Bruce Lee (prime) vs. Mike Tyson (prime)

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vold
no rules, in a 100ftx100ft ring. no weapons. 1st to get kill/knockout/rendered useless

GODSCRIBE
no holds barred? mike tyson will eat bruce....literally.

cheap cabbage
Bruce Lee will hit tyson 5 times before he can open his mouth. The while tyson is curled over in pain, lee breaks his skull like he does coconuts. What is this thread doing in a comic verus forum?

Sir Whirlysplat
Tyson easily check out Lee v Ali all, the evidence Ali fans can produce is film and fantasy based.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Of course a very small man would beat the champion of the world. Martial arts punching has no power, it can break boards but its actual force is limited. Lees kicking reach is probably less than Ali's reach and Ali has 40 odd pounds on him at least.

Problems with martial arts strikes. Most people think because boxers don't break boards that they do not hit as hard.

A martial artist will tell you that 4 elements are involved

1) Equilibrium (Balance)

2) Breath Control

3) Reaction Force

4) Concentration

To translate that in to the real world we need Science big grin

Physics 101 coming up

Force = Mass x Velocity2

In other words, force is accumulated in the form of speed, and at the end of the movement, speed is converted into striking force.

But were does the fourth element (concentration) come into play?

The concentration aspect of power, is not one of mind, but of area. As we concentrate that force into a smaller area, the power is increases proportionately. It is like putting a small nozzle on a garden hose... the stream of water exiting the hole is much more powerful than if we just let the water flow without. OR if you look at it from the other direction... a 200lb man standing on thin ice wearing skis... He does not fall through the ice because his weight is dispersed over a large area..

And finally the element called "Reaction Force"

Reaction Force is a very important factor in two ways... In the first way Velocity is affected. i.e. If a car traveling 50mph crashes head on into another car traveling 50 mph, the combined velocity is 100mph. Same is true with a punch or kick... If your opponent is moving in on you when you through your punch, the speed of the punch increased due to the advancement of your aggressor. This is good to know, but reaction force plays an even greater role in our power.

Newton's Law states, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". In the martial arts, we are constantly retracting one hand to our belt as we send the other one out in a punch. The resulting reaction-force is passed on through the body and arm to the striking hand. In an even more complex fashion, when the hand actually strikes the target, the shock of the blow is passed through the body to the legs to the floor and then is reversed back to the punching hand, adding further force to the blow.

So often in the arts you hear, that size doesn't matter. We demonstrate this with a little person throwing a big person to the ground. But does size matter in breaking? It is my opinion that YES it does, but it can be overcome with the increased speed that smaller people often poses.

The faster you punch, the smaller the area you make contact with, and how fast you pull that hand back after the strike, are bigger factors in the break than size or "Mass".

So Why don't Boxers break Boards? In Mr Lees own immortal words
"Boards do not fight back"

Of course, the best boxers can punch as quickly and powerfully as any black belt. Why can't they break concrete blocks too? The answer lies in the nature of their punches. When a boxer throws his fist, he usually ends the movement with follow-through. This gives the punch maximum momentum (golf and tennis players follow through for the same reason), and it can help knock an opponent down. But the impact itself is diffuse: It's meant to jar an opponent's brain, not break a board.

So why are martial arts strikes crap?

Solid as they seem, all materials are at least slightly elastic. Whack them in the right spot and they will start to oscillate. A punch with a follow-through would dampen such oscillations, but a karate chop, by pulling away at the last moment, lets them move freely. If you tweak a rubber band it goes up and down, and the same is true if you tweak a board or a brick with a much greater force. When they reach their elastic limits, they start to yield. In other words, they break.

Fortunately for most of us, reaching that limit in bones is no easy matter. Bone can withstand 40 times more force than concrete, and a cylinder of bone less than an inch in diameter and 213 inches long can withstand a force of more than 25,000 newtons. Hands and feet can withstand even more than that, because their skin, muscles, ligaments, tendons, and cartilage absorb a great deal of impact. As a result, a well-kicked foot can absorb about 2,000 times as much force as concrete before breaking.

So Martial artists strikes are effective at Breaking boards but to break bones you need force (unless your very lucky) a martial arts strike simply cannot deliver.

However the momentum from a Boxers punch which actually generates more force. if you wish I will explain why in another post.

For this reason alone Ali will knock Lees block off laughing

I hope this ends the Argument to everyones satisfaction big grin

Keep the faith rock

Stay Whirly smile

thesilverspider
bruce wins he is chucks master after all.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by thesilverspider
bruce wins he is chucks master after all.

Nope Bruce was a tiny man. Tyson would destroy him.

thesilverspider
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Nope Bruce was a tiny man. Tyson would destroy him.
A few kicks to the balls would drop tyson.............

Sir Whirlysplat
Truth about Lee

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Thanks Advent to nail this guy totally lets look at his training - training taken from - Bruce Lee's own books sourced throughout by Mr Hess.

References for Mr Hess's analysis and his qualifications and published work at the bottom

Bruce Lee is the personality most associated with the martial arts. Both
martial art enthusiasts and non-practioners consider the deceased actor as the ultimate martial artist. Although he did not compete in tournaments or submit to any empirical conventions wherein his ability could be objectively assessed, he is frequently referred to as a superior athlete and the strongest fighter "pound for pound." A close examination of his exercise regime and personal character reveal a committed athlete and martial artist but not to the mythic proportions usually ascribed to him. This article will review Lee's physical strength, aerobic capacity, and individual character to assess whether he should be considered the "best of the best".

I. Physical strength.
Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed
an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength training program Lee used during 1965 (Lee, 1989), he performed squats using 95 pounds with 10 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum (1RM) of 130 pounds (Wathen, 1994), which would place him below the 25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males (Hatfield, 1993).
This type of estimation for the 1 repetition maximum is standard among
athletic trainers to assess the strength level of a wide range of athletes,
both professional and amateur.While some chart estimates may vary slightly from one to another, most are within approximately 10% of one another.
Some readers, who are accustomed to viewing Lee as possessing epic strength, may assert that Lee probably was not using his maximum ability at that time. It is therefore noted that this regime occurred prior to Lee's well-known back injury. Furthermore, if Lee was capable of performing the squat exercise with more than 95 pounds for 10 repetitions, one must question why this was part of his established routine or, alternatively, why he would be committing himself to a method of underachievement by using too low an amount of weight to stimulate the greatest strength gains possible.
To further demonstrate this below-average lower body strength, the estimated
130 pound maximum estimate would mean Lee was not prepared for plyometric training (a type of explosiveness exercise) which requires the ability to squat a minimum of 1.5 times the body weight (Allerheiligen, 1994).In other words, at an approximate body weight of 140 pounds, Lee would need to have squatted 210 pounds to engage in plyometric training based on recognized standards for training of athletes by today's standards.
Lee's upper body strength is another matter altogether and, when understood from a sport science perspective, partially explains his on-screen appeal. Once again, according to the program used during his 1965 stay in Hong Kong, Lee performed bicep curls using a weight of 80 pounds and 8 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum of 110 pounds and would place him in the 100th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class.From a training perspective, one must question how a discrepancy of this proportion, between his upper and lower body strength, evolved in Lee's training. Nevertheless, it demonstrates that his upper body strength was developed to its maximum potential.
Numerous observers of Bruce Lee, such as deceased Kenpo master Ed Parker, have stated Lee was perhaps the strongest "pound for pound" martial artist. Sport science can confirm this possibility. Numerous assessments of athletes throughout the past few decades have confirmed that smaller athletes are proportionately stronger than larger ones.This is due to the fact that a muscle's maximum contractile force is proportional to its cross-sectional area.In laymen's terms, this means that a smaller athlete has a higher strength to mass ratio than larger athletes.
Stated practically, as body size increases, body mass increases more rapidly than does muscle strength. In a colloquial sense, it could be said this is similar to the "law of diminishing returns." Certain martial art film stars such as Jean Claude Van Damme and Jeff Speakman may look better due to their mass, but their actual strength, in proportion to body weight, would be less than a relatively light person such as Lee.Incredible speed is inherent to superior strength at a low body weight.
Since Lee never weighed more than 143 pounds yet possessed superior upper body strength in the 100th percentile, this would account for the lightening speed he demonstrated on film. With more mass, he would not have been as fast and would not have appeared so on film.

II. Aerobic capacity.
Lee was known to advocate running as the best cardiovascular exercise (Lee, 1975) and is reported to have run 2 miles in 15 minutes or 6 miles in 45 minutes (Storm, 1986; Lee, 1989).In either case, this would mean an approximate pace of a 7 minute 30 second mile. This pace equates to a VO2 max of approximately 50 ml/kg/min (Noakes, 1991). The VO2 max is a method employed by sport scientists to estimate an individual's maximum capacity to use oxygen during extended exercise.
The average VO2 max among healthy young men is between 45 and 55. Lee's estimated value of 50, based on his running times, would place him squarely in the middle of average healthy young men. The values among elite runners and cross-country skiers is usually a range between 75 and 85 ml/kg/min. In other words, Lee's aerobic capacity was quite average. Once again, certain readers who are accustomed to viewing Lee in epic proportions may assert that Lee was not running his fastest and was capable of more. Considering his personality, if this were true it arguably would have been publicized somewhere.
In contrast to Lee's estimated aerobic capacity, a Canadian research study published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62 (Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race. It is a curious notion, therefore, that Lee was considered to be an aerobic phenomenon. Current elite kickboxing competitors register higher aerobic capacity than did Bruce Lee.

III.Personal Character.
The great karate master Gichin Funakoshi stated that martial artists should show great concern for family and relationships. "The mind of the true karateka should be imbued with (family) concern before he turns his attention to his body and the refinement of his technique" (Funakoshi, 1975).
In contrast, Lee is reported to have been involved in several extramarital affairs and, in fact, died in the apartment of a woman with whom he has intimately involved (Beeckler, 1996).
Lee also died without a will (intestate) which left his widow with almost a decade of legal battles to settle the matter of his estate. While some may argue that his early, unanticipated, death would have precluded finalizing a will, Lee was conscious enough of his own mortality that he purchased significant amounts of life insurance just months prior to his death.
And while Funakoshi admonishes martial artists to render honor to their families before refining themselves, when Bruce Lee did refine himself physically it was not in a wholly honorable fashion. In addition to the prescription medications Cortisone and Dilantin, he is also reported to have used anabolic steroids and diuretics to achieve his physique (Beeckler, 1996). It is also documented that he was a user of marijuana during the final three years of his life and it was discovered in his body during the autopsy.

Why the Best of the Best?
Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone. Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood court?
Today's martial athletes can demonstrate their abilities in an empirical
manner. For example, the IMPAX instrument records the total of punches and kicks delivered in a certain period of time and the total force of a strike or kick. The elite kick boxers surveyed in the earlier referenced study were objectively assessed regarding their aerobic and anaerobic capacity as well as maximum knee torque. In other words, the tools exist today to determine who is the best of the best among

martial artists. continued in next post

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
continued from last post smile

For better or worse, Lee escaped objective evaluation.
It's tremendously subjective but Bruce Lee is arguably considered the most noteworthy martial artist due to his magnetism on film. Regardless of any opinion about his actual martial art talent, or lack of empirical
demonstration regarding his ability, he expressed himself on the screen in a manner that no martial artist has equaled. And, by combining his upper body strength and light body weight, he possessed uncanny speed that visually made believers of anyone who saw him in action.

Reassessing the Usefulness of the Bruce Lee Myth
In one sense, Lee is forever a tremendous asset to the martial art community as his image and myth draws people to the arts. These fledgling martial artists may then be retained for more noble and enduring reasons than a desire to emulate someone whose example is questionable upon closer examination.
Once a martial artist reviews the reality of Lee's strength, aerobic capacity and personal character, a sober question must be addressed: should Lee's myth be actively deconstructed among novice martial artists? Perhaps not. That may be a function of maturity and be better emphasized in the later stages of training and spiritual development within the arts. Instead, people need a visual image to connect to and, until they begin to see their own selves in growing competency, may need the myth of Bruce Lee to sustain their training efforts.






References

Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (70)

Wathen, Dan (1994). Load Assignment. In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (436)

Hatfield, Fredrick C., Ph. D. (1993). Fitness: The Complete Guide. International Sport Sciences Association, California. (119) .

Allerheiligen, William B. (1994). Speed Development and Plyometric Training. In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (321)

Lee, Bruce (1975). Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Ohara, Burbank, California. ( )

Storm, Mitch; Black Belt Magazine, The Editors (1986). The Legendary Bruce Lee. Ohara, Burbank, CA. (53)

Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (54)

Noakes, Timothy, M.D. (1991). The Lore of Running. Leisure Press, Champaign, Illinois. (42)

Tiidus, Peter M.; Zabukovec, Randy (1995). "Physiological and Anthropometric Profile of Elite Kickboxers". Journal of Strength and Conditioning research, (November) 240-242.

Funakoshi, Gichin (1975). Karate-Do: My Way of Life. Kodansha International, Tokyo, Japan. (102)

Beeckler, Tom (1996). Unsettled Matters: The Life and Death of Bruce Lee. Gilderoy Publications, Lompoc, California. (144; 182)



ABOUT THE AUTHOR: In addition to the martial arts, Mr. Hess is a licensed cycling coach who regularly works with successful endurance athletes with tiny vertical jumps. He is the author of Total Quality Martial Arts: Pathways to Continuous Improvement.

Lee sure was strong smile


Keep the faith smile

Stay Whirly rock

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Evil Genius
Ok,
I'm tired of all the retardation going on in this thread about Bruce Lee.
Lets look at the facts and find out what makes him so great.
Some people say he could punch through phonebooks and do a one-inch punch and knock someone back 20 feet. Fact: there is videotape footage of him demonstrating his 1-inch punch at a karate tournament. He has a guy standing flat-footed with a chair about 5 feet behind him. He hits the guy and the guy falls back into the chair. Big deal. I could head-butt, knee, elbow, punch, or kick someone that far and I have before.
You claim that Bruce Lee was a great fighter, if not one of the greatest ever and some have said that he could easily beat todays top fighters.....the men of No Holds Barred competition like Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, or Sakuraba.
fact: There is no documented footage of Bruce Lee ever being in a fight. There are a few eyewitnesses who saw him fight another chinese guy at his Kwoon and the results were unanimous... neither of the fighters was able to finish the other one off.
His Wing Chun brothers claim he got in brawls in Hong Kong, but it was with other punk kids in the back alleys of Hong Kong when Lee was skipping school or was out causing trouble.
When asked if he would fight any of the top full-contact Karate guys of his time, Lee always mumbled something about not being ready, or that he was working on some new technique.
fact: We have all been in brawls in high school, does that make us the worlds best fighters?
Also, Judo Gene Lebell easily put lee in a submission hold and treated him like a rag doll. People witnessed this event. At the time Gene Lebell was around 15 years or so older than Bruce Lee. Imagine what a guy like Sakuraba or Ken Shamrock could do to Lee if both were in their primes.

And lastly you say he was a great actor and Kung Fu movie star.
Fact: His acting sucked. He never won an academy award or any type of recognition for his acting for that matter. But I give you this, he was one hell of a Kung Fu star and his movies rock! He was also a great martial artist and innovator, and his JKD will probably live on forever.

soleran30
tyson I believe after watching his prime fights except buster douglas WON! Now Bruce Lee might winnevermind my last statementsmile

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by soleran30
tyson I believe after watching his prime fights except buster douglas WON! Now Bruce Lee might winnevermind my last statementsmile

He wasn't prime v Douglas, his marriage had gone **** up and with it his mind.

soleran30
ok so place us in his prime please and BL so we don't get fruity with pieces like that.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by soleran30
ok so place us in his prime please and BL so we don't get fruity with pieces like that.

Tyson v Spinks - Atlantic City, Nov 9th, 1988

snoopdogg
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Tyson v Spinks - Atlantic City, Nov 9th, 1988 I remember that fight.

Tyson kicked @ss in that fight.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I remember that fight.

Tyson kicked @ss in that fight.

Indeed he did - Spinks was highly thought of up to that point Snoop as I'm sure you recall.

golem370
To put Tyson in the same ring with Bruce is a disgrace Bruce is faster Smarter. Bruce knocked a guy who weight 235 pounds off his feet with a 2 inch punch They said camera men told bruce to slow down for the cameras while Bruce was fighting on screen.In Enter The Dragon when he kicked Bob Wall into the other fighters the impact broke somebodies arms Chuck Norris is only good for growing chest and Back hair. He would get owned by Seagal,Samo Law,Dan Inosanto. Mick Tyson who have a better chance against Bolo Yeung

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by golem370
To put Tyson in the same ring with Bruce is a disgrace Bruce is faster Smarter use he knock a guy 235 pounds off his feet with a 2 inch punch The said they had to slow the cameras down when Bruce was fighting on screen. Chuck Norris is only good for growing chest and Back hair. He would get owned by Seagal,Samo Law. Mick Tyson who have a better chance against Bolo Yeung

Rubbish smile

Sir Whirlysplat
On Lees fighting reccord

Originally posted by Zarathustra
It never stops being relevant that Lee doesn't have a fight record. Theories, which Lee certainly had a good number of, are useless to us if they are not proven effective by actual application. Hit and Miss's repeated attempts to portray great boxers like George Foreman and Joe Lewis as static brawlers are not only inaccurate, but offensive to some of the greatest fighters of the past century. One wonders, if boxing is so devoid of skill, why the legendary Bruce Lee you think so highly of chose to draw on that very sport, along with fencing, to improve upon his Wing Chun Kung Fu?
Again and again: Lee trained to fight boxers. So what? Every man Muhammad Ali ever fought had trained against boxers: most of them were excellent at fighting boxers. That didn't stop Ali from knocking out a great many of them.

Is it conceivable that a man Lee's size could defeat Ali? It's possible, but that man would have to be a much, much better pound for pound fighter than Ali to manage it. Lee's lack of any fight record makes it impossible to ascertain whether or not he was capable of such a feat. Lacking such evidence (only successful application of his skills: hence fights, are sufficient), one must assume that Ali would come out on top because big guys beat smaller guys and the onus is upon the smaller man to prove otherwise.
One way or another, his ideas were revolutionary: unfortunately, mixed martial arts didn't really become a reality until Royce Gracie sprang onto the scene in the first UFC's, proving that strikers really did need to learn grappling if they were to be truly effective fighters.

Anyway, the whole point is moot: Gracie would tear either of these guys apart inside of three minutes.

snoopdogg
Royce Gracie was defeated by Ken Shamrock wasn't he?

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Royce Gracie was defeated by Ken Shamrock wasn't he?

No it was a draw at UFC 5 but the thing is Shamrock managed to avoid the ground game being fully utilised, prior to the arrival of Gracie the ground game was not a factor. Tyson and Lee did not train against takedowns.

snoopdogg
I thought they fought twice.

Did you see the Pride fighting match in which Bob Sapp was deafeated by Antonio Rodrigo Nogeria? That was awesome Rodrigo was only 220lbs and Sapp was 370lbs of solid mucle.

Rodrigo tapped him out with a armbar. It was unbelievable.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I thought they fought twice.

Did you see the Pride fighting match in which Bob Sapp was deafeated by Antonio Rodrigo Nogeria? That was awesome Rodrigo was only 220lbs and Sapp was 370lbs of solid mucle.

Rodrigo tapped him out with a armbar. It was unbelievable.

Yes I did, it was excellent. Gracie beat Shamrock before the UFC and shamrock never beat him to my knowledge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royce_Gracie

snoopdogg
Didn't the fight end with Shamrock on top of Gracie punching him?

I might be wrong though.

DigiMark007
Not comics. Closing.

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