Darth Revan Vs Mace and Mundi

Dark Aristokrat

Originally posted by Pwned61
Now, I don't even remember the handmaiden specifically saying Revan did have the ability, she hinted that he showed signs of it, but never having met him, I doubt her's is the best info to go by. Besides, much like the shattpoints, it hardly will guarantee victory.

As far as the lightning is concerned, of course Mace was struggling with the lightning, this is Sidious we're talking about. In ROTS he's already one of the most powerful dark siders to show up in thousands and thousands of years. In fact, aside from Nihilus, he's probably the strongest to show up since Exar Kun. And Revan is a far cry from either. That being said, I don't view Revan's lightning to be that much of a threat to mace.

Well, I disagree with your stance on Sidious, but I appreciate the offer. Here...

First off, I suppose I should note that Revan's Battle Precognition should be a conditional for the battle. IF he has it, THEN this applies, etc etc. I think that's far more fair than trying to argue whether or not he has it, since you did bring up a good point. (It certainly would make sense why Malak didn't challenge Revan until he felt Revan was weaker, had forgotten things, and of course Malak had the entire Star Forge behind him, just my thoughts)

Now, if he DID have it, it'd be the equivalent of being two steps ahead of Mace at any time. Mace can be bested in combat, regardless of his Shatterpoint ability. And Vaapad simply allows one to channel their own inner darkness and fight more unpredictably and deadly- it isn't the end-all of saber styles. Revan's also a Sith Lord capable of dark side powers. His tactical ability is likely to be inherent in his fighting ability as is his apparent cold, calculating nature (As noted by his calm stance in the FMV, the way which he wages war, the accounts of his person, etc.)

Revan has defeated a few notable people in melee combat (i.e. confirmed kills). These include Mandalore, Yusanis the Echani duelling legend, Bandon, and Malak himself. Let's look at each individually:

- Mandalorians of the KOTOR era are notorious for being warriors. They practice martial arts of all types, and we see them vigorously sparring in KOTOR II on Dxun. The title of Mandalore is given to the strongest of them all, not just the best leader, so it would seem reasonable to assume that Mandalore was a dangerous opponent. Enough for a Sith Lord? Perhaps not. But another notch on his belt nonetheless.

- Yusanis was noted for being the foremost duellist on a planet full of martial people. In particular, the Echani are noted for their melee and their unarmed fighting styles, styles which persist into the PT era (Note that the mercenary in the Medstar series who bests a jedi in combat practiced echani). Revan pretty much slaughtered him where he stood. Obviously, this was an impressive feat. Being the foremost of his kind I would imagine Yusanis would be a deadly grandmaster (The type to KO others inside of one or two hits.) yet he was destroyed. This isn't even factoring in the possibility that Yusanis had some form of Force sensitivity or that he possesses the Echani variation of refined battle precog.

- Bandon is noted on the official KOTOR site as being undefeated, and second in command to Malak over all the dark jedi and sith in the New Sith Empire. Considering that the war included fighting various Republic troops, their allies, and the jedi, his record speaks well of him. Revan pwned him.

- Malak, a Sith Lord of considerable skill (Noted in his official bio as being a frontline soldier and a legendary combatant even in his own time) with the aid of a force channeling device (The Star Forge) and sapping the lifeforce from dead captured jedi, was unable to beat Revan.

Obviously, in melee combat Revan is no slouch. To say he is weaker than ROTS Sidious is a joke. Sidious was unable to gain a saber advantage over Mace or Yoda, and he barely won despite having the element of height and being able to throw pods... and all this despite the fact that he had a longer reach than his opponent and aggressive force powers!

Now, I'd like to avoid debating the uberness of Sidious, if only to save this thread from derailment, but Revan and Sidious are in the very least comparable in terms of raw power in the Force. Revan is noted by jedi masters, Kreia, peers, and opponents alike of being an incredible force user. Even if I were to say Revan is only as good as ROTS Sidious or slightly worse, he would still dominate Ki in an open arena and destroy Mace after a few minute fight.

Pwned61

First off, thank you for deciding to continue, I'd like to assure you that I'm not the kind of person who will argue for the movie characters regardless of the situation either.

As for your disscusion of the opponents Revan's beat:

Mandalore/Yusanis- We have no idea how either of these fights went. The game gives no indication of how much the force was involved. At the point when he fought Yusanis he's fallen and gained dark side powers. Abilities like lightning could easily have tipped the scales in his favor regardless of his melee skills. The same goes for mandalore. Now, I'm not going to say that this toatlly negates the feats, but it certainly diminishes their importance.

Bandon- fought with allies, therefore, we have no idea how much Revan contributed in the fight. Yes, I think that Revan is more than powerful enough to have beaten him on his own, but to say he 'pwned' him is baseless

Malak-you've got me here, it was an impressive feat for Revan. Still, without any offical record of the battle, It's impossible to tell how many times Revan had to defeat Malak. I believe you said something similar about the Exile's bout with Sion.

Again, there is no clear indication of Revan's melee skills aside from some quote in KOTOR 2, I think it was in a conversation with Disiple that he makes mention of it. Also, even if Revan does have Pre-cog, it, like the shatterpoints, do not bring instant victory. The Exile, before developing his pre-cog, defeated echani warriors, sans force.

I don't see why you use Sidious' losses as evidence against him, consideraring who they were against after all. Plus, all those quotes prove is that Revan was strong for his time, check Sidious' profile on SW.com, it says the same about him.

Dark Aristokrat

It's the difference of times. KOTOR era is not 40 years past the Sith Wars, during a time when the jedi rallied against the Sith Empire, and then later on rallied against the Mandalorians, and then again in the Jedi Civil War. Saber to saber combat was the rule of the day. This is a far cry from Sidious, who did not have anyone to challenge him before Mace and Yoda. Sidious had no Sith competition to fuel his powers and make him strong. Revan did. Hell, I imagine some of the most battle hardened Sith of all time come from the Hundred Years Darkness time era. War makes warriors, plain and simple.

Now, about the Mandalore and Yusanis battles, yes I agree the details are sketchy. However, I doubt they would be noted by everyone and their mother if REvan had simply zapped both of them or something. I imagine some swordplay was involved.

About Revan's companions, I dunno. The battle can take place in many locations, and a canon event would be nice. All the same, unless you assume that any random combination of REvan's allies could defeat Bandon, he obviously did a good deal of the work.

And lastly, defeating Malak even once in the final battle is tremendous as an undertaking, simply because Malak was buffed up and already uber before then. And Revan obviously had to dance like a jitterbug since Malak is taller than Dooku and has a great lightsaber of quite some length.

Lightsnake

Being a skilled duelist in his own right, Mace is also a brilliant fighter-he beat Kar Vastor when he was exhausted and injured...and Kar was a monster. Mace held his own with him in a hand to hand brawl for a bit. MAce also killed a reknowned despotic warrior named Khaleed by moving far too fast to be detected and running him through the heart before he even knew he was dead...Mace is also an accomplished Vaapad user, and that is something Revan could not and would not expect: It'd throw the darkness right back in his face.

However, seriously. It's unfair to inflate Revan's power so much to Sidious while downplaying him and not look who he was facing. Yoda, described as one of, if not the mightiest foe the Darkside had ever known, and a supremely dangerous man like Mace Windu. Who says Palpatine wanted to defeat Mace there either? The generally accepted theory now at SW.com seems to be he faked the lightning part completely....and there is a measure of evidence to that. the lightning he used at first was far weaker than when he was frying Luke or Mace at the end.

Though the idea that Mandalore the Ultimate was an uber warrior is false. At the end of The Sith War, when the Indomitable died, the clans were absolutely devastated. At that point, the Ultimate could have been strongest by default-and he found the helmet and was smart enough to bring the Mandos back together. However, how many people witnessed the Ultimate and Yusanis's deaths?

As for Revan...would battle precog really help him against an enemy with the same ability? Mace's 'Shatterpoint' talent could be just as dangerous. As for Sidious not having people to challenge him...that's statement begins to get frustraitng. Sidious spent long times on Korriban, learning from the spirits of the Ancient Sith in addition to Plageuis. He'd killed Jedi and learned to fight superbly...hell, he killed three of the Order's best warriors in seconds.

Dark Aristokrat

I'm well aware of Mace's accomplishments, and Ki's and Revan's. This battle is a matter of perception, since the evidence isn't conclusive enough to just make a straight, definate answer. I personally see Revan as being a bigger threat to Mace Windu than Sidious was... reason I brought him up is because Sidious was the only Force user to fight Mace onscreen. Kar Vastor was very powerful, but primitive and undisciplined. And he pretty much tossed Mace around like a ragdoll in unarmed combat, btw. Kar was potentially a bigger threat than anyone Mace had faced up to that point, but in the end was defeated because he was not a jedi or sith. Also, Mace fought Grievous in LOE under interesting circumstances, and would likely have won.

So while I see Mace as very good and dangerous, I don't see him as being so exceptionally good or dangerous that Revan can't contend with him. If all it took was a really good swordsman to defeat Revan, Kavarr would likely have done it long ago, or even Malak who was very good. Obviously he's a lot more dangerous than those two. I see no reason why to believe that Mace would be better adapted to fighting Revan. And I also think of Sidious had been in a different atmosphere he would have WTFpwned Mace using the Force and environment to his advantage.

And lastly, Sidious didn't have any real competition, and having pow-wows with ancient Sith spirits doesn't make you an uber saber god, which is the point I was trying to make. Sidious did not have to fight constantly and for his life every other day like say, a Sith Lord during the Hundred Years Darkness, or a Sith Lord in the Golden Age of the Sith Empire, or even a jedi in the devastating Jedi Civil War. Different circumstances. Would you argue that a modern day swordsmaster is better than a twelfth century swordsman who fought wars, duels, and battles all his adult life?

Lightsnake

Mace's fought Grievous a few times, Grievous never walked away unharmed. Now, when did Revan ever have time to learn all his skills? And like I said: the circumstances of the Sidious fight are completely up in the air, tos crewed up choreography or just plain bad scripting. I'm no Sidious fanboy, I like Dooku above him, possibly Vader, you can call me an official Obi-wan and Han Solo fanboy, but based on what I've seen/read of Sidious, I hold him in high esteem. And the Jedi in the Civil War hadn't seen wars in half a century. The Jedi in the Hundred Years darkness are the only good example there. Revan wasn't in the HYD, Revan wasn't in the Sith War, nor was Revan in the Hyperspace War. The era of Sadow was a very bad time for the Sith. They had no experience fighting Jedi, they were cowardly, beauracratic...Kressh even talks of being 'elected' to the post of Dark Lord and whines incessantly when they elect Sadow over him. THIS is pinnacle of the new Empire, the Dark Lord everyone thought'd replace the great Ragnos? I've seen nothing to indicate the ancients were anything special.

Sidious was strong enough to mask himself completely from the Jedi. Experience doesn't mean everything all the time and I could pull out quite a few historical examples. In an actual battle, anything could happen to stunt your fighting ability. Revan had several years of experience, that was it.

And learning everything a Sith holocron has to offer, absorbing its powers and learning from the supposedly uber ancient Sith over the course of decades has to count for quite a bit.

Pwned61

Yes, I understand that war does add a lot of emphasis on combat techniques, and because of that, Revan became the duelist he was. Even so, he doesn't develop the skill that some later masters have. Plus, by this logic, the Bane era sith would be stronger than any other.

As I said with Yusanis and mandalore, Revan's force abilities taint the results of those fights. It's impossible to tell whether he won those fights based on the merits of his melee skills or because of the force abilities. Yes I do think that some melee would take place, but any lack of skill on Revan's part could be made up for through his ability to use the force, something that would be pointless against another force user.

I agree Malak would be a worthy opponent, to defeat him once is impressive, but ultimately not a big deal. Mace defeated Kar Vastor, who's physic was compared to trees

Fishy

I'm not going to read all those posts right now have to hurry.

But lightsnake did we not already discuss the fight between Revan and Malak, Revan and Yussanis Revan and Mandalore, and did you not come to the same conclusion as I did? All those guys were great fighters and Revan beat them?

And revan storywise really was the most important person in any fight whether he faced them alone or not doesn't matter. As he is often called the only one powerful enough to do it, and storywise we know that, that is true.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Being a skilled duelist in his own right, Mace is also a brilliant fighter-he beat Kar Vastor when he was exhausted and injured...and Kar was a monster. Mace held his own with him in a hand to hand brawl for a bit. MAce also killed a reknowned despotic warrior named Khaleed by moving far too fast to be detected and running him through the heart before he even knew he was dead...Mace is also an accomplished Vaapad user, and that is something Revan could not and would not expect: It'd throw the darkness right back in his face.

Kar was untrained and, although powerful, many of Jedi could have defeated him.

Held is own in hand to hand combat? lmao. He got owned by Kar in that fist fight.

Vapaad ins't the ultimate saber style. Revan, who has Tulak Hord's holocron(the greatest saber duelist known), is a good bit better in lightsaber combat. Note that Revan isn't all dark either, meaning Vapaad won't be throwing darkness in his face.

He ran this guy threw the heart to fast to be seen? Pff. Revan can see things before they happen with precog. He doesn't move that fast.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
However, seriously. It's unfair to inflate Revan's power so much to Sidious while downplaying him and not look who he was facing. Yoda, described as one of, if not the mightiest foe the Darkside had ever known, and a supremely dangerous man like Mace Windu. Who says Palpatine wanted to defeat Mace there either? The generally accepted theory now at SW.com seems to be he faked the lightning part completely....and there is a measure of evidence to that. the lightning he used at first was far weaker than when he was frying Luke or Mace at the end.

WTF? Did you see what he was hitting Luke with? I could have done more damage to him with a taser. Luke being hit with more powerful lightning is crap. Also, if you look at what Sidious hit Mace with before he was knocked out the window, it is the same thickness and intensity as what he was hit him with after. No one has ever even come close to showing that Sidious faked the fight since Lucas even said that Mace overpowered Sidious. Of course, Sidious is far from the top, so that doesn't mean Mace would defeat Revan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Though the idea that Mandalore the Ultimate was an uber warrior is false. At the end of The Sith War, when the Indomitable died, the clans were absolutely devastated. At that point, the Ultimate could have been strongest by default-and he found the helmet and was smart enough to bring the Mandos back together. However, how many people witnessed the Ultimate and Yusanis's deaths?

A lot. 1. Every Mandalorian I talked to held Revan in high reguard because they saw how Revan killed their greatest. 2. Yusanis and Revan fought in the area just outside the Senate since Revan had just killed some senator.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As for Revan...would battle precog really help him against an enemy with the same ability? Mace's 'Shatterpoint' talent could be just as dangerous. As for Sidious not having people to challenge him...that's statement begins to get frustraitng. Sidious spent long times on Korriban, learning from the spirits of the Ancient Sith in addition to Plageuis. He'd killed Jedi and learned to fight superbly...hell, he killed three of the Order's best warriors in seconds.

Any proof that it's just as dangerous? Shatterpoint isn't a precog ability, you don't seem to understand what it really does. Lets see what it is exactly that you think it does. Please give a comprehensive definition for it.

No one was on Korriban to fight Sidious. Name two Jedi Plageuis killed.

Note that Sidous killed 3 of a weaker Order high level guys in only a few seconds, but Malak, who we know to be a good bit weaker then Revan, took out two from a stronger Order in less time. Clone troopers killed Mundi, Koon, and Aayla(guy who could have given the people Sidious killed a run for their money) in the same time.

Who are the other Jedi Sidios personally killed?

My Taekwondo instructors(all three of the main ones) during every sparring class always emphasize the importance of ring time. There are people who have been training for 5 years, but haven't spent much time in the ring who I fight(I have about 20 months of training) who I can defeat because I have been in the ring ten times more then them. It's the same situation here. No matter how much you study, it still won't help you as much as getting out there and doing the real thing.

Lightsnake

Mace didn't defeat Kar, that says a lot. and no, he wasn't 'owned', he put up a good fight but submitted. I want proof that Revan's precog allows him to see things before they happen and that he had Tulak Hord's holocron...

And yes, Luke was being fried powerfully at the end. The damn lightning was crackling through his eyes and mouth. And no, watching the scene now, both lightning intensities are completely different. Moreover, revan had ASSASSINATED the senator...assassinations don't involve cutting a man down in full view

Maul, in Shadow Hunter, reflects that he and Palpatine have killed Jedi before.

I'll post more later, gotta run

Pwned61

Originally posted by Fishy
I'm not going to read all those posts right now have to hurry.

But lightsnake did we not already discuss the fight between Revan and Malak, Revan and Yussanis Revan and Mandalore, and did you not come to the same conclusion as I did? All those guys were great fighters and Revan beat them?

And revan storywise really was the most important person in any fight whether he faced them alone or not doesn't matter. As he is often called the only one powerful enough to do it, and storywise we know that, that is true.

If you had taken the time to read the other posts, you'd see why you're going to need a little more evidence. Yussanis and Mandalore were both non-force users, powerful yes, and defeating them is impressive, but that doesn't change that we have no clue if Revan won those fights based on his skills, or his force abilities. Malak, I don't see this as much as a big deal, as Mace could take him as well.

And it's impossibel to assume what Revan's role in those fights were, the mere presence of an ally could be a great boon, so it negate's any fight. And while he is described as the most powerful, it's never said he could do it all on his own.

Fishy

Small post here but okay...

Mandelorians of that time killed Jedi in one on one Melee fights on planets.. The champions most warriors were unable to do it, but the champions still did. Their energy shields made sure the fights would be a Melee fight. the leader of the Mandelorians was more powerful then these guys, this is because he leads them and only the most powerful can lead.

He has also lead them for more then fourty years of constant war, sometimes against impossible odds. Like in one of Canderous his first battles were they fought against a fleet 10x their size. All they cared about was getting stronger and stronger, and they did. Mandalore could simply not be any less then brilliant as a fighter. Revan killed him fair and sqaure in an honest battle otherwise he would not be respected for it. Also Revan killed Mandalore at Malachor so there would have been a lot of witnesses.

Then Yussanis the greatest Echani general of the moment who has battle pre-cog that allows him to see what his opponent will do before the opponent does it, far more advanced then Jedi pre-cog which isn't bad either. Revan managed to take him down in a Melee fight. An hounarable fight according to the Handmaiden. Who would not consider choking him with the force honourable.

Those fights I was talking about, none of them were one on one... or Three on one for that matter. Bandon had help for instance. However Bandon was more powerful then anybody in their party except for Revan. Even Bastila who is the second most powerful storywise could not match Bandon even two and a half years of training later... Meaning very simply that Bandon could have only been killed by Revan.

the Droids in the Star Forge were able to kill even the most poreful of the order. Bastila does not have that level and would clearly fall to the droids, seeing as she is the second most powerful the others would as well. Guns won't work either, this is clear becuase of their shields, so Revan is again the only one that could have done it. Now keep in mind the droids work in teams of two. Of course its possible that Revan could have killed one and the other two killed the other droid, but that doens't matter without Revan they would be dead.

The Terentak Revan faced he faced alone, force powers wouldn't be of any use and he couldn't have used grenades storywise because they would destroy the building. So again storywise Revan would have had to have killed the Terentak in Sadow his tumb using a lightsaber. Even one of those beasts could destroy powerful Jedi Knights that fought during the time of Exar Kun.

Got to go now.

Pwned61

This is to Darth_Glentract,

What do we know about Tulak hord other than that he was the best of his time, which was a good 4,000 years before the OT era anyhow. And since when does Revan have his holocron? I remember picking up a couple in Korriban in KOTOR, but both could be given to the head-master for prestige, so unless you're about to bust out a legititment source that says otherwise, we can't assume he has it. Also, as I've said, defeating Mandalore really wasn't all that big a deal.

Fishy

Pwned61

Originally posted by Fishy
Small post here but okay...

Mandelorians of that time killed Jedi in one on one Melee fights on planets.. The champions most warriors were unable to do it, but the champions still did. Their energy shields made sure the fights would be a Melee fight. the leader of the Mandelorians was more powerful then these guys, this is because he leads them and only the most powerful can lead.

He has also lead them for more then fourty years of constant war, sometimes against impossible odds. Like in one of Canderous his first battles were they fought against a fleet 10x their size. All they cared about was getting stronger and stronger, and they did. Mandalore could simply not be any less then brilliant as a fighter. Revan killed him fair and sqaure in an honest battle otherwise he would not be respected for it. Also Revan killed Mandalore at Malachor so there would have been a lot of witnesses.

Then Yussanis the greatest Echani general of the moment who has battle pre-cog that allows him to see what his opponent will do before the opponent does it, far more advanced then Jedi pre-cog which isn't bad either. Revan managed to take him down in a Melee fight. An hounarable fight according to the Handmaiden. Who would not consider choking him with the force honourable.

Those fights I was talking about, none of them were one on one... or Three on one for that matter. Bandon had help for instance. However Bandon was more powerful then anybody in their party except for Revan. Even Bastila who is the second most powerful storywise could not match Bandon even two and a half years of training later... Meaning very simply that Bandon could have only been killed by Revan.

the Droids in the Star Forge were able to kill even the most poreful of the order. Bastila does not have that level and would clearly fall to the droids, seeing as she is the second most powerful the others would as well. Guns won't work either, this is clear becuase of their shields, so Revan is again the only one that could have done it. Now keep in mind the droids work in teams of two. Of course its possible that Revan could have killed one and the other two killed the other droid, but that doens't matter without Revan they would be dead.

The Terentak Revan faced he faced alone, force powers wouldn't be of any use and he couldn't have used grenades storywise because they would destroy the building. So again storywise Revan would have had to have killed the Terentak in Sadow his tumb using a lightsaber. Even one of those beasts could destroy powerful Jedi Knights that fought during the time of Exar Kun.

Got to go now.

Now, show me proof that the fight's against Mandalore and Yussanis was all fair and square. The problem is, aside from some assuptions, you can't. Even the handmaidens quote is pointless, as Revan may have only used the force to speed himself up, thus tilting the fight in his favor.

Also, you again are making huge assuptions about Revan's role in those fights, you have zero proof that he won those battles in the way that you describe. Like the Terentak battles, I used grenades and mines, and nothing happend, so you point is, well, pointless.

Pwned61

Originally posted by Fishy
Kotor II confirms it, Revan has the holocron and Ajunta Pall his blade.

Thank you fishy, I remember the convo about the sword, but not the holocron, still, I'll take your word on it.

Dark Aristokrat

Mace's fought Grievous a few times, Grievous never walked away unharmed. Now, when did Revan ever have time to learn all his skills?

Uh, the training he had under multiple masters in the jedi order. His combat experience in the Mandalorian Wars. His three years spent away. The couple of years he was leading the Sith during the Jedi Civil War. His actions during the war on behalf of the jedi. That right there is a LOT of experience for someone his age. And considering he is a prodigy and held in respect by all who know of him I think it's foolish to dismiss him quite as easily as you do.

And like I said: the circumstances of the Sidious fight are completely up in the air, tos crewed up choreography or just plain bad scripting. I'm no Sidious fanboy, I like Dooku above him, possibly Vader, you can call me an official Obi-wan and Han Solo fanboy, but based on what I've seen/read of Sidious, I hold him in high esteem.

This might surprise you, but I like Sidious too. And I have a realistic grasp of his powers. I've gone over his fights -many- times, as you can see I've been here nearly a year. And in that time I've debated just about every topic here. The point here is that Mace < Revan. Mace's biggest danger was Sidious, whom he floored with little effort. Unless you have conclusive evidence to the contrary, that's what we have to work with.

And the Jedi in the Civil War hadn't seen wars in half a century.

This is incorrect. The Jedi Council and Republic waged war on the Sith Empire after Sadow fled. It fell ten whole years later. Shortly after were the Mandalorian Wars, and the Jedi Civil Wars right after that. This is easily six years of combat experience right there, twice the length of the Clone Wars, and the latter half dealing more with jedi versus sith than perhaps the Schism. The Jedi Order was pushed to the brink of destruction.

The Jedi in the Hundred Years darkness are the only good example there. Revan wasn't in the HYD, Revan wasn't in the Sith War, nor was Revan in the Hyperspace War.

The point remains... Revan lived in times when one's life was decided by the swiftness of another's blade, period. Sidious did not live in mortal fear of his life nor did he fight on many battlegrounds or face off against as many powerful opponents. And again, this is about Mace.

The era of Sadow was a very bad time for the Sith. They had no experience fighting Jedi, they were cowardly, beauracratic...Kressh even talks of being 'elected' to the post of Dark Lord and whines incessantly when they elect Sadow over him. THIS is pinnacle of the new Empire, the Dark Lord everyone thought'd replace the great Ragnos? I've seen nothing to indicate the ancients were anything special.

I'm ignoring this. I already know your stance on the ancient sith and I completely disagree.

Sidious was strong enough to mask himself completely from the Jedi.

So cloak = power? Dooku could do the same, Lightsnake. He held conferences with Sidious on Coruscant and hid himself from Obi-Wan and Anakin in LOE. Hell, Asajj Ventress hid from Obi-Wan in the same room in TCD. This isn't equivalent to power, unless you want to admit that Revan controlled the Star Forge that had a tendency to destroy weak force users, thus Revan can pwn all.

Experience doesn't mean everything all the time and I could pull out quite a few historical examples. In an actual battle, anything could happen to stunt your fighting ability. Revan had several years of experience, that was it.

Experience means a LOT. You obviously know nothing of battle if you say such things.

And learning everything a Sith holocron has to offer, absorbing its powers and learning from the supposedly uber ancient Sith over the course of decades has to count for quite a bit.

Reading a book doesn't mean you know kung fu.

And btw, didn't you say Malak was about equal to Dooku? If Revan can smoke a powered up Malak, why can't he just destroy Mace? Are not Mace and Dooku equals? Actually, I'd argue that Dooku is better than Mace.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Pwned61
This is to Darth_Glentract,

What do we know about Tulak hord other than that he was the best of his time, which was a good 4,000 years before the OT era anyhow. And since when does Revan have his holocron? I remember picking up a couple in Korriban in KOTOR, but both could be given to the head-master for prestige, so unless you're about to bust out a legititment source that says otherwise, we can't assume he has it. Also, as I've said, defeating Mandalore really wasn't all that big a deal.

It's something that is extremly valuable, since Tulak was stated as the greatest Sith duelist and Ancient Siht duelist were said to make the people who came after them look like children playing with toys. Even if Revan gave it back, when he took out the academy, he would have taken it back.

No one has even come close to proving that defeating Mandalore wasn't a big deal because it was infact, just that, a big deal. The Mandalorians thought it was a huge deal. Huge. Big. Awsome. It was a big deal.

Mace didn't defeat Kar, that says a lot. and no, he wasn't 'owned', he put up a good fight but submitted. I want proof that Revan's precog allows him to see things before they happen and that he had Tulak Hord's holocron...

Yes, he was owned. Go read it again, Kar ripped him apart.

Proof that precog lets people see things before they happen? Go play KOTOR again, it says so. That's why it's called precog .

Revan isn't the kind of person who would leave something like Tulak's holocron behind. It's just not in his character.

And yes, Luke was being fried powerfully at the end. The damn lightning was crackling through his eyes and mouth. And no, watching the scene now, both lightning intensities are completely different. Moreover, revan had ASSASSINATED the senator...assassinations don't involve cutting a man down in full view

He strode right in and killed the man. If no one knew about it, how would Yusanis have known to go fight him?

Crackling threw his eyes and mouth, but from the way he was moving and stuff, a taser, small, hand-held polic device, could have hurt him just as much.

Now you're just BS'ing. The lightning looks exactly the same in both views.

Maul, in Shadow Hunter, reflects that he and Palpatine have killed Jedi before.

Pwned61

Glentract, you've still yet to show how the holocron would be such a big deal. Kreai's quote doesn't mean anything simply because she was basing the whole 'children with toys' off of the jedi of that era, none of which were Mace's match anyhow. Also, while Fishy did say it was confirmed, I'd still like some quote that says that Revan has it.

And again, Pre-cog does not mean instant victory. The Exile, without having developed his pre-cog, defeated echani trained warriors without the use of the force, at least until he takes on all of them at once.

And when I say that beating mandalore wasn't a big deal, I mean that simply for that sake of Revan's combat skills. Yes, militarily and politically it was huge, but it doesn't elevate Revan any. The same goes for Yussanis.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Pwned61
Glentract, you've still yet to show how the holocron would be such a big deal. Kreai's quote doesn't mean anything simply because she was basing the whole 'children with toys' off of the jedi of that era, none of which were Mace's match anyhow. Also, while Fishy did say it was confirmed, I'd still like some quote that says that Revan has it.

Let me spell it out for you as simply as possible. Ancient Sith were better then KOTOR Jedi. KOTOR Jedi were better then PT Jedi. That means Ancient Sith were better PT Jedi. Revan has the teaching's of the people who are better then PT Jedi. Do you get it? Revan is better PT Jedi.

Originally posted by Pwned61
And again, Pre-cog does not mean instant victory. The Exile, without having developed his pre-cog, defeated echani trained warriors without the use of the force, at least until he takes on all of them at once.

Doesn't mean instant victory, but makes him a lot better.

Just because he wasn't using actual forec powers doesn't mean he wasn't using the force to enhance his body.

Originally posted by Pwned61
And when I say that beating mandalore wasn't a big deal, I mean that simply for that sake of Revan's combat skills. Yes, militarily and politically it was huge, but it doesn't elevate Revan any. The same goes for Yussanis.

How? If defeating someone doesn't make that person more impressive, what has Mace ever done? The logic you are tying to use sucks. It makes no sense and simply does not work.

Darth_Glentract

pb

Looks like I missed this in one of my former post. When did he say that? When did he specify the circumstances of the battle? When did he say that it was just Palpatine and not Palpatine ordering Maul to kill someone or that Palpatine didn't higher bounty hunters?=

Pwned61

Firstly, that is a huge, and stupid, generalization. As a whole, the KOTOR Jedi are no better than the PT one's. And even if that were true, it would be based solely on the average Jedi, and Mace is far, far from an average Jedi. I mean, there has been literaly thousands of years for the Jedi to refine their techniques by the time we reach the PT era, and yes, while a number of Jedi have chosen to forgo combat in favor for more practical lessons, the rest have remained strong and have continued to practice the martial aspect of the Jedi.

Yes, the pre-cog does help, so does the shatterpoints, which is why I say for the most part, they pretty much cancel each other.

The Exile wasn't using the force to enhance his body simply because the game requires you to actually use the move before you get the bonus, and upon use, you lose.

And lastly, you need to learn how to read. I'm saying that Defeating Mandalore and Yusaniss arn't worth brining up, as they prove nothing towards Revan's combat skill. We know that he beat them, but we have no idea how. Revan might have simply used lightning till Mandalore crumbled.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Pwned61
Firstly, that is a huge, and stupid, generalization. As a whole, the KOTOR Jedi are no better than the PT one's. And even if that were true, it would be based solely on the average Jedi, and Mace is far, far from an average Jedi. I mean, there has been literaly thousands of years for the Jedi to refine their techniques by the time we reach the PT era, and yes, while a number of Jedi have chosen to forgo combat in favor for more practical lessons, the rest have remained strong and have continued to practice the martial aspect of the Jedi.

Revan is THE best of a better time of Jedi. These Jedi fought in a lot more wars and fought real opponents to the death in lightsaber combat. The best person of a time when everyone was general stronger vs. someone who is in the top four, but not the best, of people of a lesser time. The person from the greater time will win.

The Jedi Order got weaker over time. This is fact. They were devastated at the battle of Ruusan, losing almost every single Jedi alive(there were still several hundred or so). They lost the Chu'uthor, they lost the archives on Dantooine, they lost so much knowledge and they lost their fighting focus. Jedi in PT times were trained to be diplomats, which is a Jedi's true goal, to not fight. The PT Jedi were more Jedi-like, but they would lost in a fight to other, more militaristic Jedi.

The PT Jedi have no ring time. They don't fight with real people. Even Yoda had never fought a Sith before he fought Dooku in ep2.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Yes, the pre-cog does help, so does the shatterpoints, which is why I say for the most part, they pretty much cancel each other.

This statement is unfounded crap. How are they going to cancel eachother out? That's like saying, "I have an orange, and you have an apple, so we are equal." That makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by Pwned61
The Exile wasn't using the force to enhance his body simply because the game requires you to actually use the move before you get the bonus, and upon use, you lose.

This statement is also crap. Gameplay isn't canon. Jedi don't press the heal button and suddenly go from almost dead to half health. They don't do power attack, power attack, critical attack. They don't do anything like that. They are constanly increasing their bodies through the force. They constantly empowering their bodies. Don't try to argue gameplay as canon, it will only make you look more retarded.

Originally posted by Pwned61
And lastly, you need to learn how to read. I'm saying that Defeating Mandalore and Yusaniss arn't worth brining up, as they prove nothing towards Revan's combat skill. We know that he beat them, but we have no idea how. Revan might have simply used lightning till Mandalore crumbled.

If Revan is powerful enough to kill Mandalore with just lightning, that speaks measures for his force powers. If he hadn't defeated them in actual combat, the Mandalorians would have given a rats ass about the fight. They did, so Revan defeated them honorably. The fight matters a lot.

Pwned61

First off, the Jedi did lose a lot of knowledge after the battle of Ruusan, but that still gave the Jedi a thousand years to re-learn it, and expand upon it. It's not like once a discovery has been made, it can't be made again. And I agree, that as a whole the Jedi of earlier, more chaotic ages may have been stronger. This however, does not mean anything. Mace and Revan's abilities are not tied to the strength of their era. Also, can you specifically tell me what knowledge was lost that would be so devastating to the development of the Jedi.

Secondly, The shatterpoints and pre-cog both offer a substantial advantage to both parties, both are passive abilities, neither one is really stronger than the other, so, I'm saying bringing either up is a waste of time as it doesn't overcome the other.
(P.S no one has proved Revan has it either, unless there's a quote beyond the Handmaiden that I've missed.)

Thirdly, the conditions of fights with the handmaiden sisters early on dictated that the Exile must win without the aid of the force. Using the force to augment one's abilities is an active ability that the force user much intentionally use. Yoda is the perfect example of this, when he's not using the force to augment his reflex's, he's paramount to a cripple.

Lastly, defeating Mandalore marked the end of their campaign, of course they're going to remember it. And just for the record, none of the mandalorians that the player meets makes a big deal out of it. Not even Canderous, who simply was surprised that they actually lost. Besides, defeating Mandalore isn't a big deal simply because it's a feat that Mace could have easily have achieved as well, so it proves nothing.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Pwned61
First off, the Jedi did lose a lot of knowledge after the battle of Ruusan, but that still gave the Jedi a thousand years to re-learn it, and expand upon it. It's not like once a discovery has been made, it can't be made again. And I agree, that as a whole the Jedi of earlier, more chaotic ages may have been stronger. This however, does not mean anything. Mace and Revan's abilities are not tied to the strength of their era. Also, can you specifically tell me what knowledge was lost that would be so devastating to the development of the Jedi.

The actual techniques? No, I can't, because it isn't written. The Jedi lost an entire library just four hundred years before PT times. What makes you think they could relearn 21,000 years of teachings in less then 1000 years? To think such is downright stupid and it gets even worse if you count what they lost on the Chu'uthor.

Also note that Mace wasn't leagues above everyone else like Revan was. There was at least 1 Jedi and 1 Sith who could defeat him. Revan pwned the third strongest Sith, defeated the second strongest person in the galaxy(asfter himself) twice in a row even when his enemy had the power of the Star Forge behind him, is a lot stronger the the most powerful two Jedi since his worshiper pwned the three most capable Jedi alive. His lacky, the Exile, who is weaker then him, took out most of the other capable Sith around such as Sion, Traya, Atris, and Nihilus(are storyline fights). Mace has nothing over him.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Secondly, The shatterpoints and pre-cog both offer a substantial advantage to both parties, both are passive abilities, neither one is really stronger than the other, so, I'm saying bringing either up is a waste of time as it doesn't overcome the other.
(P.S no one has proved Revan has it either, unless there's a quote beyond the Handmaiden that I've missed.)

Are you saying that the Handmaiden was lying? If you are, you better prove up and do so fast because of anyone alive, she would know, seeing as he killed her father.

What evidence do you have that neither one is stronger the the other? Any at all? No? I didn't think so.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Thirdly, the conditions of fights with the handmaiden sisters early on dictated that the Exile must win without the aid of the force. Using the force to augment one's abilities is an active ability that the force user much intentionally use. Yoda is the perfect example of this, when he's not using the force to augment his reflex's, he's paramount to a cripple.

He has to have been using the force because he can't help but use the force. He already has his powers back and is fully emerged in it now. Yoda doesn't constantly use it when he is walking, but while fighting, the force automatically alerts him of coming attacks and where to move and stuff. He doesn't have control over it, neither did the Exile. The Exile just couldn't use any active powers, but passive ones were fine.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Lastly, defeating Mandalore marked the end of their campaign, of course they're going to remember it. And just for the record, none of the mandalorians that the player meets makes a big deal out of it. Not even Canderous, who simply was surprised that they actually lost. Besides, defeating Mandalore isn't a big deal simply because it's a feat that Mace could have easily have achieved as well, so it proves nothing.

Prove that Mace could have done the same thing or else acknowledge that you are just shouting unfounded BS.

On Rakata Prime Canderous did make a big deal about it. He was talking about how Revan defeated the best of them and that he was insulted that he felt that he needed to ask if he would continue to follow him. On Dxun, Canderous talked with Traya about why Revan left him behind and we heard about how it was something that haunted him even to that day, even though Canderous has no reason to respect him other then the fact that he pwned them. That's servitude that only goes to people with power, something Mace has never demonstrated.

Lightsnake

Glentract: Maul says he and Palpatine defeated Jedi in battle and both had grown bored. Maul wanted a real test like Plo Koon or Mace Windu....and when do we find out Revan had a holocron? Dark or light side Revan?

Now, Ianus:
Like any Jedi during the Clone Wars-or, unlike them, including the Stark Hyperspace war, the Yinchorri war, etc...Revan had zero experience until the Mando Wars. I don't dismiss Revan easily, he's my fourth favorite Sith....I just get annoyed of the hero worship.

I don't call what Mace did 'little effort'. He was struggling in that fight. Also: Palpatine had them all off guard....why go for the weakers first and not the real threat? And I'm going to ask, Ianus: Have you ever read Golden age of the Sith or the Sith War? the Sith are not impressive there whatsoever. I've nothing but content for the lot of them but Ragnos and maybe some of his predecessors.

And Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and Ventress learned from Dooku....if Palpatine, described by Dooku as being so strong as to stand next to Yoda-next to him, mind you-and not be felt. Dooku and Ventress had to learn that skill from somewhere.

And...I didn't say Malak and Dooku were equals, I'd put Dooku above Malak actually. Who says Revan 'smoked' Malak? Who knows how hard the fight was?

And in The Sith War, Exar Kun shatters a Sith Holocron....the power crushes the Jedi assembled there, giving them the knowledge and skills of the old Sith. Palpatine absorbedthe energy from a Holocron...and he learned from the Ancients. Those are pretty damn good teachers, when you throw Ragnos, Tulak Hord, The guy in the red armor, the rest of Ragnos's predecessors...

Pwned61

The problem is that it's highly unlikely that the info stored in any one academy or library, was unique to it. So losing one, while it would set them back, would hardly effect them in the way you make it seem. And I'm confused by your second point. Are you saying that because Mace wasn't the strongest of his time, he can't take the strongest of another?

I'm not saying that the handmaiden is lying, I'm saying that she doesn't prove anything. She never says that Revan has battle pre-cog, she mentions that based on his actions as a taction, he showed such signs, which doesn't prove anything.

No, I don't have proof one is stronger than the other, and I'm pretty sure that you don't either. So, this is pointless, which is why I said that they should be disregarded.

I do agree with you as far as the exile goes, no active, only passive, and using the force to jump 10ft in the air and move twice your normal speed, is an active power. I wasn't arguing the presence of a jedi's sixth sense, only the idea that he was using force augmentation.

First off, are you going to claim that Mace couldn't handle Mandalore? As strong as he may have been, he's still lacks the force, and mace was considered to be the best duelist by some. Have you been reading my posts, or do you just ignore everything, I've said at least three times now why talking about mandalore is pointless.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Glentract: Maul says he and Palpatine defeated Jedi in battle and both had grown bored. Maul wanted a real test like Plo Koon or Mace Windu....and when do we find out Revan had a holocron? Dark or light side Revan?

KOTOR 2 said that Revan had both Ajunta's Sword and Tulak's Holocron. He has them, get over it.

Page number for the part where Maul says that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, Ianus:
Like any Jedi during the Clone Wars-or, unlike them, including the Stark Hyperspace war, the Yinchorri war, etc...Revan had zero experience until the Mando Wars. I don't dismiss Revan easily, he's my fourth favorite Sith....I just get annoyed of the hero worship.

That's over double the experince of the Jedi in the Clone Wars. You miss the main point though. Jedi in that time were warriors and trained to be warriors since just 40 years earlier there had been a ton of damage done by darksiders. The PT Jedi had grown weak because they had not had anyone to challenge their power in a thousand years.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't call what Mace did 'little effort'. He was struggling in that fight. Also: Palpatine had them all off guard....why go for the weakers first and not the real threat? And I'm going to ask, Ianus: Have you ever read Golden age of the Sith or the Sith War? the Sith are not impressive there whatsoever. I've nothing but content for the lot of them but Ragnos and maybe some of his predecessors.

This is a downright dumb statement. Those guys were creating false armies through the force. They were destroying stars with thier bare hands. They were instakilling Masters who had been training for decades. Not impressive? Hardly.

Let me quote Janus on this, "The point remains... Revan lived in times when one's life was decided by the swiftness of another's blade, period. Sidious did not live in mortal fear of his life nor did he fight on many battlegrounds or face off against as many powerful opponents. And again, this is about Mace."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and Ventress learned from Dooku....if Palpatine, described by Dooku as being so strong as to stand next to Yoda-next to him, mind you-and not be felt. Dooku and Ventress had to learn that skill from somewhere.

I don't understand this statement. Moving on...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And...I didn't say Malak and Dooku were equals, I'd put Dooku above Malak actually. Who says Revan 'smoked' Malak? Who knows how hard the fight was?

Have you played KOTOR? I will spell it out for you.

Malak had all his regular powers, plus enough Jedi to regenerate himself back to full strength at least once, plus the protection from all of Revan's force attacks by the Star Forge, although he could still attack Revan vs.

Revan after having fought threw a planet full of Sith, Rakata, Rancors, and Mandalorians, then gone on to fight through hundreds of droids and Sith troopers and apprentices and Knights without rest.

Revan winning at all shows that he solidy would pwn Malak in a fair fight.

What makes you think that Dooku is better then Malak? I want actual reasons here, no assumptions. Actually, I change my mind. This thread is getting to cluttered with side arguments, I'll make a seperate thread for that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And in The Sith War, Exar Kun shatters a Sith Holocron....the power crushes the Jedi assembled there, giving them the knowledge and skills of the old Sith. Palpatine absorbedthe energy from a Holocron...and he learned from the Ancients. Those are pretty damn good teachers, when you throw Ragnos, Tulak Hord, The guy in the red armor, the rest of Ragnos's predecessors...

How does crushing them give them the knowledge of the Old Sith(did you mean to say Ancient, or did you really mean the Ancient Sith?)?

When did Palpatine ever learn from the Ancients or have any notable holocrons from then as of when he fought Mace?

You've also backed youself into a corner. You can either accept that Mace is very powerful and truly did defeat Sidious and Sidious isn't very strong in ROTS, or you can accepts that Mace lost and would lose to Revan even with Mundi's help.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Pwned61
The problem is that it's highly unlikely that the info stored in any one academy or library, was unique to it. So losing one, while it would set them back, would hardly effect them in the way you make it seem. And I'm confused by your second point. Are you saying that because Mace wasn't the strongest of his time, he can't take the strongest of another?

I was saying that because he wasn't the strongest of a weaker time, he probably will lose to someone who is far and away the strongest of a more powerful time.

Atris called the items stored on Dantooine irreplacable. That means there weren't an copies anywhere. Also, if the library on the Chu'uthor wasn't uniqe, why would the Jedi have fought the Nightsisters for it?(Keep in mind that this isn't a real war or anything against people like the Sith and that it wouldn't effect PT Jedi anyway because everyone from that time except Yoda and Bodo Baas was dead). If they could have gone somewhere else and ran off a few copies of the info they would have because it is not the Jedi way to fight for something that they can just get more of. Infact, even uniqe items they only fight for if it will help innocents. Fighting for something they have copies for doesn't do that. Fighting for unique knowledge does.

Originally posted by Pwned61
I'm not saying that the handmaiden is lying, I'm saying that she doesn't prove anything. She never says that Revan has battle pre-cog, she mentions that based on his actions as a taction, he showed such signs, which doesn't prove anything.

Erm, she says that he mastered to a level never before seen. I think you need to replay the game.

Originally posted by Pwned61
No, I don't have proof one is stronger than the other, and I'm pretty sure that you don't either. So, this is pointless, which is why I said that they should be disregarded.

No they shouldn't. Just because you don't know something for sure doesn't mean that there is no reason not to speculate on it and to try and figure it out.

Originally posted by Pwned61
I do agree with you as far as the exile goes, no active, only passive, and using the force to jump 10ft in the air and move twice your normal speed, is an active power. I wasn't arguing the presence of a jedi's sixth sense, only the idea that he was using force augmentation.

His sixth sense is battle precog. Also remember that he had the same advantage that the Sisters had because the Handmaiden said he was using it and he didn't even know it. So, the Exile had both Echani precog(which is the same as what the Sisters had, nuliflying their advantage) plus his Jedi precog, meaning that he was effectively beating up a bunch of women. The sign of a truly mighty man? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Pwned61
First off, are you going to claim that Mace couldn't handle Mandalore? As strong as he may have been, he's still lacks the force, and mace was considered to be the best duelist by some. Have you been reading my posts, or do you just ignore everything, I've said at least three times now why talking about mandalore is pointless.

I'm not ignoring it, you are just wrong. It is not pointless for reasons I have said but you appear to ignore. As such, we are at an impass.

Are you going to claim that Mace can take Mandalore without proof? Plenty of non-force users have killed Jedi before. Just because someone lacks the force doesn't mean they can defeat a Jedi. Jango, a Mandalorian from weaker times almost defeated Obi-wan. He also gunned down a Council Member Jedi. Are you telling me that someone who has guns that are at least as strong as Jango's and has extensive skill in lightsaber combat and has more likely then not killed dozens of Jedi will lose to Mace?

Lightsnake

1. Dark Side or Light Side Revan? Since Revan is light side, he wouldn't be taught by or use dark side things, now would he? Dark siders CAN'T use lightside items, Light siders can't use dark side items. And I'll find Shadow Hunter later

2. Yeah, right, before the CLone Wars there wer.e..the Yinchorri Wars. Stark Hyperspace, Volffe Karkko, Nightsister rebellions and the Gate of Infinity, battles with Sith Lords who they didn't know were Sith, toppling dictators, military coups....busy little bees the CLone Wars jedi were.
Would you consider The Sith war Jedi weak, Glentract? It'd been a thousand years since THEY faced any threat

3. Name a single time they destroyed a star with their bare hands, created Sith illusions without meditaiton spheres that amplified their power with force sensitive crystals and instakilled a master.

4. Proof Revan killed anyone on Rakta or the Star Forge, now. Gameplay, Gameplay. And why do I think Dooku was comparable to Malak? He was the first and foremost Makashi master, extremely skilled in the Dark side and force, a brilliant fighter, comparable to Yoda, respected by the Mandalorians, was able to break Durge into submission...

5. Because the energies released in the Holocrons carry part of the souls of the ones who made it. And he had Darth Andeddu's-who was an ancient-among others he found on Korriban...and he was on Korriban often in his youth, before and after he killed Plageuis and according to the Ancients in EE who said it'd been ten years since he'd been there....that's....2 years prior to ROTJ

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Dark Side or Light Side Revan? Since Revan is light side, he wouldn't be taught by or use dark side things, now would he? Dark siders CAN'T use lightside items, Light siders can't use dark side items. And I'll find Shadow Hunter later

A lightsaber form is not Darkside or lightside. Either can know it. Also, Luke uses plenty of Darkside techniques, yet he is lightside. The same is true for Revan.

Also, how did Palpatine use any of the Jedi stuff he got if he couldn't use the lightside stuff? Looks like you've worked youself into another corner.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Yeah, right, before the CLone Wars there wer.e..the Yinchorri Wars. Stark Hyperspace, Volffe Karkko, Nightsister rebellions and the Gate of Infinity, battles with Sith Lords who they didn't know were Sith, toppling dictators, military coups....busy little bees the CLone Wars jedi were.
Would you consider The Sith war Jedi weak, Glentract? It'd been a thousand years since THEY faced any threat

They faced the Nightsister, the Krath, the Naddist, the numerous threats of the new territory the Republic they were helping expand, ect. That is far MORE then anything the PT Jedi had.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Name a single time they destroyed a star with their bare hands, created Sith illusions without meditaiton spheres that amplified their power with force sensitive crystals and instakilled a master.

They aren't going to be fighting naked. Why can't you get it through your head? They are going to be onboard their ships, wearing their gauntlets, and in their meditation spheres against any enemy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Proof Revan killed anyone on Rakta or the Star Forge, now. Gameplay, Gameplay. And why do I think Dooku was comparable to Malak? He was the first and foremost Makashi master, extremely skilled in the Dark side and force, a brilliant fighter, comparable to Yoda, respected by the Mandalorians, was able to break Durge into submission...

Comparible to Yoda? That alone proves nothing and Malak is arguably comparible to Yoda.
Extremely skilled in the Dark Side of the Force? Malak was too.
A Brilliant Fighter? Malak was too.
A Makashi Master? Malak was a Master of his form too AND he used a great lightsaber which was noted as requiring great skill to use.
Respected by the Mandalorians? Malak was too. He was the second most important guy in the war that crushed them.
He defeated a bounty hunter? Means nothing.

Your reasons suck and are outdone by Malak.

Proof that Revan didn't kill everyone? He HAD to fight several Sith on Rakata and because he is light he had to wipe out the evil Rakata and their Rancors. The story won't advace if you don't. Revan HAD to defeat Bastila. Revan HAD to defeat the three Sith Masters on the SF before fighting Malak or else you can't advance. Revan HAD to fight the droids on the Star Forge in the room just before fighting Malak because you can't advance until you do. He HAD to do all of those things for the story to advance. Let me repeat, Revan HAD to do all of those things for the story to advance. Don't try to argue with me on this, you don't stand a chance of making any real points or making yourself look less foolish.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Because the energies released in the Holocrons carry part of the souls of the ones who made it. And he had Darth Andeddu's-who was an ancient-among others he found on Korriban...and he was on Korriban often in his youth, before and after he killed Plageuis and according to the Ancients in EE who said it'd been ten years since he'd been there....that's....2 years prior to ROTJ

No, Andeddu was not an Ancient. He has the name Darth, which means he was after Bane. Revan, Malak, Traya, Sion, Bandon, and Nihilus are the only exceptions to this and even they aren't Ancient Sith.

Even 12 years prior to ROTJ isn't ROTS. You really need to take a break or something. You aren't making any true points and are only wasting your time.

Darth_Glentract

BTW, the New Essential Guide to Chronology states that Revan defeated Mandalore in hand to hand combat.

Darth_Glentract

Yes, this is a triple post, I know. But, I remembered what really got Revan put higher then people like OT Vader back in the good o'll days of the forum.

The following is by Darth_Frobo, one of the old forum members who doesn't come around anymore because of the noobs. Keep in mind that this is not my personal stance, I don't hold Revan quite as highly, but it is mostly true.

Revan knew the most about the both jedi and sith then anyone ever. He plundered the tombs of all the powerful sith lords and soaked up every piece of knowledge there was to know, as well as learning all there was to know about the jedi, hell he learned how to fight from tulak hord marka ragnos and naga sadow, Revan pretty much knew every single combat trick the ancient jedi and sith ahd to offer.

2. He invented/learned thousands of ways to kill jedi and sith. As I said before he learned everything there was to know but not only that he created ways. Revan literally killed or turned every single jedi/sith that ever opposed him, hell he doesn't need to beat luke with a lightsaber (which he could) he could probably turn him to the darkside, it wouldn't be that hard Revan had done it thousands of times before, he'd just kill those luke cared for and play with his mind at every chance he got, Revan quite literally either knew or invented every single method the known to either defeat or turn a jedi.

3.Battle precognition. that's right revan could see the futur, but far more than almost any jedi. Revan was literally able to see the final outcome of entire wars even thoughs that lasted for years. Revan would know where luke's every saber stroke would land and be able to counter with a lethal blow almost every time.

4.Experience. Not hard to figure out Revan won every war he ever fought in almost single handedly he destroyed the mandalorians at the peak of their power and they were no pushovers I mean jango fett who was far from the best mandalorian killed 12 jedi barehanded, and jango fett pretty much effortlessly anhilated them. He then brought the republic to it's knees anhilating their entire army under the command of jedi and generals far superior to thos of a couple thousand years later. But that's not all he then destroyed the sith empire which by the way had infinite ressources troops and countless sith which he cut through like butter, as well as a sith lord whos power surpassed almost every single sith that followed. all that with like a quarter of the knowledge which he then regained and used to control an entire flipping sun that's right not just a star a sun (I know a star is a sun but it's much larger and i mean MUCH) to kill almost every jedi and then he went and took on the sith empire pretty much singlehandedly till the exile came along.

4. Ability. Revan had powers that after he died,(assuming he did as a true sith never dies SUPPOSEDLY) were never seen again, deathfield,kill,force storm,destroy droid just to name a few no sith lord following revan could ever us lightning on more then one target let alone kill someone,choke yes but just kill no. Revan also had mastered every single form of lightsaber combat he had a form like no other as he literally combined them all to suit his needs,(I don't know this as a fact i will admit but why know them all if he wouldn't use them?) so with greater force knowledge and lightsaber form he has a definite edge.

I'm a little long winded so know I'll have to explain certain things about anakin for those who obviously don't know very much (no offense meant)

1. He didn't live up to his potential. He COuld have been the most powerful force user ever but when obi-won cut off his legs that potential left him and Revan had arguably nearly as much if not the same amount of potential as him, just look at what kreia said about him and so on, I won't repeat it on the grounds that emperor Revan has listed them in many other debates the difference being he reached his full potential and I'd say even exceeded it.

2.Being the chosen one doesn't make you God it only means that you will bring balance to the force no where does it say in the prophesy that the chosen one would be the most powerful it only means he'll bring balance to the force. He did but I remind you that killing one sith lord with less then a tenth of the power of Revan doesn't make you the best. on the topic of luke he was only 80% as powerful as anakin but he reached his full potential which was about equal to revan the only difference being that Revan had alot more experience and a million times more knowledge of the force and lightsaber comment.

I will make one final point I sincerly apologize for writing so much but this luke is the strongest bs isn't true again really really sorry, here's my final point.

While Luke knew a great deal about the jedi he didn't know much about the sith. Revan not only knew more about the jedi but he also knew every single detail about the sith and his ability to manipulate his knowledge of both sides wheras luke is only relying on the light which is half the power of the true force.

D_CP

Lightsnake = owned.

Lightsnake

1. PAlpatine couldn't use the Jedi stuff he gathered, he explained then in no uncertain terms. Moreover, when does Luke use the dark side? And Vaapad relies on someone's inner darkness, it's very close to the darkside

2. Who faced the Naddists? The Jedi? There were....five Jedi on the planet at the time? They fought the Krath....when? In all the Sith War battles, Krath darksiders never took part....the Nightsisters? It's funny how Nightsisters weren't around until Yoda was a Jedi...

3. So what? They aren't fighting naked, BIG DEAL! So technology helps them and does a lot of their work, doesn't mean they're stronger. Take away their toys and see how well they do.

4. Dooku also used a fencing style saber that took great skill to use. And Durge was a superfast-to him, all Jedi moved in slow motion-super strong, nearly invincible monster of destruction who lived to kill....and killed Ruusan era Sith and Jedi. And Jedi and Sith before that.

5. And except for ONE time, Revan can sit back and let his party do the work. and when you slice into the terminals, the droids shut down.

6. Wait, where was it ever stated only Bane was Darth? There was a Sith named Darth Rivan, and there were also six others with the name of Darth...who says Revan didn't name himself Darth in honor of the old empire? Andeddu was dressed in ANCIENT sith gear, buried on Korriban and had a holocron...

7. And note it stated Palpatine had been on Korriban in his youth. He wasn't young in ROTS.

And Frobo's stuff?
"Always in motion is the Future." And Little Mr. "Can see the future through years away." Missed his ship being boarded and Malak blasting him?
He turned every Jedi that faced him? Bastila anyone? Turn Luke to the dark side? Please, Luke knows the dark side inside out now.
Jango far from the best Mandalorian? Please. Even Durge acknowledged him.
Using GAMEPLAY to sum up his reasons? Destroy Droid? Yoda uses it in Best Blades. Death Field? Palpatine uses it to demonstrate power to Vader. Force storm? Which is why Palpatine made one to destroy a fleet?
Revan knew every single combat trick the Jedi and Sith had to offer? Which is why Luke rediscovered techniques not known since the beginning of the Order?
Knew more about the Sith than anyone? Revan got a sex change and became Traya?

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. PAlpatine couldn't use the Jedi stuff he gathered, he explained then in no uncertain terms. Moreover, when does Luke use the dark side? And Vaapad relies on someone's inner darkness, it's very close to the darkside

Then how did he get so powerful? How do people who aren't darkside gain access to Sith items?

I know what you are talking about, though. Jedi put limits on their holocrons to keep their knowledge out of the wrong hands. Sith left theirs open in hopes that they would draw more people to the Darkside.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Who faced the Naddists? The Jedi? There were....five Jedi on the planet at the time? They fought the Krath....when? In all the Sith War battles, Krath darksiders never took part....the Nightsisters? It's funny how Nightsisters weren't around until Yoda was a Jedi...

Nightsisters not around until Yoda's time? Where did you hear this?
The Naddist had entire uprisings. I doubt 5 Jedi could have handled them.
I don't remember when they fought the Krath, but I've heard it mutiple times.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. So what? They aren't fighting naked, BIG DEAL! So technology helps them and does a lot of their work, doesn't mean they're stronger. Take away their toys and see how well they do.

No one is going to be taking away their toys though. They will WTFpwn anyone who tries.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Dooku also used a fencing style saber that took great skill to use. And Durge was a superfast-to him, all Jedi moved in slow motion-super strong, nearly invincible monster of destruction who lived to kill....and killed Ruusan era Sith and Jedi. And Jedi and Sith before that.

Durge wasn't old enough to kill many people before The New Sith Wars. Durge was a bounty hunter that someone like Malak would kill with his extensive array of force powers and lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. And except for ONE time, Revan can sit back and let his party do the work. and when you slice into the terminals, the droids shut down.

Can you prove that they did?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Wait, where was it ever stated only Bane was Darth? There was a Sith named Darth Rivan, and there were also six others with the name of Darth...who says Revan didn't name himself Darth in honor of the old empire? Andeddu was dressed in ANCIENT sith gear, buried on Korriban and had a holocron...

Rivan has never been mentioned in any canonical sources. Who are these six others. Who is Revan naming himself after to honor?

He couldn have gotten the Sith gear anywhere. That is not conclusive.

No one other then the the KOTOR Sith before Bane were canonically stated as Darth's. You theory has way to many holes in it. It lacks any real evidence and can be completly disreguarded.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. And note it stated Palpatine had been on Korriban in his youth. He wasn't young in ROTS.

Where was this noted? Can anyone else confirm this?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Frobo's stuff?
"Always in motion is the Future." And Little Mr. "Can see the future through years away." Missed his ship being boarded and Malak blasting him?
He turned every Jedi that faced him? Bastila anyone? Turn Luke to the dark side? Please, Luke knows the dark side inside out now.
Jango far from the best Mandalorian? Please. Even Durge acknowledged him.
Using GAMEPLAY to sum up his reasons? Destroy Droid? Yoda uses it in Best Blades. Death Field? Palpatine uses it to demonstrate power to Vader. Force storm? Which is why Palpatine made one to destroy a fleet?
Revan knew every single combat trick the Jedi and Sith had to offer? Which is why Luke rediscovered techniques not known since the beginning of the Order?
Knew more about the Sith than anyone? Revan got a sex change and became Traya?

What does Durge know? He never fought anyone that Revan fought.
What are these techniques Luke knew that no one but the first of the Order knew?
Bastila is one out of about 5000.
The Luke statement is a little dumb, but so is yours that says Luke knows the Darkside inside and out.

All the following is more or less true though.

Experience. Not hard to figure out Revan won every war he ever fought in almost single handedly he destroyed the mandalorians at the peak of their power and they were no pushovers I mean jango fett who was far from the best mandalorian killed 12 jedi barehanded, and jango fett pretty much effortlessly anhilated them. He then brought the republic to it's knees anhilating their entire army under the command of jedi and generals far superior to thos of a couple thousand years later. 3.Battle precognition. that's right revan could see the futur, but far more than almost any jedi. Revan was literally able to see the final outcome of entire wars even thoughs that lasted for years. He plundered the tombs of all the powerful sith lords and soaked up every piece of knowledge there was to know, as well as learning all there was to know about the jedi, hell he learned how to fight from tulak hord marka ragnos and naga sadow, Revan pretty much knew every single combat trick the ancient jedi and sith ahd to offer.

Lightsnake

1. Sith don't leave their knowledge open. ODan-Urr couldn't use the Sith Holocron Exar Kun had.

2. The Jedi never took on Krath force users, and the Naddist rvolt happened once when Arca, Ulic, Tott and Cay were on world, that was it. The Naddist movement passed away after that and Naddists weren't Force users. And in Courtship of Princess Leia, we learn that in the time after Kun, the Council exiled a rogue Jedi named Alaya to Dathomir where the clans were created...the Nightsisters were a recent group, only fifty years old or so. Gethzerion founded them

3. If we're gonna have fair fights, then the Sith give up their toys and their opponents'll do the same. No enhancements.

4. Durge CANNOT be killed by a lightsaber or by the Force, it's that simple. He's immune to most force techniques...and he was about 3000....he was a thousand when the New Sith took over.

5. Turn on KOTOR, go to that point and shut down all the consoles with the correct spikes...the droids stop moving when you do.

6. Darth Rivan was mentioned in the WOTC sources alongside Bane...if we throw that out, we throw out a lot of other stuff too. WHERE was Bane canonically stated as the first Darth ever?
He could have gotten ancient Sith armor anywhere? Yeah, where from exactly? Could he have a holocron from anywhere? Or been entombed on Korriban anywhere?
7. And in EE it was mentioned Palp had visited Korriban in his youth. And it's in the databank.
8. Bastila still shows that statement is wrong entirely. And considering it was Ood Bnar who mentioned that noone had seen those artifacts since the founding of the Order many millenia ago...Ood I believe. Durge was killing Sith and Mandalorians in the New Sith Wars, including a Mandalore. Jango Fett is highly acknowledged as a great Mandaloian and did more than any other Mandalorian. And geez, I just disproved about half of that.

Revan saw the future. Would've been helpful when Malak zapped him
Revan learned from NAGA SADOW? Tulak Hord? MARKA RAGNOS?! WHAT?! Naga was dead! He wasn't even buried on Korriban! Where's it even HINTED Revan learned all of their secrets?

�cooter

Do you guys get all hot and bothered with the super-posts?

calvin44

yes, its called "insta win debate", cause no one wants to read their super posts.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Sith don't leave their knowledge open. ODan-Urr couldn't use the Sith Holocron Exar Kun had.

Maybe Odan-Urr was really far into the light. Anyone could get knowledge from Sith Holocrons though. What do you think made Atris fall to the Darkside?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. The Jedi never took on Krath force users, and the Naddist rvolt happened once when Arca, Ulic, Tott and Cay were on world, that was it. The Naddist movement passed away after that and Naddists weren't Force users. And in Courtship of Princess Leia, we learn that in the time after Kun, the Council exiled a rogue Jedi named Alaya to Dathomir where the clans were created...the Nightsisters were a recent group, only fifty years old or so. Gethzerion founded them

By Nightsisters I mean Dark Witches of Dathomir.
King Ommin was a force user and he was a Naddist. Threats were considered more real in this time.

Let me put it another way, there was no form six in this time. No one used the diplomats form back then. The Jedi thought the Sith could pop up at any moment and were ready for it. They were at war more, but the main point is that they were at war with other force users, not the CIS. They fought people who used lightsabers, not droids with blasters. It's completly different.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. If we're gonna have fair fights, then the Sith give up their toys and their opponents'll do the same. No enhancements.

That is retarded. The force is an enhancement. Extra muscle is an enhancement. Lightsabers are an enhancement. The Jedi were shoes designed to be an enhancement over bare feet. You don't even know how powerful the Sith are without their amulets and it is impossibe to debate that.. If you don't like them having enhancements, either get over it and accept it, or leave. That's just how it has to be.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Durge CANNOT be killed by a lightsaber or by the Force, it's that simple. He's immune to most force techniques...and he was about 3000....he was a thousand when the New Sith took over.

Like I said, Durge never fought anyone Revan fought. Durge is not immune to the force techniques of a powerful enough user. A lightsaber vaporizes matter. Durge will get to the point where he can't regenerate.

Lightsabers obviously have some effect on him, since like you said, Dooku subdued him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Turn on KOTOR, go to that point and shut down all the consoles with the correct spikes...the droids stop moving when you do.

Can you prove that he did that. Most people would simply cut down their enemies, especially droids, when they wanted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Darth Rivan was mentioned in the WOTC sources alongside Bane...if we throw that out, we throw out a lot of other stuff too. WHERE was Bane canonically stated as the first Darth ever?

In the New Essential Guide to Characters.
What other stuff do we lose if we remove WOTC?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He could have gotten ancient Sith armor anywhere? Yeah, where from exactly? Could he have a holocron from anywhere? Or been entombed on Korriban anywhere?

Yes, he could. The Reborn were able to do it, so could any reasonable skilled Dark Jedi.

Making a holocron isn't especially hard as far as I know, so unless you can prove that it is we can assume that anyone could do it.
He could have gotten the armor on a random market. He could have found it on Korriban before he was buried there. He could have gotten it from plenty of different places.
It's not hard to be buried somewhere. Just get a six foot deep hole, put yourself in it and wait to die.

Nothing indicates that he was an Ancient Sith and plenty shows that he was not one.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. And in EE it was mentioned Palp had visited Korriban in his youth. And it's in the databank.

I didn't see it stated anywhere in there.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Bastila still shows that statement is wrong entirely. And considering it was Ood Bnar who mentioned that noone had seen those artifacts since the founding of the Order many millenia ago...Ood I believe. Durge was killing Sith and Mandalorians in the New Sith Wars, including a Mandalore. Jango Fett is highly acknowledged as a great Mandaloian and did more than any other Mandalorian. And geez, I just disproved about half of that.

Jango was a great Mandalorian for him time, not out of all time.
Durge killed a weaker Mandalore like Jango.
Jango did not do more then any other Mandalorian, so stop BSing. What do you think the Mandalorian that was responsible for the Mandalorian Wars did? He made 3 seperate Wars and pushed the Republic to the edge of collapse. That's a whole lot more then bounty hunting.

Bastila was one of out of thousands. The New Essential Guide to Chronology says that the Jedi who were following Revan in the war against the Mandalorians kept following him in his war against the Republic. That's about half of the Order which is thousands of Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan saw the future. Would've been helpful when Malak zapped him
Revan learned from NAGA SADOW? Tulak Hord? MARKA RAGNOS?! WHAT?! Naga was dead! He wasn't even buried on Korriban! Where's it even HINTED Revan learned all of their secrets?

When he plundered their tombs and stole all of their Sith Artifacts. I think that is what he meant by learned from them.

By the way, not everyone can see every possible outcome. Mace didn't see Anakin hacking off his hand. Mundi didn't see his troopers shooting him. Sidious didn't see Vader throwing him into the Death Star reactor shaft. He's not alone in his failure to perfectly see the future, because remember that it is always in motion, but he could get a pretty clear picture most of the time.

Lightsnake

1. Another KOTOR error, that simple. Or Atris was already lost to the Darkside.

2. No. No. no no and NO. The Jedi didn't know the Sith EXISTED until 5000 BBY, then thought they were extinct until 4000 BBY when Kun attack, then believed them gone forever until Revan when the order was pummeled...and the Dark Witches of Dathomir didn't exist in those time.
Ommin was a special case, Naddists were generally not Force users, only Nadd's own blood were. Name ONE group full of Dark Side users before the Jedi civil war, between Kun and Sadow, ONE group. It was the same thing as the Jedi in the PT. Hadn't faced in a thousand years.

3. Using the Force and sabers are perfectly acceptable. Giving someone the equivalent of massive steroids is not. In a fight of who is stronger, technology doesn't count to strength. It may be an advantage they'd use, but it doesn't make them stronger on their own.

4. Durge'd move fast enough to kill before someone finished the saber strike and proof he'd be affected by powerful Force users? Four Jedi-two of whom being Anakin and Obi-wan-couldn't do anything to him at once. Durge won't be sitting there letting them swing the lightsaber. He'd probably be flying with his jetpack. Durge was killing ruusan Sith and Ruusan Jedi who'd been facing Sith for 1000 years straight. That's more experience than anyone else thus far.

5. Take out WOTC, you lose a lot of Jedi/Sith history, most of the lightsaber forms, numerous histories...

6. When did ANY Reborn or reasonably skilled Dark Jedi find Ancient Sith armor? And making a Holocron isn't hard? Why did Vodo call it exceptionally difficult and known to true masters only? Andeddu found Ancient Sith armor on a market somewhere? With a Sith holocron in exact shape and design as the Ancient Sith HOlocrons? and in EE, it was stated not since the Ancient Empire had a Sith been entombed on Korriban. Especially as Quinlan went into the TOMB of Darth Andeddu...you think his apprentice dropped him off at Korriban after he murdered him if he was post Bane? And in the NegtC, it said Bane's line took Darth to honor him, not that he was the first Darth

7. Name one Mandalorian who accomplished what Jango did. Durge killed Mandalore Jaing who was described as one of the most fearsome Mandalores ever in Sw Insider 80, history of the Mandalorians-which gave us the names The Indomitable, the Ultimate and made a LOT of things on the Mandos canon-Jango killed four Jedi with his bare hands, he killed the second in command of the Death Watch at age 10, he destroyed the Death Watch on his own-completely on his own- he tore down criminal guilds and fought his way through the armies of Kolma to defeat a monster like Baron Montross to defeat Dooku's Padawan...he saved Coruscant from being destroyed by Asharr Khorda, he was heavily respected by Ghez Hokan and Durge even...he went toe to toe with Obi-wan...

8. The future's always in motion and unless you're about to die like Vodo, you ain't seeing it. Frobo was wrong. He didn't 'see the future' and screw the other people you mentioned, Revan couldn't see the future. PERIOD. And Marka Ragnos? Naga Sadow?

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Another KOTOR error, that simple. Or Atris was already lost to the Darkside.

Or you are in error. It takes solid evidence to prove something to be an EU continuty problem and not enough has been shown to support that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. No. No. no no and NO. The Jedi didn't know the Sith EXISTED until 5000 BBY, then thought they were extinct until 4000 BBY when Kun attack, then believed them gone forever until Revan when the order was pummeled...and the Dark Witches of Dathomir didn't exist in those time.
Ommin was a special case, Naddists were generally not Force users, only Nadd's own blood were. Name ONE group full of Dark Side users before the Jedi civil war, between Kun and Sadow, ONE group. It was the same thing as the Jedi in the PT. Hadn't faced in a thousand years.

Queen Amanoa(spelling?) was also a force using Naddist. Nadd had plenty of decendents during that time. Say there he had 6 kids(more is likely for a royal line), as did each of his kids and their kids and you find that there could have been over a thousand of his decendents with two or three hundred years. That's also assuming that he doesn't find another force user on the planet.

There were also a lot more dark jedi in those times because Jedi were allowed to marry and such.

Don't believe me that Nadd could have over a thouand decendents in less then 300 years?

Nadd = 6 kids = 36 kids = 216 = 1296 force using Naddist after just four generations. Assuming a 30 year generation, that 120 years. Royal blood lines have a problem with doing this, meaing their could have been several hundred fully trained Naddist ready to kill the Jedi at any moment.

Also note that there were huge numbers of Dark Jedi and the Order did not think the Sith extinct. That was why they trained in full armor and such. They each expected to engage someone in real lightsaber combat in their lives.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Using the Force and sabers are perfectly acceptable. Giving someone the equivalent of massive steroids is not. In a fight of who is stronger, technology doesn't count to strength. It may be an advantage they'd use, but it doesn't make them stronger on their own.

Oh my god, anything can make someone stronger or weaker. If you had been beaten as a child and had your legs permanetly broken, you would be weaker then someone who had good parents and played foot ball rather then moan about being weaker.

A lightsaber is technology.

If you do not accept that Amulets that they will always have with them as part of their power, leave. I'm serious. You seem to have realized that Ancient Sith at their peak are the best we know of and are now trying to cripple them with this new BS you have made up. They are that powerful, they always will be. You don't see me making threads like Marka Ragnos vs. Mace with no lightsaber, clothes, or use of the force. It's simply stupid.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Durge'd move fast enough to kill before someone finished the saber strike and proof he'd be affected by powerful Force users? Four Jedi-two of whom being Anakin and Obi-wan-couldn't do anything to him at once. Durge won't be sitting there letting them swing the lightsaber. He'd probably be flying with his jetpack. Durge was killing ruusan Sith and Ruusan Jedi who'd been facing Sith for 1000 years straight. That's more experience than anyone else thus far.

No, because no one lived long enough to get hold of all that experince. Anyone from the Hundred Year Darkness has just as much.

Obi-wan was able to effectively fight Durge off for a long time. Malak, who is a ton stronger will win, even if he has to toss a few grenades at him and vaporize all of Durge's mass, something he can't regenerate from.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Take out WOTC, you lose a lot of Jedi/Sith history, most of the lightsaber forms, numerous histories...

Almost everything else in WOTC is mentioned somewhere else too.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. When did ANY Reborn or reasonably skilled Dark Jedi find Ancient Sith armor? And making a Holocron isn't hard? Why did Vodo call it exceptionally difficult and known to true masters only? Andeddu found Ancient Sith armor on a market somewhere? With a Sith holocron in exact shape and design as the Ancient Sith HOlocrons? and in EE, it was stated not since the Ancient Empire had a Sith been entombed on Korriban. Especially as Quinlan went into the TOMB of Darth Andeddu...you think his apprentice dropped him off at Korriban after he murdered him if he was post Bane? And in the NegtC, it said Bane's line took Darth to honor him, not that he was the first Darth

What is EE?

When did Vodo say it was a hard thing to do? Someone nowadays can make a USB drive with only a few months of training, same should be true for the Sith.

Freedon Nadd, who was not an Ancient Sith, or Sith at all for that matter, had Ancient Sith armor. In KOTOR, Krath armor, which looks similar to what Adeddu was wearing, was commonly avaliable for a high price, but nothing a few mind tricks could get you.

It says that Bane STARTED the tradition of naming apprentices Darth, not that they took it up to honor him. Frankly, I'm get sick of you adding in your stupid BS everywhere you can, and I doubt that I am the only one. This is a perfect example of something you made up as I am looking at the New Essential Guide to Characters at this very moment and it says that Bane started the traditiobn. Cut the crap for now on.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Name one Mandalorian who accomplished what Jango did. Durge killed Mandalore Jaing who was described as one of the most fearsome Mandalores ever in Sw Insider 80, history of the Mandalorians-which gave us the names The Indomitable, the Ultimate and made a LOT of things on the Mandos canon-Jango killed four Jedi with his bare hands, he killed the second in command of the Death Watch at age 10, he destroyed the Death Watch on his own-completely on his own- he tore down criminal guilds and fought his way through the armies of Kolma to defeat a monster like Baron Montross to defeat Dooku's Padawan...he saved Coruscant from being destroyed by Asharr Khorda, he was heavily respected by Ghez Hokan and Durge even...he went toe to toe with Obi-wan...

I already did. The one Revan killed caused 3 wars. That alone is bigger then everything Jango and Boba did.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. The future's always in motion and unless you're about to die like Vodo, you ain't seeing it. Frobo was wrong. He didn't 'see the future' and screw the other people you mentioned, Revan couldn't see the future. PERIOD. And Marka Ragnos? Naga Sadow?

Marka and Sadow both had teachings in their tombs. There was writings in their that Revan could have read.

By seeing the future, he could see wars in the long run. It was stated by the Handmaided that the best Echani generals could see the course of wars years in advance. She also said Revan had mastered it to a higher degree then any Echani.

Lightsnake

1. However, how many of Nadd's kids were psychotic, evil power abusers? Most of Amanoa's family was dead by her own admission...others were beastriders, even. Nadd didn't spare his own blood. Most naddists were Ommin loyalists, that was it....please, proof they expected to engage the Sith? Even Vodo scolded Exar, saying they were gone forever.

2. That's FIRMLY different. Use their Sith powers and force ability with no way to amplify it: Just them without artifacts or amplifiers.

3. Durge has been hit with grnades before, an army's worth. It doesn't 'vaporize' him, it impacts on his armor and pisses him off.

4. Ok, Glentract, I'm confused....can we stop picking and choosing what we want to keep from WOTC? First it's 'well, the Sith Empire being 2000 years old is wrong', now it's 'well, it's appeared other places'...that's a bit frustrating.

5. EE= Empire's End. And Vodo said to the Kun. and page 25 of the NECG...it says Bane started the tradition of handing Darth to successors, not that he was the first Darth. Nothing claims he was the first Darth, and KOTOR disproves the idea that he was. Moreover, Nadd's armor wasn't Sith like...Nadd's armor was just armor. And krath armor is not similar to Andeddu's nor does it have a big, elaborate Sith headress.

7. Mandalore the Ultimate did not take out massive factions on his own...and he caused one war. ONE war. Just because Revan and Malak decided to carry on others doesn't mean he should be praised for it. In overall impact, Jango's clones had a bigger impact than the Ultimate, and in martial feats, Jango certainly outdid him.

8. Sadow shouldn't even HAVE a tomb! He was on Yavin at the time, and why would Ludo Kressh, in the two days it took him to usurp Sadow's throne, let them build a massive tomb to honor the Sith who got them wiped out?

And if revan could see the outcome of wars, didn't he notice the Sith losing?

calvin44

Bane did start the tradition;although Darth just means Dark Lord, it could have been used before, but not as a tradition. Don't be rude Glentract.

calvin44

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
By seeing the future, he could see wars in the long run. It was stated by the Handmaided that the best Echani generals could see the course of wars years in advance. She also said Revan had mastered it to a higher degree then any Echani.
He could see the course, but not the outcome. If he could see the outcome, why did he even start the wars?

�cooter

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It's simple, if you don't like them, don't read them. laughing

I never said I didn't like them, now did I? I asked a question... and your dodging around it leads me to believe I was right.

EDIT: And to be more clear, I never actually read any of them.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. However, how many of Nadd's kids were psychotic, evil power abusers? Most of Amanoa's family was dead by her own admission...others were beastriders, even. Nadd didn't spare his own blood. Most naddists were Ommin loyalists, that was it....please, proof they expected to engage the Sith? Even Vodo scolded Exar, saying they were gone forever.

Vodo was trying to keep Exar away from the darkside as much as possible. Telling him it was gone for good would be a good way to do this.

The Naddist could have become random Dark Jedi who the Jedi fought one at a time. The Jedi had to face non, force weilders too, that were far less powerful in PT times, such as the Gank Mercenaries. According to the New Essential Guide to Chronology, this eventually became a full-scale war.

Also, I can't believe that you missed this, during the Vultar Cataclysm in 4250 B.B.Y. there was what the New Essential Guide described as the 3rd Great Schism amoung the Jedi Order and a big war on Coruscant.

There was also the Great Droid Revolution in 4015 B.B.Y., during which thousands of droids rebelled against their leaders and the Jedi were called into action to defeat them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. That's FIRMLY different. Use their Sith powers and force ability with no way to amplify it: Just them without artifacts or amplifiers.

A lightsaber is an extension of a Jedi though. It amplifies their fighting capability just as a Sith Amulet does. If you don't want the Sith to be using their amulets, then KMC just isn't the place for you, I guess.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Durge has been hit with grnades before, an army's worth. It doesn't 'vaporize' him, it impacts on his armor and pisses him off.

Thermal detonators will have a different effect, I believe.

In anycase, you have in no way shown how Dooku is more powerful then Malak. I suggest you do so.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Ok, Glentract, I'm confused....can we stop picking and choosing what we want to keep from WOTC? First it's 'well, the Sith Empire being 2000 years old is wrong', now it's 'well, it's appeared other places'...that's a bit frustrating.

You know, it be a lot easier to do this if you put what part of my post you are actually referring to in quotes just above your post. Just put, "Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
" at the beginning and "" at the end of each section of my post you are talking about. Make sure to leave a space between the "" and the end of the paragraph or else it won't work.

What exactly am I picking from the WOTC?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. EE= Empire's End. And Vodo said to the Kun. and page 25 of the NECG...it says Bane started the tradition of handing Darth to successors, not that he was the first Darth. Nothing claims he was the first Darth, and KOTOR disproves the idea that he was. Moreover, Nadd's armor wasn't Sith like...Nadd's armor was just armor. And krath armor is not similar to Andeddu's nor does it have a big, elaborate Sith headress.

Just look at some pictures of them!

Here is Nadd:

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/4785/0freedonnadd8ji.th.jpg

Here is Andeddu:

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/2056/0andeddu6ea.th.jpg

Here is Nadd again:

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/3397/0naddalive2fm.th.jpg

They look the SAME! You can't argue that they don't have the same armor.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Mandalore the Ultimate did not take out massive factions on his own...and he caused one war. ONE war. Just because Revan and Malak decided to carry on others doesn't mean he should be praised for it. In overall impact, Jango's clones had a bigger impact than the Ultimate, and in martial feats, Jango certainly outdid him.

Jango caused zero wars. ZERO wars. Zero is less then one last time iI checked. And if the Mandalore hadn't started the Mandalorian War neither the Sith Civil War, nor the Jedi Civil War would have happened because it was him who got Revan and Malak to turn to the darkside.

It's also noted in the New Essential Guide to Chronology that the Mandalore we are talking about took the Mandalorians from control over just a single world to an Empire that dwarfed the Hutts. It also said that he would be forever honored in Mandalorian War songs.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Sadow shouldn't even HAVE a tomb! He was on Yavin at the time, and why would Ludo Kressh, in the two days it took him to usurp Sadow's throne, let them build a massive tomb to honor the Sith who got them wiped out?

Yes, Sadow did have a tomb on Korriban. It was dedicated to him. The Sith still existed a thousand years later, as seen in KOTOR 2 and also in KOTOR we can clearly see their tombs on the surface of the planet.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And if revan could see the outcome of wars, didn't he notice the Sith losing?

Did I say outcome or did I say course. He couldn't see the end result, no one can see everything with perfect clarity, it's just that Revan could far more then Mace or Mundi.

�cooter

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
If they bothered me, why would I make so many of them? In short, they don't.

If you don't read the 'meat' of the thread, why bother posting in it or looking at it? I didn't ask if they bothered you no expression

I was reading the begining of the thread until it turned into a gigantic "Super-post" war.

�cooter

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You asked, "Do you guys get all hot and bothered with the super-posts?" Who is you guys then? I take it now that wasn't a general question out to everyone. Hot and Bothered = Turned on. It was sarcasm stick out tongue

Originally posted by calvin44
he makes super-posts cause he knows how to prove his point, unlike you. Super-posts aren't nessecary to prove your point.

�cooter

Maybe, but they're just commonly an excuse to make long-winded comments and veiled insults with a lot large words in them. Or maybe I'm just too used to the GDF.

Fishy

Okay just going to adress one thing now.

Mandalore.

He fought a war for more then 40 years, 40 years in which his warriors killed Jedi killed army's 10x their size and were based purely and only on fighting. The Mandelorians are ruld by the most powerful. After 40 years of constant fighting you are going to have some very freaking powerful people. Canderous for instance was feared in the entire Outer Rim and incredibly famous. Its to bad Kotor didn't really carry it out, but still its said so on Taris by several people that could know.

Thats one freaking Mandelorian, known throughout a large section of the galaxy. Canderous has killed Jedi too, other Mandelorian champions have as well. The Mandelorian Champions in Kotor II have both killed Jedi, the last one you beat does say he lost his last fight and still has a lot to learn but that was in a fighter. Canderous lead those guys. He was weaker then the previous Mandelore, he admits to it himself.

40 years of constant warfare against opponents that could destroy you, against army's that you face only to challenge you and for no other reason... Well thats going to make some very powerful warriors. Both in space and on the ground, with swords and with guns. Energy shields made the shields very usefull, and still Mandalore was more powerful. Those Mandelorians managed to kill Jedi in a war, managed to make the republic shake with fewer troops but far better trained, thats why they did what they did. Mandalore was even greater then all of those people. He freaking pwned.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Vodo was trying to keep Exar away from the darkside as much as possible. Telling him it was gone for good would be a good way to do this.

The Naddist could have become random Dark Jedi who the Jedi fought one at a time. The Jedi had to face non, force weilders too, that were far less powerful in PT times, such as the Gank Mercenaries. According to the New Essential Guide to Chronology, this eventually became a full-scale war.

Also, I can't believe that you missed this, during the Vultar Cataclysm in 4250 B.B.Y. there was what the New Essential Guide described as the 3rd Great Schism amoung the Jedi Order and a big war on Coruscant.

There was also the Great Droid Revolution in 4015 B.B.Y., during which thousands of droids rebelled against their leaders and the Jedi were called into action to defeat them.

A lightsaber is an extension of a Jedi though. It amplifies their fighting capability just as a Sith Amulet does. If you don't want the Sith to be using their amulets, then KMC just isn't the place for you, I guess.

Thermal detonators will have a different effect, I believe.

In anycase, you have in no way shown how Dooku is more powerful then Malak. I suggest you do so.

You know, it be a lot easier to do this if you put what part of my post you are actually referring to in quotes just above your post. Just put, "" at the end of each section of my post you are talking about. Make sure to leave a space between the "" and the end of the paragraph or else it won't work.

What exactly am I picking from the WOTC?

Just look at some pictures of them!

Here is Nadd:

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/4785/0freedonnadd8ji.th.jpg

Here is Andeddu:

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/2056/0andeddu6ea.th.jpg

Here is Nadd again:

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/3397/0naddalive2fm.th.jpg

They look the SAME! You can't argue that they don't have the same armor.

Jango caused zero wars. ZERO wars. Zero is less then one last time iI checked. And if the Mandalore hadn't started the Mandalorian War neither the Sith Civil War, nor the Jedi Civil War would have happened because it was him who got Revan and Malak to turn to the darkside.

It's also noted in the New Essential Guide to Chronology that the Mandalore we are talking about took the Mandalorians from control over just a single world to an Empire that dwarfed the Hutts. It also said that he would be forever honored in Mandalorian War songs.

Yes, Sadow did have a tomb on Korriban. It was dedicated to him. The Sith still existed a thousand years later, as seen in KOTOR 2 and also in KOTOR we can clearly see their tombs on the surface of the planet.

Did I say outcome or did I say course. He couldn't see the end result, no one can see everything with perfect clarity, it's just that Revan could far more then Mace or Mundi.

1. As opposed to even Odan-Urr thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back?

2. The Jedi didn't commit their entire forces to wars with the Ganks and the Kanz...they sent in small forces and then used knights to finish it...notice the wars didn't last long with Jedi involved.

3. The third great Schism amongst the Jedi goes in direct contradiction of other sources, as well as being 300 years before....and droids are not dark siders. And The Jedi had only just come to Onderon since Nadd...the Naddists died out after Kun

4. A lightsaber doesn't amplify force powers. If you're comparing power, than don't give them kaiburr crystals, sith amulets, force crystals etc.

5. The entire little detail about WOTC and Xendor's schism...reducing the SE to a 2000 year empire.

6. I see no similarities and the headress. holocron and tomb on Korriban remain...though considering Nadd could have plundered Sadow's corpse, or the corpses of the long dead Sith Lords on Yavin...

7. In the Character Guide, they were talking about Mandalore the First, the Ultimate didn't even exist yet in SW continuity. And Jango was arguably responsible for the Clone Wars...did Mandalore the Ultimate ever wipe out the Death Watch singlehandedly? Did he ever kill Jedi when massively outnumbered with his bare hands? Did he ever fight his way singlehandedly through kingdoms and crime lords to kill a dark jedi and her entire army along with a man like Montross?

In a mano a mano, martial feats are greater than tactical feats...not only that, Jango never got the Mandalorians nearly exterminated and forced to become bootlickers for crime lords

Lightsnake

1. As opposed to even Odan-Urr thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back?

2. The Jedi didn't commit their entire forces to wars with the Ganks and the Kanz...they sent in small forces and then used knights to finish it...notice the wars didn't last long with Jedi involved.

3. The third great Schism amongst the Jedi goes in direct contradiction of other sources, as well as being 300 years before....and droids are not dark siders. And The Jedi had only just come to Onderon since Nadd...the Naddists died out after Kun

4. A lightsaber doesn't amplify force powers. If you're comparing power, than don't give them kaiburr crystals, sith amulets, force crystals etc.

5. The entire little detail about WOTC and Xendor's schism...reducing the SE to a 2000 year empire.

6. I see no similarities and the headress. holocron and tomb on Korriban remain...though considering Nadd could have plundered Sadow's corpse, or the corpses of the long dead Sith Lords on Yavin...

7. In the Character Guide, they were talking about Mandalore the First, the Ultimate didn't even exist yet in SW continuity. And Jango was arguably responsible for the Clone Wars...did Mandalore the Ultimate ever wipe out the Death Watch singlehandedly? Did he ever kill Jedi when massively outnumbered with his bare hands? Did he ever fight his way singlehandedly through kingdoms and crime lords to kill a dark jedi and her entire army along with a man like Montross?

In a mano a mano, martial feats are greater than tactical feats...not only that, Jango never got the Mandalorians nearly exterminated and forced to become bootlickers for crime lords

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. As opposed to even Odan-Urr thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back?

Like I said, there were other problems such as the Ganks and Droid Uprising.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. The Jedi didn't commit their entire forces to wars with the Ganks and the Kanz...they sent in small forces and then used knights to finish it...notice the wars didn't last long with Jedi involved.

In the New Essential Guide to Chronology, it was described as a full-scale war. I would like to see where you got this information that it was just a minor one.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. The third great Schism amongst the Jedi goes in direct contradiction of other sources, as well as being 300 years before....and droids are not dark siders. And The Jedi had only just come to Onderon since Nadd...the Naddists died out after Kun

What are these other sources? Unless it's a quote directly from Lucas, Lucasfilm, or the moives, it's canon because the Essential Guides are higher level canon then even regular EU novels or comics.

Just because the droids aren't darksiders means nothing. CIS droids weren't darksiders either. Neither was the Mandalorians. Those each had a huge effect on the Jedi and they weren't darksiders. If you want to make the Great Droid Revolution not count, you can't count the Clone Wars either because darksiders were primarily not involved.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. A lightsaber doesn't amplify force powers. If you're comparing power, than don't give them kaiburr crystals, sith amulets, force crystals etc.

Having amulets is part of their power. No one has any clue about how powerful they would be without their amulets and I doubt many people care because they would never be caught without their amulets, making it never matter in EU times.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. The entire little detail about WOTC and Xendor's schism...reducing the SE to a 2000 year empire.

Xendor's Schism is also mentioned in some of the older Essential Guides and the Han Solo Trilogy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. I see no similarities and the headress. holocron and tomb on Korriban remain...though considering Nadd could have plundered Sadow's corpse, or the corpses of the long dead Sith Lords on Yavin...

Nadd could have, but as far as we know he didn't.
It wouldn't be very hard to get a tomb on Korriban. He could have built it himself or highered someone or something. It's really not a very hard thing to do.

Also note that the armor more closely resembles Nadd's armor then Sadow's armor or Ludo's armor.

Vodo Baas made a holocron too, but many Ancient Sith would take him.
I don't know wy you are still talking about the headress. Andeddu's looks more like Nadd's then any of the Ancient Sith's.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. In the Character Guide, they were talking about Mandalore the First, the Ultimate didn't even exist yet in SW continuity. And Jango was arguably responsible for the Clone Wars...did Mandalore the Ultimate ever wipe out the Death Watch singlehandedly? Did he ever kill Jedi when massively outnumbered with his bare hands? Did he ever fight his way singlehandedly through kingdoms and crime lords to kill a dark jedi and her entire army along with a man like Montross?

Read Fishy's post. It answers this quite well.

Jango was not responsible for the Clone Wars. They would still have happened without him because he was one out of dozens of people who could have been cloned. No one else could have led the Mandalorians into wars like the Mandalore who Revan fought. No one else would have gotten Revan and Malak to fall to the darkside. Jango certainly couldn't have done it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In a mano a mano, martial feats are greater than tactical feats...not only that, Jango never got the Mandalorians nearly exterminated and forced to become bootlickers for crime lords

Jango did get the Mandalorians exterminated completly. Rather then training new Mandalorians, he bounty hunted and got the Mandalorians destroyed until Boba restarted them, but by then they weren't very powerful. Jango completly failed as a Mandalorian.

Mandalorians pwned Jedi all the time and this Mandalore is better then all them. If all his lacky's can kill someone, he should be able to also.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. As opposed to even Odan-Urr thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back?

As opposed to even Yoda thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back in TPM ? If you have a group which contains dozens or even thousands of people and you have an entire Galaxy filled with places to hide - a great part of them being not recognized by the Republic - you can't tell if a group of people was "exterminated" or not...

Oh. Again using double standarts ? If the Essential Chronology supports your opinion it has the final word which can't be argued - if it doesn't it's a questionable source ?

It doesn't matter. The point is that some people were able to create stuff to amplify their force powers were other people weren't. The ability to do that is a part of a persons power. Having a lightsaber you're more powerful than without a lightsaber - do you want to argue that ?

Since you labeled the Essential Chronology an errorous source yourself and Lucasfilms own website (starwars.com) contradicts the idea that "SE = 2000 year empire" we'll simply go on and work with the 20,000 year figure.

And again you're using double standarts. In the Vong vs Ancient Sith Empire thread you told me that the Vong would curbstomp the Ancient Sith in a battle because having better "tactics" despite the fact that the Sith are more powerful personally. Now you reverse that statement and say martial feats are greater than tactical feats.

It also would be nice if you would stop using all possible occasions a person was defeated to discredit the person. You're basically saying that the Mandalorians were defeated because of Mandalore's faults and not because having an army of force users and a tactical genious against them therefore you're discrediting not only Mandalore but Revan too.
The same way I could say that Sidious was nothing else than an arrogant fool who did not only manage to lose an entire Empire against people that were far inferior but was also responsible for the extinct of the Sith Order. Do you see how senseless that is ?

Lightsnake

Glen:
1. There were other problems in Yoda's era too, from Nightsisters, to the Stark Hyperspace, to numerous pirates, some dark jedi overlords....

2. That the Jedi arrived AFTER the full scales wars started.

3. The CIS only had Dark Siders leading, manipulating and COMMANDING. I withdrw what I said on the thirsd schism, but still...three hundred years. And not Sith.

4. So, without their amulets, they're just not that powerful? And using amulets and artifacts is the only way they can even be considered remotely powerful?
5. Xendor's schism was never given a complete conclusion or year. WOTC did that.

6. ....what? Nadd didn't have a headdress, he had a helmet and you are grasping at straws completely. 'Hired someone to build him an elaborate tomb n a long forgotten Dark Side world when Ragnos was the last Sith to be entombed there?' That's from KJA's story 'Bane of the Sith' btw. And Nadd most likely took his armor from a dead Sith, or Naga's corpse. Not a big deal there. As once said: Occam's razor

7. Did the Ultimate ever wipe out entire factions, kingdoms, crime organizations and a dark jedi like Vosa all on his own? You're discussing overall impact, I'm talking about martial feats. And yeah, Jango couldn't have done it, because unlike that scum of a Mandalore, Jango was actually an honorable man.
8. Umm, no...Baron Montross betrayed the Mandalorians and the Death Watch lied to the Republic and said the Mandalorians were murdering women and children. And weren't very powerful? Boba's Mandalorians neo Protectors are now one of the strongest factions in the galaxy. Canderous said Mandalorian champions killed Jedi. Considering Jango killed a great many with his bare hands-bare hands and still had enough left to wipe out the Death Watch...And Mandalorians pwned Jedi all the time? Which is why the Jedi were slaughtering them in the Sith War?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
As opposed to even Yoda thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back in TPM ? If you have a group which contains dozens or even thousands of people and you have an entire Galaxy filled with places to hide - a great part of them being not recognized by the Republic - you can't tell if a group of people was "exterminated" or not...

Oh. Again using double standarts ? If the Essential Chronology supports your opinion it has the final word which can't be argued - if it doesn't it's a questionable source ?

It doesn't matter. The point is that some people were able to create stuff to amplify their force powers were other people weren't. The ability to do that is a part of a persons power. Having a lightsaber you're more powerful than without a lightsaber - do you want to argue that ?

Since you labeled the Essential Chronology an errorous source yourself and Lucasfilms own website (starwars.com) contradicts the idea that "SE = 2000 year empire" we'll simply go on and work with the 20,000 year figure.

And again you're using double standarts. In the Vong vs Ancient Sith Empire thread you told me that the Vong would curbstomp the Ancient Sith in a battle because having better "tactics" despite the fact that the Sith are more powerful personally. Now you reverse that statement and say martial feats are greater than tactical feats.

It also would be nice if you would stop using all possible occasions a person was defeated to discredit the person. You're basically saying that the Mandalorians were defeated because of Mandalore's faults and not because having an army of force users and a tactical genious against them therefore you're discrediting not only Mandalore but Revan too.
The same way I could say that Sidious was nothing else than an arrogant fool who did not only manage to lose an entire Empire against people that were far inferior but was also responsible for the extinct of the Sith Order. Do you see how senseless that is ?

1. Why are the Jedi badmouthed in the PT era when the old Jedi made the same exact mistakes? This I really want to know...

2. I accept there was a third schism. I don't like it, but I accept it. However, it didn't involve Sith and was three hundred years before the next war.

3. A lightsaber is a weapon. I can use a sword in a fencing match, but I can't use steroids, get the picture? And they used force sensitive crystals for all their technology there. Kinda like the ones on Dantooine.

4. No, we won't. The Chronology overrides you completely. It's official and flies against nothing. Leland Chee said it himself that it's official and retcons are occuring. I've linked to his QaA page numerous times, shall I do it once more?

5. There's a firm difference as I'm comparing the feats of two men, not saying who would defeat the other. I'm not arguing their capabilities in a fleet battle-and nevermind that idiotic statement one Sith could beat Billions of Vong- I'm arguing the greatness of one to the other. Sidious, unlike the Sith empire, actually destroyed the Jedi order and took over the Republic. The Sith Empire screwed up in every possible regard-who makes GAV DARAGON their second in command? And unlike the Sith empire, Palpatine had destiny itself working against him. The Sith Empire threw most of their strength against a number three worlds where they were devastated.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Glen:
1. There were other problems in Yoda's era too, from Nightsisters, to the Stark Hyperspace, to numerous pirates, some dark jedi overlords....

You completly miss the point.

Ki-Adi Mundi(Episode 2), "There hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic." The Republic was recreated 1000 years prior to the movies after the New Sith War.

There was at least 1 full scale war between the Great Hyperspace War and the Great Sith War, and another Jedi Civil War and a droid revolution. That's way more then any any problems the PT Jedi faced or trained to perpare for. The Stark Hyperspace War was about a week long and was settled by 5 or 6 Jedi, one of which was a padawan.

Name any of the Dark Jedi.

The Nightsisters weren't a threat to the Order as a whole. The Ganks, the Third Great Jedi Schism, and the Great Droid Revolution were.

There were many pirates between the Great Hyperspace War and Great Sith War too. Nomi's husband was killed by them(she then picked up his lightsaber and pwned them).

The PT Jedi were trained to be diplomats. 90% of the Order used the diplomats form. The Ancient Jedi were trained to fight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. That the Jedi arrived AFTER the full scales wars started.

You haven't provided any sources. I have. The defenders of the Republic don't just sit around and then defeat their enemies in the very end.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. The CIS only had Dark Siders leading, manipulating and COMMANDING. I withdrw what I said on the thirsd schism, but still...three hundred years. And not Sith.

Sith aren't the only bad guys with power. Ajunta Pall and Freedon Nadd weren't Sith, but they could pwn people like Yoda, Mace, or Revan.

If a schism is referred to as a Great schism, there have to be thousands of Jedi on each side of the conflict. Name all the darksiders in the entire CIS. Sidious, Dooku, Sora, Ventress, Bulq, Vos, Sev'rance Tann, the three Mace killed on Geonosis, and that's it. 10 guys, one of which did nothing and three of which died on the very first day of the war. Look who the supreme commander of the CiS was. Yes, it was General Grevious, not a force user.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. So, without their amulets, they're just not that powerful? And using amulets and artifacts is the only way they can even be considered remotely powerful?

Did I say that? No. I said we don't know how powerful they would be. If you don't like it, thats to bad. It's just the way it is. You don't see anyone else crying about Sidious artificially renewing his body through cloning.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Xendor's schism was never given a complete conclusion or year. WOTC did that.

Yes, it was infact.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. ....what? Nadd didn't have a headdress, he had a helmet and you are grasping at straws completely. 'Hired someone to build him an elaborate tomb n a long forgotten Dark Side world when Ragnos was the last Sith to be entombed there?' That's from KJA's story 'Bane of the Sith' btw. And Nadd most likely took his armor from a dead Sith, or Naga's corpse. Not a big deal there. As once said: Occam's razor

We know that there were no Sith outside of the KOTOR ones to be around before Darth Bane.

If Nadd took his armor off Naga's corpse, and, like you said, they have different armor, then Andeddu is not an Ancient Sith.

We also know that KJA was wrong when he said Ragnos was the last person entombed there beause in KOTOR we can see where Naga and Ludo ended up. We can look at the planet and see that Andeddu's tomb was not in the Valley of the Dark Lords and therefor less important or powerful then Tulak Hord, who Revan got his holocron from.

We know that you have not proved that he was an Ancient Sith. We know that you have consistently used double standards whenever it has helped your case. We know that you have made tons of crap up before and we know that you have used hyperbole on mutiple occasions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Did the Ultimate ever wipe out entire factions, kingdoms, crime organizations and a dark jedi like Vosa all on his own? You're discussing overall impact, I'm talking about martial feats. And yeah, Jango couldn't have done it, because unlike that scum of a Mandalore, Jango was actually an honorable man.

Jango was scum. He was a bounty hunter. That's one of the least honorable wars there are. Why wasn't Jango out training new Mandalorians or leading wars for the glory of the Empire? Why did the Mandalorians DIE under Jango's rule, but they went from only two or three planets to over a hundred thousand under This other Mandalores rule.

Jango honorable? Not entirely. He had his son providing heavy weapon support when fighting Obi-wan. That's completly unfair and dishonorable. If I was in a fist fight with you, and then I had my friend shoot you with a shotgun while we were fighting, that would be one of the most dishonorable things possible. That's what Jango had done.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Umm, no...Baron Montross betrayed the Mandalorians and the Death Watch lied to the Republic and said the Mandalorians were murdering women and children. And weren't very powerful? Boba's Mandalorians neo Protectors are now one of the strongest factions in the galaxy. Canderous said Mandalorian champions killed Jedi. Considering Jango killed a great many with his bare hands-bare hands and still had enough left to wipe out the Death Watch...And Mandalorians pwned Jedi all the time? Which is why the Jedi were slaughtering them in the Sith War?

By Jango's time, the Mandalorians had less then 20 planets. In Boba's time, they were rebuilding, but they only had 3 planets. Under the Mandalore that Revan killed, they were stated as bigger then the Hutt Empire, which contains about 100,000 planets. Thats 5,000 times bigger and more powerful.

We know that the Mandalorians in KOTOR times were able to wage a several year long war against both the Republic and the Jedi Order.

Lightsnake

1. No force users or Sith. And 'full scale war' means it doesn't involve the Republic. There was still a massive war of Khooda, the Yinchorri war...I want some damn proof the Ganks were ANY threat, or the droids...you want some proof of their enemies? Matriarch Zalem who almost activated Infinity's End...Volffe Karkko, the Anzati who was a massive threat to the Order, the Mandalorian crusaders in that era...Nomi also didn't 'own' those pirates. She killed two and the other escped...and they weren't pirates, they were hutt thugs. Proof the Ancient Jedi trained to fight. They hadn't seen conflict in centuries. And constant battering of their order every other week and near extinction was BOUND to weaken them. In fact, there's no reason why they weren't stronger at Ruusan...they'd only been fighting a war against the Sith for a millenium STRAIGHT

2. I seriously doubt Freedon would come close to Mace, Yoda or Revan....I seriously, honestly doubt this stupid, arrogant fool could dent them. He was no Sith and never as near as strong as them.

3. There was a REASOn Grievous was the supreme commander: He'd cause massive atrocity, weaken the Jedi and serve as a scapegoat. You also missed the Dark Jedi: Vandalor, Saato, Vinoc and his brother, Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr, the Anzati Corran Horn's grandfather killed...

4. No, you don't see anyone crying about Sidious taking new bodies. Why? Because I'd insist he'd face his opponent without a cheap toy to enhance his power, as apparently the Ancient Sith couldn't and didn't do much without their toys.

5. No, in the Han Solo trilogy, Xendor's rebellion is never given a date or time. WOTC filled in the blanks and dan Wallace did the rest.

6. How do we know this exactly? Do you know every single Sith Lord in the Old Empire? And I'm so certain the Ancient Sith had only ONE style of armor! Instantly disproved as Ragnos's armor looks nothing like KRessh's and Shar Dakhan's looks nothing like Horak Muul's. And Sadow died on yavin 4, which went undiscovered since Exar Kun. And Ludo Kressh was BLOWN UP IN SPACE. And in that Valley of the Dark Lords....there are how many tombs? SIX?! For 2000 years, you're telling me there were SIX Sith Lords when Ragnos ruling for a century was rare? And the Valley of the Dark Lords is shown to be much bigger than the single site in KOTOR in Clone wars Volume 4: Shadows and Light. You haven't misproved a single thing. In fact, your argument is "Well...maybe he was buried here somehwere else, on a secret planet, where he had a holocron, Sith style armor and headress and a tomb on Korriban!"
KJA wrong? He CREATED Korriban and the Ancient Sith. And repeat: Kressh was vaporized in space. How would he have a tomb exactly?

7. How is being a bounty hunter scum? Unlike the honorable Mandalore the Ultimate, Jango never murdered women and children or comitted mass genocide. I'd take a small town cook over Stalin any day. By Jango's time, the Mandalorians had stopped 'leading wars for the glory of the Empire.' Times had changed and thanks to the Death Watch splintering because the Death Watch wanted to keep raiding and conquering. And for the record, the Death Watch shot a little girl dead-Jango's sister- to make sure she wouldn't talk. Why were the Mandos wiped out? Because Montross betrayed them and told the Jedi the Mandos were murdering women and children and he and the death watch created evidence. Jango led a war for Mandalorian honor: The war against the Death Watch and in true Mandalorian fashion, he avenged his people and slaughtered Montross and the death Watch.
Answer me, Glentract: Why's it honorable to turn innocent people into dust particles? How's it honorable to butcher and murder the innocent? I don't give a damn what's right in their culture, plenty people have thought theur bloodthirsty ways were right. The Spartans approved of raping little boys, the Roman culture approved of rape and wiping out civilizations....are the Mandalorians exempt because they wear cool armor?
Ghez Hokan said it himself: "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." And Jango never told Boba to shoot at Obi-wan, Boba took the initiative himself. And wait, didn't train New recruits? Jango practically doubled the size of the Mandos after Jaster died.

Where are you getting these figures? 100,000 worlds? Hutt space is as big as Hapan Space which holds sixty worls. Unlike the Mandos of Canderous's time, Jango was adopted into the culture by Jaster Mereel after the Death Watch killed his family in front of him. he was raised on revenge and became one of the youngest commanders they'd ever known. By Boba's time, they're not interesting in 'fighting for the glory of the empire', they're interested in REAL honor, which doesn't involve genocide.

calvin44

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. No force users or Sith. And 'full scale war' means it doesn't involve the Republic. There was still a massive war of Khooda, the Yinchorri war...I want some damn proof the Ganks were ANY threat, or the droids...you want some proof of their enemies? Matriarch Zalem who almost activated Infinity's End...Volffe Karkko, the Anzati who was a massive threat to the Order, the Mandalorian crusaders in that era...Nomi also didn't 'own' those pirates. She killed two and the other escped...and they weren't pirates, they were hutt thugs. Proof the Ancient Jedi trained to fight. They hadn't seen conflict in centuries. And constant battering of their order every other week and near extinction was BOUND to weaken them. In fact, there's no reason why they weren't stronger at Ruusan...they'd only been fighting a war against the Sith for a millenium STRAIGHT

The Anzati, Volffe Karkko, and Zalem didn't require more then ten Jedi to defeat because they weren't major threats. The entire Order would gear up for war just because of them.

The Mandalorians sucked by those times. Durge had assassinated the Mandalore and the Mandalorians had gone into a civil war. Dooku destroyed them when Mace was a padawan.

It stated that Nomi handled her lightsaber like an master who had fought for years. That's ownage.

The Great Droid Revolution was when thousands of droids, many of the military droids and body guards were forced to attack living beings by an HK-01 Assassin Droid. There's not much more of a threat then that.

You're starting to annoy me with this crap. Proof that the Jedi in Revan's time weren't trained to fight? That they haven't fought in centuries? Have you read anything I have typed! The Great Droid Revolution which I have shown to have been a major threat was just 25 years before Revan was born. The Great Sith War was less then a decade before Revan was born. There was a Jedi Civil war within 300 years. Where the hell did you get the idea that they hadn't fought in centuries?

Wait, so first you say they haven't fought in centuries, then you say that they must be weak from being battered every week? Stop trying to double play points in your favor, it's not logical and only serves to piss people off. They weren't fighting every week, but they were training and preparing to fight every week, unlike PT Jedi, who were lax and trained to be diplomats.

WTF? What the hell makes you think that 'full scale war' means no Republic? What do you think the Clone Wars were? What do you think the Great Sith War and Great Hyperspace War were? Full scale wars! I don't know how you come up with this crap.

Proof that the Ganks were a threat? It was a labled a full scale war. That means that every planet in the Republic new about it and that the ENTIRE military was called into immediate action. That would not be had they not been a threat.

The Sith at Ruusan were very powerful. Bane could take Mace for sure. You fail to realize though that no one lived long enough to get much experince out of the New Sith War. Once you are training for war, you are training for war, it makes no difference on how long the war went on.

The Khoonda and Yichorri Wars were NOT massive. Less then 1% of the Order was involved in either one.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. I seriously doubt Freedon would come close to Mace, Yoda or Revan....I seriously, honestly doubt this stupid, arrogant fool could dent them. He was no Sith and never as near as strong as them.

Nadd was described as amazingly open to the force. Nadd killed a Jedi Master as a apprentice. Nadd completely succumbed to the teachings of the Sith and became proficient in the use of dark side Sith magic.

He fought off the beast riders for decades, something that Mace probably could not have done. Prove that Mace, Yoda, or Revan would stand even a chance against him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. There was a REASOn Grievous was the supreme commander: He'd cause massive atrocity, weaken the Jedi and serve as a scapegoat. You also missed the Dark Jedi: Vandalor, Saato, Vinoc and his brother, Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr, the Anzati Corran Horn's grandfather killed...

That's 17 people, three of which died the very first day(Mace killed the on Geonosis) and another one(Sidious) did nothing to help them. 17 is nothing next to the THOUSANDS that were around back then.

The real reason GG was the Supreme Commander was because what few Dark Jedi the CIS had were not very good next to the Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. No, you don't see anyone crying about Sidious taking new bodies. Why? Because I'd insist he'd face his opponent without a cheap toy to enhance his power, as apparently the Ancient Sith couldn't and didn't do much without their toys.

That doesn't matter. Like I have said, its a fight, anything goes.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. No, in the Han Solo trilogy, Xendor's rebellion is never given a date or time. WOTC filled in the blanks and dan Wallace did the rest.

Not in it's own, but in another Han Solo series we learn the age of the Republic and with that we can calculate the time-frame for Xendor's rebellion.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. How do we know this exactly? Do you know every single Sith Lord in the Old Empire? And I'm so certain the Ancient Sith had only ONE style of armor! Instantly disproved as Ragnos's armor looks nothing like KRessh's and Shar Dakhan's looks nothing like Horak Muul's. And Sadow died on yavin 4, which went undiscovered since Exar Kun. And Ludo Kressh was BLOWN UP IN SPACE. And in that Valley of the Dark Lords....there are how many tombs? SIX?! For 2000 years, you're telling me there were SIX Sith Lords when Ragnos ruling for a century was rare? And the Valley of the Dark Lords is shown to be much bigger than the single site in KOTOR in Clone wars Volume 4: Shadows and Light. You haven't misproved a single thing. In fact, your argument is "Well...maybe he was buried here somehwere else, on a secret planet, where he had a holocron, Sith style armor and headress and a tomb on Korriban!"
KJA wrong? He CREATED Korriban and the Ancient Sith. And repeat: Kressh was vaporized in space. How would he have a tomb exactly?

Are you so certain that non-Ancient Sith didn't were armor that doesn't look like Sith Armor?

Are you so certain that Ludo didn't have his tomb built before he died, but that his spirit didn't inhabit it?

Are you so certain that the much bigger part of the Valley of the Dark Lords wasn't added after for people like Darth Andeddu? Post-Bane people could still have over a dozen Dark Jedi students.

Sadow was undiscovered since Kun, but Revan is AFTER Kun.

YOU have failed to prove anything.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. How is being a bounty hunter scum? Unlike the honorable Mandalore the Ultimate, Jango never murdered women and children or comitted mass genocide. I'd take a small town cook over Stalin any day. By Jango's time, the Mandalorians had stopped 'leading wars for the glory of the Empire.' Times had changed and thanks to the Death Watch splintering because the Death Watch wanted to keep raiding and conquering.

Jango killed all sorts of people, not all of them innocent. The Death Watch was evil, not the Mandalorians of Revan's time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And for the record, the Death Watch shot a little girl dead-Jango's sister- to make sure she wouldn't talk. Why were the Mandos wiped out? Because Montross betrayed them and told the Jedi the Mandos were murdering women and children and he and the death watch created evidence. Jango led a war for Mandalorian honor: The war against the Death Watch and in true Mandalorian fashion, he avenged his people and slaughtered Montross and the death Watch.

The Death Watch was nothing like the Mandalorians of Revan's time, so please do not bring them up again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Answer me, Glentract: Why's it honorable to turn innocent people into dust particles? How's it honorable to butcher and murder the innocent? I don't give a damn what's right in their culture, plenty people have thought theur bloodthirsty ways were right. The Spartans approved of raping little boys, the Roman culture approved of rape and wiping out civilizations....are the Mandalorians exempt because they wear cool armor?

Sure, why not. Cool armor for all.

Of course I don't think that the Mandalorians from a long time ago were good for killing people, but they only killed them when it was required to protect themselves back in Revan's time. They wiped out cities only because the Republic kept their military bases in the middle of cities. It was the Republic's fault, not the Mandalorians. Hell, Canderous said he hated killing people.

Continued in next post...

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ghez Hokan said it himself: "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." And Jango never told Boba to shoot at Obi-wan, Boba took the initiative himself. And wait, didn't train New recruits? Jango practically doubled the size of the Mandos after Jaster died.

Key word, again. It doesn't say, "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians better then before." It doesn't say, "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians stronger then their ancestors." It says, Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." Not, "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians as great as they had ever been." But, "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." That doesn't mean that the Old Ones were as great and it doesn't mean that it made the Mandalorians as great as they had ever been. It is probably referring to how they were just before Durge Assassinated the Mandalore from 100 years before TPM.

Jango half trained Boba. Canderous trained dozens on Mandalorians in just a few years.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where are you getting these figures? 100,000 worlds? Hutt space is as big as Hapan Space which holds sixty worls. Unlike the Mandos of Canderous's time, Jango was adopted into the culture by Jaster Mereel after the Death Watch killed his family in front of him. he was raised on revenge and became one of the youngest commanders they'd ever known. By Boba's time, they're not interesting in 'fighting for the glory of the empire', they're interested in REAL honor, which doesn't involve genocide.

If you want to believe that the Hapan Empire is only 60 worlds, the volume-wise the ENTIRE Empire should consist of less then 500 planets. We know that the Empire had 6 million since it was stated that there are 12 million planets in the galaxy and that the Empire controlled half of them.

Canderous said that the Mandalorians were outnumbered 5 to 1. There were about a million planets in the Republic at that point according to Wedge and the New Essential Guides, so that's 200,000 Mandalorian worlds. Seriously, cut the crap.

They were intrested in civilian honor, not a warriors honor. We aren't bebating who is more honorable, btw, we're talking about who was more effective.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Why are the Jedi badmouthed in the PT era when the old Jedi made the same exact mistakes? This I really want to know...

Who said there were badmouthed ? The point was that nobody can say for sure that a group of people (in this case Sith) were extinct if there is a Galaxy for them to hide.

How could a schism in the Jedi Order not involve Dark Jedi / Sith ? That's like saying "There is a schism in the catholic church and no Christians are involved."

I do get the picture. Do you get it too ? In a war everything is allowed. Using technology to boost up your force powers might be unfair - but that technology is part of the people's power. Take it away and you can make matches like "X vs Y both naked, without using weapons and force powers" because using a lightsaber against less powerful weapons is unfair and using the force against none force users is also unfair.

You still don't get it. The "Great Shism" was leading to the start of the Sith Empire. This is what the TOTJ comics tell, this is what starwars.com tells. And it happend in "the early days of the Jedi" - yet the early days of the Jedi are 25,000 years before ANH. Obi-Wan in ANH tells us that the Jedi order existed for "thousand generations" and 1 generation is 25 years. So...what do you want to argue ? I'd like to have quotes from the Chronology telling that:

a) None of Xendor's followers survived
b) The Dark Jedi from the 100 Year Darkness were the first to arrive at the Sith Empire.

And yes...I'd like to see the link to the Q&A page since the Endnotes for the New Essential Chronology (on SW.com) tell exactly the same that I try to tell you.

Naga Sadow made Gav Daragon the "commander" of the fleet (which is not "second in command" wink

calvin44

Originally posted by Borbarad
Naga Sadow made Gav Daragon the "commander" of the fleet (which is not "second in command" wink

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Anzati, Volffe Karkko, and Zalem didn't require more then ten Jedi to defeat because they weren't major threats. The entire Order would gear up for war just because of them.

The Mandalorians sucked by those times. Durge had assassinated the Mandalore and the Mandalorians had gone into a civil war. Dooku destroyed them when Mace was a padawan.

It stated that Nomi handled her lightsaber like an master who had fought for years. That's ownage.

The Great Droid Revolution was when thousands of droids, many of the military droids and body guards were forced to attack living beings by an HK-01 Assassin Droid. There's not much more of a threat then that.

You're starting to annoy me with this crap. Proof that the Jedi in Revan's time weren't trained to fight? That they haven't fought in centuries? Have you read anything I have typed! The Great Droid Revolution which I have shown to have been a major threat was just 25 years before Revan was born. The Great Sith War was less then a decade before Revan was born. There was a Jedi Civil war within 300 years. Where the hell did you get the idea that they hadn't fought in centuries?

Wait, so first you say they haven't fought in centuries, then you say that they must be weak from being battered every week? Stop trying to double play points in your favor, it's not logical and only serves to piss people off. They weren't fighting every week, but they were training and preparing to fight every week, unlike PT Jedi, who were lax and trained to be diplomats.

WTF? What the hell makes you think that 'full scale war' means no Republic? What do you think the Clone Wars were? What do you think the Great Sith War and Great Hyperspace War were? Full scale wars! I don't know how you come up with this crap.

Proof that the Ganks were a threat? It was a labled a full scale war. That means that every planet in the Republic new about it and that the ENTIRE military was called into immediate action. That would not be had they not been a threat.

The Sith at Ruusan were very powerful. Bane could take Mace for sure. You fail to realize though that no one lived long enough to get much experince out of the New Sith War. Once you are training for war, you are training for war, it makes no difference on how long the war went on.

The Khoonda and Yichorri Wars were NOT massive. Less then 1% of the Order was involved in either one.

Nadd was described as amazingly open to the force. Nadd killed a Jedi Master as a apprentice. Nadd completely succumbed to the teachings of the Sith and became proficient in the use of dark side Sith magic.

He fought off the beast riders for decades, something that Mace probably could not have done. Prove that Mace, Yoda, or Revan would stand even a chance against him.

That's 17 people, three of which died the very first day(Mace killed the on Geonosis) and another one(Sidious) did nothing to help them. 17 is nothing next to the THOUSANDS that were around back then.

The real reason GG was the Supreme Commander was because what few Dark Jedi the CIS had were not very good next to the Jedi.

That doesn't matter. Like I have said, its a fight, anything goes.

Not in it's own, but in another Han Solo series we learn the age of the Republic and with that we can calculate the time-frame for Xendor's rebellion.

Are you so certain that non-Ancient Sith didn't were armor that doesn't look like Sith Armor?

Are you so certain that Ludo didn't have his tomb built before he died, but that his spirit didn't inhabit it?

Are you so certain that the much bigger part of the Valley of the Dark Lords wasn't added after for people like Darth Andeddu? Post-Bane people could still have over a dozen Dark Jedi students.

Sadow was undiscovered since Kun, but Revan is AFTER Kun.

YOU have failed to prove anything.

Jango killed all sorts of people, not all of them innocent. The Death Watch was evil, not the Mandalorians of Revan's time.

The Death Watch was nothing like the Mandalorians of Revan's time, so please do not bring them up again.

Sure, why not. Cool armor for all.

Of course I don't think that the Mandalorians from a long time ago were good for killing people, but they only killed them when it was required to protect themselves back in Revan's time. They wiped out cities only because the Republic kept their military bases in the middle of cities. It was the Republic's fault, not the Mandalorians. Hell, Canderous said he hated killing people.

Continued in next post...
1. Proof the Kanz, Ganks and droids required the entire Jedi order? The Yinchorri threatened the galaxy and Volfe Karkko was a danger to the entire order, and Zalem threatened the galaxy herself.

2. And the Mandalorians sucked in those times...proof? They gave the RuusanSith trouble and Durge has killed TWO Mandalores: One in JAster's time, and the one who murdered his trainer. And Durge was killing Jedi Ruusan AND Sith. The latter being around.....2500 BBY? And for the record: Nomi's skills were down instantly. It's called 'rage'

3. Revan's wars were in....3960-50 something. That's FORTY YEARS after the great Sith war, several centuries after the great droid rebellion, 300 years before the Schism for an Order that's likely STILL REBUILDING FROM NIHILIUS AND SION....great credentials.

4. Who's double playing? Until the Naddists, they hadn't faced a threat in centuries. After that, they lost half their order, then about....what, ninety percent of it to Sion and Nihilius? I don't think 'strength' falls under 'getting exterminated'

5. In the NEC, it said the ganks embarked on war...until promptly put down by the Jedi. The Kanz disorder lasted three centuries...until toppled by the Jedi. Never ANY hint they got involved until the end. And the Yinchorri wars threatened the Republic until Valorum had them blockaded

6. Nadd proficient in Sith magic? Sadow refused to teach him a damn bit of power? Killed a master as an apprentice? Yes....by ACCIDENT during a sparring match. Fought off the beast riders? You mean a newly formed rabble group that had nothing to stand up to his power...hell, it's a sign of Nadd's deficiency that he couldn't annihilate them.

7. Seventeen Dark Jedi is a lot more than Exar Kun had serving him. And in Labyrinth of Evil and the Grievous Visionaries story, it's revealed Grievous was commander because it was known he'd butcher a thousand worlds and would be an easy scapegoat at war's end for Tyranus and Sidious.

8. Fights have rules in this case. Otherwise we can just say 'so and so would rig the room and never show up'

9. Considering in the HS trilogy, we never learn when Xendor's rebellion was, LET ALONE a time frame...

10. Yes, I'm certain non-Ancients didn't have Dark Side armor. Yes, I'm sure Ludo Kressh's spirit didn't inhabit a tomb-how was it built exactly? he was VAPORIZED IN SPACE AND HIS PEOPLE SUBSEQUENTLY EXTERMINATED.
Yes, as KJA said that Ragnos was the last Sith lord buried on Korriban.
Fight the facts all you want.

11. The death watch were EXACTLY like the Mandalorians of revan's time: Cowardly butchers who massacred innocents. They split because the DW wanted to continue the old traditions of murder and mayhem. And name a single innocent person Jango murdered in cold blood, now.

12. WHAT?! You mean, the Republic decided to think the Mandalorians WEREN'T savage butchers of the innocent and would show some goddamn humanity by not SLAUGHTERING innocent people and were proven wrong?

12. Jango made the Mandalorians great again. After numerous millenia of butchery and psychosis.....and seriously, Canderous got the old Mandalorian remnants, most of whom were already warriors.

13. WHAT THE HELL?! The Hapan empire was canonically STATED in the Courtship of Princess Leia, in the very opening chapters to be 60 worlds! The Tetan system was seven worlds...Considering the Sith Empire was described as /tiny/ next to the Republic and-not only that- the Hutt empire around the size of the Hapans...
Where was this Empire figure stated now?

And Canderous was referring to soldier strength, your point? Doesn't mean he had a huge collection of worlds. In fact, in the old marvel comics, when the Mandalorian empire was first established, they have a small collection from the old Taungs...nothing close to 200,000 worlds-where the HELL are you getting these figures?-, including concord Dawn, Ordo, Mandalore, Shogun,Kutar....Mandalore the Indomitable even acknowledged the Mandalorian empire as small but strong. Outnumbered five to one doesn't refer to the galaxy and holdings, it refers to who there they were fighting and the soldier number

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Who said there were badmouthed ? The point was that nobody can say for sure that a group of people (in this case Sith) were extinct if there is a Galaxy for them to hide.

How could a schism in the Jedi Order not involve Dark Jedi / Sith ? That's like saying "There is a schism in the catholic church and no Christians are involved."

I do get the picture. Do you get it too ? In a war everything is allowed. Using technology to boost up your force powers might be unfair - but that technology is part of the people's power. Take it away and you can make matches like "X vs Y both naked, without using weapons and force powers" because using a lightsaber against less powerful weapons is unfair and using the force against none force users is also unfair.

You still don't get it. The "Great Shism" was leading to the start of the Sith Empire. This is what the TOTJ comics tell, this is what starwars.com tells. And it happend in "the early days of the Jedi" - yet the early days of the Jedi are 25,000 years before ANH. Obi-Wan in ANH tells us that the Jedi order existed for "thousand generations" and 1 generation is 25 years. So...what do you want to argue ? I'd like to have quotes from the Chronology telling that:

a) None of Xendor's followers survived
b) The Dark Jedi from the 100 Year Darkness were the first to arrive at the Sith Empire.

And yes...I'd like to see the link to the Q&A page since the Endnotes for the New Essential Chronology (on SW.com) tell exactly the same that I try to tell you.

Naga Sadow made Gav Daragon the "commander" of the fleet (which is not "second in command" wink

because he knew Republic space and you happen to miss the fact that they devasted dozens of worlds before getting stopped (the death and destruction they caused was the reason for Gav to betray Sadow). Since when is Naga Sadow = the entire ancient Sith Empire by the way ?
And uuuuuh...destiny itself was working against Sidious. Oh no. The bad uber powerful destiny. Sidious failed because of his own arrogance and not because of "destiny".
1. The Jedi were certainly ready to believe. Ooroo himself said noone in the Order believed him about the dangers of the sith.

2. A Dark Jedi is NOT a Sith. Xendor was a dark Jedi, Sora Bulq was a Dark Jedi...

3. Well, it's a good thing comparing someone's power and a one on one fight with rules down to the bare basics of power isn't a no-holds bar war

4. That early days thing was retconned. Period. Look up Leland Chee's QaA
And for the record: It does say the survivors of Corbos were the ones to discover the peaceful, primitive if powerful Sith Empire and became hailed as Gods, built the Sith Empire...it also says Xendor's rebellion was the first of many schisms-screwing the continuity over, I agree.

5. Sidious certainly did a lot more than any Sith before him, didn't he? And considering it was Anakin's destiny to kill him, along with the detail he was focused on torturing Luke out of pure rage....he screwed up, yes. At the very least, his second in command had been loyal for twenty years.
And Dozens of worlds? Where are you getting this? They attack THREE WORLDS and the fighting on Cinnagar tolds Gav it was wrong...they lost on every world, too. And Sadow made Gav Daragon his fleet commander why exactly? Along with his second in command for the invasion...that is either insanity or pure idiocy. JUST focusing on Sadow and Gav now. they caused reparable damage on Coruscant, Koros Major and Kirrek, that was it. The NEC even says they invaded those worlds, and no mentions of any other. They came out of hyperspace right near those groups of planets, too...And considering Naga Sadow is the only face we can actually PUT on the ancient Sith empire, as the comic focused on him as Dark Lord who screwed up in every concievable way...

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. The Jedi were certainly ready to believe. Ooroo himself said noone in the Order believed him about the dangers of the sith.

The Council didn't believe Qui-Gon in the PT era either untill they had one Sith Lord killed. Still I don't get what you want to tell me. At least they thrusted Odan-Urr when he was saying that the Sith are about to attack Coruscant.

That's arguing semantics. The point - as far as I remember - was that the Jedi at that time had to fight against Dark Side users, no matter if they were Dark Jedi or Sith.

If you want to judge somebody's power level you have to take everything in consideration that the person has. That includes weapons and other equipment. If you take away Boba Fett's armor and weapons he's not as powerful as with them, same goes for a Jedi without a lightsaber. Still we don't know how much power those "toys" add to the force user and that makes it impossible to figure out how much power they would have without them. Arguing that is nothing but a pointless waste of time.

The one you still have failed to provide a link to despite the fact that I asked you to do that ?

That is senseless. It contradicts the primary sources, starwars.com and any logic. You're basically saying that in a matter of 2,000 years the Sith filled an entire planets with graves for their Dark Lords and forgot everything about the Jedi. Considering the fact that they can live for centuries that happened in 10 or 15 generations.
Now that's like saying humans on earth would lose knowledge in the matter of 250 or 350 years and since I study history their are sources dating back 1,600 or more than 5,000 years. And the Sith Empire was just one culture developing further were on Earth "dominating" cultures were whiped out (Ancient Greeks, Roman Empire). What you assuming there is nothing but a historical impossibility especially when you consider the fact that the spirits of the Sith Lords remained present sometimes for thousands of years (as Sidious 5,000 years later talked to them).

As I allready said: Your bias against the ancient Sith is incredible.
Just a little analysis of the events of the Great Hyperspace War:

Right before it you have the Battle of Khar Delba where Sadow was attacked by the combined forces of Kressh, Dor Gal-ram and Horak-mul and although he won that fight this shows clearly that Sadow didn't even come close to take all forces of the Ancient Sith Empire into the war.

This is followed by the Battle of Coruscant. First off it's stupid to assume that only four Jedi were present at the entire planet. Those four shown are just the commanders of the defending forces - Coruscant, even back in that days was the heart of the Jedi Order. And Sadow's forces were basically stopped by the betrayal of Gav who shot Naga's meditation sphere thereby destroying all illusions down on the planet which of course strenghtened the confidence of the forces down on the planet who thought to have been outnumbered heavily by the Sith. You basically can't tell if that battle had gone the same way if that hadn't happened.

The Battle of Korus Major was fought by those troops that weren't needed at Coruscant. Of course it was somehow stupid by Sadow to give Gav the command over the invasion force. But still - when Gav is confronted by Jori you can see some nice fires in the background meaning that they had caused some destruction on the planet. At least Gav did flee from the sight leaving his forces without commander and of course they were defeated...

During the battle of Kirrek even Odan-Urr and his battle meditation weren't able to stop the onslaught of the Massasi. Here Ooroo turned the tide of the battle by sacrificing himself poisoning and thereby instantly killing a great part of the invading Sith forces. It was pretty clear that they couldn't have won that battle without that action.

Then you have the Battle of Primus Goluud where Gav betrayed Sadow a last time. Sadow didn't waste much time before throwing solar flares around with his ship and then they escaped to Korriban where you have two battles happen. The first between Sadow and Kressh and the second between Sadow and the Tetans who had followed him.

And now think about what would have happened if Sadow's meditation sphere wouldn't have been damaged and Sadow would have had access to the entire forces of the Ancient Sith Empire (which he clearly hadn't) and if he hadn't faced such a bad luck with Kirrek. Coruscant and Kirrek would have fallen and with a more competent commander I'm quite sure Koros Major would have been taken also. Also the Tetans could never have reached Korriban without Gav giving them the coordinates to the planet. So Sadow failed because of betrayal (first by the other Sith Lord, then by Gav) and bad luck (Ooroo attacking the Sith on Kirrek) and that hardly makes himself "screwing anything up". The only mistake he had made was thrusting Gav - the same way Sidious made the mistake to thrust Vader and later Luke which led to his downfall in ROTJ and DE. The little difference is that Sadow managed to survive his mistakes and was still around 600 years later...and it were Sadow's teachings to Nadd that led to the rebuilt of the Sith Order with the rule of the two after the battle of Ruusan. Don't forget that...

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Council didn't believe Qui-Gon in the PT era either untill they had one Sith Lord killed. Still I don't get what you want to tell me. At least they thrusted Odan-Urr when he was saying that the Sith are about to attack Coruscant.

That's arguing semantics. The point - as far as I remember - was that the Jedi at that time had to fight against Dark Side users, no matter if they were Dark Jedi or Sith.

If you want to judge somebody's power level you have to take everything in consideration that the person has. That includes weapons and other equipment. If you take away Boba Fett's armor and weapons he's not as powerful as with them, same goes for a Jedi without a lightsaber. Still we don't know how much power those "toys" add to the force user and that makes it impossible to figure out how much power they would have without them. Arguing that is nothing but a pointless waste of time.

The one you still have failed to provide a link to despite the fact that I asked you to do that ?

That is senseless. It contradicts the primary sources, starwars.com and any logic. You're basically saying that in a matter of 2,000 years the Sith filled an entire planets with graves for their Dark Lords and forgot everything about the Jedi. Considering the fact that they can live for centuries that happened in 10 or 15 generations.
Now that's like saying humans on earth would lose knowledge in the matter of 250 or 350 years and since I study history their are sources dating back 1,600 or more than 5,000 years. And the Sith Empire was just one culture developing further were on Earth "dominating" cultures were whiped out (Ancient Greeks, Roman Empire). What you assuming there is nothing but a historical impossibility especially when you consider the fact that the spirits of the Sith Lords remained present sometimes for thousands of years (as Sidious 5,000 years later talked to them).

As I allready said: Your bias against the ancient Sith is incredible.
Just a little analysis of the events of the Great Hyperspace War:

Right before it you have the Battle of Khar Delba where Sadow was attacked by the combined forces of Kressh, Dor Gal-ram and Horak-mul and although he won that fight this shows clearly that Sadow didn't even come close to take all forces of the Ancient Sith Empire into the war.

This is followed by the Battle of Coruscant. First off it's stupid to assume that only four Jedi were present at the entire planet. Those four shown are just the commanders of the defending forces - Coruscant, even back in that days was the heart of the Jedi Order. And Sadow's forces were basically stopped by the betrayal of Gav who shot Naga's meditation sphere thereby destroying all illusions down on the planet which of course strenghtened the confidence of the forces down on the planet who thought to have been outnumbered heavily by the Sith. You basically can't tell if that battle had gone the same way if that hadn't happened.

The Battle of Korus Major was fought by those troops that weren't needed at Coruscant. Of course it was somehow stupid by Sadow to give Gav the command over the invasion force. But still - when Gav is confronted by Jori you can see some nice fires in the background meaning that they had caused some destruction on the planet. At least Gav did flee from the sight leaving his forces without commander and of course they were defeated...

During the battle of Kirrek even Odan-Urr and his battle meditation weren't able to stop the onslaught of the Massasi. Here Ooroo turned the tide of the battle by sacrificing himself poisoning and thereby instantly killing a great part of the invading Sith forces. It was pretty clear that they couldn't have won that battle without that action.

Then you have the Battle of Primus Goluud where Gav betrayed Sadow a last time. Sadow didn't waste much time before throwing solar flares around with his ship and then they escaped to Korriban where you have two battles happen. The first between Sadow and Kressh and the second between Sadow and the Tetans who had followed him.

And now think about what would have happened if Sadow's meditation sphere wouldn't have been damaged and Sadow would have had access to the entire forces of the Ancient Sith Empire (which he clearly hadn't) and if he hadn't faced such a bad luck with Kirrek. Coruscant and Kirrek would have fallen and with a more competent commander I'm quite sure Koros Major would have been taken also. Also the Tetans could never have reached Korriban without Gav giving them the coordinates to the planet. So Sadow failed because of betrayal (first by the other Sith Lord, then by Gav) and bad luck (Ooroo attacking the Sith on Kirrek) and that hardly makes himself "screwing anything up". The only mistake he had made was thrusting Gav - the same way Sidious made the mistake to thrust Vader and later Luke which led to his downfall in ROTJ and DE. The little difference is that Sadow managed to survive his mistakes and was still around 600 years later...and it were Sadow's teachings to Nadd that led to the rebuilt of the Sith Order with the rule of the two after the battle of Ruusan. Don't forget that...

1. They totally disregarded Ooroo and Odan until Jori Daragon arrived.

2. Yoda's time had to fight against Dark Jedi, too. Hell, Yoda put down an entire rebellion of them from Bpfassh

3. So, stop claiming the Ancient Sith were 'strong enough to tear the cores out of stars' because they need their toys for it. IF you claim you can punch through a brick wall, do it without a gauntlet.

4. How...many times....do I have to post this damn thing?!
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=222689&start=615#12367041
There you go, ask him yourself if you're so inclined.

5. The Ancient Sith spirits remained on Korriban. The point is, you can throw wahatvever logical impossibilities in it you want, but the point remains: Ragnos's empire was 2000 years old, period. 7000 BBY to 5000 BBY, the chronology directly states it. It contradicts nothing but what was retconned.

6. you miss where Sadow hardly lifted a finger against Ludo and his men: Horak and Dol were killed when their crews decided they were loyal to Naga and drove Kressh away. Not only that, Ludo was attacking the wrong location, leaving himself wide open

7. The Sith weren't gaining ground even BEFORE Gav-who you forgot to note Sadow put in charge of his fleet- fired on him...and those four Jedi are all we see arriving. We're not shown a single other knight.

8. The devastation was from the Sith's initial landing and Koros Major was a major location: Empress Teta's homeworld, she being the second strongest power behind the Republic. They were beaten here without any sort of Jedi on world and with Jori Daragon killing a whole Massassi squad.
9. They'd have won without Ooroo's sacrifice is like saying saying the Executor wouldn't have been destroyed without Arvel Crynyd, or without Obi-wan's sacrifice Luke would've died....it shows Naga underestimating the heroism of the Jedi. And the Sith have no excuse for having their lines broken by a group of ex-cons.

10. Gav died right off and Sadow never 'threw stars around'...he used his ship to trigger the explosion. The first battle between Kressh and Sadow lasted, how long....minutes? and that's because a ship slammed into Kressh's, because the moron was completely undefended in the fleet....not only that, Teta's forces devastated Sadow's fleet instantly.

11. Sadow had access to the entirety of the sith empire except Ludo's small group. And with a competent commander? A competent commander, like Ragnos, knew even with their combined strength they weren't winning. Ragnos said Sadow's folly would ruin the golden age. And you'll notice Sadow hardly surived his errors. He was a crushed, broken man who never regained his glory and was struck down by an angry kid. And Nadd didn't have a thing to do with the teachings of the order...he never told Kun about him: What Kun knew, he learned for himself on Korriban....he never even listened to Nadd till he found Sadow's gauntlet....and Nadd died minutes later.
The Sith were outnumbered and outclassed. They were beaten tactically and by their own errors.
Ludo's betrayal? That's thanks to Naga's folly
Ooroo's sacrifice? That's not bad luck, that's Jedi heroism
Sadow's illusions? Gav Daragon, a kid he barely knows as his number 2

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Yoda's time had to fight against Dark Jedi, too. Hell, Yoda put down an entire rebellion of them from Bpfassh

Well...in times of Kotor alone they had the Mandalorian Wars, the Sith War and the Jedi Civil War in 15 years. So still the KotoR people have more actual battle experience.

The point is they have done it. It doesn't matter if they used toys or not since they always have that toys present. So it's useless to think about them without having the toys. And even if you want to do that - since you don't know how much those toys boost their power up you will never come to any conclusion.

Nice link. Unfortunatelly it's just a link to a VIP thread and you don't think that I will go through 91 pages before I find what you claim to be there, do you ? Because it's not on the page that you linked, where Mr. Chee is just talking about KotoR 2...

Since you have again failed to provide a link to Mr. Chee saying that something is "retconned" by the Chronology the contradiction against SW.com still remains. Period.

He still didn't have control over their forces...

Yeah. Because we saw no other arriving to a planet which happens to be the heart of the Jedi Order their can't be others. So in times of the CW cartoons the people we saw defending Coruscant are the only people present (Yoda, Mace, the Jedi commando that tried to protect Sidious) and the other people were on vacation on the other side of the Galaxy, right ?

She killed Gav's bodyguards using a lightsaber and they hadn't weapons against that and were surprised by the attack. Seeing that Odon Urr had given that lightsaber to Jori and she was force sensitive that's basically like Massasi vs a Jedi (and we've seen that people with force sensitivity and a lightsaber can fight quite well - Nomi Sunrider was descriped as "handling the saber like a master" when she used it first. And still the Sith troops were left without a commander to fight the Tetans...

That's so great. The Sith were fighting the defenders back and even battle meditation wasn't enough to stop them - so what should have stopped them if no Jedi in a tank filled with deadly toxins would have been present, eh ? Comparing that to other situations is stupid. And the Sith have no excuse for being shocked after a single attack had wiped out a massive amounts of their army ? Yeah, right. And Sadow didn't underestimate the Jedi heroism he simply didn't know that one of them (not with his power but with his tank full of toxic material) would be present and able to destroy his forces.
How many times do you think that can happen ?

Without Gav damaging the meditation sphere at Coruscant and without him submitting the coordinates of Korriban to the Tetan's that battle wouldn't have happend like that.

Ludo's small group of people which contained enough Sith Lords to declare him the Dark Lord which must have been more than half of what was left of the Council ? Yeah...right...

Ragnos estimated that because the Jedi / Republic had triumphed over his ancestors. And it's nice how you simply ignore the point of betrayal...

Wow. That's sure more impressive than getting killed by a crippled force user, getting killed again because losing the control over your own powers and getting shot in the back like your favourite all powerful Sidious did it...

Uuuh...check the sources and you'll figure out that Darth Bane got some nice ideas (including the rule of two) from Nadd's tomb.

And Sidious was destroyed while outnumbering and outclassing his enemies. So Ancient Sith > Sidious. Thanks
Ludo's betrayal was thanks to Ludo's own will and not thanks to Naga's folly or is Sidious responsible for Vader betraying him ?
Ooroo's sacrifice was bad luck becaus: How many Jedi you will find living in a tank filled with material that is toxic enough to instakill a great part of an invading army ?
And well...Sadow's illusions were gone, no matter why and with his mediation sphere there was one of his nice little toys gone.

Captain REX

As great a debate as this is...did this somehow come from Revan vs. Mace & Mundi?

Dark Aristokrat

Originally posted by Captain REX
As great a debate as this is...did this somehow come from Revan vs. Mace & Mundi?

Yeah, it did. The usual sidetrack. Since in Versus characters are foten compared, it's not unusual to have to defend your comparisons.

Nilky

Mundi could take both of them yes

Dark Aristokrat

Wtf?

Captain REX

Um, no, he could not?

Nilky

He could let mace & revan fight it out then kill the weakened winner smart

Captain REX

I highly doubt that.

Nilky

You Are Doubtful, I am Sure Happy Dance

Captain REX

Good job, n00b.

Admiral Akbar

eek

Dark Aristokrat

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6855/505stopspam1wd.jpg

calvin44

Originally posted by Nilky
rolling on floor laughing

2guns

General Envy

Originally posted by Nilky
rolling on floor laughing

I sense much idiocy in you, Nilky. You have a gun, you have the ability to commit suicide, but you don't use them

Nilky

Shoot for all i care, you'll never take me alive!!!!

Happy Dance

Nilky

I have no gun

General Envy

Originally posted by Nilky
Shoot for all i care, you'll never take me alive!!!!

Happy Dance

...http://home.nc.rr.com/inbedwithhomer/STFU%20vader.gif

calvin44

Originally posted by Nilky
Shoot for all i care, you'll never take me alive!!!!

Happy Dance

Did we say alive?...let me correct that for you...

calvin44

Do a sock check rex, he might be Gryn Jabar.

Captain REX

This thread is temporarily closed until Nilky has left, and then we can resume the debate.

Captain REX

Thread reopened now that the disruption has been removed.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5745715#post5745715

Please resume from there.

Dark Aristokrat

Phew. Thanks, Rex.

Lightsnake

Thanks indeed, mate

Lightsnake

1.The Sith war was forty years before the Mando wars and none of theJedi in the Jedi Civil War had participated in the Sith War. Two wars in the timeframe is more appropiate, as opposed to the Stark Hyperspace, yinchorri conflict and Bpfassh uprising and the Clone Wars within fifteen years.

2. If they COULD do it without their toys, they would

3. Y'know something? Sign up on SW.com and ask him yourself. I gave you the link and if you want to be lazy and not accept it, fine. However, don't try to argue it's not official. I'm tired of providing the same thing again and again: You want to disprove me? Ask the man yourself

4. After Horak and Dol died, the fight went out of their forces and Ludo was driven off...not to mention, Ludo attacked the wrong location.

5. Except we've SEEN other Jedi in numerous areas during the Clone Wars. When during battle planning, when Memit is briefing the Jedi, you'd think it'd help if there were mroe than five of them there to receive their plans...

6. What the hell do you mean the Massassi didn't have weapons? They'd just KILLED Aarba and were finishing with his drids. Jori had never fought anyone before so it was...battle hardened warriors vs. a kid with a saber who'd never seen combat before. There is NO exuse for a squad of Massassi dying like that, none.

7. Did Sadow BOTHER to learn anything about his enemies ebfore he attacked? And the diea that any Jedi could and would give his life to stem the flow of the Sith ios not far fetched...again, the Sith forces lost to a ragtrag group of PRISONERS.
8. You mean 'If Sadow hadn't decided to put Gav in a command position and send him to his attacked home city' etc etc etc....is Sadow the victim opf circumstance or did he just make massive blunders?

9. You mean the 'self declared dark Lord Ludo Kressh who was beaten by a devastated fleet?" Wouldn't be hard to become Dark Lord when everyone else is off on a war...

10. Yes, yes it's so terrible losing to the Chosen One destined to kill you, having control of your power wrenched away by two of the family destined to destroy you and choosing to get shot in the back to possess someone when your body dies...

11. Bane ahd he idea of the Rule of Two in Jedi vs. Sith...that's long before he visits Onderon.

12. Sidious at least bothered to have a PLAN instead of saying "OOOH, Republic, let's go blow it up!" And Ludo said it himself: Naga was so disgustingly overconfident he never bothered to check if Ludo's ship had any PEOPLE aboard! It was an empty decoy and for an empire that can read lifesigns aboard a ship... And once again...if Sadow'd bothered to bit a bit of research against his enemies and maybe decide the idea of someone sacrificing his life wasn't far fetched...

overlord

Originally posted by calvin44
Do a sock check rex, he might be Gryn Jabar. That's pure blasphemy, dude. Don't ever compare spamming to uber l33t h4X0r speech.

calvin44

Originally posted by overlord
That's pure blasphemy, dude. Don't ever compare spamming to uber l33t h4X0r speech.
Wha?

Lightsnake

1. Where're Thon? Nomi Sunrider? Who's this 'Revan' and 'Bastila Shan?' Or Vandar and Vrook? They weren't prevalent in TOTJ. The Great Sith War consisted of...few battles truly involving the Jedi. Thirty three years was still quite a time before Revan's generation

2. You'd think consistently nearly being exterminated would WEAKEN the Order....Exar Kun's war lasted...a week maybe. Freedon Nadd rebellion lasted a day're two. It took a bit for the Jedi to get involved in the Mando war....and Revan's war nearly destroyed the Jedi. And the Naddist revolt involved a very small amount of the Order

3. Yinchorri War, Volfe Karkko's uprising....I'd like to know where you got the idea the Bpfassh rebellion was short, too...no figure's been given. And a year is still greater than the Great Hyperspace War and the Freedon Nadd Uprising put together.

4. Show me where the Ancoents used force choke or lightning, or did ANYTHING without their toys. And pardon me if I disbelieve Kreia 'learned that from the Ancient Sith'....what's backing that up exactly? Not only that, Kreia's a liar and talking about a far off time.

5. It'd take, what, a minute of your time to post on SW.com, asking Leland for confirmation of the error or retcon? I'd expect you to provide the quote and/or page number from Shatterpoint, btw.

6. Were any Jedi in TFotSE even MENTIONED to be on Coruscant? We SAW them arrived and Memit seemed relieved to see the ones he did. During that little thing in LoE, other Jedi were mentioned more than a bit.

7. You'll notice Nomi simply attacked and caught the murderers off guard, she didn't ignite the thing, scream or a full panel how Gav wasn't her brother and Odan gave her the lightsaber for a reason and THEN attack. I'd expect ANY warrior worth his salt to lose his shcok after a second at most. Otherwise, that's a lousy group of warriors bred to kill, especially when Sith weapons were supposed to match up to sabers....hell, Satal Keto fought Ulic with a Sith Sword.

8. Most of the Sith died in the attack? So the idea that 'still more invaders' came and were deadlocked with Kirrek didn't exist? If these Sith are supposedly worth a billion of their enemies...and Ooroo's attack wiped out a greater part of their forces? Proof there? Is it farfetched ANY Jedi would give his life for the greater good? Slam a ship into the center of your forces, cut his way through, blow himself up?....otherwise, you could simply do RESEARCH on your enemies. And what BATTLE MEDITATION? Odan-Urr was wracked in grief, tending to the dying Ooroo

9. You mean it wouldn't be a bad idea to NOT put an untrained boy as your SECOND IN COMMAND and make sure that he sees his own city that he's told you he loves being attacked and destroyed? And THREE Sith Lords didn't follow him on the council. He had the support of....what, 15 more? Could he do some DAMN RESEARCH on the Jedi he's facing? Could he make sure a dumb kid like Gav NOT have a position of command, stayed away from the battle? Could he check for LIFE SIGNS aboard Kressh's ship before attacking it? Something he did to Starbreaker twelve before vaporizing it?

10. And considering, The comic itself said-and I quote- "Only a few of Naga Sadow's ships make it back to the Sith Empire....all that remains of a force meant to challenge the galaxy." I could describe what Naga is doing on that page, too.

11. You mean when everything had gone his way for twenty years and his apprentice had constantly proved 100 percent trustworthy? And considering Kreia sees the future, not to mention ragnos never said a THING about Kun's destiny be to rule the Empire, just that he'd revived the Sith...

12. And Sidious nearly killed Yoda. And Sidious killed Mace. And Sidious was hardly bothered about Maul dying, he knew PAdme'd go back already. And considering Sidious had Sypho-Dias ORDER the clone army and Tyranus find Jango Fett...And somehow Anakin getting toasted is Sidious's fault? Let ALONE Maul's death? He was also only mildly irritated by the Death Star's passing. He came back and had the Rebels smashed quite a bit. And considering Anakin'd been stunted and Luke being a kid and him knowing Vader'd potentially betray him and knowing he was practically immortal AND having loyal servitude for twenty years....

13. Ahh, here we go....why don'y YOU send a group into unfamiliar territory facing unheard of opponents who know the forests like the back of their own hand. Unless Sidious was personally leading those attacks... And unless sadow had twenty years of loyalty from Daragon....

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Where're Thon? Nomi Sunrider? Who's this 'Revan' and 'Bastila Shan?' Or Vandar and Vrook? They weren't prevalent in TOTJ. The Great Sith War consisted of...few battles truly involving the Jedi. Thirty three years was still quite a time before Revan's generation

Not enough for somebody of Vandar's species to become a council member and not enough for having Vrook not present at that time. And please stop that "Oh. I didn't have seen it and therefore it didn't happen" stuff when it totally contradicts logic.
- Vandar can be centuries old but wasn't present in Exar Kun's time
- Vrook looks like he's well in his 50s or even 60s but wasn't present at Kun's time ?
- same goes for Kreia...

Exar Kun's war lasted a week ? Aha...lol. It took a bit of Jedi to get involved in the Mandelorian wars ? No. Those who followed Revan went there with the Republics troops. Revan's war nearly destroyed the Jedi order ? Ah...that's why we have Dantooine still standing and Coruscant to get attacked by Nihilus and Sion later because Revan's war nearly destroyed the order...
Can you please tell me how the loss of a great amount of force users would lead to a stronger Order ?

Yeah. No numbers are given but you of course know that the Bpfassh rebellion happening on - a single planet - with force users involved that Yoda could destroy without even using his lightsaber must have been months of fighting. Logic ?

If you don't know anything don't try to argue with me. Kun in form of his spirits toasted Gantoris, knocked Dorssk-81 out without problems and before getting destroyed he force choked all of Luke's students at once. I wonder were he could have worn toys being the spirit he were.
And what's backing up that Kreia learned it from the Ancients ? I guess you've simply missed the fact that she told on numerous ocassions that all of that stuff was coming from Malachor V, a planet which was a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge.
And yes...Kreia was obviously lieing about the power of the ancient Sith and because she know that all of them were weak idiots that could do nothing but leave knowledge back teaching her how to kill 3 Jedi Council members at once without any problem she just faked her admiration for them, because...
Oh...she didn't have any motive to lie there or did she ?

And I'd expect you to provide an exact link if you want to show me something and not a random link to a 91-page-long random thread.

Just in small steps for you: You have a Jedi temple standing on Coruscant, you know that the Jedi were at least associated to the Republic. You know that Coruscant even back then was the capital world of the Republic. Now you want to tell me that not a single Jedi was present there before some other arrived because...
What was the cause exactly for a Jedi Temple just standing around on Coruscant with not a single Jedi in it ? And what was the cause for not one Jedi being present on a planet which is the heart of the governing body the Jedi were protecting ?

Let's see:
http://www.theforce.net/timetales/tt1-1/tfotse9.jpg

What comic did you read exactly, huh ?
She says Gav is not her brother while already igniting the lightsaber, gives another sentence than the Massasi try to attack her and she simply cuts through their weapons as you can see. Yeah - Sith Swords can withstand lightsaber hits - do you know the difference between Sith and Massassi or do I have to explain that ? And I was sure that you would be able to tell the difference between a "sword" and that nice weapons the Massassi are carrying.
And by the way: Is that the scene were Jori is cutting down an entire squad of Massassi warriors pwning them with the lightsaber when she does a single strike against which the Massassi did clearly have no protection as we all can see and it were just two of them present ? Any more lie...er...personal interpretation you want to give us, Lightsnake ?

Do I really have to tell you the difference between "Massassi Warrior" and "Sith Lord" ? That's getting ridiculous. The Massassi (notice not Sith) attacked a single location and Ooroo dropped a tank with cyanogen (and himself) into them. Cyanogen is a colourless gas, and when breathed in it's reduced to cyanide which tends to kill people quite fast. Average 4,3 milligram per kg of weight is deadly meaning that 5 gram at max were enough to kill every person on that battlefield and Ooroo unleashed an entire tank filled with it on them. I wonder how he could have managed not to kill a great part of the invasion force with it.

How many ways can you make up how a single Jedi sacrificing himself can destroy thousands in a ground battle ? That could have easily avoided by research, eh ? "Excuse me. Is that a Jedi in that tank ?" "Yes." "Why is he in there ?" "Oh...he can only breath some stuff that would kill all other lifeforms around him." "Ah...so he might sacrifice himself and unleash that stuff killing an entire army..."
ROFL. And Odan Urr did use battle meditation before Ooroo's sacrifice and despite of that the Massassi were still winning, if you missed that also...

Oh. You think it's as stupid at putting a damn boy in a suit as second in command making him watch you torturing his son while turning his back on him with a reactor shaft in front of you ?
When Sadow's trick (the faked Republic attack) was discovered he had much less friends that he had before and that was a 50 / 50 situation between him and Kressh.
Research on the Jedi ? How ? Sending Massassi there to spy on them or go yourself ? Leaving Gav behind and attacking without knowing where he has to go ? Nice idea.

And where does it say "and that was the entire force of the Ancient Sith Empire" ? Sadow had still enough ships to create a nice blockade out of them which the Tetans couldn't pass...

Borbarad

Allright...Vader must have been the first "100 % trustworthy" Sith Lord in the universe and of course you couldn't have forseen that somebody who sacrificed the entire Jedi order for the love to his wife wouldn't kick your damn ass across the place when you try to touch his son...

Oh yes. You mean when Yoda, standing at the outside of the pod defeated Sidious in a force battle but was falling down because having the worse position ?

Which had of course nothing to do with Anakin coming in and saving his ass by cutting Mace's lightsaber arm off.

Yeah. I wouldn't be hardly bothered too if I trained somebody for some decades and he just dies...

Sidious didn't have the plan to create a clone army until Sypho-Dyas showed up with his foresight about dark times. Who trained Maul again and made him that arrogant ? Who did sent Anakin to Karmino thinking that all Jedi are death ?
I loved his "pratically immortality" - of course without the body rotting away while walking around and the clone madness and so on...

And again Mr. Double Standart aka Lightsnake has done it. So Sadow should have done some research on the Jedi but Sidious didn't have to do research on a planet he built the protection for his Death Star on ? So spying on Jedi is easier than doing research on a bunch of primitive Teddybears ? And Sadow was leading one attack personally which was the battle of Coruscant and were he was betrayed. And where had Sidious twenty years of loyality from Anakin ? He made him "second in command" in ROTS less then an hour after Anakin did want to kill him and a few hours later the thing that bound Anakin to Sidious (Padme) was also gone.
In the same moment Sidious got to know about Luke he should have either killed Luke or Vader. How could he even think that Vader who sacrificed everything for Padme wouldn't sacrifice everything again for Padme's child - his son ?

Captain REX

Syfo-Dias, not Sypho. whistle

And there's my contribution...

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Proof the Kanz, Ganks and droids required the entire Jedi order? The Yinchorri threatened the galaxy and Volfe Karkko was a danger to the entire order, and Zalem threatened the galaxy herself.

It was called a full-scale war. That means everyone was involved. If you can't understand that, we have nothing less to talk about, you're a helpless moron. Zalem and Volfe were threats, but they weren't military threats and we know that Zalem only required 1 or 2 Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. And the Mandalorians sucked in those times...proof? They gave the RuusanSith trouble and Durge has killed TWO Mandalores: One in JAster's time, and the one who murdered his trainer. And Durge was killing Jedi Ruusan AND Sith. The latter being around.....2500 BBY? And for the record: Nomi's skills were down instantly. It's called 'rage'

This paragraph is full of unfounded BS. Moving on...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Revan's wars were in....3960-50 something. That's FORTY YEARS after the great Sith war, several centuries after the great droid rebellion, 300 years before the Schism for an Order that's likely STILL REBUILDING FROM NIHILIUS AND SION....great credentials.

WTF? Do you understand a timeline at all? Go look at one for a few minutes please. Revan was trained only a few years after the Great Sith War. Trained, not lived.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Who's double playing? Until the Naddists, they hadn't faced a threat in centuries. After that, they lost half their order, then about....what, ninety percent of it to Sion and Nihilius? I don't think 'strength' falls under 'getting exterminated'

Go look at a timeline. You have everything out of order. Revan was trained just after the Great Sith War. That was a threat.

Oh, and note that 99.99% of the Order was killed during Mace's time. Talk about getting extreminated.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. In the NEC, it said the ganks embarked on war...until promptly put down by the Jedi. The Kanz disorder lasted three centuries...until toppled by the Jedi. Never ANY hint they got involved until the end. And the Yinchorri wars threatened the Republic until Valorum had them blockaded

Either you have a reading disorder or are lying. 'promptly' isn't in there anywhere. Seeing as the Jedi were the primary defense for the Republic saying that they didn't fight until the end is downright stupid.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Nadd proficient in Sith magic? Sadow refused to teach him a damn bit of power? Killed a master as an apprentice? Yes....by ACCIDENT during a sparring match. Fought off the beast riders? You mean a newly formed rabble group that had nothing to stand up to his power...hell, it's a sign of Nadd's deficiency that he couldn't annihilate them.

Nadd helped Jedi Master's captive even as a spirit and had many Sith Amulets. Go look over all the FACTS again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Seventeen Dark Jedi is a lot more than Exar Kun had serving him. And in Labyrinth of Evil and the Grievous Visionaries story, it's revealed Grievous was commander because it was known he'd butcher a thousand worlds and would be an easy scapegoat at war's end for Tyranus and Sidious.

17 Dark Jedi compared to 5,000 Dark Jedi in the 3rd Great Jedi Schism. BTW, it's quality, not quantity. Exar or Ulic could pwn all 17 of the CIS's Dark Jedi with ease.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Fights have rules in this case. Otherwise we can just say 'so and so would rig the room and never show up'

We can say that, but people will consider you a moron. Having their Amulets is directly part of their power.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
9. Considering in the HS trilogy, we never learn when Xendor's rebellion was, LET ALONE a time frame...

Considering that's not the only source it doesn't matter...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
10. Yes, I'm certain non-Ancients didn't have Dark Side armor. Yes, I'm sure Ludo Kressh's spirit didn't inhabit a tomb-how was it built exactly? he was VAPORIZED IN SPACE AND HIS PEOPLE SUBSEQUENTLY EXTERMINATED.
Yes, as KJA said that Ragnos was the last Sith lord buried on Korriban.
Fight the facts all you want.

I don't care if you're certain. Prove up.

When did KJA say this? Back it up and cut the BS because in KOTOR 1 and 2 we see their tombs.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
11. The death watch were EXACTLY like the Mandalorians of revan's time: Cowardly butchers who massacred innocents. They split because the DW wanted to continue the old traditions of murder and mayhem. And name a single innocent person Jango murdered in cold blood, now.

Any proof of that? No? That's what I thought.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
12. WHAT?! You mean, the Republic decided to think the Mandalorians WEREN'T savage butchers of the innocent and would show some goddamn humanity by not SLAUGHTERING innocent people and were proven wrong?

The Republic put them there, it's their fault. I don't see you defending all of the Nazi's who were killed who never actually killed an innocent.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
12. Jango made the Mandalorians great again. After numerous millenia of butchery and psychosis.....and seriously, Canderous got the old Mandalorian remnants, most of whom were already warriors.

Jango made them nothing. He ended up being the one who let them die. It was other's, like Boba, who made them great again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
13. WHAT THE HELL?! The Hapan empire was canonically STATED in the Courtship of Princess Leia, in the very opening chapters to be 60 worlds! The Tetan system was seven worlds...Considering the Sith Empire was described as /tiny/ next to the Republic and-not only that- the Hutt empire around the size of the Hapans...
Where was this Empire figure stated now?

It has 63 ruling worlds, but considering it was able to stave off the 6 million planet Empire and the had people who wore hairpieces worth more then five planets(stated in 'Darkest Knight', they have tens of thousands of other planets.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Canderous was referring to soldier strength, your point? Doesn't mean he had a huge collection of worlds. In fact, in the old marvel comics, when the Mandalorian empire was first established, they have a small collection from the old Taungs...nothing close to 200,000 worlds-where the HELL are you getting these figures?-, including concord Dawn, Ordo, Mandalore, Shogun,Kutar....Mandalore the Indomitable even acknowledged the Mandalorian empire as small but strong. Outnumbered five to one doesn't refer to the galaxy and holdings, it refers to who there they were fighting and the soldier number

They were outnumbered 5 - 1. The Republic had 1 million planets. 200,000 is a fifth of that. They were also more powerful then the Hutt's. The Hutt's had over a hundred thousand planets. Stop denying the facts.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Not enough for somebody of Vandar's species to become a council member and not enough for having Vrook not present at that time. And please stop that "Oh. I didn't have seen it and therefore it didn't happen" stuff when it totally contradicts logic.
- Vandar can be centuries old but wasn't present in Exar Kun's time
- Vrook looks like he's well in his 50s or even 60s but wasn't present at Kun's time ?
- same goes for Kreia...

Exar Kun's war lasted a week ? Aha...lol. It took a bit of Jedi to get involved in the Mandelorian wars ? No. Those who followed Revan went there with the Republics troops. Revan's war nearly destroyed the Jedi order ? Ah...that's why we have Dantooine still standing and Coruscant to get attacked by Nihilus and Sion later because Revan's war nearly destroyed the order...
Can you please tell me how the loss of a great amount of force users would lead to a stronger Order ?

Yeah. No numbers are given but you of course know that the Bpfassh rebellion happening on - a single planet - with force users involved that Yoda could destroy without even using his lightsaber must have been months of fighting. Logic ?

If you don't know anything don't try to argue with me. Kun in form of his spirits toasted Gantoris, knocked Dorssk-81 out without problems and before getting destroyed he force choked all of Luke's students at once. I wonder were he could have worn toys being the spirit he were.
And what's backing up that Kreia learned it from the Ancients ? I guess you've simply missed the fact that she told on numerous ocassions that all of that stuff was coming from Malachor V, a planet which was a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge.
And yes...Kreia was obviously lieing about the power of the ancient Sith and because she know that all of them were weak idiots that could do nothing but leave knowledge back teaching her how to kill 3 Jedi Council members at once without any problem she just faked her admiration for them, because...
Oh...she didn't have any motive to lie there or did she ?

And I'd expect you to provide an exact link if you want to show me something and not a random link to a 91-page-long random thread.

Just in small steps for you: You have a Jedi temple standing on Coruscant, you know that the Jedi were at least associated to the Republic. You know that Coruscant even back then was the capital world of the Republic. Now you want to tell me that not a single Jedi was present there before some other arrived because...
What was the cause exactly for a Jedi Temple just standing around on Coruscant with not a single Jedi in it ? And what was the cause for not one Jedi being present on a planet which is the heart of the governing body the Jedi were protecting ?

Let's see:
http://www.theforce.net/timetales/tt1-1/tfotse9.jpg

What comic did you read exactly, huh ?
She says Gav is not her brother while already igniting the lightsaber, gives another sentence than the Massasi try to attack her and she simply cuts through their weapons as you can see. Yeah - Sith Swords can withstand lightsaber hits - do you know the difference between Sith and Massassi or do I have to explain that ? And I was sure that you would be able to tell the difference between a "sword" and that nice weapons the Massassi are carrying.
And by the way: Is that the scene were Jori is cutting down an entire squad of Massassi warriors pwning them with the lightsaber when she does a single strike against which the Massassi did clearly have no protection as we all can see and it were just two of them present ? Any more lie...er...personal interpretation you want to give us, Lightsnake ?

Do I really have to tell you the difference between "Massassi Warrior" and "Sith Lord" ? That's getting ridiculous. The Massassi (notice not Sith) attacked a single location and Ooroo dropped a tank with cyanogen (and himself) into them. Cyanogen is a colourless gas, and when breathed in it's reduced to cyanide which tends to kill people quite fast. Average 4,3 milligram per kg of weight is deadly meaning that 5 gram at max were enough to kill every person on that battlefield and Ooroo unleashed an entire tank filled with it on them. I wonder how he could have managed not to kill a great part of the invasion force with it.

How many ways can you make up how a single Jedi sacrificing himself can destroy thousands in a ground battle ? That could have easily avoided by research, eh ? "Excuse me. Is that a Jedi in that tank ?" "Yes." "Why is he in there ?" "Oh...he can only breath some stuff that would kill all other lifeforms around him." "Ah...so he might sacrifice himself and unleash that stuff killing an entire army..."
ROFL. And Odan Urr did use battle meditation before Ooroo's sacrifice and despite of that the Massassi were still winning, if you missed that also...

Oh. You think it's as stupid at putting a damn boy in a suit as second in command making him watch you torturing his son while turning his back on him with a reactor shaft in front of you ?
When Sadow's trick (the faked Republic attack) was discovered he had much less friends that he had before and that was a 50 / 50 situation between him and Kressh.
Research on the Jedi ? How ? Sending Massassi there to spy on them or go yourself ? Leaving Gav behind and attacking without knowing where he has to go ? Nice idea.

And where does it say "and that was the entire force of the Ancient Sith Empire" ? Sadow had still enough ships to create a nice blockade out of them which the Tetans couldn't pass...

1. Great, when the entire Jedi council gathered, where were Vrook, Vandar and Kreia exactly? Or is it more KOTOR bs?

2. Aha, lol: Kun didn't even GET INVOLVED in the military part until the end when his complete lack of strategy ended in total defeat AFTER Ulic messed up royally....how long did the war last?

3. As opposed to the ganks and Kanz disorders? And Yoda killing themw without his saber? Last I checked, he had to finish one of them with a saber on Dagobah.

4. Gee, Kun was only said to have been in a nest of Dark Side energies with the stolen force potential of...millions of people? And where's the proof Kreia couldn't utilize that technique, as did Sion as his assasins to replace the hole in the force that Nihilius took from her?

5. Thanks for proving my point. The Masassi don't look surprised, now do they? One of them was even holding a goddamn SITH SWORD! Yes, untrained girl who gives them a damn good chance between igniting the thing-she's still a fair bit away- to charge and kill them all. Of course, it's better than the Sith Lords who get caught off guard by a bunch of Massassi with knives. And single strike? Yep, mmmhmm

7. And it'd have killed Sadow to do research? And considering we see MEMIT NADILL killing a Sith Lord and Shark Dakhan standing around like an idiot doing nothing during a battle...yes, what a race of gods...though it's better than needing inducements to go to war to avenge the tragic death of a talking head.

8. and quote from Odann: "I'm TRYING to use my battle meditation, but it does not seem possible to sway the fury of the Masassi."
9. Please, stop trying to change the focus: At the very least, Sidious had a TWENTY YEARS WORTH of competent apprentice...Gav'd known Naga for two days and suddenly Naga's sending him to watch Cinnagar burn? and I believe Gav said it himself: Taking all Naga did would leave the Sith empire practically undefended, and Naga said they were sending all their forces to focus on a new target...and Naga said he was summoning all the fleets from the scattered star systems...and if he had gargantuan fleets, he wouldn't ever have needed illusions
10. Proof Sidious lost to yoda in a force battle. Nothing of the sort ever happened, unless Sidious died or was incapacitated while his enemy wasn't.

11. Saving Sidious's ass? As iff Sidious wouldn't have just hurled Mace out the window instead of faking an entire lightning sequence to fool Anakin...but, oh no, Samuel L. Jackson is soooo uber and Sidious sucks sooooo much

12. Considering Sidious already had several other possible apprentices lined up from Maul, Dooku being a candidate, along with Anakin himself...

13. Notice the Clone Madness was brought on by people tampering with the clone before he even inhabited it...as opposed to the six years BEFORE that. And who cautioned Sypho to create the Clone wars? Sidious. He got an idea and put it into motion. And PAlpatine completely disapproved of Maul's absolute idiocy that got him killed.

14. You mean: Discover the tiniest bits of a remote planet your troops are hardly ever stationed on, has no strategic value and zero importance....this is opposed to taking a moment to brief yourself on the leaders of the Jedi Order and the Tetans....when Palpatine fails to know anything about Mon Mothma or Rieekan, then it's comparable. And considering Anakin proved himself by assaulting the Jedi temple moments later, after Palpatine had been manipulating him for thirteen years or so.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It was called a full-scale war. That means everyone was involved. If you can't understand that, we have nothing less to talk about, you're a helpless moron. Zalem and Volfe were threats, but they weren't military threats and we know that Zalem only required 1 or 2 Jedi.

This paragraph is full of unfounded BS. Moving on...

WTF? Do you understand a timeline at all? Go look at one for a few minutes please. Revan was trained only a few years after the Great Sith War. Trained, not lived.

Go look at a timeline. You have everything out of order. Revan was trained just after the Great Sith War. That was a threat.

Oh, and note that 99.99% of the Order was killed during Mace's time. Talk about getting extreminated.

Either you have a reading disorder or are lying. 'promptly' isn't in there anywhere. Seeing as the Jedi were the primary defense for the Republic saying that they didn't fight until the end is downright stupid.

Nadd helped Jedi Master's captive even as a spirit and had many Sith Amulets. Go look over all the FACTS again.

17 Dark Jedi compared to 5,000 Dark Jedi in the 3rd Great Jedi Schism. BTW, it's quality, not quantity. Exar or Ulic could pwn all 17 of the CIS's Dark Jedi with ease.

We can say that, but people will consider you a moron. Having their Amulets is directly part of their power.

Considering that's not the only source it doesn't matter...

I don't care if you're certain. Prove up.

When did KJA say this? Back it up and cut the BS because in KOTOR 1 and 2 we see their tombs.

Any proof of that? No? That's what I thought.

The Republic put them there, it's their fault. I don't see you defending all of the Nazi's who were killed who never actually killed an innocent.

Jango made them nothing. He ended up being the one who let them die. It was other's, like Boba, who made them great again.

It has 63 ruling worlds, but considering it was able to stave off the 6 million planet Empire and the had people who wore hairpieces worth more then five planets(stated in 'Darkest Knight', they have tens of thousands of other planets.

They were outnumbered 5 - 1. The Republic had 1 million planets. 200,000 is a fifth of that. They were also more powerful then the Hutt's. The Hutt's had over a hundred thousand planets. Stop denying the facts.

1. That's mainly because Zalem never got to Infinity's End. Karkko was enough to stir the entire Order. And the Kanz disorder was never a full scale war. It was a dictatorship that was overthrown by the Jedi three years later. Full scale war never mentioned. And the Ganks were mentioned as embarking on a full scale war...until promptly put down.

2. Read SW Visionaries: The last line in Prototypes is how Durge is going to assault the Mandalorians and Ung Kusp for Jaing's death....and want proof of that little New Sith Thing? Star Wars Insider, issue 80. Nice pic of the Mandalorian forces attacking the Dark Underlord's. Any proof for your statements on how the new Sith were weak?

3. How old was Revan I wonder? And as he was a newborn, he'd have to have been pushing forty by the time of his war.

4. Note that nearly the entire order was exterminated in Revan's time and is being nicely rebuilt by Luke.

5. The Republic didn't get involved in Kanz for three hundred years. And the Gank wars were over when the Jedi got involved, according to the NEC.

6. You mean...'Nadd held Arca's spirit captive with the help of king Ommin, Warb Null, after driving Arca into near unconcsiousness after surprising him, with Sith amulets?'

7. PRoof of 5,000 Dark Jedi in the great schism. And Proof Exar or Ulic could take seventeen knights with ease. Ulic wasn't exactly Mr. tough guy.

8. If amulets are a direct part of their power, their dependancy on them is a massive weakness. Remove the amulets from a fight with JUST the force and JUST swordsplay, no stimulants, no amulets/gauntlets containing force enchanging crystals and let's see how the Sith do.

9. You're right: Only the Han Solo trilogy and the NEC, along with WOTC stuff mention Xendor.

10. When did KJA say this? Bane of the Sith, Tales of the Jedi companion....and seriously, Borbarad should be able to back me up on THIS at least: was Ludo Kressh vaporized or not vaporized in space. Did the Sith have time to build a massive temple when they were in the process of extermination from the Sith? Why does the big statue outside of Darth Andeddu's tomb have Sith facial protrusions? The world may never know...

11. Jango Fett open seasons: Stated that Jaster wished to reform the Mandos and Vizsla thought they should conquer the galaxy. And one of Vizsla's charming lines about Jango's sister: "We don't leave witnesses, take care of her."

12. The Republic PUT them there? How about "The Republic took refuge amongst them?" Any excuses for what the Mandalorians did to the Cathar? They drove them to near EXTINCTION, JUST to 'test their worth'....no Republic involved.

13. Quote from Ghez Hokan: "Jango Fett was a source of great pride to the surviving Mandalorians. Even if he fought for money, he was the best."
I have the page number if you'd like it. Jango raised them back up. The Mandalorians followed him, a young man, barely a commander because they wanted to, because they loved him, because he was Jaster's legacy. THAT is true greatness. Jango didn't smother them with strength and brutality: He made himself a beloved leader to them. Silas, a Mandalorian, died crying believing he'd betrayed Jango in some small way. Montross and the Death Watch murdered innocent people and blamed Jango's men. Jango did something totally unfounded: He survived. He came back. He wiped out the Death Watch and killed Vizsla and Montross: He was a truer warrior than most any of those butchers.

14. You miss the part where Hapes was subjugated. And considering only the sixty worlds are ever mentioned as being part of the Hpan empire...remember the gift giving parts to Leia in Courtship? 60 gifts for sixty worlds, with Isolder from Hapes itself. I'd think those other 100,000 planets would have contributed, being part of Hapes...

15. Was the Republic that big back then? Were the Mandos referring to the galaxy or the Force they were specifically facing there? To the number of soldiers? 'Forces' aren't 'planets', they're soldiers. Where is it HINTED the Hutts have 100,000 worlds? Was Persia over a hundred times bigger than Greece at Thermopalye?

Darth_Glentract

Lightsnake, all of your arguments are crap. They are unfounded and I can think of many times when you have downright lied about information. I am finished with you.

Dark Aristokrat

Pwnt.

calvin44

down
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Lightsnake, all of your arguments are crap. They are unfounded and I can think of many times when you have downright lied about information. I am finished with you.
Oh Snap!

Illustrious

So you're saying there were only 10 or so Jedi left on the entirety of Coruscant while one of the greatest space battles unfurl? And wait, those PT era Jedi can be all over, but the Sith War jedi can't possibly be anywhere else. I love how you jump from strict constructionist to loose constructionist whenever convenient. I suggest you turn on your brain.

So you're saying because the war started in 3997 BBY means that Kun couldn't possibly have been involved? So he recruits far more followers than Sidious means he's somehow inferior?

Oh you dodged the question. First it was "they never did force choke without their technology" then it was "he never did it without the energy."

That's not the point I'm making, read what I typed. I'm saying he didn't come up with the technique out of the blue, he knew it beforehand and ergo you're not giving the ancient sith enough credit. Anakin, for all of his force potential, sure wasn't pushing Watto around as a 9 year old. Why? Because he couldn't.

Wait. If I catch a football with gloves, it means I couldn't have done it without? If I punch someone in the mouth with brass knuckles, it means I couldn't have managed to punch him without them? Did you think that maybe they wanted to maximize their effectiveness? Don't you think Sidious maybe wanted to the same thing when he used the amulet?

And how does the absense of them doing stuff naked prove they can't. I never see Ragnos take a sh!t in the comics, does that mean he has no anus and can't crap? You're full of it. If you want to argue they can't use the force without their technology, you have to prove it (note definition given).

And oh wait, how does them using technology ON THEIR PERSON have anything to do with it? Is Sadow showing up to battle naked?

Why not make a "Superman with no arms vs. Batman with Wolverine's Claws vs. Yoda with a pitchfork" thread while you're at it? Debate stuff that's relevent. If you can't prove it or give logical reason to believe it, it's irrelevent. I could very well say Ragnos could turn Korriban into cheese, but I can't prove it, so I'm leaving it out of the thread.

Oh, you mean that curved scimitar thing on a stick that looks nothing like the weapons Ludo and Naga were using and suspiciously similar to the ones the rest of the Massassi had?

And even if it was a sith sword, it doesn't help your credibility when you said sith swords were resistant to lightsabers.

You are screwed both ways.

So wait, Sidious doesn't need to do "research" about Endor while he parks his ass in his death star overlooking the planet, but Sadow does need to do "research" while he parks his ass on his destroyer... overlooking the planet.

A little bit of hypocrisy there.

Glad to see you ignored the point about Yoda turning the tables on them. It's even in the official script, I suggest you take a gander at it.

Glad you are so skilled at dodging points.

If his force lightning didn't blow Mace Windu out the window, why would a force push have worked? Why didn't he throw him out the window a long time ago? Maybe because Mace could have countered it, maybe because Mace put him on his ass. Maybe because Mace was the better fighter.

And also, according to your logic, "we never see Sidious push anyone out of windows, therefore he can't."

Hypocrite.

Yes, see my point about Anakin not throwing Watto around at 9 years old. He still needs to be trained as was reiterated and made painfully clear in the movies.

That still doesn't disguise the fact that Dooku didn't leave until TPM was in motion at the earliest.

LMFAO at changing topics now. Concede the point, and stop being a coward.

You said he had them lined up. I proved you wrong, and you run off that "it wouldn't have impeded his plan much."

Where's the evidence. I don't seem to recall anywhere where it was mentioned that he wouldn't be impeded if he didn't have an apprentice.

Stick with your OWN logic. Stop applying double standards.

He threw Vader as his second in command and sent him to Mustafar ALONE. The potential for a screwup is huge, and it nearly cost him an apprentice. At least Naga Sadow could keep tabs on Gav.

Spirits on Korriban that themselves have never seen the Republic?

Dark Aristokrat

Hey look... Ragnos really DOESN'T have an anus, Illustrious!

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6889/markaragnos3df.jpg

Btw, pwnt.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Illustrious
So you're saying there were only 10 or so Jedi left on the entirety of Coruscant while one of the greatest space battles unfurl? And wait, those PT era Jedi can be all over, but the Sith War jedi can't possibly be anywhere else. I love how you jump from strict constructionist to loose constructionist whenever convenient. I suggest you turn on your brain.

So you're saying because the war started in 3997 BBY means that Kun couldn't possibly have been involved? So he recruits far more followers than Sidious means he's somehow inferior?

Oh you dodged the question. First it was "they never did force choke without their technology" then it was "he never did it without the energy."

That's not the point I'm making, read what I typed. I'm saying he didn't come up with the technique out of the blue, he knew it beforehand and ergo you're not giving the ancient sith enough credit. Anakin, for all of his force potential, sure wasn't pushing Watto around as a 9 year old. Why? Because he couldn't.

Wait. If I catch a football with gloves, it means I couldn't have done it without? If I punch someone in the mouth with brass knuckles, it means I couldn't have managed to punch him without them? Did you think that maybe they wanted to maximize their effectiveness? Don't you think Sidious maybe wanted to the same thing when he used the amulet?

And how does the absense of them doing stuff naked prove they can't. I never see Ragnos take a sh!t in the comics, does that mean he has no anus and can't crap? You're full of it. If you want to argue they can't use the force without their technology, you have to prove it (note definition given).

And oh wait, how does them using technology ON THEIR PERSON have anything to do with it? Is Sadow showing up to battle naked?

Why not make a "Superman with no arms vs. Batman with Wolverine's Claws vs. Yoda with a pitchfork" thread while you're at it? Debate stuff that's relevent. If you can't prove it or give logical reason to believe it, it's irrelevent. I could very well say Ragnos could turn Korriban into cheese, but I can't prove it, so I'm leaving it out of the thread.

Oh, you mean that curved scimitar thing on a stick that looks nothing like the weapons Ludo and Naga were using and suspiciously similar to the ones the rest of the Massassi had?

And even if it was a sith sword, it doesn't help your credibility when you said sith swords were resistant to lightsabers.

You are screwed both ways.

So wait, Sidious doesn't need to do "research" about Endor while he parks his ass in his death star overlooking the planet, but Sadow does need to do "research" while he parks his ass on his destroyer... overlooking the planet.

A little bit of hypocrisy there.

Glad to see you ignored the point about Yoda turning the tables on them. It's even in the official script, I suggest you take a gander at it.

Glad you are so skilled at dodging points.

If his force lightning didn't blow Mace Windu out the window, why would a force push have worked? Why didn't he throw him out the window a long time ago? Maybe because Mace could have countered it, maybe because Mace put him on his ass. Maybe because Mace was the better fighter.

And also, according to your logic, "we never see Sidious push anyone out of windows, therefore he can't."

Hypocrite.

Yes, see my point about Anakin not throwing Watto around at 9 years old. He still needs to be trained as was reiterated and made painfully clear in the movies.

That still doesn't disguise the fact that Dooku didn't leave until TPM was in motion at the earliest.

LMFAO at changing topics now. Concede the point, and stop being a coward.

You said he had them lined up. I proved you wrong, and you run off that "it wouldn't have impeded his plan much."

Where's the evidence. I don't seem to recall anywhere where it was mentioned that he wouldn't be impeded if he didn't have an apprentice.

Stick with your OWN logic. Stop applying double standards.

He threw Vader as his second in command and sent him to Mustafar ALONE. The potential for a screwup is huge, and it nearly cost him an apprentice. At least Naga Sadow could keep tabs on Gav.

Spirits on Korriban that themselves have never seen the Republic?

1. If we're talking about Fall of the Sith Empire? We see the Jedi ARRIVAL on the planet. In Sith War? We see the entire council of 'em

2. Sidious had far more followers than twenty brainwashed by a Sith holocron, for one....two, for the better part of that area, Kun was on Yavin. And stop mixing up the topics: Kun on Yavin is the spirit Kun that was stuck there for 4,000 years

3. We see Sadow clearly do nothing as the ship itself fires upon the star, blowing it up. We see ALEMA KETO use the ship to blow it up, we see the words 'The Ancient Weapons on sadow's sith ship, etc etc etc."
Until they show incredible power WITHOUT carrying crystals on their person constantly...Yes, yes, it may make him smart, but it doesn't make him powerful. I wouldn't expect him to show up to a battle naked, but if we're comparing HIS power to someone else? Fall in and strip down.

4. No, you're right, that's a spearhead, my mistake.

5. Well, considering his forc elightning wasn't as strong as the lightning he used on Luke or to actually KILL Mace...And yes, as always, impossible assume Sidious held back, was overpowered to trick Anakin to the dark Side...nope, the man who could manipulate a galaxy and blind an enetire Jedi Order could NEVER be so cunning...

6. We see Sidious push someone out the window: Mace.

7. I really doubt Sidious DIDN'T do research on Endor...however that and "Put my men in secluded barracks away from Ewoks who could conceivably befriend a plucky rebel princess where a rebel could lure my men outside so they could be demolished in guerilla warfare as the ewoks fight for a golden droid they believe a God." The variables are incredibly sketchy. And the ewoks weren't exactly doing a damn thing to the Death Star was it was. An oversight? Oh yeah. A massive, gaping hole? Nope.

8. Where did Yoda turn the tables on him before the final battle? Hell, in the script Grievous killed Shaak Ti. In the scripts, Greedo wrestled Anakin

9. Anakin needed to be trained, yeah...however, he was a nine year old kid and what golden rule states Sidious wouldn't have trained him?And once again: Dooku's distaste of the republic was very well known. As was his position on the Jedi. Not hard to see 'potential' written all over ol' Chris Lee there.

10. Well, it has to do mainly with the Sith Rule of two....if your entire Order rests upon two people, you better have an apprentice ready...granted, Sidious was unorthodox there completely. And once again....Sidious sent Anakin to kill the Seperatist leaders. He entrusted Obi-wan's death to an ARC clone and his men. Kenobi even surviving was a ghost in the machine and Anakin going out of control was something uncounted for. Sidious's death in ROTJ was his fault...Anakin's burning and the Ewok victory thanks to Leia and Threepio was not.

Moreover: considering it was supposed to be a routine mission of 'kill the cowardly trademsan and dismantle some droids'...and yeah, those spirits on Korriban knew their stuff....they predicted Anakin Solo completely.

Illustrious

So is Vrook and Vander on the council in Sith War? Did you see anyone here make that assertion? Anyone?

-cricket chirp-

I'm waiting.

Guess not. Reading comprehension is your friend. We deduce that they were alive and trained Jedi at the time of the Sith War based on their timelines. It's not about arguing the semantics of their existence.

Maybe because he politically infiltrated the Republic and used propaganda? I'm not saying it wasn't a good political maneuver, but it doesn't speak of his power. Like I said, is Hitler a superior individual than George Washington? Can he beat him in a fight?

I'm not mixing up the topics. Unless you're proposing that Kun suddenly learned how to use force choke while he was a spirit, you're unfounded. You said (paraphrased) "the ancient Sith never used force choke without their technology." I countered it doesn't show anything, as it doesn't show they can't. You've never countered that statement, you've merely tried to spin it in circles.

He built the ship, he clearly has the knowledge that exceeds the level shown of people past the Golden Age.

And since when is this a "fall in and strip down" thing? Lightsabers are a weapon. Are you proposing they fight fisticuff? Besides, you can't prove what level they are at without their equipment. DE Sidious used equipment, I'm not arguing how powerful he would be if he was naked.

So you've officially:

1) Applied hypocritical, double-standard logic.
2) Arbitrarily omitted, tampered with evidence.
3) Avoided the topic on multiple occassions.
4) Changed the parameters of the original discussion on whim.

Good job man.

There you go again with the grandiose terms, you're bias really shows through. He sure didn't manipulate the Rebels. He sure didn't manipulate much besides his own bowels when he was benchpressed into the reactor core.

Fact of the matter is, you have no proof he could have done what you said. In fact, the evidence we have suggests Mace kicked his ass fair and square.

We see him lightning him out the window. You said he would push someone out the window while he was fighting him.

And I'm sure Anakin hacking off his arm had NOTHING to do with that.

So is the "let's have some guy get in a chamber and sacrifice himself with a material that happens to own pretty much any living creature it comes into airborne contact with, and then let's get my ship blown right when I'm at the crossroads of victory."

Rhetorical nonsense. Prove that he did research on Endor, and prove that the research was superior to any (or the lack thereof) of Naga Sadow. The end result was the Sidious wound up in the bottom of a reactor core, and Sadow limped home. Personally, I'd rather be Sadow actually.

The final script.

And it's quite apparent that you're not watching your ROTS DVD. Yoda jumps on the pod, gets his saber knocked out by the lightning, puts his hands up, and initially is leaning back. His eyes narrow and he pushes himself to a vertical base. That's overpowering.

If I'm armwrestling someone and my arm is nearly pinned but then I fight back to even, I exhibited more strength than my opponent, clear as that.

Again, avoiding the point. You said Sidious had him lined up. He did not at that point.

You said it wouldn't have impeded him, you had no proof.

Now you say that Sidious "might have trained him." Great job, and if that was the case, maybe he wouldn't get thrown down a reactor core by a parapalegic.

So Ooroo's sacrifice wasn't his fault. Your point? Doling out blame now is a second grade playground affair. You're just deviating from the topic in trying to score Sidious a win.

Fine, fine, I'll concede. Sidious would kick Sadow's ass in a farting contest.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Illustrious
So is Vrook and Vander on the council in Sith War? Did you see anyone here make that assertion? Anyone?

-cricket chirp-

I'm waiting.

Guess not. Reading comprehension is your friend. We deduce that they were alive and trained Jedi at the time of the Sith War based on their timelines. It's not about arguing the semantics of their existence.

Maybe because he politically infiltrated the Republic and used propaganda? I'm not saying it wasn't a good political maneuver, but it doesn't speak of his power. Like I said, is Hitler a superior individual than George Washington? Can he beat him in a fight?

I'm not mixing up the topics. Unless you're proposing that Kun suddenly learned how to use force choke while he was a spirit, you're unfounded. You said (paraphrased) "the ancient Sith never used force choke without their technology." I countered it doesn't show anything, as it doesn't show they can't. You've never countered that statement, you've merely tried to spin it in circles.

He built the ship, he clearly has the knowledge that exceeds the level shown of people past the Golden Age.

And since when is this a "fall in and strip down" thing? Lightsabers are a weapon. Are you proposing they fight fisticuff? Besides, you can't prove what level they are at without their equipment. DE Sidious used equipment, I'm not arguing how powerful he would be if he was naked.

So you've officially:

1) Applied hypocritical, double-standard logic.
2) Arbitrarily omitted, tampered with evidence.
3) Avoided the topic on multiple occassions.
4) Changed the parameters of the original discussion on whim.

Good job man.

There you go again with the grandiose terms, you're bias really shows through. He sure didn't manipulate the Rebels. He sure didn't manipulate much besides his own bowels when he was benchpressed into the reactor core.

Fact of the matter is, you have no proof he could have done what you said. In fact, the evidence we have suggests Mace kicked his ass fair and square.

We see him lightning him out the window. You said he would push someone out the window while he was fighting him.

And I'm sure Anakin hacking off his arm had NOTHING to do with that.

So is the "let's have some guy get in a chamber and sacrifice himself with a material that happens to own pretty much any living creature it comes into airborne contact with, and then let's get my ship blown right when I'm at the crossroads of victory."

Rhetorical nonsense. Prove that he did research on Endor, and prove that the research was superior to any (or the lack thereof) of Naga Sadow. The end result was the Sidious wound up in the bottom of a reactor core, and Sadow limped home. Personally, I'd rather be Sadow actually.

The final script.

And it's quite apparent that you're not watching your ROTS DVD. Yoda jumps on the pod, gets his saber knocked out by the lightning, puts his hands up, and initially is leaning back. His eyes narrow and he pushes himself to a vertical base. That's overpowering.

If I'm armwrestling someone and my arm is nearly pinned but then I fight back to even, I exhibited more strength than my opponent, clear as that.

Again, avoiding the point. You said Sidious had him lined up. He did not at that point.

You said it wouldn't have impeded him, you had no proof.

Now you say that Sidious "might have trained him." Great job, and if that was the case, maybe he wouldn't get thrown down a reactor core by a parapalegic.

So Ooroo's sacrifice wasn't his fault. Your point? Doling out blame now is a second grade playground affair. You're just deviating from the topic in trying to score Sidious a win.

Fine, fine, I'll concede. Sidious would kick Sadow's ass in a farting contest.

1. Fine, your point is seen, I concede the point.

2. I never counted Exar among the Ancient Sith, Illustrious.....though Hitler vs. Washington would make a helluva pay per view.

3. When was it ever hinted Sadow built that ship? And one thing noone seems to be able to answer: WHAT ARTIFACTS DID DE SIDIOUS USE?! Name a single one on his person when he did some of his feats-hell, at one point in the comic, he was fighting naked!

4. Y'know Illustrious, I'm REALLY attempting to show you respect in this debate as you and Janus I respect highly, could you please return the favor here? I admitted I was wrong before and if I am, I'll admit it, but cut the insults.

5. The evidence suggests that Sidious, who avoided Mace to cut down three skilled Jedi, drove Mace back then suddenly gets worse as Anakin arrives lost fair and square? And the lightning? When does force lightning rot your teeth?

6. Technically, Sidious wound up on Byss...howwever, unlike Sadow, Sidious had the area under his thumb and since he made it a base of operations...Sadow took no time to prepare or even make certain his rival was really dead, he simply plunged right in. And he was never at the crossroads of victory in the first place. His men were deadlocked with the Republic till Ooroo's sacrifice and Gav knocked his concentration out...and you may want to reconsider being sadow when you consider his homecoming and final fates

7. I could've sworn I see Sidious step forward as well as Yoda, that's honestly not sarcasm on my part, I really believe that's what happens

8. I can provide a source saying Palpatine kept tabs on Anakin (The Chronology), y'know.

9. Ooroo's death was hardly the only disaster! Most of his forces on the planet were illusions and of the three planets, he made sure Gav went to CINNAGAR, where there was vicious fighting going on...and decided to make sure his men DIDN'T heed Gav's instructions to not kill his father figure...and Sadow was honestly shocked Gav betrayed him? I could forgive giving the kid a small position...but passing over Sith lords as a number 2?

Illustrious

Fine, but he still was pretty adorned. And I'd watch it, but I'd put my money on the guy who had the respect of everyone that fought with him rather than the Austrian painter.

It was implied, and it was possessive, and the narrator did say Sadow created artifacts. Also DE Sidious had Naga Sadow's amulet.

He fought naked at one, he didn't cast storms and throw stars around naked. The fact of the matter is that you're attempting to compare an unknown to an unknown. You have no idea how powerful Sadow is without his equipment, undermining him doesn't prove your case. In fact, it's very transparent.

What insults? I certainly don't try to insult you personally. I've gone down point and point and I've shown you where you committed the fallacies, and I've shown you where the bias comes through by your use of grandiose vocabulary.

Drove him back? You see Mace bring his saber up, struggle, and then turn the lightning back on Sidious' face, and then have Anakin walk into the room.

And since when does Sidious' aesthetic appearance have anything to do with it? Sadow asn't exactly a looker either.

The Jedi were described as being driven back, while up to 90% of the forces were illusions.

It's not like Sidious being thrown down a reactor core and then being shot in the back by a blaster as being a much better fate.

The fact of the matter is that Yoda is a small little green guy, was on the robes, and then pushed himself up. If you're trying to pin someone down and then start resisting and succeding, natural reaction is to put more weight/force on it. It doesn't change the fact that Yoda had reversed the fortunes.

Yes, and if Obi-Wan had decided to use a force push, it wouldn't have mattered. At least Naga kept Gav close.

I'm not saying Sadow is without his mistakes, I'm just saying that he had his eye on Gav, just like Sidious had his eye on Anakin. They both ended up not quite working out. The rest is semantics.