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I know that DC fans think Marvel sucks because it has less powerful characters, but IMO it's a plus. I mean, if Superman can move the moon whenever he wants then it's not that impressive, because it's not out of the ordinary. In Marvel feats like moving a train or battleship are actually real demonstrations of power and I believe that's best. This way those feats are actually impressive. I mean, does anybody really bother to think about how much a train weighs? Like hundreds of thousands of tons? And the characters in Marvel do DC level feats sometimes. Often enough that you know they can if they have to, yet rare enough that if you see them do it you're like "Wow! Holy moley! Thor just lifted the Midgard Serpent!!!", whereas whenever Superman moves the moon folks are like "Yeah, Superman moves the moon...again. *yawn*". Discuss.

DC has the tendency to just jump the gun on things and make it nuts like that. Superman especially does this all the time. His power shifts up and down all the time. Apparently he can punch through the fabric of time, but Metallo is a fight for him? Makes no sense.

IMO they aren't powerful enough. I never liked the 80s/90s idea of depowering superheroes. I prefer to see the epic clash of godlike beings.

Oh please. Thor has hammer that can sprout anti-matter. The Thunderbolts have a character that has his own micro-verse.

Marvel is full of cosmic beings with unpronouncible names. You have to do better than quoting Superman because Marvel now has a being with the "power of million exploding suns" who can do anything.

I don't like uber-powerful characters.

That's why I never read about cosmics.

Best to just ignore them.

wasn't that "power of a million suns" or whatever the same modifier once tacked onto hal jordan?

the fact is, DC has a much higher ratio of "uber-powerful" characters in their spotlights, whereas marvel's power levels are more toned down on the whole.

Originally posted by Uberking Robert
I mean, does anybody really bother to think about how much a train weighs? Like hundreds of thousands of tons?

not until someone posted this pic and claimed that it was beyond Spider-Man's abilities:

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/Spideyliftingtrain.jpg


after that we did some research and discovered that most modern traincars weigh around 6 tons

obviously the engine car would weigh more.... but overall it would still be significantly less than "hundreds of thousands of tons" a hundred tons might be pushing it (depending on the length and type of train.... a freight train would undoubtedly way a lot more than a passenger train)

That thing Spiderman is lifting is just a subway from the looks of it. An actual train (a freight that has dozens of cars) does weigh 1,000's of tons. Spider-Man could never lift that much.

Originally posted by Uberking Robert
That thing Spiderman is lifting is just a subway from the looks of it. An actual train (a freight that has dozens of cars) does weigh 1,000's of tons. Spider-Man could never lift that much. he can lift 25tons...im pretty sure that was in his range

You think DC is too uber.......

Look Surfer, Thor, SENTRY, GENIS !!!

I think it's somewhat even when it comes to uberly-powerful characters on both sides....DC has Superman, CM, all the Green Lanterns, etc etc.....Marvel has the Sentry, Genis, all the Heralds, etc etc.....DC's average character is just alot stronger than Marvels.....for example....you compare DC's most popular: Superman, to Marvel's most popular: Spiderman.....that's not even a fair comparison....

Aaaaayyyyyyyeeeeee! thumbsup

Lets put it this....

A&W: DC
McDonalds: Marvel

A&W is more famous for its root beer float....
But it doesnt mean that McDonalds doesnt sell any root beer float.....

(I dont know if a McD in your area sells it or not, but the one near me does)

I actually like the premise of "The adventures of god".

Uber Characters are fun, especially when they have a very, very normal weakness.

****. i'm getting jipped by my local mcdonalds.

why the **** does spider-man's strength keep going up? two years ago it's ten tons, then i hear it got boosted to 15, and now i'm hearing 25? what is this bullshit?

and i only curse because i know it gets censored...

I think its more to do with DC's most popular characters are at god like status, marvels most popular characters are just above normal level status, so thats how people look at it.

Originally posted by Psycho Ninja
You think DC is too uber.......

Look Surfer, Thor, SENTRY, GENIS !!!

it's not really about the most powerful characters.... it's that DC's main characters are all majorly powered (except Batman):

Superman
Green Lantern(s)
Wonder Woman
Flash

even a lot of the second stringers are majorly powerful:

Captain Marvel
Captain Atom
Firestorm
Superboy

Marvel's main characters are mainly street level:

Spider-Man
Wolverine
Captain America
DareDevil

they do have the majorly powered guys:

Thor
Sentry
Surfer
Genis

but they don't have nearly as much coverage as Superman, Green Lantern & co

Originally posted by Scoobless
it's not really about the most powerful characters.... it's that DC's main characters are all majorly powered (except Batman):

Superman
Green Lantern(s)
Wonder Woman
Flash

even a lot of the second stringers are majorly powerful:

Captain Marvel
Captain Atom
Firestorm
Superboy

Marvel's main characters are mainly street level:

Spider-Man
Wolverine
Captain America
DareDevil

they do have the majorly powered guys:

Thor
Sentry
Surfer
Genis

but they don't have nearly as much coverage as Superman, Green Lantern & co But that's just what people buy. DC have comics about COPS in Gotham, who feat Batman's enemies! It's the fans that wave the spotlight around.

Originally posted by The Ion
IMO they aren't powerful enough. I never liked the 80s/90s idea of depowering superheroes. I prefer to see the epic clash of godlike beings.

Agreed .... I my opinion its still impressive every time ....

This is just another marvel fan trying to justify marvels low showings !

I would enjoy marvel more if there more definitive demonstrations of power .... marvel feats tend to be very ambiguous , i mean how much does a giant snake weigh .... how much energy is needed to punch through a dimension ? , apparently its impossible to hold two orbs of anti matter ?

Originally posted by Psycho Ninja
You think DC is too uber.......

Look Surfer, Thor, SENTRY, GENIS !!!


Sentry and Gennis yes !!!!!!!! the other two are very inconsistent .... Thor gets beaten up by trolls !!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Scoobless
it's not really about the most powerful characters.... it's that DC's main characters are all majorly powered (except Batman):

Superman
Green Lantern(s)
Wonder Woman
Flash

even a lot of the second stringers are majorly powerful:

Captain Marvel
Captain Atom
Firestorm
Superboy

Marvel's main characters are mainly street level:

Spider-Man
Wolverine
Captain Americ.
DareDevil

they do have the majorly powered guys:

Thor
Sentry
Surfer
Genis

but they don't have nearly as much coverage as Superman, Green Lantern & co

D.C. don't really have what you all semi cosmic characters i.e. Marvels Surfer to the Cubes. Therefore their higher tier characters are seen fighting beings who are on marvels untoucahble level !!!!!!!!!!! I.e. like celestials and Galactus . IMO they shouldn't really have a chance against such characters, but they often hold up well .... This becasue they dont have as many mid Cosmic characters like Thanos and co !

Originally posted by Disappear
****. i'm getting jipped by my local mcdonalds.

why the **** does spider-man's strength keep going up? two years ago it's ten tons, then i hear it got boosted to 15, and now i'm hearing 25? what is this bullshit?

and i only curse because i know it gets censored...

I know that Spidey is Class 15. But after THE OTHER his strength might be enhanched. Personally I think it is okay to make him stronger.
Class 25-30 would be fine to me.

Originally posted by Arahan
I know that Spidey is Class 15. But after THE OTHER his strength might be enhanched. Personally I think it is okay to make him stronger.
Class 25-30 would be fine to me.

pretty much every single one of his enemies have been upgraded in recent years..... and his newer baddies all seem to be vastly more powerful than his older rogues gallery

frankly if he doesn't get some kind of upgrade soon they aren't going to be able to explain how he survives people like Morlun and Shathra

Originally posted by Uberking Robert
I know that DC fans think Marvel sucks because it has less powerful characters, but IMO it's a plus. I mean, if Superman can move the moon whenever he wants then it's not that impressive, because it's not out of the ordinary. In Marvel feats like moving a train or battleship are actually real demonstrations of power and I believe that's best. This way those feats are actually impressive. I mean, does anybody really bother to think about how much a train weighs? Like hundreds of thousands of tons? And the characters in Marvel do DC level feats sometimes. Often enough that you know they can if they have to, yet rare enough that if you see them do it you're like "Wow! Holy moley! Thor just lifted the Midgard Serpent!!!", whereas whenever Superman moves the moon folks are like "Yeah, Superman moves the moon...again. *yawn*". Discuss. trains weighs hundreds of thousands of tons?

The thing about characters with over-the-top power levels is this...

First of all, they "inspire" over-the-top one-upmanship. This tends to lessen the quality of storytelling because, too often, "bigger" is seen as "better," with everyone trying to outdo the story before. Frequent hyperfeats also have a feat-cheapening effect: been-there-done-that-yawn-next. "Damn the torpedos, full steam ahead, to blazes with any contradictions and ramifications down the line!" Which brings me to #2...

Contradictions abound, all kinds of PIS and CIS. An obvious example of this is the ol' If-the-Surfer-is-so-powerful-Why-does-he-need-a-board-to-fly? The way around these things is usually just to ignore them, otherwise, as someone once posted, Flash can have everyone beaten in 1 page, end of story/comic issue. It becomes especially ridiculous when power levels are not kept consistent, Superman being the best example of this.

Originally posted by Mindship
The thing about characters with over-the-top power levels is this...

First of all, they "inspire" over-the-top one-upmanship. This tends to lessen the quality of storytelling because, too often, "bigger" is seen as "better," with everyone trying to outdo the story before. "Damn the torpedos, full steam ahead, to blazes with any contradictions and ramifications down the line!" Which brings me to #2...

Contradictions abound, all kinds of PIS and CIS. An obvious example of this is the ol' If-the-Surfer-is-so-powerful-Why-does-he-need-a-board-to-fly? The way around these things is usually just to ignore them, otherwise, as someone once posted, Flash can have everyone beaten in 1 page, end of story/comic issue. It becomes especially ridiculous when power levels are not kept consistent, Superman being the best example of this.

Agreed .... I think A.C. tried to convey this in my 'Best Debators Forum' thread on the GDF. More is better, although it can lead to Power Inflation, which can potentionlly ruin a character !

I think the key difference (sorry if someone else already raised this point) is that in Marvel the cosmically all-powerful demigods aren't headliners. Think of Marvel's big, best known characters: Spider Man, Wolverine, Captain America, DAREDEVIL.... with the possible exception of The Hulk, Marvel's biggest characters are either street-level or only marginally above. (I say "possible" because Hulk's power levels seem to bounce up and down depending on the needs of the story.)

Silver Surfer, Genis-Vel, the Sentry, Dr. Strange.... these "cosmic power" guys are much less prominent. None of them seem to be able to hold a continuous series. I doubt we'll be seeing them in a movie anytime soon.

DC, by contrast, has its most powerful characters in the most prominent roles. Superman, Wonder Woman, and The Flash are all household names. This goes a long way to giving the impression that the DC Universe is home to the strongest heroes.

That's my two cents. It's all about impression, atmosphere, not fact.

Originally posted by Piedmon
I think the key difference (sorry if someone else already raised this point) is that in Marvel the cosmically all-powerful demigods aren't headliners. Think of Marvel's big, best known characters: Spider Man, Wolverine, Captain America, DAREDEVIL.... with the possible exception of The Hulk, Marvel's biggest characters are either street-level or only marginally above. (I say "possible" because Hulk's power levels seem to bounce up and down depending on the needs of the story.)

Silver Surfer, Genis-Vel, the Sentry, Dr. Strange.... these "cosmic power" guys are much less prominent. None of them seem to be able to hold a continuous series. I doubt we'll be seeing them in a movie anytime soon.

DC, by contrast, has its most powerful characters in the most prominent roles. Superman, Wonder Woman, and The Flash are all household names. This goes a long way to giving the impression that the DC Universe is home to the strongest heroes.

That's my two cents. It's all about impression, atmosphere, not fact.

Good post !!!!!!!! I also agree with Hulk sometimes being at a street level, his power does flucyuate alot !

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Good post !!!!!!!! I also agree with Hulk sometimes being at a street level, his power does flucyuate alot ! HUlk should not be able to be beaten by physical force...

Originally posted by jgiant
HUlk should not be able to be beaten by physical force...

But he is all the time !

Originally posted by jgiant
HUlk should not be able to be beaten by physical force...

i don't see why not.... he still has a humanoid body

Originally posted by Piedmon
I think the key difference (sorry if someone else already raised this point) is that in Marvel the cosmically all-powerful demigods aren't headliners. Think of Marvel's big, best known characters: Spider Man, Wolverine, Captain America, DAREDEVIL.... with the possible exception of The Hulk, Marvel's biggest characters are either street-level or only marginally above. (I say "possible" because Hulk's power levels seem to bounce up and down depending on the needs of the story.)

Silver Surfer, Genis-Vel, the Sentry, Dr. Strange.... these "cosmic power" guys are much less prominent. None of them seem to be able to hold a continuous series. I doubt we'll be seeing them in a movie anytime soon.

DC, by contrast, has its most powerful characters in the most prominent roles. Superman, Wonder Woman, and The Flash are all household names. This goes a long way to giving the impression that the DC Universe is home to the strongest heroes.

That's my two cents. It's all about impression, atmosphere, not fact.

Excellent point. More like $19.99 worth.

The great thing about Hulk is that, unlike, say, Superman or Surfer, he has a form that is very ordinary, very mortal and vulnerable, believably so, w/o PIS or CIS. There is even "logic" behind his varying power levels (ie, level of anger). He is almost the perfect character: Ordinary Joe (or Bruce) on one hand, wherein one doesnt have to invent all kinds of GAB circumstances to get a story; and yet, when you want the action to get stratospheric, well, just piss him off and awwaaayyyy you go.

Marvel still rules. I agree on the aspect that (while Batman rules) Marvel's core characters are a lot more realistic and compelling then Dc's smash-em-ups. I also never liked their teams. The Avengers are constantly changing and never consist of more then 8 members; the Fantastic Four share an origin; the various X-teams all have different pilosophies and fight among themselves; other teams don't last...

Then you have the Justice League. It's like every superpowered individual on the side of righteousness or whatever in some business corporation, loved by everyone, able to overcome every obstacle...

Marvel rules. Gods are boring. Except when Captain America tries to take them down signlehandedly.

Does anyone think the "Marvel characters are weaker" argument is at least slightly weakened by the fact that "street level" Wolverine has been at ground zero of a nuclear explosion and survived? Furthermore, didn't Spiderman beat Firelord? Characters like Wolverine and Spiderman may be street level in theory, but I'm not sure it holds up in practice.

Yes, but those same fans will generally discount such instances as "bad writing," or "misproper representation..." I agree that in extreme circumstances (like the two you mentioned) such things should be discounted as circumstances of flawed writing. On the other hand, too many fans use this nebulous division to throw anything they don't like, including entire runs of a character, out the window as "non-canon."

To cite other examples, people who don't want to believe Wolverine has above-human abilities (although he'd need them just to move with that skeleton of his) discount many instances from Larry Hama's run. Such as Wolverine throwing a matador's sword through the cockpit of a Stukka Divebomber in mid-flight and impaling the pilot. Or Wolverine being clipped in the back with the prow of a stealth-bomber and getting up to fight just moments later. Nevermind that Larry Hama has had the longest tenure on Wolverine of any writer to date, or that this level of durability corresponds to the classic days of the character (when he quite eagerly took full-power punches from Colossus and sprang right back to his feet.)

It's a real trick to decide what separates canon and non-canon and abuse is rampant. Unfortunately at this point it really isn't possible to draw a clear line, and inclination might be as good a guide as anything.