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I need trying to find the The Top Ten Jedi, Jedi/Sith during the Clone Wars. I formulated a list, but can edit it because I don't know if that Jedi could beat that other Jedi. HOWEVER, I made my list by looking at the threads based here on KMC.



TOP JEDI

1.) Yoda
2.) Mace Windu
3.) Obi-Wan Kenobi
4.) Anakin Skywalker
5.) Cin Drallig
6.) Quinlan Vos
7.) Luminara Unduli
8.) Plo Koon
9.) Ki-adi Mundi
10.) Kit Fisto


TOP JEDI/SITH

1.) Yoda
2.) Darth Sidious
3.) Mace Windu
4.) Count Dooku
5.) Obi-Wan Kenobi
6.) Anakin Skywalker
7.) Cin Drallig
8.) General Grievous (doesn't count, but still)
9.) Quinlan Vos
10.) Sora Bulq
11.) Assaj Ventress
12.) Luminara Unduli

Only three to three matches are allowed.
Stop copying each other by making way too speculative matches like these. The rules serve their purpose in that aspect.

If you include people like General Grievous and Assaj Ventress then:

1. Yoda.
2. Mace Windu.
3. Darth Sidious.
4. Darth Tyranus.
5. Anakin Skywalker.
6. Obi Won Kenobi.
7. Plo Koon.
8. Cin Drallig.
9. Kit Fisto.
10. Quinlan Vos.

1. Darth Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Mace Windu
4. Anakin (ROTS)
5. Darth Tyranus
6. Obi-Wan (ROTS)
7. Darth Vader (ROTS, before getting injured)
8. Plo Koon
9. Luminara Unduli
10. Sora Bulq
11. Depa Billaba
12. Cin Drallig
13. General grievous
14. Quinlan Vos
15. Asajj Ventress
16. Kit Fisto
17. The dark Jedi that hangs out with Asajj in Clone Wars Volume 6 (I think it's called on the battle fields or something like that).
18. Ki-Adi-Mudni
19. J'ai Maruk
20. Neeja Hylcron (the dude from Jedi Trail)

Yoda(Sidious is stronger in the force, but Yoda is better overall)
Sidious
Dooku
Mace
Obi-wan
Anakin/Vader
Cin
Depa
Sora
Asajj
Quin lain
Ki-Adi
Plo Koon
Aayla

Thanks, I will take this into consideration.

BTW, darthsith19, I believe the dark Jedi you were looking for in your list # 17, I think it's Tol Skorr.

Originally posted by Master Vos
BTW, darthsith19, I believe the dark Jedi you were looking for in your list # 17, I think it's Tol Skorr.
Thanks!

How does he die in the end? Quinlan?

Clones, presumably.

Nope, Quinlan survives Order 66. It says that right now he is in the jungles of Kashyyk. At least that's what the Republic Comics say.

Republic # 83 talks about it. Haven't read it though.

No, I mean Tol Skorr.

No one knows how/when/if Quinaln dies, but he's around to help a young Han Solo later on...then wipes Han's memory using the force...

Tol Skorr: killed by Quinlan on Saluecami (is that how you spell it)

Ok, thanks, what about that dark jedi female who serves under Dooku?

And I killed an NPC on Star Wars Galaxies today called Janus....
He was basically cut in half and buried in between sand and an exploded
speeder bike, surrounded by bandits....

Is that a premonition of things to come?

You mean Assaj or Kadrian Sey? As for Kadrian, killed by Vos on Kiffex (Vos's homeworld) when the Dark Acolytes went to go murder Sheyf Tinte, leader of Kiffex. Kadrian was about to kill Tinte when Vos killed her. However, Tinte killed Vos's family, and Dooku showed this to Quin by giving him an object of Tinte's. Vos used psycometry and he found out. He then gave into his hate and killed Tinte ironically. He then became Dooku's assasin.

It's found in Clone Wars Comic #4 Light and Dark.

She was killed on Kiffex....

*pulls out CW Volume 4*

Ahh yes, i see now.

Originally posted by overlord
Only three to three matches are allowed.
Stop copying each other by making way too speculative matches like these. The rules serve their purpose in that aspect. Oops, it wasn't a fight. I should be bashed now.

1. Mace Windu.
2. Master Yoda.
3. Darth Sidious.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker.
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
7. Luminara Unduli.
8. Depa Billaba.
9. Plo Koon.
10. Sora Bulq.

Why do you bring back old, useless threads? This doesn't even belong in the versus section.

Oh, and: Yoda & Sidious are each greater than Windu.

For one thing, when he was elected to the council, he was the youngest to ever do so.

Name one thing that Sidious or Yoda did that compares to Windu singlehandedly defeating an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
For one thing, when he was elected to the council, he was the youngest to ever do so.

Name one thing that Sidious or Yoda did that compares to Windu singlehandedly defeating an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle.

I believe that happened in the Clone Wars cartoons. Am I correct?

So what if it did. And people refer to the feat in many different sources.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
So what if it did. And people refer to the feat in many different sources.

Lol . . .

You do understand that the Clone Wars cartoon overpowers characters with abilities that are inconsistent with the movies, right?

I believe in the Clone Wars cartoons, Yoda was able to:

- lift a C-9979 landing platform.
- Use mind-tricks on Captain Typho (who is hardly weak-willed).
- Dissipate and redirect Force Lightning (which we KNOW that Mace cannot do).

Then of course you have several sources that indicate Mace being second only to Yoda. That means he was top-dog on the Council and in power as far as the Jedi are concerned - except for Yoda, who is more powerful than him.

The databank says that. The databank also refers to Sidious vs Yoda as "the duel between the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark sides".

Mace is good. Extremely good. On Dooku's level. But, Yoda and Sidious are more powerful.

Originally posted by Escape81
Lol . . .

You do understand that the Clone Wars cartoon overpowers characters with abilities that are inconsistent with the movies, right?

I believe in the Clone Wars cartoons, Yoda was able to:

- lift a C-9979 landing platform.
- Use mind-tricks on Captain Typho (who is hardly weak-willed).
- Dissipate and redirect Force Lightning (which we KNOW that Mace cannot do).

Clone wars overpowers characters? Since when?

And LMAO. How do those 3 feats exaggerate Yoda's power?

Originally posted by Escape81
Then of course you have several sources that indicate Mace being second only to Yoda. That means he was top-dog on the Council and in power as far as the Jedi are concerned - except for Yoda, who is more powerful than him.

The databank says that. The databank also refers to Sidious vs Yoda as "the duel between the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark sides".

Mace is good. Extremely good. On Dooku's level. But, Yoda and Sidious are more powerful.

And you also have many sources stating otherwise. Many people considered Yoda to be the wisest, and Windu to be the most powerful.
Then there is also the fact that Windu was able to defeat Sidious while Yoda was not.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Clone wars overpowers characters? Since when?

And LMAO. How do those 3 feats exaggerate Yoda's power?

1. Have you seen a C-9979 landing craft? Might wanna check it out.

2. Point being that "mind tricks only work on the weak minded", and yet it seems sufficient enough to work on Padme Amidala's head of security.

3. Let's see. Yoda is the only person who can handle Palpatine's lightning at point-blank range. He can not only handle it, but he can redirect it as well.

As I recall, Windu got his ass fried by Palpatine.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
And you also have many sources stating otherwise. Many people considered Yoda to be the wisest, and Windu to be the most powerful.
Then there is also the fact that Windu was able to defeat Sidious while Yoda was not.

In a saber-to-saber confrontation! And then there's the whole possibility that Palpatine was going easy on Mace.

a) Mace Windu has seen more frontline action than almost any Jedi. He has an obligation to actively train with his lightsaber. He's in combat against Palpatine, who is the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, as well as a guy who hasn't actively touched his lightsaber for the better part of 13 years. I hope that he can at least go toe-to-toe with him.

b) Palpatine wasn't actively using the Force. He fought against Yoda a hell of a lot harder than he did against Mace. Palpatine > Mace in the Force and Yoda > Mace in the Force.

c) The battle with Yoda and Palpatine ended in a stalemate. Why? Because they were the most powerful practitioners of the Force in the movie. In the entire PT. Mace is like Dooku. Just Number Two.

Aaaaaaand, in all cases, Windu has been cited to be second only to Yoda. In Dark Rendezvous (which is just as canon as Clone Wars), Windu himself states that he is not Yoda's equal or superior.

Originally posted by Escape81
1. Have you seen a C-9979 landing craft? Might wanna check it out.

2. Point being that "mind tricks only work on the weak minded", and yet it seems sufficient enough to work on Padme Amidala's head of security.

3. Let's see. Yoda is the only person who can handle Palpatine's lightning at point-blank range. He can not only handle it, but he can redirect it as well.

As I recall, Windu got his ass fried by Palpatine.

1. Hardly too impressive. Yoda lifting one is still not as great as what Windu achieved.

2. Shows that Yoda has a strong willpower, but hardly too impressive.

3. Did you watch ROTS? The bit where Windu redirected Palps lightning back and messed up his face?


The point is, these feats don't put Yoda above Windu and you have still failed to prove tha the CW cartoon exaggerates the abilities of the jed.

Nope. Means that Yoda is Windu's definate superior in the Force.



Y'know, your "hardly too impressive" bit is getting old. I could easily say the same about Revan-related crap. But, anyways...

It shows that Yoda can defy the limits of the mind trick to use on "strong willed" people. Mace never did it. Thus again proving Yoda is superior to Mace in the Force.



I watched him do it with his lightsaber - but when he was unarmed, he got fried.

Originally posted by Escape81
In a saber-to-saber confrontation! And then there's the whole possibility that Palpatine was going easy on Mace.

a) Mace Windu has seen more frontline action than almost any Jedi. He has an obligation to actively train with his lightsaber. He's in combat against Palpatine, who is the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, as well as a guy who hasn't actively touched his lightsaber for the better part of 13 years. I hope that he can at least go toe-to-toe with him.

b) Palpatine wasn't actively using the Force. He fought against Yoda a hell of a lot harder than he did against Mace. Palpatine > Mace in the Force and Yoda > Mace in the Force.

c) The battle with Yoda and Palpatine ended in a stalemate. Why? Because they were the most powerful practitioners of the Force in the movie. In the entire PT. Mace is like Dooku. Just Number Two.

Aaaaaaand, in all cases, Windu has been cited to be second only to Yoda. In Dark Rendezvous (which is just as canon as Clone Wars), Windu himself states that he is not Yoda's equal or superior.

GL confirms that Sidious was trying his hardest and that Windu was superior.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
GL confirms that Sidious was trying his hardest and that Windu was superior.

Quit twisting his words. He confirmed nothing of the sort.

He said that Mace "overpowered" Palpatine in that situation.

Originally posted by Escape81
Nope. Means that Yoda is Windu's definate superior in the Force.

Hardly. Mace has shown far greater feats in the CW cartoons, Shatterpoint, The Movies and other EU related stuff.

Originally posted by Escape81
It shows that Yoda can defy the limits of the mind trick to use on "strong willed" people. Mace never did it. Thus again proving Yoda is superior to Mace in the Force.

Prove that Mace couldn't do it.


Originally posted by Escape81
I watched him do it with his lightsaber - but when he was unarmed, he got fried.

That was because Anakin had just sliced his arm off and he was in agony.

Originally posted by Escape81
Quit twisting his words. He confirmed nothing of the sort.

He said that Mace "overpowered" Palpatine in that situation.

He really did.

You say so. But, as I said before, your opinion = not very valuable.



Why didn't he use it on Palpatine when he went to arrest him?



He had one arm left, and if he is as powerful as you say, he would've deflected it with ease, conquered the pain, killed Palpatine, and went medieval on Anakin.

But *gasp* he didn't!

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
He really did.

No, he really didn't.

He said that Mace "overpowered" Palpatine in that situation, not that he was more powerful. I argued this before. If Palpatine was holding back, Mace still - by definition - overpowered Palpatine and there is a LOT of evidence that indicates Palpatine holding back.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Hardly. Mace has shown far greater feats in the CW cartoons, Shatterpoint, The Movies and other EU related stuff.



Prove that Mace couldn't do it.




That was because Anakin had just sliced his arm off and he was in agony.


Lol, Mace has shown better feats because we haven't seen Palpatine do shit until ROTS. He was a chancellor during the clone wars, what would we see him do, WTFowning the senate?

That was in regards to Yoda Kamikz.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
That was in regards to Yoda Kamikz.

Like I said. In Dark Rendezvous (which is as valid canon as CW), Mace Windu himself says to Chancellor Palpatine that "he is not Yoda's equal in peace or war".

Yoda > Windu.

Originally posted by Escape81
You say so. But, as I said before, your opinion = not very valuable.



Why didn't he use it on Palpatine when he went to arrest him?



He had one arm left, and if he is as powerful as you say, he would've deflected it with ease, conquered the pain, killed Palpatine, and went medieval on Anakin.

But *gasp* he didn't!

LMAO
Now you're just being silly.

Originally posted by Escape81
Like I said. In Dark Rendezvous (which is as valid canon as CW), Mace Windu himself says to Chancellor Palpatine that "he is not Yoda's equal in peace or war".

Yoda > Windu.

Mace Windu was humble. Yoda was clearly arrogant.

Narraration states Yoda's stronger than Mace

Mace displayes greater power then both Yoda and Sidious imo. 'Narraration' isn't going to convince me otherwise.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Mace Windu was humble. Yoda was clearly arrogant.

ROFL!!!!!

That is the absolute poorest argument that I have ever seen.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Mace displayes greater power then both Yoda and Sidious imo. 'Narraration' isn't going to convince me otherwise.

He does neither.

Sidious > Windu.
Yoda > Windu.

Deal with it.

Originally posted by Escape81
He does neither.

Sidious > Windu.
Yoda > Windu.

Deal with it.

Windu defeated Sidious.
Sidious defeated Yoda.

Windu > Yoda/Sidious.

Deal with it.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Windu defeated Sidious.
Sidious defeated Yoda.

Windu > Yoda/Sidious.

Deal with it.

Rofl.

Windu managed to defeat Palpatine in a lightsaber-to-lightsaber confrontation where Palpatine could have been restraining himself.

Yoda and Sidious stalemated.

Get over yourself. The databank and several other sources, as well as Windu's own testimony disagree with you.

Originally posted by Escape81
Rofl.

Windu managed to defeat Palpatine in a lightsaber-to-lightsaber confrontation where Palpatine could have been restraining himself.

Yoda and Sidious stalemated.

Get over yourself. The databank and several other sources, as well as Windu's own testimony disagree with you.

ROFL?

1. Windu defeated Sidious in a saber duel, and also was able to match Sidious raw power in the force with his defence, hence Sidious' deformed face.

2. While Yoda and Sidious displayed equal skill, Sidious still defeated him.

Windu won in a saber fight (where as Escape said Sids might have restrained himself). If Sids used the force he would win. Here are some major factors to what happened when Sidious used the force....

His face wasn't deformed, it revealed his "true" face, his dark side face. Seriousley, lightning doesn't make your voice deeper and doesn't turn your eyes yellow....

Sidious was in one heck of a disadvantage at that place. He was lying down against a wall with Windu right above him, Windu had a clear advantage....

Sidious stopped because he wanted Anakin to act, not because he was tired (which he clearly wasn't). If you watch carefully, you can see that Mace hand is hit by the lightning just at the end before Sidious stopped, if Sidious would continue Mace would have lost balance with the saber and only had 1/2 his strenght to hold it with, he would be overpowered. Sidious stopped as I said, because he wanted Anakin to act, if he wasn't there Mace would have died.....

Top 10:
1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Mace
4. Anakin/Vader (ROTS)
5. Tyranus
6. Obi-Wan (ROTS)
7. Cin Drallig
8. General Grievous (pre-injuries)
9. Sora Bulq
10. Luminara Unduli or Obesssion Asajj (not sure there)

Just Jedi:
1 Yoda
2. Mace
3. Anakin (ROTS)
4. Obi-Wan (ROTS)
5. Cin Drallig
6. Luminara Unduli
7. Plo Koon
8. Quinlan Vos
9. Ki-Adi-Mundi
10. Kit Fisto/Shaak Ti

I would say:
1. Yoda
2. Sidious
3. Count Dooku/Mace Windu
4. Count Dooku/Mace Windu
5. Anakin Skywalker
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi
7. Assaj Ventress
8. Cin Drallig
9. Plo Koon
10. Sora Bulq

That would be my ideal list, however I am a bit hazy on the strength of characters after Obi-Wan.

^I'd agree, but Bulq should be a bit higher. Depa should be there too.

Just Jedi who never fall to the darkside:
1. Mace Windu
2. Yoda.
3. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
4. Luminara Unduli.
5. Plo Koon.
6. Kit Fisto.
7. Cin Drallig.
8. Master Tholme.
9. Tsui Chou.
10. Quinlan Vos.

This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are jedi that I've missed.

My list.

1. Yoda/Sidious.
2. Yoda/Sidious.
3. Mace. (Anakin could challenge him though)
4. Anakin.
5. Dooku.
6. Obi-Wan.
7. Depa.
8. Grievous.
9. Cin.
10. Sora.

You put Cin above Sora?

I just watched the fight scene. Ki-Adi-Mundi was the only person to attempt to forcepush him, and he missed. Shaak Ti telekenetically threw some rubble at him, but he dealt with it with his saber. And Vious you claim to be a swords expert right? If you were, you would know that Shaak Ti fended off Grievous far better then Mundi did.

Edit - Oops, wrong thread.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
You put Cin above Sora?


Well yeah, since Sora got beaten by Quinlan Vos. But I'm don't know if that was luck or anything, I might change just those two, but else I'm fine with the list....

1. Mace Windu.
2. Master Yoda.
3. Darth Sidious.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker.
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
7. Luminara Unduli.
8. Depa Billaba.
9. Plo Koon.
10. Sora Bulq.

Quinlan got extremely lucky imo. IIRC, Secura and Tholme were using battle meditation to help him.

Did they even know battle meditation?

I'm not sure if it was battle meditation, but I'm pretty sure it was something similar.

Hmm, on Wookieepedia it says that Vos managed to "silence his inner demons" and win. Besides, he was already wounded before the fight started....

Oh right, I must have remembered wrongly. I still think Quinlan got lucky.

Meh yeah probably. I wouldn't bet my money on him in the majority of the fights, but still....

It was kind of similar to how he beat that really powerful Anzati dark jedi (Volde Karkho?)

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
You put Cin above Sora?
So did I, because Dooku said Cin could beat Grievous in LOE. This was Grievous before he got injured and also in LOE is says that Grievous is Dooku's strongest Dark Side Acolyte, meaning stronger than Sora. So Cin > Grievous > Sora. Yeah, okay, so A > B and B > C doesn't necessairly mean that A > C, right? But as that's all we've got to go off about Cin...



It was kind of similar to how Obi-Wan beat Maul. Sora had Quinlan beaten but then he was to busy gloating and Vos managed to get his saber back and stab Sora while Sora was being a cocky bastard.

Originally posted by darthsith19
So did I, because Dooku said Cin could beat Grievous in LOE. This was Grievous before he got injured and also in LOE is says that Grievous is Dooku's strongest Dark Side Acolyte, meaning stronger than Sora. So Cin > Grievous > Sora. Yeah, okay, so A > B and B > C doesn't necessairly mean that A > C, right? But as that's all we've got to go off about Cin...

Wasn't Sora dead by LOE.

Saber dueling:
1. Mace Windu/Count Dooku.
2. Mace Windu/Count Dooku.
3. Yoda/Darth Sidious.
4. Yoda/Darth Sidious.
5. Depa Billaba.
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli/Anakin Skywalker.
7. Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli/Anakin Skywalker.
8. Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli/Anakin Skywalker.
9. Sora Bulq.
10. Cin Drallig.

Strength in The Force:
1. Mace Windu.
2. Yoda/Darth Sidious.
3. Yoda/Darth Sidious.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Plo Koon/Obi-Wan Kenobi/Anakin Skywalker.
6. Plo Koon/Obi-Wan Kenobi/Anakin Skywalker.
7. Plo Koon/Obi-Wan Kenobi/Anakin Skywalker.
8. Assaj Ventress.
9. Kit Fisto.
10. Quinlan Vos.

I thought yoda was number one in the force?

NIMO.

Hmmm. Your lists are slightly off. Mace certainly shouldnt be top of the force abilities. That would go to Yoda/Sidious. Him and Count Dooku would then tie for 3rd and 4th place IMO.
However I mostly agree with your saber skills list. However I think that Yoda is at the top of the list. And that Depa Billaba should be below Anakin and Obi-wan.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Saber dueling:
1. Mace Windu/Count Dooku.
2. Mace Windu/Count Dooku.
3. Yoda/Darth Sidious.
4. Yoda/Darth Sidious.
5. Depa Billaba.
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli/Anakin Skywalker.
7. Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli/Anakin Skywalker.
8. Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli/Anakin Skywalker.
9. Sora Bulq.
10. Cin Drallig.



How can you put Dooku above Yoda? Yoda defeated him twice, and one of those times where when he was on a dark influenced planet (boost for Dooku's power) and was buisy helping a women who Dooku tossed out from the window. Yoda still won....


And Mace has admitted himself that Yoda is better in the force. Mace had to rescue a pair of kids in Shatterpoint from a large object (I don't remember what it was), and he said that Yoda would simply had lifted it, but Mace couldn't.....
The most Mace has shown us is tossing around droids, Yoda has shown himself capable of lifting the Trade Federation ships which contains an ARMY of both droids and veichle if we are to count the CW....

'How can you put Dooku above Yoda? Yoda defeated him twice, and one of those times where when he was on a dark influenced planet (boost for Dooku's power) and was buisy helping a women who Dooku tossed out from the window. Yoda still won....'

Yoda was at an advantage due to his style yet Dooku was still able to fend him off. I have still yet to read Dark Redezvous.

How did Yoda have an advantage thanks to his style? Dooku had all the advantages in the fight, Yoda still, while helping others through the force, managed to beat Dooku....

Yoda utilises Ataru, which naturally counters Makashi. Go to the 'Shaak Ti versus Saesee Tinn' thread for further details.

I didn't find anything specific with Ataru>Makashi there. Ataru has almost no defence, and Yoda pretty much defended when he concentrated on saving that woman. And the same thing has happened to others. Depa, a Vaapad master, said by Mace to have developped her swordsmanship above the Vaapad he created, and as good if not a better swordsman than himself. She + 2 other jedi masters did not get close to hitting Yoda when he was unarmed. Now Yoda is attacking, they won't really stand a chance. Either they are defending or they are hitting nothing but air and getting tired... Yoda was the best duellist of the PT...

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Makashi is a great form, don't get me wrong. It was bred for graceful dueling and has elegence and class, however when up against an overwhelming form such as Djem So/Schien, Ataru or Juyo/Vaapad, it's really not too impressive as the user is not able to maintain the concentration that is required to utilise Makashi effectively. Remember, not every Makashi dueler is as great a dueler as Count Dooku. Count Dooku is extremely experienced and would thus be able to contend with almost anybody, superior form or not but someone like Shaak Ti would easily get overwhelmed by a Schien user imo.

Overall:
1. Mace Windu.
2. Master Yoda.
3. Darth Sidious.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker.
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi.
7. Luminara Unduli.
8. Depa Billaba.
9. Plo Koon.
10. Sora Bulq.

Where did you get this fact? And really, everyone Yoda had faced has had the same hard time against him, thing is, how do you put Dooku above Yoda since he was better than Dooku? Yoda's defence (which should suck for an Ataru user) was actually better than anyone elses in the jedi order, and his attacks was overwhealming and he was a small target to hit, next to impossible.

However he was still not able to overcome Dooku, which he especially should have if he was actually better due to his form.

I didn't get it from anywhere. I'm just incredibly good at interpreting things like that.

They fought for about 30 seconds then Dooku put Obi and Ani's life to risk so Yoda had to save them, thus he escaped. He would not hold out for long.... I remember Mace fighting Dooku for that amount of time too, except it didn't show as clearly who the winner would be, Mace didn't overcome Dooku.


And I still wonder where it says that Ataru is much better against Makashi than other forms....

That's my point. He was an incredibly great duelist to be able to withstand both Mace and Yoda who have counteractive forms. he could possibly be the best duelist in the PT imo.

'And I still wonder where it says that Ataru is much better against Makashi than other forms....'

Not just Ataru. Juyo/Vaapad and Djem So/Schien too.

But where is the source....?

The source is my brain. It's obvious. Makashi requires the utmost concentration, which is why overwhelming forms do so well against it.

So this would render Makashi as one of the worst duelling forms, because it cannot handle anything that is overwhealming? Makashi is very good at defending and it's precise attacks would be what's neccessary to take down a bad defender wouldn't it? Either way, Yoda has won over others who are not weilding Makashi.

And Dooku still had major advantages. What would you choose? Either have a style that is made for duelling in lightsaber to lightsaber combat, having your opponent distracted with helping someone with the force, and being boosted by the dark side, or....face a makashi wielder with Ataru but with all those disadvantages?

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Wasn't Sora dead by LOE.
Nope.

And GM Nebaris, my brain says Makashi is extremely well at defeating Ataru user's.

A Makashi user relies on the utmost concentration to duel effectively. Ataru is a completely overwhelming offensive form, which shatter's the Makashi user's concentration.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
A Makashi user relies on the utmost concentration to duel effectively. Ataru is a completely overwhelming offensive form, which shatter's the Makashi user's concentration.

No, in most cases, Makashi is the greatest form. Meaning, on average, it would trump all other forms. The reason that Count Dooku could not overwhelm Yoda is that Yoda is simply more powerful than he is.

Dooku used Makashi to stalemate with Windu on Boz Pity.

Wasn't that when he fled from Mace? I'd barley call fleeing a stalemate...

Makashi may have been bred for dueling, however it is extremely hard to utilise at full efficiency. Only the best of the best could do it even in the hardest circumstances, such as Exar Kun or Count Dooku.

Originally posted by kamikz
Wasn't that when he fled from Mace? I'd barley call fleeing a stalemate...

They fought for less than a minute. Dooku was on his way off-planet. He realized that they were near equals (like with Yoda and Sidious) and knew that:

a) He was in a hurry.

b) He had a 50% chance of losing.

So, he had Grievous's Magnaguards blindside Mace and he left.

How was Dooku in a hurry? He said that they would leave the jedi to him, when Mace confronted him he suddenly wanted to leave. He wasn't really that eager to get away until Mace arrived...

That could be the case, OR he saw that Mace was superior to him and decided to leave. Can we really tell which?

It was the same as Dooku vs. Yoda. Dooku realised that Yoda would win and he fled. Which makes sicne since the OS says Mace and Yoda are even.

Yeah pretty much. There is no more proof to saying that Dooku fled against Mace because he thought he had a 50% chance of winning than saying he fled from Yoda cause he thought he had 50% there to.

Saber combat

1)mace
2)yoda
3)sidious
4)depa
5)anakin
6)count dooku
7)kit fisto/obi-wan
8)shaak ti
9)plo koon
10)sora

Force Strength

1)yoda
2)sidious
3)dooku
4)kit fisto
5)obi-wan/anakin
6)cin drallig
7)depa
8)shaak ti
9)plo koon
10)sora

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Clone wars overpowers characters? Since when?

And LMAO. How do those 3 feats exaggerate Yoda's power?

FOOL,SECURITY GUARDS ESPECIALLY A CAPTAIN WON'T BE FOOLED BY THAT. PLUS THOSE LANDING PLATFORMS ARE HUGE NOT EVEN YODA COULD DO PUSH TWO TOGETHER WITHOUT SHOWING THE LEAST BIT OF EFFORT. GET OFF OF THE DRUGS AND THINK BEFORE YOU POST.

oops forgot to add mace after dooku

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Hardly. Mace has shown far greater feats in the CW cartoons, Shatterpoint, The Movies and other EU related stuff.



Prove that Mace couldn't do it.




That was because Anakin had just sliced his arm off and he was in agony.

I'm sorry but as I recall Windu was hardly regarded as a threat to DOOKU. Now on the other hand this same man ran away from Yoda twice. I mean Mace was disposed of by two droids in Obsession. Yoda wasn't GRAND master for nothin

Originally posted by Hokage Yoda
I'm sorry but as I recall Windu was hardly regarded as a threat to DOOKU. Now on the other hand this same man ran away from Yoda twice. I mean Mace was disposed of by two droids in Obsession. Yoda wasn't GRAND master for nothin

No. Mace was considered by Dooku a threat. Second only to Yoda.

Yes, Nebaris. Yoda held higher seniority and a higher rank than Mace, and forced Dooku to flee both times they engaged in battle.

Originally posted by Escape81
No. Mace was considered by Dooku a threat. Second only to Yoda.

Yes, Nebaris. Yoda held higher seniority and a higher rank than Mace, and forced Dooku to flee both times they engaged in battle.

However when did dooku fear mace as he did Yoda

Originally posted by Hokage Yoda
However when did dooku fear mace as he did Yoda

I'm sorry... I think you must have misinterpreted what I said.

I agreed that Dooku considered Yoda more of a threat than Mace. But, I disagreed with the statement that Dooku didn't consider Mace a threat at all.

He did.

And as for Dooku fearing Yoda... I don't think it was really a fear. I think it was a grudging respect for his superior abilities that Dooku's own arrogance refused to let budge.

If Dooku feared anyone, he feared Darth Sidious the most. After all, despite Yoda's advantage and superiority over Dooku, Dooku didn't shrink away from confronting him (AotC and Dark Rendezvous). He just fled when he knew that he couldn't win.

i change my mind for force strength ...i think anakin would go between kit and obi. so more like:
1)yoda
2)sidious
3)dooku
4)mace
5)kit fisto
6)anakin
7)obi-wan
8)cin drallig
9)depa
10)shaak ti

maybe anakin would be tied with fisto mmm...not sure.

Originally posted by jedi_tek
i change my mind for force strength ...i think anakin would go between kit and obi. so more like:
1)yoda
2)sidious
3)dooku
4)mace
5)kit fisto
6)anakin
7)obi-wan
8)cin drallig
9)depa
10)shaak ti

maybe anakin would be tied with fisto mmm...not sure.

Kit's above Anakin in Force Strength?

I'd like to know how you define Force Strength. If you mean in terms of Force connection and attunement, then Anakin would be number one, with Sidious and Yoda being tied for number two.

The order is this.

1. Yoda/Sidious
2. Yoda/Sidious
3. Windu
4. Anakin
5. Dooku
6. Obi-Wan
7-10 don't matter much really, though I suppose 7 could go to Cin, at least in saber abilities.

Now as for the Mace > Yoda stuff? WTF??? are you (mostly Nebaris) kidding me?

LOL

Mace has stated on 3 occasions that he was Yoda's inferior. And one was in direct response to him having to lift a landing craft off a cliff. Which he stated that he COULD NOT DO, but Yoda would simply "lift it up and float it to safety while uttering one of his maxims" Mace then admits in the next sentence that since he is not capable of doing something that requires that kind of power, and so he would have to be more creative. Then, later he admits that Kar Vastor is stronger then he is (in raw force power), and then says that Kar is on the same level as "Yoda or Young Anakin Skywalker". THEN as Escape81 pointed out, in Dark Rendezvous, Windu himself says again to Palpatine that "he is not Yoda's equal in peace or war".

People (mostly Nebaris) are just being utterly foolish.

Yoda>Mace in everything.

and since Yoda and Sidious stalemated, Sidious>Mace in force power... Although maybe equal in saber combat at least Sidious>Mace in force power, by a lot.

Actually . . . I think it is this.

1. Master Yoda/Darth Sidious
2. Master Yoda/Darth Sidious
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Mace Windu (I consider him to be Dooku's superior by a slight margin)
5. Count Dooku
6. Obi-Wan
7-10... I dunno.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
7-10 don't matter much really, though I suppose 7 could go to Cin, at least in saber abilities.

Not a bad list, just saying I'd put Depa Billaba above Cin (if you'd put Cin for 7). She mastered Form VII, and Vaapad, as well she's noted as a master swordsman (or swordswoman). Yoda also speaks volumes on Depa's behalf.

Personally, I'd go with Escape's list though. Adding Depa Billaba, and Cin Drallig for the 7 and 8 slots.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Not a bad list, just saying I'd put Depa Billaba above Cin (if you'd put Cin for 7). She mastered Form VII, and Vaapad, and considering she's noted as a master swordsman (or swordswoman) as well. Yoda also speaks volumes on Depa's behalf.

Personally, I'd go with Escape's list though. Adding Depa Billaba, and Cin Drallig for the 7 and 8 slots.

Motoko also left out the part that she'd go with my list because she's madly in love with me.

Just like Rex and Ush are.

Yeah, forgot to mention that part.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Yeah, forgot to mention that part.

And that she has been stalking me for three ye - I see you behind that bush, Motoko! Get out!

Originally posted by Escape81
Actually . . . I think it is this.

1. Master Yoda/Darth Sidious
2. Master Yoda/Darth Sidious
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Mace Windu (I consider him to be Dooku's superior by a slight margin)
5. Count Dooku
6. Obi-Wan
7-10... I dunno.

Yea I had actually thought about putting Anakin higher. I think that in reality Dooku and Windu are about equal. Equal enough to stalemate. But Anakin beat Dooku, so he goes above Dooku. But there's just something that tells me he wouldn't fair as well against Windu. I just don't think Anakin has the discipline to beat Windu's Vaapad. Nor would Anakin be able to overwhelm Windu with his strength or speed like he did Dooku. It'd be close, but as of ROTS, I'm inclined to give the fight to Windu.

But in terms of numbering everyone, its prolly more like

1. Yoda/Sidious
2. Yoda/Sidious
3. Mace/Anakin/Dooku
4. Mace/Anakin/Dooku
5. Mace/Anakin/Dooku
6. Obi-Wan.

But I still think Mace would beat Anakin, though thats just my opinion.

the reason i put kit above anakin is cuz kit has mastered manipulation of water. Anakin may have way more mediclorians than fisto and he may be the "chosen one" but he has not mastered any force technique that i know of.

No. Sidious couldn't even last 3 minutes against him in a saber fight. Force powers are great 'n all, but Mace's saber pretty much made his "awesome force power!" obsolete.

1. Yoda
2. Palpatine (Based on the alleged disarment and Palpy screaming near the end; either way they're virtual equals)
3. Mace Windu
4. Count Dooku
5. Anakin Skywalker
6. Depa Billaba
7. Obi-Wan Kenobi
8. Sora Bulq
9. Asajj Ventress
10. Cin Drallig

* Yes, Anakin beat the Count. For some strange reason people are quick to put Anakin over Dooku and not Mace over Sidious and Depa over Mace. It... can't only work one way.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
No. Sidious couldn't even last 3 minutes against him in a saber fight. Force powers are great 'n all, but Mace's saber pretty much made his "awesome force power!" obsolete.

1. Yoda
2. Palpatine (Based on the alleged disarment and Palpy screaming near the end; either way they're virtual equals)
3. Mace Windu
4. Count Dooku
5. Anakin Skywalker
6. Depa Billaba
7. Obi-Wan Kenobi
8. Sora Bulq
9. Asajj Ventress
10. Cin Drallig

* Yes, Anakin beat the Count. For some strange reason people are quick to put Anakin over Dooku and not Mace over Sidious and Depa over Mace. It... can't only work one way.

I agree with this list except I would put the Count and Mace on the same level. There simply isnt enough evidence to prove ones superiority over the other.

I would put Mace as number 2 at leas. HE IS black.

1)Sidious
2)Yoda
3)Mace
4)Dooku
5)Anikan
6)Obi-Wan-Kenobi
7)Plo Kloon
8)Asajj Ventress
9)Cin Drallig
10)Kit Fisto

GE makes a really good point. Enough of this Anakin >> Dooku crap.

Who is GE?????


I belive that Anakin defeated Dooku in a pure fight in ROTS, but every time, I doubt it. I would put them pretty close to eachother, but I would say Anakin has a chance more than saying he is winning, same with Dooku....

Sorry, I meant GH.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
GE makes a really good point. Enough of this Anakin >> Dooku crap.
But he does, every source we have says that it was a fair fight, nothing says that Dooku was holding back. If Dooku was, for some foolish reason, holding back then that's Dooku being arrogance. Either way, Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

Originally posted by darthsith19
But he does, every source we have says that it was a fair fight, nothing says that Dooku was holding back. If Dooku was, for some foolish reason, holding back then that's Dooku being arrogance. Either way, Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

OK this is what really pisses me off. When everyone says Anakin bet Dooku fair and square. I accept Anakin won, its almost impossible to say he lost when it was Dooku lying dead on the ground. But Dooku was fighting TWO opponents at once. You say Anakin is better because he won - when in reality Anakin and Obi-Wan won. If it had been a fair one on one fight the outcome would be quite different. You cant say that Anakin is better based on one battle - especially one with so many factors as the one in ROTS. Had Obi-Wan not been there Dooku wouldnt have become so tired. If Dooku wasnt tired he would be able to fight better against Anakin. If he was able to fight better against Anakin he might have won. So please, do you see my point?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
OK this is what really pisses me off. When everyone says Anakin bet Dooku fair and square. I accept Anakin won, its almost impossible to say he lost when it was Dooku lying dead on the ground. But Dooku was fighting TWO opponents at once. You say Anakin is better because he won - when in reality Anakin and Obi-Wan won. If it had been a fair one on one fight the outcome would be quite different. You cant say that Anakin is better based on one battle - especially one with so many factors as the one in ROTS. Had Obi-Wan not been there Dooku wouldnt have become so tired. If Dooku wasnt tired he would be able to fight better against Anakin. If he was able to fight better against Anakin he might have won. So please, do you see my point?

What pisses me off. Is that in this thread you say that he was so sitred from fighting two people at once. But in the next vs. thread you'll say that he effortlessly fought both of them at the same time.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
What pisses me off. Is that in this thread you say that he was so sitred from fighting two people at once. But in the next vs. thread you'll say that he effortlessly fought both of them at the same time.

Now I remember why I fell in love with you.

Marry me.

Exactly my point. And Mace takes Sidious in a fair fight and Depa takes Mace in a fair fight yet Sidious and Mace are higher than Mace and Depa (respectively) on nearly everybody's list. Consistency is needed, people.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Exactly my point. And Mace takes Sidious in a fair fight and Depa takes Mace in a fair fight yet Sidious and Mace are higher than Mace and Depa (respectively) on nearly everybody's list. Consistency is needed, people.

What are you getting at? SW is fully of inconsistencies.

Yoda is supposedly able to WTFpwn Sidious but tells Luke in RotJ not to underestimate his power?

Dooku has no problem fighting Yoda but pisses his pants when he is even in a hologram connection with Sidious?

Dooku can battle Yoda, but flees when Mace confronts him?

Mace is number two in the order, but can defeat Sidious whereas Sidious stalemates Yoda?

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Exactly my point. And Mace takes Sidious in a fair fight and Depa takes Mace in a fair fight yet Sidious and Mace are higher than Mace and Depa (respectively) on nearly everybody's list. Consistency is needed, people.
No, Depa doesn't take Mace. When did this happen? Mace beat Sidious in a saber fight but Sidious is stronger ebcause he could have taken out Mace with the Force even if Anakin hadn't entered. A simple Force Push and Mace is out the window. Sidious is the strongest, than Mace, then Depa, and the majority of the people here will agree with me, I think everyone here would agree than Depa is the last out of those 3.

I wasn't referring to the Universe itself; only some lists here.



Yoda isn't able to do that.



Whether those fears were warranted is another question. Sidious is known for being sly and cunning; known for having a mental dominance over others. Dooku might not be an exception.



Let's look at the situations:
1) Yoda vs Dooku. They fight, Dooku flees.
2) Yoda vs Dooku 2. They fight, Dooku loses and Dooku flees.
3) Yoda vs Mace. They fight, Dooku flees.

Where's the inconsistency?



This is where it gets complicated. Mace beat Sidious in a close-quartered chamber and when Sidious pulled out his force powers, Mace could counter it with his saber.

Yoda stalemated Sidious in a fight where he didn't have a saber (in the force fight, of course) in a huge chamber absolutely littered with obstacles.



Shatterpoint. Depa beats Mace in a saber fight. Granted, Mace wasn't 100%.



You're speculating. If he could destroy Mace with his powers (Something Lucas explicitly says he tried to do) he would have.

Wrapping up, my question to some of you: Why do you guys put Anakin over Dooku and not Mace over Sidious?

Escape81 got owned.

Err, that should be Dooku vs Mace*, not Yoda vs Mace

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Err, that should be Dooku vs Mace*, not Yoda vs Mace

You owned me.

But, then again, there is completely 100% irrefutable evidence that Dooku lost to Anakin because he was inferior (coming from the script, commentary, Making of Star Wars book, and all that jazz) - whereas the exact situation with Sidious remains inconclusive.

lol I was just kidding.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Escape81 got owned.

I sure did, and even had the balls to confess it.

Oh, and I'm sorry... for taking your reserved spot in the "Gets Owned" department. You can have it back any time you want to debate with me.

Cool thanks, I'll be sure to tell you when I want the position back

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Cool thanks, I'll be sure to tell you when I want the position back

kisses

Originally posted by Escape81
Now I remember why I fell in love with you.

Marry me.

yep, they always come running back...

No, he had like a hundred injuries and wasn't trying to hurt Depa. And, if I remember correctly, he still beat her because she collapsed from stress during the middle of the duel. Mace was the last one standing.

Lucas says he faked being to weak. That means he really wasn't to weak and if he wasn't to weak he could have saved himself. Remember when Mace lifts his lightsaber over his head to finish off Sidious? That left his entire body vulnerable to Force Lightning or whatever else Sidious used could use on him. Or a Force Push out the window.

The thing is DS, Mace would be able to sence it if Sidious were to have launched an attack, and defend against it.

He faked being weak after his attempt to destroy Mace failed. If Sidious could have force pushed Mace out the window, why didn't he before? Since a saber doesn't block telekenisis, I don't see where you're going with this.

Because he wanted to turn Anakin perhaps?

Originally posted by darthsith19
But he does, every source we have says that it was a fair fight, nothing says that Dooku was holding back. If Dooku was, for some foolish reason, holding back then that's Dooku being arrogance. Either way, Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

I agree. Never trust a man with a beard.

I think the NEC sums it up best: "Anakin unleashed his rage and Dooku fought for his life.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
The thing is DS, Mace would be able to sence it if Sidious were to have launched an attack, and defend against it.
Even if Mace did sense it do you really think he'd be powerful enough to block a Force Push from Sidious? No, at best they'd both fly back like Anakin and Obi-Wan did, meaning Palpatine would fly into the room and Mace out the window. Ether way, Mace would be f*cked.

No, he fakes being weak even as he was zapping Mace. Faked being weak, meaning really he was not weak. If he wasn't weak then he still had strength to stop Mace. Why didn't he? Because he was trying to turn Anakin to the Dark Side.

Mace wasn't exactly effortlessly holding off the lightning either...

sidious probably foresaw anakin coming to his office to stop mace from killing him so he probably faked that he was weak so anakin himself could stop mace and completing his journey to the darkside. sidious had won from the start , he held off on mace so anakin would be responsible for helping to kill mace and sidious used those events to turn anakin. so therefor sidious was stronger then mace all along.