magneto vs apocalypse

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juggy#1
even though apocalypse is metal. u think magneto can destroy him by himself ?

KillAll
i think apoc would win in 616 universe almost all the time. magneto might pull a win 1 in 100.


i also think apoc would win in most universes also. every now and then apoc is shown weak in an alternate reality.


even the x-men legends game says that magneto feels that "apocolypse is too powerful for either team (brotherhood and x-men) to fight alone..."


i'm pretty sure that this means nothing, but i'm also pretty sure that most of marvel also agrees that apoc is leaps and bounds more powerful...

now we will hear "what has apoc done in 5k years, hes weak". i'm sure thats what they think. they probably have picked up nearly no apoc appearances. he usually tries to win without actually getting involved. when hes shown to actually force his hand hes quite menacing...

inamilist
For the most part i think apoc is horribly overrated. People think he is on the level of onslaught or people like that, which is ludacris

however, i dont think magneto alone could stand up to apoc for too long, given a real fight

didn't mags just rip apoc apart in AoA however? if thats canon, the winner is obvious

id369
Originally posted by inamilist
For the most part i think apoc is horribly overrated. People think he is on the level of onslaught or people like that, which is ludacris

however, i dont think magneto alone could stand up to apoc for too long, given a real fight

didn't mags just rip apoc apart in AoA however? if thats canon, the winner is obvious

Nate was giving Apoc a serious ass kicking before, Magneto and Holo. interfered.

juggy#1
magneto can lift over a 100 tons with his magnetic powers. but there is a chance he could kill him. but less then 50 % im sure

soujaboy09
Magneto can actually lift up to 30,000 tons, and Apocalypse is I think the greatest foe the X Men have ever faced yes greater than Onslaught.

Apocalypse was one of the most physically powerful beings on Earth. Thanks to the Celestial technology's modifications to his body, he could alter the molecular structure of his body at will in order to change his form. Using this he could alter his appearance or the size of his body; transform his arms and fists into various melee weapons and grant himself superhuman strength. He also can generate energy, thanks to a combination of his mutant power and the Celestial technology in his body. He can use this energy to levitate himself and others, create force fields, and project bursts of concussive force, and can augment himself further by drawing on various outside energy sources.

Apocalypse has demonstrated the ability to teleport himself and other beings, although this ability may be generated by outside technology rather than by Apocalypse himself.

Finally, he was unaging. Even before being modified by the Celestial ship, he lived for thousands of years and was highly resistant to injury. With the Celestial modifications, this resistance to harm was amplified, although it is still possible, albeit highly difficult, to cause him injury that would not be immediately regenerated by his power. Should he suffer massive injuries that prove potentially fatal, he can enter a coma-like state of suspended animation during which he may recover from his wounds with the assistance of his Celestial technology.

In the future timeline from which Cable hails, Apocalypse's physical form had grown too aged and enfeebled to contain his vast superhuman energies. Hence, he transferred his consciousness and powers into a succession of host bodies, abandoning each one when it too grew too old to contain his power. This alternate future version of Apocalypse was ultimately defeated in transit from a depreciated body into a potential host body. Shortly before he transferred himself into Cyclops, he revealed that he was in a host body in the present day - it is not entirely clear when this happened, but the most likely time is when he appeared to die on the moon.

Aside from his superhuman powers, Apocalypse was also an extraordinary genius with knowledge of science and technology centuries ahead of conventional science. This was not merely a result of his exposure to alien technology, as he was able to make significant new advances beyond the alien materials he was exposed to.

juggy#1
Originally posted by soujaboy09
Magneto can actually lift up to 30,000 tons, and Apocalypse is I think the greatest foe the X Men have ever faced yes greater than Onslaught.

Apocalypse was one of the most physically powerful beings on Earth. Thanks to the Celestial technology's modifications to his body, he could alter the molecular structure of his body at will in order to change his form. Using this he could alter his appearance or the size of his body; transform his arms and fists into various melee weapons and grant himself superhuman strength. He also can generate energy, thanks to a combination of his mutant power and the Celestial technology in his body. He can use this energy to levitate himself and others, create force fields, and project bursts of concussive force, and can augment himself further by drawing on various outside energy sources.

Apocalypse has demonstrated the ability to teleport himself and other beings, although this ability may be generated by outside technology rather than by Apocalypse himself.

Finally, he was unaging. Even before being modified by the Celestial ship, he lived for thousands of years and was highly resistant to injury. With the Celestial modifications, this resistance to harm was amplified, although it is still possible, albeit highly difficult, to cause him injury that would not be immediately regenerated by his power. Should he suffer massive injuries that prove potentially fatal, he can enter a coma-like state of suspended animation during which he may recover from his wounds with the assistance of his Celestial technology.

In the future timeline from which Cable hails, Apocalypse's physical form had grown too aged and enfeebled to contain his vast superhuman energies. Hence, he transferred his consciousness and powers into a succession of host bodies, abandoning each one when it too grew too old to contain his power. This alternate future version of Apocalypse was ultimately defeated in transit from a depreciated body into a potential host body. Shortly before he transferred himself into Cyclops, he revealed that he was in a host body in the present day - it is not entirely clear when this happened, but the most likely time is when he appeared to die on the moon.

Aside from his superhuman powers, Apocalypse was also an extraordinary genius with knowledge of science and technology centuries ahead of conventional science. This was not merely a result of his exposure to alien technology, as he was able to make significant new advances beyond the alien materials he was exposed to. lol all that crap happened in the cartoon series i remember. thats where u get your damn information from.but yes most of it is true

id369
If we go by feats instead of the comic telling us that Apo.>Mag.

Than I think Mags (Prime) in his own right has more than a chance.

soujaboy09
I actually got that from answers.com not the cartoon since I've never watched the cartoon.

juggy#1
Originally posted by soujaboy09
I actually got that from answers.com not the cartoon since I've never watched the cartoon. never watched cartoons ? sure buddy thats what they all say

soujaboy09
Ok whatever you say you know more about me than I do.

Timslar
no I'd say it's pretty obvious Magneto takes this, easily. in AoA the only difference had been that Xavier hadn't been born...Apocalypse was at his 616 power.

Magneto on the other hand, during AoA, was so much weaker. He was still ~70 years old, hadn't gotten his godly 616 upgrades, and even gave up some of his power.

At Magneto's current level of power, he would destroy Apocalypse with a thought. Apocalypse is overrated and doesn't stand any kind of chance.

KillAll
thats what most people say... but thats also the same people that dont read much on apoc wink


apoc once laughed at black bolts scream in a weakened state. but much like champion... has been "jobbed" down. he doesnt really force his hand much and just tries to plan everything and usually fails because of an unforseen outcome...

but overall he's physically more powerful and stronger than magneto. and AoA apocalypse was nothing like himself. have you read it???

TheKahn
Also in AoA, Apoc was the main villian and Mags was the hero, so suprise Mags beat Apoc which you could call PIS. Given their abilities Apocalypse should win the majority of fights IMO

cheap cabbage
Originally posted by juggy#1
even though apocalypse is metal. u think magneto can destroy him by himself ?

Apoc isn't really metal. They just draw him like that. He can control every part of his body down to the molecular level. I dont think magneto can quite affect him the way he could metal in a regular human. However, AOA magneto ripped apoc in half when he got really pissed so we know brute force can take apoc. But Apoc is a genius and he's probably got some crazy machine to take magneto. With prep, it goes either way. But if you piss magneto off enough, apoc is gone in a straight fight.

demigawd
Apoc is pretty weak against energy wielders. They don't get much better than Magneto. Magneto can rip apart Apoc pretty easily and Apoc doesn't really have the ability to block that from happening, since Apoc's energy projection is less than impressive, and lacks the kind of shielding to stop Magneto.

Magneto, on the other hand, has shields powerful to stand up to the likes of Phoenix and Galactus, both of whom are packing a bit more power than Apoc.

Magneto wins without much trouble.

Sixth_Winged
Going by what happened in Excalibur pre HOM, Magneto whips out a wormhole, the end.

KillAll
it seems as though everybody in this thread is basic thier decision off of the AoA universe. which is an alternate reality... but there is nothing to suggest that magneto CAN do that in 616 wink. apoc too has a victory over magneto IN an alternate reality. he was beating up the x-men, the brotherhood and magneto at the same time... so that doesnt say much about mags...

i'd say apoc has shown more durability and raw power, plus intelligence in 616

Darth Sparhawk
Apocalypse... he is terrifying!

golem370
Couldn't Apocalypse just use Pyrokinesis to nullify Magneto's powers?

golem370
"Through his ability to alter his form, Apocalypse can give himself virtually any superhuman physical power" He is also a telekinetic

Hegemon875
Originally posted by golem370
Couldn't Apocalypse just use Pyrokinesis to nullify Magneto's powers?

Forgive my ignorance but how would fire nullify magnetism?

demigawd
Originally posted by KillAll
it seems as though everybody in this thread is basic thier decision off of the AoA universe. which is an alternate reality... but there is nothing to suggest that magneto CAN do that in 616 wink. apoc too has a victory over magneto IN an alternate reality. he was beating up the x-men, the brotherhood and magneto at the same time... so that doesnt say much about mags...

i'd say apoc has shown more durability and raw power, plus intelligence in 616

In what alternate reality was Apoc beating Magneto, the Brotherhood and the X-men at the same time? The video game? that's lame...I beat Apoc by myself as Magneto in that game...so what?

AOA most certainly counts because we know precisely what the difference is between AOA and 616. We know the divergence, and we know that none of it affected Apoc's power level. We also, however, know that it DID affect Magneto's power level...AOA made him weaker. And even then he destroyed Apoc. Not only is Magneto capable of doing the same thing in 616, but considering he's 2-3 times more powerful than he was in AOA, he should do it EASIER.

Apoc, on the other hand, is actually weaker in 616, because his original body was destroyed in 616 during X-cutioner's song and had to be replaced with a host body, which was already old and burned out.

So we're dealing with a MORE powerful Magneto vs. a WEAKER Apoc than what we saw in AOA, where the LESS powerful Magneto beat a MORE powerful Apoc.

All things considered, Magneto wins this VERY easily.

And since when when is Apoc a pyrokinetic? And since when would it make a bit of difference?

demigawd
Originally posted by golem370
"Through his ability to alter his form, Apocalypse can give himself virtually any superhuman physical power" He is also a telekinetic

Any superhuman PHYSICAL power, not energy-based power. That means he can turn his hand into a giant hammer, or a buzzsaw or something. He can't turn himself into a reality warper.

And Apoc's telekinetic abilities suck. That's why he never uses it.

id369
Ok magneto in AOA did not defeat Apocalypse by himself. In fact Nate did most of the damage, and Magneto simply took down a broken Apocalypse.

Here we see Nate engaging with Sinister with psionic blows with his fist. It was enough for Nate to Literally beat Sinister to death. And Sinister is bay far not a weak mutant.

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7882/xman4pg13xmanvssin6xc.th.jpg
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7882/xman4pg13xmanvssin6xc.jpg

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/8492/xman4pg14xmanvssin28fs.th.jpg
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/8492/xman4pg14xmanvssin28fs.jpg

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7177/xman4pg15xmanvssin33ni.th.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7177/xman4pg15xmanvssin33ni.jpg


Here are the events that took place in AOA during the Holocaust & Apocalypse vs. Magneto & X-Man fight.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/3689/xmenomegap17xmanvsapo14cg.th.jpg
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/3689/xmenomegap17xmanvsapo14cg.jpg


http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1963/xmenomegap39xmanvsapo28ga.th.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1963/xmenomegap39xmanvsapo28ga.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9595/xmenomegap44xmanvsapo38ai.th.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9595/xmenomegap44xmanvsapo38ai.jpg




And then Magneto finally rips apart Apocalypse. But before Nate came along, Apocalypse was handing Magneto his ass.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6804/xmenomegap46deadapo4lf.th.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6804/xmenomegap46deadapo4lf.jpg

demigawd
Talk about biased scans. You show Magneto bloodied and implied that it's because he was fighting Apoc and getting beaten. Not the case. He was a PRISONER and being tortured by both Apoc and Holocaust. No food, no water, no motivation. X-man came and rescued Magneto, THEN an already bloodied and tortured Magneto started fighting Apoc for the first time there, and even after being starved and tortured, they were STILL fighting on even terms (an old, de-powered, starving TORTURED Magneto vs. a full power Apoc), while X-man and Holocaust threw down.

THEN the scan comes where it says Magneto goes down FOR A HEARTBEAT, which gives Apoc the chance to run off and grab the crystal while Magneto was looking for him. X-man came and knocked the crystal from his hand and kicked him. By then Magneto found Apoc and he and X-man blasted him. Those were the only three attacks X-man used against Apoc, before Magneto and Apoc went at it and Magneto won, and you're telling me that Apoc was so weak after getting hit three times by X-man that THAT was the only reason Magneto won? Magneto, after being captured, starved and tortured by Holocaust and Apocalypse?

Are you kidding me?

Magneto was at 30% of his 616 self and Apoc was at 100%+ of his 616 self and Magneto still won.

Again, to summarize - Magneto was 70+ years old, lost half his power years before (two conflicting reasons are given for why he lost half his power - one source says he lost it destroying Ship, the other said he lost it saving Rogue and passing his power to her), and was captured, starved and tortured for days by Apoc and Holocaust personally. Apoc was at full power, got hit three times by Nate, and didn't show any damage or slowness in getting up and attacking Magneto. They fought - Magneto won.

Current Magneto in 616 is 35 years old, never lost half his power, got a power up in Fatal Attractions from interaction with the earth's magnetosphere and is coming into this fight at full power.

Current Apoc in 616 had his original body destroyed in X-cutioner's Song and his currently operating with host bodies that diminish his power level significantly, making him weaker than he was in AOA.

This is a no-brainer. I'd give odds for 616 Magneto against TWO 616 Apocalypses.

cheap cabbage
Anyone else find it odd that magneto says that apoc was the most powerful of them (mutants) after he easily ripped the guy in two?

demigawd
No. He said, "WE were the mighiest of our race, Apocalypse. Imagine if we were on the same side". There's nothing wrong with beating up a guy and saying that the two of them are the most powerful. It just means that Apoc is #2.

cheap cabbage
Originally posted by demigawd
No. He said, "WE were the mighiest of our race, Apocalypse. Imagine if we were on the same side". There's nothing wrong with beating up a guy and saying that the two of them are the most powerful. It just means that Apoc is #2.

Yep, u're right....either i'm dislexic or i need new glasses.

id369
Originally posted by demigawd
Talk about biased scans. You show Magneto bloodied and implied that it's because he was fighting Apoc and getting beaten. Not the case. He was a PRISONER and being tortured by both Apoc and Holocaust. No food, no water, no motivation. X-man came and rescued Magneto, THEN an already bloodied and tortured Magneto started fighting Apoc for the first time there, and even after being starved and tortured, they were STILL fighting on even terms (an old, de-powered, starving TORTURED Magneto vs. a full power Apoc), while X-man and Holocaust threw down.

THEN the scan comes where it says Magneto goes down FOR A HEARTBEAT, which gives Apoc the chance to run off and grab the crystal while Magneto was looking for him. X-man came and knocked the crystal from his hand and kicked him. By then Magneto found Apoc and he and X-man blasted him. Those were the only three attacks X-man used against Apoc, before Magneto and Apoc went at it and Magneto won, and you're telling me that Apoc was so weak after getting hit three times by X-man that THAT was the only reason Magneto won? Magneto, after being captured, starved and tortured by Holocaust and Apocalypse?

Are you kidding me?

Magneto was at 30% of his 616 self and Apoc was at 100%+ of his 616 self and Magneto still won.

Again, to summarize - Magneto was 70+ years old, lost half his power years before (two conflicting reasons are given for why he lost half his power - one source says he lost it destroying Ship, the other said he lost it saving Rogue and passing his power to her), and was captured, starved and tortured for days by Apoc and Holocaust personally. Apoc was at full power, got hit three times by Nate, and didn't show any damage or slowness in getting up and attacking Magneto. They fought - Magneto won.

Current Magneto in 616 is 35 years old, never lost half his power, got a power up in Fatal Attractions from interaction with the earth's magnetosphere and is coming into this fight at full power.

Current Apoc in 616 had his original body destroyed in X-cutioner's Song and his currently operating with host bodies that diminish his power level significantly, making him weaker than he was in AOA.

This is a no-brainer. I'd give odds for 616 Magneto against TWO 616 Apocalypses.


Again, for whatever reason or excuse you want to bring up. Magneto did not beat Apo by himself.
He never has. MU prevents Magneto from tearing him apart unless there is a plot device.
MU wants everyone to belive that Apo > Mag in any version.
And in AoA Nate was the plot device that turned the tides in that match.

wannabe
Originally posted by golem370
Couldn't Apocalypse just use Pyrokinesis to nullify Magneto's powers? huh How can the "fire-moving" power be used to nullify Magneto's power???

From shown comic feats i'd say Magneto will win, from stated data about the characters i'd say Apoc will win.
I usually go with the feats. What's all the theoretical power worth, when it's not really used by authors?!
I'm actually a big fan of the CONCEPT of Apoc's character, but from a 5000 years old genius mutant with celestial tech, who wants to shape the world, i expect a little more than what he has shown by now.

demigawd
Originally posted by id369
Again, for whatever reason or excuse you want to bring up. Magneto did not beat Apo by himself.
He never has. MU prevents Magneto from tearing him apart unless there is a plot device.
MU wants everyone to belive that Apo > Mag in any version.
And in AoA Nate was the plot device that turned the tides in that match.

He didn't turn the tides, he made it even.

And considering that Magneto also beat Apoc (when they were BOTH full power) in HoM, I'd say your claim that MU believes that Apoc is more powerful is pretty clearly wrong.

Hell, even in the 90s X-men cartoon, Magneto got the better of Apoc in combat, who needed his horsemen to save him.

Look at it this way - 616 Apoc struggled against Namor, who Magneto would beat in a flash, and struggled against REGULAR (not God) Cable, who Magneto OWNED in one panel. 616 Apoc LOST to Cyclops and non-Phoenix Jean Grey - TWICE, while Magneto beat Cyclops, PHOENIX Jean Grey and the rest of the X-men at the same time. And that was even before his second powerup!

Mismatch. Magneto owns Apoc easily.

id369
Originally posted by demigawd
He didn't turn the tides, he made it even.

And considering that Magneto also beat Apoc (when they were BOTH full power) in HoM, I'd say your claim that MU believes that Apoc is more powerful is pretty clearly wrong.

Hell, even in the 90s X-men cartoon, Magneto got the better of Apoc in combat, who needed his horsemen to save him.


If you say so..............................

soujaboy09
Can we get some scans or proof of what your saying demigwad

The Ion
I wouldn't say HOM Apoc was at full power. The Secrets of HOM handbook listed him as Class 20 but the new X-Men handbook says he's Class 100.

demigawd
Originally posted by soujaboy09
Can we get some scans or proof of what your saying demigwad

Proof that Magneto was at half power in AOA: Astonishing X-men #4: Apocalypse says: "Losing half of your incredible gift has also robbed you of your fire"

Proof that Apocalypse is less powerful today: See Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix for an explanation of his power burning his host bodies out and how it made him weak. He was killed by Cyclops and Phoenix as a result. I believe his Handbook entry also specifically states that he's had to use host bodies ever since he was killed on the moon in the final issue of X-cutioner's Song.

Proof that Magneto got two powerups: Uncanny X-men #101 (first powerup) and Uncanny X-men #304 (second powerup).

Proof that 616 Apocalypse is using a host body: X-men #97

Proof that Apocalypse sucks: Every Apoc storyline

Anything else?

demigawd
Originally posted by The Ion
I wouldn't say HOM Apoc was at full power. The Secrets of HOM handbook listed him as Class 20 but the new X-Men handbook says he's Class 100.


the HOM handbook was referring to Apoc's base strength, which was always variable. He can increase it to CL100, but he has to specifically make it so. That's why 616 Apoc had his grip broken by Caliban, who was only CL10 or so at the time.

KillAll
Originally posted by demigawd
In what alternate reality was Apoc beating Magneto, the Brotherhood and the X-men at the same time? The video game? that's lame...I beat Apoc by myself as Magneto in that game...so what?

no it wasnt the game... it was a comic... but even the game counts... its still an alternate reality. and magneto said apoc was too powerful for either team. you probably had it set on easy, and used some cheat codes too. oh and if you wanna get technical, there is a 3rd alternate reality that apoc was depicted as more powerful... the x-men 90's cartoon. he was MUCH more powerful in that.

Originally posted by demigawd
AOA most certainly counts because we know precisely what the difference is between AOA and 616. We know the divergence, and we know that none of it affected Apoc's power level. We also, however, know that it DID affect Magneto's power level...AOA made him weaker. And even then he destroyed Apoc. Not only is Magneto capable of doing the same thing in 616, but considering he's 2-3 times more powerful than he was in AOA, he should do it EASIER.


you dont KNOW what it did. apoc was nowhere near his power level. again i ask, have you read aoa??? apoc isnt nearly what he is in 616. also, juggernaut has shown in ALL realities that he's more powerful than magneto. and in continuity apocs creation took care of juggernaut. so that puts him on a scale above ALL of them. which is the only thing you have to gauge it on really. apoc i believe is who the x-men consider the most dangerous villain wink.


Originally posted by demigawd
Apoc, on the other hand, is actually weaker in 616, because his original body was destroyed in 616 during X-cutioner's song and had to be replaced with a host body, which was already old and burned out.


his physical body would was burned out, and i didnt think it was replaced, only regenerated??? i'd have to brush up on x-cutioners song and re-read it, it's been a while. but his energies would burn out mags body also, so i dont see where you are going with this...



Originally posted by demigawd
So we're dealing with a MORE powerful Magneto vs. a WEAKER Apoc than what we saw in AOA, where the LESS powerful Magneto beat a MORE powerful Apoc.

whats your proof of this besides hear-say information??? you have none. alternate realities are actually pointless to use in a debate of 616...


Originally posted by demigawd
All things considered, Magneto wins this VERY easily.

guess this is just opinion. cause i see just the opposite.

demigawd
Originally posted by KillAll
no it wasnt the game... it was a comic... but even the game counts... its still an alternate reality. and magneto said apoc was too powerful for either team. you probably had it set on easy, and used some cheat codes too. oh and if you wanna get technical, there is a 3rd alternate reality that apoc was depicted as more powerful... the x-men 90's cartoon. he was MUCH more powerful in that.


In what comic did Apoc EVER beat the X-men, the Brotherhood and Magneto at the same time? And in the X-men 90s cartoon, Magneto beat Apoc - he sent him flying out a window and needed his Horsemen to run out and save him. That really didn't help out your argument.



Yes, and that's how I know what it did. We have a comprehensive history of what separated AOA from 616. The two timelines are identical except for 20 years. In that sense, AOA isn't really an alternate reality...it's an altered reality. Are you telling me that the 20 year difference somehow made Apoc a fraction of his power? Ridiculous - we know precisely what changed with each character. We know that Magneto was never de-aged, surrendered half his power, and never got a magnetosphere powerup. We know that AOA Apoc is more powerful because he spent his time ruling, instead of being pre-maturely awoken from his evolution chamber sleep in 616. You can't argue your way around that....we KNOW those two to be the differences between the AOA and 616 versions of the characters. AOA is NOT a What If.



Based on what? His humiliating loss to Black Bolt? His humiliating losses to Cyclops and Phoenix? His struggle in battle against a powerless Cable? His decision to cut and run from Namor? His inability to maintain a headlock on a Class 10 character? Or are you referring to something else?



He IS? Based on what?



What kind of logic is that? Magneto created Alpha the Ultimate Mutant, who turned against him and turned him into a baby. Who said that just because you created someone that you're more powerful than they are? That's ridiculous.



Juggernaut is the only thing we have to gauge it on??? How about their respective fights against common opponents. Like how Apoc loses to Cyclops and non-Phoenix Jean Grey TWICE, and struggles against Cable, but Magneto tears Cable apart in one panel, and beats Cyclops, PHOENIX Jean Grey, and the rest of the X-men AND X-factor AND X-Force at the same time?



His original body, which was capable of using his full power, was destroyed. He's since started body swapping, and as such can't access his full power anymore, otherwise it destroys his host body. That never happened in AOA, hence 616 Apoc is LESS powerful than AOA Apoc.



I gave specific references, including 616 storylines, above. And AOA is valid to cite because we know the divergence point. What If's don't count because we're just thrown in and don't know anything more about how the characters evolved, because it was a single issue. AOA was written by the regular teams for many issues, with an extensive backstory, and in depth information about what changed in them vs. 616. That's why we can use it.

TheKahn
bump

Mider
hay tell us what comic Apoc beat mags the brotherhood and stuff TELL US WE WANNA KNOW

leonidas
apoc owns demi -- i mean mags . . . big grin

Mider
tell us!

demigawd
Yeah, I wanna know, too.

Originally posted by leonidas
apoc owns demi -- i mean mags . . . big grin

Quiet, you.

leonidas
Originally posted by demigawd
Yeah, I wanna know, too.



Quiet, you.

oh, did i say that out loud . . .? whistle

Mainstream
Originally posted by id369
Again, for whatever reason or excuse you want to bring up. Magneto did not beat Apo by himself.
He never has. MU prevents Magneto from tearing him apart unless there is a plot device.
MU wants everyone to belive that Apo > Mag in any version.
And in AoA Nate was the plot device that turned the tides in that match.


THank you Magneto didn't beat AoA mags alone.....but a lot of people would swear to the heaven that he did






Serve me..mainstream...for I am..the way. heh heh

demigawd
Originally posted by Mainstream
THank you Magneto didn't beat AoA mags alone.....but a lot of people would swear to the heaven that he did






Serve me..mainstream...for I am..the way. heh heh

What the conveniently forget is that in the beginning of the issue Magneto was, as a captive, attacked by both Holocaust and Apoc too...so fair's fair. It's not like Apoc was crawling around, like, "God, X-man beat the crap out of me. Another shot and I'm done for", just as Magneto appears. Apoc is in MUCH better shape than Magneto was, given that he was a TORTURED CAPTIVE for WEEKS.

Seesh.

leonheartmm
but aoa was BULL. that aside current magneto would beat em as most of marvel has recieved a notable power boost.

Mider
is AoA the comic were Apoc fought the brotherhood, x-men and mags at the same time?

demigawd
Originally posted by Mider
is AoA the comic were Apoc fought the brotherhood, x-men and mags at the same time?

No. There was no Brotherhood in AOA. And Apoc never fought a team of X-men in AOA, either.

Are you thinking about the X-men Legends II game or something??

APOCALYPSE NUR
He did fight Magneto and Bishop at the same damn time and kicked both of there asses, by himself. No one else.

Two in the box.
Ready to go.
We be fast.
They be slow.

Sixth_Winged
Exactly what issue is that? AOA is bs.........or you can count it............and Apoc was shredded by AOA mags(which is at half power of 616).

demigawd
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Exactly what issue is that? AOA is bs.........or you can count it............and Apoc was shredded by AOA mags(which is at half power of 616).

No, he's right. Apoc ambushed Magneto and he was out before the fight started. Magneto recovered but never really did much. But of course, you'll note that the whole time Apoc was talking about how much weaker Magneto is, both in body and in spirit, ever since losing half of his power. Magneto didn't gain his resolve until the finale of AOA. And when he did regain his resolve....the effects on Apoc were devastating.

Mider
magneto had to take his time to stop apoc he had to magnatise his whole body and even then apoc was gonna chocke the crap out of him

demigawd
Originally posted by Mider
magneto had to take his time to stop apoc he had to magnatise his whole body and even then apoc was gonna chocke the crap out of him

True. I think in all honestly, AOA Apoc, if he weren't so arrogant, could have beaten AOA Magneto. It would have been a battle (it was said that AOA Apoc and Magneto fought several times, and actually ruined the EM field of the Earth as a result, but always ended in a stalemate).

Keep in mind, however that 616 Magneto is several times more powerful than AOA Magneto, and AOA Apoc is actually a bit more powerful than 616 Apoc - so what was a competitive battle in AOA would be something of a stomp in 616.

Mider
i dought it in 616 in his GOOD showings Apoc takes a scream from black bolt and laughs it off, was beating prime eternal ikaris, and loki at his strongest i think they stalemated though, and also a not to be messed with high evolutionary with the power to devolve people.

Mider
they keep upgrading mags way to much just to keep showing him as cool i mean seesh doesnt he already pull wormholes out of his butt i mean yes thats true that magnatism can happen but whats this energy mags im hearing about?

Mider
and they did battle in 616 ive heard Apoc grew to like fifty or fourty feet tall and kicked mags butt. thats why he should always fight at his super sized mood i guess not that he gets hurt in his normal size but yeah the mass makes him less lickly to get thrown back even in the cartoon mags was not owned but shown to be less powerful cause his beam lost to apocs beam and he had to do a sucker shot to apoc throwing him out of the axis of time were he would fall forever but that shouldnt have happend either cause in the episode were archangel thinks he has found a way to stop apocalypse for good apocalypse was shown to fly not just levetiate less levitation counts like 20 feet off the ground he could fly though i do remeber it i use to own the episodes. it took his own ship to stop him he was killing everyone he had to be placed in a unit that would use his own power against him making it useless for him to try to beat his way out of it.

demigawd
Originally posted by Mider
i dought it in 616 in his GOOD showings Apoc takes a scream from black bolt and laughs it off, was beating prime eternal ikaris, and loki at his strongest i think they stalemated though, and also a not to be messed with high evolutionary with the power to devolve people.

Ikaris was designated as the Prime Eternal, but in his Handbook entry, it actually said that he didn't inherit any of the PE powers, for "undisclosed reasons". I think it was supposed to be a mystery that the series was cancelled before they got to explore it.

also, it wasn't a Black Bolt scream...it was a sonic attack. He can do both. He didn't do the scream because you can see there's no collateral damage. And he wouldn't have done the scream because Apoc was in possession of Scott's son...he wouldn't have risked killing the boy. When he DID do the scream, Apoc was dust, along with half of Wakanda. That's how you can tell the difference between attacks.

He did stalemate both Loki and High Evolutionary. But that was before his powering down, which took place after he was killed by the Dark Riders. when he resurfaced, he had a host body, which made him less stable.

Originally posted by Mider
they keep upgrading mags way to much just to keep showing him as cool i mean seesh doesnt he already pull wormholes out of his butt i mean yes thats true that magnatism can happen but whats this energy mags im hearing about?

Oh, the energy Mags is from X-men: the End. Magnetos body was destroyed on the Shi'ar homeworld, but he resurrected himself and reformed out of energy, revealing that he is one with electromagnetic energy and can't die. He was also able to resurrect Polaris. Next issue, he's going to own the entire Shi'ar empire...

demigawd
Originally posted by Mider
and they did battle in 616 ive heard Apoc grew to like fifty or fourty feet tall and kicked mags butt. thats why he should always fight at his super sized mood i guess not that he gets hurt in his normal size but yeah the mass makes him less lickly to get thrown back even in the cartoon mags was not owned but shown to be less powerful cause his beam lost to apocs beam and he had to do a sucker shot to apoc throwing him out of the axis of time were he would fall forever but that shouldnt have happend either cause in the episode were archangel thinks he has found a way to stop apocalypse for good apocalypse was shown to fly not just levetiate less levitation counts like 20 feet off the ground he could fly though i do remeber it i use to own the episodes. it took his own ship to stop him he was killing everyone he had to be placed in a unit that would use his own power against him making it useless for him to try to beat his way out of it.

No, they never fought in 616. In HoM, Magneto beat Apoc, and Apoc expected Magneto to kill him. Magneto chose not to kill him, but to offer him a job instead, which Apoc accepted. In exchange, he gave Apoc some desert land to rule over.

APOCALYPSE NUR
ahh, don't listen to demigawd, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Apocalypse's base level strength is not 25 tons........ever. He can
lift up to 100 tons according to Marvel trading cards 1991, 1992, and 93'. So shut up trying to say that he is weak.

I know he is a power lifter (for loss of a better word), and he managed to beat all of the X-men's asses (Beast, quicksilver, storm, iceman, colossus, Archangel) single handedly (and dying).

And no, he never fought the brotherhood. He fought Magneto and bishop both at the same time and kicked both of their asses, growing 30-40 feet just to mess with mag's head. However, magneto was at half his power, due to the events in X-men Alpha I beleive. That's where demi got he cute little quote.

I have all the damn comics he's in......don't mess with me, buddy.

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by demigawd
What the conveniently forget is that in the beginning of the issue Magneto was, as a captive, attacked by both Holocaust and Apoc too...so fair's fair. It's not like Apoc was crawling around, like, "God, X-man beat the crap out of me. Another shot and I'm done for", just as Magneto appears. Apoc is in MUCH better shape than Magneto was, given that he was a TORTURED CAPTIVE for WEEKS.

Seesh.


One of the few instances where demi is right. Magneto was weaker until the end, using Apocalypses tech as makeshift armor and ripping him in half.

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by demigawd
Keep in mind, however that 616 Magneto is several times more powerful than AOA Magneto, and AOA Apoc is actually a bit more powerful than 616 Apoc - so what was a competitive battle in AOA would be something of a stomp in 616.


Actually, you don't know that. It's never been stated but it's probably the same power levels as 616. After all, it's the same universe, just that Xavier got killed in this one.

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by Mider
and they did battle in 616 ive heard Apoc grew to like fifty or fourty feet tall and kicked mags butt. thats why he should always fight at his super sized mood i guess not that he gets hurt in his normal size but yeah the mass makes him less lickly to get thrown back even in the cartoon mags was not owned but shown to be less powerful cause his beam lost to apocs beam and he had to do a sucker shot to apoc throwing him out of the axis of time were he would fall forever but that shouldnt have happend either cause in the episode were archangel thinks he has found a way to stop apocalypse for good apocalypse was shown to fly not just levetiate less levitation counts like 20 feet off the ground he could fly though i do remeber it i use to own the episodes. it took his own ship to stop him he was killing everyone he had to be placed in a unit that would use his own power against him making it useless for him to try to beat his way out of it.


Agreed.

It's true, Apocalypse would do alot better to just stay like, 50 feet tall all the time. I mean, it's not a stretch.

And plus it's just F*cking awesome when he grows.

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by demigawd
No, they never fought in 616. In HoM, Magneto beat Apoc, and Apoc expected Magneto to kill him. Magneto chose not to kill him, but to offer him a job instead, which Apoc accepted. In exchange, he gave Apoc some desert land to rule over.

same thing basically.

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by demigawd
When he DID do the scream, Apoc was dust, along with half of Wakanda. That's how you can tell the difference between attacks.

Actually, that's HoM you're talking about there, which is not credible.



Originally posted by demigawd
He did stalemate both Loki and High Evolutionary. But that was before his powering down, which took place after he was killed by the Dark Riders. when he resurfaced, he had a host body, which made him less stable.


Good point......never thought of it that way........

Also, he didn't really stalemate the High Evolutionary, more like totally kicked his red ass. I mean, the cover says it all.

demigawd
Originally posted by APOCALYPSE NUR
ahh, don't listen to demigawd, he doesn't know what he's talking about.


heh...he'll learn...



Who said he was weak? That said....what are his strength feats? Go ahead, name some.

If we're going by Marvel trading cards, Magneto and Apocalypse are in the same strength class. Magneto can amp his powers to the 100+ ton range, too.

It's better to go by feats.



And you know this because of the time when he....?



Wow...he beat a bunch of random mutants.

He also got torn apart by Phoenix. The same Phoenix Magneto beat effortlessly.

He also got blasted to nothing by Cyclops. The same Cyclops Magneto beats, like, every issue.



Consider me duly intimidated. roll eyes (sarcastic)

demigawd
Originally posted by APOCALYPSE NUR
One of the few instances where demi is right. Magneto was weaker until the end, using Apocalypses tech as makeshift armor and ripping him in half.

Apoc's tech? I hope you're not trying to say that it enhanced Magneto's abilities, hahaha. He took a bunch of scrap metal laying around and covered himself up with it (which is what you'd expect from the master of magnetism).

So Magneto at less than half power tore Apocalypse apart. You can't refute that...it's fact.

Originally posted by APOCALYPSE NUR
Actually, you don't know that. It's never been stated but it's probably the same power levels as 616. After all, it's the same universe, just that Xavier got killed in this one.

Wrong.

Let's go over some X-men history 101.

magneto started out an old holocaust survivor - he was a pretty old man. That's what we refer to as "Classic" Magneto.

Classic Magneto was an old man, and as such, didn't have a lot of power at his disposal, because he was way past his prime. He stayed that way until Defenders, when he was turned into a baby by Alpha the Ultimate Mutant. He disappeared for years.

He later resurfaced when he was restored by Erik the Red to his prime...meaning he was restored to a man in his early 30s. As a result, he was more powerful than he ever was before, as he effortlessly beat the stuffing out of the X-men...including the Phoenix.

A decade or so later, he was caught in an explosion on Asteroid M, but was saved by the Acolyte Chrome, who converted him to metal to help him survive. Unwittingly, that transformation increased his sensitivity to electromagnetic energy to a far greater degree than ever, making him even MORE powerful than he was before - so much so that he was able to disable the X-men, X-force, X-factor, Generation X, etc. all at the same time WHILE blocking the telepathy of both Xavier and Jean Grey AND holding a massive space station 10 miles wide aloft ALL AT THE SAME TIME (beat that, Apoc!).

He later blacked out the entire planet with an electromagnetic pulse, overriding planetary shields designed to prevent the use of his powers.

Now, let's go backwards 20 years, when AOA started.

Magneto was never turned into chrome to increase his sensitivity to the EM field.

Magneto was never de-aged and restored to his prime.

Magneto in AOA was "Classic Magneto", at his classic levels.

And then on top of that, he lost half of THAT power.

So yes, there's very clear evidence that 616 Magneto is a lot more powerful than AOA Magneto. 616 Magneto is the most powerful Magneto in Marvel (aside from X-men: The End Magneto).

And yet AOA Magneto still killed Apocalypse.

Apoc is WAAAAY over his head here.

demigawd
Originally posted by APOCALYPSE NUR
same thing basically.

Same thing? OK...then Magneto whipped Apocalypse. Happy?

Originally posted by APOCALYPSE NUR
Actually, that's HoM you're talking about there, which is not credible.






Good point......never thought of it that way........

Also, he didn't really stalemate the High Evolutionary, more like totally kicked his red ass. I mean, the cover says it all.

HoM certainly counts. Even moreso than AOA. HoM isn't an alternate reality. It's an altered reality. It's 616....the same characters, just in different situations.

So Apoc has never gotten the best of Magneto, even at Magneto's weakest.

Mainstream
HoM was created by Magneto's daughter magic so basically she made her daddy king of the world...you don't believe she'd make Apoc king and have her dear old pops be his slave did ya?

Magneto kid makes him king and Apoclaypse is an underlining....I was sooooo surprise. big grin

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by demigawd
heh...he'll learn...



Who said he was weak? That said....what are his strength feats? Go ahead, name some.

If we're going by Marvel trading cards, Magneto and Apocalypse are in the same strength class. Magneto can amp his powers to the 100+ ton range, too.

It's better to go by feats.



And you know this because of the time when he....?



Wow...he beat a bunch of random mutants.

He also got torn apart by Phoenix. The same Phoenix Magneto beat effortlessly.

He also got blasted to nothing by Cyclops. The same Cyclops Magneto beats, like, every issue.



Consider me duly intimidated. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ahhhh, X-factor 86. Good stuff.....good stuff.


and there are plenty of characters in the marvel universe that are 100 class or more, but haven't lifted much of anything above their heads, but we know they can. I mean, how many times (if any) has Galactus lifted a 100 ton weight above his head? He doesn't have to though, and we still know he can. Same with APOCALYPSE(amen).

Also, the measure of ones strength can be shown through other feats than lifting clear above one's own head arms fully extended.
I mean, he's restrained the fricken HULK! And while the hulk was struggling, but apocalypse wasn't exerting himself that much, yada yada yada.....

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by demigawd
Apoc's tech? I hope you're not trying to say that it enhanced Magneto's abilities, hahaha. He took a bunch of scrap metal laying around and covered himself up with it (which is what you'd expect from the master of magnetism).

So Magneto at less than half power tore Apocalypse apart. You can't refute that...it's fact.



Wrong.

Let's go over some X-men history 101.

magneto started out an old holocaust survivor - he was a pretty old man. That's what we refer to as "Classic" Magneto.

Classic Magneto was an old man, and as such, didn't have a lot of power at his disposal, because he was way past his prime. He stayed that way until Defenders, when he was turned into a baby by Alpha the Ultimate Mutant. He disappeared for years.

He later resurfaced when he was restored by Erik the Red to his prime...meaning he was restored to a man in his early 30s. As a result, he was more powerful than he ever was before, as he effortlessly beat the stuffing out of the X-men...including the Phoenix.

A decade or so later, he was caught in an explosion on Asteroid M, but was saved by the Acolyte Chrome, who converted him to metal to help him survive. Unwittingly, that transformation increased his sensitivity to electromagnetic energy to a far greater degree than ever, making him even MORE powerful than he was before - so much so that he was able to disable the X-men, X-force, X-factor, Generation X, etc. all at the same time WHILE blocking the telepathy of both Xavier and Jean Grey AND holding a massive space station 10 miles wide aloft ALL AT THE SAME TIME (beat that, Apoc!).

He later blacked out the entire planet with an electromagnetic pulse, overriding planetary shields designed to prevent the use of his powers.

Now, let's go backwards 20 years, when AOA started.

Magneto was never turned into chrome to increase his sensitivity to the EM field.

Magneto was never de-aged and restored to his prime.

Magneto in AOA was "Classic Magneto", at his classic levels.

And then on top of that, he lost half of THAT power.

So yes, there's very clear evidence that 616 Magneto is a lot more powerful than AOA Magneto. 616 Magneto is the most powerful Magneto in Marvel (aside from X-men: The End Magneto).

And yet AOA Magneto still killed Apocalypse.

Apoc is WAAAAY over his head here.


Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Buddy, you missunderstood me. I wasn't saying that magneto wasn't as poweful here or couldn't beat Apocalypse.

I was replying to the post that said Apocalypse was more powerful in the AOA universe than the 616 reality, which is unconfirmed, but it IS the same (just different costumes).
I wasn't talking about mags (directly, anyway).
I have no beef with Mag. beating Apocalypse the way he did. He is a very powerful character......there! Never said otherwise.

Also, Phoenix is a cosmicly powerful being. No shame or weakness in almost getting killed by her. (and didn't he still blast her backwards after that?)
Cyclops also had the combined powers of himself, jean, and nate when he blasted APOCALYPSE. And we don't know that he was obliterated. In fact, he came right back to star in X-cutioners song.

But just to make things clear: your right about what you said about magneto. I never had a problemo with that......good.

and I forgot what else I was going to say. I will reply when I can think of it.


AH HA HA HA HA HA H HA HAH AH AH HAH AH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! confused embarrasment

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by Mainstream
HoM was created by Magneto's daughter magic so basically she made her daddy king of the world...you don't believe she'd make Apoc king and have her dear old pops be his slave did ya?

Magneto kid makes him king and Apoclaypse is an underlining....I was sooooo surprise. big grin


Yes, good. That is why it's uncredible.

oh and,.....thank you.

APOCALYPSE NUR
Originally posted by demigawd

Now, let's go backwards 20 years, when AOA started.

Magneto was never turned into chrome to increase his sensitivity to the EM field.

Magneto was never de-aged and restored to his prime.

Magneto in AOA was "Classic Magneto", at his classic levels.

And then on top of that, he lost half of THAT power.

Yes, fine. But nothing changed apocalypse's abilities. That's what I was saying....and.... aw damn it, I think I just made it worse.

APOCALYPSE NUR
And demi--- I wasn't talking to YOU when I said "shut up trying to call him weak". I was talking (as always) about marvel and the "you" in general (i.e. people that have it out for Apocalypse).

There, that concludes our disambiguation for today.

leonheartmm
current magneto would beat apoc.

outavodka
wh yis this stil going on, i though a conclusion came to this

ExtraMision5555
Originally posted by APOCALYPSE NUR
Agreed.

It's true, Apocalypse would do alot better to just stay like, 50 feet tall all the time. I mean, it's not a stretch.

And plus it's just F*cking awesome when he grows. What else can apoc make grow?

APOCALYPSE NUR
What do you mean?

APOCALYPSE NUR
Uhhh.....How am I a senior member??!!!!!!!!! Don't think that's right.

ExtraMision5555
What i mean is, everyone gets horny -- Right? Couldent he make his




















eyes grow so he could spy on women easier?

APOCALYPSE NUR
HELP COMPUTER!!

DarkCrawler
What the f**k?

APOCALYPSE NUR
don't tell me you've never watched the dubbed over G.I. Joe PSA's by Eric Fensler!

ExtraMision5555
"i really enjoyed this expirence with the indian"

spideycarnage
magento would tear apoc a new one big grin
http://img488.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magvsapo8xv.jpg

APOCALYPSE NUR
Whatever! Now I want to see Apocalypse vs. Snowjob!


Apocalypse: "Bow to me human!!!"---

Snowjob: "What the **** are you kids doin' on my ****ing lawn?!!!!"

Apocalypse: "........."

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