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I'm believe he was more powerful than Living Tribunal but I wonder about TOAA.

TOAA is the marvel version of God apparently

so id say TOAA>Beyonder

TOAA hasn't actually been shown yet, so secret wars Beyonder is most likely.

what about the Infinites?

Originally posted by inamilist
TOAA is the marvel version of God apparently

so id say TOAA>Beyonder

Yea But since the Beyonder existed outside the Multiverse and apparantly was the sum total of his universe, one must wonder if he was atleast equal to the TOAA, after all there are probably lots of One Above Alls throughout the so called Omniverse which is the sum total of all multi-verses. Because after all TOAA is the creator of the Marvel multi-verse, but outside that there may be let's say the Presence, which is TOAA of the the DC multi-verse, but then be may be character "X" who is TOAA of the "X" multi-verse and so on and so on.

My understanding is that TOAA is god

i mean the 3 i's God

meaning he transcends transcendence idea

Originally posted by inamilist
My understanding is that TOAA is god

i mean the 3 i's God

meaning he transcends transcendence idea

Well then there's no way Beyonder was more powerful if he was God God!
Yet I wonder still because Living Tribunal is directed by TOAA so why was he unable to do anything to the Beyonder even when the Beyonder threatened all existence?

i have no idea

cosmic characters arent my specialty

LOAA could be well below beyonder power, im just going by what other posters here have given me the impression of

Originally posted by inamilist
i have no idea

cosmic characters arent my specialty

LOAA could be well below beyonder power, im just going by what other posters here have given me the impression of

I see, I hopecosmic specialists post, this is intersting to ponder, is the TOAA just one of many? As perhaps the Beyonder was a TOAA aswell.

Beyonder, as it turns out, wasn't that powerful. It was later explained that the Celestials and Cosmics he was casually beating up on were actually just astral projections planted in his head by the real Cosmics, who were having a little bit of fun at his expense. The Beyonder is basically at Cosmic Cube level, which is powerful to be sure, but still a few steps behind the most powerful beings in the multiverse.

That's what we refer to as a "retcon". If we were to judge the Beyonder as of Secret Wars, not taking into account the retcon, then yeah, he seemed pretty much beyond every other named being in Marvel, though there was still no evidence of him working at a multiversal scale.

And just because Beyonder was once his own universe, doesn't mean he's equal to TOAA, who works on an omniversal scale. A universal is a infinitely small fraction of that.

there is only one TOAA.

TOAA is the leader of the celestials

Not that TOAA. THE TOAA. It's a little confusing, I know, so we always have to explain this every so often.

There's The One Above All, who is the leader (but not the most powerful) of the Celestials. Nobody talks about him very often.

THEN there's THE One Above All, which is who Odin was talking about when referring to the Creator....God. They're both called the One Above All, which is a little stupid, but they're very different people.

thx!

Originally posted by unknowable
Yet I wonder still because Living Tribunal is directed by TOAA so why was he unable to do anything to the Beyonder even when the Beyonder threatened all existence?

Maybe because the TOAA knew how things would turn out and what the Beyonder really was, and having the Living Tribunal act wasn't necessary.

Yeah, LT only acts for universal threats. A Cosmic Cube doesn't quite approach that level....most of what he did turned out to actually be illusions.

Originally posted by demigawd
Yeah, LT only acts for universal threats. A Cosmic Cube doesn't quite approach that level....most of what he did turned out to actually be illusions.

Actually these "illusion" stories came after the fact, Marvel decided to play down the Beyonder, but this is Secret Wars Beyonder before he was degraded, and he claimed to be beyond this multi-verse and infact wanted to destroy this multi-verse but didn't, due to the reasoning of insignificant mortals. Now just the thought of this desire should have been perceived by Living Tribunal but yet LT did nothing plus why would Beyonder even say he was going to destroy the multi-verse if he couldn't. I think Secret Wars Beyonder was TOAA or atleast his equal, I mean the Beyonder is not even his name, they just call him that cause he's indescribeable, but he could just as easily been called TOAA.

Originally posted by unknowable
Actually these "illusion" stories came after the fact, Marvel decided to play down the Beyonder, but this is Secret Wars Beyonder before he was degraded, and he claimed to be beyond this multi-verse and infact wanted to destroy this multi-verse but didn't, due to the reasoning of insignificant mortals. Now just the thought of this desire should have been perceived by Living Tribunal but yet LT did nothing plus why would Beyonder even say he was going to destroy the multi-verse if he couldn't. I think Secret Wars Beyonder was TOAA or atleast his equal, I mean the Beyonder is not even his name, they just call him that cause he's indescribeable, but he could just as easily been called TOAA.


I know. That was why I made a distinction in my earlier post about the current status of Beyonder and pre-retcon Beyonder as of Secret Wars.

Now pre-retcon Beyonder was powerful, but he still didn't have the power to destroy the universe. Even at his best, his power seemed limited to a single planet at a time. He didn't have universe-destroying power, which is why he needed to trick Rachael into destroying the M'Kraan Crystal and re-starting the universe with Beyonder at the center of it. If Beyonder had the power to destroy the universe, he wouldn't have needed Rachael to do it for him.

Originally posted by unknowable
Well then there's no way Beyonder was more powerful if he was God God!
Yet I wonder still because Living Tribunal is directed by TOAA so why was he unable to do anything to the Beyonder even when the Beyonder threatened all existence?

Cos TOAA Never said so!!!!

The Beyonder didnt even know there was a Multiverse! that points that hes not TOAA/God of everything. Yah he was a very powerful being in marvel, but he wasn't all knowing like TOAA.

He always wasn't aware of all things at once. That's how he was able to get tricked on a few occasions. He seemed to have almost infinite power, but not the mind to use it well. Again, his feats were at best planetary.

(1)
I desire to... understand
In my realm, I am all ! But here is multiplicity... here is diversity... here is incompleteness which I do not understand ! I desire to understand !
...
(2)
In my universe, I was all ! Here there is multiplicity... diversity... incompleteness ! Why ?
The multiplicity and disunity of this universe is confusing !
...
(3)
"In my realm, I was all, the entirety of my own universe ! I knew only of my own oneness --
"I decided that, even more than before, I desired to understand !
"Therefore, days of your time ago, I came to Earth to walk among those here !
With just a thought I subject all who live to my will without resistance, without a doubt... without exception !
Why should I limit my control to humans and other higher life-forms ? I can bring even the bacteria and viruses under my control !
And why stop there ? Even inanimate matter can be controlled ! How simple to seize control of every molecule, every atom, every particle of substance in the world !
Now... everything is mine !
I own everything, I rule everything, I control everything -- virtually, every particle of matter and erg of energy on this planet -- ! And yet I am uncontent !
Conquering the world, I found, did not bring an end to desire, but instead caused a greater sense of unfulfillment -- of incompleteness ! Possessions and power do not bring fulfillment !
...
(4)
I'm beginning to understand the nature of desire, which seems to be the basis of most of the activity going on in this universe !
"I come from another universe, beyond yours! There I was all, the entirety of existence! I knew of nothing except myself...
"Eventually I came here and took human form, that I might come to experience and understand the way of things here!
I have learned much in my few days here! Today, I learned of something called love! I would like to experience it!
All at once, you are but a tiny speck of protoplasm, an infinitesimal mote in the whole of this universe -- and yet, inside, in the essence of your being, you are more, it seems, than the universe itself !
I am from beyond ! I have power far greater than the sum of all power in existence in the universe...
...
(5)
I come from another universe...
I was alone there ! The idea of anything else existing never even occurred to me --
All of the more sophisticated races in the universe are fully aware of my presence here ! I'm the most powerful being in existence !
...
(6)
As the univers goes along, there is a constant struggle taking place between life and death !
Ultimately, either all things will die and the universe will reach total entropy, or all the inhabitants of the universe will evolve into godlike, immortal beings and death will be vanquished !
I'm siding with the forces of life !
I'm still uncertain about all this ? I don't know yet exactly what my role is in the fight for life !
I'm bigger than the multiverse, and more powerful than all of the forces in it, of every kind, combined !
As long as I'm here, the "way" of the multiverse is my way !
...
(7)
What am i, that entire armies attack me, though I am simply sitting and thinking ? Am I so monstrous -- ?
Maybe my true role is to teach all the others beings in existence what their true roles are !
...
(8)
I'm so angry... that I want to destroy all existence !
Since I am the sum of everything beyond, without me, it's nothing ! It's not even a place, really !
Nothing is complete here ! No one thing is everything -- Not even me as long as there are other thing !
I can eliminate everything but me ! Then, I'll be the only thing -- ! I'll be all there is -- ! Complete, happy, fulfilled -- !
No force in existence could possibly destroy me without my consent.
Well, It's over now ! I'm going to destroy all existence right now !
Everything is mine if I choose ! And whatever doesn't please me is history !
...
(9)
I came from a realm beyond the multiverse !
The trouble with being omnipotent is that reality isn't real to me! Everything is what I say it is!
My imagination and reality are virtually indistinguishable! All existence, except me, might as well be a figment of my imagination!
I know desire, because I'm incomplete --
Can I erase my own mind ? And if I do, what am I then ? Dead ?
I've taken human shape, but I've never truly become mortal ! I'm going to do it !
What a rush ! It was awesome... terrifying... exhilarating !
I'm not just an ordinary mortal ! I still have all my memories from before !
All the mighty of this multiverse fear me !
The trick is to become mortal, and yet also retain my power -- ! To have a finite element -- humanity -- inside my otherwise omnipotent self !
Finally! I always had omnipotence -- ! At last I'll have humanity too !

(9)
I came from a realm beyond the multiverse !
The trouble with being omnipotent is that reality isn't real to me! Everything is what I say it is!
My imagination and reality are virtually indistinguishable! All existence, except me, might as well be a figment of my imagination!
I know desire, because I'm incomplete --
Can I erase my own mind ? And if I do, what am I then ? Dead ?
I've taken human shape, but I've never truly become mortal ! I'm going to do it !
What a rush ! It was awesome... terrifying... exhilarating !
I'm not just an ordinary mortal ! I still have all my memories from before !
All the mighty of this multiverse fear me !
The trick is to become mortal, and yet also retain my power -- ! To have a finite element -- humanity -- inside my otherwise omnipotent self !
Finally! I always had omnipotence -- ! At last I'll have humanity too !

Doesn't this sound like a ONE Above All speaking?
What commands more respect than this speech?

I wouldn't be surprised if Secret Wars Beyonder was TOAA or atleast an equal of many equals that rule countless multi-verses throughout the omni-verse.
This is speculation ofcourse but I still think retcon Beyonder was probably not more powerful than TOAA but definately not less either.

Hell, Dr. Doom steals his power, even before the retcon. Anything that can be punked by Dr. Doom (even super-charged by Galactus' world-ship) isn't on LT level.

His best feat that I know of, even pre retcon, was destroying a galaxy and punking a weakened version (by Reed Richards' admission) of Galactus.

Does THOTU count? Still, Beyonder was pretty uber pre-retcon, and is certainly darn close to LT, but still not LT level in my opinion. And since I've never seen credible evidence that the "God" TOAA actually exists (even Thanos says he didn't find a "god" when he destroys the universe) I'd have to put those two 1 and 2. I wish the retcon hadn't happened though...classic Beyonder rocked.

The problem with those quotes is that a lot of it is speculation on the part of the Beyonder. He doesn't understand enough of anything to really be in a position to say whether or not he's that powerful.

On one hand, he's talking about how all reality is his, but on the other, his control only stretches within the confines of planet earth. He's never been able to go beyond that. TOAA does....TOAA stretches across the omniverse as a single entity, which is why he knows all and sees all. If Beyonder were as powerful as TOAA, he wouldn't have that childlike confusion that he does. He'd also exercise universal spanning power, but again, the height of his reality-altering power is planetary at most, and the height of his destructive power is galactic at most. That's actually roughly Modern Cosmic Cube level.

By comparison, Thanos with the IG was able to simultaneously affect the entire universe, blinking out half of all life. Beyonder just talked about it, and it's not unreasonable to assume that he just talked about and didn't do it because he *couldn't*...he just thought he could.

Don't be fooled by the concept of someone being a universe. Mephisto is said to be "all" in his own realm, which some have described as also being a universe. Alternately, the Beyonder is said to come from the Beyond realm, which may, as a concept, be basically the same as Asgard, or Hel or any number of othe realms that are under the total control of a single being. It's not as impressive as it sounds.

Also, remember, if he could destroy the universe, he never would have needed Rachael to destroy the M'Kraan Crystal, right? Why did he need to destroy the M'Kraan Crystal? Because he wanted to destroy the universe and didn't have the power to do it himself. Why did he need Rachel to destroy it? Because he lacked the wisdom, knowledge and capacity to destroy it himself. Why was he overwhelmed by the true depth of the universe and collapsed when Rachel showed it to him? Because his understanding of the true nature of the universe was beyond his capacity to understand.

Those aren't qualities consistent with TOAA.

Beyonder

What was the being known as the Beyonder?

The Beyonder was nothing more than an incomplete Cosmic Cube. The other half of his powers went into Owen Reece, who became the villain Molecule Man.

The Cosmic Cube known as Beyonder has also used the aliases of Kosmos, Cosmos and Maker.

How powerful is the Beyonder?

Not very at all, at least from the viewpoint of the cosmic entities. Beyonder deluded himself with his own powers, the ones that are usually used to grant wishes to the wielders of the Cubes. To the Beyonder, he thought he had destroyed the various Celestial entities he encountered, but in truth, they were all nothing more than illusions manifested by his own powers.

What happened to him?

Eventually the Beyonder and Molecule Man united into one being after learning the truth from the two evolved Cosmic Cubes, Kubik and Shaper of Worlds, during the Secret Wars III and became a new entity, Kosmos, who is now learning to use her powers with the help of an evolved Cosmic Cube named Kubik. Recently Kosmos has changed and become the Maker, who is less of a coherent being with the power of an entity trapped in a mortal body, apparently having suffered some sort of mental trauma and amnesia after her travels with Kubi

Golem, for .... sake, stom copying from that Marvel Cosmic site would ya ??

Yea Golem we know all that crap, The thread is about secret wars Beyonder who wasn't at the time whitewashed by marvel into a cosmic cube.
When he killed Death, he killed Death, he then brought her back to life, and so on and so on. Stick to the topic my friends..

Originally posted by demigawd
The problem with those quotes is that a lot of it is speculation on the part of the Beyonder. He doesn't understand enough of anything to really be in a position to say whether or not he's that powerful.

On one hand, he's talking about how all reality is his, but on the other, his control only stretches within the confines of planet earth. He's never been able to go beyond that. TOAA does....TOAA stretches across the omniverse as a single entity, which is why he knows all and sees all. If Beyonder were as powerful as TOAA, he wouldn't have that childlike confusion that he does. He'd also exercise universal spanning power, but again, the height of his reality-altering power is planetary at most, and the height of his destructive power is galactic at most. That's actually roughly Modern Cosmic Cube level.

.

My man there's no way retcon Beyonder was only galactic or even more demeaning global,

every Official Marvel Universe bio series since the dawn of retcon Beyonder, has clearly stated that Beyonder was the Most Powerful Being EVER to exist in this universe(616). Now if that's a fact then obviously he was able to affect atleast a universal scale, though my theory is he was beyond even that because there have been other characters within this universe that have threatened the existence of this universe that where not as powerful as retcon Beyonder.

Originally posted by demigawd
Not that TOAA. THE TOAA. It's a little confusing, I know, so we always have to explain this every so often.

There's The One Above All, who is the leader (but not the most powerful) of the Celestials. Nobody talks about him very often.

THEN there's THE One Above All, which is who Odin was talking about when referring to the Creator....God. They're both called the One Above All, which is a little stupid, but they're very different people.

Who says TOAA is God. We've had a debate about that recently, theres no evidence around to support the fact that LT works for the supreme being. All that was said in Infinity Watch is that LT serves forces above the IG or Eternity. From that fans coined the term TOAA and people said LT served god based on that. Not good enough.

Originally posted by unknowable
My man there's no way retcon Beyonder was only galactic or even more demeaning global,

every Official Marvel Universe bio series since the dawn of retcon Beyonder, has clearly stated that Beyonder was the Most Powerful Being EVER to exist in this universe(616). Now if that's a fact then obviously he was able to affect atleast a universal scale, though my theory is he was beyond even that because there have been other characters within this universe that have threatened the existence of this universe that where not as powerful as retcon Beyonder.

The bios say he was quite possibly the most powerful being to ever exist in this universe.

Was he more powerful than LT? Yep cos it was stated on panel.

How do they even explain his retcon?
He was nutzo and it was in his head, or what?

Originally posted by Juntai
How do they even explain his retcon?
He was nutzo and it was in his head, or what?

The cosmic beings were playing along with him for their own unexplained reasons lol.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The cosmic beings were playing along with him for their own unexplained reasons lol. LOL.

At the time he was created he was. It was later retconned to fit with the rest of the cosmics hierarquy.

Originally posted by unknowable
My man there's no way retcon Beyonder was only galactic or even more demeaning global,

every Official Marvel Universe bio series since the dawn of retcon Beyonder, has clearly stated that Beyonder was the Most Powerful Being EVER to exist in this universe(616). Now if that's a fact then obviously he was able to affect atleast a universal scale, though my theory is he was beyond even that because there have been other characters within this universe that have threatened the existence of this universe that where not as powerful as retcon Beyonder.

I'm going by feats and feats alone. And by feats, Beyonder hasn't gone beyond global in reality control and not beyond galactic in power destruction. I don't doubt, however, that he was meant to be more powerful than Eternity, Galactus and even LT when Secret Wars came out, but he's still faaaaar below TOAA if he specifically needed someone else to destroy the universe for him because he was unable to do it. Would GOD be unable to destroy the universe of his own power? Of course not. That automatically puts Beyonder below TOAA.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Who says TOAA is God. We've had a debate about that recently, theres no evidence around to support the fact that LT works for the supreme being. All that was said in Infinity Watch is that LT serves forces above the IG or Eternity. From that fans coined the term TOAA and people said LT served god based on that. Not good enough.

Moot point. "The One Above All" was actually a term coined by Odin, and Odin was very specifically referring to the creator. The whole "LT's boss" thing is meaningless in this context - TOAA is the term for God, whether LT works specifically for him or not.

Originally posted by demigawd


Moot point. "The One Above All" was actually a term coined by Odin, and Odin was very specifically referring to the creator. The whole "LT's boss" thing is meaningless in this context - TOAA is the term for God, whether LT works specifically for him or not.

Thats cool. So there is actually a being called TOAA. Remains to be seen whether the being Odin was referring to is the actual supreme being. Have you an issue number? I'll post some scans within the hour.

Either way we're not disagreeing on the point that LT isnt conclusively Gods servant going just by his role and the vague comment made in Infinity Watch.

See, the thing is, even at his most powerful, the Beyonder was stupid.

Seriously, he was nearly retarded. I think I would use my powers to LEARN something ASAP.

Whereas one would imagine TOAA to be quite wise indeed.

As far as Doom defeating The Beyonder or the Living Tribunal or whatever... Doom can do it. Don't doubt it for a moment. He can take anybody. Cuz he's Doom.

YO^ wize wordz. You could be god if you wanted too.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dunno about that. Thanos did after all only destroy a universe. Whether he was the most powerful is debatable however feats wise thats not the most impressive thing any being has done in Marvel.

So merging with Eternity, Infinity and LT, taking down any Cosmic being that walked in its path, destroying and then re-creating the Universe is not the most impressive feat?

Then what is?

Originally posted by id369
So merging with Eternity, Infinity and LT, taking down any Cosmic being that walked in its path, destroying and then re-creating the Universe is not the most impressive feat?

Then what is?

Youre making it sound like a bigger feat than it is. Eternity and Infinity are abstracts, they are reflections of the universe. So by absorbing the universe he is absorbing them and vice versa. So Thanos absorbed the universe and LT before expelling them.

The Phoenix containing the power of the M'krann crystal is the most impressive feat. The M'kraan crsytal is a multiversal reset switch. When its power goes off all that is ceases to exist, not just a universe. Phoenix contained that power and then re-energised the lattice which formerly held it in check.

YO for realz my man thanos is hella powerful with HOTU.

In secret wars II the beyonder said to have released the power of the multiverse times a few hundred times while thanos with THOTU was made TOAA so that TOAA would not have to die in order to fix the multiverse he dispersed all his power just rebuilding the multiverse while beyonder had the concentrated power of even more then one hundreds of multiverses actually.

Originally posted by Mider
In secret wars II the beyonder said to have released the power of the multiverse times a few hundred times while thanos with THOTU was made TOAA so that TOAA would not have to die in order to fix the multiverse he dispersed all his power just rebuilding the multiverse while beyonder had the concentrated power of even more then one hundreds of multiverses actually.

I have both Secret Wars. Tell me where he said that and i'll post scans within the hour.

I dont recall him ever saying that.

As for Thanos in "The End" he was speculating about the nature of the power. He didnt know for certain. Nowhere is it stated by other beings or unbiased captions (bearing in mind they all took the form of Thanos' thoughts) that it was the supreme beings power.

As far as we know for definite it was a vast energy source he tapped into which gave him power enough to humble LT.

Ok so if I was to post who held the single greates feat in any comic by any cosmic character. I bet youd still say Phoenix.

Originally posted by id369
Ok so if I was to post who held the single greates feat in any comic by any cosmic character. I bet youd still say Phoenix.

Youre missing the point. Is that not one helluva feat? If the answers yes then im not just being a biased fanboy am i. Im giving a completely understandable answer.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre missing the point. Is that not one helluva feat? If the answers yes then im not just being a biased fanboy am i. Im giving a completely understandable answer.

Ok. cool

GS can you post some scans of secret wars when beyonder is doing or saying some cool stuff. I dont have the books cause i havent been to obtain them yet.

Thanos of titan is the strongest character ever created....period

Originally posted by King KAM
Thanos of titan is the strongest character ever created....period

My vote goes for Lucifer.

I think Akhenaten (the Pharaoh guy from MU: The End) is one of, if not THE most powerful beings ever in Marvel.

at that time in the 80s the beyonder was the most powerful, LT and TOAA were just fleeting characters at best, if they were even created yet, but back in the early-to-mid 80s dark phoenix and galactus were top dogs in MU, then in secret wars, Doom stole beyonders powers and dusted galactus and left him for dead. so even if TOAA or LT out strips him, FOR THAT TIME as far as fully developed characters were concerned beyonder was the most powerful

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats cool. So there is actually a being called TOAA. Remains to be seen whether the being Odin was referring to is the actual supreme being. Have you an issue number? I'll post some scans within the hour.

Either way we're not disagreeing on the point that LT isnt conclusively Gods servant going just by his role and the vague comment made in Infinity Watch.

Nope, no issue number, it was an issue of Journey Into Mystery. It's oooooooold. I think he was also referenced by the Watchers as the "One on High" (as opposed to me, who they call "the One all High".

I have no comment on who LT works for....I just know about it via rep, not via direct evidence.

I also question the statement that he released the power of several multiverses - how can you have the power of several MULTIVERSES when you were only a living UNIVERSE?

look whether we agree or not the fact remains that marvel went out of it's way to make the Beyonder seem like the most powerful entity/being whatever.
We all know because the entire Secret Wars series 1 and 2, especially 2 concentrates on displaying unlimited even ridiculous feats by the Beyonder.
Marvel realized after a while the Beyonder was becoming boring being "God" and all when sales began to drop, so they de-emphasized him hoping we would be able to relate a little more to him, but we didn't and so he was totally rearranged into this illusion having wacked out half cosmic cube on the behalf of bored cosmic entities with nothing better to do.
Personally I think it was a great creation, to suddenly awaken to have infinite power and not know what to do with it, it could be you it could be me, now that I we can all relate to.

Originally posted by unknowable
look whether we agree or not the fact remains that marvel went out of it's way to make the Beyonder seem like the most powerful entity/being whatever.
We all know because the entire Secret Wars series 1 and 2, especially 2 concentrates on displaying unlimited even ridiculous feats by the Beyonder.
Marvel realized after a while the Beyonder was becoming boring being "God" and all when sales began to drop, so they de-emphasized him hoping we would be able to relate a little more to him, but we didn't and so he was totally rearranged into this illusion having wacked out half cosmic cube on the behalf of bored cosmic entities with nothing better to do.
Personally I think it was a great creation, to suddenly awaken to have infinite power and not know what to do with it, it could be you it could be me, now that I we can all relate to.

Its likely that he was created to be top of the food chain, i believe at the time it was even stated on panel.

The editors decided to link The Beyonder to pre-existing less powerful entities called The Beyonders who first appeared in Marvel two in one 63. They thought he was too powerful. So at the time he was written he was the most powerful character to appear in Marvel, but since then other characters/powers have appeared who have had more impressive showings on panel so its debatable whether hes the most powerful ever. However its an understandable opinion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its likely that he was created to be top of the food chain, i believe at the time it was even stated on panel.

The editors decided to link The Beyonder to pre-existing less powerful entities called The Beyonders who first appeared in Marvel two in one 63. They thought he was too powerful. So at the time he was written he was the most powerful character to appear in Marvel, but since then other characters/powers have appeared who have had more impressive showings on panel so its debatable whether hes the most powerful ever. However its an understandable opinion.

I see, I knew they connected him to the Beyonders but I didn't know when, so you agree that at his conception he was the most powerful character in marvel? But we now understand that marvel has created characters that have even more power than the Beyonder had in the Secret Wars days, or atleast have demonstrated more power.

Originally posted by unknowable
I see, I knew they connected him to the Beyonders but I didn't know when, so you agree that at his conception he was the most powerful character in marvel? But we now understand that marvel has created characters that have even more power than the Beyonder had in the Secret Wars days, or atleast have demonstrated more power.

Yeah. Thats my view.

Originally posted by unknowable
I see, I knew they connected him to the Beyonders but I didn't know when, so you agree that at his conception he was the most powerful character in marvel? But we now understand that marvel has created characters that have even more power than the Beyonder had in the Secret Wars days, or atleast have demonstrated more power.

Such as ?

Originally posted by Fishy 500
Such as ?

Come on Yahman its not that hard.

Thanos with both the IG and HOTU has pulled off better feats than Beyonder, Phoenixes high end feats since then also outclass anything he did.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Come on Yahman its not that hard.

Thanos with both the IG and HOTU has pulled off better feats than Beyonder, Phoenixes high end feats since then also outclass anything he did.

You've named one character .... the other two are not sentient .... he clearly states characters in plural

Originally posted by Fishy 500
You've named one character .... the other two are not sentient .... he clearly states characters in plural

In hierarchies the likes of the IG and HOTU are regularly included on these forums. I was the one who started talking about other characters who have demonstrated better feats than Pre ret B since Secret Wars and Thanos in said two different circumstances is included. So you have the IG, HOTU and Phoenix. All three artifacts/power sources have given better on panel showings than Pre ret B did in the Secret Wars.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In hierarchies the likes of the IG and HOTU are regularly included on these forums. I was the one who started talking about other characters who have demonstrated better feats than Pre ret B since Secret Wars and Thanos in said two different circumstances is included. So you have the IG, HOTU and Phoenix. All three artifacts/power sources have given better on panel showings than Pre ret B did in the Secret Wars.

GS I gotta admit you know your chit.
By the way where do you get all those cool scans, are they downloadable somewhere or what?

Originally posted by Fishy 500
You've named one character .... the other two are not sentient .... he clearly states characters in plural

If your looking for a list of most powerfuls, I have a thread under Most Powerful Characters in the DC and Marvel Multiverse.
It's been researched and then constructed, most people agree with it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In hierarchies the likes of the IG and HOTU are regularly included on these forums.


But they are not characters. Stop bypassing the question ? Who else has shown power 'beyond' the beyonder (No pun intended) since the Secret wars ?

Mann any excuse to write the same stuff over and over again !

Originally posted by Fishy 500
But they are not characters. Stop bypassing the question ? Who else has shown power 'beyond' the beyonder (No pun intended) since the Secret wars ?

Mann any excuse to write the same stuff over and over again !

He made it plural because i did and i am including the IG and HOTU as well because they normally are in hierarchy threads. That really should be the end of this discussion.

Originally posted by unknowable
GS I gotta admit you know your chit.
By the way where do you get all those cool scans, are they downloadable somewhere or what?

Kind of you to say. Much appreciated. Hope my PM helped you out.

Originally posted by unknowable
GS I gotta admit you know your chit.

oh, yah, he's just full of chit . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
oh, yah, he's just full of chit . . .

Knowledgeable chit. Lets get that clear!!!

I don't agree, classic Beyonder was depowered because he was made to be
more powerful than everything combined, yes the multi-verse is what i'm talking about, as a matter of fact the on panel it states that the Beyonder was the sum total of a universe so vast that 616 universe was like a drop of water in an ocean in comparison, on panel.

So if this is a fact, how are people saying he's global scale or even universe scale, Beyonder was incalculably beyond that.

Originally posted by demigawd
Now pre-retcon Beyonder was powerful, but he still didn't have the power to destroy the universe. Even at his best, his power seemed limited to a single planet at a time.
You have to be joking. Destroying one planet or hundred planets, that was no big deal for pre-retcon Beyonder.

He could - almost - do everything he wanted. He was so powerful no (cosmic) being could kill him without his permission. He "killed" Death and kicked Celestials around (yeah yeah I know about the illusions but I couldn't care less), he could make Galactus his slave, Eternity was afraid of him, Mephisto was afraid of him and so on...

Not exactly "at best, limited to a single planet "

Moving

Nope

TOAA is the boss of this multiverse but you all know there are other multiverses so please dont bring up that he is TOAA thus meaning he is above all and cannot lose cause that is not so and stupid, DC's presance had an equal called the dark beast, supposidly the brothers are his equal when combined even if they arent the dark beast is the only example i need. but yes the beyonder and i state from the comic book (secret wars 2) had power several hundred times that of the multiverse combined.

Originally posted by Mider
TOAA is the boss of this multiverse but you all know there are other multiverses so please dont bring up that he is TOAA thus meaning he is above all and cannot lose cause that is not so and stupid, DC's presance had an equal called the dark beast, supposidly the brothers are his equal when combined even if they arent the dark beast is the only example i need. but yes the beyonder and i state from the comic book (secret wars 2) had power several hundred times that of the multiverse combined.

So do you agree he was more powerful than the TOAA and the Presence aswell,
or do you think they where all equals as the great evil beast is too?

I completely agree with you because it's on panel and it's indisputable that he really was, at his conception, more powerful than many multi-verses combined,
and bottom line definately more powerful than the marvel multi-verse combined, that's what make it even crazier, not just more powerful than anyone in the marvel multi-verse, but even if you combined as one every single mortal, immortal, alien, cosmic, deity, abstract, demon upto even that which destroys and creates in the marvel multi-verse Phoenix, youd still have nothing next to the Beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So do you agree he was more powerful than the TOAA and the Presence aswell,
or do you think they where all equals as the great evil beast is too?

I completely agree with you because it's on panel and it's indisputable that he really was, at his conception, more powerful than many multi-verses combined,
and bottom line definately more powerful than the marvel multi-verse combined, that's what make it even crazier, not just more powerful than anyone in the marvel multi-verse, but even if you combined as one every single mortal, immortal, alien, cosmic, deity, abstract, demon upto even that which destroys and creates in the marvel multi-verse Phoenix, youd still have nothing next to the Beyonder.

On panel comments and claims by characters when not backed up by feats are less than nothing in debates where only conclusive on panel evidence counts. I have no doubt that when Beyonder was created in his time he probably was the most powerful Marvel character, however since then other characters have been written to be debatably more powerful and conclusively have better feats than anything he ever did. As i said before he was good in his day but how he'd compare in that form to powers like the IG, HOTU and the White Crown Phoenix is debatable, however theyve all at least got better feats.

In response to demigawd, i agree. The only person more powerful than the Living Tribunal is his creator, The One Above All

Originally posted by unknowable
Yea But since the Beyonder existed outside the Multiverse and apparantly was the sum total of his universe, one must wonder if he was atleast equal to the TOAA, after all there are probably lots of One Above Alls throughout the so called Omniverse which is the sum total of all multi-verses. Because after all TOAA is the creator of the Marvel multi-verse, but outside that there may be let's say the Presence, which is TOAA of the the DC multi-verse, but then be may be character "X" who is TOAA of the "X" multi-verse and so on and so on.


But wouldn't the existence of more than one TOAA by definition contradict the name and existence of TOAA itself. i personally think it more likely there is one TOAA which transcends the multiple universes

Originally posted by willRules
But wouldn't the existence of more than one TOAA by definition contradict the name and existence of TOAA itself. i personally think it more likely there is one TOAA which transcends the multiple universes I agree, and IMO the most powerful fictional character we've seen in Marvel so far is the Red Brother.

He was the sum of EVERYTHING in Marvel. For all intents and purposes, he WAS Marvel. LT was awed by his power, he even tried to stop the Brother, and it did nothing.

I personally would place him above Beyonder for that reason alone.

My favorite characters, the 'Brothers'.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
On panel comments and claims by characters when not backed up by feats are less than nothing in debates where only conclusive on panel evidence counts. I have no doubt that when Beyonder was created in his time he probably was the most powerful Marvel character, however since then other characters have been written to be debatably more powerful and conclusively have better feats than anything he ever did. As i said before he was good in his day but how he'd compare in that form to powers like the IG, HOTU and the White Crown Phoenix is debatable, however theyve all at least got better feats.

What has Thanos w IG or White Pheonix of the Crown done that even rivals what Classic Beyonder has done ?