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We have all labored under the delusion that Marka Ragnos or Exar Kun are perhaps the two most powerful Sith Lords alive. Or the other Ancient Sith, as well as the fanatic KOTOR fanboys who assume Revan is the most powerful guy walkin' - despite us knowing not a damn thing about him.

Lightsnake, a new member, came to the forums and may have changed all of that. He came saying that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to exist. A lot of us - including me, at first - were skeptical. But he has given more proof than any one else has regarding this issue.

He may have the proof that could change this entire debate. Strange, it seems. But let him speak his mind. If you don't have proof against him, shut the hell up and let him offer his.

Pleas elaborate on this "proof' he has given.

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

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Lucrative it may appear, Se7in, it is also far more proof given from any other source regarding who holds the highest position of power.

He's an arrogant person, I'll admit. But he's brave and dares to challenge the indoctrinization of 'Sidious sucks', in such a way that I'd not even cross. The difference is, he can back up his words. So far, all of his critics haven't been able to do that.

Let them come here. So far, he's outdone 'em.

I think all that about summed it up.

Thank you, Escape. I promise to confine the arrogance and insults. I open by saying a bold statement and will offer more if asked: Sidious is indeed the strongest of all time, confirmed in several sources, first in the original piece of EU Dark Empire. In that comic, Sidious manages to cheat death several times, forcing his spirit into other bodies. He devours the life force of six billion inhabitants of the world Byss but doesn't kill them, showing control. In addition, at the end, he squares off with Luke in combat and by this point, Luke is referred to as very powerful. Palpatine focuses his rage and annihilates a fleet of ships with a force storm.

There is never anything to indicate this is different from the Sidious we see in the trilogies.

Moreover, when he visits Korriban, he is hailed at by the Sith, mocked by several but in the end they acquiesce to his wish when he demands it of them, saying he gave up everything to the Dark Side...in another source, Dark Lord, I believe, it is revealed Sidious was prophesized as the greatest by the Ancient Sith themselves. The creator of the ancient Sith, Kevin Anderson, vile Dune destroying heretic he is, said he never intended Sidious to be below his creations.

Another argument is 'Why does he never show this in ROTS?"

Same reason why Yoda isn't leaping around Luke like a madman: Both technology constraints...and that he doesn't need to. We could have quiet control from sidious or he could milk a few giant cows, wave his arms and level some buildings...and with Yoda, vaporizing half of Coruscant would probably not be such a good idea.

I'll most certainly say Vader was weaker as was as a lot of Ancient Sith, but probably greater than a lot of others. At the boards I frequent, it's been a huge debate against him and Revan.

Lightsnake, it doesn't matter. I'm friends with a lot of the people you are arguing against, but that doesn't matter. As much as I respect Fishy and the others, they're going to have to shut the hell up unless they have proof against it.

So far, you've beat 'em all.

(Fishy, Blind Guardian, Traya, ect - A message. Lightsnake has more proof to this subject than you all have mustered. You've put him on the spot and such, and have insulted him. I do not tolerate his arrogance either, and he has promised to tone it down. So far though, he's kicked your asses on this debate. Sidious may just be the most powerful after all)

I will say this though: Ragnos, Kun, Revan and the like were undoubtedly power houses. A lot of what the ancients suffer from is KJA's terrible terms of scale (IE: The Sith War, the Great Hyperspace war) and his massive inflation of what the Force can do... (Ironically where a lot of Luke's stuff came from)

And this man paired up Luke with Callista. And Winter and Admiral ackbar..../bad/

While I'm at it: I do extend an apology to Fishy and Traya

Lightsnake, I do want to know something if you don't mind. Do you consider Sidious the strongest force user ever, or just the strongest sith. I assume you put NJO Luke above him, but I don't want to be to presumptuous.

The strongest Sith, definitely. I consider some people on the Jedi side to be his equal or better.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The strongest Sith, definitely. I consider some people on the Jedi side to be his equal or better.

I see, thank you

I would say strongest Sith, myself.

Good thing Ianus and Sorgo aren't here; they'd bash him until he bleeds from his fingertips from trying to type responses. *shakes head*

There's also the evidence that Sidious hid himself from the Jedi for years in plain sight, took control of the Republic by political means, and overthrew the Republic. No other Sith Lord did that, even with huge fleets and immense power.

Originally posted by Captain REX
I would say strongest Sith, myself.

Good thing Ianus and Sorgo aren't here; they'd bash him until he bleeds from his fingertips from trying to type responses. *shakes head*

There's also the evidence that Sidious hid himself from the Jedi for years in plain sight, took control of the Republic by political means, and overthrew the Republic. No other Sith Lord did that, even with huge fleets and immense power.

Ianus is the closest thing I have to a KMC mentor, who took me under his wings. I respect him a lot, but even then. . . Lightsnake has proof that no one has been able to dispute. Not even Ianus I think could win this debate. I like Sorgo too, but . . .

Regarding that. I'm not saying Sidious is head and shoulders above all of them. He has rivals. But you're right, Glen. All Sidious did to takeover the Republic was rely on his wits. He didn't need fleets or armies.

That's true....I once did a big parody on a board about that if any cares to see it.
"Sidious stole Palpatine's speeder!"
"Quick, check for fingerprints!"
"Damn, just Palpatine's....Sidious must have been wearing gloves..."

And Ianus and Sorgo? They are...?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's true....I once did a big parody on a board about that if any cares to see it.
"Sidious stole Palpatine's speeder!"
"Quick, check for fingerprints!"
"Damn, just Palpatine's....Sidious must have been wearing gloves..."

And Ianus and Sorgo? They are...?

Ianus ranks perhaps third or second amongst the SW EU debators. He is a good guy and all, and has a deep sense of humor. But he's also pretty stubborn at times, and it led to his banning . . . I hope he gets back. Sorgo's a pretty good guy too. He's a vicious debator. He makes you all look like Saints. He's pretty skilled and witty, but he is an immense Dooku fanboy. He and I have argued on that topic many times. He thinks that Dooku could take Sidious (despite my disagreeing). He is also banned.

EU Forums Debators.

1. Faunus
2. Ianus
3. IKC
4. Illustrious
5. Nai Fohl

These are the big five.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's true....I once did a big parody on a board about that if any cares to see it.
"Sidious stole Palpatine's speeder!"
"Quick, check for fingerprints!"
"Damn, just Palpatine's....Sidious must have been wearing gloves..."

And Ianus and Sorgo? They are...?

Respectively, number 1 and 2 on this board. Ianus is actually quite good, he generally bases his arguments on actual facts, not speculation. Though, he still seems to overhype the older sith a bit at times.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Respectively, number 1 and 2 on this board. Ianus is actually quite good, he generally bases his arguments on actual facts, not speculation. Though, he still seems to overhype the older sith a bit at times.

Sorgo's good. But he's no Number Two. I don't consider myself among the elite of the KMC debating session, despite others disagreeing with me. And I've beat Sorgo before. He's in the Top Ten. But not Number Two.

Originally posted by Escape81
Ianus ranks perhaps third or second amongst the SW EU debators. He is a good guy and all, and has a deep sense of humor. But he's also pretty stubborn at times, and it led to his banning . . . I hope he gets back. Sorgo's a pretty good guy too. He's a vicious debator. He makes you all look like Saints. He's pretty skilled and witty, but he is an immense Dooku fanboy. He and I have argued on that topic many times. He thinks that Dooku could take Sidious (despite my disagreeing). He is also banned.

EU Forums Debators.

1. Faunus
2. Ianus
3. IKC
4. Illustrious
5. Nai Fohl

These are the big five.

Really, I'd put sorgo up there, maybe not #2 as I originally put, But I've just never been fond of a couple of the guys you mentioned. meh, you know more about this board than I do of course.

While I agree Dooku rocks, take Sidious? That'd be quite a feat as he's below Yoda who's equal to Sidious and is the Apprentice...

Ah, but then....Count Dooku is truly Count Dracula, so that may tip the scales...

Originally posted by Pwned61
Really, I'd put sorgo up there, maybe not #2 as I originally put, But I've just never been fond of a couple of the guys you mentioned. meh, you know more about this board than I do of course.

Faunus is a complete badass when it comes to arguing. Many don't disagree with them, simply because he has no bias that I've seen. He states his point as fairly as possible.

Ianus is a heavyweight. IKC is another one, about equal to Ianus. Illustrious is a heavyweight, but he gets damn mean himself. Nai Fohl is a little less than Illustrious.

So, where would Faunus stand on Sidious and the sith?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
While I agree Dooku rocks, take Sidious? That'd be quite a feat as he's below Yoda who's equal to Sidious and is the Apprentice...

Ah, but then....Count Dooku is truly Count Dracula, so that may tip the scales...

Count Dooku is a skilled duelist and a powerful Force-user. He sure as hell isn't weak. But he was the apprentice and he feared Sidious. But Sorgo and Nai Fohl and Ianus (at times) all think Dooku could beat Sidious.

Originally posted by Pwned61
So, where would Faunus stand on Sidious and the sith?

Long story short . . . There used to be a lot of hype about Sidious and Anakin. Both were the idols of the KMC age. A lot of people grew to hate the characters because of this bias. So, a change occured. A lot of people ranked Sidious and Anakin to be very weak and foolish (yes. Sorgo and Nai Fohl have both argued that Sidious isn't as clever as people say). Faunus used to be a bit like that, and then Nai Fohl said that Obi-Wan and Anakin would tool Sidious in a duel - so Faunus learned to look at Sidious from a new light.

He has a pretty good standard of him.

Dooku well? Hell no. He's at least Mace's equal...I suppose is Sidious was exhausted and wounded to near death, but...

One of the biggest arguments was the topic on who really controlled The Confederacy. I argued that while Dooku did control the CIS to the public and such, it was actually Sidious who issued the commands to Dooku, General Grievous, and the Separatist Council - thus making him the de facto leader. But people have argued that, too . . .

Oh, undoubtedly Sidious really ruled the Confederacy....Dooku reported directly to him.

Yes, well, let's not duplicate that darn argument in here- it was all down to how people were defining things like 'running' and 'authority', at which point a debate becomes pointless.

Let's keep this one just about Sidious.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes, well, let's not duplicate that darn argument in here- it was all down to how people were defining things like 'running' and 'authority', at which point a debate becomes pointless.

et's keep this one just about Sidious.

Yes Lord Vadah (Sidious never pronounces 'er')

(whispers: Call me Your Majesty)

Fun fact: Ian McDiarmid, a trained stage actor never needed any sort of enhancement....all that creepy Palpy voice? That's all him

Originally posted by Pwned61
So, where would Faunus stand on Sidious and the sith?

Faunus would be attempting to find his place in the universe. . .

hello everyone

god its like I show up qnd everyone dissapears

Originally posted by Escape81
Ianus ranks perhaps third or second amongst the SW EU debators. He is a good guy and all, and has a deep sense of humor. But he's also pretty stubborn at times, and it led to his banning . . . I hope he gets back. Sorgo's a pretty good guy too. He's a vicious debator. He makes you all look like Saints. He's pretty skilled and witty, but he is an immense Dooku fanboy. He and I have argued on that topic many times. He thinks that Dooku could take Sidious (despite my disagreeing). He is also banned.

EU Forums Debators.

1. Faunus
2. Ianus
3. IKC
4. Illustrious
5. Nai Fohl

These are the big five.

Pfft. I'm nowhere near the top five debators on the forum. Janus, Illustrious, IKC, Nai, Sorgo, and yourself are all my superiors, and by no small amount. I thought we've had this discussion before. . .

As to the thread: I'm one for balance and realism, and the idea of Sidious being more powerful than someone like Ragnos or Kun is unbelievable. Things just don't add up. How would Sidious best Ragnos, but still be in danger of losing to Yoda? It makes no sense. Not to mention that in Dark Rendezvous, it is said that Sidious would be annihilated by Yoda should the Jedi Master turn to the Dark Side.

Meh. None of this makes sense, and this conclusion that many of you have reached turns everything topsy-turvy.

I think it's simple: Yoda is also mentioned as a being of extraordinary power in his light side incarnation. Why's it so hard to believe Yoda could be as strong as Sidious? The little green man could put most Sith and Jedi who aren't Skywalkers to shame. This just means Yoda is more powerful than originally thought.

How don't things add up? What did Kun every really do to trump Sidious? What did Ragnos actually DO that wasn't hearsay? This does make sense, and that sense is: Sidious is more powerful than appeared and didn't flaunt his power incredibly due to budget constraints. Yoda is as powerful as him and is stronger than those other Sith. What's the issue?

Faunus, I originally thought like you . . . But the point is that his proof has negated all others. There hasn't been proof for the others.

My thought is that the movie Jedi were definitely powerhouses, but just because we don't see true example doesn't mean they don't exist...hell, Yoda lived two decades next to an example of pure darkside energy on Dagobah, that's gotta count for something

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Pfft. I'm nowhere near the top five debators on the forum. Janus, Illustrious, IKC, Nai, Sorgo, and yourself are all my superiors, and by no small amount. I thought we've had this discussion before. . .

As to the thread: I'm one for balance and realism, and the idea of Sidious being more powerful than someone like Ragnos or Kun is unbelievable. Things just don't add up. How would Sidious best Ragnos, but still be in danger of losing to Yoda? It makes no sense. Not to mention that in Dark Rendezvous, it is said that Sidious would be annihilated by Yoda should the Jedi Master turn to the Dark Side.

Meh. None of this makes sense, and this conclusion that many of you have reached turns everything topsy-turvy.

It doesn't matter. There's proof that supports this.

Proof that conflicts with other proof, yes.

What's this other proof, Faunus? I'm curious as to why you think Yoda seems a lightweight

It's worth noting the only proof we have to the real power of the ancient Sith is a comic which doesn't really portray them as all that and an obscure quote from a lying manipulator...

Let Faunus speak. He's a damn good debator. If he is against this, then there's something there. But he needs to present it.

Yoda isn't a lightweight. He's arguably the best of his time, no question. But your proof is strictly quotes. You have books and people saying Sidious is the strongest. The evidence against him is in accomplishment and ability.

Yes, GL says Sidious is the strongest and that the PT Jedi are the strongest, and by canonical standards he has the right to say what is and what isn't. But I refuse to believe that. I don't view SW by the canonical views, I view it as what makes sense. I think about it in real-world examples. Such as, I believe the Old Sith and Jedi are leagues ahead of the PT Jedi and Sith just as swordsman today are much worse than ancient swordsman. Think about it, the galaxy is at peace for so long, Jedi no longer need strength and martial ability. Just as beliefs become diluted and less potent generation after generation, the power of the Jedi and Sith has become the same.

why would the old Jedi be stronger at all? They never really displayed much greater feats....and what Lucas says goes....I generally hate a lot of it, but he IS the boss.

What accomplishment and ability though? Accomplishment? He is the ONLY Sith to wipe out the JEdi order completely. Any other time ir survived, but he is the only one Sith to rip it apart, destroy the Republic and actually take the galaxy. Ability? He destroyed a FLEET. He devoured the energy of billions, he destroyed a large group of Stormtroopers with force lightning alone. I'd really like to know what this evidence against Sidious and Yoda is.

The thing is, there isn't much presentable proof that goes against this. Most of it is from a mindset that won't budge, and logical analysis.

If Sidious is as powerful in ROTS as he was in DE, why didn't he just summon a wormhole to warp Yoda in the void of space?

If Sidious is more wise and powerful than the Sith of old, why he did he need their guidance and knowledge to keep himself alive when his clone body deteriorated?

If Sidious is the most powerful Sith of all time, why does the databank describe him as such:

He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.

Shouldn't it address him as 'the most powerful practitioner of all time'?

More to the point, why WOULD he? Why wipe out half of Coruscant, revealing to everyone else that he's fighting Master Yoda with a lightsaber.

I'd say talking to the Ancient Sith who were links to the Dark Side itself, just as Obi ghost could be a link to the Force would be a good diea. Sidious as at the end of his rope with only a bit of life left to him.

No clue on the databank there.

My question is: What'd the Ancient Sith do that was so great? They stagnated horribly. Sure Ragnos was feared, but he was scared to attack the Republic, he knew they couldn't beat the Jedi and the Republic forces. The only thing we have is Kreia's quote, and I ask you what the old Jedi have done that was so much greater?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
More to the point, why WOULD he? Why wipe out half of Coruscant, revealing to everyone else that he's fighting Master Yoda with a lightsaber.

The wormholes can be localized, as shown in DE. He would have been able to rid himself of Yoda while the Jedi was unconcious on the floor. But why didn't he, I wonder. . .



It was a good idea, and one that saved his life. But my question is 'why would he'? If he is more knowledgeable and and powerful in the ways of the Dark Side, why waste precious days traveling to Korriban and consulting the spirits of the Ancients? Wouldn't he have been able to figure out what to do on his own? Or how to do it?



The maybe I'm making progress.



Ragnos was smart. He didn't allow his people to tread beyond the Sith territories because he didn't want to get involved with the Republic in any way, shape, or form. Naga Sadow and his possy actually managed to inflict some damage on the Republic's forces, and likely would have done better had Kressh cooperated.

And I'm not one for the whole 'Every Old Jedi > Every Modern Jedi'. I personally hold Yoda to be the most powerful Jedi of any before him. He has his equals, and a superior or two, in the New Jedi Order, but those are very few.

Of the old Order, I believe only Vodo could successfully contend with him, and even that to a limited effect.

EDIT

1. When Yoda was on the floor, Sidious was savoring the moment...or Yoda played dead....if you want another explanation, a wizard did it and Lucas wanted dramatic effect. Why didn't Grievous use those sabers better? Why didn't Mace just twitch instead of pulling his saber back? Why didn't Jango duck? Why did Vader chuck a saber at Luke? Or yank simply punch him out during a saber lock?

2. Power doesn't exactly equate to knowledge that only those in direct connection to the force itself would know....I could be a great warrior and wizard, but I'd still need to chat with a seer from time to time. Figuring things out could take time and effort, two things he relly couldn't afford to spare. He couldn't even use his powers without screwing up the clone....and add that to the fact the clone bit had made him totally lose his mind...

3. Sadow didn't inflict THAT much damage and if he did, it was military force, no Sith power. Ragnos's brains hardly equate to power either...he KNEW the Sith weren't strong enough to attack the Jedi and Republic. Moreover, until Gav and Jori Daragon arrived, the Sith had totally forgotten the Republic....Sadow's ground forces consisted of Massassi mainly and some Sith commanders...the bulk of the force was only illusion

I suppose he could be considered the strongest since he took over the galaxy, but in a fight there's no way he could beat Nihilus, who eats the force from entire planets matters of seconds.

Makes sense. Did you know that Palpatine also did a mind trick on General Grievous?

Nihilius needs concentration to activate that kind of thing...in an actual fight, Palpatine'd kill him, or trick him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When Yoda was on the floor, Sidious was savoring the moment...or Yoda played dead.

2. Power doesn't exactly equate to knowledge that only those in direct connection to the force itself would know....I could be a great warrior and wizard, but I'd still need to chat with a seer from time to time. Figuring things out could take time and effort, two things he relly couldn't afford to spare. He couldn't even use his powers without screwing up the clone....and add that to the fact the clone bit had made him totally lose his mind...

3. Sadow didn't inflict THAT much damage and if he did, it was military force, no Sith power. Ragnos's brains hardly equate to power either...he KNEW the Sith weren't strong enough to attack the Jedi and Republic. Moreover, until Gav and Jori Daragon arrived, the Sith had totally forgotten the Republic....Sadow's ground forces consisted of Massassi mainly and some Sith commanders...the bulk of the force was only illusion

1) Okay. . . he could have savored the though of Yoda's body floating in the vaccuum of space, couldn't he? Why would he risk his own death for something so foolish?

2) Technically, if he didn't know as much as the Ancients, he was as versatile and, in means other than raw potential, as powerful as the Ancients. It'd be like Anakin to Mace. The former certainly has more raw, untapped power, but he lacks the knowledge to use it. If this is the case with the Emperor, he's not all-powerful.

3) No, he didn't. But my point was that had Ludo assisted Sadow, and had they collaborated, they may have really challenged the Republic through brute force, as Revan did.

Originally posted by Escape81
Makes sense. Did you know that Palpatine also did a mind trick on General Grievous?

When was this?



Proof?

1. Evil Villain Syndrome. Every movie villain has it, from goldfinger, to Palpatine to Malak and Sadow...it was likely Palp thought Yoda was dead, too.

2. Like I said: His mind was crumbling, he was desperate, at the end of his rope. He needed people DIRECTLY in tune with the Force. He didn't have that in his currently state. The Ancients, if alive, couldn't have helped him a bit. Knowledge only somone dead and connected to the force can know isn't a demerit

3. They COULD have, but signs point to the idea they'd be taken out...Teta's forces alone would've outmassed them probably. The Jedi and Coruscant? Dead Sith forces

1) Or, he couldn't. You can't try to argue P.I.S. here, Lightsnake. And I doubt that Sidious thought Yoda to be dead. It'd take a blind fool to make that kind of mistake.

2) Alright, then, have it your way. If he was desperate and, in his state, weak enough, I suppose it's acceptable that he consult others. That renders the entire Point 2 debate moot.

3) I doubt that a surprised and unprepared Republic would outright own the combined power of two Dark Lords and their illusionary powers. It'd be like the worst case of deja vu possible, except that one of any number of illusions would spew turbolasers at you.

P.S. -- Do you yet have anything to say about the Databank point? Or can I consider that a standing point?

1. That or Yoda was good at it. Let's pass this one off as 'movie cliche' and move on.

2. Indeed.

3. They weren't unprepared. Thanks to Jori Daragon...and Gav'd end up betraying Ludo and Sadow, breaking the illusion anyways....

You can use the databank point...was it in the movie or EU section?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
When was this?

Labyrinth of Evil. The final chapter.

1) Well, I'd like to, but that would imply that Sidious in ROTS can create wormholes, which I don't believe.

3) Possibly, yes. I'm not saying that the two Sith would have won. But you cannot deny that they would have inflicted some heavy losses on the Republic and the Jedi.

Funny thing was, it was in the EU section, which is why I consider it so important.

OH, and Nihilius had to immobilize Exile's gang before he tried feeding...problem is, we know a VERY small amount about Nihilius...though it was implied that planet eating wasn't such a thing he could pull out of a hat

1. I say blame Lucas, play character cliches and blame Sidious not wanting risk people noting wormholes....force storms are VERY destructive things.

3. Probably, but eventually, Ludo and Naga would've been crushed....hell, Ludo and Naga couldn't have worked together for long.

That's so, for the Databank thing...though it's a point against others, and the databank's lacked credibility for a while now....since it refuses to add a lotr of people...

At least I think it's a mind trick.

Palpatine told Grievous when the general captured him that he wasn't going to be put on the HoloNet. Grievous repeated the words as if in an order. But Grievous didn't know Palpatine was Sidious, so it had to be a mind trick.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I say blame Lucas, play character cliches and blame Sidious not wanting risk people noting wormholes....force storms are VERY destructive things.

3. Probably, but eventually, Ludo and Naga would've been crushed....hell, Ludo and Naga couldn't have worked together for long.

That's so, for the Databank thing...though it's a point against others, and the databank's lacked credibility for a while now....since it refuses to add a lotr of people...

1) Wormholes could also be blamed on Yoda. I'm not going to give up on this particular subject if it fetches me a good point.

3) Perhaps in the end, yes. But not without a fight.

It just added six articles.

If you mean the lack of databanks for characters like Revan and Ragnos, there really isn't enough tangible evidence and info on the two, especially the former.

1. Yes, but it could also be an effective suicide. Those things tore apart a fleet....at closer proximity? Palpatine'd be ripped to shreds, along with the entire building.

2. Not without a fight, no.

I mean lack on lots of entries completely...

Originally posted by Escape81
At least I think it's a mind trick.

Palpatine told Grievous when the general captured him that he wasn't going to be put on the HoloNet. Grievous repeated the words as if in an order. But Grievous didn't know Palpatine was Sidious, so it had to be a mind trick.

I don't think it was. I don't have the book on hand at the moment, due to carelessness on my part, but I'll be sure to check that part when I find it. However, I never picked up anything that would imply a mind trick.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I don't think it was. I don't have the book on hand at the moment, due to carelessness on my part, but I'll be sure to check that part when I find it. However, I never picked up anything that would imply a mind trick.

I don't have the book on hand either.

The line went something like:

Palpatine's voice took on a sinister tone when it spoke next.

"You can display me on the HoloNet, but I will not speak."

"That is correct. I will display you live on the HoloNet but you won't speak."

"Good."

"Good."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Yes, but it could also be an effective suicide. Those things tore apart a fleet....at closer proximity? Palpatine'd be ripped to shreds, along with the entire building.

2. Not without a fight, no.

I mean lack on lots of entries completely...

1) Force storms, yes. But localized wormholes such as the ones Sidious used to transport Luke halfway across the galaxy. Unless I'm mistakedn Sidious didn't quite tear apart Coruscant's city-scape then.

You man send his enemy into a hiding position where Yoda could return much more stealthily?

And when he transported Luke, Luke was quite willing...transporting a guy near to or equal to his power may not work so well

Oh my god...I left the forums a month ago with everyone attached to their blind faith the old sith were the best and when I return there is a hero among us...Lightsnake I salute you. You have brought a new knowledge to this forum that I could not.

Geez...your lucky Janus is not here Lightsnake...

I just want to point out here that anyone who has their own opinion that differs from that of George Lucas...

... well, of course, you are free to have your opinion. But I want to point out that, in any official sense, your opinion holds absolutely no value whatsoever, and is purely personal.

We are concerned here with an official franchise, not a fan-created one, or anything like that. Within that franchise, there are facts, Many are misty and hard to determine, which is why sometimes you have to examine the evidence to come up with the best conclusion that you can.

But if facts are STATED- by, say, GL, or as Lightsnake has also pointed out, the author of the stories in question... then that is the end of the matter. The fact has been stated, and then any other evidence has to be viewed and re-assessed in light of that fact, or possibily rejected altogether as incorrect- as has happened before in the EU, from Splinter onwards.

Hence... if GL has indeed said that Sidious is the strongest of all time, or the creator of the Sith Lords in question has stated that he did not intend them to be greater than Sidious... then that's it. Argument over.

Assuming these statements did indeed happen, then anyone who thinks otherwise is simply, in any official sense, wrong.

Kevin J. Anderson stated that his Exar Kun was to be on a lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

At least we recently found out that Sidious may have known almost all ways of lightsaber fighting wich he could use to confuse or surprise his opponents. This is probably the idea in him immediately slaying the jedi masters wich entered the room.
And if it's true, then I assume that he was even far superior to even Dooku.. Of course everybody can slip up. But I think the whole idea behind the character Sidious is that he is indeed the master tutor in lightsaber dueling.

The thing that annoys me the most is that there has come a general notion on the forums here strictly against Sidious and also Vader because of negotiating and agreeing with so called 'master debators' wich lead to people immediately spouting out stuff like "this one>that one" without feeling a need to give arguments and if you do go against it, then you're just considered crazy.
The board gets a little too aggressive some times when it comes to different opinions as if its a matter of life and death.

At least we recently found out that Sidious may have known almost all ways of lightsaber fighting wich he could use to confuse or surprise his opponents. This is probably the idea in him immediately slaying the jedi masters wich entered the room.
And if it's true, then I assume that he was even far superior to even Dooku.. Of course everybody can slip up. But I think the whole idea behind the character Sidious is that he is indeed the master tutor in lightsaber dueling.

Ah, Pure bullshit.

Sidious knowing of all Lightsaber Forms? Why didn't he defeat Yoda or Mace Windu then? I don't give me this circumstantial shit that Sidious faked the fight because George Lucas says he does not and if you read Ushgarak's post or if you have a shred of Intelligence (Or you don't have the IQ of a five year old) Then you'll know the Man was defeated by Windu fairly.

He couldn't break past Yoda's defense to defeat him. Or was he faking that fight too? The man didn't know all the forms of Lightsaber Combat. That's an outrageous statement.

The thing that annoys me the most is that there has come a general notion on the forums here strictly against Sidious and also Vader because of negotiating and agreeing with so called 'master debators' wich lead to people immediately spouting out stuff like "this one>that one" without feeling a need to give arguments and if you do go against it, then you're just considered crazy.
The board gets a little too aggressive some times when it comes to different opinions as if its a matter of life and death.


^ Okay.

Originally posted by Escape81
Kevin J. Anderson stated that his Exar Kun was to be on a lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

This man prints various Star Wars Novels, correct?

Haven't Novelists been known to create books sometimes due in favor of a Character they like?

Does this Novelist have any relation to Lucasfilm? Or Lucasarts?

Haven't a variety of Star Wars books contradicted Movie fact time and time again?


What proof does some Novelist give us? None!

The only slice of Star Wars he gives us is the knowledge he has gathered and his personal opinion at best.

Originally posted by Ezekiel
This man prints various Star Wars Novels, correct?

Haven't Novelists been known to create books sometimes due in favor of a Character they like?

Does this Novelist have any relation to Lucasfilm? Or Lucasarts?

Haven't a variety of Star Wars books contradicted Movie fact time and time again?


What proof does some Novelist give us? None!

The only slice of Star Wars he gives us is the knowledge he has gathered and his personal opinion at best.

He created Exar Kun.

Kevin J. Anderson was the novelist to come up with the concept of Exar Kun. Therefore it is his creation. And he stated plainly that Kun was to be on a lower tier than Emperor Palpatine. Sorry.

Oh, Mr. Anderson did far more than create Exar Kun. He created Ulic, he created Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Naga Sadow...his comics, Tales of the Jedi were what allowed KOTOR to even exist. That was one of the few times Lucas took interest and shared his concepts with Anderson.

Palpatine may be stronger in the force than Mace, but Windu is a better duelist, much younger and uses a style Sidious couldn't have known-And according to Nick Gillard, Sidious is a master of every weapon and style, though we're to assume it means no Vaapad. Plus, the fight wasn't over yet any more than it was whenMaul had Obi-wan on the ropes.
Lucas meant to show that Yoda and Palpatine were dead equals in the fight as well and in the ROTS novelization, Yoda realizes he cannot win and he'll die if the fight continues.

Just because you KNOW a lot of forms doesn't mean you're gonna beat a guy who's a master and your equal. Mace and Dooku anyone? Qui-Gon and Maul?

Sidious knowing of all Lightsaber Forms? Why didn't he defeat Yoda or Mace Windu then? I don't give me this circumstantial shit that Sidious faked the fight because George Lucas says he does not and if you read Ushgarak's post or if you have a shred of Intelligence (Or you don't have the IQ of a five year old) Then you'll know the Man was defeated by Windu fairly.

He couldn't break past Yoda's defense to defeat him. Or was he faking that fight too? The man didn't know all the forms of Lightsaber Combat. That's an outrageous statement.

You are acting like it would mean that he would win every fight by default if he indeed knew it.
Fact is, that the best duelist doesn't always win and Mace obviously wasn't impressed by the insane moves of Sidious and he overcame him somehow.

But Sidious can indeed know a whole lot of lightsaber styles and I believe it was Gillard or someone who stated that Sidious knows them all.
It does contain some logic because he was Maul's tutor and must have known the form Maul uses to teach him and Sidious himself displayed features performed in Ataru and a whole lot of other arguments wich are cited in the thread with this actual topic.
It is indeed very highly probable that theory is fact.

But of course knowing all forms or even being the best doesn't always mean that one wins as shown in SW countless times but I'm sure Escape already pointed this out to you but I'm too hung over and lazy to read everything.

But I think that Sidious was probably the best and most experienced tutor followed closely by Yoda.

Originally posted by Escape81
Kevin J. Anderson was the novelist to come up with the concept of Exar Kun. Therefore it is his creation. And he stated plainly that Kun was to be on a lower tier than Emperor Palpatine. Sorry.

This could open the possibility that Exar Kun may even be Non-Canon Bullshit like the NJO, Correct?

His creation has no relevance to Lucasfilm, so therefore it could be considerable that he doesn't really matter. Although he was mentioned... In some game... that's about it.


I honestly couldn't care a less about Palpatine.


All I see is a few Fanboys going restlessly crazy because everyone didn't center themselves around the character that basically owned the SWU.

No offense, but Sidious being almost the most important and popular character, not many are going to want to pay much attention to him... At all.

Oh, Mr. Anderson did far more than create Exar Kun. He created Ulic, he created Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Naga Sadow...his comics, Tales of the Jedi were what allowed KOTOR to even exist. That was one of the few times Lucas took interest and shared his concepts with Anderson.

^ All have considerate proof of being Non-Canon. Thanks for the list.

Palpatine may be stronger in the force than Mace, but Windu is a better duelist, much younger and uses a style Sidious couldn't have known-And according to Nick Gillard, Sidious is a master of every weapon and style, though we're to assume it means no Vaapad. Plus, the fight wasn't over yet any more than it was whenMaul had Obi-wan on the ropes.
Lucas meant to show that Yoda and Palpatine were dead equals in the fight as well and in the ROTS novelization, Yoda realizes he cannot win and he'll die if the fight continues.

Yoda? Die? Hah! That's quite the laugh considering he had an upper hand for a number of times during the fight and had Sidious running out of his Office during the beginning.

He left because he had just fallen over two-hundred feet onto a Cold steel floor after HIS OWN POWERFUL BLAST caused him to do so.

Just because he knew all the Forms does not make him some Uber-Superior duelist to ANYONE in that entire series.

For all you know, he knows LITTLE BITS from each form. He couldn't have mastered all of them, let alone even one considering a life time of plotting and learning how to be so powerful in the Dark side of the Force and know so much knowledge.

Sure he was good. But reason being is because he took LITTLE BITS from each Form and combined them together.

1. You're right, Ragnos and the like aren't canon, what's your point?

2. Oh, gee, let's just review Palpatine's psychology....would YOU risk a duel to the death just sprung on you against your equal after decades of planning have come together? And yeah, Yoda realized he'd die if the fight continued. Want the quote and page number?

3. HIS own powerful blast? I'd say his attempted suicide/failed block screwed up.

4. Yeeeeah, I did kinda SAY knowing all the forms didn't make you a master-Gillard said he was a master of every style though...I could find that quote too.

5. Wait, so during that life of the dark side, Plageuis never taught him to fight and he never learned himself? Shall I find the quote?

Sorgo, please shut the hell up.

Kevin J. Anderson created Kun. He then went on to say Kun is weaker than Sidious. Deal with it.

He's one to speak of fanboyism. Jesus, you wrote the damn book on Dooku fanboyism.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sorgo, please shut the hell up.

Kevin J. Anderson created Kun. He then went on to say Kun is weaker than Sidious. Deal with it.

What the hell is a Sorgo?


Of course he created Kun! No one honestly argued that.

The fact remains that a Novelist isn't going to convince me of this when so very many people have been saying that Ancient Sith Lords had greater powers.

Kreia said it too. Hopefully you've played the games?

Originally posted by Escape81
He's one to speak of fanboyism. Jesus, you wrote the damn book on Dooku fanboyism.


You don't even know me! Who gave you the right to say such things? Honestly?

1. Kevin J. Anderson created Exar Kun. He created the character. So it is ultimately up to him where his level of power lies. According to Lightsnake, Anderson stated that his Sith were below the tier of power that Emperor Palpatine is on. Gonna dispute this with the guy who made the damn character up?

2. Yoda and Sidious were equally matched. Sidious had a fear of Yoda simply because, on a deep level, the man's a damn coward. I've asked you this question before. Why in the hell would Sidious want to square off against a being who is his equal, when his plans just came full circle? None!

3. Don't accuse us of fanboyism. You're the poster child for it.

Originally posted by Ezekiel
You don't even know me! Who gave you the right to say such things? Honestly?

Sorgo, your avatar and signature are the same on the Dark Tower forums. So please . . . shut up. Not to mention your style of arguing hasn't improved, and other threads have shown your intense Dooku fanboyism.

You know what this novelist did? He. Created. The. ANCIENTS! WHO'S been saying they have greater powers?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You know what this novelist did? He. Created. The. ANCIENTS! WHO'S been saying they have greater powers?

Kreia. Of course, Kreia's words hold more weight than the guy who made it. Sorry, this is Sorgo-logic you're dealing with.

2. Oh, gee, let's just review Palpatine's psychology....would YOU risk a duel to the death just sprung on you against your equal after decades of planning have come together? And yeah, Yoda realized he'd die if the fight continued. Want the quote and page number?

Oh my god. PLEASE! Do not even try to throw the ROTS Novelisation on the table in this arguement. ESPECIALLY that particular book. It's of no relevance and is completely disregarded.

Isn't he the one who decided to throw a few strings of Lightning at Yoda? Didn't he risk a fight with Mace Windu? Either he sorely underestimated his opponents with the Arrogance that gets him killed later on in his life OR he knew of the consequences yet still fought them both.... Even if he did lose once and had potential of losing a secondary time.

3. HIS own powerful blast? I'd say his attempted suicide/failed block screwed up.

Of course he attempted suicide....

4. Yeeeeah, I did kinda SAY knowing all the forms didn't make you a master-Gillard said he was a master of every style though...I could find that quote too.

NOT a Master. He would have raped EVERYBODY in the damned series.

5. Wait, so during that life of the dark side, Plageuis never taught him to fight and he never learned himself? Shall I find the quote?

A reliable quote by George Lucas that Darth Plageuis did indeed exist? Do show.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sorgo, your avatar and signature are the same on the Dark Tower forums. So please . . . shut up. Not to mention your style of arguing hasn't improved, and other threads have shown your intense Dooku fanboyism.


Dark Tower Forums? What the hell is this shit you claim? Please. Get rid of yourself.

1. You mean when Windu CONFRONTED him? You mean GET THE DROP ON TO KILL YODA? When he realized Yoda was better than he fouht, he tried to make the advantage him...and considering Yoda didn't kill him, HMMMM

2. Yoda screwed up that little explosion, no matter what he'd intended.

3. YES a master. You want to take it up with Nick Gillard?

4. Yes, indeed, reliable quotes on Plageuis from the Essential Chronology. Want the page number and excerpt?

Originally posted by Escape81
Kreia. Of course, Kreia's words hold more weight than the guy who made it. Sorry, this is Sorgo-logic you're dealing with.





Does that matter? I am sure a Novelist has more relevance to Canon than Lucasfilm/Lucasarts.


Right... Exar Kun exists? Of course...

1. You mean when Windu CONFRONTED him? You mean GET THE DROP ON TO KILL YODA? When he realized Yoda was better than he fouht, he tried to make the advantage him...and considering Yoda didn't kill him, HMMMM

The "Drop to kill" Yoda? He knew of Yoda's power! What kind of moron underestimates someone as powerful as Yoda? Oh... SIDIOUS.

Windu did confront him and did defeat him.

Sidious was an arrogant hypocritical sap who tried to jet when he saw that Yoda got back up from his blast. He knew Yoda was a threat and Yoda stopped him from leaving and nearly defeated him. Mace? Well, he was interrupted. Sidious was nearly defeated twice during that damned Movie.

2. Yoda screwed up that little explosion, no matter what he'd intended.

Where are your Quotes Now? Show me one of your Quotes that can throw this Opinion of yours higher up than just a Theory?

3. YES a master. You want to take it up with Nick Gillard?
Sure. What's his number again?

4. Yes, indeed, reliable quotes on Plageuis from the Essential Chronology. Want the page number and excerpt?


Can you get this from Lucas? Can you find Plageius' Character in the Database? Is there any EU Material involving him? Can you find any venerable proof besides pieces of a tree? Or No?

1. Kevin J. Anderson created Exar Kun. He created the character. So it is ultimately up to him where his level of power lies. According to Lightsnake, Anderson stated that his Sith were below the tier of power that Emperor Palpatine is on. Gonna dispute this with the guy who made the damn character up?

Pardon me while I go create a Character.

I will call him "Darth Gooner" And he is more powerful than Sidious because I said so. The creator of the Star Wars has no authority over this because I am a Novelist and this means this character is 100% CANON TO THE BONE!

2. Yoda and Sidious were equally matched. Sidious had a fear of Yoda simply because, on a deep level, the man's a damn coward. I've asked you this question before. Why in the hell would Sidious want to square off against a being who is his equal, when his plans just came full circle? None!

When did you ask me this question? Have I known you previously somewhere, Escape? TF.net? SW.com?

3. Don't accuse us of fanboyism. You're the poster child for it.

What is up your ass, Guy? I am no "Posterboy".

1. Moron? He sure got the better of Dooku. But then again, the Count never was a bright guy, was he?

2. Because he's a coward.

3. Sidious fired the energy, and Yoda put it back. Yoda got the worst end of the fall, leaving the battle as a stalemate.

4. He's mentioned in the databank under Palpatine's entry, smartass.

1. Moron? He sure got the better of Dooku. But then again, the Count never was a bright guy, was he?

Not really. I could agree he was quite stupid. I mean for Lord's sake he lost to a Jedi Knight. Are we even talking about Darth Tyranus? What relevance does he hold, guy?

2. Because he's a coward.

Or because his Skills were unparalleled compared to Yoda's and Maces. Did that ever occur to you? Or does Fanboyism seem to push you away from that?

3. Sidious fired the energy, and Yoda put it back. Yoda got the worst end of the fall, leaving the battle as a stalemate.

Sidious had pods behind him. Sidious fired the energy and Yoda absorbed it and fired it back with a blend of his own caliber of energy, pushing him and Sidious off the podium.

4. He's mentioned in the data bank under Palpatine's entry, smartass.

Watch your tongue. I haven't insulted you once. Just because he was mentioned in some dorky data bank and the Movie doesn't mean he freakin' exists. It could have been one of Sidious' MANY lies.

1. Wow, do you have the go-ahead and assistance from Lucas and his company? No? Good.

2. Yeah, great, so why was Sidious matching Yoda?

3. And by 'pushing his energy back' Yoda screwed up/

4. Mentioned in databank, Essential Chronology, Dark Lord novel.....I'd think your argument for Plageuis not existing is down the tubes. And yeah, Essential Chronology is EU material involving him

5. One moment while I find that Nick Gillard quote:
He was asked if Sidious a Master of the Lightsaber? Or is he more of a "Force Lightning" guy? He said Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style.

http://comingsoon.net/news/topnews.php?id=7720

1. Wow, do you have the go-ahead and assistance from Lucas and his company? No? Good.

Contradiction is beautiful. Truly.

2. Yeah, great, so why was Sidious matching Yoda? 3. And by 'pushing his energy back' Yoda screwed up/

NO! He absorbed it and then used a Two-handed Push combined with his power and Sidious', it kicked them both off the Podium. Yoda going farther because he is THREE FEET TALL AND LESS THAN 90 POUNDS!

4. Mentioned in databank, Essential Chronology, Dark Lord novel.....I'd think your argument for Plageuis not existing is down the tubes. And yeah, Essential Chronology is EU material involving him

Down the tubes? Where is he in the EU? Why didn't they give out more information? Why is he only mentioned in the Databank? You have no stone clad proof this Man/Woman exists.

5. One moment while I find that Nick Gillard quote:
He was asked if Sidious a Master of the Lightsaber? Or is he more of a "Force Lightning" guy? He said Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style.

http://comingsoon.net/news/topnews.php?id=7720


^ Nice broken link.

Oh okay the Link works nev....

Comingsoon.net?

Tell me you can do better than this. Why isn't the commentary on Video or Audio? Is there any pictures of Nick Gillard partaking in an interview? Hasn't comingsoon.net lied about their news before?


Heh... Please, guy.

Done here for now, boys.

Christmas day.

Have a merry christmas.

1. *Yawn* Yeah, when you get comissioned at Lucasarts, maybe your comments'll be worth a damn.

2. And this isn't a screw up on Yoda's part....why?

3. Want the Essential Chronology quote? And why don't Kyle Katarn and Jerec have databank entries? Why doesn't Overlord Shimrra?

4. http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp

Read it and weep

Originally posted by Captain REX
I would say strongest Sith, myself.

There's also the evidence that Sidious hid himself from the Jedi for years in plain sight, took control of the Republic by political means, and overthrew the Republic.

No other Sith Lord did that, even with huge fleets and immense power.

Well, there were ancient Sith Lords who've headed Empires and have maintained control way longer that Palpatine maintained Imperial power.

You mean a fully isolated empire full of Sith and not anything clsoe to ruling the entire galaxy? Not one other Sith ever took the Republic or wiped out the Jedi order

Oh.. My.. God.. What the hell happened? Thirty lightning quick messages when I'm gone for a moment.. And already banned..

But yes, Plagueis is as canon as can be as the databank doesn't state him as myth but as a real sith and it says the following:

And to return to topic: I think it's highly likely that Sidious was relatively the best duelist due to his probable vast knowledge and an even better tutor than Yoda. Of course there are a lot of people to who Yoda is some kind of idol but it would still make sense because it isn't irregular for the main villain to also be the strongest in these kind of movies.
And Dooku completed training under Yoda but did undergo training again, this time under Sidious.

Of course nothing is official but it would make the most sense.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You mean a fully isolated empire full of Sith and not anything clsoe to ruling the entire galaxy? Not one other Sith ever took the Republic or wiped out the Jedi order

I wonder how big was the ancient Sith Empire in comparison to the Galactic Empire.

Like I'm sure that Palpatine's Empire was massive, but how much more massive was it in comparison with the Sith Empire because Korriban wasn't the only planet under Sith Imperialism.

The Sith Empire was tiny compared to the galaxy...Korriban was a burial world. The core world was Ziost.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Sith Empire was tiny compared to the galaxy...Korriban was a burial world. The core world was Ziost.

Tiny....

I don't know how small "tiny" is to you but I'd rather see the reign of territories merely to see for myself.

EDIT

In comparison to the rest of the galaxy? Pick up the Tales of the Jedi comics if you can find them. The Sith Empire was a cluster of worlds beyond the Rim, isolated and forgotten. Hell, the Hapes Cluster was over 60 worlds and considered a small part of the galaxy, nevermind Hutt Space...

Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good. - NG

Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced. - NG

Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style. - NG

It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him. - NG

Ah yes, hyperbole from the man who says he can pwn everyone in the series, including Ray Park.

I'm sure Nick Gillard is THE best source of all time for the fighting style of Sidious... Not the on-screen evidence at all. Jeez... sounds like NG should be left alone in his room with his Sidious action figure and a container of Vaseline.

Oh, and when Nick refers to himself in third person... priceless!

Oh, well, considering he only created Sidious's fighting style, along with Mace, Dooku, Anakin...

Considering the Count Of Monte Cristo choreographer would apply to the Count of Monte Cristo alone...

Gee, most people with brains would consider quotations from the man who created Sidious's fighting style to be some bit of evidence-which it is. And yes, Gillard both choreographed the fights and created the fighting styles for the movies

I can find that same info on Star Wars.com you know. TFN.net isn't official but it sure as hell gets a lot done with SW info. They've been the ones to leak a lot of info and have gotten numerous interviews.

A lot of officials tend to hang out on those forums, too

No matter what is official or not.. They apperantly used NG' idea's in the movies.

It is sane logic though that Sidious must have known more than one fighting style if he were to teach Maul in Juyo and himself clearly not using that. I believe it when the choreographer says that Sidious mastered all fighting styles.
Even the full fledged dueling master Dooku went under his training and it not unusual for the main villain to be overpowered like crazy.

Some jedi he fought were just lucky and some apperantly not..

If you have a point, make it

I did. It's obvious you can't understand your own logical failings. It's just a pity that you actually have some avid supporters here.

What is your point here exactly? Me actually citing official sources is a bad thing?

What's next, JRR Tolkien being wrong about LOTR?

Uh, if JRR Tolkien says that Legolas can pwn Gimli in combat, he would know.

If some fan site has a supposed quote from a choreographer from the movie(without a direct source or origin) who says that Legolas is godly and can pwn all and moves mountains with his fake hair and YOU insist we listen to him because it is "official", I would be disinclined to believe in your foolishness.

Supposed quote? I already had another source and that little detail comes from SW.com with Lucas quotes and others. Now, is Nick Gillard official or is he not?

And if they posted up false quotes-they need permission- they'd get sued by Nick'n Lucasfilm instantly

I love how you dance circles around the real points here....

You are using a source from a battle choreographer to say that Sidious is godly at combat. This is a flimsy source, since it uses BIAS, HYPERBOLE, and overall you are APPEALING TO AUTHORITY.

Now, when you're done skimming my posts and acting like a complete ignoramus, maybe you can show me some EVIDENCE from the movies and/or books that says that Sidious is a sabergod. If you can't, zip it. You are making the assertion that Sidious is the fek all in saber combat and is the uber badass that makes you mess your Star Wars sheets at night. If you refuse to back it up with anything more substantial than a quote from a battle choreographer (Despite the fact that the ROTS script has Sidious getting tooled by Yoda, so apparently Yoda is MORE uber than that. He must be able to kill ANYONE with any weapon at any time, while cooking pasta in an easy bake oven) go away and take your Sidious fanclub with you.

What exactly is the problem? NG made up the style of Sidious and the database doesn't contradict him, nor does anything I see in the movies lead me to think otherwise.
It's all very logical actually and safe to assume.

So please, if there are any arguments to why Sidious would not know what NG claims, then please say it so it can be discussed.

*Yawn* Where is Sidious ever 'tooled' by Yoda? If he was, we wouldn't have an OT. Who's acting like Sidious is the be all end all? Why would such a reputed site use false information when everything else there was proven true and they have direct correlation with Lucasfilm and Nick himself?

Geez, the end all arguments of the beaten...

Yeah, it seems as though people were a little bit too impressed by Yoda's impractical summersaults. Fact is though that Ataru has a lot of flaws if the fight goes on long enough.

*Yawn*

Oh, dramatics. Roleplaying for us? How cute.

Where is Sidious ever 'tooled' by Yoda?

Yoda DISARMED him according to the OFFICIAL script. Go find it. Or don't you know anything about Star Wars?

See? I can act like you too!


If he was, we wouldn't have an OT.

No shit, Sherlock.


Who's acting like Sidious is the be all end all? Why would such a reputed site use false information when everything else there was proven true and they have direct correlation with Lucasfilm and Nick himself?

Obviously you and logic don't both exist in the same realm.

The problem with your argument is that you are stating that NG's comments are undeniable facts, when in reality they are logically fallacious and unproven in the source material. NG's credibility as both a biased person and a mere battle choreographer both come into play. NG also said that Anakin Skywalker is a Level 9 along with Mace Windu, Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, etc. His evidence? None. Now if GL comes out of his proverbial closet and says "Sidious is the best Sith of all time, including EU and the movies, etc. etc." I would take it seriously.

Now, do you have any evidence?

There is no evidence for him being the best (evidence is such a big word) but let's focus on the other duelists in that case, shall we?

Never shown in the movie. No more canon there than some other details. IE: Shaak Ti being killed by Grievous. And in the 'official script', Luke is 18 and Leia 16 at the time of ANH

Nick's evidence? Well, he only has Anakin destroy Dooku...and he only created their fighting styles...and he's the only official source on the matter....hey, why don't I say George is a CGI whore and won't admit that suited Vader was made in a time there wasn't abundant CGI. He's certainly a biased sort when it comes to Vader's weaknesses

Oh, yes. A Master =/= the best

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Never shown in the movie. No more canon there than some other details. IE: Shaak Ti being killed by Grievous. And in the 'official script', Luke is 18 and Leia 16 at the time of ANH

Nick's evidence? Well, he only has Anakin destroy Dooku...and he only created their fighting styles...and he's the only official source on the matter....hey, why don't I say George is a CGI whore and won't admit that suited Vader was made in a time there wasn't abundant CGI. He's certainly a biased sort when it comes to Vader's weaknesses

Obviously you are a complete moron. Your own vaunted Leland Chee says this about canon...

As of 2000, Lucas Licensing has appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the "Holocron". As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years.

The Holocron is divided into 4 levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies, the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, and the radio plays. G-canon always overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe; SW books, comics, and games. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay are N-canon. Though even certain things from stats and gameplay have made their way over to C-canon occasionally.
S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is "non-canon". What-if stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm


Oh, and about Nick...

http://www.starwars.com/bio/nickgillard.html


Do you have anything else to add, or will you be crying in a corner somewhere with your Sidious pillow?

Alright, so he was disarmed, big deal. I admit I was wrong there.

And thanks for proving my Nick Gillard point

Where in that article did it say Nick was anything more than a stunt coordinator?

To do this, Gillard had to create a fictional martial art that has an authentic, time-honored feel. Rather than assembling a pastiche of various martial arts, Gillard worked to create a distinctive technique that is based on the fact that the Jedi have specifically "chosen the sword as their weapon."

I'd say this lends credence on an official source for any type of discussion on lightsaber combat.

And below that is says for TPM.

Nowhere does it proclaim Nick Gillard as the master know it all of a fictional character's abilities.

He's a stunt coordinator, period.

Except the idea that he created the styles. And that biography was written years ago. Why do you ignore the quotes on the other page that do say Gillard put Sidious's style together?

Why do you ignore the fact that regardless of his involvement in making fighting scenes and stunts for the movies, Nick Gillard is no more a reliable source for Sidious' ability than the gaffer or the guy who peels oranges for GL.

George Lucas has the final say, and if it's not coming out of his mouth, or shown in his scripts or the movies, it's hogwash. NG does not make the final rules, period. He is a stunt coordinator.

anything contradicting him yet? No? Than he's the only source we have on this? Ok. Did he make Sidious's style? Yes? Does that give him authroity to talk about it as noone else has contradicted Gillard on it.

If the guy who peels Lucas's oranges says Lucas prefers clementines...I'd be inclined to believe him

anything contradicting him yet? No? Than he's the only source we have on this? Ok.

Yoda is a manifestation of the Force.

Anything contradicting me yet? No? Am I the only source you have on this claim? Ok.

Do you see the fault yet? Or do we go into extra innings?


Did he make Sidious's style? Yes? Does that give him authroity to talk about it as noone else has contradicted Gillard on it.

Wow.

Paul Weston is the stunt coordinator for The Count of Monte Cristo. He created ALL of the fight scenes in the entire production. If he makes the assertion that Edmon Dantes is ambidextrous, can use all styles and weapons, and can pwn anyone, and no one else has contradicted him yet, is he in a position to make this claim?

No!

Yoda can't be because the Chosen One had to be born from the Force. See?

Is Count of Monte Cristo an original movie or is it a heavily altered version where the original creator is dead and buried as opposed to SW where the creator is working right alongside Nick?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda can't be because the Chosen One had to be born from the Force. See?

Is Count of Monte Cristo an original movie or is it a heavily altered version where the original creator is dead and buried as opposed to SW where the creator is working right alongside Nick?

I never said I was talking about the Chosen One, but thanks for assuming. The point is, someone doesn't have to contradict a claim for it to be false or unreliable.

And the movie I'm refering to is the 2002 production, which stands in its own realm, so to speak, since it is not in a continuity with Dumas' original work. The point was that both movies have fighting scenes and styles totally dictated by one man. Difference is that NG has made claims that are unsubstantiated, while Weston has not. NG has no real authority, just imagined authority.

And for the last damn time, stop APPEALING TO AUTHORITY.

This is comical to me. His proof is 3 sentences from a comic. Great proof there man. I'd have to say you win hands down against logic and whole books of proof. Good job Lightsnake, for finding three sentences.

List this so called other proof and logic. Go on, dare ya.

Disprove him, then, and stop insulting him. Faunus is the only one who's offered proof.

1. George Lucas hasn't said that Marka Ragnos is the strongest Sith Lord of all time, nor did he say that Kreia's quote is the honest-to-God truth. I guess that means the theory of "Ancient Sith pwn all PT Sith" bites the big one.

2. Nick Gillard invented lightsaber dueling. He invented the forms, styles, and all others, on Lucas's directive. Thus, he is a reliable source for information regarding who is skilled in what, in regards to weapons. Lucas has not contradicted this in any way. I suppose then that if Lucas doesn't say "okay" to every single word Gillard says, it must be false?

3. Now, I was skeptical when I looked at this. But Lightsnake is the only one here who's offered proof. The rest of you like to insult him. Doesn't matter, because until you all give your rebuttles and counter his information, he's right. So, get crackin'. It's your job to produce some information against his statements.

Good Lord, Blind Guardian, how can you be so damn obtuse? This kind of adolescent arguing might swing in the vs. area but I am damned if I am going to see it gain credibility in here.

All this talk you babble about 'appeals to authority' and so forth actually has a name itself- sophistry.

Despite your attempts to reduce him to a mere functionary, Nick Gillard had hige creative control over his fights, and I am afraid only an idiot would dismiss him as an authoritative source on the subject. Is he absolutely inapable of error? No- but he IS a good source, and furthermore he is the only decent source we have. Trying to compare yourself making a comment about Yoda is a total non sequitur- by any measure of common sense, Nick Gillard has far more right to make an official proncouncement on the area than you.

Let's get this down to cases. If the facta remain at this- that GL says that Sidious is the most powerful, coupled with the creator of all these EU characters saying that they are less powerful than Sidious...

... then the debate is over, regardless of any debating tactics being employed. If these specific areas are not properly addressed, then that's the end of the game, and I'll close if necessary.