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Black Bolt



vs.



Black Adam

This would be a great battled, I feel that Black Bolt can take Black Adam to the woodshed. Black Adam will give im hell though, damn this would be a great fight. BB 6.5/10

I'm thinking Black Adam flies through BB's head like he did to Spectre!

Blackagar Boltagon ftw.

black adam does to Black bolt what he did to psycho mantis...

i mean... psycho pirate

adam, but if bolt catches em with the scream

Black Adam.

I even think that Adam would be mad/durable enough to take the Scream and rip BB head off afterwards.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I even think that Adam would be mad/durable enough to take the Scream and rip BB head off afterwards.




All credibility is now out the window


Stalemate each get 5/10

Originally posted by Tony Stark


All credibility is now out the window


Stalemate each get 5/10
Would you like to know what it takes to ko adam?

Adam sodomizes him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Would you like to know what it takes to ko adam?

It's just a whisper away...

Originally posted by Tony Stark
It's just a whisper away...
The same which couldn't ko gladiator spoken in the ear. Lulz.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The same which couldn't ko gladiator spoken in the ear. Lulz.


BA is no Gladiator

BA is no chump, absolutely.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The same which couldn't ko gladiator spoken in the ear. Lulz. Which instance are you referring to? Cause that whisper has rocked Gladiator before.

Black Bolt has a really strong record against all physical opponents, and we haven't really seen him pushed to his limits in that kind of encounter. I think I'll take Black Bolt for 6/10.

Black Bolt is decently fast, but nowhere near Adam.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
BA is no Gladiator
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/UncannyX-Men-107_14.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/UncannyX-Men-107_15.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/owned/UncannyX-Men-107_18.jpg
That would never happen to adam.
Originally posted by Existere
Which instance are you referring to? Cause that whisper has rocked Gladiator before.

Black Bolt has a really strong record against all physical opponents, and we haven't really seen him pushed to his limits in that kind of encounter. I think I'll take Black Bolt for 6/10.
When Lockjaw had to BFR him. If that's the case, then adam doesn't have a single combat loss in his career and has never been koed except a tesserect in his head. Chew on that.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When Lockjaw had to BFR him. If that's the case, then adam doesn't have a single combat loss in his career and has never been koed except a tesserect in his head. Chew on that. Black Bolt's matched Gladiator in hand to hand for a few pages before without having to use any of his versatility, until he nearly KO'd Glads with a whisper. This was all back in the day, before he grew some more backbone and started really letting loose with his voice.

I just see Black Bolt's powerset as being really advantageous for fighting bricks, and history tends to agree with me. In a forum fight, to the best of their ability, Black Bolt should take this more often then not imo.

Black Bolt is too slow in a forum setting.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Black Bolt is too slow in a forum setting. For Black Adam's usually fighting speed? No he isn't. Black Bolt has his feats of crossing the earth at super sonic speeds, as well as within space, but I'm sure he doesn't match up to Adam's top speed feats. He's fast enough to keep up with average Adam, so it really depends on how you see the forum rules affecting Adam's fighting style.

On top of that, he has his shields and energy manipulation to even any speed-based odds. He's also certainly durable enough to take an initial attack, and all he needs to do is make any sort of noise as he's being struck to counter any ensuing strikes.

Adam has a speed advantage for sure, I just don't see it as being enough to counter Black Bolt's significant range, versatility and damage output advantages.

Originally posted by Existere
Black Bolt's matched Gladiator in hand to hand for a few pages before without having to use any of his versatility, until he nearly KO'd Glads with a whisper. This was all back in the day, before he grew some more backbone and started really letting loose with his voice.

I just see Black Bolt's powerset as being really advantageous for fighting bricks, and history tends to agree with me. In a forum fight, to the best of their ability, Black Bolt should take this more often then not imo.
Based on what loss of adam? You are talking about black bolt having a very good track record but Adam hasn't LOST A SINGLE DAMN TIME post-crisis.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Based on what loss of adam? lolwut?

I don't need to base it on a particular instance. Adam is a brick, and is poorly equipped to fight somebody like Black Bolt.

Feel free to disagree, but if you want to challenge that, you're going to need to start with something other than 'he's never lost!'.

Ranged attacks are the main advantage BB has going for him. BA has his "SHAZAM!" bolts, but he has to be pretty close to go that route--and I'm unsure how those would affect BB anyway (though they'd likely incapacitate him.)

I'm leaning toward Adam here... Mainly because I view him superior to BB in every other way.

Originally posted by Existere
For Black Adam's usually fighting speed? No he isn't.

Contradictory.

You mentioned forum setting for why Black Bolt should have an advantage, since he could let full force blasts loose and not have to be hampered by the need to just 'whisper' out of character restrictions.

Same goes for Bladam's speed.

I said BB is fast, yes.
Unfortunately being merely super sonic (and this is more travel speed as opposed to outright physical speed) is a far cry from Black Adam's speed.

There's nothing keeping Adam from blitzing him off the bat in a forum setting.

Originally posted by Existere
lolwut?

I don't need to base it on a particular instance. Adam is a brick, and is poorly equipped to fight somebody like Black Bolt.

Feel free to disagree, but if you want to challenge that, you're going to need to start with something other than 'he's never lost!'.
So is superman, but that never stopped him before. Oh and that "near ko", I wouldn't call it that

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7900/93502716fz8.th.jpghttp://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1913/46006397bd0.th.jpghttp://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6908/92116221tf3.th.jpg
Surfer and midnight sun have also survived a whisper from black bolt without any problem.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Contradictory.

You mentioned forum setting for why Black Bolt should have an advantage, since he could let full force blasts loose and not have to be hampered by the need to just 'whisper' out of character restrictions.

Same goes for Bladam's speed.

I said BB is fast, yes.
Unfortunately being merely super sonic (and this is more travel speed as opposed to outright physical speed) is a far cry from Black Adam's speed.

There's nothing keeping Adam from blitzing him off the bat in a forum setting. False.

What I said is that Black Bolt's character these days is a lot more prone to cutting loose with his voice and his powers, unlike back in the day when he was stalemating and beating Gladiator and Hulk while holding back to whispers.

So no, I'm still operating under the assumption that they fight to the best of their ability while remaining in character.

As for blitzing, I'd argue that Bladam's character, Black Bolt's durability and Black Bolt's vocal responses keep a blitz from being effective.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So is superman, but that never stopped him before. Oh and that "near ko", I wouldn't call it that

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7900/93502716fz8.th.jpghttp://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1913/46006397bd0.th.jpghttp://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6908/92116221tf3.th.jpg
Surfer and midnight sun have also survived a whisper from black bolt without any problem. The fight I was referring to was when Black Bolt went a few rounds of hand to hand with Gladiator in - I want to say - Inhumans Vol. 4? Whenever Ronan abducted the Inhumans, the same battle where Black Bolt whispering into the ground caused volcanic activity and earthquakes on the other side of the planet.

Black Adam, incidentally, is much more of a brick and fights like much more of a brick than Superman does. Back up your arguments with a little bit of logic and we could get a real discussion going.

I don't deal with this arbitrary 'in-character' type arguments.

They get us nowhere and attempts to give those who don't have counters for feats some wiggle room to argue.

Black Adam is thousands of times faster than Black Bolt. This is fact. Black Adam's powerset since his inception has included this superpower. And he has, in-character, used his speed plenty.

Therfeore, he has the explicit powerset for it, has used it enough to absolutely know that he can do so, and in a forum setting they fight to the BEST of their demonstrated ability.

And for Adam, his demonstrated ability is that he's, again, thousands of times faster than Black Bolt. BB will be in slow motion to him.

Durability? It will help him with an Adam just standing toe to toe with him, but with BA punching at full out berserker speed, no.

Besides that, he's not going to be able to counter with his radial blasts if he's getting blitzed. He's not going to get any breathing room whatsoever.

Besides this, the Marvel family has impeccable regeneration. CM for example healed back to whole after being blown inside out by a tesseract bomb, in a single panel. BB is not going to do worse than that.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I don't deal with this arbitrary 'in-character' type arguments.

They get us nowhere and attempts to give those who don't have counters for feats some wiggle room to argue.
Then... don't deal with it? But if you want to discuss how Adam, written well, would approach a fight, then you'll need to account for how he fights in a comic, and I'll do the same for Black Bolt.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Therfeore, he has the explicit powerset for it, has used it enough to absolutely know that he can do so, and in a forum setting they fight to the BEST of their demonstrated ability.
Right. Adam's demonstrated ability consists of fighting like a brick. He doesn't pull the moves that Superman has pulled to vibrate through attacks or appear simultaneously all around an enemy, and he doesn't apply volleys of lightspeed blows against enemies that he considers beneath him. He strikes hard and fast, and then he acts prideful and sneers.

He's up against a character with VASTLY more damage output than he has, and that damage is applied as exactly the kind of area attacks that Black Adam is never written to dance around.

If you want to discuss Black Adam as a character, then let's do so.

Why do people here downplay BB speed? He's never been made to look slow . He's gone toe to toe against Thor like characters without using his main weapon ( scream) . Not saying he can beat BA , but I cant believe how he's been portrayed here.

I think this is a very good fight. I'm going to give it a split. 5/10

Originally posted by Existere
Then... don't deal with it? But if you want to discuss how Adam, written well, would approach a fight, then you'll need to account for how he fights in a comic, and I'll do the same for Black Bolt.

I'm not dealing with it, hence I'm not giving your stance any real weight. Because its basically an non-committal admission that if Black Adam fights to the best of his possible ability, then there is nothing Black Bolt can do to counter it. So you attempt to say something along the lines of 'well, if Black Adam doesn't use his abilities as well as he could, then Black Bolt will win'.

Written Well? Good phrase. Written well, Black Adam would use his speed--legit lightspeed+, physically, as in how fast he can think and move his limbs, not simply in flying. Which Black Bolt is a far cry from.

In a cross-over comic, this would be a tremendous fight. The writers would sit down and argue that they are both 'class 100', 'super fast', both can fly, both are super durable, and have a mean streak when it comes to throwing down. They would hand wave any deeper arguments as a good fight will sell more than a squash match.

Unfortunately, on the forum, we break down those things more deeply than actual writers do. And when we do, we come to realize that they are not equal as class 100s by any means, they are not equal in durability and damage soak, and they are worlds apart from each other in super speed levels.

Adam is noticeably stronger, noticeably more durable, has excellent regeneration--putting Black Bolt's trump card in question as a means of winning in the first place--and he is literally thousands of times faster.

On the forum, he wins. 'Written well', Adam is the type to not phuck around in combat. And that would translate well to a forum win.

Bladam via sodomy.

People on this board fight both in character and to the best of their ability. And no, it's not entirely contradictory for them to do that.

Which is why Adam wins decisively.

Its in-character for him to demonstrate speed, and to the best of his ability, he would use it as well as he could. And win.

lol

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Which is why Adam wins decisively.

Its in-character for him to demonstrate speed, and to the best of his ability, he would use it as well as he could. And win.

The argument just becomes whether it would be in character for him to do so.

That's a silly, arbitrary, non-factual argument though. Goes back and forth and has no conclusive end.

Dealing with the facts makes things so much quicker and easier; which are that he's demonstrated a significant speed advantage over his opponent in this thread.




and he was certainly 'in-character' whenever he demonstrated it, afterall, he certainly wasn't pretending to be someone else was he? vin

Originally posted by CosmicComet
That's a silly, arbitrary, non-factual argument though. Goes back and forth and has no conclusive end.

Dealing with the facts makes things so much quicker and easier; which are that he's demonstrated a significant speed advantage over his opponent in this thread.




and he was certainly 'in-character' whenever he demonstrated it, afterall, he certainly wasn't pretending to be someone else was he? vin

So what then, because he has speed, he automatically uses it?

Originally posted by -Pr-
So what then, because he has speed, he automatically uses it?

Since he fights to the best of his ability, absolutely.


The fact that Bladam has to be argued to not be 'in-character' if he uses his speed as well as we know he can, is telling enough for Black Bolt's actual chances; That there is literally no argument for how Black Bolt wins if Black Adam goes all out.

CC, you're loose butthole right now.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Since he fights to the best of his ability, absolutely.


The fact that Bladam has to be argued to not be 'in-character' if he uses his speed as well as we know he can, is telling enough for Black Bolt's actual chances; That there is literally no argument for how Black Bolt wins if Black Adam goes all out.

That's not what that term means; at least not within the confines of the rules.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Since he fights to the best of his ability, absolutely.


The fact that Bladam has to be argued to not be 'in-character' if he uses his speed as well as we know he can, is telling enough for Black Bolt's actual chances; That there is literally no argument for how Black Bolt wins if Black Adam goes all out.

BB has fought stronger and faster characters than BA with greater powersets... So why is he an after thought against him...?

Originally posted by Tony Stark
BB has fought stronger and faster characters than BA with greater powersets... So why is he an after thought against him...?

Gladiator?

He's not stronger OR faster.

Besides that. Black Bolt himself has no speed feats to even suggest he should fight with Gladiator evenly.

He's a super-hypersonic level character, in flight. And some enhanced reactions outside of pure flight, but nothing that any street levelers haven't already done.

Is Black Bolt someone who is going to be able to keep up with a speed-force character on his feet--(or even in the air)? Nope.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Gladiator?

He's not stronger OR faster.

Besides that. Black Bolt himself has no speed feats to even suggest he should fight with Gladiator evenly.

He's a super-hypersonic level character, in flight. And some enhanced reactions outside of pure flight, but nothing that any street levelers haven't already done.

Is Black Bolt someone who is going to be able to keep up with a speed-force character on his feet--(or even in the air)? Nope. Gladiator has feats of being stronger and faster.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
BB has fought stronger and faster characters than BA with greater powersets... So why is he an after thought against him...?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Gladiator?

He's not stronger OR faster.

Besides that. Black Bolt himself has no speed feats to even suggest he should fight with Gladiator evenly.

He's a super-hypersonic level character, in flight. And some enhanced reactions outside of pure flight, but nothing that any street levelers haven't already done.

Is Black Bolt someone who is going to be able to keep up with a speed-force character on his feet--(or even in the air)? Nope.

Originally posted by Mindset
Gladiator has feats of being stronger and faster.

biscuits

It's true.

Few heralds have higher speed/strength feats than Glads.

BA isn't one of them.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Gladiator?

He's not stronger OR faster.

Besides that. Black Bolt himself has no speed feats to even suggest he should fight with Gladiator evenly.

He's a super-hypersonic level character, in flight. And some enhanced reactions outside of pure flight, but nothing that any street levelers haven't already done.

Is Black Bolt someone who is going to be able to keep up with a speed-force character on his feet--(or even in the air)? Nope.




"Gladiator?

He's not stronger OR faster".

Your joking right?

Originally posted by Mindset
It's true.

Few heralds have higher speed/strength feats than Glads.

BA isn't one of them.

Oh, I'm not arguing with you.

As long as we all agree CC is loose butthole right now.

Originally posted by Mindset


As long as we all agree CC is loose butthole right now.



Right now...?

If Gladiator were to go to dc he would be superboy level. mmmaybe. if hes lucky. krypto would own his ass as well.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
If Gladiator were to go to dc he would be superboy level. mmmaybe. if hes lucky. krypto would own his ass as well.

Let's not be silly, now.

Originally posted by Mindset


As long as we all agree CC is loose butthole right now.

For one dude against three who can't really bring a case against what I said?

Not really.

You all should be ashamed at your impotence.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
If Gladiator were to go to dc he would be superboy level. mmmaybe. if hes lucky. krypto would own his ass as well.
Kryto did draw blood form emo boy...

Originally posted by CosmicComet
For one dude against three who can't really bring a case against what I said?

Not really.

You all should be ashamed at your impotence. You have been wrong about everything.

Glads has busted a planet, he has flown 100x ftl, he had a fight with Hyperion where their movements were measured in nano seconds.

What superior feats does BA have?

Originally posted by Mindset
You have been wrong about everything.

Glads has busted a planet, he has flown 100x ftl, he had a fight with Hyperion where their movements were measured in nano seconds.

What superior feats does BA have?

First off Mindset, don't be slow. Read.

I said Gladiator is NOT stronger or faster, not that Adam is better.

(Although he is.)

Glads busted a big rock in space. Black Adam matched Superman in strength. And his strength has been described as possibly above Superman's by other character statements. Even if you don't take it literally, it still undeniably shows that they are at least peers, and that Superman wasn't simply jobbing when they fought--(like he might be jobbing when he fights a Solomon Grundy type.) And Superman's best feats of strength are better than Gladiators. No doubt.

OOOOhhh 100x time light speed in flight statement. Was just waiting for that to show up. That means he can cover in one minute what would take light 100 minutes to cover. That means he can cover one light year in 3.65 days. Light would take over 30 minutes just to get from Jupiter to Earth. And that's just in our tiny little corner of the solar system. Just to give you an idea. Black Adam on the other hand? Has flown from all the way from the other end of the universe to Earth. It took him awhile, but it equates out to much higher than 100x time lightspeed unforuntately. At best, their flight speed is
equal.

Nanoseconds, is good. Black Adam is on that same scale.

Black Bolt however? Is not. That's been the point this whole time.

I'm not slow, you're just dense.

I'm saying Glads has the BETTER high end strength/speed feats.

The big rock that was a planet. Nothing suggests BA's strength is over Supes, in fact, everything points to the opposite.

When has BA ever been shown to be on that scale?

Your point has been wrong the whole time. That'd be like me only using the high end feats of characters and passing that off as the norm. You act like this is your first time debating here.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm not slow, you're just dense.

I'm saying Glads has the BETTER high end strength/speed feats.
You tried to say that and you've failed thus far. It's red herring to the discussion anyway--which is about BB vs BA



There were outside character statements that certainly suggested it. It's not as if this was some supposition created out of nothing. Again, even if you choose to not believe it that's fine,but you have no choice but to accept that he's at least a peer to superman in strength, as he's shown that consistently. He's also stomped other Kryptonians like Powergirl, while weakened. Glad there's no argument that Superman is stronger than Gladiator though.



Ever since he became Black Adam, with the speed of Heru. Ever Since he's been on the scale of other nano-second level guys like Superman and Captain Marvel. Since he's been shown to be fast enough to give guys like Flash some trouble. The guy raced Jay Garrick up to the speed of light point and this was while Jay was stealing his speed the whole time.



Apparently you are forgetting what the whole point has been the entire time; that since they are fighting to the best of they're demonstrated abilities, that we have no choice but to understand that not only is BA stronger and more durable than Black Bolt, but that he's literally thousands of times faster too.

Those are the facts. Anything else, like the 'in-character' arguments, are nothing but subjective, arbitrary points discussions that can have no concrete resolution.

The facts are that if BA fights to his best, BB has no counter. He's not fast enough, period.

Gladiator was just having a weak day when he got beat by BB.
It's THAT simple.

Adam wins here.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
First off Mindset, don't be slow. Read.

I said Gladiator is NOT stronger or faster, not that Adam is better.

(Although he is.)

Glads busted a big rock in space. Black Adam matched Superman in strength. And his strength has been described as possibly above Superman's by other character statements. Even if you don't take it literally, it still undeniably shows that they are at least peers, and that Superman wasn't simply jobbing when they fought--(like he might be jobbing when he fights a Solomon Grundy type.) And Superman's best feats of strength are better than Gladiators. No doubt.

OOOOhhh 100x time light speed in flight statement. Was just waiting for that to show up. That means he can cover in one minute what would take light 100 minutes to cover. That means he can cover one light year in 3.65 days. Light would take over 30 minutes just to get from Jupiter to Earth. And that's just in our tiny little corner of the solar system. Just to give you an idea. Black Adam on the other hand? Has flown from all the way from the other end of the universe to Earth. It took him awhile, but it equates out to much higher than 100x time lightspeed unforuntately. At best, their flight speed is
equal.

Nanoseconds, is good. Black Adam is on that same scale.

Black Bolt however? Is not. That's been the point this whole time.


The statement of Glads flying at 100x the speed of light wasn't just hyperbole it was measured by Reed

Dude. I know.

The point was that 100x lightspeed is not that impressive.

Gladiator, by feats, should be FAR faster than 100x lightspeed in space.

Adam as well, is far above 100x lightspeed in in space.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I'm not dealing with it, hence I'm not giving your stance any real weight. Well then allow me to return the notion, because I don't see your argument as anything other than an incredibly weak defense that doesn't hold up upon analysis of the characters.

This forum consists of debating comic book characters, and to debate characters means assessing both their powers and their effective uses of them in combat.

Were Superman, Wonder Woman or Flash in this debate, then you could take their effective uses of speed in combat and make a real debate out of that one advantage.

Black Adam however fights like a brick, and he doesn't utilize speed for any significant effect in combat, other than allowing him to get in the first shot and to consistently trade punches and parry blows, which is exactly what would happen here.

Unfortunately, he's up against a character who offers FAR greater damage output, FAR greater versatility, and a strong enough physical offense and defense that it's my opinion that Black Adam will be fighting an uphill battle. This, unfortunately for you, doesn't mean that you can rewrite Black Adam's personality any more than I can argue that Black Bolt would immediately shield, and then matter manipulate the shit out of Black Adam's immediate environment, while screaming in his face and controlling his mind - despite all of those also being well within Black Bolt's demonstrated powerset.

He doesn't fight like that, and Teth doesn't speedblitz at FTL while raining heavy blows and screaming SHAZAM!.

Black Adam will use his speed to get an effective first strike. Unfortunately, he won't continue to pour the speed on, and will make the mistake of giving pause. Black Bolt will shout, cry, whatever- doesn't matter. Whispers have KTFO'd Hulk and Gladiator, and so even if really shouting in his face doesn't knock Teth out, it will certainly send him reeling - giving opportunity for more shouting, for Black Bolt to utilize his own ridiculous strength, or to engage his many, many other options to end this fight efficiently and effectively.

Black Bolt has a decisive edge in this match up because Black Adam fights like an ineffective brick who wouldn't take Black Bolt out before it was too late, and that would only require a moment's hesitation. Black Bolt is vicious, has major range and power with his attacks, and has the durability to withstand that initial onslaught.

-------------------------------------

On an aside, do you even know what the word arbitrary means? Or are you just tossing it around, you know... arbitrarily?

Adam crushes him

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Dude. I know.

The point was that 100x lightspeed is not that impressive.

Gladiator, by feats, should be FAR faster than 100x lightspeed in space.

Adam as well, is far above 100x lightspeed in in space.


"Adam as well, is far above 100x lightspeed in in space" Prove it...

Originally posted by Existere
snip for character length.
-------------------------------------

Unfortunately I see nothing here but a more long winded regurgitation of what you said before.

The premise of your points are flawed.

For one, we are NOT arguing characters here. We are arguing feats of characters. We are not writers. We are not bound by the restrictions of having to tell a story like they are. And of course such restrictions can cause clashes with prior established facts within continuity. Which is why forums ever created terms like 'CIS', 'PIS', or designations like 'fighting to the best of their ability', or even giving provisions for threads like 'characters get basic knowledge' of each other.

This is to avoid egregious mistakes that writers make in portrayals.
E.G. Not being realistic with their portrayals. Unfortunately writers are paid to entertain first, realism itself is not important. We have NO such hang ups as this. We have to present things realistically, why? Because we are not writing a story. And because by default with the provisions of these threads we are given no reason or context to believe that 'character' should actually be something that's going to feasibly be a factor--afterall, by default we have two characters placed in a featureless environment and from the start they already know that they are in frame of mind where they are fighting to their best, and that they already know from the start that they will be fighting and have a basic knowledge of their opponent. There is nothing there that provides for a story--and thus no reason to even think about character, as we are talking about a hypothetical fight. The default thread settings basically gives us brainwashed characters that are assumed to not even question why they are where they are or why they are facing who they are facing, they just know that they are supposed to go all out and that they know at least basic info about their sudden opponent. (This is by the default mind you.) So forgive me if I find all this 'in-character this in-character that' talk to be a highly flawed premise to even dwell on from the start, because its pretty much a joke within this entire context.

Furthermore, in the end you simply offer one kind of portrayal of Adam in stories. He is not always one to boast, and he has been written as a man of few words and nearly all action in combat as well. (There of course are problems with that, as characters that can talk, are expected to have dialogue, even in fights--lest we get panels and panels of nothing but silent action.) So its hardly 'unrealistic' to even expect him to simply be completely no-nonsense in a hypothetical fight. See the problem here? We reach a stalemate in determining what is 'in-character' or not. I have no such interest in trading 'IMOs' with anyone over and over.

I like to deal with objective fact. Because its quick and inarguable.

Black Adam is far stronger, far more durable, and again most importantly, is quantifiably thousands upon thousands of times faster--in both propulsion and physical speed/reactions.

The facts here, is that your stance has to rely on the possibility that Adam may provide an opening, as you keep illustrating. (As well as the timid sprinkling of 'in my opinion' here and there.) Black Bolt has no means of winning easily based on nothing but his own actions, not even by his more exotic energy manipulation actions. He has to rely on the possibility that Adam may provide him a chance. As for Adam? He has no such factor hinging on his victory. All he has to do is fight his fight.

And let us talk about the fight, even allowing for 'in-character' for a moment.

Adam has all the physical advantages, but speed is the most important one to discuss. Again, Adam is thousands of times faster. He is the kind of character that can literally approach lightspeed on foot. On Earth. A place that's so tiny for lightspeed that it would literally be fast enough to run around the equator about 8 times over in a single second. And yet Adam's brain is still fast enough for him to casually maneuver in such a small area at such speeds. Black Bolt does not come close to this. He is super to hypersonic in flight, and his brain is at best as fast as his flight speed--reflex wise he's literally done nothing that street levelers can't do. So what happens here is that Black Bolt would literally be a statue to Adam in a forum fight. And thus your usage of the term 'moment's hesitation' has little bearing, because what would constitute a 'moment' to Adam is very different from what would constitute a 'moment' for BB. BB may consider a hundredth of a second a 'moment', whereas Adam may consider a nanosecond a 'moment'.
Would the writers know the implications of such a speed differential? Maybe, but they are unlikely to demonstrate it in a high profile fight between two popular characters. We have absolutely no reason to not realistically state such implications of course, as we don't care about the sales of a story as we aren't writing one, we are talking about a hypothetical fight, outside of the confines of writing norms, and thus we have no reason to just capitulate that a fight between two characters who appear to be on a 'similar tier', has to actually be close in a fight just because it 'feels right'. (as a further example, I certainly don't feel like Superman vs Thor has to be a close fight just because it 'feels right' that Thor should be given that respect just because of his tier.)

Moving on, lets go to the shout again. Let's get this out of the way now. Yes, a single shout will not KO Adam. Most certainly not. This is the same guy that wasn't even ko'd from a Tesseract bomb going off in his brain, and likewise CM's entire upper body, head included, got turned inside out by a tesseract bomb and he healed from that in an instant, so Adam's potential regen is immense as well.

BB's whisper/shout won't come close to that kind of trauma, hell, he didn't even break the Hulk's skull with it, and the Hulk was a much 'softer' target durability wise than Adam is. So continuing on with this in-character scenario, Adam gets cocky and gets hit with a shout as you say, and sure, I agree that he might get rattled, but what happens after that? Oh, you know, Adam recovers from it very quickly and gets uber-pissed, and then goes at BB with full murderous intent, and BB won't get another chance to pull another one off due to, again, the immense speed differential. And with that, goes BB's only chance of a possible KO, as he certainly can't do it with his fists--too slow and besides that Adam has a great history of being hard to KO by people in his own strength category, or even people above it (SBP), and BB doesn't come close to parity let alone superiority.

In the end I liked the statement that Black Adam will get the first strike because of his speed and his problem may be that he might not capitalize afterwards. Thanks for the roundabout admission that the only way Black Adam can lose if he's still actually affected by CIS and that Black Bolt has no counter for it.

Black Adam via speed blitz, combo to ko win against the weaker, softer, and immensely slower Black Bolt, mashing his head into a fine paste.

-If they are fighting 'in-character', Black Adam wins a healthy majority.
-If they are fighting to the 'best of their ability', e.g. Adam's out to kill him as quickly as possible, then Adam wins this 10/10.

I do not expect you will have a counter to the facts that are being presented here, and will continue on with your imaginary character interaction charged vision of how it will play out that will somehow miraculously allow for a Black Bolt majority win--whilst you undermine it by unwittingly admitting that there is no actual counter for the attribute of speed that is being presented here in this scenario; if Black Adam simply decides to fight with no showing off or sandbagging(--which is again hardly unrealistic given his drop of a hat ruthlessness or the by the reality of what assumptions are made in a hypothetical fight where both participants would be assumed to be trying their best to win.)



Of course. Anything that has basis in subjective judgement and nothing else is arbitrary. Like how you're arbitrarily choosing to decide what is 'in-character' or not, for whatever is most convenient to fit your end vision of a hypothetical fight.

Read. I already did. 100x lightspeed is paltry for cosmic travel.

I'm not sure if it's Pre-Crisis or not, but an early Black Adam origin had SHAZAM (Who admitted he couldn't harm Adam) BFR him to the farthest reaches of the universe. Black Adam was flying waaay ftl to get back. Bad ass.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm not sure if it's Pre-Crisis or not, but an early Black Adam origin had SHAZAM (Who admitted he couldn't harm Adam) BFR him to the farthest reaches of the universe. Black Adam was flying waaay ftl to get back. Bad ass.
Shazam: the new beginning which is non-canon. It was the farthest star to the naked eye and it took adam 5000 years to come back IIRC.

So how fast was he travelling?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
So how fast was he travelling?
Who knows? Far faster than 100c that's for sure.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Unfortunately I see nothing here but a more long winded regurgitation of what you said before.

The premise of your points are flawed.

For one, we are NOT arguing characters here. We are arguing feats of characters. We are not writers. We are not bound by the restrictions of having to tell a story like they are. And of course such restrictions can cause clashes with prior established facts within continuity. Which is why forums ever created terms like 'CIS', 'PIS', or designations like 'fighting to the best of their ability', or even giving provisions for threads like 'characters get basic knowledge' of each other.

Was going to quote your entire post, but this is the part I really needed to address.

We ARE arguing characters. Powersets and feats contribute to that, but it's the CHARACTERS that come first. Those are the rules.

Adam wins but it aint easy.

BB was stronger enough to fight Gladiator in WOK and Glads needed to call help

Adam might be dumb enough to think he can just go in for the killshot from the bat. This would be straight flight toward BB's face aka right for BB Weapon of mass destruction. BB lets loose a scream and it's over.

But if BA actually fights smart (not sure if he is known for his tactics) he would try to dodge the attacks and go in for the attack when there is a opening.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who knows? Far faster than 100c that's for sure.

I heard it isn't Canon with the character though.

Originally posted by carver9
I heard it isn't Canon with the character though.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Shazam: the new beginning which is non-canon. It was the farthest star to the naked eye and it took adam 5000 years to come back IIRC.

Didn't see that. Gotcha.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Was going to quote your entire post, but this is the part I really needed to address.

We ARE arguing characters. Powersets and feats contribute to that, but it's the CHARACTERS that come first. Those are the rules.

Absolutely not.

And I already addressed why that does not work.

The feats come first. The actual character that drives the feats, comes second.

This is how the mechanic works implicitly even if its not written down specifically as such. Because characters without feats cannot be argued for. Characters with feats but no apparent character, CAN be argued for (e.g. if some random character pops up and destroys everything and then disappears without a word, this character can be argued for.)

Thus, obviously, facts HAVE to come first in any argument. What are the facts? The feats are facts. Subjective considerations, come second, because they are just that, subjective, and without any unquestioning consensus unlike the way we are forced to capitulate to facts. Interpretation of how those feats might be used, are the subjective considerations.


-Character A is thousands of times faster than Character B.
-Character B unfortunately has no counter to this speed.

^Those would be facts.

-Character B may have a chance *if* Character A behaves this specific way.

^That, would be an opinion of a possible interpretation.

Facts come first, obviously.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Absolutely not.

And I already addressed why that does not work.

The feats come first. The actual character that drives the feats, comes second.

This is how the mechanic works implicitly even if its not written down specifically as such. Because characters without feats cannot be argued for.

Thus, obviously, facts HAVE to come first in any argument. What are the facts? The feats are facts. Subjective considerations, come second, because they are just that, subjective, and without any unquestioning consensus unlike the way we are forced to capitulate to facts. Interpretation of how those feats might be used, are the subjective considerations.


-Character A is thousands of times faster than Character B.
-Character B unfortunately has no counter to this speed.

^Those would be facts.

-Character B may have a chance *if* Character A behaves this specific way.

^That, would be an opinion of a possible interpretation.

Facts come first, obviously.

So wait, you're telling me what the rules are, now?

No.

I'm telling you why this 'rule' can't work because it is based on subjectivity--its more of a 'guideline' as such. And besides that, its flawed, I edited the post a bit more to illustrate it with another example.

Can you infract me for arguing that powersets are more important than character? No.

Therefore, its not really a rule by the mechanics.


We are arguing a hypothetical fight. We are not writing a story that includes a fight.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
No.

I'm telling you why this 'rule' can't work because it is based on subjectivity--its more of a 'guideline' as such. And besides that, its flawed, I edited the post a bit more to illustrate it with another example.

Can you infract me for arguing that powersets are more important than character? No.

Therefore, its not really a rule by the mechanics.


We are arguing a hypothetical fight. We are not writing a story that includes a fight.

It is a rule, though. We go by character as primarily if not more so than we do powerset, that's in the rules, and if you don't like it, then I suggest you try debating it on another board, rather than dictate policy to me.

Just because a character can do a thing, does not mean they will do a thing. This is in the rules, and it's no more subjective than the feats that get misconstrued as being better or worse than they are.

It's flawed in your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Doesn't make it fact.

It's flawed by mechanics, not opinion. I'm sorry. I already illustrated why.

Because a character with no feats can't be argued. Something with a feat but no apparent character, can be argued.

Thus implicitly, feats are more important.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Absolutely not.

And I already addressed why that does not work.

The feats come first. The actual character that drives the feats, comes second.

This is how the mechanic works implicitly even if its not written down specifically as such. Because characters without feats cannot be argued for. Characters with feats but no apparent character, CAN be argued for (e.g. if some random character pops up and destroys everything and then disappears without a word, this character can be argued for.)

Thus, obviously, facts HAVE to come first in any argument. What are the facts? The feats are facts. Subjective considerations, come second, because they are just that, subjective, and without any unquestioning consensus unlike the way we are forced to capitulate to facts. Interpretation of how those feats might be used, are the subjective considerations.


-Character A is thousands of times faster than Character B.
-Character B unfortunately has no counter to this speed.

^Those would be facts.

-Character B may have a chance *if* Character A behaves this specific way.

^That, would be an opinion of a possible interpretation.

Facts come first, obviously.



Thusly, the FACTS are that BA is neither too fast (BB has fought characters as fast or faster than BA), or too strong (BB has fought characters as strong or stronger than BA) nor are BA's fighting skills too advanced (BB has fought as skilled fighters or more skilled fighters).

So because of these FACTS BA is unable to overwhelm BB in any of these catagorys and this makes this fight as I earlier stated anyones fight and IMO is a stalemate or is in FACT in BB's favor for the majority.

At the end of the day the FACT is that BA can't get around BB's haymaker of a voice.

The facts:

BA thinks at lightspeed.
BB DOES NOT.

The Gladiator fight argument is not an argument. Seeing as even the likes of Colossus has landed blows on him.

BA annihilates.

facepalmOriginally posted by CosmicComet


The premise of your points are flawed.

Imma stop you right here. Your post is just a breakdown of why you don't like the rules, and then an attempt to argue 'despite this' - which can be addressed if we can get past this point:

Originally posted by CosmicComet
For one, we are NOT arguing characters here. We are arguing feats of characters. We are not writers. We are not bound by the restrictions of having to tell a story like they are. And of course such restrictions can cause clashes with prior established facts within continuity. Which is why forums ever created terms like 'CIS', 'PIS', or designations like 'fighting to the best of their ability', or even giving provisions for threads like 'characters get basic knowledge' of each other.

Of course we are bound by similar restrictions. No, we're not trying to tell a story, but we are entirely limited to interpreting stories, and those stories are inherently bound by restrictions of entertainment. While forums don't have to tell a story, we can't arbitrarily throw away elements of stories that we decide don't belong in a forum fight, including character design and personality.

Forum rules understand this, which is why, as you highlight, they have created terms like CIS/PIS/etc.

Further, I don't really see interpreting actions as based on any less 'cold hard fact' than interpreting feats, and both come with a solid degree of subjectivity. Still, I can explain why I think a character normally behaves in manners x or y, and I can point to comics for evidence, which is why the word you're looking for is 'subjective', not 'arbitrary'.

I understand that ignorance of an entire personality can allow you to reinterpret a fight where your boy comes out on top, but after you've removed all character and reduced him to a class level and flight speed, I don't really see what the appeal of any superhero is anymore.

Anyways, this is all side discussion at this point, seeing as we've had a pretty direct mod ruling on the role of character in forum discussions.

So, with that in mind, I think Black Bolt wins.

CC will be banned from this thread until he starts making sense.

Once again, its a bit hypocritical to assume that BB would use his voice because he's starting to use it more frequently but adam wouldn't use his speed to his advantage. As per the forum rule adam would know about BB's voice and he isn't an idiot exactly. He's by nature a speedster and forcing some imaginary character trait isn't the way to debate it.

Shut up, you liar.

Originally posted by Mindset
Shut up, you liar.
Who's lying?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Once again, its a bit hypocritical to assume that BB would use his voice because he's starting to use it more frequently but adam wouldn't use his speed to his advantage. As per the forum rule adam would know about BB's voice and he isn't an idiot exactly. He's by nature a speedster and forcing some imaginary character trait isn't the way to debate it. Adam would use his speed the same way he uses it in comics. If we're agreed on that point, then it just comes down to us discussing how he uses it in comics, rather than anybody 'forcing some imaginary character trait'.

I think Adam rushes into these encounters at high speeds, but doesn't typically pour it on past the initial blows, and I don't think that he ever fights at the speeds that he travels at.

What do you think?

Originally posted by Existere
Adam would use his speed the same way he uses it in comics. If we're agreed on that point, then it just comes down to us discussing how he uses it in comics, rather than anybody 'forcing some imaginary character trait'.

I think Adam rushes into these encounters at high speeds, but doesn't typically pour it on past the initial blows, and I don't think that he ever fights at the speeds that he travels at.

What do you think?
I agree, but if BB used his voice as a whisper and adam survived which he will imo then he wouldn't hesitate to blitz BB. That's why I'm giving this to adam, better strength, better speed, better durability and stamina. Black bolt can hang with him in h2h but not for long.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I agree, but if BB used his voice as a whisper and adam survived which he will imo then he wouldn't hesitate to blitz BB. That's why I'm giving this to adam, better strength, better speed, better durability and stamina. Black bolt can hang with him in h2h but not for long. Yeah, fair enough, I could see that happening. I initially gave Black Bolt 6/10, cause I see him getting at best a small majority, and a lot of it hinges on how much damage he outpours initially.

Black Bolt seems to be using the breadth of his powers less and less - the last time he manipulated molecules was when he threatened to wreck Jamie Madrox and that might have actually been Skrull Black Bolt - but he also seems to be getting a lot more brutal with his blows. If he stunned Black Adam in a similar manner that his whisper stunned Gladiator (and I'm of the opinion that nowadays he's a lot likelier to use more than a whisper) and then followed up with a Master Blow or further vocal attacks, then he could take this, but it's a tricky call.

Originally posted by Existere
Yeah, fair enough, I could see that happening. I initially gave Black Bolt 6/10, cause I see him getting at best a small majority, and a lot of it hinges on how much damage he outpours initially.

Black Bolt seems to be using the breadth of his powers less and less - the last time he manipulated molecules was when he threatened to wreck Jamie Madrox and that might have actually been Skrull Black Bolt - but he also seems to be getting a lot more brutal with his blows. If he stunned Black Adam in a similar manner that his whisper stunned Gladiator (and I'm of the opinion that nowadays he's a lot likelier to use more than a whisper) and then followed up with a Master Blow or further vocal attacks, then he could take this, but it's a tricky call.
The problem with shazamers is that they are very difficult to knock out. Captain marvel has been koed only twice post crisis and both were suckerpunches, adam has been koed only once by sivana opening a tesserect in his head the size of a football field. Don't get me wrong, blackagar is awesome but teth is just better.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The problem with shazamers is that they are very difficult to knock out. Captain marvel has been koed only twice post crisis and both were suckerpunches, adam has been koed only once by sivana opening a tesserect in his head the size of a football field. Don't get me wrong, blackagar is awesome but teth is just better. Yeah, I get that, which makes it a good fight. If Black Bolt's voice worked like the kind of physical attack that Black Adam shrugs off so often, maybe I'd agree. Black Bolt's voice wrecks things on an atomic level though - an extension of his ability to manipulate electrons - and it has some pretty incredible feats to its name. Whispers have caused planetwide tremors and volcanic activity, wrecked barriers that skrull nukes couldn't scratch, KO'd Hulk and Gladiator, etc, etc. The threat of speaking had Medusa worried that he would obliterate half the planet they were on, and it's garnered the attention of abstracts.

And nowadays he's using his voice more liberally, as the Inhumans become a warlike race, proactive in their fight to survive.

Black Bolt's stock has gone up as his willingness to use his destructive capabilities have risen. At the end of the day, I think he stands a good chance of KO'ing Adam.

If the fight gets close and personal, BA can rip his antanna off, say good bye BB. Also, if he was similar to Thors apparent power up in Blood & Thunder rage, where his mindset was insane due to Isis' death, I would edge this to BA.

BA

Imo Adam could take what scream BB has shown on panel, when it gets physical he wins.

Black Adam wins.

Adam.

Originally posted by guy222
adam, but if bolt catches em with the scream

This

Thanos took a scream to the face. How comparable is BA's durability to Thanos's?

A fight would go to Black Adam only if Bolt doesn't get a good shot off.

Originally posted by blair85
Thanos took a scream to the face. How comparable is BA's durability to Thanos's?

A fight would go to Black Adam only if Bolt doesn't get a good shot off.

Yeah, why would Bolt NOT get a good shot off? BA is no where near as durable as Thanos who also uses tech to further enhance his already top level durability. BA would be closer to Namor.