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A third of all women who make rape allegations have been drinking, reveals a new police report published today.

The Scotland Yard dossier illustrates the difficulties of recording and prosecuting rape allegations with 13 per cent of victims who contact police 'unsure' if they have been raped or not.

The report looks at 677 allegations of rape reported in London in April and May this year. Of those, 511 were recorded as crimes with 166 recorded as 'not crime' or 'no crime.' This was because of factors such as insufficient evidence to classify the allegation as rape.

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick said that while the report had positives points - such as the high number of reported cases - work still needs to be done to protect and support vulnerable victims.

Mr Paddick said: "We believe that there is need for a major rethink in some cases about how we investigate and prosecute these offences.

"We are determined to protect those vulnerable victims and we are looking to introduce solutions for those most difficult of cases.

"There are positive factors in that we are getting more people come forward who want us to help them clear up their own confusion over whether sexual intercourse or rape has taken place."

Mr Paddick said although it is difficult to charge and prosecute on alcohol-related allegations, the Met were looking at alternative means of pursuing cases, especially when the victim can't remember what has happened.

He said: "We need to look at ways, other than putting vulnerable victims in a situation where they have to appear in front of an adverserial prosecution or courtroom environment.

"We do get cases where someone can't remember what has happened to them, in cases like this we need to look at things like interviewing the alleged offender in such a way that they need to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to how consent was given. We get cases where sexual intercourse has taken place, but there is an issue over consent.

"We can also look at getting forensic evidence as soon as possible which can back up an allegation of rape."

Mr Paddick also drew attention to recent advertising campaigns from the Met Police and the Greater London Authority encouraging women not to get into illegal minicabs which he said had helped reduce attacks by illegal minicab drivers.

Raising awareness about the dangers of alcohol could help reduce related rape allegations.

Today's report was commissioned by the Metropolitan Police to thoroughly examine the way rape cases are investigated. The research also recommended that classifying a rape allegation as 'no crime' or 'not crime'
should be solely left to one designated body under Operation Sapphire, rather than each Police borough deciding for themselves

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
A third of all women who make rape allegations have been drinking, reveals a new police report published today.

Wow, that's alot of Hennessey

Backfire made a thread somewhat like this didn't he

I always feel a bit horny when I am drunk

I wonder what percentage of the rapists had been drinking?

Originally posted by amity75
I wonder what percentage of the rapists had been drinking?

Somehow I believe that is harder to find out.

No kidding.. They get abused when they are vulnerable. Duh..

Girl gets drunk

Girl has sex

Girl regrets it and gets pregnent

Girl goes to the police and cries rape to save face in front of her family..because she is a ****.

Originally posted by KidRock
Girl gets drunk

Girl has sex

Girl regrets it and gets pregnent

Girl goes to the police and cries rape to save face in front of her family..because she is a ****.

Some truth in this their is.

irrelevant of how you feel about him, Kidrock is right sometimes. this is one of those times, i agree.

Originally posted by KidRock
Girl gets drunk

Girl has sex

Girl regrets it and gets pregnent

Girl goes to the police and cries rape to save face in front of her family..because she is a ****.

But how often do you think that happens?

Originally posted by K.Diddy
I always feel a bit horny when I am drunk Really?

Originally posted by Bardock42
But how often do you think that happens?

More than we would like to admit

Originally posted by KidRock
Girl gets drunk

Girl has sex

Girl regrets it and gets pregnent

Girl goes to the police and cries rape to save face in front of her family..because she is a ****.


Yep. As soon as a girl does this I believe she is fair game to actually be raped, so she can see what horror's she's trivializing by doing this cuntish bullshit.

Originally posted by BackFire
Yep. As soon as a girl does this I believe she is fair game to actually be raped, so she can see what horror's she's trivializing by doing this cuntish bullshit.

I agree with you.

This reminds me of the central park jogger case, or the case of the woman gang-raped in a bar which was made into a movie with jodie foster.

1) No matter what!!! the final responsibility for the actions of a rapist rests With The Rapist!!! Regardless of the temptation, he is Still Making a Choice!!!

However........

2) The central park jogger did contribute to her situation by exercising lousy judgment; the woman who was gang-raped in the bar also (IMO) failed to exercise common sense. Did this mean either woman "deserved" to be attacked? Definitely not. But neither would they have been attacked Had They Used Their Heads.

For the last 30 years or more, there has been an overwhelming emphasis on "I have the right to such-n-such..." without equal emphasis on personal responsibility. If a man rapes, he is making a choice, He is responsible for his actions. But if a woman is gonna dress provocatively, hang around with a bunch of guys, and everyone's drinking, there may well be a price to pay for her own lack of common sense and personal responsibility. Sorry, you can't do whatever the hell you want simply because "I have the right...!"

This is the real world. Use your head.

Originally posted by Mindship
But if a woman is gonna dress provocatively, hang around with a bunch of guys, and everyone's drinking, there may well be a price to pay for her own lack of common sense and personal responsibility. Sorry, you can't do whatever the hell you want simply because "I have the right...!"



Precisely. For that reason, fault can partially lie with the person attacked. That's not to say a person cannot dress how they want to dress, but if you will dress provocatively in dangerous situations you're tempting fate.

That's why I always have a videocamera and a written consent form at the ready while I'm on the pull.

I believe in some places you can't give consent if you're intoxicated or under the influence of drugs...

Still, it's a sad state of the world where "dressing provocatively" invites rape, or more accurately "tempts fate." Isn't that one of the reasons Muslims give for wanting their women to wear head to toe burkas, so mens lust doesn't get inflamed?

Though it's quite a bad thing when a vital part of the law is clogged with false accusations, as it disrupts the legal process, and reduces the effectiveness of dealing with real rapists, and helping real victims. Because due to the serious nature of rape, every accusations has to be taken seriously.

And I must admit, I didn't think it was all that hard to decide if one has been raped or not - if a person says no, and the other person goes ahead then it's rape, is it not? (Even regardless of how a person is dressed, or how "heavy" things had been going, choice, choice to say no, exists regardless.) Or if a person is taken advantage of while in an unconscious or vastly reduced mental state, that is also considered rape I thought. There doesn't seem to be a great deal of complexity in the definition of rape when relating to being forced into a sexual act against ones will.

Of course a lot of trouble seems to come with "date rape" where it's often one persons word against anothers, alchohol is often involved, girls and guys might do things they aren't proud of and make all sorts of claims, or they might be telling the truth. So hard to know.

That's why I'm all for mutual interrogation and anal probing.

I don't know what it'll prove, but I'm all for it. Just putting it out there.

Seriously though, it's a tough grey area. Too hard to come to a compromise that is 100% foolproof when dealling with rape, especially when alcohol is involved.

Originally posted by BackFire
Yep. As soon as a girl does this I believe she is fair game to actually be raped, so she can see what horror's she's trivializing by doing this cuntish bullshit.

A little clarification about "dressing provocatively."

There is a time and place for everything. Dressing provocatively isn't bad in and of itself. There is nothing wrong with a woman feeling good about herself and wanting to show her stuff. But, as the saying goes, timing is everything. There are some situations where common sense should prevail.

Especially in the last 25 years, there has been this "tendency toward empowerment" (everybody's oh-so tough and cool and hot, watch-out-for-me-I'm-in-your face) which (IMO) for women has meant being always provocative, provoking and looking to push buttons. Again, this does Not excuse the rapist, no-way-Jose. But if you're always gonna be lookin for a fight, so to speak, well, by george, at some point you're gonna get punched in the nose.

Sexually, our society has gone from repressive to progressive to obsessive. Too much sugar, baby, too much candy. Our teeth are starting to rot, but we're still licking our lips.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Still, it's a sad state of the world where "dressing provocatively" invites rape, or more accurately "tempts fate."

It is, but the way to challenge that isn't to go ahead anyway.

Wow, some people actually think that some 'rape victims' are actually evil women who try to get money out of a guy who had sex with her outside in the park and then laugh maniacally.

Well, sorry to break the bubble but most girls are often too ashamed to even go to the police so we should already give them credit if they have the courage to do so instead of feeding the fear they have of what people might think.

I know some of you might like to blaim the girl for getting raped because she got drunk or dressed provocatively but everybody tries to have a good time in pubs and get drunk and everybody wears their clothes according to the current ideal.

Guys get drunk all the time but have almost zero chance of getting raped by perverted sexually frustrated men and you can't blaim girls for dressing as everyone else because most of them are too insecure about themself to go against the general opinion of what is normal anyway.

Trust me.. It's not the girls' fault that people take advantage of them when they're vulnerable and then beat them up from the inside only to satisfy their instincts. And the idea of turning the victim role around is plain stupidity, not to mention, quite sad.

Originally posted by overlord


Guys get drunk all the time but have almost zero chance of getting raped by perverted sexually frustrated men and you can't blaim girls for dressing as everyone else because most of them are too insecure about themself to go against the general opinion of what is normal anyway.


You can, actually. If someone ignorantly gets into a dangerous situation- that could have been avoided had they acted more responsibly- then they need to exercise more sense.

You can't blaim girls in the case of rape. They can't be paranoid to consider every guy interested in them as "a dangerous situation"

They're not expecting it and some were even interested in the guy in question and they often don't even report it because they blame themselves for being taken advantage of. Some even trusted the guy.
You can't expect all girls to be cautious at all times because it still is a taboo in a sense, especially when people are so stupid to say that girls should be more responsible.

But still most rape situations happen when they really can't do anything back and with a random pervert who will most likely never be caught at all.
Punishment for any form of this act should therefor be heavily encouraged.

Originally posted by overlord
You can't blaim girls in the case of rape.

No one is doing so. Read what is posted.

Originally posted by overlord

They can't be paranoid to consider every guy interested in them as "a dangerous situation"

Who insinuated this?

Originally posted by overlord

They're not expecting it and some were even interested in the guy in question and they often don't even report it because they blame themselves for being taken advantage of. Some even trusted the guy.
You can't expect all girls to be cautious at all times because it still is a taboo in a sense, especially when people are so stupid to say that girls should be more responsible.

Please don't make up a paragraph of BS that I didn't say, then tack on the thing that I did say, as if I am condoning the argument you yourself set up.

Originally posted by overlord

But still most rape situations happen when they really can't do anything back and with a random pervert who will most likely never be caught at all.
Punishment for any form of this act should therefor be heavily encouraged.

I'm sure we all agree with this. I'm not sure of the relevance to the rest of the post, but I can safely say this isn't a novel idea you just formulated.

It looks like you have a specific argument to make. Instead of pretending people are saying something so you can oppose them, why don't you just state your point.

I by no means find it surprising that alcohol is a factor in a lot of cases of sexual assault. Or any sort of assault or other criminal offense for that matter. It seems fairly intuitive, and naturally tends to make the whole matter more difficult to handle. The whole matter does tend to support my skeptical attitude towards drinking.
I am, however, frankly a little shocked by the tendency posters here seem to have to jump to conclusions about how these women are in fact responsible for the situation or that their allegations are false because the involvement of alcohol. I'm not saying it's not possible but to immediately jump to that position as soon as alcohol comes into the conversation, without any actual facts to back it up, is pretty horrifying.

If you need it factually laid out that getting dressed up like a curb-dweller and becoming dangerously intoxicated around men, is irresponsible, then I suggest joining us in the real world before commenting on the issue.

Nobody is saying this is always the case, but if it is, then the female has some responsibility.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If you need it factually laid out that getting dressed up like a curb-dweller and becoming dangerously intoxicated around men, is irresponsible, then I suggest joining us in the real world before commenting on the issue.

Nobody is saying this is always the case, but if it is, then the female has some responsibility.

-AC

Agreed - Whose the girl in your sig AC she is hot.

Men have to be careful and realise some women will "cry rape" as well imo.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Agreed - Whose the girl in your si AC she is hot.

Many have to be careful and realise some women will "cry rape" as well imo.

Exactly. Some girls will actually agree to have sex with a man they otherwise may not sleep with, not like it in the morning and to save face, say that they were forced upon (note the SOME, because I can see an idiot replying with "NOT ALL WOMEN CRY RAPE!" Yes I know, shut up).

And the girl is Adriana Lima.

-AC

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
A third of all women who make rape allegations have been drinking, reveals a new police report published today.



SO? Still doesnt change the fact that its rape.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
SO? Still doesnt change the fact that its rape.

An allegation does not prove guilt of the person accused, so "No!" it's not a "fact that it's rape" till a court finds the accused guilty, and if the accuser is drunk it is that much harder to prove culpability on the part of the accused. It actually does not help victims in Rape cases.

Drunken wedding proposals are legitimate in your eyes then? People do and say a lot of things that aren't true under alcoholic influences.

One of these things is make rape allegations.

-AC

My point is, that its not relevant whether or not the woman had been drinking if a rape occurs. Operative word being IF.

What do you mean it's not relevant if she's been drinking? Of course it is.

If a sober woman makes a rape allegation, chances are that she was of able mind to realise she was being raped if she failed to stop it.

Under the influence of alcohol things tend to happen that you later regret and/or don't remember. It alters your mind state. Of course sobriety (or lack thereof) is relevant.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If you need it factually laid out that getting dressed up like a curb-dweller and becoming dangerously intoxicated around men, is irresponsible, then I suggest joining us in the real world before commenting on the issue.
-AC
I'm sorry: I must have missed the part where the stats showed that women were dressed like "curb-dwellers" and became "Dangerously intoxicated". All I read was that alcohol had been a factor. I'm fairly certain that's just what it says, and you're reading all that other information into it. Women were drinking so they're crying rape. Women were drinking so they must have been "dangerously intoxicated" and dressed like whores.

oh bullshit AC.......so now its her fault she wasn't sober enough to prevent the rape? You amaze me with that train of thought. Ive got better things to do than argue with someone whose train has clearly jumped the track. See Ya! bye

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
oh bullshit.......so now its her fault she wasn't sober enough to prevent the rape? You amaze me with that train of thought. Ive got better things to do than argue with someone whose train has clearly jumped the track. See Ya! bye

that's not what anyone has said, ACs argument is completely reasonable, all barristers for the defence would use it.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
My point is, that its not relevant whether or not the woman had been drinking if a rape occurs. Operative word being IF.

It is relevant, in two ways.

In one sense, someone intoxicated to an extreme degree cannot actually give consent.

In another, which I think Whirly is getting at, being under the influence of alcohol, having sex, and then later claiming rape does nothing for the credibility of the accuser.

While this isn't ideal, it is a fact.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
that's not what anyone has said.

Yeah, she does that. Don't mind her. She just runs a mile when she's been countered.

Originally posted by Zarathustra
I'm sorry: I must have missed the part where the stats showed that women were dressed like "curb-dwellers" and became "Dangerously intoxicated". All I read was that alcohol had been a factor. I'm fairly certain that's just what it says, and you're reading all that other information into it. Women were drinking so they're crying rape. Women were drinking so they must have been "dangerously intoxicated" and dressed like whores.

Intoxication is intoxication. If you're intoxicated to the point where you are no longer able to defend or be responsible for yourself, regardless of if it's dangerously so or not, then that's irresponsible. Because it's the opposite of responsible (irresponsible).

I never said the stats showed any of that, the point I made (and that others have made) is that rape allegations made by females who were/are drunk, aren't necessarily concrete are they? No. Moreover, if a woman dresses provocatively and does get drunk around men to an irresponsible level, then whilst she absolutely does not DESERVE harm, she isn't exactly doing her best to prevent it, so responsibility and blame does rest on her shoulders also.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Intoxication is intoxication. If you're intoxicated to the point where you are no longer able to defend or be responsible for yourself, regardless of if it's dangerously so or not, then that's irresponsible. Because it's the opposite of responsible (irresponsible).

I never said the stats showed any of that, the point I made (and that others have made) is that rape allegations made by females who were/are drunk, aren't necessarily concrete are they? No. Moreover, if a woman dresses provocatively and does get drunk around men to an irresponsible level, then whilst she absolutely does not DESERVE harm, she isn't exactly doing her best to prevent it, so responsibility and blame does rest on her shoulders also.

-AC

AC all defense barristers would use your argument and probably win because sometimes it happens, you're right imo.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It is relevant, in two ways.

In one sense, someone intoxicated to an extreme degree cannot actually give consent.

In another, which I think Whirly is getting at, being under the influence of alcohol, having sex, and then later claiming rape does nothing for the credibility of the accuser.

While this isn't ideal, it is a fact.

exactly VVD

The critical point being missed is that nobody is saying women deserve to be raped or are at total fault.

That said, if you dress provocatively and then get irresponsibly intoxicated or influenced by foreign means, then you aren't exactly trying to prevent it. So nobody is blaming the woman for the man's actions, but for her own.

People keep either A) Missing that point or B) Missing it on purpose.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The critical point being missed is that nobody is saying women deserve to be raped or are at total fault.

That said, if you dress provocatively and then get irresponsibly intoxicated or influenced by foreign means, then you aren't exactly trying to prevent it. So nobody is blaming the woman for the man's actions, but for her own.

People keep either A) Missing that point or B) Missing it on purpose.

-AC

No - I agree with you totally on this, I think VVD does as well.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It is relevant, in two ways.

In one sense, someone intoxicated to an extreme degree cannot actually give consent.

In another, which I think Whirly is getting at, being under the influence of alcohol, having sex, and then later claiming rape does nothing for the credibility of the accuser.

While this isn't ideal, it is a fact.
VVD you directly quoted me when you posted this reply and yet you missed my last sentence which CLEARLY SAID

I am one of THE biggest supporters of the fact that there are a ton of women out there that cry rape under false pretenses, for attention or for revenge etc. And I believe these women should be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law allows.

And AC get over yourself already. You really labor under the impression that you are all that don't you? LMAO
There is a HUGE difference between CHOOSING not to argue with a person you think is IGNORANT and running away from an argument. You in my opinion fall into the first category therefore I CHOOSE not to argue with you BECAUSE I think you are simply ignorant as all get out.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
VVD you directly quoted me when you posted this reply and yet you missed my last sentence which CLEARLY SAID

I am one of THE biggest supporters of the fact that there are a ton of women out there that cry rape under false pretenses, for attention or for revenge etc. ANd these women should be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law allows.

And AC get over yourself already. You really labor under the impression that you are all that don't you? LMAO
There is a HUGE difference between CHOOSING not to argue with a person you think is IGNORANT and running away from an argument. You in my opinion fall into the first category therefore I CHOOSE not to argue with you BECAUSE I think you are simply ignorant as all get out.

So you result to insulting people because you couldn't beat them back? For shame.

Oh yes another clueless person heard from......read what I said OK. Then make an informed post. There is no race here, no one wins, its a discussion not a contest.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Intoxication is intoxication. If you're intoxicated to the point where you are no longer able to defend or be responsible for yourself, regardless of if it's dangerously so or not, then that's irresponsible. Because it's the opposite of responsible (irresponsible).

I never said the stats showed any of that, the point I made (and that others have made) is that rape allegations made by females who were/are drunk, aren't necessarily concrete are they? No. Moreover, if a woman dresses provocatively and does get drunk around men to an irresponsible level, then whilst she absolutely does not DESERVE harm, she isn't exactly doing her best to prevent it, so responsibility and blame does rest on her shoulders also.

-AC
Intoxication is intoxication? One beer or fifteen have vastly different effects on a human being. The big thing here is that your entire position is based on "IF". Whirly started this whole discussion with the FACT that one third of women who made rape allegations had been drinking. That doesn't mean that she was "no longer able to defend herself or be responsible for herself": you're injecting that possibility into the discussion. All we can know is that she's been drinking: maybe she's quite capable of making valid decisions and being responsible for herself. As you put it yourself: You never said that the stats showed any of that. That's what I find a bit shocking: this discussion begins with some very reasonable facts which cause a problem for law enforcement and it's suddenly blown up into something that has no concrete basis in the evidence. Now, the 13 percent fit into your category, no doubt, and I don't argue that alcohol should be avoided to ensure one's own safety (Hell, I don't think it's safe for males to drink too much either), but your comment blow the actual information out of proportion. Your arguments, as Whirly keeps pointing out, might win a court case, but that's only if your hypothetical situation fits the facts of that case... we have no numbers on how often that is true, so I believe discussion should be limited to facts, not conjecture.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
VVD you directly quoted me when you posted this reply and yet you missed my last sentence which CLEARLY SAID



I did see the 'if', and I was referring to instances where a rape takes place.

If a woman has been drinking and is too intoxicated to give consent, then the drinking is relevant because it has prevented her giving consent.

If she is indeed raped, and had been drinking, her credibility will be scrutinised in court. This is the other reason it is relevant (in actual cases of rape).

I understand that, and as I said, while it may be brought up in court and even argued, it does not in anyway in my opinion(which last time I checked, I was allowed to have, and it isnt right or wrong, just my opinion) lessen the severity of the crime or place blame on the victim.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I understand that, and as I said, while it may be brought up in court and even argued, it does not in anyway in my opinion(which last time I checked, I was allowed to have, and it isnt right or wrong, just my opinion) lessen the severity of the crime or place blame on the victim.

This is true, but I'm not disputing it.

Although let's not get back into the whole opinion/fact shenanigans of bygone threads...

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
And AC get over yourself already. You really labor under the impression that you are all that don't you? LMAO
There is a HUGE difference between CHOOSING not to argue with a person you think is IGNORANT and running away from an argument. You in my opinion fall into the first category therefore I CHOOSE not to argue with you BECAUSE I think you are simply ignorant as all get out.

You evidently care a lot more than I do, and I do believe you need to get over me. Sorry. Let's be relevant for a bit:

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I understand that, and as I said, while it may be brought up in court and even argued, it does not in anyway in my opinion(which last time I checked, I was allowed to have, and it isnt right or wrong, just my opinion) lessen the severity of the crime or place blame on the victim.

So if a girl makes a rape allegation and has been revealed to have been intoxicated as the rape took place, you don't believe that it subtracts credibility from her claim? Her putting herself in a position where rape is easier? Now don't get it twisted, I'm not saying the woman has no right to get drunk. As VVD said before, this isn't ideal or good, but it is fact. If you put yourself in a position where you are more of an easy rape target, then it diminishes the credibility of your allegation.

Originally posted by Zarathustra
Intoxication is intoxication? One beer or fifteen have vastly different effects on a human being. The big thing here is that your entire position is based on "IF". Whirly started this whole discussion with the FACT that one third of women who made rape allegations had been drinking. That doesn't mean that she was "no longer able to defend herself or be responsible for herself": you're injecting that possibility into the discussion.

Am I? Or are you doing that? It's the latter. I made the completely independent point that women intoxicated to levels where they cannot defend themselves, out amongst men, aren't exactly doing their best to keep their safety. You chose to connect that with the point Whirly made. I'm not insinuating that because they've been drinking they aren't all able to defend themselves. My point in connection with THAT notion is that a lot of people say things they don't mean or aren't sure of when intoxicated. Don't twist my words please.

Originally posted by Zarathustra
All we can know is that she's been drinking: maybe she's quite capable of making valid decisions and being responsible for herself. As you put it yourself: You never said that the stats showed any of that. That's what I find a bit shocking: this discussion begins with some very reasonable facts which cause a problem for law enforcement and it's suddenly blown up into something that has no concrete basis in the evidence. Now, the 13 percent fit into your category, no doubt, and I don't argue that alcohol should be avoided to ensure one's own safety (Hell, I don't think it's safe for males to drink too much either), but your comment blow the actual information out of proportion. Your arguments, as Whirly keeps pointing out, might win a court case, but that's only if your hypothetical situation fits the facts of that case... we have no numbers on how often that is true, so I believe discussion should be limited to facts, not conjecture.

Yeah, that's pretty and everything, but YOUR argument there is based on something I never actually said.

I never actually said that every woman drinking has lost control of herself. I made one independent point and ONE point connected to Whirly's. You crossed the wrong wires.

So let's recap...

My independent point is this: I made the completely independent point that women intoxicated to levels where they cannot defend themselves, out amongst men, aren't exactly doing their best to keep their safety.

Right.

My point in connection with the alcohol claim is this: A lot of people say things they don't mean or aren't sure of when intoxicated.

The idea of a messageboard is to read the messages. If you're unsure of what I mean, ask. Don't assume.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As VVD said before, this isn't ideal or good, but it is fact. If you put yourself in a position where you are more of an easy rape target, then it diminishes the credibility of your allegation.


i strongly disagree AC. first off (correct me VVD if im wrong) i think he was speaking objectively on how the courts typically handle such a case.

anyway, i think it depends more on circumstance. speaking objectively, many cases of date rape do lose credibility in court under certain circumstances. of coarse the most obvious "oops i was raped" scenario (hat tip to backfire) and also in cases where there was actual rape, but a woman who was intoxicated perhaps planned to sleep with a man but then wanted to back out, and rape ensues. in this case, she was just plain raped, but unfortunately the circumstances are way too cloudy to make the charge stick.

thats why women need to just be careful. not a matter of right and wrong, but just what is.

look, the law is pretty clear. If one person is drunk and the other isn't, then the sober one is accountable and it can potentially be considered rape. if both are drunk, then no one can be held acountable.

Originally posted by PVS
(correct me VVD if im wrong) i think he was speaking objectively on how the courts typically handle such a case.



That's right.

True, true. It highly unfortunate that one of the most serever crimes is also one of the most tricky to deal with, especially when it comes to areas like date rape, or where a girl might have been consenting to a point, but then changed her mind and said no, but things still went ahead.

However, I would have thought, in context, that the intoxication level of the victim in question would possible have judges prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. After all, if a girl is in an advanced state of intoxication then logically her abilities to both make decisions and resist unwanted attentions are vastly reduced - especially depending on the accused's level of intoxication, in seems quite easy to believe that in such a case she may have been taken advantage of (a faulty generalisation yes, cases such as these should be dealt with case by case.)

And in a way I agree with the "provocation" situation. Now, I do think the way the world is that is can be dangerous to dress some ways, to drink excessively in certain environments, unfortunate, but that's the way it is. Safety first and all that, though I don't think it's in any way a defense for a rapist, and the girl (or guy, it happens), the victim, bare little, or no fault, if they truly are victims. They aren't to blame for the stupid, antisocial behavior of members of society who do such things, not in the least, blame rests solely with the attacker. BUT the fact is that such vile characters do exist, so it would be best, for safety sake, to minimise the likelihood of such attacks.

Originally posted by PVS
i strongly disagree AC. first off (correct me VVD if im wrong) i think he was speaking objectively on how the courts typically handle such a case.

anyway, i think it depends more on circumstance. speaking objectively, many cases of date rape do lose credibility in court under certain circumstances. of coarse the most obvious "oops i was raped" scenario (hat tip to backfire) and also in cases where there was actual rape, but a woman who was intoxicated perhaps planned to sleep with a man but then wanted to back out, and rape ensues. in this case, she was just plain raped, but unfortunately the circumstances are way too cloudy to make the charge stick.

thats why women need to just be careful. not a matter of right and wrong, but just what is.

Well despite him making a point about something else, what I said was correct: "If you put yourself in a position where you are more of an easy rape target, then it diminishes the credibility of your allegation."

Exactly though, women need to be careful. If you're not careful...and you don't take steps to ensure your safety...then as I've been saying, some of the blame does rest on you.

-AC

has anyone seen the dave chappelle sketch about the sex contract??

How about that???

You and your 1 night stand have to sign a form stating that the sex is concented....

Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
has anyone seen the dave chappelle sketch about the sex contract??

How about that???

You and your 1 night stand have to sign a form stating that the sex is concented....

Wasn't the sex contract the sketch wheree the guy could't bring it? And in the end he throws the condom in the garbage yelling "Kobe" ....was a long time ago...might be wrong.

yer... That was the extention to the sketch where after he gets her to sign that she won't tell anyone he was crap... "cause I'll sue your ass"

Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
yer... That was the extention to the sketch where after he gets her to sign that she won't tell anyone he was crap... "cause I'll sue your ass"

Ah yes..right. Was a funny sketch indeed.

anyways!!!

Have sex contracts on the back of condom cases!!!

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
No one is doing so. Read what is posted.



Who insinuated this?



Please don't make up a paragraph of BS that I didn't say, then tack on the thing that I did say, as if I am condoning the argument you yourself set up.



I'm sure we all agree with this. I'm not sure of the relevance to the rest of the post, but I can safely say this isn't a novel idea you just formulated.

It looks like you have a specific argument to make. Instead of pretending people are saying something so you can oppose them, why don't you just state your point. Hold your horses with breaking my message in parts and calling it BS. I dissagreed with being able to blame a girl in any degree, even if she acts stupid and not cautiously.

After that, I was attacking the general opinion of girls being stupid again. Don't think that I'm attacking you. Your message was much too vague to point out your opinion in that certain aspect.

There was nothing vague about what he said, you're just defending something that cannot be defended by saying that someone who is stupid and irresponsible still isn't to blame for it to any degree.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There was nothing vague about what he said, you're just defending something that cannot be defended by saying that someone who is stupid and irresponsible still isn't to blame for it to any degree.

-AC

Agreed.

Rape is always difficult to prosecutedue to the fact most Rape victims know the perpetrator, however if the person behaves irresponsibly it makes it still more difficult for numerous obvious reasons we have gone over already, not least "some" women make excuses for their own behaviour with the accusation of "rape".

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There was nothing vague about what he said, you're just defending something that cannot be defended by saying that someone who is stupid and irresponsible still isn't to blame for it to any degree.

-AC Comparing girls being taken advantage of whilst drunk shouldn't be compared to dangerous acts like falling asleep on railways anyway, so the message was vague to what he was trying to say.

Originally posted by overlord
Hold your horses with breaking my message in parts and calling it BS. I dissagreed with being able to blame a girl in any degree, even if she acts stupid and not cautiously.

My apologies if you were not addressing my post. You used the wording from my post, so you can understand the reasoning.

I am not sure anyone, bar perhaps Kidrock, is presenting the argument against which you rail.

It's not a matter of blame; it is a matter of responsibility. If someone acts in such a way as to increase the chances of a negative consequence, then to that degree they have acted irresponsibly. It does not extenuate the actions of the attacker, but it does lack common sense.

You can't really assert the 'I'll do and wear what I like' argument without acknowledging that it will possibly attract adverse attention.

Okay, I'll break it down again what I'm trying to point out:

Every degree of putting blame on a girl for acting irresponsibly by consuming alcohol should be discouraged as you can't expect them to be this cautious at all times.
We all go out, all go a bit too far with liquor some times but nobody can expect that someone will try to take advantage of you in this kind of way.

Originally posted by overlord
Okay, I'll break it down again what I'm trying to point out:

Every degree of putting blame on a girl for acting irresponsibly by consuming alcohol should be discouraged as you can't expect them to be this cautious at all times.
We all go out, all go a bit too far with liquor some times but nobody can expect that someone will try to take advantage of you in this kind of way.

That's fine. It's not helpful though.

If you remove responsibility, you remove care.

If someone is careless, they can get into trouble.

You should expect to be taken advantage of in a potentially risky situation, otherwise you are being naive, and therein lies the additional risk.

Originally posted by overlord
Okay, I'll break it down again what I'm trying to point out:

Every degree of putting blame on a girl for acting irresponsibly by consuming alcohol should be discouraged as you can't expect them to be this cautious at all times.
We all go out, all go a bit too far with liquor some times but nobody can expect that someone will try to take advantage of you in this kind of way.

Well it's not like it'S thir fault that they got raped...they could have behaved in a different manner though and maybe prevent it by that. I mean it would be wonderful if the world was a place like that where girls could wander the streets at night wearing the shortest dresses getting completely wasted without a chance of them getting raped but it isn't .....so everyone has to rtake care of themself too....(reminds me of a 7th heaven episode)

Isn't dressing, umm, provocatively, going to bar with full of horny men and getting drunk kinda like bathing in blood and going to a shark tank?

Well, people start going out and most probably are naive and expect everything to be oh so fun.
Some are either new to it or go too far but I think it's important that we all stop putting too much blame on their shoulders and come up with "I told you so" and "Well, you shouldn't have dressed like a **** then"

Because of commonly stated opinions like that, the girls will just be ashamed and often be even more scared to report while these guys know fully well that she doesn't put out signals wich tell them to go **** her.

Well, just contributing to the thread..
I hope people won't get mad that I stated my opinion to this aspect.

Originally posted by overlord
Well, people start going out and most probably are naive and expect everything to be oh so fun.
Some are either new to it or go too far but I think it's important that we all stop putting too much blame on their shoulders and come up with "I told you so" and "Well, you shouldn't have dressed like a **** then"

Because of commonly stated opinions like that, the girls will just be ashamed and often be even more scared to report while these guys know fully well that she doesn't put out signals wich tell them to go **** her.

Well, just contributing to the thread..
I hope people won't get mad that I stated my opinion to this aspect.

I don't think anyone is expecting them to be raped, and then to say 'I told you so': the point is more that if it weren't such a taboo to say 'Actually, it's not that smart to act irresponsibly in risky situations', then a lot of rapes and attacks could be avoided.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Isn't dressing, umm, provocatively, going to bar with full of horny men and getting drunk kinda like bathing in blood and going to a shark tank?

That is an overstatement...you make it sound as if every man is a potential trapist given the right circumstances.

Originally posted by overlord
Well, people start going out and most probably are naive and expect everything to be oh so fun.
Some are either new to it or go too far but I think it's important that we all stop putting too much blame on their shoulders and come up with "I told you so" and "Well, you shouldn't have dressed like a **** then"

Because of commonly stated opinions like that, the girls will just be ashamed and often be even more scared to report while these guys know fully well that she doesn't put out signals wich tell them to go **** her.

Well, just contributing to the thread..
I hope people won't get mad that I stated my opinion to this aspect.
But the thing is not that we want to blame them after it happened but advice them before it happens

That's also a part of the problem! All those damn taboo's.. If there would just be more attention to these dangers before kids turn sixteen and are allowed to drink then it would also help considerably.

But no.. Schools are afraid to touch common subjects like sex. Instead of teaching neutrally and educating appropriately, they let religion have a much too great influence.

Yeah so all that aside, are you ready to join us in the real world and admit that acting stupid, careless and irresponsible means you are partially to blame?

Because it's due to attitudes such as yours that rapes are too frequent.

-AC

Originally posted by overlord
That's also a part of the problem! All those damn taboo's.. If there would just be more attention to these dangers before kids turn sixteen and are allowed to drink then it would also help considerably.

But no.. Schools are afraid to touch common subjects like sex. Instead of teaching neutrally and educating appropriately, they let religion have a much too great influence.

In England Religion has little or no influence and schools try, it's a culture of the ignorant here

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah so all that aside, are you ready to join us in the real world and admit that acting stupid, careless and irresponsible means you are partially to blame?

Because it's due to attitudes such as yours that rapes are too frequent.

-AC Wow, you must one frustrated teenager or something that you just won't let me contribute to a thread.

And if you really feel so much hatred towards girls who are naive enough to dress like the mass and act like the crowd then I feel very sorry for you..

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
In England Religion has little or no influence and schools try, it's a culture of the ignorant here Yeah, we have it better here in Holland in education but people unfortunately still trust each a bit too much.

Originally posted by overlord
Wow, you must one frustrated teenager or something that you just won't let me contribute to a thread.

And if you really feel so much hatred towards girls who are naive enough to dress like the mass and act like the crowd then I feel very sorry for you..

A) I'm not a teenager.

B) You just nailed your own coffin shut with the "naive" comment. Why? Because you admit that it's an act of stupidity yet refuse to acknowledge that people like that are putting themselves in harm's way.

-AC

And if you really feel so much hatred towards girls who are naive enough to dress like the mass and act like the crowd then I feel very sorry for you.. sad


I kinda like this comment because with ALL the media and ALL the attention drawn to sex appeal..........which fluctuates constantly and is risque at the moment you gotta be kidding me...........16 year old girls know what they are doing when they dress risque is you will or are those tummy shirts with low cut fronts used to just make sure they stay cool outside

I saw a girl while I was on vacation this year, she looked about 13 and she was wearing a shirt that said "Playboy Bunny". Her parents were with her.

I find that funny that she's wearing the flag of a pornographic magazine.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) I'm not a teenager.

B) You just nailed your own coffin shut with the "naive" comment. Why? Because you admit that it's an act of stupidity yet refuse to acknowledge that people like that are putting themselves in harm's way.

-AC Your frustrated insults and attempts to break down every little input I have in this thread certainly indicates that you are a child.

So you have my attention now, what is your exact point?

Wait, is that your gimmick? Call people children, ignore their points whilst continuing to make your own (proven wrong many times over by many people) and then ask them what their point is?

My point, for the last time, is this:

If you act irresponsible and do something in the knowledge that it might have negative response, you are responsible in some way for inviting said response. To deny this is stupid and, to use your word, naive.

Your point is that blaming the female to any degree, in any circumstance, is shocking. Right? What exactly would your parental advice be then? "Go out dressed like that, get drunk, it's your right. If you get raped, isn't your fault at all.", hmm?

-AC

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
-AC

-AC

never saw a double signature before

-PVS

-PVS
































-PVS

AC..seems to be slightly bothered...not an everyday mistake you see from him.

I think AC is right though.

well, i see his point...in a sense

if i go to the ghetto and wander around aimlessly in an 800$ suit with a fat wad of cash in my pocket, then get mugged and shot...am i not partially responsible?

but that logic is reasonable only when thinking in black and white.

but by your logic AC, if i walk around ANYWHERE in an 800$ suit and a fat wad of cash, if i get shot its partially my fault. whether it be brooklyn or the hamptons.

your basically saying a woman is irresponsible for drinking outside her home and mingling with others.

Originally posted by PVS
well, i see his point...in a sense

if i go to the ghetto and wander around aimlessly in an 800$ suit with a fat wad of cash in my pocket, then get mugged and shot...am i not partially responsible?

but that logic is reasonable only when thinking in black and white.

but by your logic AC, if i walk around ANYWHERE in an 800$ suit and a fat wad of cash, if i get shot its partially my fault. whether it be brooklyn or the hamptons.

your basically saying a woman is irresponsible for drinking outside her home and mingling with others.

I think it's more he's saying if they do this they must recognise the added risk, and the reduced likelyhood of a conviction if they are raped. A good Barrister would make a drunk woman look pretty slutty in the UK. Nasty but true and what he would be being paid for.

That's the point I am making. I can't speak for anyone else though, obviously.

Originally posted by PVS
well, i see his point...in a sense

if i go to the ghetto and wander around aimlessly in an 800$ suit with a fat wad of cash in my pocket, then get mugged and shot...am i not partially responsible?

but that logic is reasonable only when thinking in black and white.

but by your logic AC, if i walk around ANYWHERE in an 800$ suit and a fat wad of cash, if i get shot its partially my fault. whether it be brooklyn or the hamptons.

your basically saying a woman is irresponsible for drinking outside her home and mingling with others.

It would depend on how ostentious it is (the suit and money).

If though, to return to a practical context, I leave my car unlocked, and it is stolen/items are stolen from it, I wouldn't think it is my personal fault that someone committed a crime, but I would think that I could have acted in a different way to reduce the likelihood of that consequence.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wait, is that your gimmick? Call people children, ignore their points whilst continuing to make your own (proven wrong many times over by many people) and then ask them what their point is?

My point, for the last time, is this:

If you act irresponsible and do something in the knowledge that it might have negative response, you are responsible in some way for inviting said response. To deny this is stupid and, to use your word, naive.

Your point is that blaming the female to any degree, in any circumstance, is shocking. Right? What exactly would your parental advice be then? "Go out dressed like that, get drunk, it's your right. If you get raped, isn't your fault at all.", hmm?

-AC

-AC Your adrenaline must be pumping or something. Don't worry though, I am not the evil villain.

I'll go along with your 'battle' if you want to; you respond too heavily to my opinion, as if I'm threatening your whole view of the world or something.
Did it ever occur to you that people still have learning to do and that most teens are indeed 'naive'? I say that we shouldn't blame them for going along with the crowd because they don't fully grasp how men respond to their so called 'provocative clothing' and they can't know about every slight danger in the world.

You expect way too much of these teenagers but why are you trying to go in to some battle with me? I said that people shouldn't blame the girls in the case of getting penetrated by some oversexed idiot and you act like I'm incredibly stupid.
If you desperately want me to view it as you do, then relax and try to be more convincing.

Are you saying that women who are drunk leave their vagina unlocked? And if said vagina is "stolen" they have some responsibility in the matter?

Seriously though, I agree with AC and VVD. A woman should recognize their inherent vulnerability when they're drunk and know their capabilities and reasoning power. If they're actually raped because they drank to much and passed out, then yes, they should assume some responability for being so stupid.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I saw a girl while I was on vacation this year, she looked about 13 and she was wearing a shirt that said "Playboy Bunny". Her parents were with her.
-AC

uh huh



Even though you're right for humour I had to do this

i understand that.

but i fail to see how once victimised, a woman is automatically partially blamable. it can be acknowledged that she took a risk by simply having a drink outside her home, just as i take a risk of dying every time i get behind the wheel. in other words: shit happens. but how is it that the worst possible outcome should be viewed as the fault of the victim, even partially. that would be like passing a car wreck, seeing a dead body, and saying "oh well, he shouldn't have driven his car. he knew the risk after all"

i understand the objective point on how the courts view such a situation of rape, especially with the unfortunate lack of evidence in most cases. but i'm catching the whiff of an opinion that a woman 'has it coming' just for getting drunk.

Originally posted by BackFire
Are you saying that women who are drunk leave their vagina unlocked? And if said vagina is "stolen" they have some responsibility in the matter?


Very interesting way to put it...

Originally posted by BackFire
Are you saying that women who are drunk leave their vagina unlocked? And if said vagina is "stolen" they have some responsibility in the matter?

Seriously though, I agree with AC and VVD. A woman should recognize their inherent vulnerability when they're drunk and know their capabilities and reasoning power. If they're actually raped because they drank to much and passed out, then yes, they should assume some responability for being so stupid.

it's true they should.

Well i don't think they should be punished or anything it's just that the matter of the fact is that they have acted irresponsible....it's not a crime but I myself would blame me for being stupid (lookily the only time I went out with that black leather dress I wasn't raped)

C'mon.. You are all empathising way too much on that responsible thing, they get abused and busted up from the inside just for some horny ass-hole to spill his seed.
Just because they get too cut up in the herd behavior of humans, doesn't mean that we should act like they should've known something like that could have happened! Most teenage girls wich this happens to are still way below the age of responsibility and we should releave their fears of reporting such abuse instead of being so harsh about this difficult issue.

Originally posted by PVS
i understand that.

but i fail to see how once victimised, a woman is automatically partially blamable. it can be acknowledged that she took a risk by simply having a drink outside her home, just as i take a risk of dying every time i get behind the wheel. in other words: shit happens. but how is it that the worst possible outcome should be viewed as the fault of the victim, even partially. that would be like passing a car wreck, seeing a dead body, and saying "oh well, he shouldn't have driven his car. he knew the risk after all"

i understand the objective point on how the courts view such a situation of rape, especially with the unfortunate lack of evidence in most cases. but i'm catching the whiff of an opinion that a woman 'has it coming' just for getting drunk.


I don't think she should be blamed, merely that if she consumes too much alcohal to make good decisions then she should assume SOME responsability. The guy is still to blame, it's still his fault and he should be penalized completely. But she does share some responability for making things easier for him.

Originally posted by PVS
i understand that.

but i fail to see how once victimised, a woman is automatically partially blamable. it can be acknowledged that she took a risk by simply having a drink outside her home, just as i take a risk of dying every time i get behind the wheel. in other words: shit happens. but how is it that the worst possible outcome should be viewed as the fault of the victim, even partially. that would be like passing a car wreck, seeing a dead body, and saying "oh well, he shouldn't have driven his car. he knew the risk after all"


I don't know if this is in response to me, but just to clarify, I personally am not arguing to apportion 'blame'; more to suggest that in risky situations, logically, there is risk. No more, no less. Not to say drinking near a man is risky, or wearing a skirt is risky.

For example, there are a lot of rapes over here as a result of women getting unlicensed cabs home alone.

Obviously the correct response is 'avoid unlicensed cabs- entirely if possible- and certainly while alone.'

To me, it doesn't come down to blame, it comes down to avoidance strategies. If these are ignored, then in my eyes, that's a stupid thing. If a woman does get raped taking an unlicensed cab home, you wouldn't feel the desire to say 'you're partially to blame', but I think only the most disingenuous person could avoid the thought, 'what the Hell where you thinking?'

Originally posted by overlord
C'mon.. You are all empathising way too much on that responsible thing, they get abused and busted up from the inside just for some horny ass-hole to spill his seed.
Just because they get too cut up in the herd behavior of humans, doesn't mean that we should act like they should've known something like that could have happened! Most teenage girls wich this happens to are still way below the age of responsibility and we should releave their fears of reporting such abuse instead of being so harsh about this difficult issue.

In this day and age, ALL women should realize the dangers of the world, and the risks they may be taking by dressing, as AC put it earlier, as gutter dwellers. Some men take it as an invitation, the men shouldn't and they're completely to blame for that, but a woman should at least understand the dangers and risks of dressing in an overly sexual manner.

Maybe responsible adults should be responsible but it's still the kids that are naive enough to do exactly what the perfect media picture is and follow the crowd.
Fact is that even young guys they might have had an interest in abuse them when they get them drunk. You can't expect too much of the victims.

The men know fully well that she doesn't put out signals to **** her.
I know there are always two sides to a story but rape happens more often than the media tells us because it doesn't always get reported out of fear what people might say and women who actually put the blame by themselves.
I therefor believe that defending the offender should be discouraged.

But no one is defending the offender. Merely pointing out that a woman often times has some responability in the matter, and that she should know the risks of the world she lives in.

Overlord, you have about 5 people continually pointing the obvious out to you and each time you storm into the thread like Haku and start headbutting the wall.

As Backfire said, NOBODY is defending the offender and as VVD said, he isn't trying to hand out blame. I'm not saying it's her fault that some scum decided to rape her, no woman DESERVES rape, but as VVD also said...it's about avoidance and responsibility.

This just doesn't seem to be registering with you. You have actually suggested that girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility. Now, to quote Stan Marsh from South Park:

"I know about freedom of speech, equality and all that other stuff, but seriously dude, f*ck you."

(That last part was just part of the quote, I don't actually intend to use profanity against you, before you whine).

Moreover, you continually cite the "kids" naive perception as reason for unfortunate circumstance, while STILL refusing to acknowledge that being naive what most of us are also getting at. You making things up to argue against them.

How can you logically say that going out and basically dressing/acting however you want means that whatever happens as a result (a result of HER actions) is not her fault?

Go on.

-AC

Originally posted by BackFire
But no one is defending the offender. Merely pointing out that a woman often times has some responability in the matter, and that she should know the risks of the world she lives in. Yeah, well you get what I mean. Although offenders get defended too..
General opinion of course doesn't defend them but does put a pointing finger on the victims that they could've expected it with their way of clothing themselves. The guys aren't confused with mixed signals, they just assume what suits them best and 'rape'.

So wait, this keeps getting better...or worse.

You don't believe that a woman dressing inappropriately and getting intoxicated around men should expect the worst?

If you actually know that it's going to get response that is likely of a sexual interest and nature, yet still put yourself in a position where you can be taken advantage of, you still say this person is nowhere at fault if something goes wrong?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Overlord, you have about 5 people continually pointing the obvious out to you and each time you storm into the thread like Haku and start headbutting the wall.

As Backfire said, NOBODY is defending the offender and as VVD said, he isn't trying to hand out blame. I'm not saying it's her fault that some scum decided to rape her, no woman DESERVES rape, but as VVD also said...it's about avoidance and responsibility.

This just doesn't seem to be registering with you. You have actually suggested that girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility. Now, to quote Stan Marsh from South Park:

"I know about freedom of speech, equality and all that other stuff, but seriously dude, f*ck you."

(That last part was just part of the quote, I don't actually intend to use profanity against you, before you whine).

How can you logically say that going out and basically dressing/acting however you want means that whatever happens as a result (a result of HER actions) is not her fault?

Go on.

-AC Why are you constantly putting AC after every post?

And no, I don't whine, I respond calmly and appropriately and I basically just contributed to the thread before you tried to make a discussion out of everything.Calm down, just because I don't agree with just pointing the responsibility card at every victim doesn't mean I don't get where you're coming from.

I keep stating my point but you conveniantly skip it. Should I really type the same text all night because of you being frustrated?

But don't go putting words in my mouth with your "girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility" when I say that we shouldn't count teens as responsible adults or that we the other argument wich you keep ignoring. Fact is that you just can't expect every one to be fully knowledgeable, responsible and cautious while they go do what everybody does.Don't take every little comment in this thread so incredibly serious. Do I really need to go watch every little thing I say because the hot breath of the legendary AC is in my neck with my every move.
Just let me use a forum, for crying out loud..

As for the result of her action is here fault.. Those extreme comparisons like leaving your car open don't apply in this case. How is a girl who gets caught up in the whole dumb rave and party scene to hold responsible for someone who decides to rape her? Guys don't have the trouble that that kind stuff can happen when they drink too much and it's already a taboo.
Teens just don't know everything and don't always realise all dangers in the world. You can't even hold teens responsible anyway since they aren't grown up yet anyway. If even their parents don't fully realise what kids do and even school doesn't inform enough, how can we just point the finger like that and give them a degree of blame too?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So wait, this keeps getting better...or worse.

You don't believe that a woman dressing inappropriately and getting intoxicated around men should expect the worst?

If you actually know that it's going to get response that is likely of a sexual interest and nature, yet still put yourself in a position where you can be taken advantage of, you still say this person is nowhere at fault if something goes wrong?

-AC What is inappropriately anyway? And who am I talking to anyway? Are you an extreme christian that you dissaprove girls dressing like the stereotype?

And yes, of course they can get intoxicated around men. Why not?
It's not like there is a big percentage of guys who will take advantage of them when they go too far in going along with the crowd. Should I fear for women when I get too drunk?

If you actually know that it's going to get response that is likely of a sexual interest and nature, yet still put yourself in a position where you can be taken advantage of, you still say this person is nowhere at fault if something goes wrong?

The thing is that girls are just forced by the generalissimo to dress oh so provocatively and get involved in oh so dangerous positions.
Consuming alcohol and dressing like everyone else is just still considered harmless and normal and if they don't join in, then you know what usually happens..

I don't get why you take it to an extreme in this conversation.
I actually don't get why I draw out such an extreme reaction from you.

Originally posted by overlord
And no, I don't whine, I respond calmly and appropriately and I basically just contributed to the thread before you tried to make a discussion out of everything.Calm down, just because I don't agree with just pointing the responsibility card at every victim doesn't mean I don't get where you're coming from.

I'm perfectly calm, that old trick is well...old. Secondly, I'm not saying you don't get it because you disagree, just that you don't get it. Why? Because after multiple pages and multiple detailed posts you continually produce overwhelming evidence that suggests you don't get what we are proposing. It has nothing to do with agreeing or not.

Originally posted by overlord
I keep stating my point but you conveniantly skip it. Should I really type the same text all night because of you being frustrated?

I know what your point is. Reversing my words against me doesn't work unless you're actually countering.

Originally posted by overlord
But don't go putting words in my mouth with your "girls, in rape situations, are absolutely 100% free of any responsibility" when I say that we shouldn't count teens as responsible adults or that we the other argument wich you keep ignoring.

Well anyone under 18 isn't an adult, but the legal age of consent here in England is 16. It's under 18 in a lot of countries. So why shouldn't we give responsibility to those who the government clearly deem responsible? Especially to the degree of setting a legal age of consent that is considerably below the age of legality.

Originally posted by overlord
Fact is that you just can't expect every one to be fully knowledgeable, responsible and cautious while they go do what everybody does. Don't take every little comment in this thread so incredibly serious. Do I really need to go watch every little thing I say because the hot breath of the legendary AC is in my neck with my every move.
Just let me use a forum, for crying out loud..

Nobody is saying be aware of what everybody does. We're saying that you should be responsible.

You can't say that these people are allowed to go out and ACT like adults without also pairing it with the responsibility and consequence of an adult.

Originally posted by overlord
As for the result of her action is here fault.. Those extreme comparisons like leaving your car open don't apply in this case.

I agree, but who is mentioning cars?

Originally posted by overlord
How is a girl who gets caught up in the whole dumb rave and party scene to hold responsible for someone who decides to rape her? Guys don't have the trouble that that kind stuff can happen when they drink too much and it's already a taboo.

You just answered your own question. If she's dumb enough and naive enough to go out and act/dress inappropriately in that situation, she's not ensuring her safety. YOU are trying to pin the old "They're young, they don't know" argument down. Which is a lame argument any time it's used. Of course they know.

Originally posted by overlord
Teens just don't know everything and don't always realise all dangers in the world. You can't even hold teens responsible anyway since they aren't grown up yet anyway. If even their parents don't fully realise what kids do and even school doesn't inform enough, how can we just point the finger like that and give them a degree of blame too?

Actually feel like I'm conversating with a brick wall.

This is my point: If you act irresponsible and do something in the knowledge that it might have negative response, you are responsible in some way for inviting said response.

Please read that before you reply.

Originally posted by overlord
What is inappropriately anyway? And who am I talking to anyway? Are you an extreme christian that you dissaprove girls dressing like the stereotype?

And yes, of course they can get intoxicated around men. Why not?
It's not like there is a big percentage of guys who will take advantage of them when they go too far in going along with the crowd. Should I fear for women when I get too drunk?

No, I don't disapprove of that. You know what I DON'T want? Me or anyone else going out innocently, sleeping with a girl while we're both intoxicated and her then claiming rape when nothing of the sort happened. That's what I don't want to happen. Do you see where I'm going? No, I suspect not.

That last part is so extremely illogical it's frightening. You are now making the assumption that it's ok for women to dress provocatively and get intoxicated around men because you don't believe many men want to rape? I fear for whoever is your responsibility. Seriously.

Originally posted by overlord
The thing is that girls are just forced by the generalissimo to dress oh so provocatively and get involved in oh so dangerous positions.
Consuming alcohol and dressing like everyone else is just still considered harmless and normal and if they don't join in, then you know what usually happens..

I don't get why you take it to an extreme in this conversation.
I actually don't get why I draw out such an extreme reaction from you

You're getting no extreme reaction, you're just getting called out and you don't like it. Well that's tough.

So you're saying that it's NOW ok for a girl to dress that way and put herself in danger and STILL be free of blame, just because the alternative is looking bad for her friends?

Do you actually partake in society?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm perfectly calm, that old trick is well...old.

good, i hope you have thus parted ways with that "take a chill pill" strategy

anyway, as i said, i agree that womwn should practice a strategy of avoidance, as is the case with any situation where there is a chance of being victimised. however, we must not adopt an attitude of "she wasnt responsible, so the hell with her". not that anyone uttered those words, but thats the vibe i get. everyone here has at one point inadvertantly put themselves in danger. please dont bullshit and say "not me". its simple human nature to deny danger given the right/wrong circumstance. easiest in one's youth.

Originally posted by PVS
good, i hope you have thus parted ways with that "take a chill pill" strategy


never!!

Originally posted by PVS
anyway, as i said, i agree that womwn should practice a strategy of avoidance, as is the case with any situation where there is a chance of being victimised. however, we must not adopt an attitude of "she wasnt responsible, so the hell with her". not that anyone uttered those words, but thats the vibe i get. everyone here has at one point inadvertantly put themselves in danger. please dont bullshit and say "not me". its simple human nature to deny danger given the right/wrong circumstance. easiest in one's youth.

Agreed

Originally posted by PVS
good, i hope you have thus parted ways with that "take a chill pill" strategy

anyway, as i said, i agree that womwn should practice a strategy of avoidance, as is the case with any situation where there is a chance of being victimised. however, we must not adopt an attitude of "she wasnt responsible, so the hell with her". not that anyone uttered those words, but thats the vibe i get. everyone here has at one point inadvertantly put themselves in danger. please dont bullshit and say "not me". its simple human nature to deny danger given the right/wrong circumstance. easiest in one's youth.

Yeah, it got old after I did it. That's the trick you see .

As you said, nobody is saying "the hell with her". Just that she didn't necessarily take steps to prevent it and therefore carries some of the blame.

-AC

Trick? Are you sure you're not paranoid? Why do get so upset by my opinion anyway and try to start a discussion regarding it? What the hell are you talking about? Do you insist in this childish bickering?Well, in case you didn't know it.. Teens don't have a fully developt brain yet. They basically can't reason responsibly yet.
And you putting all trust in the government instead of basic logic is something that you should not do.It's not suddenly my fault that they are allowed to, cut me some slack, psychopath.It's the basic idea that counts, not my example.They don't realise the full danger but what are you talking about with "the old this and that argument"? I can't even explain my points without getting extreme reactions like that.
And btw: You are putting too much stress on this 'provocatively dressing' and going out drinking. It's not like it's playing with electricity, it's normal and accepted.
You can't expect everybody to think like you.Try grasping how I feel. You are forcing your opinion on me from the day I came here. Do you treat every new guy like that or do you feel threatened by me or something?
I should count how many times you stress on response and responsible. You compare this to playing with fire with carrying it to such an extreme.
Instead of making a whole page full of garbage like you are now doing, let's adress subjects in this case in a normal fashion.I know some of you fear stuff like that but that is no reason to stress on teen girls' responsibilities like that. You are honestly expecting them all to have your own intelligence.You apperantly can't judge logic anymore with the importance of debating for you.
It's not an assumption that it's ok for women to go out and party like men, it's an opinion. Is that so hard to grasp or is this pointless bickering fullfilling?You actually come across as obsessed by me.. But don't make assumptions on me because I am actually quite emotionless, I merely reply to your anger.Dress like what? It's the freaking norm. Why do you expect everybody to have an incredible IQ?
Yes, I can judge neutrally and keep my calm unlike others. You on the otherhand have elevated my prime message to such a level that I suspect some kind of psychosis on your part. Thanks for including that.. I could have never known it was you..



But anyway.. This kind of retarded way of discussing makes us forget about what we were essentially discussing. I guess there is no way of going back now, is there?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, it got old after I did it. That's the trick you see .

As you said, nobody is saying "the hell with her". Just that she didn't necessarily take steps to prevent it and therefore carries some of the blame.

-AC Yeah, and I said that we should discourage putting blame on a victim because the crime is reported way too less.

But if battling my opinion is so important to you, then I'll play along for you.

Originally posted by overlord
Trick? Are you sure you're not paranoid? Why do get so upset by my opinion anyway and try to start a discussion regarding it? What the hell are you talking about? Do you insist in this childish bickering?Well, in case you didn't know it.. Teens don't have a fully developt brain yet. They basically can't reason responsibly yet.

If continually telling yourself that I am upset, helps you make amends with yourself over having the complete wrong view on this, then by all means.

"Teens don't have a fully developed brain yet".

Hahaha, funniest comment of all time. It's developed ENOUGH to know what you do and what you just don't do. Especially at 16 and over.

Originally posted by overlord
And you putting all trust in the government instead of basic logic is something that you should not do.It's not suddenly my fault that they are allowed to, cut me some slack, psychopath.It's the basic idea that counts, not my example.They don't realise the full danger but what are you talking about with "the old this and that argument"? I can't even explain my points without getting extreme reactions like that.
And btw: You are putting too much stress on this 'provocatively dressing' and going out drinking. It's not like it's playing with electricity, it's normal and accepted.

Whoa slow down there, blank round. Where did you get "all trust" from? I'm questioning YOUR logic. If the legal age of consent is 16 in many countries (an age generally and legally considered to be an age of independent responsibility unless you live in the 50's or unless you're you) then why on Earth do you adopt the blinkered idea that teens brains are not yet developed enough to realise what IS and what ISN'T tempting fate?

You are making the old excuse that young people aren't aware of their actions, which is BS.

YES, it is normal and accepted. Which MIGHT be why rape occurs as often as it does. Ever think of this? Ever think, at all?

Originally posted by overlord
You can't expect everybody to think like you.Try grasping how I feel. You are forcing your opinion on me from the day I came here. Do you treat every new guy like that or do you feel threatened by me or something?

A) I don't, why is this relevant?

B) I'm not. I'm just telling you why yours is illogical, dangerous and non-sensical. If you want to continue holding that opinion, go for it.

C) Threatened? That's the third...maybe fourth funniest thing you've said.

Originally posted by overlord
I should count how many times you stress on response and responsible. You compare this to playing with fire with carrying it to such an extreme.

Rape isn't extreme? Maybe this is why your attitude to it is so frighteningly lenient.

Originally posted by overlord
Instead of making a whole page full of garbage like you are now doing, let's adress subjects in this case in a normal fashion.I know some of you fear stuff like that but that is no reason to stress on teen girls' responsibilities like that. You are honestly expecting them all to have your own intelligence.You apperantly can't judge logic anymore with the importance of debating for you.

No, I'm expecting them to know that going out dressed provocatively and getting drunk makes them easy prey for rapists. If they don't know that, it's dangerous. If they do and still do it, then they are partially to blame for any negative consequence. Most of them do know, because 16 years olds and up, contrary to your belief, do have brains that are capable of rational thought.

Originally posted by overlord
It's not an assumption that it's ok for women to go out and party like men, it's an opinion. Is that so hard to grasp or is this pointless bickering fullfilling?You actually come across as obsessed by me.. But don't make assumptions on me because I am actually quite emotionless, I merely reply to your anger.Dress like what? It's the freaking norm. Why do you expect everybody to have an incredible IQ?

Why are you making stuff up? Who is mentioning whether it's ok or not? I'm not against how a girl wants to dress, it's her choice. However, if a 16 year old girl dresses up with the purpose of looking attractive or in a manner that shows a lot of skin, then she is going to attract male attention. Whether she wants to or not. If she doesn't want this, she need only dress appropriately. If she chooses not to, she has no right to complain.

A girl cannot walk out of her house with a mega short skirt and a shirt that shows a lot, then say "I don't like these men staring at me." It's stupid.

Originally posted by overlord
Yes, I can judge neutrally and keep my calm unlike others. You on the otherhand have elevated my prime message to such a level that I suspect some kind of psychosis on your part. Thanks for including that.. I could have never known it was you..

Welcome to the news, up next: Can Overlord stay on topic? A recent study proves that no, he cannot.

Originally posted by overlord
But anyway.. This kind of retarded way of discussing makes us forget about what we were essentially discussing. I guess there is no way of going back now, is there?

Well yes there is, why are you being stupid?

Here is a single point, reply to it:

If a woman dresses provocatively, gets drunk around men and consequently raped during intoxication, do you NOT agree that it retracts credibility from her claim? That she is partly responsible?

Oh, of course not. Because you believe teens brains aren't developed.

Bs.

-AC

On the issue of provocation, I agree that common sense is important, though I don't think the victim has any inherent to blame for the actions of criminals who think a short skirt is an invitation and justification.

Much like a person who leaves their window open to let air in, only to have a criminal come through and rob them - they aren't responsible for the actions of the criminal, but sadly we live in a world were people take advantage of any opening, real or imagined. We have to accept it, and act accordingly. It would be nice to think we are free to do whatever and be safe and have our rights and privileges protected, but sadly there are those out there that will always be flies in the ointment.

As a result sometimes people should just ere on the side of caution, whether it be going to a club, flashing cash in a bad part of town, leaving a window open, whatever. It's not the victims fault, they didn't ask for it, didn't want it, but the important thing is to learn from such things. If there are ways to minimise risk, then that should be done, even if it means dressing down a bit. I mean, I remember the children's safety officer giving talks to us in High School about the dangers that we could be facing now that we are "becoming adults with interests and desires and new freedoms." And they said things, for both girls and guys, that were basically common sense - don't travel alone, don't get to the stage were you can't defend or decide for yourself, don't trust strangers, no matter how nice, don't except pills or drinks that come from unknown sources, that kind of thing. Of course they also said about rape, and how it's not the victims fault, but the important thing is to just avoid such situations, and that while everybody believes it will never happen to them, it could.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
On the issue of provocation, I agree that common sense is important, though I don't think the victim has any inherent to blame for the actions of criminals who think a short skirt is an invitation and justification.

Much like a person who leaves their window open to let air in, only to have a criminal come through and rob them - they aren't responsible for the actions of the criminal, but sadly we live in a world were people take advantage of any opening, real or imagined. We have to accept it, and act accordingly. It would be nice to think we are free to do whatever and be safe and have our rights and privileges protected, but sadly there are those out there that will always be flies in the ointment.

As a result sometimes people should just ere on the side of caution, whether it be going to a club, flashing cash in a bad part of town, leaving a window open, whatever. It's not the victims fault, they didn't ask for it, didn't want it, but the important thing is to learn from such things. If there are ways to minimise risk, then that should be done, even if it means dressing down a bit. I mean, I remember the children's safety officer giving talks to us in High School about the dangers that we could be facing now that we are "becoming adults with interests and desires and new freedoms." And they said things, for both girls and guys that was basically common sense - don't travel alone, don't get to the stage were you can't defend of decide for yourself, don't trust strangers, no matter how nice, don't except pills or drinks that come from unknown sources, that kind of thing. Of course they also said about rape, and how it's not the victims fault, but the important thing is to just avoid such situations, and that while everybody believes it will never happen to them, it could.

Nobody is saying the woman would be responsible for his actions. Just not doing anything to prevent them, which means she's somewhat to blame. Not for the act, but for not doing anything to prevent it.

I genuinely do not know how many of the people here have to continue saying this before it actually sinks through.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nobody is saying the woman would be responsible for his actions. Just not doing anything to prevent them, which means she's somewhat to blame. Not for the act, but for not doing anything to prevent it.

I genuinely do not know how many of the people here have to continue saying this before it actually sinks through.

-AC

Because they think being "new men" is the only way into a girls pants!

COME ON THATS BULL!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nobody is saying the woman would be responsible for his actions. Just not doing anything to prevent them, which means she's somewhat to blame. Not for the act, but for not doing anything to prevent it.

I genuinely do not know how many of the people here have to continue saying this before it actually sinks through.

-AC

Oh, I agree with you, to a degree - people need to be aware of the dangers, and act accordingly, because as I said - there are always people ready to take advantage. It's a dangerous world we live in.

Certainly there are things that can be done to mitigate risk, and not doing them is a problem, and a bad thing to do. People need to learn. However the crime is still rape. I know what your saying about how charges are viewed, but there isn't a charge for provoking rape, or for dressing and drinking in a way that leads to certain people taking advantage of the situation - yes, a bit of blame might rest with them for not taking steps before hand, but then it is impossible to completely eliminate all risk ( as we know plenty of rapes take place when a person is sober and dressed sensibly.) I guess what I was getting at is that the way she is dressed shouldn't influence any investigation - dress style shouldn't make he statements any more or less valid, though level of intoxication are very relevant.

Still, I would like more information on this topic, such as a definition of "drinking" - how much have they drunk, how effected by it and where were they drinking.



Hehehe. Not quite sure what a new man is, I imagine it's a polar oppisite to the chaps in your sig. Still, not quite sure what a persons views on rape have to do with new men and getting into girls pants.

Originally posted by sharda22
COME ON THATS BULL!

No a bull is a large male bovine.

yOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, SO IF YOUR SISTER OR DAUGHTER WAS ATTACKED YOU WOULD THINK THE SAME GARBAGE.

Originally posted by sharda22
yOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, SO IF YOUR SISTER OR DAUGHTER WAS ATTACKED YOU WOULD THINK THE SAME GARBAGE.

So what is it in the thread you disagree with, is it AC's posts.

I can't understand why you would have kirk in ur sig... Riker would of been the better choice...

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
SO? Still doesnt change the fact that its rape.

Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
I can't understand why you would have kirk in ur sig... Riker would of been the better choice...

I disagree. Koik is de man...hell, who kicked the bad guy's ass in the movie "Star Trek: Generations"? Who's got a flying double-kick almost as lethal as the all-poweful Batkick? Who's got the toupe that doesn't fly off even when Spock's freakin' out from blue balls?

Nobody bed's the galaxy's babes like James T.

Hes the only 1 in the sig whos got normal hair... While Kirk is the man... Rikers beard could easily work there way into the sig...

Though personaly I would of had "Dirty harry" eastwood in there over kirk/riker

Yeah, must be because you're such a smart kid and everything, still.. Don't just go laugh at everything I say because you're upset.

And yeah, you do come across as frustrated as this discussion is about nothing already. Look at yourself, what do you want from me? Do you expect me to say: wow, you make so much sense by questioning every little thing I say, hell.. I shouldn't input to a thread in the first place. I should stfu!Well, go question yourself before you get all insane on my ass. And you still shouldn't question the facts of life because the government does something wich leads you to assume all kinds of stuff.Wow, you're really good at making your points there and convincing me. But no, they are aware of what they do but they aren't all smart enough to know every risk involving their actions like you expect from everybody.You do realise that it's only a third of the rapes wich happen under influence? Either way, we can't even state that as a fact because it's not reported most of the times. They just go out to have a good time wich is normal and not all realise the actual dangers of certain aspects of going out.
You want to make a discussion about their responsibility.. Wow, just wow.. I guess you must be even more bored than me.Man, d00d, man, I'm so funny ain't I? Or is it because you are just attacking me?

And if you would really let me have my own opinion then you wouldn't have responded nutty like this. Still.. You are greatly exagurating about my view being illogical, dangerous and nonsensical. If you would even comprehend my original message then maybe you would find yourself insane to have responded like you did.Putting words in my mouth? You really view this as some kind of far out e-battle, don't you? And if you would read the thread again and comprehend what I have told a million times then you would perhaps understand that my so called attitude isn't at all threatening to anybody.Contrary to popular believe.. You just make up whole facts don't you? It's more that you don't want to believe that the brain isn't fully developt yet during their teens. That's why some do even more irrational things than dress 'provocatively'..I don't know why you said that dressing comment but I'm not making stuff up, don't worry.

For the rest; that comment was decent. Far better than all the other nonsense you need to discuss for some reason. But stating your opinion like a fact doesn't convince me if that is still your intention anyway.

You're making it sound like she can expect abuse with dressing oh so provocatively. Maybe girls go outside their houses whilst naked in the UK but they don't do that here and they are still being taken advantage of.
So I guess that just focusing on the clothes doesn't help solve the problem does it? Although it seems the easy way out of a subject as this.Was that supposed to be funny or do you want me to leap in some insane rage as you? But it's actually you who keeps straying off topic to make an even elaborate useless discussion.

And although you decide to mock me: I still believe that you come across as insane to elevate my original message like that. Just look at what you are doing, you rave on like a madman with my best suited quotes. Maybe I should constantly confront you about the off base things you say.

And to the question: no, I don't believe she is partly responsible if she gets 'consequently' raped by men she meets at bars just because she wears oh so provocative clothes and consumes alcohol like everybody else in the world.
She should however report the guys who do this instead of feeling guilty like a lot of them do.

What do you want from me? A discussion about giving a rape victim some blame too? Go take a day off to rethink what is actually so important about this useless discussion.

-Overlord, out! (till tomorrow, AC!)

Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, must be because you're such a smart kid and everything, still.. Don't just go laugh at everything I say because you're upset.

That again? New material is needed, I sense desperation.

Originally posted by overlord
And yeah, you do come across as frustrated as this discussion is about nothing already. Look at yourself, what do you want from me? Do you expect me to say: wow, you make so much sense by questioning every little thing I say, hell.. I shouldn't input to a thread in the first place. I should stfu!

If you wanna tell me where I said this is what I want, then I'll admit to wanting it. I want you to start reading my posts and stop acting stupid, that would be at the top of my wish list right now. Can you do that?

Originally posted by overlord
Well, go question yourself before you get all insane on my ass. And you still shouldn't question the facts of life because the government does something wich leads you to assume all kinds of stuff.Wow, you're really good at making your points there and convincing me. But no, they are aware of what they do but they aren't all smart enough to know every risk involving their actions like you expect from everybody.

I'm not saying that EVERY single teen always has the 100% presence of mind to stay out of trouble, but what you are proposing is much more unrealistic. 16 year olds aren't "stupid" in the sense that they have absolutely no clue what's going on. Most of the time the dangerous situations they may get themselves into probably comes with curiousity, not the lack of a developed brain.

Either way, you are using that excuse and it's a poor excuse.

Originally posted by overlord
You do realise that it's only a third of the rapes wich happen under influence? Either way, we can't even state that as a fact because it's not reported most of the times. They just go out to have a good time wich is normal and not all realise the actual dangers of certain aspects of going out.

For the millionth time: YES, they have that right and going out to have a "good time" is normal. Going out at 16 dressed like a "good time" girl is not, is it? No. Therefore, if you dress in a way that will quite obviously attract the UNwanted attention of men, you have absolutely no right to complain. Precautions, yes? Look at yourself in the mirror and question "Is this sensible?". You don't need to wear a short skirt and have your breasts on display to have a good time.

Originally posted by overlord
You want to make a discussion about their responsibility.. Wow, just wow.. I guess you must be even more bored than me.Man, d00d, man, I'm so funny ain't I? Or is it because you are just attacking me?

What are you even talking about?

Originally posted by overlord
And if you would really let me have my own opinion then you wouldn't have responded nutty like this. Still.. You are greatly exagurating about my view being illogical, dangerous and nonsensical. If you would even comprehend my original message then maybe you would find yourself insane to have responded like you did. Putting words in my mouth? You really view this as some kind of far out e-battle, don't you? And if you would read the thread again and comprehend what I have told a million times then you would perhaps understand that my so called attitude isn't at all threatening to anybody.

You believe that in no circumstance is a female responsible AT ALL for a rape occuring. What more is there to say? You are quite clearly in the wrong.

Many people here are making that point and you just continually ignore it because as I have come to discover, you are quite unintelligent.

Originally posted by overlord
Contrary to popular believe.. You just make up whole facts don't you? It's more that you don't want to believe that the brain isn't fully developt yet during their teens. That's why some do even more irrational things than dress 'provocatively'..I don't know why you said that dressing comment but I'm not making stuff up, don't worry.

You are, aren't you? Because you're jabbering on about everything and anything except the point at hand. You have been for the past 5 replies more or less.

Making the decision to wear something slutty doesn't mean your brain is undeveloped, it means you're making a stupid decision. Adults make stupid decisions. Humans in general make stupid decisions. It has nothing to do with undeveloped brains. If a girl makes the decision to walk out of her house looking like a sl*t or to a lesser degree, wearing provocative outfits (which everyone here has seemed to grasp, except you) then she cannot deny that it will attract attention. Some men are despicable enough to act on it against her will. Is it her fault that they are like that? No. Did she do all in her power to make sure she isn't inviting it? No.

Originally posted by overlord
For the rest; that comment was decent. Far better than all the other nonsense you need to discuss for some reason. But stating your opinion like a fact doesn't convince me if that is still your intention anyway.

You're making it sound like she can expect abuse with dressing oh so provocatively. Maybe girls go outside their houses whilst naked in the UK but they don't do that here and they are still being taken advantage of.
So I guess that just focusing on the clothes doesn't help solve the problem does it? Although it seems the easy way out of a subject as this.

Should she expect abuse? No. Should she expect that her decision may have negative consequence? Yes.

If I walk down the road wearing a t-shirt that says "I am a racist, homophobic guy who kills people." That's my right to wear that, I'm not hurting anyone. Yet if a guy comes over and beats the shit out of me for it, is he right? No. However, I cannot say "I couldn't have prevented it." I could have. My decision to wear that shirt could have gone unnoticed and I might have been fine. On this day however, I came across a guy dumb enough to act it out. I didn't make any effort to stop this happening and so responsibility partially rests on me. Not for his actions, but for mine. The same applies to rape, believe it or not.

Originally posted by overlord
And although you decide to mock me: I still believe that you come across as insane to elevate my original message like that. Just look at what you are doing, you rave on like a madman with my best suited quotes. Maybe I should constantly confront you about the off base things you say.

Off base? What off base things? If it's off base it's because I've come to drag your illiterate, non-sensical self back to topic. You are the one filling up pages with all this "rage" talk.

Originally posted by overlord
And to the question: no, I don't believe she is partly responsible if she gets 'consequently' raped by men she meets at bars just because she wears oh so provocative clothes and consumes alcohol like everybody else in the world. She should however report the guys who do this instead of feeling guilty like a lot of them do.

Well then you are as naive as the teens you refer to and your opinion on this matter is of no consequence or use. You're entitled to it, but it doesn't mean much. Your way of thinking is dangerous and wreckless.

Question: If your daughter was going out of the house wearing provocative clothing to party or club etc, would you not stop her if you had power to? Or at least advise against it? Knowing that there are guys out there who may very well take that the wrong way, and knowing that her choice to dress in such a way is merely increasing the chances of rape or attack?

Or would you just be of the mentality "Go on, have a good time. You wear what you want. If you get raped, is just the man's fault."?

-AC

Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
Hes the only 1 in the sig whos got normal hair... While Kirk is the man... Rikers beard could easily work there way into the sig...

Though personaly I would of had "Dirty harry" eastwood in there over kirk/riker

Ripped Shirt Kirk is a god of camp hijinx, he has the axe handle of doom and the metal pipe from nowhere attack. On a more serious note he was involved in the first on tv screen multi racial kiss.

Lol... You should check out this sight... You will appreciate the chuck facts...

http://www.4q.cc/chuck/index.php?topthirty

Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
Lol... You should check out this sight... You will appreciate the chuck facts...

http://www.4q.cc/chuck/index.php?topthirty

I know it well it used to be my sig along with this

http://www.collegehumor.com/movies/1642842/

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Making the decision to wear something slutty doesn't mean your brain is undeveloped, it means you're making a stupid decision. Adults make stupid decisions. Humans in general make stupid decisions. It has nothing to do with undeveloped brains. If a girl makes the decision to walk out of her house looking like a sl*t or to a lesser degree, wearing provocative outfits (which everyone here has seemed to grasp, except you) then she cannot deny that it will attract attention. Some men are despicable enough to act on it against her will. Is it her fault that they are like that? No. Did she do all in her power to make sure she isn't inviting it? No.

should she expect abuse? No. Should she expect that her decision may have negative consequence? Yes.

If I walk down the road wearing a t-shirt that says "I am a racist, homophobic guy who kills people." That's my right to wear that, I'm not hurting anyone. Yet if a guy comes over and beats the shit out of me for it, is he right? No. However, I cannot say "I couldn't have prevented it." I could have. My decision to wear that shirt could have gone unnoticed and I might have been fine. On this day however, I came across a guy dumb enough to act it out. I didn't make any effort to stop this happening and so responsibility partially rests on me. Not for his actions, but for mine. The same applies to rape, believe it or not.

Off base? What off base things? If it's off base it's because I've come to drag your illiterate, non-sensical self back to topic. You are the one filling up pages with all this "rage" talk.

Well then you are as naive as the teens you refer to and your opinion on this matter is of no consequence or use. You're entitled to it, but it doesn't mean much. Your way of thinking is dangerous and wreckless.

Question: If your daughter was going out of the house wearing provocative clothing to party or club etc, would you not stop her if you had power to? Or at least advise against it? Knowing that there are guys out there who may very well take that the wrong way, and knowing that her choice to dress in such a way is merely increasing the chances of rape or attack?

Or would you just be of the mentality "Go on, have a good time. You wear what you want. If you get raped, is just the man's fault."?


That's almost what I think, nothing wrong with toning it down a bit. Heck, I'll admit I'm a bit of a prude, chances of rape aside a person just looks better in my opinion if they dress with a bit of style and self-respect - one doesn't have to go skimpy, or trashy or all revealing to look nice. I can only hope if I ever have a daughter that by then society will have changed a bit so short and revealing isn't still all the rage. I imagine if it hasn't then we will argue about what constitutes good taste, and just plain down and out sensibility.

Dangerous people are out there, so as I said do what you can to avoid trouble from those who think a short skirt symbolises a desire to be forced into sex, even though even taking that step doesn't really grant 100% protection.

Still, it would be interesting to know statistically, in terms of probability, the degree that quality of clothing and the environment have in increasing danger. After all plenty of people are raped when dressed sensibly, and not all of them are teens, and not all are in a club or the like and so forth, and plenty of people dressing provocatively go out and all that and never have a problem. I realise it's only a certain percentage in question with this current debate, but are a majority of rape victims actually, or at least seen as, teens dressed "provocatively", intoxicated to the degree of inability to resist and out clubbing? Or only one or two of these classes?

I think most rape case's are usually by money hungry females or females wanting attention or females that were drunk had a root one night and the guy gets rid of her the next day so they go scream rape.

I personally feel that rape would be far too traumatic of an experience to take any silly chances, if I were a female.

-AC

Originally posted by K.Diddy
I think most rape case's are usually by money hungry females or females wanting attention or females that were drunk had a root one night and the guy gets rid of her the next day so they go scream rape.

You're an idiot, and it's that kind of attitude that keeps some females from reporting their rape.

Originally posted by K.Diddy
I think most rape case's are usually by money hungry females or females wanting attention or females that were drunk had a root one night and the guy gets rid of her the next day so they go scream rape.

Hmmpth. "Females"? My goodness, I think most of what you said is absurd. It's been established there are cases of false alagations, but there are plenty of real cases of it, and really what you just posted reveals terribly outdated, ignorant views. Rape is a serious social problem that causes a great deal of emotional harm, as well as potentially negative social views. Yes, people have faked it, but far, far, far less then the "most" in your post.

That, and I'll think you'll find most "females" are far from the shallow beings that you make them out to be, most of who wouldn't dream of faking something as serious - some, yes, but most no.

Originally posted by silver_tears
You're an idiot, and it's that kind of attitude that keeps some females from reporting their rape.


its also the same reason that makes it harder for any woman to report rape. Make sure you not only scream at the rapers but the women that cry wolf............

I am not desperate for winning some idiotic battle if you assume that (you probably recognise that because that is the case with you), I am defending myself because I choose to do so.I don't care about a wishlist and you keeping to force your view on me and mocking me isn't convincing.

And no, you don't state that you want a battle but you certainly come across as it, don't lie to yourself that you are so innocent with all that calling me out nonsense.I'm not using anything as an excuse because I stand neutral in this dumb discussion. But it's still rediculous that you expect so much from teenagers going out and following the crowd. And just because one government has certain rules doesn't mean that kids really do realise the small chance of danger involved with something wich seems as normal according to the general opinion of everybody.You are greatly exagurating like a small child again. Men get aroused by curves and skin, is that an excuse for pushing it upon women to watch everything they wear?
But you are relying way too much on the clothing thing anyway, as if that is the conclusive factor in the decision of trying everything they can to get in her pants (as far as rape). In your opinion it evidently is a major factor but I'm staying realistic; I know that it matters little and certainly doesn't force men to commit rape.You might want to stop ripping my texts out of context and respond to them appropriately.
Hence why I said that you shouldn't discuss in a stupid way like this because it only creates confusion about what we are actually talking about. If you don't get it anymore then you shouldn't look at me.Quite putting words in my mouth to make me look like a fool, it is childish and useless. You keep exagurating everything to get you out of this pointless discussion. Of course there can be situations where men actually get mixed signals and don't get that she actually doesn't want to have intercourse but is that what you want to say? You know damn well that I was speaking generally as paranoid occasions like these rarely happen. But a man just shouldn't stick his dick in a heavily intoxicated girl anyway.
But to return to the original message wich was "we should discourage putting any degree of blame on girls who were raped because most are too scared or confused to report it anyway", you want to have a discussion about this.. Why?I'll adress this specifically again.
You believe that everybody agrees with you. That's fine although irrelevant. And you discovered that I am quite unintelligent. Is that why you "called me out"? Your arrogant persona apperantly expects a lot from me although I am just a random internet user.
Either way, it's totally unnecessary to keep hammering on me that you think I'm stupid, it makes you come across as frustrated.Yeah, I'm making everything up and it was my evil plan all along to annoy you from the second I came in.

"Did she do all in her power to make sure she isn't inviting it? No." You keep ignoring my comments that you expect too much of teenagers and that you question that a brain isn't fully developt yet till a certain age has become irrelevant as you ripped it out of context and started using it everywhere.Of course she should expect it, but it's not a perfect world and young people still don't realise the immediate danger wich you stress on with their clothing. I certainly don't expect people who still aren't adult yet to just realise every danger.

As for your exagurated examples, just stop trying to match that up with this case. It's far from convincing.No, you could have expected that I came to defend myself to all those comment about me not grasping reality and being stupid just because I don't agree with you.

And don't claim that you have been easy on me. You may be anonymous about the actual emotion behind you stories but you come across as frustrated with constantly telling me your opinion about my intelligenceYeah, I am so 'wreckless' and dangerous because I defend the action of teenagers like I do.

You act as if I have the ability to change the world with my opinion. My view wich you are very poorly battling isn't dangerous to anyone.Oh my god! I finally realise it! Those clothing just invites men to rape here and is the absolute decisive cause of the man's decision!

But seriously.. If that single small factor is the whole foundation of your flawed view and the cause of this pointless discussion then I can only say one word: excuse.
Why else would you change the whole topic of my original argument of discouraging putting any degree of blame on a rape victim to stop the fear of reporting.

Overlord has missed AC's point and wants to be seen as a caring guy

yes i reckon 70% of he time, the women that are raped are dressed unapropriatly. men are more likely to go for a woman who has a mini skirt on then for someone who has jeans on. is the woman to blame for wearing a skirt? yes she is partially to blame.will she dress like that again after being raped? i doubt it. i agree with AC that young girls should have the mental capacity to know whatrs right and wrong, but but i doubt they have rape running through there mind just before they go out. they are young and want to have a good time and they are just following the pack. i think the way society promotes sex is disgusting and everyone is mindcontrolled following the 'norms'. yes they should tone down what they wear to help prevent things like rape happening. but there are risks everywhere.

Overlord, you've completely missed my point so many times. I'll no longer indulge you and do you the service of continually explaining it.

You are quite clearly an idiot with zero memory or attention span. I suggest you take leave and leave the discussing to people who know what they're talking about.

-AC

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Isn't dressing, umm, provocatively, going to bar with full of horny men and getting drunk kinda like bathing in blood and going to a shark tank?

You just hit the spot with that comment, I agree completely. Although it pains me to admit it, being rather an attention seeking, provocative young madam myself, I have to say that purposely placing yourself in a compromising position immediately renders you partly responsible for any ensuing occurrences.

As for the rest of you, you're chasing one another in circles

I think you'll find that VVD, myself and a few others have all said that way before DarkCrawler.

Not too kind to those of us who have been contributing for you to come in and praise someone else for making the point we all made way back .

-AC

Rapists like to plan their assault using Spanish Fly and GHB and what not. What better than mix it with her favourite beverage ?

I read the whole thread, AC, I didn't mean for my comment to sound as though I was praising only DC. I saw that you and a few others made the same statement. I simply thought that DC's way of wording it was quite effective, it caught my eye and I decided to quote. Are you going to argue with that?

Apologies if I made you feel as though you were being overlooked, I can assure you this is not the case. I read each and every post you make with unabashed enthusiasm and await your next showing of opinion with baited breath

It wasn't as serious as you're making it out to be but we all know you have a habit of doing that, because that's what you do.

I was just saying not to overlook ANYONE who has said it by praising someone who simply words it how you like.

-AC