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So, OT Sidious versus Darth Malak, takes place on the Death Star.

Sidious is death, he doesn't have the force power or the lightsaber ability's to take Malak.

He pretty much gets stomped.

I can't believe I get accused of fanboyism to Sidious when there is clearly such biased against him....
Sidious easily. Malak is far too much an idiot to stand against him

Malak easily. Sidious is far too much of an idiot to stand against him.

There's a difference between debating and trolling.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's a difference between debating and trolling.

No, I was merely reiterating my views, which happened to be the opposite of yours.

No, you were trolling. Before everyone begins pointing and screaming 'fanboy'
OT Sidious....by some logic, must be much stronger than ROTS Sidious. This means he'd be capable of....battle meditation, clouding the minds of his opponent, the force lightning he employed on Mace and saber skills up there with Yoda.

Face it, Malak'll get curbstomped. In a fair fight against an above average opponent, he's nothing special and according to KOTOR 2 he was nothing but a stupid, tactless brute.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, you were trolling. Before everyone begins pointing and screaming 'fanboy'
OT Sidious....by some logic, must be much stronger than ROTS Sidious. This means he'd be capable of....battle meditation, clouding the minds of his opponent, the force lightning he employed on Mace and saber skills up there with Yoda.

Face it, Malak'll get curbstomped. In a fair fight against an above average opponent, he's nothing special and according to KOTOR 2 he was nothing but a stupid, tactless brute.

Even a tactless brute can be a great fighter and Kotor II talks about his military skills never about his fighting skills, at least not in a bad way. He is a great fighter you know.

Sidious on the other hand lost from Mace and could not beat Yoda, he didn't have any lightsaber training in 20 years and did almost nothing more then sitting around. With Anakin as his loyal pet and the Jedi extinct he had no reason to keep on training. Hell look at Vader his lightsaber skills got weaker and his force skills didn't really become more powerful. In 20 years they made almost no progress because they didn't need to do so.

Malak on the other hand was second in the galaxy only to Revan, never lost a fight except against Revan. Ruled over ex Jedi High Council members even though he was much younger then them, ruled over thousands of other sith. Fought in two wars at the front line, unlike Sidious who sat behind doing well no fighting at all. What reason would Sidious have to be more powerful? He wasn't the fighter Malak was and his force powers aren't that great yet either.

Point being? 'Tactless brute' would be a general description. Malak was crass and lacked any sort of subtlety.

And gee, Sidious only lost against the best duelist in thousands of years and stalemated one of, if not the strongest Jedi master ever...wow, those are such crippling limitations! And /I/ get called a fanboy....proof he didn't practice and spent twenty years sitting around? If learning the secrets of the ancient Sith from Plageuis and manipulating everything precisely where he wanted it counts...and look, at the end of those twenty years, the Jedi Order AND the Republic were gone. Palpatine achieved more than Malak and revan ever could. Were Revan and MAlak invited to sit at Korriban personally by Ragnos, I think not.

Proof Malak never lost a fight? Oh, right, there is none...he didn't 'rule' over high council members, he simply ran away from them to fight a war. And if 'doing nothing at all' means 'Plotting to take over the Republic and wipe out the Jedi'...

Force powers aren't that great? You are aware he wiped out a fleet with the force alone and to show Vader what the Ship could do, mentally broke down an entire cruiser, wiped out a small army of rebel stormies with force lightning...the reason he gave for not doing it earlier was that he wanted them to WANT him in power. Any fool could take over the galaxy by force, but Palpatine made it into an art form.
He clouded the minds of an entire Order for decades and was able to sense Vader in danger halfway across the galaxy. malak displays....what, two force powers? And Palpatine's done both of them on a far greater scale.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Point being? 'Tactless brute' would be a general description. Malak was crass and lacked any sort of subtlety.

And gee, Sidious only lost against the best duelist in thousands of years and stalemated one of, if not the strongest Jedi master ever...wow, those are such crippling limitations! And /I/ get called a fanboy....proof he didn't practice and spent twenty years sitting around? If learning the secrets of the ancient Sith from Plageuis and manipulating everything precisely where he wanted it counts...and look, at the end of those twenty years, the Jedi Order AND the Republic were gone. Palpatine achieved more than Malak and revan ever could. Were Revan and MAlak invited to sit at Korriban personally by Ragnos, I think not.

Proof Malak never lost a fight? Oh, right, there is none...he didn't 'rule' over high council members, he simply ran away from them to fight a war. And if 'doing nothing at all' means 'Plotting to take over the Republic and wipe out the Jedi'...

Force powers aren't that great? You are aware he wiped out a fleet with the force alone and to show Vader what the Ship could do, mentally broke down an entire cruiser, wiped out a small army of rebel stormies with force lightning...the reason he gave for not doing it earlier was that he wanted them to WANT him in power. Any fool could take over the galaxy by force, but Palpatine made it into an art form.
He clouded the minds of an entire Order for decades and was able to sense Vader in danger halfway across the galaxy. malak displays....what, two force powers? And Palpatine's done both of them on a far greater scale.

Unfortunately, this is the OT Sidious. Not DE Sidious.

So your arguments are basically moot.

Actually, no, the feats I described minus the fleet bit are from just post ROTS

The hiding from the Jedi was not down to inherent ability, it was down to the force unbalacing and swinging more to the darkside, I told you in another thread and you pretty much ignored me.

According to the novelization, that was Palpatine's doing entirely. The Force doesn't randomly unbalance, it needs a catalyst. Palpatine was that, same as how the Skywalker twins were the catalyst for the light

The novelization also has Obi-Wan dodging thousands of laser shots. Is it really a valid source?

AOTC novelization.

And? That doesn't imply power is needed, hell if Luke and Leia could do it, then Malak certainly could.

Luke and Leia were only prophesized children and the grandchildren of the Force. Malak was....just another Sith. At best

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke and Leia were only prophesized children and the grandchildren of the Force. Malak was....just another Sith. At best

So you're comparing a retarded farmboy and a snooty princess to a Sith Lord who could control and harness the power of a star, just by using the Darkside?

Using the phrase 'retarded farmboy' invalidates anything you may have to say. Like I said, in Truce at Bakura, Luke starts displaying quite the feats of power. He pulls spirits from the Ssi-Ruuvi tech, destroys a horde of Ssi-Ruuk, uses the force to physically 'die' and destroy a contamination within him...
You mean I'm comparing them to a stupid brute who capitalized on someone else's hard work? You mean the grandchildren of the Force who had prophecy backing them to a random idiot of a Sith?

Yep

Capitalised on someone's hard work? Well usually if you inherit an Empire, that's what you do

And has no impact on Malak's power at all.

Well if I was to inherit the British Empire in 1896 and then build it up, I would be technically "capitalising" on somone elses work, something which you seem to be implying is like plaguirism.

Yeah, great ingenuity on Malak's part. Course....nothing really about power there, considering he ruined what Revan was trying to do

True, Revan's work was ****ed up by Malak. But what does that have to do with fighting!?

What does inheriting an empire have to do with it? all he did was pick up Revan's hard work. Doesn't say much for Malak

Stop arguing "feat wars".

Then give me actual things to go on. 'Harnessed the power of a star.' Rubbish, all he did was grab Revan's work

What so the Star Forge was created by Revan?

He certainly began activating it

Well, the ancient sith has knowledge of it, too.

point being?

I really do not see what Revan has to do with this fight or the conquering of the galaxy for that matter...

But just to adress a few points here.

Movie novelizations are not cannon, they contradict the movies and they are therefor wrong. The only one that could be considered cannon is the ANH novelization, but that was written by GL...

Malak did rule over high council members, the Disciple says so in Kotor II. When one of them after Malak his dead tried to control the Star Forge he was absorbed by it because he was to weak. Malak also took out Kavar in a fight most thought Kavar had died. Nobody else except for Revan had the power to challenge him.

Now really all you have done in tihs thread is going off topic and trying to continue you your Sidious and the Skywalkers rule crusade... Its getting old and boring to fight you over the same thing in every thread without getting anywhere with you. So either stay on topic and discuss this and not some bullshit on conquering the world or the skywalker children or leave the thread.

Movie novelizations are official. They were announced as official sources by Leland Chee and parts that do not contradict the movies can be used-as when Leland cited part of the AOTC novelization.

Considering the stupidity of the Jedi in that era, it's no wonder Kavar lost.

And why don't you take your own advice and stop your little 'Ancient Sith/Revan/Exar Kun are God' crusades?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Using the phrase 'retarded farmboy' invalidates anything you may have to say. Like I said, in Truce at Bakura, Luke starts displaying quite the feats of power. He pulls spirits from the Ssi-Ruuvi tech, destroys a horde of Ssi-Ruuk, uses the force to physically 'die' and destroy a contamination within him...
You mean I'm comparing them to a stupid brute who capitalized on someone else's hard work? You mean the grandchildren of the Force who had prophecy backing them to a random idiot of a Sith?

Yep If you're talking about NJO Luke, he is basically the Star Wars universe's Goku.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Movie novelizations are official. They were announced as official sources by Leland Chee and parts that do not contradict the movies can be used-as when Leland cited part of the AOTC novelization.

Considering the stupidity of the Jedi in that era, it's no wonder Kavar lost.

And why don't you take your own advice and stop your little 'Ancient Sith/Revan/Exar Kun are God' crusades?

What Crusade??

And stupidity of the Jedi in that era? You are right now just reaching the level of fanboy you know that right? With answers like that. Show us some reasons already, or just admit that Sidious would lose from Malak.

Gee, Sidious only....kills three very powerful Jedi in a matter of seconds, wipes out a small army with force lightning because one of them shot his drink, rips a ship apart with the force....Malak's....looked threatening and died?

And yeah, the Jedi of that era tend to be incurably stupid. See the Sith War, and Golden Age of the Sith...apparently helping dictators crush secessionists is what Jedi like to do, as well as ignoring grave threats and helping out people so evil they might as well break into demonic laughter at any second! Can't forget the moronic approval of Ulic Qel-droma's plan, and Master Arca deciding to turn his back on a massive army of Krath droids to lecture Ulic...shouldn't mention the Jedi Council in KOTOR either...

Sidious killed three Jedi masters in seconds... and lost to mace the other stuff is bullshit, Malak ruled over High Council Members defeated their most powerful in combat, killed god knows how many mandelorians and Jedi in two galaxy spanning wars both of which he fought on the front lines.

And wtf on that second paraghrap, the PT era Jedi were smart? Have you seen their attack on Geonosis it was nothing short of stupid, they just jumped in there to die. Not going after Dooku like they should. They through all of the PT failed to see Sidious his idea's even when they were next to him. They failed to act when they could have and later on they put all their hopes into a farm boy that should convince his father to destroy the Sith.

Yoda knew damn well that Luke would never win from Sidious, he wouldn't stand a chance yet still they let him go, everything they have done screams stupidity. And yeah actually you should mention the Kotor council, because well really they aren't that stupid if you ask me, I might disagree with them but stupid?

OH RIGHT....
I think sidious faked to get anakin over to the dark side....
Anything against this? i can explain....

Originally posted by Kaithen
OH RIGHT....
I think sidious faked to get anakin over to the dark side....
Anything against this? i can explain....

GL in the commentary of the ROTS DVD says that Mace overpowered Sidious, so he wasn't faking his lightsaber skills.

Well he said that about Anakin and Dooku too, though we can be pretty sure Dooku wasent aiming to kill Anakin, could be the case here too. (Not saying it is).

Thanks Kamikz

For what???

I dont know

Malak bested Kavar....that's really it. Oh, by the way, PHYSICALLY being overpowered isn't really a demerit. Especially as Malak probably couldn't hold a candle to Mace as a duelist. Vaapad tends to count for a bit. And when you consider their fight never ended...unless you'd like to argue Darth Maul beat Obi-wan Kenobi?


And Geonosis....well, considering they A. won, B. lost all of the worthless form IV users, it worked out really well. not going after Dooku like they should? I think I saw Coleman Trebor try, Yoda, Anakin and Obi-wan do the same thing...the other Jedi had to deal with things like winning the actual battle. in the AOTC novelization, Yoda directed them to continue the ground duel.

And last I recall, Sidious was vaporized in a reactor core by Anakin and Luke was alive....I'd say Yoda did a pretty damn good job in his estimations. Luke was fighting with the Force itself behind him and he sure as hell beat Sidious in more ways than actual combat.

The KOTOR council deciding to strip the Exile of his power? Exiling such a potential lethal threat? The whole Revan fiasco? At the least the PT era Jedi didn't ignore their responsibilities to the people they'd vowed to protect in the Clone Wars

This is uninformed at best Lightsnake, you have shown bias to the movie characters a lot but I at least figured you would be informed about the older stuff.

Malak could very likely defeat Mace, he's a lightsaber prodigy just like Mace, but unlike Mace he has learned from the Dark Side and has fought many Jedi. Kavar is hardly the only Jedi he beat, you don't become a legendary lightsaber duellist when all you fight is Kavar, and even so Kavar is seen as the greatest fighter of the order.

And all that stuff on Geonosis was a misserable failure, before the droids showed up they could have taken Dooku out, and Trebor did charge at Dooku but Mace jumped down, they jumped into the arena completely surrounded, and getting Jedi killed was never there idea, it was a foolish and tactless move to say the least, it was a huge mistake.

And Luke had luck, Yoda could not have known it would end like that, he relied on other forces to do the job for him, not on himself or on the skills of somebody. So many things could have gone wrong. It was luck working not Yoda his brilliant plan, because it wasn't brilliant. It may have been there last hope but it was a foolish hope.

The Kotor council also did not strip the Exile of his power, Malachor V did that for him. Listen to Kreia, Zez Kai and Kavar next time. What Revan fiasco? I fail to see the fiasco here? Him turning to the Dark Side and then proceeding to kill half the order, what did Anakin do again? Sending him out to kill Malak, well we don't know how that turned out so it means nothing, we do know that at worst he at least delayed the fall of the Republic, a good thing if you ask me.

And if you would have paid attention you would know that the Jedi Order of that time had a reason to not go to war. A threat hiding in the darkness, perhaps they were right with their decision, we will never know, but I could hardly call it foolish. We don't know how it will end up yet, so you can hardly judge their decisions. The one's that we can tell however at least bought the republic some time.

Vaapad only works against dark force users VERY well and MAlak'd never have seen it. Malak beat the best swordsman the Order'd ever known minus Yoda and Dooku? Laughable, learn about your older stuff yourself, nothing ever indicates that KOTOR's era is better than the PT's. KOTOR is a legendary retelling, THAT'S how they summed up a lot of the errors (Nar Shadaa, Korriban, etc.)


Yoda was still right. Period. BEFORE the Droids showed up? And yeah, they screwed up. They still loved Dooku, though and wanted to believe the best of him.

And they exiled the Exile, remember?

post more later, gotta run

Vaapad does not work better against the Dark Side, it borders on the edge of the Dark Side its not more powerful against the Dark Side, you probably got that from Wikipedia it was a big issue here some time ago, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest its true, I'm sure Faunus can tell you that.

Malak also was better then the best in the order, as he was described. Was Yoda in the order at that time? No, he wasn't think next time. Dooku can also be debated about.

Yoda was still right? What the hell kind of argument is that? He was right after he already made the mistake, telling them to continue the fight means nothing if they could have done everything they needed to do before the fight started.

So having faith in Dooku is not an incredibly stupid thing to do, for some reason but exiling the exile is?

And exiling him meant nothing, he already lost his force connection then he was already a nothing. They exiled him because he betrayed the order and went against them and then still said he did the right thing. The Exile himself admits to not knowing why he returned but joining the Jedi Order again was not the reason. Whatever his reason was nothing would have changed if the Jedi made a different decision, and if you would have paid attention you would have realised that keeping the Exile around was too dangerous as they could have been fighting a war on two fronts if he would have stayed.

Vaapad only works against dark force users VERY well and MAlak'd never have seen it. Malak beat the best swordsman the Order'd ever known minus Yoda and Dooku? Laughable, learn about your older stuff yourself, nothing ever indicates that KOTOR's era is better than the PT's. KOTOR is a legendary retelling, THAT'S how they summed up a lot of the errors (Nar Shadaa, Korriban, etc.)


Yoda was still right. Period. BEFORE the Droids showed up? And yeah, they screwed up, I'll admit that. They still loved Dooku, though and wanted to believe the best of him.

And they exiled the Exile, remember? And the Revan fiasco: The entire way they handled the Mandalorian Wars was horrible. Perhaps EXPLAINING this stuff to Revan would have worked out a lot better than hiding it....and don't get me started with Revan's 'conquer the Galaxy to save it' thing

Ignore above post

If anybody wants to read the reply to the rest of his post read my previous pots Anyways

"And the Revan fiasco: The entire way they handled the Mandalorian Wars was horrible. Perhaps EXPLAINING this stuff to Revan would have worked out a lot better than hiding it....and don't get me started with Revan's 'conquer the Galaxy to save it' thing"

The way they handled the Mandelorian wars was by telling the Jedi that they had a reason to stop, they didn't know what yet but they had to wait and see. Revan didn't want to wait and see he didn't want to wait and see what the council might find out, many lives were lost and it took him to long. The outer rim was being destroyed and the Jedi were preaching patience and waiting, they explained all they knew. Revan refused to accept their reasons and went against the council.

People turn against the Jedi Council all the time, turning Dark instead of staying light. Dooku turned to the Dark Side, Anakin did, and a few others but those are most famous. Why are they not fiasco's? How did the Kotor Council go wrong and the PT council not?

And Just for kicks whats wrong with the conquering the galaxy to save it thing? It could very well be true, its why Dooku did what he did.

1. "We have a reason! No, you can't know the reason! Just let millions of people die while we have our reason!" BRILLIANT idea. They never MENTIONED the diea of another threat.

2. People don't turn to the Dark side all the time. Dooku left the Order. He turned dark after that. Anakin turned dark before any Jedi even knew. Onl Obi-wan had a HINT of his issues.

3. You'll notice Dooku was doing it politically and unlike Revan had no illusions about a 'greater threat.' There's a bit of an issue with depelting half your forces and galactic resources in a war, then trying to become a savior to everyone who's lost because of you being a treacherous scum insteading of using a hero status where people'd listen to you

Revan didn't have illusions about a greater threat, he really did see something during his reign as the Dark Lord. To save the galaxy he had to conquer it, knowing that embracing the dark side was the only way to defeat the horrible threat.

So....he became a vicious brutal tyrant rather than use his position as a war hero to rally believers to his banners and started a costly war?
GENIUS!

Originally posted by Fishy
People turn against the Jedi Council all the time, turning Dark instead of staying light. By the way I am gay. Dooku turned to the Dark Side, Anakin did, and a few others but those are most famous. Why are they not fiasco's? How did the Kotor Council go wrong and the PT council not?

I think it is because the more famous examples for the PT council turned to the dark side because of external factors (Count Dooku was greatly angered by the death of Jinn and he was always on edge as well, Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine and feared losing Padme). It is clear from the movies that the PT jedi masters were great teachers and very wise. Whereas KOTOR jedi masters were clearly bad teachers. This is shown especially with the way they treat the Exile.

In both cases, Dooku and Anakin were manipulated by Palpatine...Dooku had good intentions that Palp corrupted, same by Ani

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. "We have a reason! No, you can't know the reason! Just let millions of people die while we have our reason!" BRILLIANT idea. They never MENTIONED the diea of another threat.

2. People don't turn to the Dark side all the time. Dooku left the Order. He turned dark after that. Anakin turned dark before any Jedi even knew. Onl Obi-wan had a HINT of his issues.

3. You'll notice Dooku was doing it politically and unlike Revan had no illusions about a 'greater threat.' There's a bit of an issue with depelting half your forces and galactic resources in a war, then trying to become a savior to everyone who's lost because of you being a treacherous scum insteading of using a hero status where people'd listen to you

1. They told Revan everything they knew, it wasn't much... They just told him to wait a bit longer. Revan simply ignored that for his own greater good.

2.) And they turned to the Dark Side all the time during Kotor? Well okay they did then they did 50 years earlier, but it was hardly people that turned all the time. The PT era also didn't allow massive turning because there wasn't a strong and clear Dark Side threat that was recruiting Jedi to his cause.

3.) Revan did have illusions of a greater threat, its why he left after Kotor, the Jedi Council was clearly right about their believes, what those things are we don't know but there was a greater threat, his reasons for conquering the galaxy were also political.

As a war hero he could have never united the republic into a strong and powerful army, he couldn't have gotten the Jedi and the senate behind him easily, especially if they wouldn't want a war, which they probably wouldn't.

And I wouldn't really say that he became a tyrant, he may have been a Sith but at least he kept the republic infrastructure in tact, if he would really have been a brute the republic would have fallen already.

@ Kingman,

And Revan had no external factors to turn to the Dark Side, Malak had none? They would not have turned without external factors, the way the council treated the Exile? What did they do? They exiled somebody who should have been exiled, and like I already said it was their only real choice. They had their reasons, some believed he deserved to know. Others believed that he could still be following Revan and telling him would be far to dangerous.

The Kotor Council was not stupid.

1. And how effective they were. They basically told the entire order just to 'wait and observe'r ather than follow their own rules.

2. A massive army of Jedi going Darkside should count for something...

3. Revan left, abandoning his friends who could've been of great help, the council who'd have been of great help, the Mandalorians who'd have been of great help....that's not too bright. His war hero status could have rallied numerous peoples and worlds and peoples behind him....it's a bit brighter than depleting half the galaxy's resources in a war to make him a despised tyrant-infastructure or no, he was killing loads of people and established himself as a traitor, as well as sucking the lives out of his own men. Just because he kept an infrastructure intact doesn't mean it wasn't a bad idea

1. Thats all they knew, of course it didn't turn out to be effective, but the council telling Anakin he wasn't allowed to love wasn't very effective either now was it?

2. Yeah, but like I said different times different things happen, it hardly makes that council suck.

3. Which Revan are you complaining about now? The one that left after the Mandelorian wars or the one that left after Kotor? They had no influeince on the second one... The one that left after the Mandelorian wars did take his friends and a large army with him. Now I don't know the reason he didn't take them with them after Kotor, neither do you. But Revan had his reasons, we don't know how those will pay off, but we'll probably find out in Kotor III.

And yeah Revan probably wanted power he wanted to conquer the galaxy, so did Anakin. He just did it in a different way again thats not the council his fault. But whatever the case Revan could still have been fighting to stop something else, maybe he thought he could never work with the republic or the Jedi Coucnil again, maybe he really believed that they were worthless fools that could not help him, or maybe he just wanted them to die to gain power, whatever the case it still doesn't make the Kotor Council stupid, and it still doesn't make Sidious more powerful then Malak.

1. It was a common proceedure...it wasn't as if they knew what an emotional loose cannon Anakin was. Hell, they certainly didn't know about him'n Padme
2. If the council had honored their duty to the galaxy and the Force, that would never have happened...
3. I was talking about Revan post KOTOR. But, yes, Revan's entire strategems were flawed.

Thing is, there's little-if anything to support the old era of Jedi being greater than the new era. in Palpatine's age, the Sith had evolved, become far more powerful, new techniques in the force and lightsaber dueling and Palpatine is undoubtedly smarter than Malak. By ROTS or the OT, he's still an undisputed Dark Side master and if there's one thing the Jedi of his era have on Malak: Speed. Malak's strong, but he's never really shown himself to such a high plateau. The only thing that puts Malak high up is the 'Ancient Jedi>The new Jedi' stereotype. In a time of people like Dooku, Mace and Yoda...of the fully evolved, pinnacle of the Sith...I honestly don't see Malak winning this. If Palpatine is fast and good enough to kill Kit Fisto, saesee Tiin- a TELEPATH no less and agen Kolar....Kit and Agen being some of the finest warriors the order ever produced and strong enough tos quare off with Yoda, one of, if not the strongest master the Order'd ever known....I'll give him Mace, but there were a lot of factors there: MAce was physically stronger, the fight had not ended yet, Sidious's motives are dubious there.

I'm gonna be civil in debating now, sorry about the earlier rows

1. When a similar situation led to the Sith War just a generation ago...such a vicious war would lead to darkness, not to mention Revan's brutal, coldhearted tactics.

2. Revan certainly avoided this trap. And as for the Clone Wars...the Seperatists were being led by a Sith, both inside and out. The Jedi had to fight, to spare suffering and stop Dooku.

3. I was more going after Revan there.

4. The Miraluka weren't anywhere near gone after KOTOR and there's also very little to support the loss of techniques. Thanks to the holocrons and still living masters, things were well passed on. PAlpatine supposedly studied Sith holocrons thoroughly and Yoda had access to Vodo's. It is totally incorrect to say the Sith don't give their knowledge to every apprentice. Palpatine/Plageuis thing....we don't know if Plageuis could do all he said he could. Palpatine learned how to influence midichlorians from him, but saving people from dying? Saving PEOPLE HE LOVED from dying? A blatant lie. Bane made it a point of teaching everything to the apprentice. Bane's line got stronger with every apprentice. He taught Zannah literally everything he knew, she developed things of her own, taught all that to HER apprentice...and so on and so forth. each apprentice had the strenght of the master with a bit more. This was in the Dark Side sourcebook, I believe.
Kit, Agen and Saesee...we've seen them in action and they are anything but slow. Agen's skill put Mace on his guard and Kit was so fast he could hardly be seen to move to Obi-wan. There is nothing to support the Sith got weaker...in fact, there is everything to support it was the opposite. the ROTS novelization sums it up completely and for the EU, that is a perfectly valid source. And in KOTOR's combat, we do see Malak fight...he's hardly fast. And decided with a saber? No way, Sidious would outsmart him there...or destroy him with the darkside. ROTS era Sidious can tear apart a ship with the force or kill a small army with lightning...without even exerting himself. And who says Malak's supreme with a saber?

See, in Ruusan, the Jedi improved drastically: They had to. They kept that strength until the time of the PT when Yoda realized the Sith had always been changing and evolving. In there, Yoda is described as the most powerful enemy the darkness had ever known. There is never a hint to support the Jedi declined in strength. Hell, the Jedi in Kun's age were sure stronger than, say....Empress Teta's age.. The Jedi in Ruusan were stronger than that. They came back from a near genocide after a thousand brutal years of Sith rule and wiped the Sith out to one army.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When a similar situation led to the Sith War just a generation ago...such a vicious war would lead to darkness, not to mention Revan's brutal, coldhearted tactics.

And how does that excuse the PT Council or make the Kotor Council worse?



Well there wasn't a trap, but Revan did go after the greater threat in the end, so really he didn't stop that. And thats exactly the point if the Jedi Council would have taken time and if it would have informed itself better instead of rushing into a war to save one Jedi then perhaps they could have ended this and perhaps they could have stopped Sidious. Instead they died and Sidious ruled the galaxy for a very long time before he was finally destroyed. It didn't really turn out for the best, unlike what the Kotor Council did, for as far as we can tell the Republic hasn't fallen.



What does Revan have to do with the so called idiocy of the Kotor council? So far all I can gather from all of this is that you think the Kotor council is stupid but you ignore the stupidity of the PT era council which made a lot mistakes as wel.



"Yes she holds the last of the Jedi teachings its good that she survived Zez Kai talking about Kreia.

"Much has been lost in recent wars" - The disciple talking about Jedi Knowledge

Thats during Kotor II... Atris holds the last of the Jedi teachings, now sure some of it could have survived but apparantly most of it has been lost, thats 20.000+ years of history down the drain. After that Atris turned to the Dark Side and died... A lot of knowledge was lost just in one war...



Its not really in their ideals, to make themselves weaker and strengthen others its not their style to do so, so why would they?



Sidious himself admitted he hadn't learned everything yet.




Then how come he died in one attack and Mace defeated Sidious? Seriously those guys were nothing compared to Mace and no matter what you say the way they died is just phathetic.



Actually the movie novelizations are not cannon they contradict the movie in a lot of things... So that doesn't count.



Sidious would outsmart him? Malak was no idiot, he was a tactless brute yes, he wasn't a military genius but he was a brilliant fighter and would not be outsmarted in a fight he isn't stupid.

and defeat him with the dark side, you still haven't shown us anything that would make ROTS Sidious more powerful then Malak with the force, especially not powerful enough to destroy him with the force.



DE Sidious and ROTS Sidious are two completely different people, and who says so? Ohh hmm just about everybody in Kotor I and II.

1. The Old Council knew what Revan was doing and how and why. They could easily have interceded for him.

2. At the time, it was stopping Dooku that interested them and hopefully getting him to talk about Darth Sidious. Revan went about the other threat completely the wrong way and for all we know: Failed miserably.

3. The PT era mistakes are far more excusable considering noone knew what Anakin was up to and they had the Sith right on their doorstep-Palpatine.

4. Continuity errors then. Would Zaz be meaning before or after he pulls a saber on Kreia, recognizing her as Sith? Atris's well of info will be utilized by the Handmaiden later. Don't ask me how the information survived but it did, especially with the old holocrons being held by the new Jedi. Yoda had Vodo's like I said.

5. No, Palpatine said "We'll learn the secret of bringing people from the dead and saving them" That was more than likely a lie. He knew literally everything else.

6. The DS sorucebook says on the issue that the Sith masters knew they'd one day die and needed the Sith to continue strong until the day they could topple the Republic and Jedi. Sidious wasn't exactly mr. conventional though.

7. I'm sorry, but from what we've seen of those three, they were VERY impressive. Sidious was just that good, and that's all there is to it. Like I said, the Mace Sidious thing is very dubious and they never reached a steady conclusion. If the fight actively continued, Sidious would've switched tactics.

8. No, in the EU they DO count and Chee himself pointed out things in the novelization to explain questions. The policy is, if the pasaage in question contradicts nothing, it's in the EU.

9. Who would the Dark Side favor...the guy who took apart the Republic and Jedi Order or an upstart like Malak? Malak may not be stupid, but neither was the entirety of the Jedi Order and Republic and look how that ended. Palpatine is simply far smarter than Malak. And as for the Dark Side, Sidious is a supreme master of it by ROTS.

10. Those feats were done by ROTS Sidious, actually. And Malak's skill with a saber is hardly mentioned. Like I said, the deaths of those three were to show how good Sidious was. Want to argue Agen, Saesee and Kit's feats?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So....he became a vicious brutal tyrant rather than use his position as a war hero to rally believers to his banners and started a costly war?
GENIUS!

Prove that he was a brutal tyrant.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When a similar situation led to the Sith War just a generation ago...such a vicious war would lead to darkness, not to mention Revan's brutal, coldhearted tactics.

2. Revan certainly avoided this trap. And as for the Clone Wars...the Seperatists were being led by a Sith, both inside and out. The Jedi had to fight, to spare suffering and stop Dooku.

3. I was more going after Revan there.

4. The Miraluka weren't anywhere near gone after KOTOR and there's also very little to support the loss of techniques. Thanks to the holocrons and still living masters, things were well passed on. PAlpatine supposedly studied Sith holocrons thoroughly and Yoda had access to Vodo's. It is totally incorrect to say the Sith don't give their knowledge to every apprentice. Palpatine/Plageuis thing....we don't know if Plageuis could do all he said he could. Palpatine learned how to influence midichlorians from him, but saving people from dying? Saving PEOPLE HE LOVED from dying? A blatant lie. Bane made it a point of teaching everything to the apprentice. Bane's line got stronger with every apprentice. He taught Zannah literally everything he knew, she developed things of her own, taught all that to HER apprentice...and so on and so forth. each apprentice had the strenght of the master with a bit more. This was in the Dark Side sourcebook, I believe.
Kit, Agen and Saesee...we've seen them in action and they are anything but slow. Agen's skill put Mace on his guard and Kit was so fast he could hardly be seen to move to Obi-wan. There is nothing to support the Sith got weaker...in fact, there is everything to support it was the opposite. the ROTS novelization sums it up completely and for the EU, that is a perfectly valid source. And in KOTOR's combat, we do see Malak fight...he's hardly fast. And decided with a saber? No way, Sidious would outsmart him there...or destroy him with the darkside. ROTS era Sidious can tear apart a ship with the force or kill a small army with lightning...without even exerting himself. And who says Malak's supreme with a saber? I have a theory to what you said about the Sith Lines, Lightsnake.

Vader was truly the last of the New Order Sith. He WOULD have been the most powerful, but he was crippled. Sidious was the most powerful because Vader was crippled. Vader was the last Sith because he destroyed Sidious and turned back to the Light, fulfilling the prophecy.

That's my understanding. That might add some proof that Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord.

Originally posted by D_CP
Prove that he was a brutal tyrant.

Putting monsters like Karath, Uthar and Malak in any position of power

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. The Old Council knew what Revan was doing and how and why. They could easily have interceded for him.

They knew he went off to fight the Mandelorians, thats all they knew, they disagreed but killing him was still the wrong thing to do. They couldn't do anything against him, when he left to the unknown regions they knew nothing when he returned at the front of an invasion fleet it was already to late. Without betraying the Jedi code they could never have stopped him.



Or succeeded, we already know that the PT Jedi failed misserably, they died afterall. Revan can very well still save the republic the Jedi and stop the unknown threat. You don't know, so at this moment the Kotor Jedi Council still have a chance, while the PT Jedi already failed.



Why? Because the Kotor Council wasn't allowed to stop Revan? They probably talked to him a lot or tried to it didn't work. The PT Council at least a few of them suspected Anakin, but did you see Mace or Yoda stop him. Did you see anybody try to draw him closer to the Jedi Order? No, instead they send him towards Palpatine somebody that had an above normal influeince on him, they should realise that, especially with Obi Wan in the council, there is no excuse for there foolishness.



Argh I meant to say Atris... And I never said none of the information survived, but most of it had been lost. That is clear by what they say, some would have survived but a lot of knowledge had been lost in those wars.



And that is more likely then not a lie, Could Vader do everything Sidious could? Did he learn everything Sidious could teach him? Of course not, why not? Becuase it would make Sidious weaker and Vader stronger and the Sith still only care about themselves it would be a foolish thing to make yourself weaker and your apprentice more powerful.



Meaning what exactly? How does that proof anything?



Yes i'm sure he would have switched tactics when he didn't have a lightsaber, it was going to be almost impossible for him to still defeat Mace, face it he lost that battle.



I'm not even going to argue this with you, its to freaking boring. Do a search for some older threads about this, will you?



So now Palpatine has to win because the Dark Side likes him more? What bullshit is that? The Dark Side will favour none, thats a stupid reason to enter in a debate, and Palpatine was a smarter politician then Malak, he was far from the smarter fighter if he was he wouldn't have lost from Mace, when he was still more powerful then Mace. And Sidious is not the supreme Master thats just your bias for Sidious talking.



Hardly mentioned, he is described as a freaking lightsaber prodigy and the greatest front line soldier in the war, and during Kotor itself everybody see's him as the most powerful person in existance. And yes actually those Jedi were nothing compared to Mace, they would have died easily against people like Revan, Bastila Kavar. They just stood there while Sidious was slaughtering them, and then Mace moved up and stopped Sidious. Those guys were average they could never stand up to the greats. Malak on the other hand is one of those...

1. As opposed to confining him?
2. Last I checked, the KOTOR council died a lot sooner than the PT council, whose leader lasted long enough to train the new hope of the galaxy.
3. Who suspected him at all? And tried to talk to Revan when he's leading a veritable army? Noone KNEW what Anakin was doing with Padme, only Obi-wan had a hint and he tried his damn hardestadt in the Clone Wars
4. Well, a lot of the info survived. Thanks to those holocrons Yoda had, I'd say, or the Handmaiden.
5. Sidious was a very special case. Since he'd discovered body swapping he never planned to be replaced. He gave Vader a lot of Sith secrets though, and Vader learned more on Korriban.
6. This shows they taught their apprentice literally everything and in many cases the apprentice learned more on the side.
7. The battle never ended, 1 and Sidious did switch tactics and it won him the war. In a force battle? If Sidious was seriously about that lightning? Mace is street pizza.
8. Please try to contradict official words on the matter.
9. Mace is one of the best swordsmen the Order'd ever known, period. And actually, my 'bias' comes from the DS sourcebook. He even had Arden Lyn, one of the first two Dark Jedi serving him at his heel for a while.
10. HAH! Those Jedi were 'three of the best fighters the Order had ever known.' That's just your bias talking. Kit didn't just 'stand there'. It was bad photography and this was even said. Sidious is slowed down for the viewer, or the filming and choreography was screwed up. And Malak the strongest in existence? Malak one of the greats? Please, he's a foot note for the Dark Side. He's dismissed left and right in the KOTOR sequel. And unless he'd last a second against Thon or Vodo...

1. How could they arrest the hero of the Republic army's? Even at the start of the war it would have been political suicide, doing something like that would make all the Jedi that wanted to follow Revan turn against the Order and probably most of the Republic too, taking away their only hope. It would hav ebeen suicide to do so.

2. Perhaps all the council members are dead we don't know, we do know however that the Kotor Council was killed by something else then Revan, Kreia afterall at that time was acting completely on her own, Revan is not at fault. And the PT council died in ROTS along with the entire Jedi Order, Yoda and Obi Wan survived, but the Jedi Order and the council were still destroyed. They didn't even teach Luke the way they taught other Jedi, they just taught him to make him able to fight. The Jedi Order was destroyed.

3. Mace Windu never liked the kid, Obi Wan suspected something and yet he did nothing, he was a member of the council, Yoda felt the conflict in him during AOTC, yet he did nothing. They could have done more then the Kotor Council could have done.

5. Okay so Sidious was a special case, you still haven't explained why Sith would go against their very code, weaken themselves and strengthen others? They are their first priority. Besides Plagius probably didn't learn Sidious everything either, at least there is nothing to show he did, except for your own assumption.

6. No, it doesn't say that they taught their apprentices everything tha twould still be against the Sith way.

7. We are talking about the battle not the war, Sidious never had the power to take out Mace through the force when he was down, he should have done it at the start of the fight, the only thing he was faking was his lack of power, not that he couldn't destroy Mace with the force. Sidious had lost, if Anakin wouldn't have showed up he would have died.

8. Do a search for a thread about it

9. The PT order yes, and Malak was of the later order, so that means well nothing. And the Dark Side would not favour Sidious in a fight, thats a stupid thing to say. People don't win because the force likes them more.

10. Those guys would be screwed fighting most Jedi and Sith Lords of older times, simple as that. Sidious killing them is not impressive and he still lost from Mace, he isn't a lightsaber god you know.

You know debating with you is actually kinda boring, because you still haven't given me one real reason why Sidious would beat Malak.

We know Malak has great lightsaber skills, from Vrook, Vandar, Zez Kai, Bastila, Bandon and Kavar. And then i'm not evening mentioning the one's that probably know but I can't be sure off, these guys however all saw him fight or fought him. They should know.

We know he is powerful with the force, more powerful then most of the Jedi Order powerful enough to control the Star Forge that absorbed anybody that was to weak to do it, ex Jedi high Council members were to weak to do it. We know he can shoot lightning as well, we know he defeated a lot of Jedi in lightsaber combat and that he could easily choke two Jedi shoot them with lightning and throw a lightsaber at the other at the same time. The guy has power with the force and is the second greatest lightsaber fighter of that time.

How could Sidious who couldn't even overpower Mace with the force and couldn't destroy him with a lightsaber possibly stand a chance against that?

1. Y'know, perhaps they could do something before he went off to war as opposed to 'sit down, do nothing and jeer.
2. And there's a plus for Palpy. And it seems Yoda and Obi-wan's training resulted in Luke becoming the savior of the galaxy. Great job.
3. Mace's personal dislike of Anakin meant something? Yoda did quite a bit to help him and so did Obi-wan. A'Sharad Hett helped absolve him of the rage from his mother's death. Anakin never confessed anything about Padme and noone knew about it.
4. I've explained it: They knew the survival of the order and strengthening it was more important than them individually, Bane practically quoted that.
5. against the Sith way, or what you think is the Sith way? The DS sourcebook disagrees with you heavily, especially as Bane's order had quite a few new rules.
6. Not according to 'Purge' when Anakin asks Palpatine how he was taken by Mace when he could ahve destroyed him via the Force-citing how Palpatine blasted back with more pwoer than he was before. Would have died? He'd have won if the fight continued either way. If MAce took him in as he wanted to, what would've happened? How did Palpatine go off on him with lightning greater than he did BEFORE his face melted?
7. Translation: You can't misprove official sources. I'm inclined to believe Sansweet and Chee over you.
8. You mean like the dark Side didn't favor him during the PT era?
9. Oh, Palpatine wipes out armies with force lightning, tears apart ships with the Force-in the ROTS ERA. Mace was only the third best swordsman the order'd produced in nearly ten thousand years. And no other Jedi tRIED to harness the Star Forge, no biggie. And Yoda himself declares Sidious to be the mightiest warrior the Darkness had produced and the Jedi'd faced. In Force power, Malak would be torn apart. Or Palpatine would simply use Vaapad and tear Malak to pieces.

1. How? he went of to war without telling them most likely, its not like he walked into the council and said, "hey i'm leaving to fight a war that you don't want me, and don't try to stop me because now is your only real chance to do it and well I don't want to be stopped." He isn't an idiot you know. the counciil could do nothing.

2. And all of a sudden a plus for Palpy is good for the PT council? We were debating the idiocy of the PT council and something stupid and their failure is all of a sudden not a failure because of Palpatine? If thats how these things work then wow... And yeah it did end up in that, but not with the Jedi Order in tact which was what we were debating now wasn't it?

3. Nobody knew Revan was going to leave either, yet still we know that the signs were there for Anakin. They did nothing, you can make up excuses all you want fact is they didn't stop it, which makes them wrong...

4. Well show me the quote then, because this is the first time I have ever heard of that, and you have been known to lie on several other occasions to proof yourself right.

5. So the order was all of a sudden more important then the live of one person? Strange then how Sidious never learned Anakin all when he should have realised he could have died somehow sometime.

6. Does it matter? Lucas said that Mace overpowered Sidious, the only thing he was faking was the Oh I'm so weak part... He couldn't have defeated Mace, unless you want to go against Lucas now.

7. Translation, i'm to lazy to go into another debate about this when it has been done a million times, do a search.

8. You mean like that matters in a fight? For crying out load we are talking about who is more powerful. And the Dark Side sure didn't help Anakin against Obi Wan when the Dark Side had almost alreadyd won the war. So its just bullshit that, that will decide the fight.

9. When did he do that exactly? He couldn't even overpower Mace with force lightning... And Mace the third best in nearly 10.000 years? Proof it.

And actually a lot of others tried to control the Star Forge, all the powerful one's that remained after Malak his dead. But they got absorbed by the thing because they were to weak.

"Many have tried to control the Star forge, all of them have failed. They were devoured their life drained from them." - Bastila Shan. This includes a Jedi High Council Member that joined Revan and Malak in the war, that survived Revan his return, according to the disciple.

1. Were they REALLY dumb enough to beleive he was leaving with a massive force for no other reason BUT war?
2. Palpatine's skill, not their deficiency
3. What signs for Anakin? Just because WE knew...
4. "There should be two: One to embody the power and one to crave it, and when the first has taught the second all he knows, the second becomes the first and the first becomes nothing."
5. Have we established Sidious was a special case and itnended to live forever yet?
6. Not my falt you misinterpret him: He said Palpatine was faking from the moment Anakin came in. "First Mace overpowers Sidious, then Sidious exagerrates his weakness when Anakin comes in." And it's been agreed upon massively that he faked the lightning part completely, unless you want to say he somehow got a second wind.
7 There is no debate. Novelizations and scripts are sure as hell continuity where they don't contradict.
8. Tell it to Zannah and Bane.
9. Dark Rendevous. Mace is declared the third best when Yoda fights Dooku. And couldn;t overpower Mace? Give me a break, he was fkaing that part entirely. Lucas only referred to the kick. The 'physically overpowered, THEN Anakin comes in.' otherwise...how did he use MORE power than he had before he was supposedly beaten?
10. Other Sith, then. Most likely weaklings. Moreover, what supports Malak, a tactless brute who'd been a Sith for several years taking on Palpatine? He could control the Star Forge, so? Not gonna help him in the fight. Could he destroy ships with the force or use Force lightning to destroy armies? Does he drain the energy from Byss or outlast death itself? Does he know Vaapad or the ability to change his fighting style to trick an opponent?

1. Yes. They could have restrained him before he left after numerous debates and arguments...

2. Because Revan was right there and Palpatine was manipulating him. and the KOTOR council ignored their sacred duty.

3. Who ever saw him alone with Padme? And he confessed his murder of the Tuskens to A'Sharad who was the only Jedi who could understand...and 'faint ripple' in the Force is hardly instant cause for blame.
4. Maybe because it was followed religiously by the Sith down to Plageuis until Palpatine who was the first to break tradition and the like up to Bane?
5. How many actually could? Not a single one in Bane's order. Dooku said they'd accepted one day their apprentices would finish them. Hell, often the Apprentice died.
6. Explain how Palpatine strikes back with stronger lightning and SW.com, discussing the very subject said 'It's obvious Sidious was faking the force lightning' part.
7. Thank you for accepting it.
8. Force sure as hell backed the Skywalker twins. And PAlpatine during the prequels.
9. Third best the entire order had EVER produced. Yes, yes that seems so ambiguous.
10. Would you get it that all I have listed is ROTS era Sidious?
11. Noone like Coleman Trebor in that era? Have you even READ the comics? Ever heard of Crado or Satal Keto? How about Gav Daragon or Ludo Kressh? How about Zona Luka?
12. Wow, let's just forget Sidious's era had lightsaber styles, techniques and abilityies developed since Ruusan that Malak's era didn't have. Interesting how Malak was only ever seen to fight twice and only once conclusively. Something more than hearsay, please. and like I said: The feats I've listed haven't been DE era Sidious

http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Mandalore_the_Ultimate

Mandalore the Ultimate.

1. Who says those debates and arguments where ever there? Who says Revan didn't say he believed them or would follow them. Besides locking him up would have been stupid, he was a hero amongst Jedi even before he left to join the Mandelorian wars.

2. Palpatine was right there too, Revan could have left without warning, and I have already explained that the Kotor Council had a reason for waiting, and the Kotor era Jedi were not the sworn protectors of the Republic. They had no sacred duty to safe the republic.

3. No but perhaps it was all a reason for research, they never did it. Pointing out the fault in one council but ignoring the fault the other made is stupid, both were wrong both made mistakes. Neither one of them could have really been prevented and they weren't.

4. How do you know that? Do we even know about any of the other Sith until Palps save one or two?

5. Your point being? Just because nobody could doesn't mean nobody tried, Sidious failed in his mission too he still tried.

6. Quote on the last one please..

7. I never did...

8. It never backed Anakin, it didn't stop Palpatine from losing from Mace. Force backing up somebody is a foolish argument and it didn't stop Palps from dying/being defeated in ROTJ either. So really even if it would be a good argument it could turn around in a second.

9. And thats just bullshit because there is no proof of it.

10. Would you get it that, that has nothing to do with point 10. Really if you can't defeat it don't argue it with something off topic.

11. Were any of them from that Era? Would you compare Kressh to Trebor?

12. Oh come on, man.. Its new years now i'll continue this post tomorrow. But one thing stop being so biased... Really you accept things from one side that you refuse to accept from the other side... its crap.

1. You?
2. Right. Which ignored their sworn duty and got them all killed in the end.
3. Fine, good sum up of the scenario.
4. Bane, Zannah, Millenial, Plageuis, Ruin...yep, we know of quite a bit.
5. He wiped out the Jedi. I'd say he succeeded in the entire goal of the Sith order
6. "Even though the force lightning scene is an obvious fake for Anakin, the saber duel has been an intense subject of debate." May be off a bit, but that's the gist. Feel free to ask about it on SW.com, though
7. Either argue it or concede it.
8. The Force was certainly backing the Skywalkers in ROTJ. And no matter how you slice the Mace fight-STILL no explanation to how Mace supposedly beat him at the lightning segment when he strikes back viciously seconds later with mroe power than the last time. And how you see the ghost of a smile on his face while his eyes flick to Anakin. And the self satisfied smirk before he zaps Mace...
9. Dark Rendevous. ROTS novelization. In print.
10. You mean 'Keep saying 'it's not DE Sidious' and ignore how the feats lsited are NOT DE Sidious?
11. In lack of brains, oh yeah. and Crado, Satal Keto especially...even if the stubbornness of Mace, the whininess of AOTC Anakin and the worthlesness of Coleman Trebor were made into one Jedi, it'd be something like Crado.
12. Oh, no offense, but look who's talking on the bias bit.anyways, ahve a happy new year. I don't bear you any malice for for the record. We're both exceptionally hardheaded on this topic anyways. If it's ok with you, can we continue this via IM? Both my addresses are in my profile

1. Actually no, I never mentioned numerous debates... And even if they were there, how would you explain looking up a charismatic young Jedi that has done nothing wrong? Try explaining that to the other Jedi.

2. Again had their reasons, Revan went after that reason so we know there was definitly something there just not what, and hmm what sworn duty they didn't have it. Read my post better next time will you?

3. That still leaves a lot to be desired, proof that they taught their apprentices everything? Oh wait you can't.

5. I was talking about immortality... Not taking over the republic.

6. Last I heard the only weak part was when he said he was so weak because he knew he couldn't overcome Mace with lightning. I'll check it though.

7. Just do a search please, this is getting boring.

8. And it stopped backing Sidious, the force if it really can be used as an argument in a fight can apparently change oppinions and start thinking different things liking different people, so really it means nothing. And wouldn't you be happy zapping one of your most hated enemy's to death? I'd probably smile, especially if I was a Sith Lord.

9. Oh yeah, strange never heard that before. Didn't even see it when I read it. Mace was one of the best of that time, but ever? They couldn't even know. Besides its not like they kept rank lists, first best second best. Oh wait this guy is good maybe he should become second...

10. And that still doesn't haven't anything to do with the points I made two posts ago.

11. And that still wasn't during Kotor.

12. Nah sometimes these things can get heated but I never or at least try to never start disliking somebody becuase of this, and I would continue it through IM's but I only have MSN

Also in Kotor all the lightsaber style's existed, see Kotor II. Thats only five years later, its impossible that all those styles were developed in 5 years really impossible, let alone stand mastered too. Vaapad was not, but Vaapad is still a bit like Juyo only better. The essence of the style would probably still be recognized.

And Sidious still lost a lightsaber fight from Mace, who was very good to say the least but he isn't great with a lightsaber, Mace had several chances to kill him in the fight but never did. Malak who fought for most of his life, would not hesitate like that.

I have MSN, it's in my profile...I'm sorry I'm not replying in full now, but there are some issues going on so I'm....really not in a mood to do a huge response.

All I'll say is Juyo was totally incomplete until Mace and Sora developed Vaapad. And while both are aggressive, force use couldn't be more different.

Mace had also fought for most his life and was one of the great lightsaber fights. You're confusing bad choreography with character choices, otherwise after the spin, Sidious would've taken off Mace's legs. And the little smile before he zaps Mace was described as 'satisfied.' Malak would at least be caught off guard by Sidious using a style that turns his own power in the darkside around him and switching off styles.

We don't know what style Malak would use he could very well have developed his own style, or changed an already existing style. Sidious also doesn't know Vaapad, so that doesn't even matter.

Malak's a brute. He'd probably just knee Sids in the balls...