KotOR 2 Debate

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Darth Hawkeye
Now I think that KotOR 2 only had one problem and others belive it was the story itself i think it was the length cause KotOR I was much better ir was longer and unique.

Now I wanna know what is wrong with KotOR 2's story im tired of peeps saying obsidian did such a bad job

Darth Traya
Kotor II was a broken game, but not because of Obsidian. Basically, Obsidian had five more months to go, and then BOOM! Lucasarts suddenly gives them month to finish it, for a Christmas release. So they had to cut about a third out the game, some of which included vital plot stories.

So, not really Obsidian's fault. And to be fair, the TSL was a good game, even then!

Darth Hawkeye
Thats what I'm sayin Traya me and you both liked the game but I wanna see why these basterds who put the game down cause there being picky abotu a storyline when it wasnt all that bad

Darth Traya
True.

braz
u can create ur own sith in this one cant u..? and if so, in the first one can u create a jedi?

exanda kane
Yes Braz you can, aswell as certain members of your recruited party.

I've searched around a bit and have come across a mod that iss trying to reinstall these missing areas of KOTOR 2 and complete the game. It was a while ago so i can't get you a link, but there are people out there capable of completeing KOTOR 2. Apparently alot of the missing content exists with the game, yet it was not put into the story etc.

braz
saweet! im gettin this game now, too bad it doesnt come out on PS2 though, just Xbox

exanda kane
And PC dont forget. However if you have not played the first i suggest you do that.

Darth Traya
www.team-gizka.org

braz
Originally posted by exanda kane
And PC dont forget. However if you have not played the first i suggest you do that.

y? i dont want to the sith's are way cooler lol

exanda kane
You can be both a jedi or a sith (well, dark jedi) in both games and the stroy and overall feel of the first game is superior to its sequel.

KOTOR 2: Sith Lords is a good game but it is lacking, so its best to enjoy the first one before hand.

Ushgarak
I have never been convinced that KOTOR II would have been that much better with more development time. I trhink what flaws it had were engrained deep. Ok, so the end was a mess due to time constraints, but all the IMPORTANT bits they wanted went in- and didn't work that great.

But lets have some perspective here- KOTOR II is FAR from a lousy game; you will have played far worse in your life. It certainly wasn't a waste of my money either. There are just issues.

Darth Traya
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I have never been convinced that KOTOR II would have been that much better with more development time. I trhink what flaws it had were engrained deep. Ok, so the end was a mess due to time constraints, but all the IMPORTANT bits they wanted went in- and didn't work that great.

But lets have some perspective here- KOTOR II is FAR from a lousy game; you will have played far worse in your life. It certainly wasn't a waste of my money either. There are just issues.

No, Ushgarak, most of the important bits were out.

Further romance options, More dialogue regarding Revan, Canderous dialogue, the endgame.

Genoharadan et cetera. A fair portion of the game was cut, Ush.

Ushgarak
Sidelines only. They would not have solved the core issues, not one tiny bit.

People give the missing material far too much credence- the fact is the game had design flaws. 100% complete, ti would still have had them.

Darth Traya
What so these were not central to the plot?:

M4-78, an entire planet was cut!

Master Lonna Vash and her Padawan. They provided information on your force bond and possibly why you don't die when you kill Kreia on Malachor V.

Further exploration of the Sion-Nihilus relationship. It also displays Nihilus' power.

The Droid factory, which not only provided an extra three hours of gameplay but explained many things. Like the presence of the HK-51 in the mining base. It also provided some extra information on Revan too, and his motives.

The Malachor betrayals. It shows how Malachor V can corrupt people so quickly. Not only that, it adds further to the romance options, like Atton dying or whether or not you love Visas or the Handmaiden.

Atris as Darth Traya. It explained a lot about katarr, with Atris possibly having betrayed the Jedi at Katarr. Also, it showed that Kreia was not beyond redemption.

Extra lines for the Jedi Masters before Kreia kills them. Kreia tells them all about their respective failings.

The Genoharadan on Nar Shaddaa. You had to destroy them.

Extra lines for Canderous.

Extra lines for all of the party members.

Possible Handmaiden - Kreia relationship.

More ways to sacrafice Visas.

Lots more stuff for the endgame. More cutscenes and deliberating on wha the exile does after traya's defeat.

More inclusion of the locked navicomputer scene.

-

That's only the tip of the iceberg anyway. Lots more things that were central to the plot were discarded.

exanda kane
I see what Ush is saying, but it was the extras, the sideline quests, like Traya said, what made KOTOR so damn good.

It would add small pieces of the jigsaw that, in turn created such a deep gaming experience that you half expected yourself to wake up repeating ancient japanese philosophies to yourself.

Yes the game does have flaws ingrained into it, some which were evident in the first game, yet with the inclusion of a great, seemless story you only noticed on close inspection. On the second game, because there was a lack of cohesion in the story, you saw these flaws.

Ushgarak
Err... sorry, but everything Traya posted is just fluff. It still wouldn't have solved core problems KOTOR II had- unbalanced combat, repetitious plot, poor backgrounds, uninspired locations etc.

I don't think any amount of more stuff like that would have obscured these issues. KOTOR II was a poor advance from the original.

Compare the triumphant advance from BG to BGII- and this was at a fundamental level.

exanda kane
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err... sorry, but everything Traya posted is just fluff. It still wouldn't have solved core problems KOTOR II had- unbalanced combat, repetitious plot, poor backgrounds, uninspired locations etc.

I don't think any amount of more stuff like that would have obscured these issues. KOTOR II was a poor advance from the original.

Compare the triumphant advance from BG to BGII- and this was at a fundamental level.

But the overall picture of KOTOR made these flaws less of a hindrance.

The flaws that KOTOR 2 gained from its predecessor would probably have not allowed the game to gain the improvement that BG 2 recieved had it been given the full developement plan, but it would have still been improved.

The locations in KOTOR 2 were certainly uninspiring as you say, Nar Shaada with a population of 6 peopple anyone? An almost exact replica of Dantooine? This represents probably the main fallability of KOTOR 2 excluding the missing content. Obsidian's mistake I feel was using merely an improved engine of the first game.

Another flaw of the KOTOR franchise I feel is that each location has its main priorities in creating a unique location, different from anything else in the SW Universe. This may seem like a great idea, but it also takes emphasis away from the reality and detail a place would need...e.g. Telos. A flashy piece of girder work, but the inside was just plain and dull.

If the franchise needs to continue then KOTOR 3 needs to be something special and different, breaking the mold or either going back to it's roots and creating a smooth and involving experience.

Lord Melkor
Ush, how were KOTOR`s 2 locations and plot that inferior to KOTOR 1?

Darth Hawkeye
Seriously I felt nothing wrong with game besides for me not a long enough until i started reading what people said about it I tought it to be the best game ever and was pissed when they didnt win the Game of The Year

ubermench
i thought the game was pretty cool. I mean the combat was a lot better than the first one. More options more feats and stuff, better ai with more items and add ons. It was pretty cool over all. i just dont get the whole "repttitive plots" sentence though. i didnt see anythigng repetittive about it.

Sir Degrader
No, repetitive plots meant that its non canon. GL said so, the games aren't canon, only the movies are.

Darth Hawkeye
Same here If you could just point out what was so Repetitive thats its obvious enough to mess up the game. Like i said and I'll say again only thing wrong was it wasn't long enough

Sir Degrader
Yeah I know, when I was in Peragus it was like "wtf, this is it!?"

Darth Hawkeye
I wouldn't want another taris or Paragus I want one in between cause KotOR I took too long and TSL didnt take long enough. I have a record time of beating it in 12 minutes'

Sir Degrader
Telos or Peragus? Either way, that's amazing, even the cyber athletes couldn't do that.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Hawkeye
I wouldn't want another taris or Paragus I want one in between cause KotOR I took too long and TSL didnt take long enough. I have a record time of beating it in 12 minutes'

Which place is TSL?

If you think that's impressive, I beat all of KOTOR in 9 hours with all sidequest. Seriously, just force run everywhere.

Sir Degrader
No you didn't. I demand proof.

Darth_Glentract
I bet you do.

Darth Hawkeye
LOL I never had thought of that and TSL is The Sith Lords for KotOR 2 took me a whilem to figure it out too. But KotOR was a fun one to beat I took my time cause when it ended I was bummed so I consulted Google for whne they'd make a new one and saw a VIDEO and I cried in excitement and know It happens again with KotOR 3 except no video THE BASTARDS

Sir Degrader
Yeah I know, those ****ers, not making a ****ing game in a short time. It's jakckasses like you that broke the interenet.

Darth Hawkeye
Wait a sec I have come to belive PROOF is an evil word used to make us spend hours to keep people happy so I only do it if its completely plausibel and not a boring topic.

Sir Degrader
OMFG speak english!

Darth Hawkeye
Its english for someone who isnt slow as you for one all you have to do is LEARN smart one use the FORCE

Sir Degrader
Use the force? LOL, the force isn't real you idiot.

Darth Hawkeye
I was typically being a SMARTASS do you know what that is either

Sir Degrader
Dude, STFU, ur a loser.

Darth Hawkeye
How about i get back on topic KotOR Debate anyone

Sir Degrader
Ok, KOTOR 1 sucks, KOTOR 2 was alright.

Darth Hawkeye
Now not form me but thers porbaly gonna be way too much feedback on that I'd change my mind

exanda kane
Wow. I go away for one hour and you have blatantly degenerated this thread.

How can you not see everything that was wrong with KOTOR 2? It wasnt long enough because LucasArts pushed the developers on their developing time, so a whole lotta content was missed out. This is basically the reason for the jumpy story and pace, undeveloped characters, hundreds of bugs, missing cutscenes etc. etc. etc.

There is a lot wrong with KOTOR 2. That is not to say its not a great game, it just lacks a lot which the original has. Of course there are certain improvements such as lightsaber styles and more feats/force powers but thats is only one side of the spectrum.

Darth Hawkeye
Now see I know whats wrong with the game but I try not to see it cause chances of me gettign it on an 800mhz pc on a game that requires 1ghz and a good video card are slim so I try not to see it cause what I see that I like I want.

Sir Degrader
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I have never been convinced that KOTOR II would have been that much better with more development time. I trhink what flaws it had were engrained deep. Ok, so the end was a mess due to time constraints, but all the IMPORTANT bits they wanted went in- and didn't work that great.

But lets have some perspective here- KOTOR II is FAR from a lousy game; you will have played far worse in your life. It certainly wasn't a waste of my money either. There are just issues.

OMFG this is Ush? Your harder then a catholic priest in a playground, and I bet you kow abot tha tlol.

ubermench
lol that was a good one

exanda kane
I can't wait to see the consequences of that remark in the morning big grin

Darth Hawkeye
It has to be someone in need of BOOTING he has to have pissed off more people then me someone say yes I wouldnt think morons stand untreated

exanda kane
Originally posted by Darth Hawkeye
It has to be someone in need of BOOTING he has to have pissed off more people then me someone say yes I wouldnt think morons stand untreated

Please use standard grammar when using these forums. Thankyou.

Darth Hawkeye
Sorry.... Just a little ticked

exanda kane
Any reason?

Darth Hawkeye
This Sir guy is insluting everyone and ruining topics all together

exanda kane
Meh... he's American. The jokes on him.

Darth Hawkeye
HAHA good one exanda

Sir Degrader
Originally posted by exanda kane
Meh... he's American. The jokes on him.
Exanda, where are you from?

žnoopbert
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err... sorry, but everything Traya posted is just fluff. It still wouldn't have solved core problems KOTOR II had- unbalanced combat, repetitious plot, poor backgrounds, uninspired locations etc.

I don't think any amount of more stuff like that would have obscured these issues. KOTOR II was a poor advance from the original.

Compare the triumphant advance from BG to BGII- and this was at a fundamental level. Most of the endgame was cut, which would've removed a significant amount of plotholes. Which are an important part of "core issues".

Darth Hawkeye
I seriously still without thinking about it.......Well if you didnt know they were rushed and parts were missing would you of said it was a bad game

Darth Hawkeye
Well come on admit it you wouldnt have anythign wrong to say about the game

braz
does KOTOR and KOTOR II the sith lords both focus more detailed into lightsaber combat like with all the styles rather than just like battlefront where u have one button for attacking with the saber only one way?

exanda kane
When playing the game for the first time i completed without exploring half of the main plot, it felt empty and dull.

truejedi
Originally posted by Darth Traya
What so these were not central to the plot?:

M4-78, an entire planet was cut!

Master Lonna Vash and her Padawan. They provided information on your force bond and possibly why you don't die when you kill Kreia on Malachor V.

Further exploration of the Sion-Nihilus relationship. It also displays Nihilus' power.

The Droid factory, which not only provided an extra three hours of gameplay but explained many things. Like the presence of the HK-51 in the mining base. It also provided some extra information on Revan too, and his motives.

The Malachor betrayals. It shows how Malachor V can corrupt people so quickly. Not only that, it adds further to the romance options, like Atton dying or whether or not you love Visas or the Handmaiden.

Atris as Darth Traya. It explained a lot about katarr, with Atris possibly having betrayed the Jedi at Katarr. Also, it showed that Kreia was not beyond redemption.

Extra lines for the Jedi Masters before Kreia kills them. Kreia tells them all about their respective failings.

The Genoharadan on Nar Shaddaa. You had to destroy them.

Extra lines for Canderous.

Extra lines for all of the party members.

Possible Handmaiden - Kreia relationship.

More ways to sacrafice Visas.

Lots more stuff for the endgame. More cutscenes and deliberating on wha the exile does after traya's defeat.

More inclusion of the locked navicomputer scene.

-

That's only the tip of the iceberg anyway. Lots more things that were central to the plot were discarded.


I just finished KOTOR 2 for the first time, and yeah, i was really disappointed when it didn't all fit together like the first one did, I looked for hours for the owner of that stupid droid (i thought it was on Nar Shadaa though) I talked to HK47 and to M3 for a long time trying to solve the navicomputer thing,
The ending absolutely sucked, it looked like your entire party died, and then there is the ebon hawk picking you up. (what happened to the remote? it evidently was able to blow the planet up or something)

I never even saw canderous. where was he?
One thing that really made me mad is i looked forever for those stupid jedi masters, and then ten seconds after i go see them, they all die, that made me angry. more stuff too, but overall, it ended too quickly, it was too much like the first one, and for the most part, it was way too easy.
thoughts anyone?
one last thing, what happens if you kill the wookie with the girl on malachar 5? i lost the first time, and accidently saved instead of loading.

zephiel7
I think KOTOR 2 was a great game, but it has its several share of problems

One problem were the plot holes. I mean at one point in Peragus when your escaping, Kreia all of a sudden shows up on the ship, with no explanation on how she got there.

Also Bao Dur (a really cool character) and Mandalore (badass) don't say enough.

Malachore 5 was ANTI CLIMATIC. I mean what happened to my party? The relationship with handmaiden was poorly done. I liked how in KOTOR you could every so often talk to Bastila and as time passes she would have new things to say. With KOTOR 2 that has just completely dissapeared.

truejedi
Originally posted by zephiel7
I think KOTOR 2 was a great game, but it has its several share of problems

One problem were the plot holes. I mean at one point in Peragus when your escaping, Kreia all of a sudden shows up on the ship, with no explanation on how she got there.

Also Bao Dur (a really cool character) and Mandalore (badass) don't say enough.

Malachore 5 was ANTI CLIMATIC. I mean what happened to my party? The relationship with handmaiden was poorly done. I liked how in KOTOR you could every so often talk to Bastila and as time passes she would have new things to say. With KOTOR 2 that has just completely dissapeared.

true, and i had several people mention canderous. I never saw him in KOTOR 2, where do you find him? The game was if anything, too easy, i beat both nihilihus(not that the game even explained who he was) sion, and traya on the first try, the only trouble i had was when my party had to do the fighting.

Fishy
Originally posted by truejedi
true, and i had several people mention canderous. I never saw him in KOTOR 2, where do you find him? The game was if anything, too easy, i beat both nihilihus(not that the game even explained who he was) sion, and traya on the first try, the only trouble i had was when my party had to do the fighting.

You didn't recognize the voice?

Canderous is Mandalore... He even talks about restoring Clan Ordo and Kreia says he travelled with Revan... Did you just miss all that stuff?

truejedi
Originally posted by Fishy
You didn't recognize the voice?

Canderous is Mandalore... He even talks about restoring Clan Ordo and Kreia says he travelled with Revan... Did you just miss all that stuff?

I guess i did, i didn't realize mandalore was canderous, well, that's pretty cool then! learn something new everyday

zephiel7
Yea, in case you missed it, the character you play in KOTOR is actually Revan!

OMGWTF rolling on floor laughing

truejedi
Originally posted by zephiel7
Yea, in case you missed it, the character you play in KOTOR is actually Revan!

OMGWTF rolling on floor laughing thanks for the insight...

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