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Traya's team? Or Sidious'?

I don't know next to little regarding Darth Bane's combat ability, so with that in mind - I can't estimate on how effective he'd be. I do believe that Sidious could defeat Dooku in battle, but Traya has that nifty instakill technique, which would probably kill Bane and Sidious.

I'd say Bane and Sidious go down.

Sidious could defeat Dooku (sort of why Sidious is the Master)
Traya could defeat Bane
Comes right down to it if the terrian is right Sidious could defeat Traya but if it is a neutral setting I'm sure Traya would win but I really can't tell for I really haven't played KoToR II.

Originally posted by Shadow x 20
Sidious could defeat Dooku (sort of why Sidious is the Master)
Traya could defeat Bane
Comes right down to it if the terrian is right Sidious could defeat Traya but if it is a neutral setting I'm sure Traya would win but I really can't tell for I really haven't played KoToR II.

I agree with that except no matter what the terrain was like Traya would take Sidious.

Yeah . . . Traya's simply more powerful than ROTS Sidious.

It all depends on whether or not Traya can instakill. If she can't, Bane would kill her and Dooku would fight off Sidious and then Dooku and Bane would together take him down.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It all depends on whether or not Traya can instakill. If she can't, Bane would kill her and Dooku would fight off Sidious and then Dooku and Bane would together take him down.

Which is why I deplore her idea of an instakill . . . but it doesn't change the facts that it exists. Also it's Kreia and Dooku against Bane and Sidious.

If Kreia can't use her instakill, Sidious will kill Dooku and Bane will kill her, is what you mean, right?

Yeah. There were plenty of times when she could have used it, but didn't, so we need to believe that it is a limited power and she can use it only rarely.

she's still powerful without it
she can levitate multiple lightsabers and that ability is pretty impressive.

Well . . . if she doesn't have the instakill ability, I don't think she'll win this one. Darth Bane has no instakills, but he has been depicted as an ultimate warrior. I don't believe her standard Force powers are that much greater than his, and I'd wager that she is the inferior duelist to him.

Without the instakill ability, she's going to lose. In the same token, Sidious is going to take down Dooku.

If she has it, she can kill Bane and Sidious.

She cannot use the insta-kill attack, however, I still think she can beat Bane.

Dooku is almost on par with Sidious, slightly inferior, but enough to tire the heck out of Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
She cannot use the insta-kill attack, however, I still think she can beat Bane.

Dooku is almost on par with Sidious, slightly inferior, but enough to tire the heck out of Sidious.

Erm. . . I dunno. I think Bane has Traya without Traya's instakill ability. His armor is parasitic, I believe... anywho...

Sidious will kill Dooku.

I dunno... sheesh...

Even if Traya his Bane with he lightsaber, it's not going to hurt him. He's got lightsaber-resistent armor that can withstand light hits. He has knowledge from Nadds tomb too. Also note that he was the only sith strong enough to survive the thought bomb(the Jedi don't count becaus it was directed at them). Bane also has a lot more fighting experince, as he has been in war for around 30 years before it ends.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Even if Traya his Bane with he lightsaber, it's not going to hurt him. He's got lightsaber-resistent armor that can withstand light hits. He has knowledge from Nadds tomb too. Also note that he was the only sith strong enough to survive the thought bomb(the Jedi don't count becaus it was directed at them). Bane also has a lot more fighting experince, as he has been in war for around 30 years before it ends.

Thanks.

Alright. Traya is going down then, if this knowledge is true, and she does not have her instakill. Dooku is going to go down to Sidious.

Bane and Sidious win! (And then Bane kills Sidious)

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It all depends on whether or not Traya can instakill. If she can't, Bane would kill her and Dooku would fight off Sidious and then Dooku and Bane would together take him down.

Instakill = stupid power...

I agree with Glentract, though; Bane was a better swordsman, and would be a match for Dooku.

Sidious is better than Dooku, IMO. He's the Master, after all. Even if he's not better by much. Bane was stronger than him, of course, physically, and Traya more powerful.

So, the match up...

Bane vs. Dooku - After a long fight, might be Dooku...could be Bane, not sure, I'll go with Dooku...

Traya vs. Sidious - Traya is more powerful, but less of a swordsman than Palpatine. If it comes to a contest of power, she is superior, but otherwise, Sidious might take this.

Then it'd proceed to...

Sidious vs. Dooku - Sidious is superior, long fight, but unless Sidious pulls an Anakin, he wins.

Alternate match-ups...I don't feel like doing.

Rex, how would Dooku take Bane? Bane is far better then Dooku. You have to remember that he was the most powerful Sith alive out of over 2,000 at Ruusan(it may have been 20,000, but I feel it's better to be conservative when making claims.) There weren't your run of the mill Sith either, they were battle hardened by the thousand year long war. Bane, after already being the strongest Sith, became more powerful when he got his suit and studied the writings in Nadd tomb. Remember that Bane can withstand a lightsaber strike even if Dooku manages to get a hit on him too, while if Bane hits Dooku the old man is down for the count. Also remember that the suit can pour adrenaline into Bane's vain when he needs it(ie. during combat).

Pfft, I don't know anything about Bane. But that just informed me.

Down with Traya and Dooku!

Ack, Traya seems fairly underestimated here.

uh, the other one wins. silimacon

So, skilled lightsaberists and high force users? Hmm, I think Sidious' team.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Ack, Traya seems fairly underestimated here.

Not at all. But her major power - the source of her strength - is derived from that instakill ability. Traya could conquer over perhaps all but DE Sidious and NJO Luke (depending who gets in the instakill in first), but without it - she's no match for everyone, Traya.

Sidious would kill her without that instakill, I think. So would Dooku. And Yoda. And Mace.

Originally posted by Escape81
Not at all. But her major power - the source of her strength - is derived from that instakill ability. Traya could conquer over perhaps all but DE Sidious and NJO Luke (depending who gets in the instakill in first), but without it - she's no match for everyone, Traya.

Sidious would kill her without that instakill, I think. So would Dooku. And Yoda. And Mace.

the instakill technique means absolutely nothing. She still tossed Zez Kai around she tossed Vrook and the other masters around like it was nothing. She killed a dozen Sith Assassins who all eat the force to weaken their opponents like Nihilus in a second. In the cut content she easily took care of every single one of the Exile his friends without even standing up.

Kreia is far more then just an insta kill technique and she is more then a match for all those names you just mentioned. She is not a lightsaber god like Mace but her force powers heavily surpass him Instakill or not, and force powers alone especially when used to attack somebody can be more then enough to decide a battle.

Sidious is the strongest Sith. Of all time. Stated fact in the EU. He pretty much every darkside and sith technique and the defenses.

As it is, he could finish off Traya rather easily and Dooku as well. The man is described as an 'Event Horizon' in the Force

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sidious is the strongest Sith. Of all time. Stated fact in the EU. He pretty much every darkside and sith technique and the defenses.

As it is, he could finish off Traya rather easily and Dooku as well. The man is described as an 'Event Horizon' in the Force

Lightsnake, he is described as such in the ROTS novel. Now, perhaps by the movies' standards, Sidious is the most powerful Sith. Indeed, none of the EU works here are canon - but this is still a section devoted to EU. Thus, people like Marka Ragnos and Revan exist and Exar Kun as well. And in some of these cases, they exhibit more power than Sidious.

I am including the EU and Sidious is the mightiest in the EU. Period. You do not know me here as I'm new, but I'm actively involved in other communities. Please do not try to educate me on the EU, I know huge amounts of it.

In the EU, Palpatine and Vader are described as the mightiest Sith of all time and in Dark Empire? A weaker Sidious devastates a REPUBLIC FLEET with his rage alone. There is nothing the others have done that is stronger than Sidious, nothing that can compare to him. In the sourcebooks? They say what I said about his power-the strongest of ALL TIME' directly.

And according to Mr. Kevin J Anderson, his Sith were not stronger than Sidious and Vader and the like. And according to Leland Chee, KOTOR is a 'legendary retelling' with quite a few things lost in translation. In response to complaints of continuity errors when it was added in the EU

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yeah. There were plenty of times when she could have used it, but didn't, so we need to believe that it is a limited power and she can use it only rarely.

Darth Tyranus only used Force choke once in the entire series. Should we conclude that he can only use it that one time? No. That's foolish.

For one, you don't know when else she's used it. There's a scene where the screen goes black on Malachor V and a bunch of Sith Assassins drop dead. It's possible she used it then. It's also possible that she used it other times too. To assume that she used it once and thus cannot use it often or again or to place made-up restrictions on it without proof is silly.

Two, obviously her regular Force powers are considerable.

Traya force pushed three jedi masters with amazing ease, and one of those she shoved again. Reasonably, Jedi who are aware of a Force push/pull threat can block it. Vrook didn't have a chance. He was slung back like a shot. Then he and the other two jedi masters were killed instantly using the same method of draining that Darth Nihilus uses, though I imagine his is far superior to hers. She also feigns death, senses happenings everywhere, predicts the future up to four thousand years in advance, has force sight, mastered force healing, was able to use force crush on people (As seen in the cut content.), could manipulate three lightsabers with relative ease.

Even without the force drain her powers are well beyond anything Bane or Sidious has demonstrated.

I think you're undercutting Darth Traya because you don't like the idea of her being quite as powerful as she really is in the series.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I am including the EU and Sidious is the mightiest in the EU. Period. You do not know me here as I'm new, but I'm actively involved in other communities. Please do not try to educate me on the EU, I know huge amounts of it.

In the EU, Palpatine and Vader are described as the mightiest Sith of all time and in Dark Empire? A weaker Sidious devastates a REPUBLIC FLEET with his rage alone. There is nothing the others have done that is stronger than Sidious, nothing that can compare to him. In the sourcebooks? They say what I said about his power-the strongest of ALL TIME' directly.

And according to Mr. Kevin J Anderson, his Sith were not stronger than Sidious and Vader and the like. And according to Leland Chee, KOTOR is a 'legendary retelling' with quite a few things lost in translation. In response to complaints of continuity errors when it was added in the EU

Wow. Serious movie fanboyism here. You sir, need to stick to the PT and OT sections of the forum. And who the hell is Leland Chee, that we should give a damn?

DE Sidious is a completely different matter to ROTS Sidious. Traya would probably lose to DE Sidious, but not after either terminally wounding him or almost killing him.

God, THIS IS EU....and you have no room to talk about fanboyism.

Mr. Leland Chee is the man Lucasarts put in charge of The Holocron...in other words, he's the reigning authority on Star Wars lore.

What you guys need to do? Pick open a book, read a little.

DE Sidious is the same as actual Sidious...most powerful sith ever. Stated by the sourcebook. Stated by Marka Ragnos according to the ol' sourcebooks.

I'm afraid you guys....really don't trump the official word

He has a point. Sidious was the one that the Ancient Sith Lords agreed who would lead them to their ultimate victory, according to Dark Empire.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I am including the EU and Sidious is the mightiest in the EU. Period. You do not know me here as I'm new, but I'm actively involved in other communities. Please do not try to educate me on the EU, I know huge amounts of it.

In the EU, Palpatine and Vader are described as the mightiest Sith of all time and in Dark Empire? A weaker Sidious devastates a REPUBLIC FLEET with his rage alone. There is nothing the others have done that is stronger than Sidious, nothing that can compare to him. In the sourcebooks? They say what I said about his power-the strongest of ALL TIME' directly.

And according to Mr. Kevin J Anderson, his Sith were not stronger than Sidious and Vader and the like. And according to Leland Chee, KOTOR is a 'legendary retelling' with quite a few things lost in translation. In response to complaints of continuity errors when it was added in the EU

There's no need for such a defensive attitude nor for the arrogance. You make good points, but your attitude is out of the question.

That's only the tip of the iceberg. the sourcebooks and other out of universe things have quite a bit to say about Sidious and the so called 'weaker' gang.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
DE Sidious is a completely different matter to ROTS Sidious. Traya would probably lose to DE Sidious, but not after either terminally wounding him or almost killing him.

There is no probably. He has done greater feats in this form, and has expressed far more powerful mastery of the Force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
God, THIS IS EU....and you have no room to talk about fanboyism.

Mr. Leland Chee is the man Lucasarts put in charge of The Holocron...in other words, he's the reigning authority on Star Wars lore.

What you guys need to do? Pick open a book, read a little.

DE Sidious is the same as actual Sidious...most powerful sith ever. Stated by the sourcebook. Stated by Marka Ragnos according to the ol' sourcebooks.

I'm afraid you guys....really don't trump the official word

You either provide a link with the information on it or shut the **** up. I've about had it with you playing mister badass here, like you're the only person who knows anything- which is of course incorrect.

Prove up or shut up.

Originally posted by Blind Guardian
You either provide a link with the information on it or shut the **** up. I've about had it with you playing mister badass here, like you're the only person who knows anything- which is of course incorrect.

Prove up or shut up.

Err... I had a hard time believing him as well. But then again, I don't see any proof that the likes of Ragnos is greater than Kun, but people argue it.

I cannot provide a link as most of my information is from books and maganizes and interviews. The closest I have to links are long dead threads from The Force.net
However, you have provided no points. You have been nothing but rude and insulting and I request you tone it down

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I cannot provide a link as most of my information is from books and maganizes and interviews. The closest I have to links are long dead threads from The Force.net
However, you have provided no points. You have been nothing but rude and insulting and I request you tone it down

You know, I like how you've just suddenly decided that Yoda is the second best jedi of all time, and that he can pwn all.... and that Sidious is the mightiest Sith all time and can pwn all... and that Vader can compete with people who can move circles around him and can pwn all...

And this is the evidence you provide:

I cannot provide a link as most of my information is from books and maganizes and interviews. The closest I have to links are long dead threads from The Force.net

You do not cite which books, you do not cite which magazines...... just a vague "Oh, it's out there, you need to read cuz you know nothing" response to every time I question your posts. And I question them because the only times I've ever heard such claims was from deluded movie fanboys, which you strike me as. All you have are links to another forum. As if TheForce.net's popular concensus is worth more than a real source.

So I request that you put something on the table for once.

Move circles around him? you got this from....where?

You strike me as nothing more than a flamer and basher who cannot back up anything and resorts to insults. Why don't you ask Cizal? Escape? Pwned? They could back my info up quite nicely

Escape and Pwned are pretty levelheaded people so from what I've seen who don't make grandiose statements and then just shirk on the whole "prove up" deal. You, however, cite TheForce.net (an unofficial fan site) and some random sourcebooks for role playing games and books you won't name. Why should I believe you?

Ask PWned and Cizal, since you're obviously not listening to anything I say. And grandiose statements such as 'Revan could take out Vader at his best?'

And TFN's a haven for officials in the SW business. Chee is a regular visitor, so are Jon Ostrander and quite a few others.

And sourcebooks not in continuity? Than I guess a lot of stuff they introduced isn't canon...I mean, they only provide detailed histories seperately from RPGs and the like....no, according to Steve Sansweet, they're in there

Obviously you don't read what I post...

In the other thread you clarified that your sourcebooks are Essential Guides, not RPG sourcebooks.

And you have YET to prove the credentials of these people.

No, I likened sourcebooks to essential guides. The Dark Empire sourcebook's a biggie, the NJO one.. The essential guide of chronology, Leland Chee himself, KJA, Star Wars insider..source enough for you?

Originally posted by Blind Guardian
Obviously you don't read what I post...

In the other thread you clarified that your sourcebooks are Essential Guides, not RPG sourcebooks.

And you have YET to prove the credentials of these people.

Did you not read this?

Do you not read what I write? Asked pwned or Cizal if you need clarification.

I'm done with you till you grow up, flamer

Dude, Traya's one of the strongest Jedi/Sith ever! Maybe even the strongest behind Nihilus. She alone might be able to beat Bane and Sidious. With Tyranus they pwn.

And Sidious is THE strongest Sith ever. Bane is also HIGHLY up there. Sidious would wreck Kreia in a force battle, that man is the embodiment of the Sith, the imbalance of the Force, the avatar of evil in Star Wars. He is the only Sith ever to overthrow and destroy the Jedi AND take the Galaxy. It took the Force itself to create a chosen one against him...and in the EU, you really don't want to get into some of the things he does there

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Sidious is THE strongest Sith ever. Bane is also HIGHLY up there. Sidious would wreck Kreia in a force battle, that man is the embodiment of the Sith, the imbalance of the Force, the avatar of evil in Star Wars. He is the only Sith ever to overthrow and destroy the Jedi AND take the Galaxy. It took the Force itself to create a chosen one against him...and in the EU, you really don't want to get into some of the things he does there

Go back to the movies forum or stop talking crap like that....

sidious is not the most powerful Sith Lord ever. He is weaker then most if not all of the older Sith Lords. Sidious will get pawned by the force and in a lightsaber fight by most of them. He is a politician not a warrior and not a fighter this debate has been done 2 million times and everytime you movie fanboys lost.

I would advise you to just accept that Sidious is a politician and move on, he's brilliant but he's no fighter.

No. Quite frankly, he is not. There is EU that states he is the strongest of all time. I advise you to stop listening to KOTOR so much. You want the sources that list Sidious as so incredibly powerful? Don;'t you tell me what 'crap' I'm talking. You want to debate me on this? Go ahead! But then why don't you tell Kevin J. Anderson, Leland chee, Marka Ragnos, numerous sorucebooks and comics that they're wrong? And Kevin Anderson CREATED those ancient Sith.

Don't call me a fanboy for defending what's right in Star Wars. Tell me what these ancient Sith did to compare to Palpatine in dark Empire. I'm waiting

Fishy, I'm going to try to remain as neutral as possible - but more sources label Sidious as the most powerful Sith of all time than any other Sith. Hell, Ragnos hasn't been called it once - save for the one comic book where he's featured.

Originally posted by Escape81
Fishy, I'm going to try to remain as neutral as possible - but more sources label Sidious as the most powerful Sith of all time than any other Sith. Hell, Ragnos hasn't been called it once - save for the one comic book where he's featured.

Greatest... Greatest he's called greatest a lot. And with that you can agree or disagree but he is one of the greatest the only one to ever succeed. DE Sidious is ranked amongst the most powerful, not the most powerful. Movie Sidious doesn't even come close to the most powerful...

Most powerful. He's called most powerful SPECIFICALLY a lot. And sorry, Sidious in general is called the most powerful, why isn't he now?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Most powerful. He's called most powerful SPECIFICALLY a lot. And sorry, Sidious in general is called the most powerful, why isn't he now?

Show me links. quote the actual text and page from the numerous books. Just saying the evidence exists means nothing.

Originally posted by Fishy
Show me links. quote the actual text and page from the numerous books. Just saying the evidence exists means nothing.

The Essential Chronology or whatever labels him as 'the most powerful Sith to exist'.

The Visual Guide for ROTS says that the Sith waited for one powerful enough to bring about their ultimate victory, and Sidious was it.

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Hmmm. I know it sounds completely unbelievable. . . but he does have more proof than any one else.

The only one who'd probably be comparable would be Ragnos himself

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The only one who'd probably be comparable would be Ragnos himself
Nihilus. He eats the Force for breakfast. And not just from one person, he sucks the force from entire civilizations in a matter of seconds. I don't see how Sidious, or anyone for that matter, could beat him.

Nihilius is a tricky chap, but he seems to need preparation to do what he does...we know next to nothing about him, though

"Seems to need"? No proof.

But anyway, some thoughts for you.

If Palpatine is more powerful than any other Sith, then why?:

Why didn't he beat the living daylights out of Mace Windu? George Lucas confirms on the DVD commentary that "Mace overpowers Sidious in this scene." ?

Why didn't he spawn a wormhole to suck Yoda into oblivion? If he is that powerful too, why did he try and run from Yoda? Also, how was Yoda able to deflect his lightning if he is so powerful?

How does Vader kill him? Surely if he was that powerful, He would have just imploded Vader's head or something.

Wht didn't he conjure up a force storm to; a) wipe out the Rebel fleet at Endor? Or b) wipe out the Jedi temple with it?

If Sidious is really powerful, then why does he have to ask for help from the Ancient Sith in the first place?

If Sidious is on a higher tier than Freddon Nadd, then why doesn't he conquer planets by himself? Nadd could do it with a blaster and a short lightsabre, Sidious has far more equipment, he could technically obliterate the rebels!

If Palpatine is so powerful, then why didn't he just kill Plageous outright? Killing someone in his sleep suggests that he was scared of his master.

-----

Answers please

Minus the tiny little detail that we SAW Nihilius do what he did when the team wrote their KOTOR comics.

1. He either thought Windu'd fall easy or wanted to buy time for Anakin to arrive and fake his weakness-According to George he did the latter. And overpowering was physical.

2. Because he was overconfident and the time it'd take to create a wormhole could be fatal. Not to mention Yoda looked down for the count and played possum and George Lucas sucks as a writer.

3. Gee, it was only Vader's DESTINY. Vader was a second behind Sidious, 1, had the Force backing him, 2 andSidious didn't know what the hell was going on, 3...he just managed to direct lightning to Vader before Vader tossed him.

4. You mean letting everyone know he was the Sith manipulating the war? Yes. Yes, that would be a BRILLIANT idea when you're focused on trying to eliminate the last Skywalker threat.

5. Well, when this is happening.....he's stuck in a last clone body that was tampered with so his mind and age are deteroriating and knowledge does not equal power when it comes to this scenario....if you were rotting of disease and couldn't even use a basic force push without speeding up the end of your life...

6. You know how Nadd conquered A planet? He did a little darkside display and was hailed as a God. That's it. I'm sure Palpatine'd want to make himself a walking target and have every ship in the galaxy begin turbolasering his palace.

7. Well, possibly because he was younger and weaker when he killed Plageuis? Could have something to do with it

Look, I will debate with you and so far, you have provided several good points. But stop being so bloody arrogant! It doesn't help.

No offense, traya, but you'll excuse me being a little annoyed with you after one of your posts so delicately suggested I commit suicide. I'll be glad to stop the arrogance, though.

Then I apologise for that post, sorry.

ill go with bane and sids, i dont know why, but i do.