Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who would take this one?

Advantages:
Sith:
1. much more freedom when it comes to direction
2. The Dark Side sorcery bit
3. as they have a cluster of worlds, easy to defend and plan, if they have a strong Lord.

The Vong:
1. Numbers, far more than the Sith, a whole galaxy's worth.
2. Inventive. The Shaper and priest castes are always bringing out new weaponry.
3. Unable to be affected by most powers of and undetectable via the Force. It's unlikely strict adherents to the Dark Side could actually sense them.
4. Totally unselfish: They'll build a rampart of their dead to fight over, a Sith wouldn't ever willingly give his life.

It's hard to tell, but when it comes to ground battles, the Sith can't afford to sacrifice troops out of sheer numbers. This is a tough matchup. Your thoughts?

Since the Force, Dark or Light, would be ineffective against the Vong in general, (except for techniques that are only fueled by the Force, but still cause harm..i.e Lightning,) And since I'm pretty sure the only way to thin the Vong numbers are to get Sadow to blow up a very stragetic star....then I doubt the Sith would win.

Long fight though, those Sith are tenacious.

Sadow'd have to blow up a lot of stars though...like I said, the Vong are numerous enough to populate a galaxy and are much less self serving than the Sith...They'd have no compunction hurling their fighters, pilot and all into colissions....and if captured, they could laugh all the way through torture

Vong Pawn.

How often did the Sith Empire send their own ground troops? Sadow used Massassi forces, it's not like they had Siths doing any dirty work. Vong don't "pawn" anything.

Originally posted by Illustrious
How often did the Sith Empire send their own ground troops? Sadow used Massassi forces, it's not like they had Siths doing any dirty work. Vong don't "pawn" anything. I-i-i-I'm sorry...I don't folow. Ya know....lead behind......follow.

The Yuuzhan Vong pwn them easily. They will kill the Sith in both ground and space with their superior technology and immunity to the force. Also note that the Sith lack hyperspace routes and are therefor unable to attack the Yuuzhan Vong who are not in Sith territory.

When they run out of Massassi, the Sith're gonna have to deal with this themselves...The Vong can sit back and let their reptile slaves do the work against the Massassi....and the average Vong could take down a LOT of Massassi

I doubt a Vong can take a Massassi on his own. A Slayer could take dozens of them and Shimrra could probably fight hundreds of Massassi, but it's the Vong's massive numbers and hundreds of force hunting Voxyn that will give them victory.

Masassi were little more than cannon fodder, we saw the Republic generic soldiers killing a few themselves....And Vong....all of them are warriors of an elite level. Shedao Shai's subordinate flicked a knife out of the air with his amphistaff-from a Noghri no less-, swept his legs out, impaled him and turned to face Jacen and Ganner before the knife hit the ground. A Vong could probably give a sith warrior a run for his money. Tsavong Lah himself could tear most of them limb from limb
And Jori Daragon, a girl just given a lightsaber manages to kill Gav's Massassi escort.

Shai's subordinate was far from an average Yuuzhan Vong. You are right though, the Vong will win.

Thought so.

I wasn't talking about Deign Lian, I was talking about...whatshisname...Krag Val. He was a pretty average Vong warrior

Dont forget Shimmra took on NJO Luke, he could take on the most powerful dark lords including Ragnos.

Nah, NJO Luke wouldn't be able to take Ragnos and Shimrra only nearly took Luke after Luke had already fought several slayers.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Nah, NJO Luke wouldn't be able to take Ragnos and Shimrra only nearly took Luke after Luke had already fought several slayers.

You have any reasoning behind that claim? And Luke took out those slayers fairly easily, it wouldnt give him enough of a workout that the fight with Shimmra would be affected.

Nope, by then, Luke is probably the most powerful Force User of all time. Shimrra was a freaking monster and Luke managed to kill him after the Slayers and cutting his way through thousands of Vong

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope, by then, Luke is probably the most powerful Force User of all time. Shimrra was a freaking monster and Luke managed to kill him after the Slayers and cutting his way through thousands of Vong

Excluding Sekot and Nihilus yeh probably.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
You have any reasoning behind that claim? And Luke took out those slayers fairly easily, it wouldnt give him enough of a workout that the fight with Shimmra would be affected.

Read TUF. Even before Luke made it to Shimrra, he was exausted, if even said so. He had a very hard time doing it. That was after fighting hundreds of Vong.

Nothing has ever shown Luke to be the most powerful force user of all time. He could get anyone a hard time, but he's certainly not the strongest.

He didn't 'say so', it was what JAcen sensed....he was exhausted because he's near fifty and hacked his way through an ARMY....considering he killed the elite of the Vong crop after hacking through army and then killed Shimrra himself...not to mention some of the things he does in Dark Nest...and in a weaker incarnation, bested Sidious-DE Sidious at that, outsmarted Exar Kun, blocked a storm of blaster shots, created a shield from the force alone to shield him from an AT AT's blaster shots....there's really no competition, not any other force user has done things that come close

And not the strongest? He tosses fleets of star destroyers around, returns to his body, moves black holes, hides planets from view, is declared hands down THE strongest jedi of all time, channels spirits, moves fast enough to wield one lightsaber as if it were twenty...

Ever heard the term hyperbole? It is more likely then not Jaina used that when describing how Luke fought, since he did have a hard time with the unimpressive Welk. Sadow ripped out the cores of stars with the same technology he kept with him at all times. Strongest Jedi doesn't meant strongest force user. Ragnos kept all of those people who could throuw stars under his belt for over a hundred years. To say Luke is the strongest is unfounded, although he would give anyone a hard time.

Point is that Luke was exausted by the time he fought Shimrra, meaning Shimrra isn't almost equal to Luke, making him a good bit weaker then the likes of Sadow and Ragnos. I'm not saying the Sith wouuldn't lose,it just won't be overkill on the ground.

I don't see why people keep falling back on the star ripping feats when discussing the ancient sith. Especially considering that they used tech to do it. Hell, Kun's lackey Aleema, who is fairly low tiered, was able to reproduce such a feat when given the right equipment, which kinda takes away from the star ripping as a whole. Also, what has Ragnos done that you can say he's the strongest. Aside from assumptions of course.

Ragnos ever threw a star? Source now. When is it said he ever could? And Sadow never tore a star core's out: He caused a chain reaction in the core. And for all we know, Shimrra would destroy any of the ancient Sith with pure power alone. That he killed Shimrra while exhausted is Luke's skill, not shim's deficiency

And a hard time with Welk? Luke was holding back more than he was with Lomi Plo. The second he got serious, Welk died. It was
Luke: Come on, welk, you don't need to do this
Welk: DARK NEST IS INVINCIBLE! HIIIIIISSSSSSS!
*SLASH SLASH SLASH!
Luke: Now look what you made me do...

I never said he could throw a star, please take time to read my post, doing what you are currently doing makes you look ignorant. I said Ragnos ruled over hundreds of people who had the power to throw stars. He kept them in line by focusing them on him. He made them hate him and want him dead, yet they weren't strong enough to even challenge him. That's power.

Why did they never throw stars then? Woulda helped a lot when Kressh wanted to ambush Sadow and Sadow needed to escape pursuit...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I never said he could throw a star, please take time to read my post, doing what you are currently doing makes you look ignorant. I said Ragnos ruled over hundreds of people who had the power to throw stars. He kept them in line by focusing them on him. He made them hate him and want him dead, yet they weren't strong enough to even challenge him. That's power.

Wait a second, hundreds of star throwers here. If my memory serves me correct, only Sadow did such. I don't remember anyone else except for Aleema later on, albeit an ultimately fatal attempt. Still, I don't see why the star ripping is such a big deal when Sadow requires his ship to do so. It certainly proves his intelligence and ingenuity, and he's certainly above average in terms of power, but NJO Luke? no way

Just imagine the force power you would need to create a ship like that? It wasn't like he used technology to do it, he used the force. He still needed to be powerful enough to do it himself, otherwise he couldn't have made technology to do it.

Ragnos ruled over hundreds of star throwers..
They should make a movie about that: "Star Socker"

Originally posted by Fishy
Just imagine the force power you would need to create a ship like that? It wasn't like he used technology to do it, he used the force. He still needed to be powerful enough to do it himself, otherwise he couldn't have made technology to do it.

The fact is though that we have no clue as to what it took to make that thing. We do know that when he used it, he was able to destroy a star, but that in no way means that he can do it without. So, until evidence comes out to the contrary, we have to assume it can only be done using that ship.

No proof Sadow even ade the ship, Fishy. Because, quite frankly, it is obviously the ship that does the destruction.

I can imagine this war would turn into something of an NJO/Vong scenario.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No proof Sadow even ade the ship, Fishy. Because, quite frankly, it is obviously the ship that does the destruction. Can you prove that?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ever heard the term hyperbole? It is more likely then not Jaina used that when describing how Luke fought, since he did have a hard time with the unimpressive Welk.

Yet he managed to own Raynar Thul and Lomi Plo simultaneously. Funny how that works.



And saying something like 'Ragnos pwns him' isn't unfounded?




Agreed here. While the Sith lack the inter-galactic resources, numbers, and naval ability, they're no push-overs.

Actually, they may be able to handle the Vong in space for a very long time with their mysticism and illusions. And certainly, their individual skills would be pains in the necks.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Yet he managed to own Raynar Thul and Lomi Plo simultaneously. Funny how that works.

What do you mean own? Raynar shoved him into the wall and if he hadn't been wearing a helmet would have shattered his skull.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
And saying something like 'Ragnos pwns him' isn't unfounded?

Who said Ragnos pwns who?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What do you mean own? Raynar shoved him into the wall and if he hadn't been wearing a helmet would have shattered his skull.

DN3, Glentract. The very last battle.



You said Ragnos would defeat Luke, and then claim others are using unfounded assumptions when they argue otherwise.

"Nah, NJO Luke wouldn't be able to take Ragnos. . . "

Marka was powerful, no doubt, but there is just no solid evidence to support the claim that he would "pwn" NJO Luke, or vice versa.

I'd say Luke's done more than a few impressive things to support a pro in his opinion...and a student of Luke's Academy managed to outwit and stop Ragnos

To stop Long-Dead Ragnos, not Ragnos at his prime.

Ragnos was practically the dark side herald. His brains and ability shouldn't have been hindered too much while in Tavion. For evidence, I point to Palpatine inhabiting Jeng Droga or Ben inhabiting Luke

If you've been dead 5000 years, even Marka Ragnos won't be as powerful as he once was.

But still, he'd probably waste Pre-NJO Luke. Late and Post-NJO Luke though is another story.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
DN3, Glentract. The very last battle.

That is what I'm referring to. Raynar threw Luke against the wall and a blast helemt split in half when his head hit the wall. Luke would have had a shattered skull if he hadn't be wearing the helmet. They were obviously near Luke in power since everyone wanted him to bring backup.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
You said Ragnos would defeat Luke, and then claim others are using unfounded assumptions when they argue otherwise.

"Nah, NJO Luke wouldn't be able to take Ragnos. . . "

Because they can read other threads to see that Ragnos would take NJO Luke. I'm not going to repost the same arguments in every single thread pertaining to that character. Evidence has been shown that Ragnos would defeat Luke. Logical, sound evidence. Nothing of the sort has been shown in Luke's favor. They need to back up their claim because mine is well supported.

^Perhaps it would help if you could link to a thread where this "logical, sound" evidence is posted. After searching around a bit, all I've seen is people constantly saying Ragnos>Sadow thus Ragnos>Luke. It makes no sense.

Ragnos: Outwitted by a padawan/knight.
Luke: Canonically the strongest force user. Vader would have lost his arm to Luke if not for the suit. Luke DIDN'T bring backup and he never had any trouble with Raynar and Lomi. In fact, he held back a helluva lot since he was reluctant to kill them. He brought armor because it was practical. If I forget an imperative part of physical defense and I'm shot in the back, is the other guy a better fighter?

And what's Ragnos done even in Luke's ballpark?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ragnos: Outwitted by a padawan/knight.
Luke: Canonically the strongest force user. Vader would have lost his arm to Luke if not for the suit. Luke DIDN'T bring backup and he never had any trouble with Raynar and Lomi. In fact, he held back a helluva lot since he was reluctant to kill them. He brought armor because it was practical. If I forget an imperative part of physical defense and I'm shot in the back, is the other guy a better fighter?

And what's Ragnos done even in Luke's ballpark?

Ragnos lost because the body he possesed couldn't take his power and started breaking down, similar to what happened to Sidious' Clones, except that Sidious' broke down because of genetic tampering, while his was from his overbearing force presence.

WFT? Luke didn't bring back up in DN? He had 40 Platoons of Yuuxhan Vong Hunter Droids with him. That's a freakin army. Also note that he went full out on Lomi and was overpowered by Raynar at least once. If it hadn't been for his helmet, his skull would have been shattered by the wall when Raynar force pushed him.

Ragnos was stated as THE Dark Lord of the Sith. He was the most powerful person out of a species of demi-gods and even though they hated him, they still feared him and dared not challenge him, even when he was on his death bed. (Emphasis is the authors, not mine.)

Also note that Exar Kun, a guy who shook the ground with his footsteps and ripped apart Jedi Masters, feared Ragnos even when Ragnos was a spirit. Seeing as spirits get weaker over time, it is reasonable to believe that Ragnos by Sidious' time was weaker then Exar or Sidious. Also note that even as a spirit, Ragnos, or one of the people who feared him, was more perceptive then Sidious as they new about Anakin, but Sidious did not.

Where does this stuff about Luke being canonically the strongest ever come into play? Luke may very well be that later in his life(assuming he lives to 120 or something) but right now he is not.

LS, Luke wasn't shot in the back when he forgot the armor. He was overpowered. You example isn't related.

Also note that knowledge is lost overtime. Ragnos had more to learn from and more time to learn it.

Ragnos's servants were seen as a group of incompetent screw ups. Whenever a Sith Lord met a Jedi knight in his army, the Sith Lord died. The Jedi we saw fighting them suffered a few scars at worst.

Exar shook the ground? When was this exactly? Ripped apart JEdi masters? If you mean 'killed one master after a hard battle, killed an ancient Jedi master with a SITH GAUNTLET that wasn't his own power' and have his guards blindside Ood....well, Exar only ever defeated and killed one Jedi master...not altogether that impressive for Mr 'Makes the Ground Shake." And feared Ragnos? He saw him ONCE and commented on him once ("I've seen his remains on Korriban." Then Ragnos marked him and Ulic, that was the last Exar saw of Marka. And you'll notice that since Palpatine was trapped ina dying body and the spirits were connected DIRECTLY TO THE FORCE....geez, that's not exactly a misdemeanor there. And Ragnos lost. Tavion never 'broke down', plain and simple.
And knowledge ain't lost too much in Star Wars.

And 'overpowered?' So, Kun was overpowered by Sylvar and Vodo? See, Luke DID take a helmet because he knew of the danger and bested Lomi and Raynar on his own, while holding himself back supremely. He just twitched his hand twice and killed one of the heads of the Nightsisters.

And right now Luke's not the strongest? Not according to the NJO sourcebook.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That is what I'm referring to. Raynar threw Luke against the wall and a blast helemt split in half when his head hit the wall. Luke would have had a shattered skull if he hadn't be wearing the helmet. They were obviously near Luke in power since everyone wanted him to bring backup.

Yep. And that was one part of the battle. But by the end, Luke had crushed Lomi Plo's knee, disarmed Thul, slammed him into a wall, among other things. And then, in the final move, he clamly chops Lomi Plo into four pieces with a twitch of his lightsaber.

And do you recall the part where Luke matches Thul's Force push by immobilizing himself with the Force. Keep in mind that Raynar had the combined potential and power of the joined Hive. Luke is far, far above both Raynar and Lomi Plo.



Actually, they can't. All you have to go on with Ragnos are assumptions, and while Illustrious and Janus have managed -- through logic, reasoning, and common sense -- to establish that Ragnos would be a force to be reckoned with, there's nothing to say that he would, without a doubt, annihilate Luke.

Faunus you seem like a smart guy, there's something in the philosophy forum I think you should read and comment on.

Anyone remember when Luke killed Welk? That was badass incarnate

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ragnos's servants were seen as a group of incompetent screw ups. Whenever a Sith Lord met a Jedi knight in his army, the Sith Lord died. The Jedi we saw fighting them suffered a few scars at worst.


Eh ? What are you talking about ?



I wonder why you keep ignoring the little detail that all the nice "Dark Side Sith items pwning people and planets" have to come from somewhere and "somewhere" in this case is always the Ancient Sith Empire. And Ragnos was leading the Sith Empire in "it's golden age", "it's high point" and was "the most powerful" of them all. So if people less powerful than Ragnos were able create stuff that simply instakills Jedi Masters, and create force techniques able to instakill Jedi Masters (demonstrated by Kreia in KotoR 2 - again knowledge coming from the Ancient Sith) what do you think Ragnos would be able to do with all his nice Sith Magic toys ?



Let's use a little bit of logic here.
Since we have the nice concept of midi-chlorians available which determine the amount of "force power" (or force potential) a person can have it's really easy. Ragnos was the most powerful being the Ancient Sith Empire had seen in 20,000 years. Tavion was nothing special at all. Now the power of the Ragnos (or his spirit) was posessing Tavion's body. Now you can choose: Either Ragnos wouldn't have been able to transfer his entire power into Tavion OR Tavion would have been "overcharged" with Dark Side powers. It doesn't really matter. Whatever Jaden faced was not the "living Ragnos" but instead only a part of Ragnos power...

Spirits connected directly to the force ? That makes you omniscient ? I didn't have the impression that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin (Skywalker), Qu Rahn and so on were "omniscient" at all when the appeared as "force ghosts"...

And knowledge ain't lost too much in Star Wars ? I guess you haved missed the destruction of Ossus, the destruction of Malachor V and other events like that. Actually it's quite impossible that no knowledge would get lost over a time period of 5,000 years.

Again I wonder why you're discussing NJO Luke VS Ragnos again. This thread is Ancient Sith Empire vs Yuuzhan Vong. As far as I get it the "Ancient Sith Empire" would be 800 generations of Sith Lords, Dark Lords, other "Sith" (meaning force users) and basically every creator of Sith "technology" and Dark Side abilities that was present. That are roughly:
16,800 Sith Lords (20 Lords were present at Ragnos funeral + 1 Dark Lord -> 21 people per generation)
Millions of lower force users (since the Sith Lords just were the most powerful)
Billions of servants.

Now if you have every person at hand that ever lived in the Ancient Sith Empire it doesn't matter if Sadow built his ship or somebody else did it - the creator will be there meaning they could built more of them. And they could create more nasty items like armulets, sith swords, those "instakill gauntlets" and so on.

Finally you drop all that people and stuff on the Yuuzhan Vong. Well...I don't think that Ragnos would curbstomp NJO Luke but I don't think that NJO Luke, Jacen and Jaina are more powerful than several millions of force users with several thousands of them being as powerful as Sadow, Kressh or Simus either. And even in case the YV's can be affected by the force directly (at least Luke took out one of the slayers using the force) the Sith and the Massasi seem to be quite muscular fighters and throwing the cores of stars at their fleets or simply detonate stars / star systems would do some nice damage not even thinking about hundrets of Sith Lords boarding their ships or entering their HQ.

I don't think that the Yuuzhan Vong would be able to take this...not if it's the entire Ancient Sith Empire. If you just take one generation of Sith they still would be able to do at least some considerable damage if not even win against the YV.

Wow, Nai just owned us YV supporters. But how many years did the Ancient Sith exist?

Dude try being a bit more precise and to the point instead of waffling on. You write so much b.s. that its time consuming to reply to your post. And lots of what you are saying are just assumptions.

Originally posted by kingkman
Dude try being a bit more precise and to the point instead of waffling on. You write so much b.s. that its time consuming to reply to your post. And lots of what you are saying are just assumptions. Actually the only thing he is assuming is the numbers of the Sith. But if they were over many 1000's of years, he's quite close.

Logic is fundamental in debating this shit, try to use some.

Sorry who are you? Was I talking to you jackass?

You think i don't use logic huh, you want a 1 on 1 with me, i'll kick your ass. *****.

Originally posted by kingkman
You think i don't use logic huh, you want a 1 on 1 with me, i'll kick your ass. *****. Yeah sure, why not. I'll start.

It's more effective to the reader if you star th "i" in the word b*tch.

O.K. You go.

Is it my turn, o.k. People wouldn't think you're such a geek if you diidn't put "Nexus" under your location.

Not quoting Aristotle would help to.

1. What I'm talking about is easy, Bor: Not a single Jedi fighting a Sith lord in the Hyperspace War mano a mano suffered anything more than a scar
2. Well, Ragnos would be able to do...nothing more than make the Vong crack up, considering those force techniques don't work on Vong and the Sith couldn't be able to find them through the Force. And unless the seriously outnumbered Sith can afford to vaporize half their territory to dent the Vong. Ragnos's empire stagnated completely and fell apart upon his death, half in part to his incompetence.
3. It was still Ragnos's mind and spirit. And if he knows those dark side techniques, well that would've been a nice time to use them. Every other time someone's spirit appeared in someone else's body, no flaws...and Revan the strongest in 20,000 years? Ignoring Ragnos, Exar Kun, Arca Jeth, Ulic Qel-Droma, Tott Doneeta, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Thon...

4. That's possibly because Anakin and Yoda appeared once in wordless scenes as Force ghosts and Vergere seemed omniscient when she was a ghost to Jacen. OBi-wan was also deliberately concealing things from Luke...the Dark Woman appeared quite omniscient when she appeared as a spirit...and a funny thing about knowledge is it tends to resurface. Luke certainly got everything from Ossus thanks to several sources.

5. You are aware there are....trillions of Vong? And all those Sith forceusers won't help a damn against the Vong. Those weapons and gauntlets can take decades to actively create.

6. You may not think Luke, Jaina/Jacen are stronger than those 'millions'.....I'd like some proof here. Jaina/Jacen and Luke do far more than any other era, are basically stated to be the top force users...

7. At the point Luke killed a slayer with the lightning, Luke had learned to connect them through the Force thanks to Sekot...something Dark Siders CANNOT do.

8. Now, the Sith would have to be detonating their OWN stars, because they CANNOT leave their own space or they risk massive invasion from the Vong, who can match them man to man-The Sith empire was maybe....ten worlds, by the way. Ziost, Korriban, Malachor, coupla others....that's really it...The Vong had enough people to fill up a galaxy. Of where 365 trillion is but a small percentile. How many stars can the sith blow up? How well can they do when they realize their opponents are immune to the Force? They can't touch them with their artifacts...and a relatively small empire whose entire force could only invade three worlds? Man for man, a Vong warrior could finish a Sith Lord...who'd be fighting blind and scared.

9. The MAssassi are NOTHING more than canon fodder that we saw Kirrek rebels, Republic soldiers and PRISONERS slaughtering with great ease. Against Vong who move faster than the eye can see with weapons that strange to them with their Force advantage gone? And the Vong are completely self sacrificing, unlike the Sith....those 'one hundred Sith Lords' boards their ships, the Vong will self destruct/blow it up without thinking twice.

And the Ancient Sith Empire was around.....2000 years

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. What I'm talking about is easy, Bor: Not a single Jedi fighting a Sith lord in the Hyperspace War mano a mano suffered anything more than a scar

When did they ever go toe-to-toe?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Well, Ragnos would be able to do...nothing more than make the Vong crack up, considering those force techniques don't work on Vong and the Sith couldn't be able to find them through the Force. And unless the seriously outnumbered Sith can afford to vaporize half their territory to dent the Vong. Ragnos's empire stagnated completely and fell apart upon his death, half in part to his incompetence.

Have you read NJO? The Vong can be detected though their body heat and the air they move when they walk. Also note force lightning works just fine.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. It was still Ragnos's mind and spirit. And if he knows those dark side techniques, well that would've been a nice time to use them. Every other time someone's spirit appeared in someone else's body, no flaws...and Revan the strongest in 20,000 years? Ignoring Ragnos, Exar Kun, Arca Jeth, Ulic Qel-Droma, Tott Doneeta, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Thon...

Those techniques probably require learge amounts of power. He apparently did have the necessary level of power at that point.

I'm not sure why you are talking about Revan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. That's possibly because Anakin and Yoda appeared once in wordless scenes as Force ghosts and Vergere seemed omniscient when she was a ghost to Jacen. OBi-wan was also deliberately concealing things from Luke...the Dark Woman appeared quite omniscient when she appeared as a spirit...and a funny thing about knowledge is it tends to resurface. Luke certainly got everything from Ossus thanks to several sources.

That doesn't mean things like Malachor V, the loss of most of the Dantooine artifacts, the massive loss of knowledge in the Purge didn't happen. Also note that much was lost on Ossus. Luke went back to a knowledge barren one, everything was destroyed. Don't forget that Luke was devastated by the loss of a single holocron in JA trilogy/ I, Jedi(they happened at the same time from different perspectives). The only source Luke has is the small Jedi Library that was on the Chu'uthor, but that was, like I said, small, and much more recent knowledge, meaning nothing of the Ancient Sith stuff was on it. Also note that it was very small because, as said before, later, when Luke had Vodo's holocron, he was devastated even though he still had access to the Chu'uthor library.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. You are aware there are....trillions of Vong? And all those Sith forceusers won't help a damn against the Vong. Those weapons and gauntlets can take decades to actively create.

Source? I've never heard they take huge amounts of time to make.

There are trillions of Vong though, but a single Sith could take thousands of them. Sadow could take out a star and then 50 billion Vong just died.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. You may not think Luke, Jaina/Jacen are stronger than those 'millions'.....I'd like some proof here. Jaina/Jacen and Luke do far more than any other era, are basically stated to be the top force users...

Jacen and Jaina were captured by a single TIE fighter pilot.

Anyway, even a thousand small feats means less then a few massive ones.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. At the point Luke killed a slayer with the lightning, Luke had learned to connect them through the Force thanks to Sekot...something Dark Siders CANNOT do.

Wrong, seeing as Jacen was able to do the same thing with force lightning before meating Sekot. Jacen did have Vongsense at that time, but electricity has the same effect reguardless of the opponent.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Now, the Sith would have to be detonating their OWN stars, because they CANNOT leave their own space or they risk massive invasion from the Vong, who can match them man to man-The Sith empire was maybe....ten worlds, by the way. Ziost, Korriban, Malachor, coupla others....that's really it...The Vong had enough people to fill up a galaxy. Of where 365 trillion is but a small percentile. How many stars can the sith blow up? How well can they do when they realize their opponents are immune to the Force? They can't touch them with their artifacts...and a relatively small empire whose entire force could only invade three worlds? Man for man, a Vong warrior could finish a Sith Lord...who'd be fighting blind and scared.

Their opponents are not immune. To say so is in defiance of logic. Also note that there were stated to be about 2 quadrillion people in the galaxy. 16% is note a small percentile.

If you want to go by the number of names planets, then the Vong have about 20. Fact is that the Sith were able to wage an effective war against the Republic, which had at least 1 million member worlds with a few million other colony worlds. To say the Sith have less then 500,000 worlds is in defiance of logic.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
9. The MAssassi are NOTHING more than canon fodder that we saw Kirrek rebels, Republic soldiers and PRISONERS slaughtering with great ease. Against Vong who move faster than the eye can see with weapons that strange to them with their Force advantage gone? And the Vong are completely self sacrificing, unlike the Sith....those 'one hundred Sith Lords' boards their ships, the Vong will self destruct/blow it up without thinking twice.

Note how the Massassi were extremely powerful when they were mutated by Sith Alchemy by a relatively weak user(Exar) opperating only from Naga's knowledge. Imagine a few trillion of those.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the Ancient Sith Empire was around.....2000 years

Not really. The Sith Empire has been around since before 25,000 B.B.Y. most likely since they are believed to have done a lot in bringing down the Infinite Empire. The Dark Jedi were only there for 2000 years.

Excellent points, Nai and Glentract. I couldn't have said it better myself.

1. The the Great Hyperspace war when Sadow's Sith Lords are slaughtered by a small group of Jedi?

2. In two cases and noticeably only through people who were feeling them through the Force at the time. The idea of a species that is a literal hole in the force on its own would make the Sith level of confidence go down hugely.

3. Yes, it requires so much power to do the equivalent of pressing a button on a ship...we don't know if Sadow made the thing.

4. Luke has everything prior to those, thanks to what he uncovered from OSsus. Palpatine had access to the ANCIENT Sith and all the knowledge from Bane and the Ruusan era....and that holocron was when he'd just started to build up things again...it's been a good thirty or so years since.

5. Freedon Nadd in The Naddist revolt when he gave the weapons/amulets to Satal and Aleema.

6. Jacen and Jaina were 15. By the NJO, they're in their twenties and doing a lot more...hell, they improve a lot more by the end of Darkest Night.

7. Jacen was noticeably sensing opponents through the Force. And we have other evidence that trying offensive Force techniques-LIGHTNING INCLUDED- fails...one of Tsavong Lah's captured Jedi attempts to break him with the Force or destroy him with lightning....it's impossible to hurt a Yuuzhan Vong via the Force unless you know what to do. And Dark Siders can't do it.

8. EFFECTIVE war? Read The fall of the Sith Empire. Took everything they had to attack THREE worlds.....THREE WORLDS. And they were CRUSHED. In a matter of hours. And sorry, we have a little map of the entire universe form the Chronology....the Sith Empire has no more than 10 worlds, if that wasn't confirmed by Golden Age talking about their planets...500,000 worlds? Don't be absurd. Read up on your source material, the Sith had enough to attack three worlds-canon- and were crushed-canon-and in the entire Sith space, we don't see a huge cluster of worlds, we see a small collection. The evidence is against you. The Vong have enough to populate an entire galaxy and since most Force techniques don't work on them whatsoever...no force chokes, it's been tried...force lightning when you're unconnected to the Vong...that was tried... Dark Side techniques...Welk and Lomi Plo couldn't do that...

9. Notice how the Massassi I was describing were from Sadow's conquest and being torn apart by Republic, Kirrek and random prisoners....not a very strong group of fighters, who noticeably don't move faster than the eye can see...nor do they have thud bugs or razor bugs...Or blorash jelly...or anything to really pierce Vong armor...it'd take a Sith Lord for that. Not Exar's MAssassi, Sadow's. The MAssassi belonging to the LATER Sith. Exar even gave his own twist on Sadow's design amd a few trillion? Please, the Sith Empire was small. Ragnos himself knew attacking the Republic was suicidal folly.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not really. The Sith Empire has been around since before 25,000 B.B.Y. most likely since they are believed to have done a lot in bringing down the Infinite Empire. The Dark Jedi were only there for 2000 years.

I suppose if you ignore they were peaceful primitives until the Dark JEdi arrived.....take it up with the Chronology: 7000 BBY to 5000 BBY

1. The the Great Hyperspace war when Sadow's Sith Lords are slaughtered by a small group of Jedi?

This is BS.


2. In two cases and noticeably only through people who were feeling them through the Force at the time. The idea of a species that is a literal hole in the force on its own would make the Sith level of confidence go down hugely.

You're assuming that the Sith will suffer a lack of morale because of the Vong's nature? Right.


3. Yes, it requires so much power to do the equivalent of pressing a button on a ship...we don't know if Sadow made the thing.

He just happens to own the only one in the entire series.


4. Luke has everything prior to those, thanks to what he uncovered from OSsus. Palpatine had access to the ANCIENT Sith and all the knowledge from Bane and the Ruusan era....and that holocron was when he'd just started to build up things again...it's been a good thirty or so years since.

Where is this specifically? Sources are helpful.


5. Freedon Nadd in The Naddist revolt when he gave the weapons/amulets to Satal and Aleema.

Not sure what this point is about. Skipping it.


6. Jacen and Jaina were 15. By the NJO, they're in their twenties and doing a lot more...hell, they improve a lot more by the end of Darkest Night.

And they still couldn't handle a Sith Lord who is easily many decades older, if not a century or more.


7. Jacen was noticeably sensing opponents through the Force. And we have other evidence that trying offensive Force techniques-LIGHTNING INCLUDED- fails...one of Tsavong Lah's captured Jedi attempts to break him with the Force or destroy him with lightning....it's impossible to hurt a Yuuzhan Vong via the Force unless you know what to do. And Dark Siders can't do it.

Who says they have to target the Vong? Just rip up stones and pelt them from a distance... KO.


8. EFFECTIVE war? Read The fall of the Sith Empire. Took everything they had to attack THREE worlds.....THREE WORLDS. And they were CRUSHED. In a matter of hours. And sorry, we have a little map of the entire universe form the Chronology....the Sith Empire has no more than 10 worlds, if that wasn't confirmed by Golden Age talking about their planets...500,000 worlds? Don't be absurd. Read up on your source material, the Sith had enough to attack three worlds-canon- and were crushed-canon-and in the entire Sith space, we don't see a huge cluster of worlds, we see a small collection. The evidence is against you. The Vong have enough to populate an entire galaxy and since most Force techniques don't work on them whatsoever...no force chokes, it's been tried...force lightning when you're unconnected to the Vong...that was tried... Dark Side techniques...Welk and Lomi Plo couldn't do that...


Beast Wars of Onderon:
4,000 BBY: First Battle of Onderon (end of Beast Wars)
Naddist Uprising:
3,998 BBY: Second Battle of Onderon
3,998 BBY: Third Battle of Onderon
Krath Holy Crusade (3,997-3,996 BBY):
3,997 BBY: Battle of Basilisk
3,997 BBY: First Battle of Empress Teta
3,997 BBY: Battle of Deneba
3,997 BBY: Second Battle of Empress Teta
3,997 BBY?: Battle of Ko Vari (Boonta)
3,996 BBY: Battle of Kuar
3,996 BBY: Dark Reaper Campaign
3,996 BBY: Battle of Foerost
3,996 BBY: First Battle of Coruscant
3,996 BBY: Battle of Vento
3,996 BBY: Second Battle of Coruscant
3,996 BBY: Battle of Kemplex IX
3,996 BBY: Battle of Ossus
3,996 BBY: Battle of Al'Har
3,996 BBY: Fourth Battle of Onderon
3,996 BBY: Battle of Yavin IV
3,996 BBY: Third Battle of Empress Teta

Those are all Sith War battles.


9. Notice how the Massassi I was describing were from Sadow's conquest and being torn apart by Republic, Kirrek and random prisoners....not a very strong group of fighters, who noticeably don't move faster than the eye can see...nor do they have thud bugs or razor bugs...Or blorash jelly...or anything to really pierce Vong armor...it'd take a Sith Lord for that. Not Exar's MAssassi, Sadow's. The MAssassi belonging to the LATER Sith. Exar even gave his own twist on Sadow's design amd a few trillion? Please, the Sith Empire was small. Ragnos himself knew attacking the Republic was suicidal folly.

Uh, Golden Age of the Sith Empire Comic # 0 has the original sketches of the characters, which includes Massassi warriors. I guess you're wrong, huh?

And in the narration of one of the Fall of the Sith Empire comics it is described as the "awesome Sith Empire". I suppose awesome means ten whole planets, huh? Is that how they had billions upon billions of slaves and vassals?

1. BS? In the war, we see....Momaw NAdill, old guy with beard, big Catharr guy and weird alien guy-Odan and Ooroo on another world slaughtering the MAssassi AND Sith Lords no sweat. Have you read the comic? Not a single one of the Jedi we saw fighting died. All the Sith did.

2. You mean...*GASP* React how the Jedi did, knowing that they can't sense their enemies through the force, thus crippling a large nature of their ability?!

3. It was only an ancient command ship that any Sith Lord with brains would keep for himself as a flagship or inheritance...If I were Ragnos I wouldn't give Simus a failsafe mechanism for blowing me to pieces.

4. Dark Empire'd be a biggie. And NJO. and the NJO companion.

6. You are aware JAcen became a living conduit to the Force at one point, right? Literally, everything became insignificant to him. And since they WILL be taking on the Sith in LEgacy of the Force, in their thirties...

7. Rip up stones and pelt the Vong? Yes, when the Vong are slamming moons into the Sith worlds and directing blackholes at them, that will work so well....and you are aware of the Vong durability and mentality? They train every day of their life to be able to resist such attacks and any pain...and they outnumber the Sith heavily. The Sith could outmass an army against ten percent of the Vong warrior caste....and let's see how well that tactic works...how many Sith'll stick around and give their lives against billions of Vong...

8. You'll notice not a SINGLE ONE OF THOSE BATTLES was fought by the Ancient Sith in the Great Hyperspace War?

9. Gee, one planet having billions of people...And I've seen the Massassi. Pink skinned humanoid warriors. NOT Kun's version of them. One of the largest Sith worlds managed to accumulate several thousand Massassi

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I suppose if you ignore they were peaceful primitives until the Dark JEdi arrived.....take it up with the Chronology: 7000 BBY to 5000 BBY

They still had things like Sith Alchemy. With the Ancient Sith Jedi to teach them real fast, they can fight well.

They were a useless group of primitives until the Dark Jedi came around to dominate them. The Vong'd wipe them out in moments. You realize it need never come to a group battle with the Vong? A few weapons and the Vong can turn blow superheat Ziost, slam a moon into it, pull it out of gravity...among other things

I'm not saying the Vong wont win. Read my previous post and you would know my stance. That's no longer the main point though. Now it's how much of a battle it would actually be.

It may take a few months...however, like I said, the Sith can't afford to expand after the Vong and given how selfish and self serving they are, they'd never destroy themselves to the Vong-even if they tried, it'd wipe out a small portion of the Vong.
A Vong warrior'd be the equal of a Sith warrior-given how well they fight, how fast they move, etc- and they outnumber them, what, a trillion to one? maybe a billion to one? Force techniques-or most of them-don't worth, a major advantage of the Sith is gone when they can't feel them in the Force, the Vong can just sit back in a worldship above Ziost and slam a moon down or superheat the planet-and Ziost is an icy planet, that bodes ill

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. BS? In the war, we see....Momaw NAdill, old guy with beard, big Catharr guy and weird alien guy-Odan and Ooroo on another world slaughtering the MAssassi AND Sith Lords no sweat. Have you read the comic? Not a single one of the Jedi we saw fighting died. All the Sith did.

I still wonder which "Sith Lords" you're talking about. For your information: Sith Lords are only the people that are on the governing council. As far as KotoR tells us you have 20 Sith Lords and 1 Dark Lord per generation. Now since they could make Kressh the Dark Lord while Sadow was gone there must have been at least 11 Sith Lords still at Korriban and personally I don't see any Sith Lord following Sadow into the war.



When did you develop the idea that Sith = Jedi, eh ? First "fear" being an emoition is one of the sources of their power as we all know. Second - look at them. Most Jedi we have seen so far are pretty "regular" people physically...now compare them to Sith Lords, Massasi Warriors and things like that. Those Sith are uber muscular since they handle very heavy melee weapons. Do you think they wouldn't be able to fight because they can't sense the Vong ?

As we have seen all techniques that don't require to "sense" the enemy are still working. This would include force lightning (which is a directed energy blast) all kinds of telekinetic abilities (throw stuff at the Vong which would include "saber throwing". Can you say "toasted Vong" ?



Ah...and who says they can't built more ? Somebody had to built it, right ? And that "somebody" is part of the Ancient Sith Empire...



Oh. It's nice what they "will" do. Any prove ? Or lets make a difference here: Any proof that somebody from the NJO series would be able to defeat a Sith Lords with several centuries of experience, combat training and force practice ? Imagine Yoda gone dark and throw him at Jacen / Jaina. I wonder how that fight would end...



First...the Sith have technology able to destroy stars...but they can't destroy a moon being thrown at their worlds ?
And you seem to have forgotten that not all Vong are warriors, slayers and so on. The "normal" Vong is twice as strong as a regular human warrior. Their warriors and slayers are stronger but uh...as I said...look at the Sith Lords. We're talking about people that have trained with melee weapons for decades if not centuries. They are more experienced and - by any logic - stronger than the YV's. And if some people in the NJO with less experience, less physical strength and most like less (aggressive) force power can slay dozens of Yuuzhan Vong and if 3 people are enough to kill thousands of them - I don't see the Ancient Sith Empire loosing.



You did notice that it wasn't Kun but Sadow who "mutated" the Massasi that followed him to Yavin 4 via Sith Alchemy ? And well:

http://starwars.wikicities.com/images/thumb/d/d1/200px-Massas.jpg

That "thing" on the right doesn't look weak to me...



I guess if you ignore the fact that the "Great Shism" in the Jedi Order happened in 24,500 BBY and the first Dark Jedi (exiled from Republic space) reached the Sith worlds in 24,400 BBY you could talk about "2000 years". Using the real information you have 24,400 BBY - 5000 BBY and if you count Sadow's suspended animation period you would come to 24,400 BBY - 4,400 BBY which means you would have exactly 20,000 years and not 2000.

1. Yes, that's who I'm talking about. One of the ones we saw Momaw fighting was named, the leader of the assault on Coruscant. As well as two others we saw in council on Coruscant and S-something who Ooroo killed.

2. You're right, the Sith'd probably react a great deal worse, given their dominating view of the world. Here's something else: Force lightning from the dark side does NOT work: In all cases when it did, it was used via lightside to those sensing the Vong, however temporarily. Some people tried using telekenisis on the Vong, and Force Lightning...it didn't work at all. And since the Ancient Sith hardly ever used Lightsabers....and the Sith were hardly a physically imposing group themselves. Ludo Kressh was downright scrawny and Naga was hardly built well. The Force does wonders for fighting ability-the Massassi were a race bred entirely for war, and they did horribly against the Jedi-Jori Daragon killed a small squadron of them, she being a pilot who'd just gotten a saber-....and the Vong tend to be very tall, extremely muscular creatures.

3. Can they build before or after the Vong're attacking them? The process takes a long time, and that'd be just to BUILD the damn ship, let alone empower it. They literally had to lay that thing down piece by piece with the Sith slaves and Massassi...the process'd take years and they don't have years.

4. Yes, considering it's been confirmed Lumiya with someone getting her back returns in Legacy of the Force...as for Yoda turning dark, let's just make Jacen that living conduit to the entire, living, unifying Force again when every living thing is little more than an ant...or Luke who moves star destroyers and stars and moves black holes....the Ancient sith can't compare to him, not by a long shot. Nor to Jacen and Jaina'd who become momentuously powerful at that point? And in a military fight, the Sith'd be destroyed. Not to mention the average Jedi was the match of an average Vong. One of those 'mighty warriors' was killed by a young Jedi adviser. In a lightsaber duel. We're also talking of a people that's totally reliant on fighting through the Force. and more experienced? The Vong have been warring and destroying since long before and long after the Sith Empire. From the Cremlevian War to the galactic civil war, they hadn't stopped fighting in their entire history until they lost the final war to the Republic.

5. Considering their superweapon focuses on manipulating solar flares into a chain reaction....no, I really don't think they could destroy moons hurtled at Ziost, which'd hit them within minutes. And the Yuuzhan Vong lived for centuries. Tsavong Lah was three hundred or so, Czulkang was massively older than that...and the 'average' Vong is twice as strong as a tough human. The warrior Yuuzhan Vong'd be even stronger than that. and when the Ancient Sith number in the zillions and move faster than the eye can see...militarily, the Ancient Sith didn't have the numbers to take on Koros Major, Kirrek and Coruscant....the Vong had the numbers to take half the galaxy over. And then some. And the Shapers could pose a massive issue for the Sith...and if the Sith tried some illusions like Naga sadow did, wha do you think the end result would be? A BIGGER flood of a religious fanatically selfless race throwing themselves at the Sith armies? The entire point of Sith illusions was to discourage opponents and to such a race, that won't work, especially when you can't project illusions into their minds

6. That thing on the right was the result of an evolved Massassi. Sadow had little to do with their devolutions. They evolved that way on their own, into primitives over a thousand years-the dark side had a lot to do with it, but it was stated in DlotS that they'd devolved into the things we saw...And once again, that thing on the right wasn't too impressive....Sylvar killed about five of them with her bare hands. By the end of everything, they'd forgotten most of their entire history until Kun arrived.

7. The Great Schism has been irritatingly retconned. The Sith Empire was started in 7000 BBY now. We have two thousand years of a Sith Empire, and believe me, this pisses me off. In the New Essential Chronology, under the Battle of Corbos, it stated that the empire was founded in 7000 BBY. And the official stance now seems the Skwalkers are the strongest Jedi group, Luke being the strongest force user ever. And it's been said we're seeing the Sith again in Legacy and more than Lumiya, and since Luke's been making inroads to checking out the Sith worlds...he even helped the former Night Beast find Ziost

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. You're right, the Sith'd probably react a great deal worse, given their dominating view of the world. Here's something else: Force lightning from the dark side does NOT work: In all cases when it did, it was used via lightside to those sensing the Vong, however temporarily. Some people tried using telekenisis on the Vong, and Force Lightning...it didn't work at all. And since the Ancient Sith hardly ever used Lightsabers....and the Sith were hardly a physically imposing group themselves. Ludo Kressh was downright scrawny and Naga was hardly built well. The Force does wonders for fighting ability-the Massassi were a race bred entirely for war, and they did horribly against the Jedi-Jori Daragon killed a small squadron of them, she being a pilot who'd just gotten a saber-....and the Vong tend to be very tall, extremely muscular creatures.

Ludo Kressh was able to shatter Sith Swords with his bare hands. Sith swords were stronger then blast doors.

When did someone ever try using lightning and it didn't work on the Vong?

Vong are about 6'3 and 215 pounds or so, judging from pictures of them. Stronger then a human, but a Sith would pwn them in physical combat. A Massassi would too.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Can they build before or after the Vong're attacking them? The process takes a long time, and that'd be just to BUILD the damn ship, let alone empower it. They literally had to lay that thing down piece by piece with the Sith slaves and Massassi...the process'd take years and they don't have years.

Prove that the process takes a long time. Ships can be built in hours if necessary. Hell, Nasa could big a space capable ship in less then a week if they really needed too.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Yes, considering it's been confirmed Lumiya with someone getting her back returns in Legacy of the Force...as for Yoda turning dark, let's just make Jacen that living conduit to the entire, living, unifying Force again when every living thing is little more than an ant...or Luke who moves star destroyers and stars and moves black holes....the Ancient sith can't compare to him, not by a long shot. Nor to Jacen and Jaina'd who become momentuously powerful at that point? And in a military fight, the Sith'd be destroyed. Not to mention the average Jedi was the match of an average Vong. One of those 'mighty warriors' was killed by a young Jedi adviser. In a lightsaber duel. We're also talking of a people that's totally reliant on fighting through the Force. and more experienced? The Vong have been warring and destroying since long before and long after the Sith Empire. From the Cremlevian War to the galactic civil war, they hadn't stopped fighting in their entire history until they lost the final war to the Republic.

No, the Vong never fought on their ships. All experince prior to that doesn't matter, since anyone from then would be long dead. Note that all of the Ancient Sith carried swords with them.

We've shown that Sadow is stronger then Luke when he is using his ship. If Ragnos was using one, he'd be pwning Vong left and right.

The Ancient Sith were said to make later Jedi look like children playing with toys.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Considering their superweapon focuses on manipulating solar flares into a chain reaction....no, I really don't think they could destroy moons hurtled at Ziost, which'd hit them within minutes. And the Yuuzhan Vong lived for centuries. Tsavong Lah was three hundred or so, Czulkang was massively older than that...and the 'average' Vong is twice as strong as a tough human. The warrior Yuuzhan Vong'd be even stronger than that. and when the Ancient Sith number in the zillions and move faster than the eye can see...militarily, the Ancient Sith didn't have the numbers to take on Koros Major, Kirrek and Coruscant....the Vong had the numbers to take half the galaxy over. And then some. And the Shapers could pose a massive issue for the Sith...and if the Sith tried some illusions like Naga sadow did, wha do you think the end result would be? A BIGGER flood of a religious fanatically selfless race throwing themselves at the Sith armies? The entire point of Sith illusions was to discourage opponents and to such a race, that won't work, especially when you can't project illusions into their minds

The Vong took much less then half of the galaxy, look at a map. Also note that force users were considered gods by most of the Vong. Weaker ones like Ganner and Anakin made them revolt, imagine what Ragnos would do. We're talking massive uprisings.

Also note weapons like the Reaper or whatever it was called. It could strip a moon bare in minutes. The Sith could have made dozens of these, but didn't because they wanted to conquer, not destroy. If facing extinction, they would change their mind.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. That thing on the right was the result of an evolved Massassi. Sadow had little to do with their devolutions. They evolved that way on their own, into primitives over a thousand years-the dark side had a lot to do with it, but it was stated in DlotS that they'd devolved into the things we saw...And once again, that thing on the right wasn't too impressive....Sylvar killed about five of them with her bare hands. By the end of everything, they'd forgotten most of their entire history until Kun arrived.

But Kun made them really strong later with only what Naga had.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. The Great Schism has been irritatingly retconned. The Sith Empire was started in 7000 BBY now. We have two thousand years of a Sith Empire, and believe me, this pisses me off. In the New Essential Chronology, under the Battle of Corbos, it stated that the empire was founded in 7000 BBY. And the official stance now seems the Skwalkers are the strongest Jedi group, Luke being the strongest force user ever. And it's been said we're seeing the Sith again in Legacy and more than Lumiya, and since Luke's been making inroads to checking out the Sith worlds...he even helped the former Night Beast find Ziost

Seems to be the strongest? Put a cork on the BS.

Note that there have been several major Schisms. There was one that happened circa 25,000 BBY and another that happened 7000 BBY. Both worked with the Sith people.

Oh and sorry about the triple post, but about Naga being weak, just do a quick google search for 'Naga Sadow' go look at the pictures then tell me that he is scrawny and the massassi are weak.

Lomi and Welk were quite noticeably using amplifications to their own weapons and killing Voxyn with the Force. And the book said, in no uncertain terms that it was impossible to use force lightning on Vong-doesn't take much to use Force Lightning, Quinlan Vos did it out of simple anger- or telekinisis on him.

Unless Tsavong'd be fighting them in an office-Jacen had a MASSIVE advantage in that fight: The Force itself was literally guiding him- and he's fighting enemies the Force'd favor...I also doubt in a big fight like that, there'd be an open window....Vong take to smack very heavily and small projectiles out of the air easily and respond with razor and thud bugs...and they HEAVILY outnumber the Sith.

And you'll notice that Ragnos is in NO FREAKING WAY stronger than Luke. Luke's NJO stats are one detail, RPG stats matter in no way to the story's another thing0I could provide numerous examples there, numerous.-And Luke is called in no uncertain terms the strongest Force User. Hell, Luceno said that's what he was striving for. They even got the go ahead from Lucas for that-this being in SW Insider.

And noone ever said Ragnos was weak. The Sith heeded one prophecy of his as he was connected to the Dark Side and Exar Kun knew exactly who Ragnos was: He'd seen his remains on Korriban.

Darkstar, I respect you heavily, but have you ever read on Luke's strength? What so called powers did Ragnos use? Luke wouldn't know of them? Luke has holocrons dating back to the Ancient Empire-Andeddu? Vodo Baas? among others. Luke crushed DE era Sidious and that was well over thirty years away from Legacy of the Force, where Luke has achieved a level much higher than any other in the galaxy. Hell, it's even been hinted Luke will be cleaning up the Ancients on Korriban

Edge of Victory. Force Lightning tried on Vong. Didn't work. And Glentract? Drop this Sith bias. Because HUMAN Jedi slaughtered Massassi savagely. a HUMAN Jedi killed one of the twenty Sith Lords in a straight up duel. Do Sith move faster than the eye can follow? Can they lift solid durasteel? No? Ok then. Is Nasa the Sith? Will the Sith have weeks to make a cruiser bigger and more advanced than anything our world has with Massassi laying it out one stone at a time? Think the Vong are gonna sit around having tea?

With what Naga had? Exar changed the designs in quite a few places.

And yeah, that's official stance on it. Show me a single thing to shoot it down. If you can, of course...or anything to suggest the Sith-massively outnumbered, mind you- would even dent the Vong...

And 'both worked with the Sith people?' The first Great schism involved Xendor....no Sith involved at all.

And Dark Star? Look to the pictures of the Hyperspace battle and see the Republic average joes and Jedi killing the Massassi. See Jori Daragon killing a group of them no sweat.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Yes, that's who I'm talking about. One of the ones we saw Momaw fighting was named, the leader of the assault on Coruscant. As well as two others we saw in council on Coruscant and S-something who Ooroo killed.

So you're saying because Sith Lords were defeated by Jedi Masters they must be weak ?!



Oh come on...you reall think they'd immediatly panic because "oh my god...I can't sense those things through the force..." ?



That's great. The Vong can't be sensed - yet some people sensed them and Force Lightning from the Dark Side does not work - which you know of course, because we had so many Sith Lords running around and fighting Vong in the NJO series. And the people who invented force lightning and practiced that stuff for decades or centuries would be worse using it compared to the NJO Jedi...



Oh. For force lightning see above. For telekenisis: It didn't work ? They tried to throw things at them and the things stopped in the air ? I must have missed that scene. And a Sith sword can also be thrown. You don't need a lightsaber...



LOL. Great. All Sith Lords are champion warriors and if you consider the weight and size of the weapons they are wielding they have to be physically strong. And if you have a careful look at the comics they might be "scawny" (not exactly what I would call them) but every bit of their body you can see is basically sheer muscles. And they need them handling weapons like they do...



The force does wonder for fighting ability - yet the Sith Lords have equal force powers compared to Jedi Master (but more agressive ones) and they have more physical strength.



It's nice how you make an assumption of yours a fact. Do you know how much time it takes them to built such a relative small ship ? Sidious could built a Death Star in less than 4 years. And considering the fact that the Ancient Sith have control over the Star Forge they can duplicate the ship in the matter of minutes...



Man...since when is Lumiya an Ancient Sith Lord ?
And that assumption you make - really. Who should buy that ?
Sith and Jedi (average) are basically equal yet the Dark Side give the Sith an edge over a Jedi because of agressive force powers.
Now saying a "young Jedi adviser" killed somebody does say exactly nothing...was the "young Jedi adviser" especially powerful ? A lightsaber prodigy ? Zett Jukassa in ROTS killed 5 or 6 Clone Troopers when Ki-Adi-Mundi was killed by 4. Still Ki-Adi is the Council Member and Zett was a Padawan. That does say nothing.

And may I remind you that the Ancient Sith did constantly fight each other to gain power and that they had an extreme long life.
Also think of Sion who kept his body together with sheer willpower or Vader who did manage to survive a nice lava bath with sheer willpower...I don't see any Vong managing to do that...



Considering the fact that Aleema Keto used that superweapon to "throw" the core of a star changing the direction a moon flies to doesn't seem to be impossible...



And even more assumptions and tons of ignored details. The Sith were fighting an entire Order of Jedi Knights. We're talking about 10000s of Jedi which weren't present in NJO times.
Now if pretty "average" force user in the NJO series can take out dozens or hundrets of Vong - what would a Sith Lord do with force lightning that will most likely work against Vong ?
And the Illusions aren't created in the minds of opponents. They are just created. Read the Black Fleet series - Luke uses the same technique to make a planet invisible and I'm pretty sure he can't manipulate the mind of any person coming close to the planet for an infinite amount of time. Technically somebody like Sadow can walk around on some planet create 90 illusions that look like himself and start fighting. How much time do you think would a Vong need to find the right Sadow ?



You assume that Sylvar would be an average Jedi and therefore the Massasi must suck. On the same level I can say Vong slayers suck because Luke took down 8 of them at once and normal Vong / Vong soldiers suck even worse because being less powerful since Luke, Jacen and Jaina wasted thousands of them and even Kyp took down massive numbers.



I personally don't care about what WotC assumes to be true (which the New Essential Chronology uses at source). Fact is that the ancient Sith didn't know lightsabers. Fact is that Vima Da Boda hands Luke (or Leia ?) a lightsaber from Ossus which was about 10,000 years old in DE. So it makes no sense to have the Sith Empire started before 10,000 BBY. And we know that the Great Shism happened 24,400 years BBY (Xendor) and there is no way to change it at least not for WotC since that number was installed by Lucas Art and they have the greater authority when it comes to "Dates in Star Wars".

And I won't argue that the Skywalkers are the strongest Jedi groups since there is no way to be stronger with the force. But that statement isn't talking about Sith. And Luke Skywalker can be the strongest force user ever - is he the best fighter ever too ?

The RPG stats are Lucas approved. Wanna argue them ? I hate WotC for creating them but you use things from WotC to back up your arguments and so you have to accept that other people do that too which means that a living Ragnos would be more powerful than NJO Luke.

And "the strongest force user" ? Ever ? Alive at that time ? The strongest Jedi ? And Lucas gave his "go ahead" to stuff like the CW cartoons and the WotC RPG either. Do you realize how less he actually cares about the EU since it doesn't affect his "movie universe" ?

1. Masters? Memit was hardly even a knight and he killed the Sith Lord Sadow put in charge of invading Coruscant.

2. Well, considering they depend on it completely and utterly....yeah, they'd panic more than a bit.

3. According to the EU, Sidious had the frameworks for the other one in construction already. Took him twenty or so years just to make one. And the Ancient Sith-with FAR inferior technology to Palpatine-have no time at all...and Star Forge? Rakta's nowhere near Ziost.

4. Lumiya's only been on Ziost and Korriban, getting training from the Ancients. And Denau Ku kept himself alive with nothing more than willpower to kill Viqi Shesh after being impaled with.....three feet of steel. And Anakin's hatred for Obi-wan did wonders for him. Or Onimi who kept himself alive through hatred for the Gods.

5. Gee, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING maybe? Since darkside abilities are shown to not make a dent in the Vong, illusions won't have any effect on Vong psychology...What part of 'can't be directly affected in the Force' is hard to get here? and 10s of thousands? Which is why we saw....six Jedi fighting Sadow's glorious invasion force and doing a hell of a job of it. And Sadow'd need to concentrate to create any sort of illusion. The Vong'll notice him kneeling...and vong tend to not be intimidated no matter the odds.

6. And Sylvar ever showed herself to be anything special whatsoever?

7. One of those sabers Vima da-Boda gave Luke was a relic from Ossus we saw Ood Bnar burying....he said, and I quote, "Some of the first the ORder ever created." And the first Great Schism was Xendor's. The second was the Hundred year Darkness in 7000 BBY. I don't like it either, but it's in the continuity.

And Luke as the best fighter? Yes.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lomi and Welk were quite noticeably using amplifications to their own weapons and killing Voxyn with the Force. And the book said, in no uncertain terms that it was impossible to use force lightning on Vong-doesn't take much to use Force Lightning, Quinlan Vos did it out of simple anger- or telekinisis on him.

When did it ever say that. If you can't provide a page number, this it is unproven and can be disreguarded as BS.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unless Tsavong'd be fighting them in an office-Jacen had a MASSIVE advantage in that fight: The Force itself was literally guiding him- and he's fighting enemies the Force'd favor...I also doubt in a big fight like that, there'd be an open window....Vong take to smack very heavily and small projectiles out of the air easily and respond with razor and thud bugs...and they HEAVILY outnumber the Sith.

Now, because we saw what Mace did in the CW with his surroundings and the force. CW characters can't really do that, but Ancient Sith were plenty strong enough. A grain of sand propelled to five thousands miles per hour will cut you in half, Vong or not.

Also note that the Sith can control the water in the Yuuzhan Vong body. They can pick them up by the water in their bodies and throw them hundreds of feet into the air. Instant death.

Note that the force guides all living beings, Jacen just did it to a very high, but not unheard of, level.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And you'll notice that Ragnos is in NO FREAKING WAY stronger than Luke. Luke's NJO stats are one detail, RPG stats matter in no way to the story's another thing0I could provide numerous examples there, numerous.-And Luke is called in no uncertain terms the strongest Force User. Hell, Luceno said that's what he was striving for. They even got the go ahead from Lucas for that-this being in SW Insider.

Please stop acting like you have talked to the authors. No one wants to hear you BS false quotes because you are lying, or at least effectively lying, until you can provide an official source that shows exactly what you have said that the author said. I want the exact SW Insider issue it was said it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Darkstar, I respect you heavily, but have you ever read on Luke's strength? What so called powers did Ragnos use? Luke wouldn't know of them? Luke has holocrons dating back to the Ancient Empire-Andeddu? Vodo Baas? among others. Luke crushed DE era Sidious and that was well over thirty years away from Legacy of the Force, where Luke has achieved a level much higher than any other in the galaxy. Hell, it's even been hinted Luke will be cleaning up the Ancients on Korriban

Hinted at, but unproven. Untill then, besides the fact that the Ancients are all dead, Luke hasn't been cleaning them up, nor will he be.

Thankyou for dodgin my arguements on this. Post-Ancient Sith wore armor. His clothes don't mean he was a Sith from Ancient times. The fact that his name is Darth Andeddu means after Darth Bane, thousands of years after the Ancients.

Luke learned little from Vodo's holocron as he only had it for a few months before Exar destroyed it.

Prove that Luke has achieved this super-high level of force mastery with official sources. You quote a book, you give a page number. You use a picture from a book, you scan it. You quote an author, you show the official source that you got the quote from. You quote an official site, you give the page number. Until then your arguments are worthless.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The RPG stats are Lucas approved. Wanna argue them ? I hate WotC for creating them but you use things from WotC to back up your arguments and so you have to accept that other people do that too which means that a living Ragnos would be more powerful than NJO Luke.

And "the strongest force user" ? Ever ? Alive at that time ? The strongest Jedi ? And Lucas gave his "go ahead" to stuff like the CW cartoons and the WotC RPG either. Do you realize how less he actually cares about the EU since it doesn't affect his "movie universe" ?

I don't use WOTC RPG stats. And Lucas approved? Which is why they have a disclaimer in the opening covers? The story stuff is in the continuity, stats are not....otherwhise Crado has great dexterity than DE Luke.

And yeah, Ever. And Lucas actually gave QUITE the damn about Luke, his power and constant survival. Lucas gave his go ahead to the Tales books as well, most of which are apocrpyha

Crack open Edge of Victory and read to where just before that little Twi'lek is tortured to death. And unlike you, I can at least provide sources for my arguments, Glentract.

And this 'grain of sand' will be launched how exactly? When did the Sith ever display that precision or patience? And water in the Vong bodies? Your turn for a soruce. Please, if it were that easy the Jedi'd have crushed them long before hand.

Which is why Jacen is described as a living conduit and connected completely to the Force? Why Onimi becomes as insignificant as a bug?

And lying? That's funny, considering you've never provided a single source for your arguments. Anything to say about that SW.com link, Glentract?

And yeah, all DARTHS came after Bane...like Revan. And Malak. And Rivan. And Traya...Name ONE Bane era Sith who wore armor like that. Just one. Who was entombed on Korriban and had a Holocron.

Fine. NJO sourcebook for Luke. Read it and find it yourself. I love it when I get called a liar by people who consistently rehash arguments. Name a single feat that even compares to what Luke does. And by the by: Considering you tried to claim Anakin Solo helped Luke against Palpatine, you shouldn't talk.

And exar destroyed BODO Baas's Holocron...two entirely different people right there.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Masters? Memit was hardly even a knight and he killed the Sith Lord Sadow put in charge of invading Coruscant.

As I said the "position" of a force user doens't say something about his actual force power or lightsaber abilities...



Yeah. Because they have no eyes to see enemies...they can't even move without sensing their enemies throught the force...come on.



Go and play KotoR. Go and visit Ajunta Pall. Ancient Sith Empire had control over the Star Forge. Argue it back and forth...as long as you have nothing that contradicts this statement - and there is nothing that does it - the Ancient Sith Empire had control over the Star Forge.



Oh...he was impaled. Sion had not a single intact bone in his body and he was happily running around alive. Simus was beheaded and kept himself alive in a jar for more than a century. Anything compareable seen in the lines of the Vong ? No ? Thought so...



Make Sadow create illusions for every other Sith Lord present and they might notice a kneeling Sadow (with 99 kneeling duplicates) while the rest of the Sith unleash their fury on them...



Yeah. She killed 5 Massasi warriors. Must be strong though...haha.



The first shism is what matters. Don't you get it ? The Dark Jedi from the first shism were exiled from Republic space and went to the space that later became the Sith Empire. Must be hard to understand the continuity when it doesn't fit your arguments.



Proof ? Thanks.

1. He was certainly not a master. Memit and Odan were very young. Odan was still a padawan to Ooroo.

2. Certainly cripples them more than a bit. All their talks of 'feeling their foes'

3. Proof it wasn't just the Corbos group that had it? Where was it when Marka was around? Or Sadow? Would've been mighty helpful when he was getting whooped by the Republic....

4. Happily running around? Denua stayed alive just to kill Viqi and died when she killed herself. And SImus was a Dark Lord Marka bested. When the average run of the mill can do that....

5. Before or after the Sith get a flurry of razor and thud bugs to the face? Or before the Vong just decide to destroy the world?

6. Or the complete ineptitude of the Massassi who Republic soldiers and Jedi were slaughtering...

7. And according to the NEC, that first schism ended when Xendor died...no exiles until Corbos

8. Name another fighter who kills eight elite warriors in seconds. Thanks.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't use WOTC RPG stats.


You do use the Essential Guides and those contain information being created for the WotC SW RPG. So you use "stuff from WotC".



The point is that Ragnos is an powerful individual which did fight and use the force for centuries while Luke - as powerful as he is - did only have 30 years of training.
And now tell me what you want to argue about the stats ?

Luke's abilities in NJO:
Affect Mind: Luke > Ragnos
Battlemind: Ragnos > Luke (logical because he was constantly fighting other force users were Luke wasn't)
Empathy: Ragnos doesn't even have some...
Enhance Ability: Ragnos > Luke... only logical...
Enhance Senses: Never seen Ragnos using that...
Farseeing: Not used by Ragnos
Force Defence: Ragnos > Luke (again logical since Ragnos kept an entire Empire of force users under his belt were Luke didn't have to do the same)
Heal Self: Not used by Ragnos
Move Object: They are equal...
See Force: Ragnos > Luke because of more experience
Telepathy: Ragnos > Luke again more experience
Alchemy: Since when does Luke practice Sith Alchemy ?
Control Mind: Again nothing Luke would use...

And for the feats: I don't see Luke raging around or use Sith swords / Sith powers (drain force, drain life)...so ?



Yeah. Lucas who - according to himself - doesn't even read the EU stories keeps an eye on everything...of course only then when you need him to do that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Crack open Edge of Victory and read to where just before that little Twi'lek is tortured to death. And unlike you, I can at least provide sources for my arguments, Glentract.

Which Edge of Victory, 1 or 2?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And this 'grain of sand' will be launched how exactly? When did the Sith ever display that precision or patience? And water in the Vong bodies? Your turn for a soruce. Please, if it were that easy the Jedi'd have crushed them long before hand.

Read Destiny's Way, the Jedi could have wiped all the Vong but chose not to because they didn't want a genocide on their hands. Alpha Red.

They have showed it by their many feats which put them above people like Jacen or Luke in force mastery who did the same thing.

Let me put it another way.

They have instakilled Jedi Masters with their force powers which were enhanced by artifacts. These Jedi Masters have been shown to be able to block blaster bolts with their hands. They had to used significantly more power then what comes from a Winchester Rifle to do this, meaning they have the power to do such. See, logic. It's an easy concept.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is why Jacen is described as a living conduit and connected completely to the Force? Why Onimi becomes as insignificant as a bug?

Let me go check. I don't see where it ever said Onmi became as insignificant as a bug. Let me look again. Nope, not it there.

Note that all force users are conduits of the force, as it has been said in mutiple sources, including your beloved ROTS Novelization.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And lying? That's funny, considering you've never provided a single source for your arguments. Anything to say about that SW.com link, Glentract?

Don't try to dodge the point, face up to it. You need to provide sources for your points, something I have done a lot, or I let other people do it, as they have already shown the evidence for the argoument I am using before my post.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And yeah, all DARTHS came after Bane...like Revan. And Malak. And Rivan. And Traya...Name ONE Bane era Sith who wore armor like that. Just one. Who was entombed on Korriban and had a Holocron.

Bane had the armor. It's also not like being entombed on Korriban was that hard after the Ancient Sith left, the Reborn were all over the place.

Note that Revan, Malak, Bandon, and Traya are reguarded as EU inconsistentcies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fine. NJO sourcebook for Luke. Read it and find it yourself. I love it when I get called a liar by people who consistently rehash arguments. Name a single feat that even compares to what Luke does. And by the by: Considering you tried to claim Anakin Solo helped Luke against Palpatine, you shouldn't talk.

Go crack open the Essential Guides and go find it youself. I can play that game too. Doesn't work, especially since I have showed to people who have been around he for a long time that I am a reputable source. Something, I might add, you haven't done with the majority.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And exar destroyed BODO Baas's Holocron...two entirely different people right there.

You can talk to IKC about this. They are the same one.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You do use the Essential Guides and those contain information being created for the WotC SW RPG. So you use "stuff from WotC".



The point is that Ragnos is an powerful individual which did fight and use the force for centuries while Luke - as powerful as he is - did only have 30 years of training.
And now tell me what you want to argue about the stats ?

Luke's abilities in NJO:
Affect Mind: Luke > Ragnos
Battlemind: Ragnos > Luke (logical because he was constantly fighting other force users were Luke wasn't)
Empathy: Ragnos doesn't even have some...
Enhance Ability: Ragnos > Luke... only logical...
Enhance Senses: Never seen Ragnos using that...
Farseeing: Not used by Ragnos
Force Defence: Ragnos > Luke (again logical since Ragnos kept an entire Empire of force users under his belt were Luke didn't have to do the same)
Heal Self: Not used by Ragnos
Move Object: They are equal...
See Force: Ragnos > Luke because of more experience
Telepathy: Ragnos > Luke again more experience
Alchemy: Since when does Luke practice Sith Alchemy ?
Control Mind: Again nothing Luke would use...

And for the feats: I don't see Luke raging around or use Sith swords / Sith powers (drain force, drain life)...so ?



Yeah. Lucas who - according to himself - doesn't even read the EU stories keeps an eye on everything...of course only then when you need him to do that.

Considering Lucas read and loved Dark Empire and they had to run a lot from the Thrawn trilogy and NJO by him...

And being in the Essential guide, info goes beyond WOTC. My point is, history is not RPG stats.

And Ragnos wasn't doing much 'fighting' with other force users. Luke's fought plenty of Dark Jedi.

And so Luke had thirty years, so? In six of that, he was creaitng illusions of fleets and moving black holes. He's still expressed more power than any Sith before him

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Which Edge of Victory, 1 or 2?



Read Destiny's Way, the Jedi could have wiped all the Vong but chose not to because they didn't want a genocide on their hands. Alpha Red.

They have showed it by their many feats which put them above people like Jacen or Luke in force mastery who did the same thing.

Let me put it another way.

They have instakilled Jedi Masters with their force powers which were enhanced by artifacts. These Jedi Masters have been shown to be able to block blaster bolts with their hands. They had to used significantly more power then what comes from a Winchester Rifle to do this, meaning they have the power to do such. See, logic. It's an easy concept.



Let me go check. I don't see where it ever said Onmi became as insignificant as a bug. Let me look again. Nope, not it there.

Note that all force users are conduits of the force, as it has been said in mutiple sources, including your beloved ROTS Novelization.



Don't try to dodge the point, face up to it. You need to provide sources for your points, something I have done a lot, or I let other people do it, as they have already shown the evidence for the argoument I am using before my post.



Bane had the armor. It's also not like being entombed on Korriban was that hard after the Ancient Sith left, the Reborn were all over the place.

Note that Revan, Malak, Bandon, and Traya are reguarded as EU inconsistentcies.



Go crack open the Essential Guides and go find it youself. I can play that game too. Doesn't work, especially since I have showed to people who have been around he for a long time that I am a reputable source. Something, I might add, you haven't done with the majority.



You can talk to IKC about this. They are the same one.

1. Name a single feat. Name a Jedi master 'instakilled' by the Ancient Empire. Just the ANCIENT Era mind you....

2. I was paraphrasing on Onimi. It makes a direct reference to him being along the lines of 'nothing' and 'insignificant.'

3. Name a single conduit to the force who was half as correct as Jacen there. Oh, wait, they didn't exist?

4. Waaaait, so I have to provide sources but you can let others do it for you?

5. Bane didn't wear armor...he used those parasitic creatures...orb-something: http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/images/editorials/bane_top.jpg
Bit fuzzy, but....where's the Sith style armor?

6. Revan and the gang are no longer inconsistencies. They've been worked in completely.

Anyways, I'm getting a bit tired of MB debate.

If anyone wants to continue this via IM, reach me at:
AIM: Debnath
MSN: [email protected]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering Lucas read and loved Dark Empire and they had to run a lot from the Thrawn trilogy and NJO by him...

Proof?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And being in the Essential guide, info goes beyond WOTC. My point is, history is not RPG stats.

How does this effect Ragnos being stronger then Luke?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Ragnos wasn't doing much 'fighting' with other force users. Luke's fought plenty of Dark Jedi.

The entire Sith Order hated him and plenty of people would have tried to take his position during his 100+ years of rule.

Luke fought 10, maybe 15. Ragnos would have fought hundreds easily.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And so Luke had thirty years, so? In six of that, he was creaitng illusions of fleets and moving black holes. He's still expressed more power than any Sith before him

Destroying stars is at least as impressive as manipulation black holes, especially considering that Kyp Durron did the same thing more easily and, here's the killer, it wasn't a real black hole. It was a Dovin Basal. A fake used by the Vong to as shields. Generated by Vong ships. So much for Luke controlling real black holes. Source: I believe it was in the Dark Tide books.

Luke was extremely drained after creating an illusion of a single ship in DN1. Sadow made illusions of entire fleets mutiple times and was never stated as being very weak afterward. Source:TOTJ comics.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He was certainly not a master. Memit and Odan were very young. Odan was still a padawan to Ooroo.


Mace Windu created his own lightsaber style in the age of 13 and nobody except Yoda and Dooku ever bested him with a lightsaber. So again: What does age and position say about skill ?



Why would it cripple them at all and even "certainly" ? They are warriors using to fight although they enchance their abilites using the force - why do you think they need to sense people in order to fight them ?



Why would the map to the SF would get burried in the tomb that was built to honor Sadow if nobody has seen the SF for 2000 years ? And were talking about the entire Ancient Sith Empire meaning if Ajunta Pall had control over it it's there for this battle.



I was talking about Sion who was running around an killing people for years without having a single intact bone in his body. And yes...Simus was a Dark Lord and he used Sith magic to do what he did. Sion however was none of the ancient Sith Lords and Vader after being a "dark sider" for a few hours wasn't too...still both survived huge amounts of physical damage with sheer willpower because they were force users.



I love how I have to type "Now a example is following" before everything I write to have you understand it. Let a party of 50 Sith Lords board a YV ship and use illusions to cover them. Could be quite effective...



I wonder how non force users with melee weapons would manage to do the same...



I wonder how you gonna explain the existance of Arden Lyn...



Name another fighter that needed to kill eight elite warriors in seconds.

1. From SW.com: "In 1999, Chewbacca became the first major character in the Star Wars films to be killed off in the Expanded Universe, when R.A. Salvatore's Vector Prime, the first entry in the New Jedi Order series, depicted him being crushed by Dobido, one of two moons of Sernpidal. This caused great resentment among some fans, including at least one death threat, despite the fact that the idea originated with Randy Stradley, and confirmed by Lucas well before Salvatore was even signed on to the series."

"According to author Timothy Zahn, Joruus C'baoth was originally supposed to be a mad clone of Obi-Wan (Ben) Kenobi, but was forced to change it when LucasFilm did not agree."

That Lucas loved DE is common knowledge, as much that as he hates the holiday special.

Proof ragnos touched a Sith other than Simus. Come on. Proof.

And did Kyp move a dovin Basal in Dark Tide? Luke moved several blackholes to destroy the carrier beasts the YV were using. And Luke weak? Proof now. He never showed any weakness after creating the ships and managed to create a long lasting sith illusion to Leia and the gang. And when you reach that Luke couldn't manipulate Vong tech with the force...either he was manipulating black holes or manipulating massive amounts of gravity.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Name a single feat. Name a Jedi master 'instakilled' by the Ancient Empire. Just the ANCIENT Era mind you....

Name one instakilled by Luke.

Also note that Exar feared the Ancient Sith spirits and could do it. Logic states that if someone who is far weaker then someone can do something, the stronger person should be able to do the same because the feat itself requires great strength.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. I was paraphrasing on Onimi. It makes a direct reference to him being along the lines of 'nothing' and 'insignificant.'

It says something more along the lines of less threatening by the moment. Nothing is never hinted at.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Name a single conduit to the force who was half as correct as Jacen there. Oh, wait, they didn't exist?

Prove that Jacen was above everyone else to begin with, then I will do my part.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Waaaait, so I have to provide sources but you can let others do it for you?

If you have other people who have provided the same evidence, show it to me and we can move onward. For me to repost it would be almost as redundant as these arguments.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Bane didn't wear armor...he used those parasitic creatures...orb-something: http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/images/editorials/bane_top.jpg
Bit fuzzy, but....where's the Sith style armor?

Which was stated as forming and armor on him. Also note that people like the Jensaari and the Nightsisters also wore armor and they were not Ancients. The fact that he is mentioned as Darth means more then me not knowing exactly where he got his armor.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
. Revan and the gang are no longer inconsistencies. They've been worked in completely.

Them having the name Darth is. Notice that they aren't Ancients either. Name one Ancient named Darth.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Mace Windu created his own lightsaber style in the age of 13 and nobody except Yoda and Dooku ever bested him with a lightsaber. So again: What does age and position say about skill ?



Why would it cripple them at all and even "certainly" ? They are warriors using to fight although they enchance their abilites using the force - why do you think they need to sense people in order to fight them ?



Why would the map to the SF would get burried in the tomb that was built to honor Sadow if nobody has seen the SF for 2000 years ? And were talking about the entire Ancient Sith Empire meaning if Ajunta Pall had control over it it's there for this battle.



I was talking about Sion who was running around an killing people for years without having a single intact bone in his body. And yes...Simus was a Dark Lord and he used Sith magic to do what he did. Sion however was none of the ancient Sith Lords and Vader after being a "dark sider" for a few hours wasn't too...still both survived huge amounts of physical damage with sheer willpower because they were force users.



I love how I have to type "Now a example is following" before everything I write to have you understand it. Let a party of 50 Sith Lords board a YV ship and use illusions to cover them. Could be quite effective...



I wonder how non force users with melee weapons would manage to do the same...



I wonder how you gonna explain the existance of Arden Lyn...



Name another fighter that needed to kill eight elite warriors in seconds.

1. And Mace didn't hit his lightsaber peak for years and years after that. It's not exactly uncommon to craft a saber by that age...

2. When you have a race totally dependant on the Dark Side and its dominance and they realize they can't sense a massive enemy fleet through it....and considering the Sith were utter cowards when things didn't go their way. Just look at Sadow and Kressh. And the competence level wasn't high...Sadow made GAV DARAGON fleet commander...

3. Logical fallacy and KOTOR error as Sadow didn't even HAVE a tomb....hell, the Tetans were attacking the Empire and Sadow's corpse wasn't recovered.

4. Fifty Sith Lords who'd be massively outnumbered by the crew of a YV ship who wouldn't be intimidated by illusions, who'd have a large number of Chazrach slaves and thud and razor bugs to launch at them, not to mention Yammosks. And there'd have to be a strong Sith Lord in a meditation sphere nearbye....are the Vong pilots going to let it sit there? They'd be more likely to blast it to pieces. Otherwise the Vong'd be noticing which enemies the amphistaff slices through and which it doesn't.

5. Other fighters who'd have needed to kill eight warriors in seconds...well, would've helped Exar Kun on Coruscant...would've been a huge aid to Darth Malak and Darth Vader...Kyle Katarn, too


Anyways, the MB stuff is getting irritating with constant refreshes...anyone have IM?

5. Arden Lyn was Xendor's lover who was put into a 25 thou year sleep. What's hard about that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. From SW.com: "In 1999, Chewbacca became the first major character in the Star Wars films to be killed off in the Expanded Universe, when R.A. Salvatore's Vector Prime, the first entry in the New Jedi Order series, depicted him being crushed by Dobido, one of two moons of Sernpidal. This caused great resentment among some fans, including at least one death threat, despite the fact that the idea originated with Randy Stradley, and confirmed by Lucas well before Salvatore was even signed on to the series."

I know that Lucas confirmed Chewie's death. That means what?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
"According to author Timothy Zahn, Joruus C'baoth was originally supposed to be a mad clone of Obi-Wan (Ben) Kenobi, but was forced to change it when LucasFilm did not agree."

What does this have to do with anything? Says nothing about Lucas and DE.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That Lucas loved DE is common knowledge, as much that as he hates the holiday special.

Lucas actually vetoed someone of the things that were stated in DE. That he loved them isn't common knowledge since you seem to be only person who knows it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof ragnos touched a Sith other than Simus. Come on. Proof.

Ragnos was hated by the other Sith(source: KOTOR 2) for being a half breed. The strong shale rule(source: KOTOR). If Ragnos wasn't the strongest, he wouldn't rule. The Sith were constantly having Civil Wars(source: KOTOR 2).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And did Kyp move a dovin Basal in Dark Tide? Luke moved several blackholes to destroy the carrier beasts the YV were using. And Luke weak? Proof now. He never showed any weakness after creating the ships and managed to create a long lasting sith illusion to Leia and the gang. And when you reach that Luke couldn't manipulate Vong tech with the force...either he was manipulating black holes or manipulating massive amounts of gravity.

He moved them in one of the earlier NJO books after he got the idea from Luke.

The black holes Luke moved he generated by the Yuuzhan Vong vehicles, they weren't real black holes. If you knew what you are talking about, you would remember that he was extremely tired after and needed help walking because he was so tired. (Source: Dark Tide books I think).

Sadow produced illusions that were on a far larger scale and lasted for much longer during the Great Hyperspace War.

Luke was maniplating the fake black hole because the black hole was part of their galaxy even though what generated it was not. That was all explained in the book.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Name one instakilled by Luke.

Also note that Exar feared the Ancient Sith spirits and could do it. Logic states that if someone who is far weaker then someone can do something, the stronger person should be able to do the same because the feat itself requires great strength.



It says something more along the lines of less threatening by the moment. Nothing is never hinted at.



Prove that Jacen was above everyone else to begin with, then I will do my part.



If you have other people who have provided the same evidence, show it to me and we can move onward. For me to repost it would be almost as redundant as these arguments.



Which was stated as forming and armor on him. Also note that people like the Jensaari and the Nightsisters also wore armor and they were not Ancients. The fact that he is mentioned as Darth means more then me not knowing exactly where he got his armor.



Them having the name Darth is. Notice that they aren't Ancients either. Name one Ancient named Darth.

1. Feared them? He saw Ragnos once and he was more curious than afraid at all. Last page of DlotS.

2. Page 47-471 on proof of JAcen's power: "He had allowed himself to merge with the Force in its entirety and become a conduit for its raw power." And the way he flawlessly outmanuevers and kills Onimi?

3. Read Traitor and Star by Star. Hell, Anakin became a connection to the Force fully to do his part. Only when the Force left him did he die. Same as Ganner.

4. Yes, show me where someone has proven Massassi WEREN'T being taken on about five to one by Jedi in the Jedi favor and that Exar Kun was scared of Ragnos or that Luke was being helped by Anakin Solo.

5. Name a single Sith Lord who wore armor in the design of the ANCIENTS...completr with headresses, entombments on Korriban, and holocrons...
6. Sure: Andeddu. and considering one of Bane's other pals on Ruusan was Darth Rivan...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I know that Lucas confirmed Chewie's death. That means what?



What does this have to do with anything? Says nothing about Lucas and DE.



Lucas actually vetoed someone of the things that were stated in DE. That he loved them isn't common knowledge since you seem to be only person who knows it.



Ragnos was hated by the other Sith(source: KOTOR 2) for being a half breed. The strong shale rule(source: KOTOR). If Ragnos wasn't the strongest, he wouldn't rule. The Sith were constantly having Civil Wars(source: KOTOR 2).



He moved them in one of the earlier NJO books after he got the idea from Luke.

The black holes Luke moved he generated by the Yuuzhan Vong vehicles, they weren't real black holes. If you knew what you are talking about, you would remember that he was extremely tired after and needed help walking because he was so tired. (Source: Dark Tide books I think).

Sadow produced illusions that were on a far larger scale and lasted for much longer during the Great Hyperspace War.

Luke was maniplating the fake black hole because the black hole was part of their galaxy even though what generated it was not. That was all explained in the book.

1. You asked for proof. specify what you want proof on.

2. Lucas vetoed things in the Thrawn trilogy too. He enjoyed Dark Empire so much he gave a copy to all his employees as a Christmas gift.
If you want people who can confirm it:
TheForce.net
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=223

3. Dark Tide ain't Dark Empire. And 'not real black holes' what?

4. Luke produced enough fleet illusions to last through a massive battle...unlike Sadow, his concentration was never broken during the fight and the illusions lasted as long as Luke wanted, which is more than can be said for Naga.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. And Mace didn't hit his lightsaber peak for years and years after that. It's not exactly uncommon to craft a saber by that age...


It's uncommon to create a fighting style being 13 years old and have several thousand people around you who can't match you in a lightsaber fight. And it's totally uncommon to craft a saber in that age since this is part of the Jedi trials and normally people do that in their 20s - see Obi-Wan.



You still don't get it. As long as they can fight and kill people it won't matter if they can sense them or not. I don't see them running aways because they can't sense what the can kill...



I know some tombs and graves which have no bodies in them. Not very uncommon.



3 Jedi (Jacen, Jaina and Luke) were also heavily outnumbered and they just kicked through the Vong HQ and Luke - according to Jaina - did all the work. Well...now NJO Luke is more powerful than 50 Sith Lords combined ? Interesting...



Was Exar in any trouble on Coruscant in which he needed to kill 8 elite fighters in seconds ? Where would it had helped Malak or Vader (Vader just went and sliced the entire Jedi temple into pieces...) and Kyle Katarn who - without any training - killed 7 Dark Jedi personaly trained by Palpatine not to mention that he took down an entire Imperial Base without using the force and only left one survivor.

Hmm...I guess there might be tons of people able to reproduce that feat...



Somehow she did survive Xendor's defeat and that means that some of the Dark Jedi did escape from Republic's space and did go where ? A yes. And I don't have to prove things if you only estimate that x sources must be wrong because you have one source supporting your own ideas. Not that it would even matter since 2000 years (or 80 generations) of the Sith Empire are still enough to kick some Vong around.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. You asked for proof. specify what you want proof on.

2. Lucas vetoed things in the Thrawn trilogy too. He enjoyed Dark Empire so much he gave a copy to all his employees as a Christmas gift.
If you want people who can confirm it:
TheForce.net
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=223

3. Dark Tide ain't Dark Empire. And 'not real black holes' what?

4. Luke produced enough fleet illusions to last through a massive battle...unlike Sadow, his concentration was never broken during the fight and the illusions lasted as long as Luke wanted, which is more than can be said for Naga.

1. Your arguments.
2. Doesn't mean Luke is stronger then Ragnos.
3. Nor does it need to be. Why did you say that? They were similar to black holes created by Dovin Basals. An AT-AT could have blasted through them.
4. Excuse me? Naga created 9 fleets of illusions. When did Luke ever create a huge illusion since in DN he was swelled up and Ben asked if he was sick after he made an illusion of one ship. Naga's did it on a far larger scale and was less tired after.

1. Erm....Mace didn't create Vaapad till he was in his thirties....I think that's mentioned in Shatterpoint, after all, Sora helped him...
2. That they won't be able to sense them at first will take them back quite a bit, however. Sith are cowardly by nature and in a fight where they can't tell exactly what their enemy'll do next?
3. When would the Sith, when they were wiped off the faces of Korriban and Ziost, thanks to Naga's folly have time to build him a grand tomb?
4. An entire army of Vong aboard the cruiser focused TOTALLY on them? If the Sith did win this, the Vong'd just blow up their ship....or slam it into a Sith one...This is assuming the Sith can get through them...We're talming an entire army focused on fifty Sith who have not shown themselves to be great fighters.

5. I'd have thought Exar finishing off Cay Qel-Droma, along with Vodo, Nomi Sunrider, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta.....well, that'd be somewhat of a priority...would've gone over well considering most of those Jedi were responsible for his eventual downfall on all fronts. And they made novellas of Dark Forces, you know. we know exactly how Kyle killed the Dark siders...and Palpatine didn't train them. Lord Cronal and Jerec did....hell, Palpatine never trusted Jerec whatsoever

6. Arden killed a Jedi knight at the end of the war, who froze her body in a deathlike slumber for 25,000 years. And 2000 years enough to finish twenty thousand years of Vong who can populate a galaxy next to a small empire? The Vong can give a thousand fighters for every Sith Lord and still come out on top. And it need never come to a hand to hand. This can be done completely tactically. And fleetwise, the Sith are completely inferior. And one source supporting my stuff beats zero sources. And the Legions of Lettow were wiped out. Only the survivers of the Battle of Corbos found the Sith.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. Your arguments.
2. Doesn't mean Luke is stronger then Ragnos.
3. Nor does it need to be. Why did you say that? They were similar to black holes created by Dovin Basals. An AT-AT could have blasted through them.
4. Excuse me? Naga created 9 fleets of illusions. When did Luke ever create a huge illusion since in DN he was swelled up and Ben asked if he was sick after he made an illusion of one ship. Naga's did it on a far larger scale and was less tired after.
1. PRovided.
2. Doesn't mean he's not. Ragnos has done....well, nothing we've ever seen. There's Simus, and showing up around Korriban.....well, that's really it.
3. Proof.
4. in DN? Possibly because he'd been using massive amounts of force? And Sadow himself stated he was amplified by the Meditation Sphere....and nine fleets? Three armies. At best. and notice Luke made it last to however long he wanted and Sadow was interrupted by someone he left in command. And unlike Sadow's illusions, Luke's was created out thin air and completely lifelike. and did we mention never created an illusion that lasted days as Luke's Sith illusion did? Without a meditation sphere? And less tired? Considering we hardly SAW Naga until days afterwards, and he was slumped back in his throne exhausted...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. PRovided.

On some occasions. Most of the time your proof is to shaky.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Doesn't mean he's not. Ragnos has done....well, nothing we've ever seen. There's Simus, and showing up around Korriban.....well, that's really it.

I'm not going to restate Ragnos' arguments, it's been done dozens of times, perhaps you should go look for them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Proof.

The Dark Tide books.

And to turn the tables, when did Luke ever control a real black hole?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. in DN? Possibly because he'd been using massive amounts of force? And Sadow himself stated he was amplified by the Meditation Sphere....and nine fleets? Three armies. At best. and notice Luke made it last to however long he wanted and Sadow was interrupted by someone he left in command. And unlike Sadow's illusions, Luke's was created out thin air and completely lifelike. and did we mention never created an illusion that lasted days as Luke's Sith illusion did? Without a meditation sphere? And less tired? Considering we hardly SAW Naga until days afterwards, and he was slumped back in his throne exhausted...

90% of Sadow's forces were stated as illusions. He had a fleet. A the other 90% and you get 9 fleets. It's simple.

Luke was under extreme strain on just one ship and was having extreme difficulty maintaining it. To say he could hold it as long as he wanted is foolish.

When did Luke create this Sith illusion that lasted days?

1. I'll work on that.
2. There's literally nothing Ragnos has been seen doing....that he's fought 'hundreds' is pure conjecture.
3. Dark Tide? I wasn't aware there was a difference between black holes. regular ones are formed when a star collapses under its own weight, dovin basals create one out of the collapse of gravity.
4. During Swarm War when he was creating an illusion without the comfort of a mediation sphere down to every tiny detail. And nine fleets? Just because ninety percent of one fleet is illusion, doesn't mean he's making nine fleets. He wasn't even creating fleets, he was creating unconcrete images of soldiers and projecting them onto the battlefield, thanks to his meditation sphere.

Luke's Sith illusion from Byss

He was already sitting on the Council when he was 28 and yes he did create Vaapad when he was still a Padawan and since he became a Knight at the age of 13 that would be the latest possible age - wouldn't it ? He didn't use it perfectly of course but since Vaapad use requires mastery of other lightsaber styles (form IV, V and VII) he's quite the lightsaber prodigy...

Umm he created Vapaad in his thirties not when he was a Padawan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. There's literally nothing Ragnos has been seen doing....that he's fought 'hundreds' is pure conjecture.

It is logical from what we know of the Sith ways though.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Dark Tide? I wasn't aware there was a difference between black holes. regular ones are formed when a star collapses under its own weight, dovin basals create one out of the collapse of gravity.

They create super small ones black hole lookalikes. The Dovin Basal black hole is millions of times weaker as a real on would suck up an entire planet that it was created on and the Dovin Basal would eat the ship that made it except for the fact that is it artificial and faces away from the ship, which a real black hole would not do.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. During Swarm War when he was creating an illusion without the comfort of a mediation sphere down to every tiny detail. And nine fleets? Just because ninety percent of one fleet is illusion, doesn't mean he's making nine fleets. He wasn't even creating fleets, he was creating unconcrete images of soldiers and projecting them onto the battlefield, thanks to his meditation sphere.

Luke's Sith illusion from Byss

The detail used on Sadows illusions is much greater. Also note that Sadow never had the whole slewwing up experince. Also note that Aleema made huge illusions without a meditation sphere too. It was far from just the sphere. The sphere was a tool to augment his powers, it didn't create them.

Where does the "he created Vaapad in his thirties" stuff come from ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Where does the "he created Vaapad in his thirties" stuff come from ?

It comes from... Bullshit!

Depa had to know it while Mace was in his 20s, so he must have made it long before then.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It is logical from what we know of the Sith ways though.



They create super small ones black hole lookalikes. The Dovin Basal black hole is millions of times weaker as a real on would suck up an entire planet that it was created on and the Dovin Basal would eat the ship that made it except for the fact that is it artificial and faces away from the ship, which a real black hole would not do.



The detail used on Sadows illusions is much greater. Also note that Sadow never had the whole slewwing up experince. Also note that Aleema made huge illusions without a meditation sphere too. It was far from just the sphere. The sphere was a tool to augment his powers, it didn't create them.

1. When he beat Simus, it's probably not a single Sith dared to challenge him.

2. Hm, point them.

3. Sadow's illusions were very undetailed andmainly worked because they came from his imagination and the Meditation sphere projected them. It augmented his strength severely. Aleema's illusions were done a lot differently as she had a talent for manipulating minds...and her illusions tended to be beaten easily by the Jedi. Most of the illusions were pretty...undetailed, though granted that could be the fault of the artist

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He created Vaapad when he was in his thirties...where'd you get the idea it was in his padawanage?

Where did you get the idea it was in his 30's? I found no mention of that in Shatterpoint.

Notice that he was on the Council by 28, so he had to have been a master before then. 2 ways he could have done this.

1. Made Vapaad and been deemed worthy of the title.
2. Taught it to Depa, who was a master at it. That means he was 28 at the latest when Depa knew it. He wouldn't have taught it to his padawan unless he had tested it on himself for years first.

And wait, why must Depa have known it while Mace was in his twenties? He developed it with Sora Bulq when they were masters together...he sat on the council at the age of thirty...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Depa had to know it while Mace was in his 20s, so he must have made it long before then.

Hmm...
Mace: 40 years old in TPM
Depa: at least 29 years old in TPM (since Mace with 28 was the youngest person on the Council ever so far)

So Mace must have started training Depa at least 16 years before TPM (when he was 24) and he taught her Vaapad which he must have invented and mastered before. Hmm...I guess the "in his 30s" thing is wrong and you're right but - logic doesn't count much here any longer...

And who says he had to have made Vaapad to get on the council?

2. Who says he taught it to Depa right then and there? Mace was over fifty at the time of the CW...plenty of time to teach Depa.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And wait, why must Depa have known it while Mace was in his twenties? He developed it with Sora Bulq when they were masters together...he sat on the council at the age of thirty...

Because Mace taught it to her when Depa was his Padawan and she was his Padawan at least from his 24th year on...so he must have developed the style at least in his early twenties but since he must have mastered it in order to teach it he must have created it before...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Hmm...
Mace: 40 years old in TPM
Depa: at least 29 years old in TPM (since Mace with 28 was the youngest person on the Council ever so far)

So Mace must have started training Depa at least 16 years before TPM (when he was 24) and he taught her Vaapad which he must have invented and mastered before. Hmm...I guess the "in his 30s" thing is wrong and you're right but - logic doesn't count much here any longer...

Bor....I want proof he invented Vaapad BEFORE he sat on the Council. After all, at that young age, he wouldn't have met Bulq or had Depa as a Padawan

And wait, who says he taught it to Depa when she was a Padawan?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And who says he had to have made Vaapad to get on the council?

2. Who says he taught it to Depa right then and there? Mace was over fifty at the time of the CW...plenty of time to teach Depa.

She was sitting on the Council in TPM if you didn't know that. So Depa was already a Jedi Master when Mace was 40 years old. Since Mace was the youngest Council member ever up to that point and joined the Council being 28 Depa must at least have been 29.

Since Younglings are chosen to be Padawans and train under another Jedi in the age of 13, Depa must have been with Mace at least 16 years before TPM (and this would mean she became a Council member directly after she was made a Jedi Knight) and Mace was 24 years old at that time. And he was using Vaapad back then...so he couldn't have invented it in his 30s...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When he beat Simus, it's probably not a single Sith dared to challenge him.

What makes you think this? There were several whole new generations of Sith to challenge him who never knew Simus' power, btw.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Hm, point them.

It's not as impressive as anyone makes it out to be. I know, because I was one of the people who carried Luke up to his pedastol a long time ago. I helped with the Revan vs. Luke threads a long time ago and, since I was one of, if not the most knowledgable guy on NJO at the time(I had read it a lot more recently), I told about the black hole thing.

Anyway, a ship can't produce more power shields then the total amount of power it has. Putting a third of something's energy into defense is above average, but it's a nice and easy percentage to work with.

If the ship is the YV version of an AT-AT, it's shields are weaker then an actual black holes amount of power. Many Ancient feats are above this, since they are above the guy who instakills people.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Sadow's illusions were very undetailed andmainly worked because they came from his imagination and the Meditation sphere projected them. It augmented his strength severely. Aleema's illusions were done a lot differently as she had a talent for manipulating minds...and her illusions tended to be beaten easily by the Jedi. Most of the illusions were pretty...undetailed, though granted that could be the fault of the artist

Because they were on such a huge scale. 10,000 pounds of sand(Sadows illusion) is heavier then a 1,000 pound brick(Luke's illusion).

Yeah, I remember Depa was a council memebr at that point...and no, Mace saved Depa when he was really, really young...I forget his exact age, but when he fought the slavers, he was a Padawan. It's occasional that the gifted students can become padawans prior to the age of 13...we also don't know that she didn't learn Vaapad in the interim of time ON the council....Depa's an unfortunate mystery in most cases

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What makes you think this? There were several whole new generations of Sith to challenge him who never knew Simus' power, btw.



It's not as impressive as anyone makes it out to be. I know, because I was one of the people who carried Luke up to his pedastol a long time ago. I helped with the Revan vs. Luke threads a long time ago and, since I was one of, if not the most knowledgable guy on NJO at the time(I had read it a lot more recently), I told about the black hole thing.

Anyway, a ship can't produce more power shields then the total amount of power it has. Putting a third of something's energy into defense is above average, but it's a nice and easy percentage to work with.

If the ship is the YV version of an AT-AT, it's shields are weaker then an actual black holes amount of power. Many Ancient feats are above this, since they are above the guy who instakills people.



Because they were on such a huge scale. 10,000 pounds of sand(Sadows illusion) is heavier then a 1,000 pound brick(Luke's illusion).

1. I'd think all they had to do was look at the head in a jar...most of them never dared challenge him while he was dying,...I doubt they'd have dared challenge him, considering Sith can live a few centuries.

2. Ok, even without the blackhole one, Luke still has plenty to his name though. He manipulates solar flares-he shows Brakiss how to do this-he shields planets from view, creates powerful illusions with no enhancements, bests DE Sidious-before he and LEia join together...The most any Ancient has ever done was to use a ship's superweapon to blow up a star-and it IS a weapon...open the Sith war and open to the page where Dace, Qrrrrl and Shoaneb die...it specifically states there it was a superweapon on Sadow's ship/

3. Sadow wasn't creating such massive illusions though. Let me find the quote...It shows the sphere flashing illusions as Sadow concentrates and he says it makes his illusions real. OTherwise, damaging the meditation sphere wouldn't have been so costly

Since I've missed it:

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Except Edge of Victory book I stated a Dark Sider's FL doesn't work on them. Lomi and Welk used darkside techniques on Voxyn and their own weaponry. And forc elightning won't stop armies...it needs focus on several Vong


How are "some Dark Siders" compareable to Ancient Sith Lords ?



Well...I don't think that they would break the tradition to bury their Dark Lord in a tomb seeing that Korriban is covered with them.



You're again talking about a single generation of Sith when I'm talking about - at least 2000 years - of the Sith Empire including people like Ragnos who would curbstomp people like Sadow or Kressh. So if you multiply the Sith force by 80 I'm pretty sure they would have been able to take anything they'd like to take especially when you give them the Star Forge.



And then somebody did train him to use the Dark Side and that would have been Vader and Sidious.



He did that between Jedi Knight and JK II. And yes he did it on his own...Boba Fett repeated that feat later.



Same goes for the Essential Guides...



DE mentions lightsaber that are more than 10,000 years old and are weapons which the Sith didn't know about. The Essential Guide (at least the last one I've seen) put the invention of lightsabers as they exist to 9,990 BBY and even states that they have experimented with similar technology before that. So how is it possible that the Sith didn't know about weapons that were invented 2000 years before they left the Republic ?



Oh...TOTJ doesn't mention were the order originated but at the same time it says that it's origin were survivors of the 100 year Darkness...

I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions. - George Lucas, from an interview in Starlog #337

Oh yeah... Lucas REALLY cares about how powerful Luke is. I'm sure he's reading each and every book and okaying all the words, too.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since I've missed it:



How are "some Dark Siders" compareable to Ancient Sith Lords ?



Well...I don't think that they would break the tradition to bury their Dark Lord in a tomb seeing that Korriban is covered with them.



You're again talking about a single generation of Sith when I'm talking about - at least 2000 years - of the Sith Empire including people like Ragnos who would curbstomp people like Sadow or Kressh. So if you multiply the Sith force by 80 I'm pretty sure they would have been able to take anything they'd like to take especially when you give them the Star Forge.



And then somebody did train him to use the Dark Side and that would have been Vader and Sidious.



He did that between Jedi Knight and JK II. And yes he did it on his own...Boba Fett repeated that feat later.



Same goes for the Essential Guides...



DE mentions lightsaber that are more than 10,000 years old and are weapons which the Sith didn't know about. The Essential Guide (at least the last one I've seen) put the invention of lightsabers as they exist to 9,990 BBY and even states that they have experimented with similar technology before that. So how is it possible that the Sith didn't know about weapons that were invented 2000 years before they left the Republic ?



Oh...TOTJ doesn't mention were the order originated but at the same time it says that it's origin were survivors of the 100 year Darkness...

1. Somehow the Sith would be able to sense the Vong through the Force?

2. Alright: Sadow was never buried on Korriban...he was believed dead and sent to Yavin 4 AFTER Ludo Kressh took over-within a day or two. And the Tetans proceeded to genocide the Sith...
3. Ok, I'm talking about the end of the Sith Empire to the end of the Vong Empire...Ragnos was also the Sith pinnacle....before and after him, quality can only decrease.

3. Actually, Jerec was trained there by Inquisitor Tremayne.

4. canonically we don't know. Wait'll the next Kyle Katarn stuff is written. And Boba wiped out a garrison once, yes

5. Essential guides pretty much decide the Chronology of the thing and everything else....in this case, it made a massive retcon and we'll have to see what happened.

6. The Legions of the Lettow were NOT in the 100 year darkness...they never were. I meant 'WHEN' they originated

And Ianus, considering they have to run more than a few things by him....not the least of which was a decision to kill Luke, later replaced with Chewbacca...and he was a big fan of Dark Empire.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I'd think all they had to do was look at the head in a jar...most of them never dared challenge him while he was dying,...I doubt they'd have dared challenge him, considering Sith can live a few centuries.


Ragnos must have gone through other challenges in order to get the title of a Sith Lord and be allowed to challenge Simus. It's not like he simply came out of nowhere and thought "Oh...I never found somebody...I'll try to fight the strongest immediatly...".



Ah...the illusions feat is not that much of a measure for power neither is the "hiding a planet" thing. In the Black Fleet books you can see that other people are reproducing that feats quite effortless. And you still missing the fact that somebody had to create all the nice toys people were using later from amulets over Exar Kun's "Sith Gauntlets" to Sadow's ship. And an army of people equipped with stuff like that will be freaking dangerous...



As said before: Aleema did do it without a meditation sphere and in the Black Fleet books other people do it too. You just need to know how it works...

Where's the proof of that, Lightsnake? I have provided you with a quote verbatim. You have provided me with... your word. You rely so much on these vaunted quotes but you do not provide others with a means of checking your homework.

GL said that Ragnos was the strongest Sith of all time.

Disprove that, please.

1. Why couldn't he just challenge Simus? Why would there be a big 'challenger' system?

2. Where in the Black Fleet trilogy? I try to forget it a lot. However, remember: When the Vong are at the Sith core worlds, the Sith re very limited: They can't begin blowing up their own stars, that'll kill 'em faster than the Vong...as for the amulets, it's unknown if that could work on a race unsensed via the Force. And what he did in TUF and Dark Empire are certainly measures of great power, as well as moving star destroyers with the force.

3. Aleema just had Sadow's ship and the force...that's all she really needed...hell, even CRADO was working the thing's weapons...Aleema had nothing on Sadow either, her illusions were done with the help of other Krath and much smaller scale. Plus, she got some nice trinkets from Nadd that belonged to Sadow

Right, Ianus, and I'd need to back up 'Lucas hates the holiday special' while I'm at it?

I just asked for the story at SW.com. I'll post it when someone answers

Well, I would hate to question your knowledge, Lightsnake... except that you're the only person at KMC to ever make such claims and I think proof is needed if we're to be convinced by your arguments. It's only fair.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Somehow the Sith would be able to sense the Vong through the Force?

I think you still didn't get the point here. Force Lightning is just massive amount of energy channeled and thrown against a target. Why would anybody need to sense the target in order to hit it ?
And somehow I believe that the creators of that force ability who did use it for centuries would quite better using it than some mere Dark Jedi...



Ok...so you have only that what is present at the highest point of the Sith Empire vs all Vong that invaded the Republic. What would stop thousands of minor Sith (force users), millions of Massasi Warriors, and 21 Sith Lords from obliterating the Vong HQ ? What would stop the Sith from using Sadow's ship to obliterate some Vong fleets ?
And please remember that Sadow didn't use the forces of the entire Sith Empire.



Actually it's told that Palpatine trained Jerec personally and gave him access to some Sith sources but then stopped it because he never thrusted Jerec.



Boba wiped out a garnison because Kyle did defeat him and he had to rebuilt his reputation.



That's funny. I've told Glentract before and I'll tell you again: The Essential Guides just gather information and put them into some form and they make mistakes. Also they don't have any authority over the actual sources and since they use game and RPG information they are even below those in terms of "canon". So actually you can ignore them if they contradict actual sources.



I wonder where that can be found in the TOTJ comics...



And he was a big fan of the CW cartoons and still they are exegarreting and contradict the movies.

Like I said, getting proof as we speak. I first heard it at SW.com, so I'll simply rerequest the info

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Why couldn't he just challenge Simus? Why would there be a big 'challenger' system?

Imagine you never fought anybody and you're living in a surrounding in which everybody is fighting for power (what a contradiction) - would you go and challenge the most powerful person around ? And if you do that how great is the possibility that you'll manage to defeat him without any training and experience. Logic says that Ragnos fought other people before...



In the last book.
Erm...when the entire Vong fleet invades the Sith systems and the Sith create a supernova (which they can do) that would destroy all Vong at the Sith can evacuate their worlds before. Still the Vong lose. If the Republic would have used superweapons those Vong would have been crushed before taking down that huge amount of worlds.



My point was that the illusions can be created without an meditation sphere...

Originally posted by Borbarad
I think you still didn't get the point here. Force Lightning is just massive amount of energy channeled and thrown against a target. Why would anybody need to sense the target in order to hit it ?
And somehow I believe that the creators of that force ability who did use it for centuries would quite better using it than some mere Dark Jedi...



Ok...so you have only that what is present at the highest point of the Sith Empire vs all Vong that invaded the Republic. What would stop thousands of minor Sith (force users), millions of Massasi Warriors, and 21 Sith Lords from obliterating the Vong HQ ? What would stop the Sith from using Sadow's ship to obliterate some Vong fleets ?
And please remember that Sadow didn't use the forces of the entire Sith Empire.



Actually it's told that Palpatine trained Jerec personally and gave him access to some Sith sources but then stopped it because he never thrusted Jerec.



Boba wiped out a garnison because Kyle did defeat him and he had to rebuilt his reputation.



That's funny. I've told Glentract before and I'll tell you again: The Essential Guides just gather information and put them into some form and they make mistakes. Also they don't have any authority over the actual sources and since they use game and RPG information they are even below those in terms of "canon". So actually you can ignore them if they contradict actual sources.



I wonder where that can be found in the TOTJ comics...



And he was a big fan of the CW cartoons and still they are exegarreting and contradict the movies.

1. Force lightning is still an extension of force energy. It doesn't matter if Ragnos himself was attempting to lightning or Force choke a Vong...if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

2. Sadow used nearly the entire Empire, only Kressh resisted with a small force. And the Sith wouldn't sense the Vong until they were on their doorstep...by then, if they took up the ship, they';d have to be blowing up their own stars while the Vong are slamming moons into them...the superweapon causes a chain reaction in the stars and if they destroy their own stars, in any where close to them, they'd end up wiping themselves out while the Vong had far more people than the Sith. That the Sith can't use most of their pwoers against the Vong, who live for a very long time, training as warriors and always in constant battle...The Vong tend to move faster than the eye can see....a FLUNKY of Shedao Shai killed a Noghri before his deflected knife even touched the ground and their resistance is insane, coupled with the fact they'd never have any compunction about killing themselves for the greater good, far unlike Sith...and their weaponry would certainly cause some confusion amongst the Sith....if they tried to grab an amphistaff onto have it bite them? And Massassi weren't impressive warriors...we saw the Jedi and Republic really taking them out and Jori daragon killed quite a few of them. As for the sith Lords...they could finish off generic Vong, but against the commanders and Supreme Commanders in a straight up duel? I doubt they're that superior. And I'd put a warmaster against any Sith warrior. And Like I said: Vong have a lot of surprises for the Sith.

3. Huh? Palp trained Jerec? I know he gave him some secrets, but Tremayne took care of Jerec mostly...Jerec hardly needed much training anyways.

4. I know Boba wiped out a garrison, I confirmed he did.

5. Proof that Essential guides don't matter? What sources do they contradict? Dan Wallace was talking about this stuff on TFN, about the Lucasfilm position on KOTOR....a lot of stuff he's given has to be verified and confirmed. Leland Chee also has a bit to do with the stuff-you can find a LOT of Leland questions on the link earlier in the topic. For all intents and purposes now: Xendor and Arden Lyn were in 25000 BBY, the Hundred year Darkness 7100 BBY

6. It's found in other sources, the LEgions of Lettow never appear in TOTJ...hell, the HUndred Year Darkness is mentioned in a footnote

Originally posted by Borbarad
Imagine you never fought anybody and you're living in a surrounding in which everybody is fighting for power (what a contradiction) - would you go and challenge the most powerful person around ? And if you do that how great is the possibility that you'll manage to defeat him without any training and experience. Logic says that Ragnos fought other people before...



In the last book.
Erm...when the entire Vong fleet invades the Sith systems and the Sith create a supernova (which they can do) that would destroy all Vong at the Sith can evacuate their worlds before. Still the Vong lose. If the Republic would have used superweapons those Vong would have been crushed before taking down that huge amount of worlds.



My point was that the illusions can be created without an meditation sphere...

1. What if your reputation outgoes you for decades and noone dares challenging you for that long?

2. The Sith would NEVER willingly sacrifice their worlds...when would they have the time when surrounded by the entire Vong Fleet? there'd be no place to slip out. and I think Han summed up what'd happen in superweapons were used best...and the Sith don't have access to this kind of technology. The supernova'd never claim all the Vong and it'd exterminate most of the Sith....like I said, if the Vong have all their forces there, the Sith COULD NOT get out...we're talking the entire area and long thereafter barricaded and slamming a moon into Ziost before the Sith know what's even going on...and you think they'd jsut decide to cause a supernova off the bat?

3. Of course they can. However they don't work as well

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Force lightning is still an extension of force energy. It doesn't matter if Ragnos himself was attempting to lightning or Force choke a Vong...if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

They still can throw them around or throw stuff at them. And I'm still not conviced that the ancient Sith Lords won't be able to use force lightning on the Vong. And I'm still not conviced that a normal Vong, one of their warriors or even a slayer would be a match for some people who can break Sith swords harder than blast doors with their sheer physical power.



Obviously more than half of the Sith Lords (and their personal forces) remained at the Sith Empire when Sadow went to fight some war against the Republic...so that "small force" was some considerable part of the entire Sith Empire's forces.



So your estimating the Vong just "pop out" in the middle of the Sith Empire not knowing the hyperspace routes needed to get there and you assume that all Sith will be on one single planet (despite the fact that the Sith Empire contained hundrets of them) and they won't sense if one of their planets will be attacked (thousands or millions dying) ?



Just think about how this would most likely go: The Vong reach the Sith Empire from Republic space and that means they reach some less important planet containing only minor servants. Now they attack it and destroy it's population. In the same second the Sith Lords will sense that unless you want to tell me they're all weaker force users than Obi-Wan.
While the Vong are now continuing to destroy whatever system they reach first the Sith can do two things at once:
a) if confronted with some enemy which can pretty much whipe out planets they will get themselves into space
b) they can send Sadow's ship to the system which gets attacked.

(If it's the entire Ancient Sith Empire they could also start producing stuff with the Star Forge at this point).

Now Sadow's ship reaches the system, sees that it will be destroyed no matter what and after a little manipulation of the sun / suns of the system the entire system turns into a nice supernova while Sadow's ship escapes. How many Vong do you think a supernova would kill ?



This is only an assumption of yourself and not a proven fact. And the Sith are people who live for a very long time, training as warriors and always be in constant battle theirselves...with the little difference that killing a Sith Lord could be a bigger problem than killing a Vong seeing that they could take being crushed, burned and even beheaded without facing death...



Ever heard about force speed ? If Padawan Kenobi can use it in TPM I think some Sith Lord would not have any problem with it. And why would some Sith Lord even think of grabbing an amphistaff seeing that they wield some huge Sith swords able to resist blaster hits and lightsaber strikes ?



You can't compare the situations here. Did you see Republic soldiers and Jori deal with Massasi Warriors in melee weapon combat 1vs1 ? Jedi could do that but as we have seen Jedi are also able to deal with Vong in melee combat.



The Star Wars Databank. Read the Expanded Universe part of the "Sith" entry there:

"In the early days of the Jedi, a great schism tore the order apart. Jedi who had tapped the forbidden power of the Force's dark side rebelled against their light-sided brothers. After a terrible war, the Dark Jedi were exiled from the Republic. Past the Republic's growing borders, these castaways discovered Korriban and the Sith people."

As you see the Sith Empire was founded in "the early days of the Jedi" after the first great schism under Xendor. And while you beloved TFN isn't endorsed by Lucasfilm - Lucasfilm owns starwars.com.
So the highest authority on history of Star Wars apart from Lucas himself gives the Sith Empire 20,000 years of existance. And since Lucasfilm does have the final word here...



What reputation would you have if you never fought anybody ? Not that it would even matter if Ragnos fought people or not. He simply beheaded the most powerful person (and in terms of the Sith Empire this means the most powerful fighter / force user).



They won't sacrifice their own lives. Since when do Sith give a damn about other especially their servants ?



I wonder how the entire Vong fleet would be able to "surround" hundrets of planets and how they would even get to the important ones (Ziost, Korriban)...



Ah well...I guess the "invisible" sister planet of Korriban called Koros Minor doesn't even count. Can the Vong hit things they can't see ?



See above. Ziost is deep in the core of the Sith Empire and the Vong will impact on the outer rim of the Empire first. And why would a Sith Lord not sacrifice some star systems filled with some minions ?



Why won't they work. Illusions are created and that's it. They won't scare the Vong away but they'll need time to figure out what's an illusions and what's real. And since the Vong threat even minor force users like gods what do you think will happen if they have to face an army of powerful force users ?

Also note that according to some rpg stats an average Massassi is about as good as an average Jedi, which can kill five or six Vong and come out alive. The better ones can take a few dozen.

Bor, I just had a massive post typed up and by a goddamn fluke, it got deleted.....suffice to say I'll make this short...

1. It need never come to a confrontation on ground-the Sith never moved faster than the eye could see and we never saw one of them beat a Jedi. And Jori daragon was alone with only a saber and killed an entire group of Massassi. She was facing an entire group of them by herself. And as for the Jedi killing them....well, we saw them literally slaughtering groups of them at a time on their own... And the Sith fleet was pitifully weak and required intimidation. You think the Vong would give a damn about 'figuring out illusions?' They'd just plunge into the fight and slaughter what they saw. Illusions would NOT work.

2. Ok, have you ever read Golden Age of the Sith? The final battle of the Sith empire was Corbos and according to the Han Solo trilogy, Xendor's legions were totally exterminated. Dan wallace works for Lucasfilm and his officially approved book says they were different schisms. the databank didn't say "This was the only schism, there were never other schisms." Xendor's schism and the hundred year Darkness were different...one little detail'd be Arden LYn and Xendor didn't live to be over 100. The LEttow war didn't last a century. Face it: I have an official source backing me here and you have a single quote that proves nothing, just that there was an Empire and it was founded. In case you didn't notice, dan Wallace isn't TFN, he wrote a book that is official continuity and listed by SW.com.

3. Ok, the Sith Empire was not as large as you think it was. It was described as 'small.' with only about, what, 15 worlds? And Koros Minor was one of Empress Teta's worlds. And when a GALAXY'S WORTH OF VONG SURROUNDS YOU you think you can escape at all? A force capable of defeating MILLIONS of worlds to your paltry little empire that couldn't beat three planets? That you won't sense till they're on you? You think the Vong aren't smart commanders? They scout, they plan, they scheme...they use superweapons, they dishearten. The Sith were practically democratic! They talked of 'electing' Ludo to the position of Dark Lord and they NEVER FOUGHT anyone who wasn't Sith. the first time they tried they were EXTERMINATED. The Sith were terrified of the idea of an enemy who could reach them and they couldn't sense when only Simus was murdered with his escort. They were terrified and panicked enemies had arrived from a place alien to them and that they didn't sense them. Their entire purpose, Ragnos and Kressh, was PRESERVING the race...the Sith factions will never stay together if some idiot Sith begins blowing up their worlds, damaging their beloved empire and losing resources...every last world of the Sith empire was vital to them

Moreover, as closely compacted as the Sith worlds are, with maybe two big stars, what will supernovaing one do the empire? It'd vaporize half the system. And the Star Forge? Nope, didn't have it. That they ever did was a complete error. That it could POSSIBLY be in Naga's tomb is an error. that Naga could have a tomb? An error. Korriban in that game was one big mistake. Where was the Star Forge during ragnos's reign then? Would've helped Naga, especially since he had a map in his TOMB! The idea they had a Star Forge is ludicrous beyond believe, especially considering the errors involved in Sadow's tomb. I'm sure they had time to build him one in the two days of his lordship before he got the Empire exterminated....I'm sure Ludo would've approved of a tomb being built to honor Naga

And minor force users? Please....back that up. And by the way, Yammosks have to shown to pierce illusions. They're extremely dangerous creatures and war coordinators with a talent for breaking people and piercing through the Force. And time to think about what's real and not? Their idea will be 'attack and kill what we see, worry about details later.' If it even comes down to a hand to hand...and that's in case they decide to let the MEditation sphere stand

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Also note that according to some rpg stats an average Massassi is about as good as an average Jedi, which can kill five or six Vong and come out alive. The better ones can take a few dozen.

Yes. Yes, which is why the best Massassi selected to assault Cinnagar and guard Sadow's fleet commander were killed by a kid who never touched a saber before

RPG stats= noncanon. Not even continuity. They contradict far too much. And the average Jedi can kill five or six Vong? Last I checked, the average Jedi was an average Vong's equal. Seriously, drop the RPG stats stuff. They even print a disclaimer in the opening pages that their stuff is games only and shouldn't effect the stories.

Did I ever say it does?

By the war, many average Jedi, like Tahiri was able to take five or six of them without to much difficutly. Ganner killed hundreds in a single battle. Equal my ass.


I'm talking the mutated ones that any Sith Alchemist could make in only a few days. Those guys were tough, but no one before Exar had use for them. Now they will, and they will use them.

Tahiri was NOT an ordinary Jedi at the time and was more in touch with the Vong than anyone else....and Ganner, like Anakin was opened up completely to the Force itself. He'd ceased to become Ganner.

And you're forgetting this need never come down to a melee fight. Those big mutated ones didn't do too well either.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. It need never come to a confrontation on ground-


No...because the Sith annihilate the Vong before ?



You want to argue hyperbole ? Mace did the same in Shatterpoint. His movements were descriped as "invisible" and he punched Kar Vastor 6 times before Kar - who would bash Vongs as if they were nothing - could even react. Since this is force aided movement speed and we have seen Obi-Wan (a Padawan !) and Qui-Gon doing the same thing in TPM (at the beginning when they ran away from the droideka they were moving faster then the blaster bolts fired at them) I'd say Sith Lords don't have any problems doing the same.



Well...did you see ROTS ? I've seen a Sith Lord killing three Jedi Masters there and another Sith Lord was cutting his way to the Jedi temple. Did you miss that ?



They would attack the illusions as well. And if Sadow is able to make up 90 % of his own forces with illusions they have exactly a chance of 10 % to hit something that does really exist while the Sith would have a 100 % chance to hit something that exists the other way arround.



Have you read the quote ? It says that the founding of the Sith Empire happened in the early days of the Jedi. Period. You have actually nothing to argue that because that people after the hundret year darkness could still have travelled to the Sith Empire but the actual founding happened after the first schism. And technically there wasn't another schism because that term means that one "religion" is divided into two different "religions" and there are only Jedi and Sith and nothing apart from them.
And great...the Han Solo trilogy. They might have thought that they exterminated Xendor's Dark Jedi - the same way they thought they had exterminated the Sith in the Battle of Ruusan.



Yeah. Right. They expanded for 20,000 years or - use you own (wrong) figure if you want - 2,000 years and they only conquered 15 planets ? Use some logic please...



That little Empire that couldn't defeat heavy fortified worlds defended by Jedi ? Uh...when did the Vong took a world that was defended by force users easily ? When did they destroy "millions" of worlds ?



That paragraph is filled with so much dumb interpretations that I can't answer them all.
First they weren't democratic. They had this nice little rule that "the strongest should reign" over the Empire meaning the strongest had to prove he was the strongest. This is why Ragnos kept them under his belt for more than a century and why they didn't "elect" a new Dark Lord directly after Ragnos death - because Kressh and Sadow were basically equal.
And the Sith were afraid about an attack of the Republic or specifically the Jedi because the Jedi had defeated their ancestors. And nothing else...if non force users attack them, and especially none force users who threat force users as if they are Gods the Sith don't have any reason to be afraid.



It'll vaporize the entire Vong fleet and there is more than "one" system. I wonder why you still don't get it...



It doesn't matter how many errors there are. Ajunta Pall did know about the Star Forge and he was one of the Ancient Sith Lords. If you're talking about the ENTIRE empire from it's beginning to it's end they'll have the Star Forge. And that was what I was talking about.



You did notice that the entire Sith species - even back in their "primitive days" - were force users ? The Sith Lords are just the most powerful of them. And the Sith Lords are just "a small bit" below your beloved Sidious when it comes to force powers (in the worst case for my argumentation that the quote of Anderson actually exists).



Again talking about a meditation sphere that isn't needed ? And the point was that they have to attack the illusions to figure out if they are illusions or not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tahiri was NOT an ordinary Jedi at the time and was more in touch with the Vong than anyone else....and Ganner, like Anakin was opened up completely to the Force itself. He'd ceased to become Ganner.

And you're forgetting this need never come down to a melee fight. Those big mutated ones didn't do too well either.

At that time, Tahiri was weak. She was an apprentice still, not even a Knight. And who is to say the Ancient Sith can't do what Ganner did? Many people have done it.

The Sith can use the Yuuzhan Vong technology against them. They can flip the dovin basal shields back at Yuuzhan Vong ships, destroying the ship in minutes. Mutiply this by 20, and the largest Yuuzhan Vong battle fleet, which was about 500 capital ships, will be destroyed in less then an hour. Significantly weaker force users, like Rarnay Thul, was able to bend turbolaser beams away from his ship, a far more difficult feat then turning plasma away. The Vong can't win. Nothing short of the Empire hitting the Sith with superweapons could destroy them, especially when the Ancient Sith feel threatened by an outside force like the Vong.

The Ancient Sith, when threatened by outside forces, break down in terror and confusion, they don't have a good track record....and Luke's order of Jedi tends to be significantly stronger than the rest.

Now, Bor:
1. In a fleet battle, Sith would be exterminated. Their ships and fighting strategies involved 'rush and hope we hit something' and.....well, that was it. They were cowardly with no finesse at all.

2. Good thing the number of Vong are about a billion to one in their favor....you think they wouldn't start killing Sith eventually? This 'Ancients were godly' thing has got to stop. And when have Sith LITERALLY moved faster than the eye can detect? No hyperbole, no metaphor, stated in clear black and white

3. Retconned then. Take it up with Dan Wallace. And since the last battle of the Lettow was NOT the Battle of Corbos were the Dark Jedi were exiled and didn't 'flee'...

4. Take it up with Golden Age of the Sith. The Sith had remained in their own space and had never ventured into unknown regions since the dark Jedi'd arrived. Hence Naga's frustration

5. Give me a -So, one of them screaming "The Republic! The Republic has come to kill us!" And another howling "Why couldn't we sense them?!" Another: "Are our powers in the Force weakening?!" They were terrified at the prospect of two scouts from the Republic and they didn't even remember what the Jedi WERE until Gav and Jori brought it up. And where's this 'the strong ruled' rule come from anyways? Ludo says himself either he and Naga will be elected Dark Lord and it takes Sadow finally challenging him....when they promptly abandon the fight.

6. The Sith never faced a single Jedi on Koros Major, one Jedi on Kirrek and four Jedi on Coruscant....all of their forces couldn't defeat five Jedi. I tremble.

7. Vaporize the Vong fleet? The Sith empire had....two stars? Three maybe? The entire Vong fleet wouldn't even FIT into Sith space-and yeah, they could take millions of worlds. They took half the galaxy. Once more: The sith failed to take Coruscant in infantile stages. Vong took it in a firmly stronger age. The Sith failed to take the Empress Teta system. The Vong took over Hutt space and beat the Hapans and fought the Chiss AND took the Tetans worlds. You think the Sith would have the guts to vaporize their empire? And do what then? And opposed to a force they can't sense in the force that'll begin tossing moons at their worlds, destroying their entire system.

8. Error in the game. How'd the Star Forge map get into Naga Sadow's tomb now? And the Star Forge would be pitifully easy to destroy. They'd only have to divert gravity and sending it into Rakata

9. The Sith species was force sensitive with no knowledge of their power until the Dark Jedi arrived.

10. The second the Vong attack the meditation sphere, those illusions are gone was my point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Ancient Sith, when threatened by outside forces, break down in terror and confusion, they don't have a good track record....and Luke's order of Jedi tends to be significantly stronger than the rest.


No. Wrong. When they are threatened by Jedi. And when they fight against Jedi. Luke's entire order of Jedi tends to be stronger than what exactly ? Other Jedi ? Ok. Sith Lords ? Did you miss the fact that the NJO people seem to be that powerful because they use stuff invented by the Sith ?



Again: Bias. Give me some proof that not a single Sith would be able to use "tactics". May I remind you that the Vong got crushed pretty much when Ackbar got involved. They don't have any military genious behind their plans either.



Was that you who argued that I'm not the one to question the ideas SW EU authors have for their creations. Anderson descripes the Ancient Sith as "godlike" (literally) in the narration of the TOTJ comics and therefore they are. Period. And because you want to assume that they can't move that fast they simply can't ? Force speed is some basic ability and they'll be able to use it. I wonder how something that can't be seen would look in a comic...rofl...



I don't need to take it up with Dan Wallace since you have nothing except the fact that some people after the battle of Corbos went to the Sith Empire. Where is you source that their weren't Dark Jedi after the first great shism went there ? That somebody in the Han Solo trilogy thinks all of Xendor's followers were extinct when you know that this is wrong because at least his lover escaped ? So you use a statement which is false anyway to argue starwars.com and therefore Lucasfilm ?



They didn't travel into Republic space but as you might see when you look onto a map of the Star Wars Galaxy their are tons of worlds apart from Republic space. They feared to expand their Empire over a certain point because being afraid to hit Republic space yet there is much space in the oposite direction to conquer in case you haven't noticed...



Yeah. They were screaming "the Republic" and not "oh my god...some unknown enemy..." See the difference ?
And now you're pwning yourself again. The strongest shall rule is not a valid rule ? Then please tell me why Sadow has to challenge Kressh for the title of a Dark Lord in a fight ? Because the strongest politician rules, eh ? And they promptly abandoned the fight because Ragnos spirit shows up and told them to stop...



Yeah. Again the entire Jedi Order was on vacation on the other side of the Galaxy because we only see four people...
I've only seen less than a dozen Jedi fighting Anakin and his clone troopers when he attacks the temple in ROTS. And I've only seen 50 Clone Troopers. Does that mean there weren't more Jedi / Clones ?



The Sith Empire had "hundrets of planets" on which people lived which does - in terms of the SW universe - mean they had control over dozens of star systems. The Vong fleet wouldn't fit into Sith space ? What do you think how many ships you can fit into a single solar system ?
And they took half the Galaxy ? I wonder how they did manage to kill only 365 Trillion beings while doing so when Coruscant alone has 1 Trillion inhabitants...



You're still missing the fact that Coruscant in the NJO didn't have thousands of force users on the planet.



I've explained that before and since you seem as you don't want to read it anyway I won't explain it again...



Of course...but first, I fear, they would have to find it. And "error in the game" ? How can something that is only mentioned in a game (Ajunta Pall and the Star Forge) can be some error in the continuity if it can't be contradicted ?



Wrong. They just didn't use their power in a way Jedi would do it. The Witches of Dathomir as well as the Miraluka or the Rakata were all force sensitive and used the force but different from the Jedi. The Sith did it with "spell casting" but they still used it.



The meditation sphere which isn't needed to create illusions ?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Ancient Sith, when threatened by outside forces, break down in terror and confusion, they don't have a good track record....and Luke's order of Jedi tends to be significantly stronger than the rest.

When did they break down in terror and confusion? If they were so scared, why did they pwn the Empress Teta system for so long? When has Luke's Order ever done anything on the scale of the Ancient Sith?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, Bor:
1. In a fleet battle, Sith would be exterminated. Their ships and fighting strategies involved 'rush and hope we hit something' and.....well, that was it. They were cowardly with no finesse at all.

Sidious was a coward too. Or wait, is it really cowardice or rather the intent of putting your life on the line as few times as possible?

Like I said, the Ancient Sith can turn the dovin basals back on the Yuuzhan Vong ships can they would be able to take out the largest Yuuzhan Vong fleet we saw(500 capital ships) in less then an hour using less then three hundred men.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Good thing the number of Vong are about a billion to one in their favor....you think they wouldn't start killing Sith eventually? This 'Ancients were godly' thing has got to stop. And when have Sith LITERALLY moved faster than the eye can detect? No hyperbole, no metaphor, stated in clear black and white

You do realize that each Sith is worth tens of billion of Vong, don't you? They can attack a worldship. Whenever the Vong use a dovin basal

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Retconned then. Take it up with Dan Wallace. And since the last battle of the Lettow was NOT the Battle of Corbos were the Dark Jedi were exiled and didn't 'flee'...

What makes you think that is official?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Take it up with Golden Age of the Sith. The Sith had remained in their own space and had never ventured into unknown regions since the dark Jedi'd arrived. Hence Naga's frustration

That doesn't mean they weren't accomplished warriors. There were plenty of civil wars when they weren't united against a common enemy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Give me a -So, one of them screaming "The Republic! The Republic has come to kill us!" And another howling "Why couldn't we sense them?!" Another: "Are our powers in the Force weakening?!" They were terrified at the prospect of two scouts from the Republic and they didn't even remember what the Jedi WERE until Gav and Jori brought it up. And where's this 'the strong ruled' rule come from anyways? Ludo says himself either he and Naga will be elected Dark Lord and it takes Sadow finally challenging him....when they promptly abandon the fight.

Lets see, who did the Ancient Sith fight last time? Was it the people who could defeat Leviathans in combat? Was it the people from the Hundred Year Darkness, who made the other people seem weak? Was it the same people who the Vong are not? The same people are as far as we know unrivaled by Jedi from any other area? Yes, it was. They didn't know what it was that they were going to be fighting.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. The Sith never faced a single Jedi on Koros Major, one Jedi on Kirrek and four Jedi on Coruscant....all of their forces couldn't defeat five Jedi. I tremble.

Were all their forces fighting just five Jedi or are you subject to hyperbole?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Vaporize the Vong fleet? The Sith empire had....two stars? Three maybe? The entire Vong fleet wouldn't even FIT into Sith space-and yeah, they could take millions of worlds. They took half the galaxy. Once more: The sith failed to take Coruscant in infantile stages. Vong took it in a firmly stronger age. The Sith failed to take the Empress Teta system. The Vong took over Hutt space and beat the Hapans and fought the Chiss AND took the Tetans worlds. You think the Sith would have the guts to vaporize their empire? And do what then? And opposed to a force they can't sense in the force that'll begin tossing moons at their worlds, destroying their entire system.

Actually it would, I suggest you check you estimates next time.
Also note that the Vong took a little less then a third of the galaxy. Again, I tell you to check your estimates.
The Sith wanted to take Coruscant intact, the Vong planned on destroying everything that was previously on it. There is a world of a difference there.
The Sith don't need to destroy their own worlds. They can destroy the Vong ones easily in a worst case scenario. Before that they would destroy the Vong with other techniques that cause less damage to the galaxy itself.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Error in the game. How'd the Star Forge map get into Naga Sadow's tomb now? And the Star Forge would be pitifully easy to destroy. They'd only have to divert gravity and sending it into Rakata

Because it was put there. The Infinite Empire once inhabited Korriban, but the Sith defeated the 500 Empire world and reclaimed their worlds.

That's assuming they can get in close enough. The Vong use dovin basals to control gravity. Gravity that is affected by the force. The Sith can rather easily turn it back on the ship generating it, destroying the Vong vessel with no damage done to the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
9. The Sith species was force sensitive with no knowledge of their power until the Dark Jedi arrived.

Any proof of this? Just because a Jedi faction wasn't there doesn't mean they didn't understand their power. Look at the Sorcerers of Tund or the Jensaari, for example.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
10. The second the Vong attack the meditation sphere, those illusions are gone was my point.

Assuming they ever make it to it. It would be easy for Naga to make several thousand illusions of his sphere while the other Sith bend away the Vong plasma fire with the force(because it is affected by the force and the power of the Ancient Sith this will be easy for a modest Sith Lord) and then turning the dovin basals back onto the Vong ships, destroying any enemy fleet in impunity.

For both of you, I'm getting tired of continuosuly writing replies to both:

1. When do the NJO fighters use what the Sith invented?

2. Considering everyone seems so hung up on how Anderson tells and doesn't show....I'm sure they were godlike until Naga ruined them completely.

3. The last battle of the Legions of Lettow was not the battle of Corbos. End of story. Arden Lyn was put out of comission for 25,000 years and one person is not the Legions of Lettow. I'm afraid you DO need to take it up with dan because he wrote the Essential Chronology. An officially licensed book, whereas your quotes just says "Well....it happened." Not when. and the Dark Jedi were actually exiled, not 'thought dead.'

4. Look at another map: Sith space has Empress Teta to the right, Republic anywhere else.

5. Wow, great Sith, stopped by a dead guy and don't bother to rESUME the fight after Ragnos tells them the winner will make the history of the Empire. And once more: Why does Ludo speak of being 'elected?'

6. Well, the Ancient Sith hadn't fought.....anyone in 2000 or as you say, 25,000 years. They hadn't left their own space in all that time. Kressh says that himself.

7. Stop avoiding this and face it: THE SITH WERE DESTROYED ON THREE WORLDS! Anderson never even HINTS there were mroe than five Jedi fighting the Vong and ONLY Odan and Ooroo were on Kirrek, there wasn't a single Jedi on Koros Major and four of them led the attack on Coruscant. That's all that was seen, two of those were confirmed facts in the comic....We saw a Sith lord killed by angry prisoners...And yes, he was a Lord, we saw him at the council next to Shar Dakhan

8. The Sith tried to take Korriban INTACT? Explains why they started firing at it indiscrimately....Sadow wasn't interested in preservation, he said they'd level everything to make way for the new empire.

9. Thousands of Force Users on Coruscant? You'll need proof now.

10. Where did the Miraluka and Dathomiri learn to 'spellcast?' The Jedi? The Miraluka were close with the Order. The Dathomiri were taught by a former Jedi knight and her daughters. The Jensaari were founded by an Anzati Dark Jedi...

11. More continuity errors from KOTOR. This 'Infinity Empire' thing flies in the face of the Sith empire as is. And since it blatantly contradicts sources from the Chronology even before the New One...

12. Umm....the Meditation sphere is what's needed to create illusions. It amplies the illusions to the degree Naga needed.

And Glentract... one Sith lord worth a billion of Vong? That doesn't help your credibility. What 'Other techniques' would the Sith use on the Vong? Direct Force attacks...canonically stated not to work...Naga Sadow COULDN'T 'bend plasma' away. And dovin basals, by your own words, create very small black holes that can be shut off in an instant. Plenty civil wars? Proof.