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Okay: what's the deal with how much, say, Superman or Wonder Woman can lift flying, as opposed to lifting via pure muscle power?

Which way are they stronger?
Why is one way stronger than the other?
Can one kinda lifting power be used to augment the other?

What's the blinkin' story?

I always though that they could lift more when they are not flying.

In a Supes comic he stated that things are easier to lift when he flies.

I can't remember the exact comic, but I'll find it.

Flying makes it easier. Adds momentum the non fliers dont have.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
In a Supes comic he stated that things are easier to lift when he flies.

I can't remember the exact comic, but I'll find it.

That was in Superman #1 in 1986, John Byrne's first issue.

I think if you look back, stories show very dramatic feats when flying or using flight as a force of will to move an object. Greater than actual physical strength. And different from hitting power in a fistfight, I would say.

Originally posted by Mindship
Okay: what's the deal with how much, say, Superman or Wonder Woman can lift flying, as opposed to lifting via pure muscle power?

Which way are they stronger?
Why is one way stronger than the other?
Can one kinda lifting power be used to augment the other?

What's the blinkin' story?

I was going to start a simillar forum !

This should be linked with Wickermans Strength Force theory !

When will people realize...moving a moon, dragging a planet like War World, doesn't count as a feat of strength.
I'm crazy? Listen.
The source of Superman's powers have often been discussed. There is enough to reason his power of flight, like most who don't use magic or technology, is psionics. It could never be super-leaps - that's what the Hulk does - because to stop and hold yourself in mid air is power from the mind. Flying with something heavy is letting the power from the mind take the will of the object. Even if one could physically push a moon or planet by strength, it would be impossible unless you were standing on an object of greater mass, to push off of ie. A Bigger Planet. The power that drives someone to fly through the air, is the same power used to move any object of huge mass. How much mass, depends on the willpower capability of the hero. If the Silver Surfer used the Power Cosmic to push a planet, no one would think it was a feat of strength. But it is the same principle: power from the mind, not muscle. This is something that applies to Supes, Wonder Woman, Martain Manhunter and others.

Back to this...I haven't seen She-Hulk since her strength and skill got a good upgrade, but I think Diana's speed on the ground could still give her an edge to win most matchups.

When I've brought this up in the Superman thread, the difference I made is that unlike a real telekenetic, Superman cannot lift an object from afar. He has to be in physical contact with it, for it to be lifted as he wills himself to lift off. As for standing on the ground and lifting something like a long ship or supertanker, this would be a physical impossibility because lifting it at any point would result in the ship cracking into pieces around you - try lifting a watermelon with the head of a pin. Even if that pin was adamantium, it would sink in. When we see it happen in a comic, we can only assume the hero is keeping it intact through some psionic force or magic enchantment. This applies to people in both Marvel and DC, if you think I'm singling out DC by the way.
Why some characters have to use more effort than others is a question to ask creators at Marvel and DC. Superman is an alien being who is power-charged by scientific means not completely explained; and has a strong mental will that can resist mental manipulation to a degree. Rogue is not strong mentally, likely never had enough will to perform a major dragging or lifting in air, but since her flying powers come from Miss Marvel, you should look at her. And, through raw power alone, we have seen Thor lift the Midgard Serpant, who mass is equal to the Earth's; and in Marvel 1602, he carries a large wooden ship through the air by enchantment of mjolnir. And pre-phoenix Jean Grey had her limits to what her mind could take.

In all honesty we know the real answer; this is once again an example of BAD comic science. IMO the artist/writers intentions, are to depict these characters vast strengths. Marvel tend to use a more realistic approach, which means we rarely see such emphatic feats

But your Byrne esque theory does hold some ground. Psionics and magic are both mythical forms of energy (E.g. psionics being the more 'scientific' form of magic). Although these energies are mythical they both follow the rules of nature in that they can be increased by energy transfer from separate sources.

This is where we can answer spetznaz, question about how Supes and co can perform more impressive feats to the likes of Rogue and Jean !

Its down the energy sources available. As we know Supes and Dianna have access to near inexhaustible energy sources (The magics of the gods, and the sun) where as Jean and Rogue have comparable limited sources. The amount of energy available to Supes and Diana allow them to transfer this power into what can only be described as the 'Lifting Force'. Similar to Wickermans 'strength force' it allows them to defy the laws of physics and perform these seemingly impossible impossible feats.

wow...you talk alot

Originally posted by Fishy 500
I was going to start a simillar forum !

This should be linked with Wickermans Strength Force theory !



g.m.t.a.

Originally posted by Mindship
g.m.t.a.



Indeed they do ... Indeed they do

Originally posted by insane genis
wow...you talk alot

Most of that soliquay is mine - he just pasted it. Where's my credit, Fish??

Well if it was you roughrider, you deserve some big props.
Heck, we both do. You did the part for using strength in the air, i did it for using strength on the ground

Originally posted by olympian
Flying makes it easier. Adds momentum the non fliers dont have.

Originally posted by roughrider
Most of that soliquay is mine - he just pasted it. Where's my credit, Fish??

Sorry Mann .... This is some of the best stuff i have read in ages,and i felt it needed to be saved !!!!!!!!!!!! Its very similar to Wicker man's Strength Force theory though !

Mindsip i feel a strength system coming on .... one to do with who can tap into the Strength Force the best !

It will be based on physical attributes and energy harnessing abilities, and will be split into two parts; Durability/Balance Force and the Lifting Force.

Originally posted by Fishy 500
.... Mindsip i feel a strength system coming on .... one to do with who can tap into the Strength Force the best !

angel + flex = tomcat

As food for thought: I heard once, many years ago, that if one could take all the muscles in the average adult male body, arrange them so they could all pull in the same direction at the same time (with direct leverage), all that muscle force could lift about 50 tons (about 35 tons for the average adult female).

Hmmm...it would be interesting to consider if this could form some kinda basis or source for psionic strength, especially in flying.

Also interesting is that in psychokinetic experiments (starting with Prof Rhine at Duke University in the 1930s), it seemed as if physical variables (eg, mass, shape, size) of the target had no bearing on PK effectiveness, whereas psychological factors (eg, ability to concentrate, motivation, fatigue) did.

Hmmm...

Personally, I am inclined to view any "psionic" approach not from a classical physics point of view (a given amount of energy moving from point A to point B through space and time), but from a quantum-mechanics point of view, specifically a "biased probability" approach. This would have the advantage of emphasizing psychological over physical variables. Of course, I don't know if that would necessary be a better interpretation as to why, say, Superman can hoist way more than Jean.

Originally posted by Mindship
angel + flex = tomcat

As food for thought: I heard once, many years ago, that if one could take all the muscles in the average adult male body, arrange them so they could all pull in the same direction at the same time (with direct leverage), all that muscle force could lift about 50 tons (about 35 tons for the average adult female).

Hmmm...it would be interesting to consider if this could form some kinda basis or source for psionic strength, especially in flying.

Also interesting is that in psychokinetic experiments (starting with Prof Rhine at Duke University in the 1930s), it seemed as if physical variables (eg, mass, shape, size) of the target had no bearing on PK effectiveness, whereas psychological factors (eg, ability to concentrate, motivation, fatigue) did.

Hmmm...

Personally, I am inclined to view any "psionic" approach not from a classical physics point of view (a given amount of energy moving from point A to point B through space and time), but from a quantum-mechanics point of view, specifically a "biased probability" approach. This would have the advantage of emphasizing psychological over physical variables. Of course, I don't know if that would necessary be a better interpretation as to why, say, Superman can hoist way more than Jean.

"Superman can hoist way more than Jean."

He has a far greater energy source ... She is limited by the her imagination .... while Supes just transfers his bodies energies into the 'Strength Force' .....

If this were the case Juggernaught would have to be towards the top of the heirachy in the Durability Force , while supes would be around the top in the Lifting Force !

To take into consideration:

1. Mental Fatigue vs. Muscle Fatigue and how much that varies, given different bodily elements like cap with his eternal "protein shake" blood and not encumbered by lactic acids, etc.

2. Golem creatures like Colossus and Thing and how their powers manifest, since it's not really muscles, but not TK either

The thing that worries me about a conventional/comicological interpretation of "psionics" is that, IMO, there may be temptation for something like PIS. I've seen a lot of posts where so-n-so says something like, "Well, it's telekinetic!" and that's that, w/o any explanation as to How or Why. Kinda like with "magic." I dunno...just throwing the "magic words" around -- psionic, telekinetic -- just seems too convenient, too easy, like this is the answer for everything without going any deeper.

Yes, yes, yes...it is just comics, I know. It is for debating these Big Questions that KMC exists.

Originally posted by Mindship
The thing that worries me about a conventional/comicological interpretation of "psionics" is that, IMO, there may be temptation for something like PIS. I've seen a lot of posts where so-n-so says something like, "Well, it's telekinetic!" and that's that, w/o any explanation as to How or Why. Kinda like with "magic." I dunno...just throwing the "magic words" around -- psionic, telekinetic -- just seems too convenient, too easy, like this is the answer for everything without going any deeper.

Yes, yes, yes...it is just comics, I know. It is for debating these Big Questions that KMC exists.

That's mainly because in the real world there aren't any tk-ers (that i've ever heard of) on the levels of those in comics. Therefore, the boundaries are set by the comic book writers. People will always look down on you if you try to find a real-life equivalent or anything like that. It's called ignorance, and i'm afraid it's all around.

I was thinking a while ago about a new way of looking at TK. Like another kind of energy, which is not shown to the naked eye, that can be manipulated by certain characters.