora Bulq (both darksiders), defeats K'Kruhk...(dont want to read through the comics again, those I remember). He has a capable fighting ability when using the darkside, and has the Jedi training under his belt. He has a few forms to use as well.

Other side:

Luke was trained without Jedi training. He only really became a Jedi at RotJ. But since he is the son of Anakin, he inherits the raw power of the Force. Using the darkside he defeats Vader easily, one of the most powerful Force users.

Does a formally trained Jedi with lots of experience, beat a fresh Jedi with little training, but with enough raw power to take on and beat a Sith effortlessly?

Are you talking about Vader? Because throughout the PT, Anakin is regarded as pretty much the best Jedi because of his potential in the Force. Unfortunately he doesnt reach that potential. He is still powerful whether he uses Force powers or not.

Yes even when weakned vader still possess considerable talent and power. Vader was very experienced and faught many force users and other enemies just like you said Quinlan did so it would be similar to fighting vader wouldnt it for luke. Except quinlan's raw power will probably be weaker than both luke and vaders. So luke has this.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Oh, Lord. . .

Lol I agree.

Read my post, luke wins this