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So here it is i dont know if anyone else has done this but the insane spectre who has been basically destroying magic all over the DCU comes into the Marvel Universe sensing magic there as well of course being the way they are every single Marvel hero will group together to stop such a threat so what would happen? Would Spectre lose against the powerful beings of the MU Odin, Mephesto, Celestials etc etc.

yes

Yep basically

although he is uber powerful, hes not in league with most of MU cosmics, and the fact that he can undoubtibly warp DC universe he has no authority there and so he won't be as powerful as he is in Marvel Universe.

"although he is uber powerful, hes not in league with most of MU cosmics, "


???

LT, Eternity, PF, Infinity , Oblivion, Infinites

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
LT, Eternity, PF, Infinity , Oblivion, Infinites And you think he's weaker than them why..?
Spectre's feats supersede any of them.

LT stops him.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
LT stops him. LT is more powerful than The Logoz?

TOAA stops him

It would take the supreme being to stop him just like in dc universe.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
LT stops him.
wrong

He's in the Marvel Universe now. TOAA tells him stop Spectre, that's it. LT can call upon every single being in the Marvel Universe just like he did before and send Spectre packing. Backed by the Abstracts, The Vishanti, The Celestials and what not, Spectre gets stopped. A hooker stole the powers of the Spectre, man what do you think LT will do to him? Logoz equals two things in the Marvel Universe. Jack Sh!t.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
He's in the Marvel Universe now. TOAA tells him stop Spectre, that's it. LT can call upon every single being in the Marvel Universe just like he did before and send Spectre packing. Backed by the Abstracts, The Vishanti, The Celestials and what not, Spectre gets stopped. A hooker stole the powers of the Spectre, man what do you think LT will do to him? Logoz equals two things in the Marvel Universe. Jack Sh!t.
I repeat.
And you think he's weaker than them why..?
Spectre's feats supersede any of them.


I will agree that however Marvel's supreme being could step in and stop him, that's pretty much a given anyways and rather irrelivent.

TOAA's left testicle will stop Spectre.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
TOAA's left testicle will stop Spectre. lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
I repeat.
And you think he's weaker than them why..?
Spectre's feats supersede any of them.


I will agree that however Marvel's supreme being could step in and stop him, that's pretty much a given anyways and rather irrelivent.

All those magical beings he beat up... Are they equal to the likes of LT in anyway? TOAA decrees Spectre must be stopped, that's it. LT and his posse will stop him.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
All those magical beings he beat up... Are they equal to the likes of LT in anyway? TOAA decrees Spectre must be stopped, that's it. LT and his posse will stop him. I won't dispute that, however without the influence of the supreme being, there's no evidence to prove any of them have what it takes.
Spectre's feats supersede any of them.

LT will call his posse

Take a look at the pic:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/MU_THE_END_1.jpg

If each and every single being their attacks the Spectre at once, he will retreat or be defeated.

'undoubtibly warp DC universe he has no authority im MU and so he won't be as powerful as he is in DC universe .'

Ok let's check

Spectre - Divine Vengeance

Living Tribunal - Gods second in command

Yeah Lt pretty much owns Spectre , they tried to make them equals in that laughable 'brothers' crossover but it was quite obvious their was an almighty gap between them.

The spectre would be sent packing from the marvel universe by LT. All of the spectres infinte power in DC would not amount to that much in marvel{not saying he aint gonna be powerful} and LT would pass judgement on him and send him packing

from what we have seen in the vengeance nothing indicates that Spectre can be stopped.The supreme being had to put him back with a host to put an end to his so called rampage but that really aint make much sense since after killing Nabu Spectre's goal was accomplished.

So once agin Dc create a stupidly large plot hole.....

'All of the spectres infinte power in DC would not amount to that much in marvel{not saying he aint gonna be powerful} and LT would pass'

exatcly it ain't his universe so he ain't going to be in complete comand or at his best powerset

Spectre gets stopped at Wolverine...

Originally posted by grey fox

Living Tribunal - Gods second in command



Where does it say LT serves God? It never has done that was just an assumption after he said in Infinity Watch that he serves a being greater than Eternity or the IG. Thats far from conclusive. Recent years have seen beings beyond those powers. Are they supreme beings?

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
He's in the Marvel Universe now. TOAA tells him stop Spectre, that's it. LT can call upon every single being in the Marvel Universe just like he did before and send Spectre packing. Backed by the Abstracts, The Vishanti, The Celestials and what not, Spectre gets stopped. A hooker stole the powers of the Spectre, man what do you think LT will do to him? Logoz equals two things in the Marvel Universe. Jack Sh!t.


This is one of the reasons I love KMC!

The amont of misinformation that floods this forum day in day out, particularly when people post half-truths.

When did the Spectre's powers get 'stolen' by a 'hooker?'

That would sure be interesting, because I have the entire Day of Vengeance arc and I never saw ANY hooker steal his powers .....for the matter there was no hooker of any sort in the entire thing. Thus I am curious where this amazing hooker who goes around DC stealing the powers of deity-level beings came from?
Very curious.

For the matter the only time 'hooker' is mentioned is when the girl (...her name is Lori ....also known as Black Alice....the one who co-opted the powers of the Spectre, and the one people in KMC claim is a 'hooker'...most of whom never even saw the front cover of Day of Vengeance ....said that she thought NightShade was dressed like a hooker.

Now, what I saw was a teenage girl (Lori/Black Alice) , who lives with her dad, and is capable of trouncing even the most potent magic wielders in DC.

For example she took Fate's power for 30 minutes. Meaning that she basically co-opted the powers of Nabu, and elder god of Order.
Took the powers of Zatanna for 30 minutes.
And in both cases above neither could do anything about it.

And she co-opted the powers of the Spectre for a while (she couldn't even keep it for more than some seconds before it started to slip back to the Spectre).
However she did take his powers.

However I laugh when that is used to show that the Spectre is 'weak' ....after all she was 'beaten by a hooker' (although she did NOT beat the Spectre, even when she stole his powers he basically became intangible to physical and magical harm, and thus invulnerable; and she was NOT a hooker). But hey, start something in KMC and it takes a life of its own (reminds me of those threads some months back on 'Flash Prime' that had so many people using him in their threads even when he was just some imaginary character someone had started as a prank).

Oh, and that 'hooker' can do the same exact thing to ANY Marvel magic-wielder who stepped into DC.
She took the power of the Spectre.
The power of Fate.

She will take the power of Dr Strange just as easily.

Anyways, going back to the Spectre.
If he is in Marvel, he will be defeated by the LT since LT is roughly his analogue in the MU.
In the same vein, if the LT comes to DC, he will be defeated by the SPectre.

However all the other characters would basically be fodder. Even characters like Strange would meet the fate of the the Wizard Shazam (who is powerful enough to have been part of the quintessence, yet he was destroyed by the Spectre and his Rock of Eternity, the fount of all magic in DC, blown apart).
What about the Vishanti?
Well, during Spectre's rampage he was killing even gods in space (like those that gave Hawk and Dove powers) ....he basically slew a Lord of Chaos, and a Lord of Order, just by looking at them.

And he turned the Phantom Stranger into a mouse ....the PS.
And once again what he did to Shazam (the Wizard), and the rock of Eternity.

To quote Wolfman (one of DC's premier writers) .....'the SPectre is basically god in DC.'

Anyways, pertinent to this thread the Spectre loses in the MU ....because of the LT.
Not because of anyone else.

And if the LT comes into the DCU then the LT will be defeated.

Oh, and no 'hookers' will be involved in anything here.

Yes that is all Good an nice, but he;s in MU now not DC universe so he aint doing shit, as powerful he is he aint going to be in the universe he is assigned to where he has near complete controlo of the unverse magic included but he will not have that in MU plus the fact that both universe are not the same and have different laws, physiscs and nature so i doubt if the 'hooker could do the same to Doctor strange' or if Spectre will get sent back to DC by LT with a click of a finger.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where does it say LT serves God? It never has done that was just an assumption after he said in Infinity Watch that he serves a being greater than Eternity or the IG. Thats far from conclusive. Recent years have seen beings beyond those powers. Are they supreme beings?

Stories come and go. LT does not. And guess what? He does serve a power higher than himself. Is it God? Marvel does not have a God.

I'll explain this to you GS. Even before Killermovie comic forum came into existence. TOAA was stated/mentioned by forums such as Superherochat.net, Comicbookresources.com, & Comixtreme.com.

For those who wonder about in only Killermovie forum, the perception is that TOAA was some invention by misinformed and newbies to comics in this messageboard.

Guess what, you go to Superherochat.net & Comicbookresources.com and you'll find mostly avid readers who'll tell you more about TOAA and LT.

Furthermore, LT is by far the top visible being in MU. He's remained so. TOAA is the name given by readers from this and forums that existed before this one. The force, the being, whatever it is that LT serves.

God? There is no GOD in the MU. LT is at the top. Yet even he acknowledges surving a higher power. TOAA>LT. TOAA is equate to be God by posters (not Marvel) because both are supreme being and unchallenged. Again there is no God, only LT and that he serves.

GS, you have good arguments on Phoenix and opinions on the hierarchy of the MU. You want more info and even better debates, again try Superherochat.net and Comicbookresources.com. I know what I know, but they know more.

Furthermore, as much as I and others dismiss and ridicule your crusade, Dizzle, Ill, and KGKG have acknowledged some of what you say is true. Again, posters at those forums are more well versed. If anyone needs convincing, it's posters of those forums.

Originally posted by Juntai
I won't dispute that, however without the influence of the supreme being, there's no evidence to prove any of them have what it takes.
Spectre's feats supersede any of them.

LT stops him. Spectre was stomping throw Skyfather level beings and up. Thanos & Warlock did the same thing. When they weren't toying with them, IG wielders beat Eternity, Galactus, Celestials, and others just by merely wishing it.

LT snapped his fingers and order was restored. Eternity and others were without a scratch even though Warlock was whipping them all earlier.

When it came down to LT and the IG, it was thoughts, wishes, and snaps of the fingers and things were done.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Stories come and go. LT does not. And guess what? He does serve a power higher than himself. Is it God? Marvel does not have a God.

I'll explain this to you GS. Even before Killermovie comic forum came into existence. TOAA was stated/mentioned by forums such as Superherochat.net, Comicbookresources.com, & Comixtreme.com.

For those who wonder about in only Killermovie forum, the perception is that TOAA was some invention by misinformed and newbies to comics in this messageboard.

Guess what, you go to Superherochat.net & Comicbookresources.com and you'll find mostly avid readers who'll tell you more about TOAA and LT.

Furthermore, LT is by far the top visible being in MU. He's remained so. TOAA is the name given by readers from this and forums that existed before this one. The force, the being, whatever it is that LT serves.

God? There is no GOD in the MU. LT is at the top. Yet even he acknowledges surving a higher power. TOAA>LT. TOAA is equate to be God by posters (not Marvel) because both are supreme being and unchallenged. Again there is no God, only LT and that he serves.

GS, you have good arguments on Phoenix and opinions on the hierarchy of the MU. You want more info and even better debates, again try Superherochat.net and Comicbookresources.com. I know what I know, but they know more.

Furthermore, as much as I and others dismiss and ridicule your crusade, Dizzle, Ill, and KGKG have acknowledged some of what you say is true. Again, posters at those forums are more well versed. If anyone needs convincing, it's posters of those forums.

All we have heard regarding LT's master is that it is a force beyond the IG, Eternity and LT. Since that early 90's title there have been a number of forces shown on panel to be beyond them. Are they supreme beings as well then?

Thats all it comes down to. Youre making assumptions based on his role and a vague line in a 90's comic. Its not enough. Theres far more on panel evidence supporting Phoenix as an aspect of God but as its not actually stated on panel i can only say its heavily suggested. The same doesnt hold true for LT and yet youre claiming a supreme being connection as canon. It doesnt work like that im afraid.

Heres a good post from Leo that sums it up perfectly:

Originally posted by leonidas
gotta side with gs, here. the way lt is represented on these forums people speak as though it has somehow been conclusively proven that he serves the 'supreme being' aka god, when in fact NEITHER of these assumptions have been proven in anyway at all.

the only thing proven is that lt serves something greater than him. could it be 'god'? i suppose . . . though i'd need a lot more on-panel evidence to take that side of the argument. lt's powers/decisions HAVE been overcome before and challenged many times, so we know he's not even the most powerful entity WITHIN the multi/megaverse.

the heart of gs's point is this, (correct me if i'm wrong gs!): people don't like when gs draws connections between pf and 'god', BUT there HAVE been many on-panel inferences (not conclusive proof, mind) to support the notion that this is at least possible and a viable interpretation. meanwhile, many seem to assume lt serves as god's judge, when there is in fact practically ZERO evidence to support this claim.

say what you will about gs and his pf ideas, at least he does his best to depict his theory with on-panel evidence (some of which MAY be open to interpretation . . . ) this whole lt-serves-god-thing CANNOT be likewise supported. based on what has appeared in comics, pf has a much stronger claim to be tied in someway to 'god' than lt does.

'Well, during Spectre's rampage he was killing even gods in space (like those that gave Hawk and Dove powers) ....he basically slew a Lord of Chaos, and a Lord of Order, just by looking at them. '

When did this happen .... I know they where compared to his level in Teen Titans, but i havn't heard of him killing any of them ?

IMO Spectre is FAR beyond the Lords of Chaos and Order. Shazam was able to subdue Mordru for an extended period of time, and we saw what Spectre did to him. Spectre has also managed to send Hector Hall (who is basically Nabu) into a Hellish Dimension, (I love the cameo of Sandman, in the recent JSA) ....

I think Spectre beats any one up to Abstract level, including the big G. Eternity has total control over the universe (according to the recent defenders mini), Spectre is not on this scale, as seen in the original crisis, when he struggled against the Antii Monitor.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres far more on panel evidence supporting Phoenix as an aspect of God but as its not actually stated on panel i can only say its heavily suggested. The same doesnt hold true for LT and yet youre claiming a supreme being connection as canon. It doesnt work like that im afraid.

God? All it said was White Crown and Creation. All the GOD stuff comes from your interpretation of the White Crown with Kaballah. Does it even say GOD? You went on this Crusade about how Phoenix Force and the White Crown being related to God and thus PF is more powerful than the Heart and LT. Then you backtracked and put PF and LT on equal footing. At one time, you even claimed that LT represent Metatron, top angel that serves God, and therefore he still ranks below PF. And for some reason, you assumed MU has GOD as it's top being? You want as far as to bring in angels and such into the MU as if it were DC. But even to do that, you needed to pull out Kaballah principals and make assumptions. Funny thing is, there IS NO GOD in the MU.

Heck, if you want, I can draw parallels between Adam Warlock and Jesus as well, bringing the bible into this. Warlock is also three GOD in one: Warlock, Magus, and Goddess.

As for LT, he surves a higher power. What other visible being is greater than LT? And yet LT still serves somebody does he not? LT serves TOAA. You wanna say TOAA is not GOD, fine. Because there IS NO GOD in Marvel.

As for supreme being, so far LT operates above the IG and even the Star Brand. During the IG saga, the story was that the Infinity Gems came from the destruction of the Infinty Being. Guess what? LT shut down the IG and while Warlock couldn't do a thing.

Nobody needs to bring the Christianity or Kaballaism into this to know LT at the top of the hierarchy. You, however, have to write an entire essay and add Kaballah principles - which hold no place in the MU - to make some point that PF represents GOD/Supreme Being.

As for Thanos with the Heart, Thanos was tricked was tricked. Even then, did it mention that his power was that of GOD's? As for as it goes, LT guards over the Multiverse and serves one who is above him.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All we have heard regarding LT's master is that it is a force beyond the IG, Eternity and LT. Since that early 90's title there have been a number of forces shown on panel to be beyond them. Are they supreme beings as well then?

Thats all it comes down to. Youre making assumptions based on his role and a vague line in a 90's comic. Its not enough. Theres far more on panel evidence supporting Phoenix as an aspect of God but as its not actually stated on panel i can only say its heavily suggested. The same doesnt hold true for LT and yet youre claiming a supreme being connection as canon. It doesnt work like that im afraid.

Heres a good post from Leo that sums it up perfectly: here we go again with the phoenix bullshit....damnit.....

The point is, if he's written to optimum capability, like it says in the forum rules, and not automatically depowered, because "it's the Marvel universe", then he will find little worthy opposition.

Originally posted by Beyonder
God? All it said was White Crown and Creation. All the GOD stuff comes from your interpretation of the White Crown with Kaballah. Does it even say GOD? You went on this Crusade about how Phoenix Force and the White Crown being related to God and thus PF is more powerful than the Heart and LT. Then you backtracked and put PF and LT on equal footing. At one time, you even claimed that LT represent Metatron, top angel that serves God, and therefore he still ranks below PF. And for some reason, you assumed MU has GOD as it's top being? You want as far as to bring in angels and such into the MU as if it were DC. But even to do that, you needed to pull out Kaballah principals and make assumptions. Funny thing is, there IS NO GOD in the MU.

Heck, if you want, I can draw parallels between Adam Warlock and Jesus as well, bringing the bible into this. Warlock is also three GOD in one: Warlock, Magus, and Goddess.

As for LT, he surves a higher power. What other visible being is greater than LT? And yet LT still serves somebody does he not? LT serves TOAA. You wanna say TOAA is not GOD, fine. Because there IS NO GOD in Marvel.

As for supreme being, so far LT operates above the IG and even the Star Brand. During the IG saga, the story was that the Infinity Gems came from the destruction of the Infinty Being. Guess what? LT shut down the IG and while Warlock couldn't do a thing.

Nobody needs to bring the Christianity or Kaballaism into this to know LT at the top of the hierarchy. You, however, have to write an entire essay and add Kaballah principles - which hold no place in the MU - to make some point that PF represents GOD/Supreme Being.

As for Thanos with the Heart, Thanos was tricked was tricked. Even then, did it mention that his power was that of GOD's? As for as it goes, LT guards over the Multiverse and serves one who is above him.

No need to go into a rant and no need for me to reply to all of this because at the end of the day youve got nothing to support yourself with on panel.

LT serves a being who is greater than the Infinity Gauntlet and Eternity. Thats all that was said. Since the early 90's there have been beings shown on panel to be more powerful than those things. No need to rant its as simple as that.

God or supreme being whatever you call it, it represents and entails the same thing. Dont be so fallacious. The force LT serves isnt conclusively the supreme being.

As both i and Leo have said Phoenix has a stronger case for a God connection, for example its canon that its power creates the multiverse that LT guards, its been presented as one and the same as DC's Source in a crossover, its been referred to by names which mean by real life principles aspects of God and its role in Marvel matches up with said aspects as far as we've seen. Despite that its not canon that Phoenix is an aspect of the supreme being as it hasnt been stated. I have learned to accept that. You need to do the same with LT. Accept that its merely suggested dont present your opinion as canon.

Originally posted by King KAM
here we go again with the phoenix bullshit....damnit.....

Oh dont u start pretty boy lol. Hows the modelling going anyway?

Originally posted by King KAM
here we go again with the phoenix bullshit....damnit.....

It's so true "Phoenix Bullshit", anyway if Krona is anything to go by............ The Marvel Universe dies!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

As both i and Leo have said Phoenix has a stronger case for a God connection, for example its canon that its power creates the multiverse that LT guards, its been presented as one and the same as DC's Source in a crossover, its been referred to by names which mean by real life principles aspects of God and its role in Marvel matches up with said aspects as far as we've seen.

? What principles? Kaballah? Warlock is Jesus then. Even when Thanos had the Heart, Warlock was still on top.



And yet PC Darkseid mindraped her. So much for being equal to the Source. She was free only be the end of it.

And if you want to bring crossovers into this, LT and Spectre were trying to find their master. Phoenix wasn't even in it - it was the Brothers. And if you want to discount the Brothers, we'll it was still LT and Spectre who were the top of the hierarchy. What White Crown is there?

At the top of the hieararchy is LT. You, however, for some reason believe PF = GOD when their is no GOD in the MU. People compare TOAA to GOD. But there is NO actual GOD in MU.

Originally posted by Beyonder
God? All it said was White Crown and Creation. All the GOD stuff comes from your interpretation of the White Crown with Kaballah. Does it even say GOD? You went on this Crusade about how Phoenix Force and the White Crown being related to God and thus PF is more powerful than the Heart and LT. Then you backtracked and put PF and LT on equal footing. At one time, you even claimed that LT represent Metatron, top angel that serves God, and therefore he still ranks below PF. And for some reason, you assumed MU has GOD as it's top being? You want as far as to bring in angels and such into the MU as if it were DC. But even to do that, you needed to pull out Kaballah principals and make assumptions. Funny thing is, there IS NO GOD in the MU.

Heck, if you want, I can draw parallels between Adam Warlock and Jesus as well, bringing the bible into this. Warlock is also three GOD in one: Warlock, Magus, and Goddess.

As for LT, he surves a higher power. What other visible being is greater than LT? And yet LT still serves somebody does he not? LT serves TOAA. You wanna say TOAA is not GOD, fine. Because there IS NO GOD in Marvel.

As for supreme being, so far LT operates above the IG and even the Star Brand. During the IG saga, the story was that the Infinity Gems came from the destruction of the Infinty Being. Guess what? LT shut down the IG and while Warlock couldn't do a thing.

Nobody needs to bring the Christianity or Kaballaism into this to know LT at the top of the hierarchy. You, however, have to write an entire essay and add Kaballah principles - which hold no place in the MU - to make some point that PF represents GOD/Supreme Being.

As for Thanos with the Heart, Thanos was tricked was tricked. Even then, did it mention that his power was that of GOD's? As for as it goes, LT guards over the Multiverse and serves one who is above him.

All true Beyonder.

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
'All of the spectres infinte power in DC would not amount to that much in marvel{not saying he aint gonna be powerful} and LT would pass'

exatcly it ain't his universe so he ain't going to be in complete comand or at his best powerset

- Krona It's canon

Originally posted by Beyonder
? What principles? Kaballah? Warlock is Jesus then. Even when Thanos had the Heart, Warlock was still on top.



And yet PC Darkseid mindraped her. So much for being equal to the Source. She was free only be the end of it.

And if you want to bring crossovers into this, LT and Spectre were trying to find their master. Phoenix wasn't even in it - it was the Brothers. And if you want to discount the Brothers, we'll it was still LT and Spectre who were the top of the hierarchy. What White Crown is there?

At the top of the hieararchy is LT. You, however, for some reason believe PF = GOD when their is no GOD in the MU. People compare TOAA to GOD. But there is NO actual GOD in MU.

Sacrificing yourself doesnt make you Jesus im afraid Beyonder. Dont be silly. Were parallels drawn? Yeah maybe, but so what? His other actions and role in Marvel didnt correlate with the real life stories and he wasnt referred to as an aspect of God. Phoenix at least has a role which made it feasible plus on top of that her actions and the parallels drawn and that crossover meant that it was heavily suggested albeit not canon because its never been stated. But thats cool.

LTs master isnt God until its stated. His masters stronger than the IG and Eternity so from that you get that he's the supreme being? By that logic all the forces debatably shown to be stronger than those things can be supreme beings. Or alternatively you can take the sensible route and say while its suggested theres nothing conclusive. Its not canon.

Spectre loses against who? hmm Odin? no zues no mephesto no SS you all wish but no LT nope LT cant even beat Korvac and he didnt snap his fingers he told Warlock to give up the IG or there fight would destroy the universe you guys always leave that fact out also that Eternity refers to him as a peer not a superior you guys leave that out to and what diffrence does it make if Spectre has no authority did he have authority in the fifth dimension? i think not but he still pretty much messed things up so that the imps are powerless.

how is Spectre struggling with the anti moniter weak the guy was consuming the multiverse im so sure that LT would have been able to do much since he hasnt even shown any such great feats as you all say what feats does he have that make him be able to do the garbage you all say? a nova so what an angel from spawn can do that destroy a universe bull never seen it happen and who cares if thats true anyway the ig could do that spectre took out ALL OF MAGIC HELLOOOOOOOO even the IG was over looked by the magic of DR strange eternity is stronger then Spectre heh rightttt Parallax was rewriting reality ONE gauridan of the universe killed Galactus and Parallax has all there powers sept Ganthets and you say Eternity could beat Spectre who is above even Parallax you all wish this was so but its not he has taken on armies of ghosts and demons and has slayed gods like rodents give me a break.

Dr. Stephen Strange kills spectre....

cant kill the spectre i think and no he couldnt

Marvel and DC have both agreed that spectre and LT occupy the same niche in their respective universes. It stand's to reason that for the purpose of comic discussions, that they are at relatively the same power level. However, seeing as this is an insane spectre w/o the approval of the presence, LT would send him packing as commanded by TOAA. But spectre would do shitloads of damage, as his 1st targets would be magical, not cosmic. So dr. strange, the vishantii..etc would all get owned. powerful, they may be, spectre can absorb magic from anything and he's god's vengence (divine rank counts). LT's 3 heads all have to agree for it to take action, and it takes some major shit to go down for him to act. So in the interest of time: spectre lays waste to marvel's magic before LT kicks his ass.

no LT allowed since he would be the spectre's equal NO LT ALLOWED PEOPLE. so how does Spectre do against the DCU with out the interference of TOAA or LT.

i dont think LT's power levels go up and down

Originally posted by Mider
no LT allowed since he would be the spectre's equal NO LT ALLOWED PEOPLE. so how does Spectre do against the DCU with out the interference of TOAA or LT.

Well, if u don't allow LT then the argument becomes moot, nothing short of all the celestials is even gonna slow spectre down. How is doc strange gonna fight the wrath of God? This is gonna be even more of a one sided fight if u have spectre attack other people. Spectre vs spiderman??

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
- Krona It's canon

what did Krona do to LT, NOTHING or for that matter any Marvel cosmics who i listed NONE.

he only manage to trap Eternity and KISMIT (dc) WITH THE ITEMS HE MANAGE TO JACK.

so WHATS YOUR POINT AGAIN.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It's so true "Phoenix Bullshit", anyway if Krona is anything to go by............ The Marvel Universe dies!

FUNNY THING IS so does DC

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Sacrificing yourself doesnt make you Jesus im afraid Beyonder. Dont be silly. Were parallels drawn? Yeah maybe, but so what? His other actions and role in Marvel didnt correlate with the real life stories and he wasnt referred to as an aspect of God. Phoenix at least has a role which made it feasible plus on top of that her actions and the parallels drawn and that crossover meant that it was heavily suggested albeit not canon because its never been stated. But thats cool.


Finally, grudgingly admitted it's your interpretation

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

LTs master isnt God until its stated. His masters stronger than the IG and Eternity so from that you get that he's the supreme being? By that logic all the forces debatably shown to be stronger than those things can be supreme beings. Or alternatively you can take the sensible route and say while its suggested theres nothing conclusive. Its not canon.

Again you admit its an opinion well done, Being more Powerful than LT doesn't mean a whole another tier exists till it's not stated.

come on id think there would be more debate with the guys in MU i mean Spectre isnt beating DC in a day how would it go he would go dimension by dimension the beyonders realm and such that would be intresting if the beyonders were as powerful as the fifty dimesion imps who knows maybe there even more they were so smart they made the high evolutionary wanna kill himself.

im sure that adam warlock would make a futile atempt to defeat spectre and the cosmics would gather for sure to fight wow how would that go. since MU is a multiverse and has several eternites and galactus and lord orders and chaos does that mean there is more then one spectre? or is he strong enough to take over ALL the DCU multiverse?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Sacrificing yourself doesnt make you Jesus im afraid Beyonder. Dont be silly. Were parallels drawn? Yeah maybe, but so what? His other actions and role in Marvel didnt correlate with the real life stories and he wasnt referred to as an aspect of God.

Like Jesus, Warlock's birth was unnatural. He was conceived via a Cocoon created by H.I.V.E. Warlock sacrificed himself/crucified by Man-Beast. Later he was ressurected and defeated Man-Beast to soul Counter Earth. He died sometime later. Then during the IG saga, Warlock came back and stopped Thanos. Gaining the IG, he became GOD, it stated even so. During that time, he divided himself into Warlock, Magus, and Goddess. They were three persons, but all came from one - Adam Warlock. During the End, Warlock again arose oppose and beat Thanos.

But once more, GOD and Jesus are not Marvel's top being. It's thrown around alot, and even its ideas, but that doesn't make Warlock or Phoenix or any others with correlations of GOD/Jesus the top being of the MU.



Feasible? Where did it even say that she was an aspect of God? You wanna draw parallels? LT and Spectre weren't looking for the Source and Phoenix when the cosmos was in danger.



And it never stated that Phoenix is GOD or an aspect of GOD. Nor is GOD Marvel's top being. As for Eternity and the IG, LT himself is more powerful than both. TOAA doesn't even need to be brought into this.

Did it ever even refer to Phoenix as being at the top of the hierarchy or food chain? PF even needs hosts to do it job much like Galactus, Eternity, Death, etc. have a counterparts for each universe. There's only one LT - he himself is multiversal.

As for TOAA, LT serves the force or one that's above all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I really dont need to reply to all of this as its all been dealt with previously. If not in this thread, then a multitude of others.

Before we start i need to clear something up with you. God is just another name for the supreme being. If you feel more comfortable just saying supreme being then thats fine, but getting caught up on that wording will not advance your case any further.

Its pointless saying "Oh look parallels have been drawn between Warlock and Jesus". That changes not a thing. Why? Because Warlock doesnt have a role in Marvel creation that makes such a connection feasible.

Phoenix as per current continuity is responsible for Marvel creation. Its power made it, its power sustains it. The same creation LT guards. You have the Phoenix Consciousness that exists in the white hot room and it manifests into creation as the Big Bangs from which the universes of Marvels multiverse are formed. So your point about there being only one LT is void. Yeah there are many Phoenixes at a universal level, but there is only one Crown/White Hot Room.

Since New X-men v1's end the white hot room otherwise referred to on panel as "the core" and origin point of creation, "the heart of the phoenix" has been made canon. References to it can be found in Official Hbook Xmen 2005 and O Hbook: Alternate Universes 2005.

Heres a previous post of mine which highlights the parallels drawn, references used and symbology on panel which suggest a connection between Phoenix and God.



That is a far better case than the LT one which is all highly unsupported speculation stemming from the lines:

"""My judge is a strange entity the others claim is a representative of a power above Eternity and myself"""

"""I represent forces that dwarf your might"""

"""My authority comes from on high"""

Your case is those lines plus LT's role in the multiverse. You need to understand that you have nothing conclusive. That is the only fact here. While your viewpoint is inferred by these statements and his role it isnt canon. Again that is fact and that point is not debatable.

I can accept that Phoenixes god connection while heavily suggested (certainly alot more than LTs) by parallels and its integral role in Marvel, it isnt actually stated on panel. Its not canon. you read too much x-men brutha....

Originally posted by King KAM
you read too much x-men brutha....

He just posts a lot of supposition and hope people don't see how tenuous his ideas are KK in my opinion. He hates people like Beyonder, you ans I who see through it I think.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
He just posts a lot of supposition and hope people don't see how tenuous his ideas are KK in my opinion. He hates people like Beyonder, you ans I who see through it I think. I am well aware of this, you know that me and you are psi-linked.

Lt was not clearly above the IG. There was nothing on panel that confirmed that. Adam Warlock let out a power blast and LT cancelled out its effects on his person. Something Dr Strange did repeatedly in a confrontation with Adam W with the IG.

LT went on to say he didnt know whether he had the power to stand up against Adam Warlock with the IG. He then went on to persuade AW to give up his power rather than forcing him to find out which would result in the destruction of the universe anyway. Not conclusive im afraid.

He said his masters power was beyond the IG. He was unsure about where how his own power would fare. Thats a fact.

Going by his on panel feats its certainly doesnt stand to reason that he is more powerful than the IG.

I need only point out how LT performed against Korvac who merely had the assembled power of half a dozen of the universes cosmic entities(Less than IG). His judgement was shrugged off and he sealed off that universe and fled.

He did the same thing when he had to deal with the Star Brand.

Im sorry but its not conclusive that hes beyond the IG, its not even apparent from his appearances.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
He just posts a lot of supposition and hope people don't see how tenuous his ideas are KK in my opinion. He hates people like Beyonder, you ans I who see through it I think.

You havent bothered to read my post and are making assumptions.

Silly silly.

The whole point of my argument is that in both cases the links to God arent canon. So that renders your post somewhat irrelevant im afraid.

As is ever the case

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lt was not clearly above the IG. There was nothing on panel that confirmed that. Adam Warlock let out a power blast and LT cancelled out its effects on his person. Something Dr Strange did repeatedly in a confrontation with Adam W with the IG.

LT went on to say he didnt know whether he had the power to stand up against Adam Warlock with the IG. He then went on to persuade AW to give up his power rather than forcing him to find out which would result in the destruction of the universe anyway. Not conclusive im afraid.

He said his masters power was beyond the IG. He was unsure about where how his own power would fare. Thats a fact.

Going by his on panel feats its certainly doesnt stand to reason that he is more powerful than the IG.

I need only point out how LT performed against Korvac who merely had the assembled power of half a dozen of the universes cosmic entities(Less than IG). His judgement was shrugged off and he sealed off that universe and fled.

He did the same thing when he had to deal with the Star Brand.

Im sorry but its not conclusive that hes beyond the IG, its not even apparent from his appearances.

The L.T's a bit of a jobber isn't he ?

Originally posted by Fishy 500
The L.T's a bit of a jobber isn't he ?

Thats what im trying to say.

Based on those few vague lines and his role you really cant make a case for him being servant to the supreme being. Not when powers beyond the IG and Eternity have appeared since then and, not with the number of occassions his judgements have been overturned or shrugged off.

Phoenix has a better case for being linked with God but i'll gladly say that thats not canon until its stated. It just amazes me that the same people who dismissed my decently supported connection theory can happily accept an LT god connection with little to no on panel evidence. It has to work both ways.

The highest order of angels, the seraphim reside in the Crown. (Seraphim comes from Seraph which means to consume with fire). The seraphim are traditionally represented as fire emblazoned humans with wings. They are the beings closest to god, but they are also gods favoured agents, those sent to cleanse the creation with the fire of purification,to burn away false doctrine

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/92/dsc000500es.th.jpg

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/5766/dsc000518ra.th.jpg

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/4021/dsc000472ih.th.jpg

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/7338/dsc000487ma.th.jpg

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/5908/nxm154174yy.th.jpg

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/8745/nxm154206ec.th.jpg

http://img493.imageshack.us/img493/8408/xmes04050xu.th.jpg

http://img497.imageshack.us/img497/4407/xmes05149fv.th.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She is presented as an archangel of the Crown who burns away all false doctrine, lies and deceit, all that doesnt work, that which isnt needed:

http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/4532/xmenv2140p147wo.th.jpg

http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/3332/xmenv2140p157cf.th.jpg

http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/3941/newxmen128121dn.th.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9974/newxmen128134pj.th.jpg

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7913/newxmen128148kf.th.jpg

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/1681/newxmen128150hw.th.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9210/p097dl.th.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3166/p108yq.th.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/145/p144ry.th.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8058/p203tw.th.jpg

There ya go. Far better case. Need i post scans of a Dark Phoenix entity being formed out of the Source?

The Source itself as stated was just the energies of the Big Bang.

By real life principles the Big Bang represents the Crown, just like Phoenix represents the Crown in the comics and what does Phoenix manifest as?

Loads of parallels drawn and links suggested however its not stated so its not canon. I can accept that with Phoenix as at the end of the day it still has an integral role in Marvel creation regardless. With no conclusive evidence for LT people need to start doing the same.

If it makes you feel better GS, I accept your theory.

Originally posted by The Ion
If it makes you feel better GS, I accept your theory.

Long pigs arse to dirty for you ?

Originally posted by The Ion
If it makes you feel better GS, I accept your theory.

LOL. Well thank you. Even though my theory is heavily suggested, its not canon (well the God connection part the rest is cool lol) until its stated. Thats cool i can accept that.

Originally posted by Fishy 500
Long pigs arse to dirty for you ?

Youre really the last person around these parts who should be insulting about ass licking.

Anyway, there was no need for that.

Everything was cool up until then.

Lets keep this thread clean.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre really the last person around these parts who should be insulting about ass licking.

Anyway, there was no need for that.

Everything was cool up until then.

Lets keep this thread clean.

awwwwww .... he knows im joking .... god !!!!!! leave your sense of humour behind with youre transplanted liver ?

Originally posted by Fishy 500
Long pigs arse to dirty for you ?

Originally posted by Fishy 500
awwwwww .... he knows im joking .... god !!!!!! leave your sense of humour behind with youre transplanted liver ?


Youve been silent up till now. What are your thoughts on this tangent we've gone off on? Do u agree that theres nothing conclusive to say that LTS's a servant of the supreme being? While i know the Phoenix/God stuff isnt official you must agree that its been heavily suggested?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lt was not clearly above the IG. There was nothing on panel that confirmed that. Adam Warlock let out a power blast and LT cancelled out its effects on his person.

Yeah, it confirmed that the struggle could wreck the cosmos. It also showed that Warlock never had the power to harm LT, only everyone else at present. LT was always Warlock's superior while Warlock couldn't do a thing to LT or reverse anything LT did.



Warlock went easy on him. Even then Strange was pulling talismans after talismans to counter. Even when he canceled Nebula's wish, Nebula was inexperienced at using the IG; she even later was having a hard time with the deities and her inexperience was the reason given by the deities.

Your silly if you really think LT canceling Warlock's attack on the court with a snap of the finger is something in the same league as what Strange did against an inexperienced Nebula or Warlock. Eternity, Galactus, and the others were getting stomped and LT restored order - the deities were in perfect shape as they were when the trial began. Strange isn't stopping that Warlock when Eternity and Galactus couldn't.

Strange was taking orders from Warlock and hidding from Thanos w/ the IG. Helping Warlock gather a team to counter Thanos. Against Strange, Warlock could've erased Strange from existence any time he wanted - to think he couldn't would be silly.



He said that and then in the IG and IW showed LT being above the IG and could rule against it's use and even cancel it's powers. Eternity asked LT to intervene during IG. When Warlock had it, again Eternity asked no other than LT. Warlock's rampage affected everyone except LT who casually canceled and restored everyone back to the way they were. In IW, even with all the Cosmic Cubes he had, Magus opted to get LT to reverse his ruling of the IG. The IG has never been shown to affect LT or reverse anything LT has done.



Right, and then Warlock's rampage was stopped. And then his ruling prevented the Gems unison. And every other before and after showed LT as being above the IG.



Feats? Where he ruled against Warlock. And then LT reason with Warlock saying something along the lines of "power and responsibility." Hoggoth and Oshtur said the same line to Agamotto and reasoned with him over his fight with Galactus. That doesn't mean they both (each his equal) would have a problem at stopping Agamotto if they had to.



I'll also remind you of Jean going Jgg, Jgg after Magneto owned her. Where was the ressurection then? Life and rebirth?



And what was that? Did the Star Brand beat him? He prevented others from using it.



Yeah, and where did you get it from? Was it when Eternity asked LT to stop Thanos? When Eternity then asked him to stop Warlock? When LT was not affected by Warlock's assault on the court? Or when Warlock was shocked that LT restored order with a snap of the finger? Is it when LT canceled and prevented the IG from working together. Maybe it's when Magus had about six Cosmic Cubes and yet still needed LT to reverse his ruling so Magus could attain a working IG?

IG has never had an affect on LT - while LT has stopped and even prevented the IG from working.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youve been silent up till now. What are your thoughts on this tangent we've gone off on? Do u agree that theres nothing conclusive to say that LTS's a servant of the supreme being? While i know the Phoenix/God stuff isnt official you must agree that its been heavily suggested?

I agree ... those pics from the Infinity thingy say nothing about, him working for God or the T.O.A.A.

IMO the name TOAA was derived from the celestial who is also known as the TOAA.

Its probably one of those forum Chinese whispers scenario's, where someone mentions it, and then everyone eventually starts believing it.

E.G. Sentry beating Galactus !

In other words i think you're right !

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LOL. Well thank you. Even though my theory is heavily suggested, its not canon (well the God connection part the rest is cool lol) until its stated. Thats cool i can accept that.

i should read the comics were Warlock meats the LT to see exactly what he says.

Originally posted by Beyonder


Yeah, and where did you get it from? Was it when Eternity asked LT to stop Thanos? When Eternity then asked him to stop Warlock? When LT was not affected by Warlock's assault on the court? Or when Warlock was shocked that LT restored order with a snap of the finger? Is it when LT canceled and prevented the IG from working together. Maybe it's when Magus had about six Cosmic Cubes and yet still needed LT to reverse his ruling so Magus could attain a working IG?

IG has never had an affect on LT - while LT has stopped and even prevented the IG from working.

Again i dont need to reply to all of this because you have provided nothing conclusive at all or refernced no on panel evidence which conclusively says or shows that Lt serves the supreme being or that LT is above the IG himself.

At the end of the day, yes LT restored order but thats nothing conclusive because as aforementioned Dr Strange has countered the IG's attacks before. You cant just dismiss that feat as Adam going easy on Dr Strange because we know for a fact that the IG has the power to destroy Eternity and the other abstracts yet it didnt. Why? Because it was just a display of anger, he wasnt unleashing the full power of the IG or they would have died in the seconds it took for LT to shut off the power surge.

So LT restoring order with a snap of his fingers isnt conclusive evidence that hes more powerful than the IG. All that showed is that he can counter its power alot easier than Dr S with his artifacts but then thats to be expected.

If Adam intended to kill them he would have done. He to wasnt unleashing his full power in that scene so saying Adam was going easy on Dr S is a moot point.

Lt wasnt shown or stated to be more powerful. He stated that his master was more powerful, he then went on to say he didnt know how his power would fare and not wanting to find out he persuaded Adam to give up for the sake of the universe.

Sorry mate not good enough.

What does Jggg have to do with anything? Phoenix has multiple high end feats to choose from so thats a moot point.

The purpose of me highlighting those low showings of LT was to say that not only did LT say he didnt know how he'd do against the IG but his track record means it doesnt stand to reason that he'd be more powerful than the IG. Hes been thwarted by forces less powerful than it and hes done nothing to show conclusively that hes more powerful than it.


As for the StarBrand, it wasnt a multiversal power. Where did u get that from? It was a power that wasnt accounted for in the multiverse as stated in Quasar 57 i believe. (But obviously its apart of Marvels megaverse which is slightly different.) Either way he sealed it off and left. So its not a feat for him, it just shows that hes not supreme within Marvel creation.

Sorry B

Originally posted by Mider
i should read the comics were Warlock meats the LT to see exactly what he says.

Ive posted the scans already.

Originally posted by Fishy 500

IMO the name TOAA was derived from the celestial who is also known as the TOAA.

The truth behind TOAA is that LT serves a force or being higher than him. Readers/posters (from Comixtreme, Superherochat, Comicbookresource, and others) referred to this being who LT refered to as being above him as the One Above All. It wasn't derived from the Celestial one.

Furthmore, TOAA has always been referenced as being Marvel's top being because unlike all other so called supreme being, LT has always been guardian of the multiverse. Unlike Infinity, the Pre-Rec Beyonder, the Infinites, Genesis, LT has remained more or less at the top of the hierarchy. But LT's still a servant. TOAA is how posters acknowledge the being LT serves.

As for GOD, there is no GOD in Marvel. Both Thanos and Warlock have referred to themselves as GOD when they held the IG. In truth, MU does not have GOD.

People equate TOAA as MU's supreme being. They also view GOD as the supreme being. Hence, people put LT serves GOD and at other times they throughout TOAA.

People who don't know this often get confused and think that the Christianity, Catholocism, Kaballah GOD is MU's supreme being. Marvel acts as a neutral party. That's why you rarely see any one religion being at MU's top hierarchy.

Odin, Zeus, Vishnnu, and such gods from actual religions are below creations such as LT, Eternity, Galactus, and the Celestials.

It's not some invention by Killermovies.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats what im trying to say.

Based on those few vague lines and his role you really cant make a case for him being servant to the supreme being. Not when powers beyond the IG and Eternity have appeared since then and, not with the number of occassions his judgements have been overturned or shrugged off.

When has his judgement been overturned? His judgement was to prevent Korvac from the multivese. That was his judgement.



Nobody accepts LT is connected with GOD. Your confused. TOAA is what people refers to as LT's master. LT has consistently ruled and safeguarded the multiverse. Yet he serves one who's above him.

Poster refer to that being as TOAA. And as such, GOD is connected with TOAA because both are the supreme being of their multiverse. People equate supreme beings as being the same. It's like Presence and TOAA being the same thing. DC and Marvel's top beings.

Presence has also been refered to as GOD, but DC is also more religious (actual religion) based than Marvel. MU doesn't GOD or even angels as top beings like DC. Dude, your so confused.

Originally posted by Beyonder
The truth behind TOAA is that LT serves a force or being higher than him. Readers/posters (from Comixtreme, Superherochat, Comicbookresource, and others) referred to this being who LT refered to as being above him as the One Above All. It wasn't derived from the Celestial one.

Furthmore, TOAA has always been referenced as being Marvel's top being because unlike all other so called supreme being, LT has always been guardian of the multiverse. Unlike Infinity, the Pre-Rec Beyonder, the Infinites, Genesis, LT has remained more or less at the top of the hierarchy. But LT's still a servant. TOAA is how posters acknowledge the being LT serves.

As for GOD, there is no GOD in Marvel. Both Thanos and Warlock have referred to themselves as GOD when they held the IG. In truth, MU does not have GOD.

People equate TOAA as MU's supreme being. They also view GOD as the supreme being. Hence, people put LT serves GOD and at other times they throughout TOAA.

People who don't know this often get confused and think that the Christianity, Catholocism, Kaballah GOD is MU's supreme being. Marvel acts as a neutral party. That's why you rarely see any one religion being at MU's top hierarchy.

Odin, Zeus, Vishnnu, and such gods from actual religions are below creations such as LT, Eternity, Galactus, and the Celestials.

It's not some invention by Killermovies.

No offence but all of this isnt advancing your case. You have no evidence to say that LTs master is the supreme being. Nothing at all.

On top of that stop getting caught up on the word God. Its obvious that we mean the supreme being so just let it go. Whats the point in picking on it? It doesnt help you out.

Calling LT's master TOAA based on him saying his master is above Eternity and the IG is misleading because there are forces shown on panel with better feats. HOTU and Phoenix hands down have better on panel feats than those two. See what i mean?

Prove LT's master is the supreme being by on panel statements and you can preach this line of argument as if it was canon. Until then. You cannot. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Beyonder
When has his judgement been overturned? His judgement was to prevent Korvac from the multivese. That was his judgement.



Nobody accepts LT is connected with GOD. Your confused. TOAA is what people refers to as LT's master. LT has consistently ruled and safeguarded the multiverse. Yet he serves one who's above him.

Poster refer to that being as TOAA. And as such, GOD is connected with TOAA because both are the supreme being of their multiverse. People equate supreme beings as being the same. It's like Presence and TOAA being the same thing. DC and Marvel's top beings.

Presence has also been refered to as GOD, but DC is also more religious (actual religion) based than Marvel. MU doesn't GOD or even angels as top beings like DC. Dude, your so confused.

Im not confused at all Beyonder. Thats the funny thing. Accept the fact that i mean supreme being when i say God. Its quite obvious from the context. Stop trying to make a point out of it.

Youre saying LT's master is above all based on the fact that hes beyond the IG and Eternity. Quite a few beings are im afraid so thats misleading.

Apparently in Journey to mystery before the IG and its related series Demi said Odin referred to a supreme being called TOAA. Thats actually where the name came from.

LT never siad that was his master. Which as an established name for the supreme being you think he wouldve had.

Theres no concrete evidence connecting LT to the supreme being of Marvel. Thats a fact.

Being beyond the IG and Eternity does not make you the supreme being. Thats another fact.

You have no evidence to make your opinion conclusively canon. Final fact.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Again i dont need to reply to all of this because you have provided nothing conclusive at all or refernced no on panel evidence which conclusively says or shows that Lt serves the supreme being or that LT is above the IG himself.

At the end of the day, yes LT restored order but thats nothing conclusive because as aforementioned Dr Strange has countered the IG's attacks before. You cant just dismiss that feat as Adam going easy on Dr Strange because we know for a fact that the IG has the power to destroy Eternity and the other abstracts yet it didnt. Why? Because it was just a display of anger, he wasnt unleashing the full power of the IG or they would have died in the seconds it took for LT to shut off the power surge.

I can't dismissed that? Why don't you point to me where Strange was during the IG? When Thanos had it? Strange and Warlock use the element of suprise to get the IG from Nebula. As for Warlock, he was pulling attacks from each gem. Strange even needed Galactus' help to save him from Agamotto.

As for LT, he restored order after Warlock put Eternity on his knees with one blast and then stomped everyone from Chaos and Order to Eternity and Galactus. I guess you are silly if you think Warlock was attack Strange in the same sense he was at the deities. Strange couldn't do jack to Agamotto and fainted just because Galactus telepathically linked Strange to the events of IW.



Isn't conclusive? Eternity himself and a host of others couldn't. He even restored them back to their place. Show me where LT was even affected by the IG or the IG even reversed one of LT's attack?



Moot point? Again, where was this Strange that could counter the IG when Thanos were slapping the deities left and right? Where was he when Thanos or Nebula froze/transmutted the deities? Strange was venturing issue by issue to save a selected group of heroes Thanos beat.



Are you done? IG, Warlock #1, and even IW showed LT's powers over the IG. Never once did the IG do a thing to LT. And it was Warlock that finished the line about power. LT never said he didn't know. Maybe you can show me where the IG even affected LT in the least? Or where the IG had even reversed an edict of LT. There isn't one.



Like not being able to crack Magneto's shield?



And again, where did it show the IG having any affect on LT or even reversing anything LT did?



Who said he was supreme? The Star Brand was going to be used as to attain the multiverse. You wanna disagree. Fine. LT still sealed it. Where did it show that LT was in danger by it? And where are you getting this idea that LT's only judgement is destroying things?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not confused at all Beyonder. Thats the funny thing. Accept the fact that i mean supreme being when i say God. Its quite obvious from the context. Stop trying to make a point out of it.

Point out what? You bring Seraphims, the White Crown, and Kaballah to make your case and yet your saying your not equating Phoenix to GOD? Please stop lying through your tongue.



Who are above the IG again?



That's another TOAA. And that's what Demi thinks. Other than this board, do you even venture out to other messageboards G.S.? Odin has also fought an evil version of himself known as Infinity. But decades later it was said that Odin had tapped into a part of Infinity (the opposite of Eternity) and fought it. That TOAA is different from the TOAA we're discussing.



It's not. LT is at the top. What part of that don't you understand? It never outright states that the Presence was DC's top being either. Presence even deserted creation and has had trouble with Lucifer.



No, it just makes you far above the rest of the cosmic elite. Find me someone other than LT more powerful then the IG?



That LT is MU's top visible being? Show me another.

LT could not stop Korvac and for all we know he could have found a way to exit that universe he killed himself not the other way around that someone else killed him in the end LT still didnt take the IG he had to ask for it this wasnt like when Lucifer gave up the keys of hell and the preseance said give them up he didnt even ask just said give them up and it was done LT doudted his own power if he doudts his own power against an object that only controlls one universe how can he do against a being who has been shown taking out higher level dimensions?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No offence but all of this isnt advancing your case. You have no evidence to say that LTs master is the supreme being. Nothing at all.

On top of that stop getting caught up on the word God. Its obvious that we mean the supreme being so just let it go. Whats the point in picking on it? It doesnt help you out.

It's obvious? It's obvious your bringing in angels/seraphims, the White Crown, and Kaballah to prove Phoenix is an aspect of GOD. Then turning around and saying that TOAA is not GOD, asking for evidence of where it says LT serves GOD.

You've also referred to GOD as part of the MU. Why else would you equate LT as the angel Metatron and since PF represents the White Crown, PF>LT.



Hands down Thanos didn't know why he got the HOTU or who set it up. Even when he had supreme power, he regarded LT as being at the top. Phoenix was not shown or mentioned.

As for feats, what feats does PF have? None that can even compare. PF even needs host to deal with each universe. It's no different than Galactus, Eternity, Death who all have counterparts in each universe.

There's only one LT.



LT>IG. LT>PF. PF has done nothing to prove she's even on LT's level. Nor can you provide me with a list of people that could even prevent the IG's powers.

Heck, find me a being that has feats that surpass LT? Thanos with the HOTU? Thanos attaining the HOTU was for a purpose. He was meant for it. Hence he attained such power and LT was not able to stop him.

Originally posted by Mider
LT could not stop Korvac and for all we know he could have found a way to exit that universe he killed himself not the other way around that someone else killed him

LT closed it. And Korvac did what against LT or his ruling?

.

That's funny since LT was never threatened by the IG. And Oshtur and Hoggoth have asked/reasoned with Agamotto using the lines of "with great power..." like LT did. But would you say that both Oshtur and Hoggoth did not have the power to stop Agamotto when each of the two were his equal?

Again i dont need to answer this because youre bringing nothing new to the table.

Its just more opinion and why you think Lts the supreme beings servant and why hes more powerful than the IG when nothing conclusive was shown or stated.

With the Dr Strange thing. I think the confusion and disbelief from yourself must be coming from the fact that you havent seen the battle that took place between Dr Strange and Adam. If thats the case allow me to re-direct you to the Strange respect thread.

Gem for gem DS countered all of Adams attacks just like that. LT restored with a snap of his fingers. As aforementioned all that shows is hes more powerful than Strange because after LT did this he still went on to agree with Adam that he didnt know if his power was enough to stand up to the IG and Adam still believed that he was more powerful than LT because as he stated LT had yet to prove he was up to the task.

On top of that Adam as stated by LT due to the omniscience granted to him by the IG already knew what LT was thinking and what his juddement would be.

With all that mind LT wasnt conclusively more powerful than the IG. As stated by Adam he had yet to prove it on panel and even after restoring order Adam was still confident in his ability to withstand LT. Why? Because as aforementioned it wasnt his full power unleashed. If it was Galactus and the like would have been incinerated. Therefore again i say your point about Adam going easy on Strange in their 1 on 1 battle is moot. LT never countered a full powered attack from Adam.

Sorry B

And whats this about Jean and a magnetic shield. Youre missing the point Bey. It doesnt matter. I have high end feats of Phoenixes which outclass the IG's feats so thats irrelevant.

LT has done nothing beyond the Ig's feats and on top of that Korvac shrugged off Lt's judgement and LT gave up and fled:

http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/9027/page339dd.th.jpg

With that in mind the fact that he has such low feats but no high feats to counter them means that it doesnt stand to reason that hes beyond the IG. He hasnt shown in it, you have nothing conclusive.

Please understand that that scene with LT restoring order it is open to interpretation. If LT and Adam had an all out battle and then he shrugged off AWs attempts and then retrieved the IG, then you'd have your conclusive proof. Right now you have nothing but your interpretation of that scene and a few low showings from LT.

He is not conclusively servant of the supreme being

He is not conclusively above the IG. None of his other appearances support that in the slightest.

As for the Star Brand it was not going to be used to attain the multiverse. The wielder of the SB went to to the nexus of realities and from there sought to destroy the balance of power within the multiverse. The StarBrand wasnt a multiversal power im afraid that wasnt stated and when you consider that they had to go to the nexus of realities to wreck havoc across the multiverse, it wasnt shown.

Either way LT dealt with the StarBrand the same way he dealt with Korvac. He sealed it away and left.

You were the one who said LT was supreme in Marvel creation and you used that as the reason why his master was likely to be the supreme being. Youve said that a number of times in this thread so dont try and change it around now.

You have no evidence to back your claims. Just your unsupported opinion.

Not good enough.

Sorry Be.

oh LT you jobber Spectre would probably defeat all the cosmics would be kinda fun to watch.

Spectre would defeat everyone then have a climatic battle with LT and then be stopped MAYBE by TOAA but then again he might just indeed be stopped.

Originally posted by Mider
LT could not stop Korvac and for all we know he could have found a way to exit that universe he killed himself not the other way around that someone else killed him in the end LT still didnt take the IG he had to ask for it this wasnt like when Lucifer gave up the keys of hell and the preseance said give them up he didnt even ask just said give them up and it was done LT doudted his own power if he doudts his own power against an object that only controlls one universe how can he do against a being who has been shown taking out higher level dimensions?

He not only doubted his power against such an object but was later thoroughly owned by one of such, HOTU.

Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
He not only doubted his power against such an object but was later thoroughly owned by one of such, HOTU.

Agreed he only doubted how he would fare against the IG but at the same time he hasnt done anything on panel to show hes beyond the IG.

for some reason the LT has been hyped up in the bio i read of him in marveldirectory he was never said to be the most powerful but one of the most powerful entities that could make a sun go nova and had the power to kill an entire planet if need be were does this say that he is the most powerful of all the cosmics he has been shown to run away when there has been someone shown to maybe have enough power to take him how pathetic is that? how can he defeat the likes of Spectre who's powers have clearly been displayed to be in my words.......WAY THE HELL UP THERE. defeating fifth dimension imps not only one or two but the whole darn dimension and fighting the wizard shazam and taking out almost all magic in the DCU wow thats insane power killing gods MORE INSANE POWER and yes he has supposidly done so in the spectre annuals and if you all wish to know the time twisters which are cannon characters i would hope had the power to reverse or forward time supposidly being beyond even the judgement of the living tribunal in other words they might just snap there fingers and make the LT so younge that he would go to the time he was never born and thus be erased but ageing him to death might not work cause im not sure if he is immortal but yeah the reverse time thing for sure might help he has not shown to be beyond time has he? ive heard that Spectre is though.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

With the Dr Strange thing. I think the confusion and disbelief from yourself must be coming from the fact that you havent seen the battle that took place between Dr Strange and Adam. If thats the case allow me to re-direct you to the Strange respect thread.

That respect thread? No disrespect to Longpig, but it's a respect. You think that thread includes everything in the book? That respect thread said Strange beat Death and resurrected everyone. Problem being panels where it said Galactus resurrected himself and everyone else. Strange was actually the first to die and the others slowly ending up where he was.

And how funny that in that same thread, Strange was owned by Agamotto and saved by Galactus. Did you complete forget that? Also, the scan where Strange knocked Galactus down, it left out where Strange knew he couldn't win against Galactus and therefore gave in. Then Galactus showed Strange what was happening to Eternity and that was all it took to K.O. Strange. Just information about Eternity's frozen state put Strange down. Nova had to catch him.



All that shows is he's more powerful than Strange? You make that sound as if I had to throw all this evidence out so you can come to the conclusion that LT>Strange?

Strange got K.O.ed just because Galactus telepathically linked him with the events of IW and Eternity ending up catatonic. But I guess you think Strange is above Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, and Order.



Yes, and Warlock still couldn't harm LT, nor was the IG ever able to reverse any of LT attack.



Thing is Warlock was just beginning the attack. His attack was no different from Thanos'. But where was Strange when Thanos attacked? Where was Strange during the trial if you could counter Warlock? Strange is one of Eternity's champion. Where was he when Eternity was being attacked? He could've defended weak Eternity and Galactus?



Apology accepted.



Which ones again? Um, none.





No high feats? Who stopped Korvac again? Eternity? Sure as heck wasn't Phoenix.



- Eternity asked LT to stop Thanos
- Eternity asked LT to stop Warlock
- Warlock attacks court, LT stops it easily and restored ordered. Warlock is stunned.
- LT ruled against Warlock. LT shuts off the IG and allows Warlock to find new gem holders.
- Magus with the six Cosmic Cubes, still wanted the IG. Had to get LT for overturn his ruling.
- The IG has never ever affect LT.



That's funny since LT was in no way threatened by the IG.



And who stopped these beings? LT. Did these beings/power over turn what LT did? Nope. Heck in Korvac's case, LT was doing the job while the deities relied on LT.



Nobodies changing anything around. LT is still above everyone else. And the deities turn to LT, no one else.



That's funny cause even in his early appearances, LT has been relied upon by cosmic deities alike.

Sealing off Korvac and the Star Brand is a low end feat? Last time I checked, Phoenix couldn't even beat Arishem the Celestial and Jean gets killed by Magneto. Those early appearances take nothing away from him. If you want, Dark Phoenix was manipulated into a fantasy world by a 2nd rate mutant in her earlier appearances.

Furthermore, Dweller In Darkness was afraid LT might intervene in his plans. While observing LT in awe, it showed LT holding the brothers in his hand. Also refered to LT consulting his spectral hooded ally (Spectre) regarding the Brothers. Dweller was afraid of LT, not Phoenix. And Phoenix had to convince everyone not to be afraid just to beat Dweller in Darkness. And that squable was over one universe.

And GS, you yourself have refered to this event to dismiss the Brother's being the supreme being of Marvel and DC.

All of them together, most likely they would drain him quickly but would not be able to kill him. A powerless Spectre could not be killed (DOV 5/6). If he were to take them down individually. Those from Death and abv will survive..below dies.

Originally posted by Mider
for some reason the LT has been hyped up in the bio i read of him in marveldirectory he was never said to be the most powerful but one of the most powerful entities that could make a sun go nova and had the power to kill an entire planet if need be were does this say that he is the most powerful of all the cosmics he has been shown to run away when there has been someone shown to maybe have enough power to take him how pathetic is that? how can he defeat the likes of Spectre who's powers have clearly been displayed to be in my words.......WAY THE HELL UP THERE. defeating fifth dimension imps not only one or two but the whole darn dimension and fighting the wizard shazam and taking out almost all magic in the DCU wow thats insane power killing gods MORE INSANE POWER and yes he has supposidly done so in the spectre annuals and if you all wish to know the time twisters which are cannon characters i would hope had the power to reverse or forward time supposidly being beyond even the judgement of the living tribunal in other words they might just snap there fingers and make the LT so younge that he would go to the time he was never born and thus be erased but ageing him to death might not work cause im not sure if he is immortal but yeah the reverse time thing for sure might help he has not shown to be beyond time has he? ive heard that Spectre is though.

Shazam is skyfather level.
LT and Eternity held a meeting at the 16th dimension.
Spectre isn't above LT at all.

and why do you say that do you have any proof or are you going on by whats been said?

Originally posted by Beyonder
Shazam is skyfather level.
LT and Eternity held a meeting at the 16th dimension.
Spectre isn't above LT at all.

DC has less dimensions(at least according to Mr.mxyptl's, first issue, however you spell it), and Mr.Mxy took down a being from the highest dimension who'd destroyed all beings above the 5th, if IIRC, spectre took him down. The LT was owned by a being using the HOTU, from what I'm hearing it seems like the spectre hasn't been owned.

Originally posted by Mider
and why do you say that do you have any proof or are you going on by whats been said?

Yes. They held a meeting regarding Thanos w/ IG at the 16th dimension.

Shazam hasn't done anything that Odin couldn't.

And what proof do you have that Spectre would beat LT?

hmmm Spectre has killed gods, a being who has defeated the anti-monitor, lords of chaos and order that are above skyfathers 700 magicians at once the IG couldnt even hurt one magician which was Dr Strange and just because he is who he is doesnt mean that other DCU mages couldnt do other feats that are as good or even better then his as in black alice who has stolen the powers of other mages and is just a kid and zatanna also a very powerful mage and Dr Fate of course who is Strange's equal, Swampthing who has defeated the or battled the word all these beings couldnt defeat the anti-monitor and yet Spectre defeated a god that did so and your saying LT can stand up to this? Why do you defend the LT he has shown no such feats ive already told you how his feats have failed against the likes of Korvac you dont seem to believe me get the comic if you dont believe me read it for yourself and see how he was a coward and ran off.

Originally posted by Beyonder
That respect thread? No disrespect to Longpig, but it's a respect. You think that thread includes everything in the book? That respect thread said Strange beat Death and resurrected everyone. Problem being panels where it said Galactus resurrected himself and everyone else. Strange was actually the first to die and the others slowly ending up where he was.

And how funny that in that same thread, Strange was owned by Agamotto and saved by Galactus. Did you complete forget that? Also, the scan where Strange knocked Galactus down, it left out where Strange knew he couldn't win against Galactus and therefore gave in. Then Galactus showed Strange what was happening to Eternity and that was all it took to K.O. Strange. Just information about Eternity's frozen state put Strange down. Nova had to catch him.



All that shows is he's more powerful than Strange? You make that sound as if I had to throw all this evidence out so you can come to the conclusion that LT>Strange?

Strange got K.O.ed just because Galactus telepathically linked him with the events of IW and Eternity ending up catatonic. But I guess you think Strange is above Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, and Order.


So can you show me where in any of the above you've managed to counter my point about Strange. Sorry mate it just hasnt happened.

You made the assumption that LT was more powerful than the IG because he countered a power surge from Adam. Thats not good enough my friend. Why? Because

a) The IG made Adam considerably more powerful than all the abstract entities therefore if the blast was full power he would have destroyed them. The fact that all of them survived just fine before LT's restored order tells you that it wasnt a full power blast. With that in mind restoring order doesnt not equate you to being as powerful as the IG. It just showed that LT was more powerful than the abstracts, so he dealt with the blast better than they ever could have hoped to.

b) Dr Strange has countered Adam with the IG. (Im guessing you havent seen this scene yet because that is the only explanation i can think of for why you've gone into all of this irrelevant Strange battle record talk) Im not talking about in the IG series lets get that straight. It happened after Adam acquired the gauntlet and LP has scans of the entire battle which he has shown to the forum previously. Strange and Adam had a 1 on 1 fight. Every attack Adam threw at Strange, Strange managed to counter without difficulty. Adam went through each of his gems in an attempt to take him down and each attack was countered.

With those two points in mind you cant say LT's superior to the IG for countering an IG attack. If that was the case then Strange would be beyond the IG as well which he is NOT. He just countered the attack. LT countering the attack as aforementioned only proves what we already knew, that hes more powerful than Strange (because he countered with a snap of his fingers) and that hes more powerful than any of the abstracts (because he dealt with the IG attack alot better than they did)

If it wasnt for the fact that Strange has countered Adams attacks then while you under no circimstances could say LT was superior you could at least say he was on par with the IG. With the Strange incident in mind you cant even conclusively say that, plus LT has no feats in any of his appearances which put him beyond the IG. None.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Yes, and Warlock still couldn't harm LT, nor was the IG ever able to reverse any of LT attack.

Just like Warlock wasnt able to harm Strange in their one on one encounter because he countered. Lt countered. Doesnt mean LT is more powerful than the IG. Not in the slightest. He doesnt have feats to back that idea up. Such feats he needs in light of the fact that Strange has countered multiple assaults from Adam in a 1on 1 encounter. LT never attacked Adam. Lets not make stuff up now. He stopped Adams attack. He countered it. Big difference mate.



Originally posted by Beyonder
Thing is Warlock was just beginning the attack. His attack was no different from Thanos'. But where was Strange when Thanos attacked? Where was Strange during the trial if you could counter Warlock? Strange is one of Eternity's champion. Where was he when Eternity was being attacked? He could've defended weak Eternity and Galactus?

What do you mean where was Strange? Stranges non appearance at a meeting of the higher powers is self explanatory and doesnt change the fact that Strange when prepped managed to cunter Adams assaults from all 6 of the I Gems. Thats the crux of the matter. Strange not being there doesnt discredit his feat. You need to get the silly notion out of your head that im saying Stranges feat makes him more or as powerful as the IG. It doesnt. He was prepared and he countered any and all attacks sent his way by a determined Adam who had to go through all of his gems. You cant say LT is more powerful than the IG based on a countered attack. Thats poor and far from conclusive.







Originally posted by Beyonder
Which ones again? Um, none.

Well actually quite a few my friend. Phoenix has many feats beyond anything LT has been shown to do and beyond anything the IG has done on panel in any of its appearances. The IG by all accounts gives a user total control of the forces which make up the fabric of a universe. Ita a universal power. Jean as the White Crown Phoenix killed the 616 reality as an after effect of telekinetically amputating its future. She then telekinetically reconstructed the 616 reality in the palm of her hand and healed it. Conclusively beyond any feat the IG has ever done and far beyond LT's feats.

Phoenix has projected a tower into every reality of the multiverse, thereby creating an energy matrix which flowed flowed through the multiverse. Shows multiversal range. No breaches in space required, just applied her power throughout existence.

The M'kraan crystal is a multiversal reset switch. The barriers which contained this power had failed and the multiverse was about to be wiped out. Phoenix knitted back together this stasis field and re-energised it. She saved all that is.

As per current continuity the Phoenix Consciousness manifests into the void as the Big Bangs which make up each universe of the multiverse. As the Big Bang any and all energy thats contained in a universe is derived from Phoenix. Hence the line "The sum and substance of all that live" "I am all that is" "the stars are my children, nothing that lives is not touched by me"

Either way on panel Phoenix beats the IG conclusively and trumps LT.

Again sorry mate.





Originally posted by Beyonder
No high feats? Who stopped Korvac again? Eternity? Sure as heck wasn't Phoenix.

He never stopped Korvac. He attampted to stop Korvac and failed miserably. He then gave up and fled saying he can do no more and telling the abstract entities if they have means with which to leave that reality he suggest they do so. LOL. Thats your high end feat?!! LMAO

I think i'll post it again:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8060/page331wh.th.jpg

Wow people. Really. Wow.

Spectre in the Marvel Universe is would not be as powerful as he was DC because he doesn't have the Supreme One to jack his powers up like in DC which means he only Spectre average not Spectre with permission.

Originally posted by Katt
Wow people. Really. Wow.

KMC's got some intelligent people.

Join in!!

Beyonder unless youre gonna post some scans of it stating LT is beyond the IG or a scene where he conclusively shows a power display beyond those of the IG or Phoenix then dont bother. Its been said all b4.

Just more of your opinion which is unsupported on panel. As such typing it up again would be a waste of time.

Just lookin out 4 u.

The Living Tribunal was able to Stop Warlock with IG because he tells Warlock I answer to somebody who's powers dwarfs his power.He had the strength to stop Warlock by order of his Master.The Living Tribunal is Judge over the Muti-Universe of Marvel which mean nobody can stop him from doing what he has to not the Phoenix. The only power that I ever seen actually beat LT was HOTU and he might not wanted to interfere in the Natural Order of things who knows. So when I say everybody I also mean the Beyonder at anytime would not been a problem

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So can you show me where in any of the above you've managed to counter my point about Strange. Sorry mate it just hasnt happened.

You made the assumption that LT was more powerful than the IG because he countered a power surge from Adam. Thats not good enough my friend. Why? Because

What assumptions? Warlock was pulling one gem after another. And Strange pull specific spells to counter. He was on the defense the whole time. This was like when Strange battled Death; he was on the defense the whole time and both Warlock and Death were pulling out what amounted to be trickery. Your comparing that to LT snapping his finger and restoring order to the court? LT wasn't even trying.

The whole time Strange was finding a way to convinced Warlock. That assult by Warlock amounted to nothing but Thanos against the heroes. During that fight, Thanos was sending people back in time, displaying people through space, and warping reality. He did the whole thing to impress Death. Against the deities, he went all out on them.

You've proven nothing GS. Don't even try to compare Strange's counter against what LT did. The whole fight Strange tried to convince Warlock; hence, he didn't try that sh!t against Thanos (depowered IG) because Thanos wouldn't have given a crap about the future.



Oh please. Warlock pulled one gem attacks on Strange, while Strange had to pull out every talismans and spells to counter fight Warlock. Warlock's attack was no different from Thanos' fight against the heroes.



Warlock sent Strange into the future to convince Strange of what happens "if his will was not done." He even sent Strange to the most distant of space. Yeah, Warlock really got serious there. He then distorted reality against Strange. Yeah good move, since Strange has gone through attacks like that before. Even Warlock himself without the IG traveled through the realms of Order and Chaos.



And trying manipulate Strange using the Mind Gem? Lets see, Minddragon did the same and was owned by Strange. Death also manipulated Strange using illusions of the past. You call those attacks serious? Dormammu, Mephisto, Nightamre pull that stuff on Strange all the time. Even in his early days, Strange has fought off such an attack from Nightmare.

Strange got his butt whooped by Agamotto because he'd allow Galactus to use the Eye.
Strange was killed by Magus' Cosmic Cube - the same Cubes that Magus was not satisfied and therefore was attempting to get the IG working again.
Strange needed Galactus to pull himself together so he could ressurect Strange and the heralds.
Strange convinced Cyttorak to allow him and Nova to leave the Crimson Cosmos.

You think Strange could even compare to Eternity or Galactus? This is the same guy who called Galactus for help. During his fight with Shuma Gorath, he won only after beating and absorbing Shuma Gorath's lietenant to have enough power to challenge Gorath.

Dr Strange is powerful but compared to Galactus the only way he could even have a chance against Big G is getting aid from the Visanti. Not only that but In the The Warlock books Galactus and Dr Strange was on the same ship and it exploded into pieces and in seconds the pieces came together again and Dr Strange said I can't believe we survived that and Galactus said somebody has underestimated my power

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

What do you mean where was Strange? Stranges non appearance at a meeting of the higher powers is self explanatory and doesnt change the fact that Strange when prepped managed to cunter Adams assaults from all 6 of the I Gems. Thats the crux of the matter. Strange not being there doesnt discredit his feat. You need to get the silly notion out of your head that im saying Stranges feat makes him more or as powerful as the IG. It doesnt. He was prepared and he countered any and all attacks sent his way by a determined Adam who had to go through all of his gems. You cant say LT is more powerful than the IG based on a countered attack. Thats poor and far from conclusive.

Dude, you blab on as if Strange could even compare to Galactus much less LT. Strange's fight and counters we're even in the same league. Please stop b.s.ing.




Um, yeah well Eternity is 616. Warlock stomped Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, Order, etc. all at once. Thanos froze them all with a gesture. They were also turned to stone with a thought.



Yeah right, every event shows otherwise. LT is at the top.



That's funny because many beings say this and that about being the universe and everything within it. But when it comes down to it, LT is at the top and referred to by cosmics alike.



That's funny cause you haven't proven anything.



No it's not highend. It's a low end that amounted to Korvac losing and not being able to do anything about it. Furthermore, it still showed the deities asking LT for help.

Low end, Phoenix got owned by Magneto and couldn't even do a thing to Arishem.

Originally posted by Mider
hmmm Spectre has killed gods, a being who has defeated the anti-monitor, lords of chaos and order that are above skyfathers 700 magicians at once the IG couldnt even hurt one magician which was Dr Strange and just because he is who he is doesnt mean that other DCU mages couldnt do other feats that are as good or even better then his as in black alice who has stolen the powers of other mages and is just a kid and zatanna also a very powerful mage and Dr Fate of course who is Strange's equal, Swampthing who has defeated the or battled the word all these beings couldnt defeat the anti-monitor and yet Spectre defeated a god that did so and your saying LT can stand up to this? Why do you defend the LT he has shown no such feats ive already told you how his feats have failed against the likes of Korvac you dont seem to believe me get the comic if you dont believe me read it for yourself and see how he was a coward and ran off.

Killing Gods was what Desak and Demogorge did. Destroyer was meant to take down the Celestials (enchanted by 23 skyfathers) and it couldn't even take down one.

Funny how your comparing skyfathers, Lords of Order, and such against the IG. Warlock was doing parlor tricks on Strange that beings below Galactus can do.

Spectre didn't beat Anti-Monitor. DS' machine and Superman did.

The Word was never beaten by Swamp Thing mider. Tefe spoke almost the same sound as The Voice to try to banish him into nonexistence. He was stopped by Tefe but not destroyed. I would even say Lucifer and Michael and LT could have been beaten by Tefe. the Word has since been seen in Hal/Spectre comics, though it doesn't look the same like in Swamp Thing it could be Hal was perceiving The Word to look like that, he still had his red Robe, and he was sitting on a thrown.

Spectre did stop the Anti-Monitor, Superman didn't stop AM, he killed him when he was weak and dieing already. the reason DS got involved was because AM was going to threaten him after destroying Superman and Earth.

Originally posted by Mider
his as in black alice who has stolen the powers of other mages and is just a kid and zatanna also a very powerful mage and Dr Fate of course who is Strange's equal, Swampthing who has defeated the or battled the word all these beings couldnt defeat the anti-monitor and yet Spectre defeated a god that did so and your saying LT can stand up to this?

Your just rambling. Strange hid from Thanos and took orders from a non-IG Warlock. The IG stomped Eternity, Death, Galactus, Chaos, and Order all at once. Don't even compare mages against Eternity and Galactus. Warlock's assault on Strange was no more than one gem at a time, attacks that Thanos depowered IG did on the heroes.

Strange didn't even fight Odin during Blood and Thunder. Was owned in a gesture by Agamotto and needed Galactus to save his butt. He talked Cyttorak into letting him go.

Demogorge ate up most of the hell-lords from every pantheon with ease, yet it's Celestial level and below.



Failed? All the deities turned to LT. LT sealed Korvac off. Did Korvac escape? Korvac didn't beat LT.

Originally posted by Beyonder
What assumptions? Warlock was pulling one gem after another. And Strange pull specific spells to counter. He was on the defense the whole time. This was like when Strange battled Death; he was on the defense the whole time and both Warlock and Death were pulling out what amounted to be trickery. Your comparing that to LT snapping his finger and restoring order to the court? LT wasn't even trying.

The whole time Strange was finding a way to convinced Warlock. That assult by Warlock amounted to nothing but Thanos against the heroes. During that fight, Thanos was sending people back in time, displaying people through space, and warping reality. He did the whole thing to impress Death. Against the deities, he went all out on them.

You've proven nothing GS. Don't even try to compare Strange's counter against what LT did. The whole fight Strange tried to convince Warlock; hence, he didn't try that sh!t against Thanos (depowered IG) because Thanos wouldn't have given a crap about the future.



Oh please. Warlock pulled one gem attacks on Strange, while Strange had to pull out every talismans and spells to counter fight Warlock. Warlock's attack was no different from Thanos' fight against the heroes.



Warlock sent Strange into the future to convince Strange of what happens "if his will was not done." He even sent Strange to the most distant of space. Yeah, Warlock really got serious there. He then distorted reality against Strange. Yeah good move, since Strange has gone through attacks like that before. Even Warlock himself without the IG traveled through the realms of Order and Chaos.



And trying manipulate Strange using the Mind Gem? Lets see, Minddragon did the same and was owned by Strange. Death also manipulated Strange using illusions of the past. You call those attacks serious? Dormammu, Mephisto, Nightamre pull that stuff on Strange all the time. Even in his early days, Strange has fought off such an attack from Nightmare.

Strange got his butt whooped by Agamotto because he'd allow Galactus to use the Eye.
Strange was killed by Magus' Cosmic Cube - the same Cubes that Magus was not satisfied and therefore was attempting to get the IG working again.
Strange needed Galactus to pull himself together so he could ressurect Strange and the heralds.
Strange convinced Cyttorak to allow him and Nova to leave the Crimson Cosmos.

You think Strange could even compare to Eternity or Galactus? This is the same guy who called Galactus for help. During his fight with Shuma Gorath, he won only after beating and absorbing Shuma Gorath's lietenant to have enough power to challenge Gorath.

Beyonder. Your understanding is abominable. Just how old are you?

All of the above is largely irrelevant.

The point of bringing Strange into it in the first place is not to equate him on the hierarchy to LT, IG or any of the other cosmics, because we all know that isnt the case.

Strange was mentioned because he despite his relatively low standing in the rankings was able to counter the power of the IG. The fact that he was on the defence all the time is irrelevant. This isnt a Strange versus thread. Im not trying to infer anything about Strange other than the fact that he countered the IG. Dont you understand that?

The crux of the matter is that he countered an assault from the IG and LT countered an assault from the IG. Strange doing so doesnt change his position on the hierarchy it certainly doesnt equate him to the IG in power as it was just a counter. Same with LT. LT countered Adams assault. He did it with a snap of the fingers. He did it easier than Strange did, but thats to be expected because hes more powerful as everyone knows.

However all LT did was counter. He never matched Adam blast for blast, never fought him to a standstill and certainly never beat him. Therefore you have no evidence whatsoever to say LT's superior to the IG.

Picking at Stranges battle record is futile because youre missing the point. This isnt really about Strange. Its about the fact that LT only countered Adam. Thats all. You positively cannot say hes more powerful based on a counter.

Me highlighting the fact that Strange has countered Adam as well isnt an attempt to hype Strange up. Im just bringing attention to the fact that lower beings to have countered the power of the IG. As theyre lower you wouldnt expect them to counter as easily as LT did but at the end of the day on both occassions it was still just a counter.

As LT isnt the only one to do so it cant be seen as a feat only achievable by someone who is on par with or beyond the power of IG cos Strange isnt either and at the end of the day it was still only a counter.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Dude, you blab on as if Strange could even compare to Galactus much less LT. Strange's fight and counters we're even in the same league. Please stop b.s.ing.

And youre once again missing the point. Thats not what im doing at all. Strange isnt as powerful as LT so of course his counters arent going to be in the same league. But thats not the point. The point is that in both situations it was still just a counter. You cant read from a defensive manoeuvre that LT is more powerful than the IG. Thats not stated or shown anywhere in that title and nowhere else in the history of Marvel has LT performed a feat which supports your OPINION that he is more powerful than the IG.

Youre presenting your interpretation on the scene as fact. You cant do that Bey. Its a scene open to interpretation as you've seen on this thread therefore it is not conclusive proof. Dont treat it as such.

Beyond Infinity Watch you have no impressive power displays whatsoever. Not a thing.




Originally posted by Beyonder
Um, yeah well Eternity is 616. Warlock stomped Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, Order, etc. all at once. Thanos froze them all with a gesture. They were also turned to stone with a thought.

Sometimes i really do wonder Bey. Eternity is the embodiment of 616. That Mbody we see is a representation of the sentience of the universe not the universe in its totality. When attacked by the IG in the same title Eternity says "Were this not merely a visualisation of my totality the gauntlets effect would have been non-existent"

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5059/warlockinfinitywatch01076gn.th.jpg

The Mbody is not 616 in its totality. The things Warlock and Thanos did to the M-body (please note that they were all things done within reality as well) are laughable compared to accidentally killing the actual 616 universe and then casually reconstructing it in the palm of your hand atom by atom telekinetically. Phoenix dealt with the ACTUAL 616 universe, not its embodiment, its representation WITHIN reality. Thats a feat on another level. The IG or LT have yet to match.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6025/nxm154218qa.th.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9292/nxm154223yf.th.jpg

The IG makes you master of that little reality the White Crown Phoenix has in her hand right there, the one she has total control over down to the sub atomic and all from the comfort of the white hot room.



Originally posted by Beyonder
Yeah right, every event shows otherwise. LT is at the top.

Prove it. No opinion. Just show me scans where LT shows something more impressive than the IG or Phoenix. LTs top being not the top power/force. X-men Forever showed as a power one who wields the Phoenix can make themselves supreme in reality. Its all actually stated and its shown by Stranger and later confirmed by Eternity as the truth. LT has yet to beat the IG for feats.





Originally posted by Beyonder
That's funny because many beings say this and that about being the universe and everything within it. But when it comes down to it, LT is at the top and referred to by cosmics alike.

All that matters is current continuity im afraid. Latest Phoenix bio says each Phoenix manifestation is the life force of the universe the power from which the universe derives from. Thats the current state of affairs and thats what ive been telling you for over 7 months now. The bios just made it concrete. Referring to any other beings from early 90's comics is more futile now than ever. Sorry mate.


Originally posted by Beyonder
That's funny cause you haven't proven anything.

Incredibly ironic LOL. You have just your interpretation of a few scenes from Infinity Watch to go on. However your OPINION on the matter isnt supported anywhere else in comics. While his role is incredibly important he's never ever had an impressive power feat and there have been powers stated and even shown on panel to place you above him (i.e Phoenix and HOTU). Not my fault you read to much into his role.

When you have on panel evidence to back up your claims then you'll get somewhere. Until then its mere fantasy.




Originally posted by Beyonder
No it's not highend. It's a low end that amounted to Korvac losing and not being able to do anything about it. Furthermore, it still showed the deities asking LT for help.

LT's ultimate punishment as he stated didnt fase Korvac with less assembled power than the IG so how can you rate him so high if thats all hes been shown to be able to output? Your arguments just opinion theres little fact to it mate.

The deities ask him for help because his role is guardian of the multiverse. Again i say dont mix up role with power. When the entities needed him most he tried his best and his best failed them. He fled and suggested they do the same.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Low end, Phoenix got owned by Magneto and couldn't even do a thing to Arishem.

This is irrelevant because its a low end feat thats actually explained away on panel. Its not down to a lack of power her work as Phoenix just didnt necessitate her survival in 616 so she died and didnt resurrect herself until she was needed in the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline. All explained away on panel and on top of that she has high end feats which put LT's and the IGs to shame.

Lt has low level showings - He caused a supernova as his ultimate punishment (Damn Dark Phoenix burped one up as she snacked on a star LOL) with no explanation on panel at the time or ever since.

Its really not looking good my friend

"""Failed? All the deities turned to LT. LT sealed Korvac off. Did Korvac escape? Korvac didn't beat LT.""""

The crux of the matter is that LT dished out his "ultimate punishment" and Korvac shrugged it off. He siad there was nothing else he could do, there was nothing within his power to defeat Korvac who had less assembled power than the IG. The abstracts looked to LT for help there to but thats just because of his role as guardian of the multiverse. However he failed them. He told them he could do no more and he resorted to sealing off Korvac as he had no hope of defeating him. By his own words he didnt have the power to.

Unlike Phoenixes low showings this hasnt been explained away. Sorry mate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And youre once again missing the point. Thats not what im doing at all. Strange isnt as powerful as LT so of course his counters arent going to be in the same league. But thats not the point. The point is that in both situations it was still just a counter. You cant read from a defensive manoeuvre that LT is more powerful than the IG. Thats not stated or shown anywhere in that title and nowhere else in the history of Marvel has LT performed a feat which supports your OPINION that he is more powerful than the IG.

Youre presenting your interpretation on the scene as fact. You cant do that Bey. Its a scene open to interpretation as you've seen on this thread therefore it is not conclusive proof. Dont treat it as such.

Beyond Infinity Watch you have no impressive power displays whatsoever. Not a thing.






Sometimes i really do wonder Bey. Eternity is the embodiment of 616. That Mbody we see is a representation of the sentience of the universe not the universe in its totality. When attacked by the IG in the same title Eternity says "Were this not merely a visualisation of my totality the gauntlets effect would have been non-existent"

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5059/warlockinfinitywatch01076gn.th.jpg

The Mbody is not 616 in its totality. The things Warlock and Thanos did to the M-body (please note that they were all things done within reality as well) are laughable compared to accidentally killing the actual 616 universe and then casually reconstructing it in the palm of your hand atom by atom telekinetically. Phoenix dealt with the ACTUAL 616 universe, not its embodiment, its representation WITHIN reality. Thats a feat on another level. The IG or LT have yet to match.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6025/nxm154218qa.th.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9292/nxm154223yf.th.jpg

The IG makes you master of that little reality the White Crown Phoenix has in her hand right there, the one she has total control over down to the sub atomic and all from the comfort of the white hot room.





Prove it. No opinion. Just show me scans where LT shows something more impressive than the IG or Phoenix. LTs top being not the top power/force. X-men Forever showed as a power one who wields the Phoenix can make themselves supreme in reality. Its all actually stated and its shown by Stranger and later confirmed by Eternity as the truth. LT has yet to beat the IG for feats.







All that matters is current continuity im afraid. Latest Phoenix bio says each Phoenix manifestation is the life force of the universe the power from which the universe derives from. Thats the current state of affairs and thats what ive been telling you for over 7 months now. The bios just made it concrete. Referring to any other beings from early 90's comics is more futile now than ever. Sorry mate.




Incredibly ironic LOL. You have just your interpretation of a few scenes from Infinity Watch to go on. However your OPINION on the matter isnt supported anywhere else in comics. While his role is incredibly important he's never ever had an impressive power feat and there have been powers stated and even shown on panel to place you above him (i.e Phoenix and HOTU). Not my fault you read to much into his role.

When you have on panel evidence to back up your claims then you'll get somewhere. Until then its mere fantasy.






LT's ultimate punishment as he stated didnt fase Korvac with less assembled power than the IG so how can you rate him so high if thats all hes been shown to be able to output? Your arguments just opinion theres little fact to it mate.

The deities ask him for help because his role is guardian of the multiverse. Again i say dont mix up role with power. When the entities needed him most he tried his best and his best failed them. He fled and suggested they do the same.



This is irrelevant because its a low end feat thats actually explained away on panel. Its not down to a lack of power her work as Phoenix just didnt necessitate her survival in 616 so she died and didnt resurrect herself until she was needed in the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline. All explained away on panel and on top of that she has high end feats which put LT's and the IGs to shame.

Lt has low level showings - He caused a supernova as his ultimate punishment (Damn Dark Phoenix burped one up as she snacked on a star LOL) with no explanation on panel at the time or ever since.

Its really not looking good my friend

Of course the Spectre with permission beats Phoenix.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Of course the Spectre with permission beats Phoenix.

Marvel for all we know doesnt hav a supreme being in the Christian God vein however Phoenixes role in Marvel is the exact same as the Sources so no he would not. He would stalemate Phoenix. You trolling mutha****a LOL. I luv u Whirly

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Marvel for all we know doesnt hav a supreme being in the Christian God vein however Phoenixes role in Marvel is the exact same as the Sources so no he would not. He would stalemate Phoenix. You trolling mutha****a LOL. I luv u Whirly

Again all supposition GS. Your affection is noted and reciprocated.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Of course the Spectre with permission beats Phoenix.

Originally posted by leonidas


I know He's such a b*stard he really is

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder. Your understanding is abominable. Just how old are you?

All of the above is largely irrelevant.

The point of bringing Strange into it in the first place is not to equate him on the hierarchy to LT, IG or any of the other cosmics, because we all know that isnt the case.

Strange was mentioned because he despite his relatively low standing in the rankings was able to counter the power of the IG. The fact that he was on the defence all the time is irrelevant. This isnt a Strange versus thread. Im not trying to infer anything about Strange other than the fact that he countered the IG. Dont you understand that?

The crux of the matter is that he countered an assault from the IG and LT countered an assault from the IG. Strange doing so doesnt change his position on the hierarchy it certainly doesnt equate him to the IG in power as it was just a counter. Same with LT. LT countered Adams assault. He did it with a snap of the fingers. He did it easier than Strange did, but thats to be expected because hes more powerful as everyone knows.

However all LT did was counter. He never matched Adam blast for blast, never fought him to a standstill and certainly never beat him. Therefore you have no evidence whatsoever to say LT's superior to the IG.

Picking at Stranges battle record is futile because youre missing the point. This isnt really about Strange. Its about the fact that LT only countered Adam. Thats all. You positively cannot say hes more powerful based on a counter.

Me highlighting the fact that Strange has countered Adam as well isnt an attempt to hype Strange up. Im just bringing attention to the fact that lower beings to have countered the power of the IG. As theyre lower you wouldnt expect them to counter as easily as LT did but at the end of the day on both occassions it was still just a counter.

As LT isnt the only one to do so it cant be seen as a feat only achievable by someone who is on par with or beyond the power of IG cos Strange isnt either and at the end of the day it was still only a counter.


Better yet, you bring those scans of Strange V. Warlock and point to where any of those attacks were different from anything Death, Nightmare, or Thanos depowered IG pulled out? Illusions and trickery. One gem at a time. What Strange did wasn't even what LT did. You seem to think Strange to restore beings like Eternity and Galactus back the way they were before Warlock attacked.

It's also funny how Warlock used his Power Gem and yet Strange moved aside to dodge it. Wow, what an attack by Warlock and a counter by Strange. Real impressive on Warlock's part considering the IG wielder to exist anywhere in space...oh wait, that's right Warlock was using the Power Gem at the time. He couldn't use the Space Gem because he'd already use it - to send Strange, Pip, and Gamora really far away! :laughing:

Compare that to Thanos using a blast that took out two Celestials and dozens of planets. Or that blast to the one that had Eternity on his knees by Warlock during the trial.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Better yet, you bring those scans of Strange V. Warlock and point to where any of those attacks were different from anything Death, Nightmare, or Thanos depowered IG pulled out? Illusions and trickery. One gem at a time. What Strange did wasn't even what LT did. You seem to think Strange to restore beings like Eternity and Galactus back the way they were before Warlock attacked.

It's also funny how Warlock used his Power Gem and yet Strange moved aside to dodge it. Wow, what an attack by Warlock and a counter by Strange. Real impressive on Warlock's put considering the IG wielder to exist anywhere in space...oh wait, that's right Warlock was using the Power Gem at the time. He couldn't use the Space Gem because he'd already use it - to send Strange, Pip, and Gamora really far away! :laughing:

Irrelevant. When does a counter equate to being superior to something?

Thats a big jump my friend, if you were simply placing them on par then that would be easier to deal with albeit still unsupported.

None of your claims are backed by LT's other appearances. You have not a shred of evidence. Just your OPINION on what happened in that scene. Its a scene which is open to interpretation, nothing is conclusively stated therefore no facts can be conclusively drawn from it. Understand that.

LTs biggest display of power is creating a supernova with a single force blast a feat he stated to be his ultimate punishment and an action detailed in his bio.

Your whole argument is opinion. Even worse than that its unsupported opinion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Marvel for all we know doesnt hav a supreme being in the Christian God vein

Changing your opinion. Good, all that Kaballah, White Crown, Angel, and Seraphim barf was annoying everybody.



Proven by what? That she flew into the Source Wall?

1] Your using a crossover.
2] PC Darkseid mindraped her throughout the series.
3] If you want, let's play crossover: LT and Spectre teamed up to find GOD/Supreme Being - they only found the Brothers
4] LT and Spectre we responsible for the Brothers, observed by Dweller in Darkness. Phoenix beat Dweller convincing everyone not to be afraid.

LT b***h slaps The Spectre back to the Dc universe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Irrelevant. When does a counter equate to being superior to something?

Thats a big jump my friend, if you were simply placing them on par then that would be easier to deal with albeit still unsupported.

None of your claims are backed by LT's other appearances. You have not a shred of evidence. Just your OPINION on what happened in that scene. Its a scene which is open to interpretation, nothing is conclusively stated therefore no facts can be conclusively drawn from it. Understand that.

LTs biggest display of power is creating a supernova with a single force blast a feat he stated to be his ultimate punishment and an action detailed in his bio.

Your whole argument is opinion. Even worse than that its unsupported opinion.

Bring out those scans and point to where any of Warlock's attack were even devasting compared to Thanos with the IG or Warlock during the trial? Did you see Warlock trying to convince Eternity or Chaos?

You've got nothing on LT.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Changing your opinion. Good, all that Kaballah, White Crown, Angel, and Seraphim barf was annoying everybody.



Proven by what? That she flew into the Source Wall?

1] Your using a crossover.
2] PC Darkseid mindraped her throughout the series.
3] If you want, let's play crossover: LT and Spectre teamed up to find GOD/Supreme Being - they only found the Brothers
4] LT and Spectre we responsible for the Brothers, observed by Dweller in Darkness. Phoenix beat Dweller convincing everyone not to be afraid.

A classic post actually

Man...

I was thinking about getting involved in this thread, but I already see the writing on the wall.

You two should go into business together.

www.threadkillers.com/whirly&GS

Spectre loses, by the way. Out of his jurisdiction.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Spectre loses, by the way. Out of his jurisdiction.

If GS is right and Marvel has no God then the only Supreme being in comics has jurisdiction anywhere as do his minions.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Changing your opinion. Good, all that Kaballah, White Crown, Angel, and Seraphim barf was annoying everybody.

Nope ive admitted that my opinion (at least as far as the God connection) isnt canon as its not stated(You hear that B? Learn from me )



Originally posted by Beyonder
Proven by what? That she flew into the Source Wall?

The Source is the Big Bang, the energies of creation from which all life sprung from. Its canon that the same holds true for Phoenix. We clear buddy?

Originally posted by Beyonder
1] Your using a crossover.
2] PC Darkseid mindraped her throughout the series.
3] If you want, let's play crossover: LT and Spectre teamed up to find GOD/Supreme Being - they only found the Brothers
4] LT and Spectre we responsible for the Brothers, observed by Dweller in Darkness. Phoenix beat Dweller convincing everyone not to be afraid.

Who said i was using crossover in this instance? Incorrect buddy. Bit too quick on the trigger

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
If GS is right and Marvel has no God then the only Supreme being in comics has jurisdiction anywhere as do his minions.

I'm not letting you bait me, Whirly...

Originally posted by Beyonder
Bring out those scans and point to where any of Warlock's attack were even devasting compared to Thanos with the IG or Warlock during the trial? Did you see Warlock trying to convince Eternity or Chaos?

You've got nothing on LT.

No. You have nothing on LT which is why you diverted to the Phoenix thing

A counter does not equate to being superior. Nowhere is it stated or shown that LT is superior to or even equal to the IG in power.

No on panel evidence to back it. Theory goes down the drain

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
If GS is right and Marvel has no God then the only Supreme being in comics has jurisdiction anywhere as do his minions.

I never said it has no supreme being, i said it doesnt have one in the Christian vein as far as we know.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never said it has no supreme being, i said it doesnt have one in the Christian vein as far as we know.

The Crusader storyline in Thor indicates this might not be true.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The Crusader storyline in Thor indicates this might not be true.

If we were to go by indications then my Kabbalah stuff would hold true.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If we were to go by indications then my Kabbalah stuff would hold true.

No - lets not go to far

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
No - lets not go to far

i dont think Spectre needs permission he has been showing powers to show that its like as if he does indeed have permission

and why if i made it so that Spectre did have permission that wouldnt be much of a battle now would it LT's powers though do not get higher or lower his powers stay the same from what ive seen since he's been punked more then once Spectre has been punked as well but not more then once usually by the same person.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The Source is the Big Bang, the energies of creation from which all life sprung from. Its canon that the same holds true for Phoenix. We clear buddy?

The Source Wall has also been completely ignored by Lucifer, passing through it. The only thing that it can hold was PC Darkseid and Yuga Khan, even the Khan has escaped on his own and Metron has removed PC Darkseid from it. PC Darkseid also hurt the Wall and Cyborg Supes controlled a portion of it. Spectre, Michael, and Lucifer don't answer to the Source. Michael wanted to talk to the Presence, not the Source.



Then what are you using. What connection do you have of the Source and Phoenix being the same thing?

Big bangs? Is that it? Cause if that's the case, LT and Spectre are protectors of the DCU & MU. Spectre answers to Presence; LT answers to TOAA. Presence=TOAA - Nuff said.

Originally posted by Beyonder
The Source Wall has also been completely ignored by Lucifer, passing through it. The only thing that it can hold was PC Darkseid and Yuga Khan, even the Khan has escaped on his own and Metron has removed PC Darkseid from it. PC Darkseid also hurt the Wall and Cyborg Supes controlled a portion of it. Spectre, Michael, and Lucifer don't answer to the Source. Michael wanted to talk to the Presence, not the Source.

Beyonder, your major downfall is that you pay far too much attention to forum talk, hearsay basically and that im afraid has no place in debates. In fact it often leads to the presentation of invalid points. Kind of like now.

Youre talking as if Lucifer not talking to the Source equated to Lucifer being greater than it. He merely saw the Source in his travels. The Source exists at a point in reality from which all the events of creation can be witnessed. Lucifer needed to monitor events on Earth as part of his machinations so he flew to this point and saw the Source there but as stated in the issue he had no business with the Source so he didnt talk to it. They both just watched creation with Lucifer focusing on Earth.

Yet another unsupported assumption of yours my friend

As for the other stuff, youre confusing role with power once again. The Source in DC is an aspect of God, its role in Dc was to be the power source of creation, it flows through everything, it gives life to everything. That is its purpose. Not doing something outside of that role doesnt negate from the fact that is still an aspect of DC's supreme being. You need to understand that Bey.

The Presence is the father aspect as stated on panel so when Michael wants to go and see his father he goes to the Presence because that is its role. Spectre is a representation of Gods wrath on the world, it abides by Gods will so it serves The Word aspect. Spectre is the face of the Word in creation. Ok?

From all of your talk i can tell you dont read much Lucifer, Spectre and the like. You obviously are just going by what you've been told or what you've picked up on the forums. Not a very sensible thing to do.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Then what are you using. What connection do you have of the Source and Phoenix being the same thing?

A most horrible understanding of the presented B. If you look back and read again you'll see i said while Marvel doesnt have a Christian like Supreme being as per DC Phoenix and Source have the same roles in their respective multiverses. I never said that they were actually the same being. Come on now B. That was my point draw from that what you will. The parallels drawn and refernces made on panel while heavily suggestive did not conclusively confirm a God connection and i accept that. No being in Marvel has been conclusively linked to the supreme being so its cool.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Big bangs? Is that it? Cause if that's the case, LT and Spectre are protectors of the DCU & MU. Spectre answers to Presence; LT answers to TOAA. Presence=TOAA - Nuff said.

Nope yet another assumption. While its true that Spectre answers to Dc's supreme being, theres no evidence that LT does the same in Marvel, we've been through that already. No comic in Marvel history states that or conclusively shows that. LT answers to a being above the IG thats all. Not debatable. Anything else is speculation.

TOAA died when Thanos had become him during the end just to redo the universe if the presence wanted to redo the universe he could just call micheal and lucifer morningstar.

Originally posted by Mider
TOAA died when Thanos had become him during the end just to redo the universe if the presence wanted to redo the universe he could just call micheal and lucifer morningstar. Thats not true little mister, Thanos became TOAA the other TOAA didnt die, he never really existed in the first place he was no more than an untapped river of limitless power, And now that Thanos reset the universe' he is back, Michael and Lucifer morningstar govern over 1 universe TOAA governs over ALL universes, big difference

umm no lucifer can snap his fingers and create a universe and concepts of time and space as well with his brother michael they can both make a multiverse and there power is only dwarfed by the presance

Originally posted by Mider
umm no lucifer can snap his fingers and create a universe and concepts of time and space as well with his brother michael they can both make a multiverse and there power is only dwarfed by the presance but No-1 in any universe could touch thanos....

Theres nothing to conclusively support either of your theories actually. Thanos didnt actually know about the origins of the power we call HOTU. He himself only speculated on it being linked to the supreme being. As that wasnt actually stated on panel by other sources it has to be treated as just that. Speculation. All we know for a fact is that Thanos tapped into a power source which enabled him to humble the abstracts and LT. We have nothing definitive on its origins aside from Thanos' speculation. On top of that Marvel Universe: The End isnt canon anyway.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres nothing to conclusively support either of your theories actually. Thanos didnt actually know about the origins of the power we call HOTU. He himself only speculated on it being linked to the supreme being. As that wasnt actually stated on panel by other sources it has to be treated as just that. Speculation. All we know for a fact is that Thanos tapped into a power source which enabled him to humble the abstracts and LT. We have nothing definitive on its origins aside from Thanos' speculation. On top of that Marvel Universe: The End isnt canon anyway. why isnt it canon???well technically it never happened, but it is cannon because in thanos' most recent miniseries, him and AW mention it.