DE Sidious versus Marka Ragnos

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Dark Aristokrat
Setting: Valley of the Sith Lords on Korriban. Who wins?

Illustrious
I'm trying to think if Marka needs to grab the sword for this one.

Dark Aristokrat
Yeah, really.

Illustrious
I mean, if Ludo can shatter a sith sword with his bare hands, and he nearly wet himself at Marka's spirit, it seriously makes me wonder if a sword is even necessary.

Dark Aristokrat
No, people will argue that that was a plastic sword, because Sith Lords were masters of plastic.

Darth_Glentract
If only they new that kevlar is a plastic(ten times stronger then steel)...

Oh, and no sword will be necessary, I don't think.

Illustrious
Sith Lords were also a master of appearing weak to movie fanboys.

Dark Aristokrat
It's their mutant power.

calvin44
I think the duel would look like what Nihilus does to kries at the Trayus core...

Dark Aristokrat
And Sadow appears to play the part of Sion.

calvin44
Exactly.

Lightsnake
Even fight

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Even fight

Proof?

Dark Aristokrat
I suggest putting the bottle down and typing out a good long, solid argument.

Illustrious
Even fight, because... why exactly? Because DE Sidious can go "zOMG the POWER!" after using Naga Sadow's amulet? And this is the same Naga Sadow that's underneath Ragnos' foot?

Dark Aristokrat
Among others, no less.

Lightsnake
Oh, y'know, somewhere between DE declaring Palpatine the strongest Sith ever, him doing far more than the Ancient Sith ever did out of thin air...

calvin44
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, y'know, somewhere between DE declaring Palpatine the strongest Sith ever, him doing far more than the Ancient Sith ever did out of thin air...
Was Ragnos created at this time?

Illustrious
Since when is having crystals and amulets "out of thin air"? I thought you knocked the ancient Sith for doing it.

Lightsnake
I'll check the dates.
Point out a single artifact Palpatine had on his person when he made that Force Storm. He's wearing an open black robe in that scene btw.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll check the dates.
Point out a single artifact Palpatine had on his person when he made that Force Storm. He's wearing an open black robe in that scene btw.

Are we back to that amulets shouldn't be allowed crap again?

Dark Aristokrat
Is anyone ever gonna get an accurate timing of how long it took to conjure this huge force storm, and why it matters anyways since star ships don't have force protection?

Lightsnake
Yes, as a matter of fact we are. Of course, if we can go with that, we give Palpatine every last artifact from Korriban, Ragnos's own guiding, amongst everyone else entombed on Korriban, the Sith holocron's power he absorbed...maybe the entire Imperial fleet while we're at it..

Dark Aristokrat
Or you could prove where Sidious had those things before you bust a nut just thinking about it.

Lightsnake
And it took him moments to conjure the thing. We see him seething in anger one panel and then an entire fleet being devoured the next.

calvin44
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And it took him moments to conjure the thing. We see him seething in anger one panel and then an entire fleet being devoured the next.


but does it actually say how long, cause it could theoretically be years.

Dark Aristokrat
Years would be a bit much. I'd just like to see some specifics on the technique. Maybe a scan, if anyone had the means.

Lightsnake
If you give me a bit, I could probably get one

calvin44
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Years would be a bit much. I'd just like to see some specifics on the technique. Maybe a scan, if anyone had the means.
I know but it could take several hours, seeing as such a feat takes uber concentration and power.

Lightsnake
I'm sure the Skywalker children were pulling out the cards, watching the darkside energy seeth around him...

Dark Aristokrat
Originally posted by Lightsnake
If you give me a bit, I could probably get one

This works.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, as a matter of fact we are. Of course, if we can go with that, we give Palpatine every last artifact from Korriban, Ragnos's own guiding, amongst everyone else entombed on Korriban, the Sith holocron's power he absorbed...maybe the entire Imperial fleet while we're at it..

That doesn't help Sidious. Ragnos didn't guide him anymore then he could guide himself. Korriban was heavily plundered at this point, little remained for him to get. Those holocrons were made by people who served Ragnos and were therefor weaker then him. The Imperial Fleet is in no way part of Sidious control over the force. BTW, Ragnos' Empire could cause the Imperials a lot of damage using terroist tactics.

On the Force Storm thing, even if he did it just as fast as Sadow destroyed the star( a few seconds) he is still FAR weaker, as the energy of the force storm would be far less then the energy required for the star destroying feat, as I have proved time and time again.

Lightsnake
1. PRoof Korriban was heavily plundered....I really doubt Ragnos took kindly to people defiling his tomb. And who says Ragnos never made up a holocron? And Ragnos's empire would maybe last a week against the Imperial Empire. One blast of the Sun Crusher and that is all she wrote. If that fails, we have the galaxy gun, world devastator...And according to the DS sourcebook, Palpatine had artifacts and powers and guidance from the golden age.

2. You mean how Sadow used a superweapon on his ship? You can't really argue, I can provide numerous quotes, give sources and numbers:
1. NEC
2. The Sith War.
3. Fall of the Sith Empire.

Sadow used a superweapon on a ship. Palpatine used only the force

shall I bring out quotes next? (Page numbers on the latter two don't work as they don't HAVE page numbers, but I digress)

Illustrious
Oh, well let's see, after it no longer was being replenished by the Sith Empire, we have notables like Kun and Revan going in and looting the place. It's been plundered.

If you want to argue that Sidious had more artifacts, and used them better than the ancient Sith, you'll have to prove it.



The Imperials would win, but the Ancient Sith Empire won't go down to a single blast.

Plus, It's Ragnos vs. Palpatine. Yes, Palpatine had artifacts and powers and guidance from the golden age, from people like Ragnos! So how does he beat Ragnos in the flesh when he uses those same powers, artifacts, and guidance that Palpatine holds in reverence?



And can you establish where's Sadow's power is without the superweapon? No? Aww that's too bad.

Don't forget that Palpatine had Sadow's amulet, suddenly that doesn't count I guess.



No, you should bring out the logic in why someone who plunders the ancients loot millenia after they made and receives their guidance is somehow going to beat these same people.

Dark Aristokrat
1. PRoof Korriban was heavily plundered....I really doubt Ragnos took kindly to people defiling his tomb. And who says Ragnos never made up a holocron?

WTF? Korriban was heavily plundered in KOTOR, by Freedan Nadd, by Exar Kun, and doubtless others.

And you need to PROVE that there is such a holocron, not expect other people to disprove YOUR assertion.

And Ragnos's empire would maybe last a week against the Imperial Empire. One blast of the Sun Crusher and that is all she wrote. If that fails, we have the galaxy gun, world devastator

This is venturing into another, already done thread.


...And according to the DS sourcebook, Palpatine had artifacts and powers and guidance from the golden age.

So he had ALL artifacts of power and relevance from this age, and all knowledge and guidance and powers and everything from this golden age of Sith and he had time to master it all better than the people who made it?

Are you reading that stuff before you click Send?

This would be like saying an archaeologist found some Egyptian tablets and items, communed with Egyptian spirits, and can pwn their greatest warrior. BULLSHIT.


2. You mean how Sadow used a superweapon on his ship? You can't really argue, I can provide numerous quotes, give sources and numbers:
1. NEC
2. The Sith War.
3. Fall of the Sith Empire.

Sadow used a superweapon on a ship. Palpatine used only the force

You seem to ignore the fact that Sadow obviously MADE the ship, and he was fully aware of its capabilities as he used it. Sadow's knowledge of the Force is easily better than Palpatine's, and saying otherwise is ridiculous.


shall I bring out quotes next? (Page numbers on the latter two don't work as they don't HAVE page numbers, but I digress)

Start first with stuff that relates, then worry about quotes.

Dark Aristokrat
lol.. Pincer!

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. PRoof Korriban was heavily plundered....I really doubt Ragnos took kindly to people defiling his tomb. And who says Ragnos never made up a holocron? And Ragnos's empire would maybe last a week against the Imperial Empire. One blast of the Sun Crusher and that is all she wrote. If that fails, we have the galaxy gun, world devastator...And according to the DS sourcebook, Palpatine had artifacts and powers and guidance from the golden age.

You missed my point. None of those affect force powers.

It was ransacked in KOTOR.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. You mean how Sadow used a superweapon on his ship? You can't really argue, I can provide numerous quotes, give sources and numbers:
1. NEC
2. The Sith War.
3. Fall of the Sith Empire.

Sadow used a superweapon on a ship. Palpatine used only the force

Shaky quotes, as I have seen you lying mutiple times.

Sadow's force powers were affected by the ship. Sidious' powers were not affected by any of the Imperial technology, meaning those don't count.

1. You lied out of the NEC. I personally saw it.
2 and 3. I don't believe you since only you say such and you are a liar.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
shall I bring out quotes next? (Page numbers on the latter two don't work as they don't HAVE page numbers, but I digress)

No one wants your BS quotes, scan pictures.

Illustrious
Triple pincer!

Dark Aristokrat
ONe more and it moves into cluster ****

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
1. PRoof Korriban was heavily plundered....I really doubt Ragnos took kindly to people defiling his tomb. And who says Ragnos never made up a holocron?

WTF? Korriban was heavily plundered in KOTOR, by Freedan Nadd, by Exar Kun, and doubtless others.

And you need to PROVE that there is such a holocron, not expect other people to disprove YOUR assertion.

And Ragnos's empire would maybe last a week against the Imperial Empire. One blast of the Sun Crusher and that is all she wrote. If that fails, we have the galaxy gun, world devastator

This is venturing into another, already done thread.


...And according to the DS sourcebook, Palpatine had artifacts and powers and guidance from the golden age.

So he had ALL artifacts of power and relevance from this age, and all knowledge and guidance and powers and everything from this golden age of Sith and he had time to master it all better than the people who made it?

Are you reading that stuff before you click Send?

This would be like saying an archaeologist found some Egyptian tablets and items, communed with Egyptian spirits, and can pwn their greatest warrior. BULLSHIT.


2. You mean how Sadow used a superweapon on his ship? You can't really argue, I can provide numerous quotes, give sources and numbers:
1. NEC
2. The Sith War.
3. Fall of the Sith Empire.

Sadow used a superweapon on a ship. Palpatine used only the force

You seem to ignore the fact that Sadow obviously MADE the ship, and he was fully aware of its capabilities as he used it. Sadow's knowledge of the Force is easily better than Palpatine's, and saying otherwise is ridiculous.


shall I bring out quotes next? (Page numbers on the latter two don't work as they don't HAVE page numbers, but I digress)

Start first with stuff that relates, then worry about quotes.

1. When did Nadd go to Korriban? My memory's sketchy here. Kun went there, that's true...however, Kun's main revenue of knowledge came from Yavin

2. I'll use the databank to help here: No one is quite sure how Palpatine was first introduced to the power of the dark side, or how he came to be Darth Plagueis' apprentice. He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times. He studied the ancient ruins on the Sith mausoleum world of Korriban. He unlocked secrets of the Force from a captured Jedi Holocron. The dark side energies flowing through Palpatine's body were so intense, that they ravaged his mortal frame. The very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/?id=eu

First paragraph, the rest is there.

3. Well, for years of studying WITH the Ancients, having their artifacts, as well as whatever the New Sith of Bane's gang had, as well as using feats the Ancient Sith have not....

4. If someone found egyptian scrolls, studied them religiously, learned all they could from them, learned at the feet of the finest pharaohs and warriors...

5. .....have you ever read Golden Age of the Sith, Janus? Sadow hardly ever expresses a view on anything minus "The Sith are absolute, we will conquer all." In between Dark Side sermons. The idea that the Sith were willing to follow someone so obviously murderous and ambitious, when one of their chief reasons for a war was avenging Simus...

6. Where was it even hinted Sadow created the ship himself? Could Bevel Lemelisk, say, have knowledge of how to destroy a planet as he helped design the Death Star?

Illustrious
Nadd didn't go to Korriban, it was an error there, but Kun definitely did. Revan also plundered from Malachor, and over 5000 years, it's hard to imagine it being possibly all protected. And it's even harder to imagine Sidious having it all.



In modern times. Dead giveaway there.

Kun, Sadow, Nadd, Kressh, Simus, Ragnos, Hord, they aren't exactly "modern" are they?

And yes, it does say he studied the ruins, but it sure doesn't say he knew all of their secrets or had all of their remnant artifacts. He also "unlocked secrets of the Force" yet got put on his ass by Mace Windu.

Clearly he is powerful, but he's not to the godlike level that the ancient Sith are. And the databank does nothing to prove he is either.



What feats did he use that ancient Sith did not have? He is never once (to my recollection) mentioned to have made a Sith artifact (like Sadow or Ragnos), he is never mentioned to have made a sith technique. He is recalled as the most powerful Sith in modern times, but the Sith were practically a complete nonfactor for a millenia, it's not like you've presented conclusive deductive reasoning to indicate he's superior.



And he can beat them? Guys who fought for a living? You'd think that practical experience + immersive learning is more effective than just transcribed learning.



And Hitler was all "The Arians are perfect, the Jews must die."

Not everyone followed him, but they ended up doing it when they felt they were wronged (a la the Germans feeling they were wronged following WWI).

And if you noticed, not all of them followed him.



It was mentioned Sadow created many powerful weapons, and the ship is always referenced as possessive, even by later individuals such as Kun and Aleema. Sure it's not absolute, but it's more absolute than "Sidious learned from a holocron." For all you know, he could have learned the Kama Sutra from there.

Bevel Lemelisk obviously had more advanced of a scientific knowledge than say... Han Solo.

Naga's ship was based on the force, he had to use the ship as a channeller of his force power. It's expressed when Aleema uses the ship also. Clearly we never are even so much as hinted that Sidious had the capacity to create that weapon.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
Nadd didn't go to Korriban, it was an error there, but Kun definitely did. Revan also plundered from Malachor, and over 5000 years, it's hard to imagine it being possibly all protected. And it's even harder to imagine Sidious having it all.



In modern times. Dead giveaway there.

Kun, Sadow, Nadd, Kressh, Simus, Ragnos, Hord, they aren't exactly "modern" are they?

And yes, it does say he studied the ruins, but it sure doesn't say he knew all of their secrets or had all of their remnant artifacts. He also "unlocked secrets of the Force" yet got put on his ass by Mace Windu.

Clearly he is powerful, but he's not to the godlike level that the ancient Sith are. And the databank does nothing to prove he is either.



What feats did he use that ancient Sith did not have? He is never once (to my recollection) mentioned to have made a Sith artifact (like Sadow or Ragnos), he is never mentioned to have made a sith technique. He is recalled as the most powerful Sith in modern times, but the Sith were practically a complete nonfactor for a millenia, it's not like you've presented conclusive deductive reasoning to indicate he's superior.



And he can beat them? Guys who fought for a living? You'd think that practical experience + immersive learning is more effective than just transcribed learning.



And Hitler was all "The Arians are perfect, the Jews must die."

Not everyone followed him, but they ended up doing it when they felt they were wronged (a la the Germans feeling they were wronged following WWI).

And if you noticed, not all of them followed him.



It was mentioned Sadow created many powerful weapons, and the ship is always referenced as possessive, even by later individuals such as Kun and Aleema. Sure it's not absolute, but it's more absolute than "Sidious learned from a holocron." For all you know, he could have learned the Kama Sutra from there.

Bevel Lemelisk obviously had more advanced of a scientific knowledge than say... Han Solo.

Naga's ship was based on the force, he had to use the ship as a channeller of his force power. It's expressed when Aleema uses the ship also. Clearly we never are even so much as hinted that Sidious had the capacity to create that weapon.

1. Kun wasn't on Korriban much at all. He was there briefly once, accepted the Darkside, looked at the ruins and went to Yavin

2. The databank gives no sway one way or the other there, but Empire's End and Dark Empire use 'ever' and 'all time' rather freely.

3. Believe me, I have numerous other sources, Databank aside: DE, EE, Sithisis...
Here's the issue: We've got people saying how godly the Ancient Sith are, but not a one of them does what Sidious shows himself capable of. He crafted quite a few things, however Luke destroyed most of them and the rest were destroyed on the Eclipse

4. The Sith in tht era didn't fight for a living...they stayed confined to a single space for 2000 years with the only blood one another's. Hell, it was considered RARE for such battles to occur...Naga taking out Simus was a deadly crime and the Sith were up in arms about avenging Simus. That's an advantage Sidious has over them: He's got a much better view of the galaxy than them. He's got their secrets, among others. And Sidious has plenty of his own experience....in 'Sithisis' we see how true that is.

5. Believe me, I know what Hitler was about...

6. The ship, however, was mentioned in several places to use a superweapon-not even with force power- to destroy the stars. It also had a cluster of force crystals to amplify one's power. I can see Sadow DESIGNING it, but not empowering it

calvin44
I wanna see those panels.....

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Kun wasn't on Korriban much at all. He was there briefly once, accepted the Darkside, looked at the ruins and went to Yavin


How many people do you know that visited Korriban more than once and got something from there ? Before Sidious did set one foot on the planet it was plundered by Exar, by Revan personally, by the Sith of the Academy. The point is that all Sith knowledge comes from the Ancient Sith Empire.



And the TOTJ comics use the term "godlike"...



No. The issue is that you have no proof that Sidious ever did something the Ancient Sith were capable of. If he had the knowledge to construct a ship like Sadow had why would he waste resources and time to construct all kinds of Superweapons ? Why did he need clone bodies to stay in the world when the Ancient Sith Lords have shown the ability to remain "alive" as spirits over thousands of years and could posess bodies (Ragnos in Jedi Academy).
If he has all that knowledge then why didn't he ever use it ?



How would Sidious be able to have all the knowledge the Ancient Sith had ? The Sith Empire was destroyed but the knowledge remained intact ? Armies of people plundered Korriban but all knowledge there remained there ? Malachor V was destroyed - but somehow the knowledge survived ?

And the Sith weren't up in arms to avenge Simus because it was a crime but because they thought that he was killed by "outsiders". Ragnos beheading him, taking the title of the Dark Lord wasn't considered to be a deadly crime or was it ?



Really ? I live in Germany and would like to know what you think...



The point is that Sidious didn't manage to construct something like that and he didn't manage to construct any other artifacts. And again you've argued yourself into a corner. Either you can say that Sidious didn't ever created artifacts like that - and then he's weaker than the Ancients or he did it and used them - and in this case you can't judge his power any longer because "artifacts don't count" in your opinion, right ?

w00t2112
Lightsnake even though, im noob, even in our history we have lost much knowledge, look at history, especially chinese history...over 5000 years obviously knowledge would be lost...this is completely off topic but read the 3 kingdoms, and you will see that one of the greatest marvel in medicine could already open a human skull, and cure a tumour, wheres even today we have trouble doing so, prove that sidious had every bit of knowledge that ragnos could...also reading your other threads, you just want to make NJO luke seem like a god...you are a fanboy and admit it

calvin44
nicely done.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
How many people do you know that visited Korriban more than once and got something from there ? Before Sidious did set one foot on the planet it was plundered by Exar, by Revan personally, by the Sith of the Academy. The point is that all Sith knowledge comes from the Ancient Sith Empire.



And the TOTJ comics use the term "godlike"...



No. The issue is that you have no proof that Sidious ever did something the Ancient Sith were capable of. If he had the knowledge to construct a ship like Sadow had why would he waste resources and time to construct all kinds of Superweapons ? Why did he need clone bodies to stay in the world when the Ancient Sith Lords have shown the ability to remain "alive" as spirits over thousands of years and could posess bodies (Ragnos in Jedi Academy).
If he has all that knowledge then why didn't he ever use it ?



How would Sidious be able to have all the knowledge the Ancient Sith had ? The Sith Empire was destroyed but the knowledge remained intact ? Armies of people plundered Korriban but all knowledge there remained there ? Malachor V was destroyed - but somehow the knowledge survived ?

And the Sith weren't up in arms to avenge Simus because it was a crime but because they thought that he was killed by "outsiders". Ragnos beheading him, taking the title of the Dark Lord wasn't considered to be a deadly crime or was it ?



Really ? I live in Germany and would like to know what you think...



The point is that Sidious didn't manage to construct something like that and he didn't manage to construct any other artifacts. And again you've argued yourself into a corner. Either you can say that Sidious didn't ever created artifacts like that - and then he's weaker than the Ancients or he did it and used them - and in this case you can't judge his power any longer because "artifacts don't count" in your opinion, right ?

1. Name one of them who got hands on training from Ragnos and the other Dark Lords. Name one who absorbed the power of a Sith Holocron and found relics dating back to the height of the empire. Plundered by Exar? When?

2. And show us something completely different.

3. Perhaps it was due to the lack of massive stores of force crystals and the dead technology of the Ancient Sith. The Death Star and Sun Crushers worked just as well...and Palpatine only annihilated a fleet, sucked the force energy and life from about six billion people on Byss, survived death several times...Notice Ragnos was only summoned, and live on Korriban...and they invited Palpatine to join them there. There's a difference between being totally immaterial and having living flesh. He used it when it suited him....ever read the short story 'Sithisis'?

4. Korriban'd be a big thing, Ziost would be another store of Dark Side knowledge...And I suppose the Ancient Sith Lords' spirits helping him out'd be another thing, as well as access to the knowledge of Bane's line AND the Prophets of the Dark Side from Millenial's line.

5. Lesse, Hitler....managed to inspire nations of people and ranks among men like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others as one of the most evil people to live?

6. Unlike the Ancients, Palpatine never USED artifacts to do what he did. They are never-not once-shown on his person. And the access to technology doesn't determine someone's strength. The Ancient Sith couldn't build World Devastators, would've made the conquest of the REpublic easier

Illustrious
Considering Exar was crowned by Ragnos, it's certainly not out of the question. Revan absorbed Tulak Hord's holocron, who was said to be the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith.



I wasn't aware having the knowledge to blow up stars, create armies of gigantic illusions, have sith artifacts that can power up future individuals, tinker with powerful alchemy in order to provide unnatural feats were anything less than godlike, but hey, maybe I'm completely offbase there. Just because they weren't shown on panel hacking up hundreds of Jedi at once doesn't indicate that the narrator is lying, especially when he so freely uses grandiose terms to describe their power.



Perhaps it was due to... Are you listening to yourself? Why are you making excuses for Palpatine? This shows personal bias because you're willing to compromise the evidence just so you can get your side to win.

Palpatine had the Galactic Empire, and you're telling me that the Ancient Sith had more resources to get a some force crystals? That they could create more powerful superweapons with their "dead technology"? That just indicates that the ancient Sith had more force knowledge than Palpatine.



So after 5000 years of the empire being dead (which alone would cause a good amount of information to be lost) and several plunders, he would still have access to all the previously stored data? Being taught by Ancient Sith Lords would make him equal to "the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful"? That doesn't equate.

Besides, Kun plundered many artifacts, he had training from Nadd, he defeated his spirit, he had a stronghold on Yavin. Revan plundered Malachor, he plundered the 5 great tombs on Korriban, he jacked Ajunta Pall's sword and Tulak Hord's holocron, and yet I don't see you arguing that he'll be Ragnos' equal. Yet somehow, Palpatine who comes after all of these people, has to take their scraps, and receives some training from 5000 year old spirits, is going to be that much stronger than all of them?

You're gonna need some logic to explain that one.



And it was never mentioned in TOTJ: Golden Age of the Sith that it was the amulet, not the person, who made it happen. Your point?

The Sith didn't use world devastators, correct, they just blew up the star near the planet. You must have forgotten that they met their end while on a ground battle, where Sadow as able to create a horde of tangible illusions.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Name one of them who got hands on training from Ragnos and the other Dark Lords. Name one who absorbed the power of a Sith Holocron and found relics dating back to the height of the empire. Plundered by Exar? When?

Exar sent his people to Korriban to gather knowledge and found the Sith Academy that we saw in KOTOR.

I seriously, I suggest that you read up on the Ancient times because anytime that anyone says anything about them that goes against your narrow-minded fanboy views, you don't know anything about it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. And show us something completely different.

Yeah, because being able to destroy stars and destroy things stronger then blast doors with your bare hands is so unimpressive. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Perhaps it was due to the lack of massive stores of force crystals and the dead technology of the Ancient Sith. The Death Star and Sun Crushers worked just as well...and Palpatine only annihilated a fleet, sucked the force energy and life from about six billion people on Byss, survived death several times...Notice Ragnos was only summoned, and live on Korriban...and they invited Palpatine to join them there. There's a difference between being totally immaterial and having living flesh. He used it when it suited him....ever read the short story 'Sithisis'?

Is the short story Sithisis a canonical one?

I've proven that Sidious destroying the fleet took less then one tenth the energy that destroying a star did. Why do you keep falling back on this less impressive feat?

Exar sucked the force energy from billions of Massassi on Yavin IV. Massassi are larger then humans, making the feat all the more impressive as they have much more energy in their bodies. Even still, the energy of 6 billion people is FAR less then what is required to destroy a star.

Sidious was only able to come back as flesh when there was a clone body ready for him to take control of. And there is actually a theory that states that the Sidious clone in DE wasn't the same one in the movies, but different as in how Jango and Boba are different. The reason is that all of the Imperials who knew the original and met the Clone thought that he was different and said that he was changed somehow.

The Death Star required millions of people to operate and had to charge up for several hours to destroy a single planet. The Sun Crusher cost more then the Death Star and required new torpedos to be able to run. Each torpedos cost more then 10 Imperial Star Destroyers. Not as effective as a single ship capable of destroying unlimited stars in far less time.

Your knowledge on Ancient Times is pathetic. Do you really think Tavion summonded Ragnos to takeover her body? They followed him and did his biding. BTW, Ragnos is still around as a spirit, but Sidious is really dead.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Korriban'd be a big thing, Ziost would be another store of Dark Side knowledge...And I suppose the Ancient Sith Lords' spirits helping him out'd be another thing, as well as access to the knowledge of Bane's line AND the Prophets of the Dark Side from Millenial's line.

Yes, Korriban is a big thing. Same with Ziost. Ragnos knows everything from back then, so he knows more then Sidious no matter what, especially since he is over a century old and has had more time to learn.

Oh, and although Korriban is huge, as is Ziost, it's not that hard to move everything on both of them. We, humans on earth, could take all of it in less then a thousand years. There have been 5,000 years for a million times more people to take a grab at it.

You don't understand how dumb this makes you look. Ohhh, yes, Marka taught him, so he must be uber!!1!!11!1 The funny thing is that this is Sidious vs. Ragnos. How is Marka going to teach Sidious anything he doesn't already know?

The Prophets of the Dark Side were weaklings. The people from Bane's time knew nothing that Ragnos did not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Lesse, Hitler....managed to inspire nations of people and ranks among men like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others as one of the most evil people to live?

Why are we talking about Hitler?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Unlike the Ancients, Palpatine never USED artifacts to do what he did. They are never-not once-shown on his person. And the access to technology doesn't determine someone's strength. The Ancient Sith couldn't build World Devastators, would've made the conquest of the REpublic easier

The stupidity of Sidious fanboys.... Palpatine never created a World Devastator. Scientist in his empire made them. I supposed Borsk has everything invented in the Republic while he ruled it, huh.

You haven't given any reasons for Amulets not counting on people. All you have done is started preaching more of you fanboy BS and tried to dodge the question. Now it's time to answer it. Why do amulets not make the Sih user more powerful?

Dark Aristokrat
So after 5000 years of the empire being dead (which alone would cause a good amount of information to be lost) and several plunders, he would still have access to all the previously stored data? Being taught by Ancient Sith Lords would make him equal to "the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful"? That doesn't equate.

Besides, Kun plundered many artifacts, he had training from Nadd, he defeated his spirit, he had a stronghold on Yavin. Revan plundered Malachor, he plundered the 5 great tombs on Korriban, he jacked Ajunta Pall's sword and Tulak Hord's holocron, and yet I don't see you arguing that he'll be Ragnos' equal. Yet somehow, Palpatine who comes after all of these people, has to take their scraps, and receives some training from 5000 year old spirits, is going to be that much stronger than all of them?

You're gonna need some logic to explain that one- Illustrious.


...

Uber quote there.

Darth_Glentract
BTW, if you leave a computer harddrive sitting unkept for 5,000 years, out of all of the information on it, less then 5% will be recoverable, not counting things like plundering.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
Considering Exar was crowned by Ragnos, it's certainly not out of the question. Revan absorbed Tulak Hord's holocron, who was said to be the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith.



I wasn't aware having the knowledge to blow up stars, create armies of gigantic illusions, have sith artifacts that can power up future individuals, tinker with powerful alchemy in order to provide unnatural feats were anything less than godlike, but hey, maybe I'm completely offbase there. Just because they weren't shown on panel hacking up hundreds of Jedi at once doesn't indicate that the narrator is lying, especially when he so freely uses grandiose terms to describe their power.



Perhaps it was due to... Are you listening to yourself? Why are you making excuses for Palpatine? This shows personal bias because you're willing to compromise the evidence just so you can get your side to win.

Palpatine had the Galactic Empire, and you're telling me that the Ancient Sith had more resources to get a some force crystals? That they could create more powerful superweapons with their "dead technology"? That just indicates that the ancient Sith had more force knowledge than Palpatine.



So after 5000 years of the empire being dead (which alone would cause a good amount of information to be lost) and several plunders, he would still have access to all the previously stored data? Being taught by Ancient Sith Lords would make him equal to "the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful"? That doesn't equate.

Besides, Kun plundered many artifacts, he had training from Nadd, he defeated his spirit, he had a stronghold on Yavin. Revan plundered Malachor, he plundered the 5 great tombs on Korriban, he jacked Ajunta Pall's sword and Tulak Hord's holocron, and yet I don't see you arguing that he'll be Ragnos' equal. Yet somehow, Palpatine who comes after all of these people, has to take their scraps, and receives some training from 5000 year old spirits, is going to be that much stronger than all of them?

You're gonna need some logic to explain that one.



And it was never mentioned in TOTJ: Golden Age of the Sith that it was the amulet, not the person, who made it happen. Your point?

The Sith didn't use world devastators, correct, they just blew up the star near the planet. You must have forgotten that they met their end while on a ground battle, where Sadow as able to create a horde of tangible illusions.

1. when did he absorb Tulak's Holocron? Game quote please. And Ragnos certainly showed Palpatine extreme honor as well. I don't recall exr being asked to join them in dominion of Korriban

2. Just like Sidious who could devastate fleets, create illusions, empower human beings with the power of the darkside....I mean, hell, not a single Sith who took on a Jedin that war walked out of it alive...and being butchered by Massassi?

3. Perhaps it's when people turn around and say 'But Palpatine couldn't build these ships!' perhaps, just perhaps, he wasn't on Ziost where there were gardens and gardens of force powerful crystals and made due with what he could? The Ancient Sith couldn't vaporize stars on the dot, it was outright stated they used superweapons. And more powerful superweapons? they could destroy a star....Palpatine's Sun Crusher could vaporized a solar system.

4. What part of 'He was taught by the spirits of the ancients who CREATED that knowledge' is unclear here? And Kun plundered many artifact,s have you READ Dark Lords of the Sith? And I'm accused of bias...no, it doesn't matter Palpatine received hands on instruction from people who actively made that weapons and had that knowledge on the strongest area of the dark side in the galaxy...

5. Tangible illusions? And in Dark Lord sof the Sith, it's outright stated on the amulet when Kun uses it. And the Sith blowing up stars was
A. A massive last resort
B. Stated to use the 'power of the ship'...nothing about Sadow there. C. Technology =/= force power, so unless you count Palpatine imbuing the latest technology of the empire in DE with the power of the Dark Side.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Exar sent his people to Korriban to gather knowledge and found the Sith Academy that we saw in KOTOR.

I seriously, I suggest that you read up on the Ancient times because anytime that anyone says anything about them that goes against your narrow-minded fanboy views, you don't know anything about it.



Yeah, because being able to destroy stars and destroy things stronger then blast doors with your bare hands is so unimpressive. roll eyes (sarcastic)



Is the short story Sithisis a canonical one?

I've proven that Sidious destroying the fleet took less then one tenth the energy that destroying a star did. Why do you keep falling back on this less impressive feat?

Exar sucked the force energy from billions of Massassi on Yavin IV. Massassi are larger then humans, making the feat all the more impressive as they have much more energy in their bodies. Even still, the energy of 6 billion people is FAR less then what is required to destroy a star.

Sidious was only able to come back as flesh when there was a clone body ready for him to take control of. And there is actually a theory that states that the Sidious clone in DE wasn't the same one in the movies, but different as in how Jango and Boba are different. The reason is that all of the Imperials who knew the original and met the Clone thought that he was different and said that he was changed somehow.

The Death Star required millions of people to operate and had to charge up for several hours to destroy a single planet. The Sun Crusher cost more then the Death Star and required new torpedos to be able to run. Each torpedos cost more then 10 Imperial Star Destroyers. Not as effective as a single ship capable of destroying unlimited stars in far less time.

Your knowledge on Ancient Times is pathetic. Do you really think Tavion summonded Ragnos to takeover her body? They followed him and did his biding. BTW, Ragnos is still around as a spirit, but Sidious is really dead.



Yes, Korriban is a big thing. Same with Ziost. Ragnos knows everything from back then, so he knows more then Sidious no matter what, especially since he is over a century old and has had more time to learn.

Oh, and although Korriban is huge, as is Ziost, it's not that hard to move everything on both of them. We, humans on earth, could take all of it in less then a thousand years. There have been 5,000 years for a million times more people to take a grab at it.

You don't understand how dumb this makes you look. Ohhh, yes, Marka taught him, so he must be uber!!1!!11!1 The funny thing is that this is Sidious vs. Ragnos. How is Marka going to teach Sidious anything he doesn't already know?

The Prophets of the Dark Side were weaklings. The people from Bane's time knew nothing that Ragnos did not.



Why are we talking about Hitler?



The stupidity of Sidious fanboys.... Palpatine never created a World Devastator. Scientist in his empire made them. I supposed Borsk has everything invented in the Republic while he ruled it, huh.

You haven't given any reasons for Amulets not counting on people. All you have done is started preaching more of you fanboy BS and tried to dodge the question. Now it's time to answer it. Why do amulets not make the Sih user more powerful?

1. Yeah, mmmhmm. Exar sent his people. Would that be Crado doing that? Or Ulic, who he hadn't seen in years? Or one of the brainwashed knights he sent to their deaths? Or-no, that really covered it for Kun's followers during the Sith War.
2. When you're not doing a thing to blow up the star, it's rather unimpressive. I keep hearing 'Oh Palpatine had this, Palpatine used that.' He's never shown to be handling an artifact once when he does what he does.
3. Sithisis's canoninity is undisputed and it contradicts nothing. And PROVEN? You mean how you 'proved' Hapes had a 100,000 worlds? And yes, yes, I recall how you proved it and ignored Palpatine never used a ship or amulets. And yeah, Exar took the life force from six million? Nice to see you make up numbers! SUpport this figure now...and was it before or after he was attatched to a giant obelisk the Massassi crafted for specifically a purpose as to give their lives to the Dark Lord?
4. Palpatine possessed Jeng Droga. That sort of tosses that theory out the window.
5. Which is why Sadow says 'We have to make use of the remaining power the ship has left!' Sounds real unlimited. And considering we never see that the Sun Crusher or Galaxy Gun had such strict limitations minus 'reload, repeat'
6. Tavion was also holding Ragnos's scepter, his pathway to the world. And btw, Sidious isn't dead, his spirit will never die. Brand himself said they couldn't destroy Palpatine's spirit, but every Jedi is keeping him in the Dark Side..
7. Korriban's knowledge is also rather compact to the Valley of Dark Lords. Ziost's capital was also the center of knowledge.
8. Palpatine didn't JUST learn from MArka, but his predecessors as well, and Plageuis who knew techniques no other Sith before him knew. And the Prophets of the Dark Side weaklings? why does the Dark Side sorucebook call them a group extremely powerful in the dark side? Why was Sedriss capable of fighting Ood Bnar evenly in a force battle?
9. PAlpatine also imbued Umek Leth's technology with the dark side. And maybe, just maybe, amulets shouldn't count just as much as steroids don't count in a boxing match

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. when did he absorb Tulak's Holocron? Game quote please. And Ragnos certainly showed Palpatine extreme honor as well. I don't recall exr being asked to join them in dominion of Korriban


He did get it and in KotoR II Kreia tells the Exile that Tulak created a holocron and Revan took it and kept it (at least it has never shown up again). And we never had some Sith Lord coming to Korriban asking for a way to find immortality before Sidious. So what ?



Where did you ever see a Sith in the war fighting Jedi in a 1vs1 situation, eh ? They were either killed while being outnumbered (by Massassi, other troops) or died in other ways (like Kressh) but we never saw a single Jedi fighting a single Sith and walk away alive. On the same level I could say Ooroo faced Sith and didn't survive it - completly ignoring the fact that he sacrificed himself. Ha ha. Great show.



Did Palpatine personally create the Sun Crusher ? No. In fact it wasn't even present before he died. So what ? He had some people designing something for him and you count that as one of his personal feats ?
And the point remained that IF Palpatine could have built stuff like the Ancient Sith Lords he WOULD have done it. He didn't and that can only mean that he couldn't. Why would he waste time and resources to create superweapons and let people design superweapons when he could easily have built stuff able to destroy stars and even star systems based on force chrystals and force powers ?



Oh wait...in other threats you've argued that the Ancient Sith have done this in "rituals" but suddenly Sidious can do it alone. And the only person we have seen that did own such a ship was Sadow. I wonder how Sadow would have been able to teach Sidious. And yes, he received some knowledge from the ancients - but all of it ? "Hey...I have some hours time. Please teach me everything you've learned in the centuries of your life."



Oh great.
Because it's a "massive last resort" it can't be done in other situations ? BS. Does it matter if it's the power of the ship when they can always use it ? No. Technology isn't equal to force power ? Then please follow your own rules and don't use the Sun Crusher as a proof for Sidious power.



Either he never handled artifacts because he wasn't able to produce them or he did handle artifacts and we just didn't see them. And notice that "artifacts" can be force crystals put into a lightsaber, amulets hidden under cloaks, gauntlets, armors parts and so on - you won't even notice them.



ROFL. The best thing I've ever heard. "Sithisis" is part of the Star Wars Visionaries a series that had Darth Maul return to catch the 3 year old Luke Skywalker ("Old Wounds"wink. Sidious is eaten by a giant worm and taken back in time to his "Palpatine" appearance and starts messing around in the events of the Clone Wars. The greatest part of course is when he's cursing Padme's unborn children, not to mention creating "force lightning storms" to scare the little younglings in the Jedi temple. This story is a uncanon as something can be - but nice that it's "undisputed canon". ROFL.



I wonder why Sidious didn't simply use the same ritual Kun wanted to use before the Jedi arrived at Yavin 4 to become unrestricted by his mortal body and able to travel the Galaxy as he likes. Instead he used weak clone bodies to become immortal. Sounds like a bad idea for me...



Yeah. Sidious will never die. That's why he's influencing people post DE all the time as people like Nadd, Kun and Ragnos did, right ?



Oh great. So you have the Tetan's flatening everything in two very small areas but the knowledge remains intact. Then Revan and his Sith walk in and plunder the entire place. Some artifacts and holocrons were moved to Ossus with many being destroyed when the surface of the planet was devasted by the supernova Aleema had unleashed using Sadow's ship. You have Malachor V destroyed with (canonically) no person who knew the powers stored on the planet surviving the destruction. And after 5,000 years passing by no small bit of knowledge was lost and Sidious did have it all ?



He didn't knew the techniques Plaqueis used and he wasn't able to use them. Otherwise he could simply have created himself a uber powerful host body by manipulating midi-chlorians. Something he didn't do...



If somebody takes steroids and engages with you in a fight were everything (steroids included) are legal. Now he beats you: Didn't he win because he was using steroids ?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
He did get it and in KotoR II Kreia tells the Exile that Tulak created a holocron and Revan took it and kept it (at least it has never shown up again). And we never had some Sith Lord coming to Korriban asking for a way to find immortality before Sidious. So what ?



Where did you ever see a Sith in the war fighting Jedi in a 1vs1 situation, eh ? They were either killed while being outnumbered (by Massassi, other troops) or died in other ways (like Kressh) but we never saw a single Jedi fighting a single Sith and walk away alive. On the same level I could say Ooroo faced Sith and didn't survive it - completly ignoring the fact that he sacrificed himself. Ha ha. Great show.



Did Palpatine personally create the Sun Crusher ? No. In fact it wasn't even present before he died. So what ? He had some people designing something for him and you count that as one of his personal feats ?
And the point remained that IF Palpatine could have built stuff like the Ancient Sith Lords he WOULD have done it. He didn't and that can only mean that he couldn't. Why would he waste time and resources to create superweapons and let people design superweapons when he could easily have built stuff able to destroy stars and even star systems based on force chrystals and force powers ?



Oh wait...in other threats you've argued that the Ancient Sith have done this in "rituals" but suddenly Sidious can do it alone. And the only person we have seen that did own such a ship was Sadow. I wonder how Sadow would have been able to teach Sidious. And yes, he received some knowledge from the ancients - but all of it ? "Hey...I have some hours time. Please teach me everything you've learned in the centuries of your life."



Oh great.
Because it's a "massive last resort" it can't be done in other situations ? BS. Does it matter if it's the power of the ship when they can always use it ? No. Technology isn't equal to force power ? Then please follow your own rules and don't use the Sun Crusher as a proof for Sidious power.



Either he never handled artifacts because he wasn't able to produce them or he did handle artifacts and we just didn't see them. And notice that "artifacts" can be force crystals put into a lightsaber, amulets hidden under cloaks, gauntlets, armors parts and so on - you won't even notice them.



ROFL. The best thing I've ever heard. "Sithisis" is part of the Star Wars Visionaries a series that had Darth Maul return to catch the 3 year old Luke Skywalker ("Old Wounds"wink. Sidious is eaten by a giant worm and taken back in time to his "Palpatine" appearance and starts messing around in the events of the Clone Wars. The greatest part of course is when he's cursing Padme's unborn children, not to mention creating "force lightning storms" to scare the little younglings in the Jedi temple. This story is a uncanon as something can be - but nice that it's "undisputed canon". ROFL.



I wonder why Sidious didn't simply use the same ritual Kun wanted to use before the Jedi arrived at Yavin 4 to become unrestricted by his mortal body and able to travel the Galaxy as he likes. Instead he used weak clone bodies to become immortal. Sounds like a bad idea for me...



Yeah. Sidious will never die. That's why he's influencing people post DE all the time as people like Nadd, Kun and Ragnos did, right ?



Oh great. So you have the Tetan's flatening everything in two very small areas but the knowledge remains intact. Then Revan and his Sith walk in and plunder the entire place. Some artifacts and holocrons were moved to Ossus with many being destroyed when the surface of the planet was devasted by the supernova Aleema had unleashed using Sadow's ship. You have Malachor V destroyed with (canonically) no person who knew the powers stored on the planet surviving the destruction. And after 5,000 years passing by no small bit of knowledge was lost and Sidious did have it all ?



He didn't knew the techniques Plaqueis used and he wasn't able to use them. Otherwise he could simply have created himself a uber powerful host body by manipulating midi-chlorians. Something he didn't do...



If somebody takes steroids and engages with you in a fight were everything (steroids included) are legal. Now he beats you: Didn't he win because he was using steroids ?
1. Proof he 'absorbed' Tulak's holocron now?
2. Memit Nadill and his companions: All shown fighting NUMEROUS Massassi a few Sith....guess who lives and who dies? Some Sith Lords, being cut down by a padawan....and by the way, being cut down by Sith and sacrificing yourself to annihilate their army are two very different things.
3. Sour grapes much? Proof Sadow created that ship alone. And considering Palaptine was having a ship like Sadow's to a FAR greater degree designed....I suppose if Palpatine had access to massive stores of force crystals like on Ziost...And maybe, just maybe, it's a big galaxy and fear works better when it's tangible? He said something to this effect in Dark Empire. And he imbued a lot of his new creations of Byss with the Dark Side, including the alchemy creatures he created.
4. Sidious is bare armed, bare legged and wearing an open robe only....where're those artifacts? OH wait, he wasn't using any?
5. Maybe because unlike Kun, he didn't have access to a gargantuan obelisk infused with the power of the dark side with an entire race giving up their souls? He was already sucking the life energies of billions on Byss. Go on, name ONE THING Kun EVER did when not in possession of amulets/gauntlet/sother Ancient gear. Weak clone bodies? I suppose JEng Drog was weak....the clones only failed because of Lumiya and her sabateur plot with Nefta and Sa-Di...and wait a sec, I recall Kun screaming for Ulic not to leave him alone in the dark...what's this about freely travelling the galaxy? Kun screwed up the ritual, he said himself he didn't fully understand it
6. Sithisis is in the continuity. It disputes no canon unlike Old Wounds. Other stories that're canon there include Prototypes and the Grievous one
7. Nadd influencing people post DE? His spirit was annihilated four thousand years prior, 1 and 2: I don't recall Kun and Ragnos ever establishing themselves as major powers after physical deaths...Ragnos was foiled by Jaden Korr and Kun's going mad from isolation.
8. Take up the knowledge stuff with the Darkside sourcebook instead of me. Once more, I do suppose the idea that a lot of Ancient Sith spirits helping you out with that knowledge thing would be a MASSIVE benefit, but....
9. Proof Plageuis knew what Palpatine said he did. It's only ever been implied or hinted.

and who says steroids are allowed? Is he a better fighter than me without the steroids? If so, why would he need steroids?

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Proof he 'absorbed' Tulak's holocron now?


He gathered it, learned from it and took it with him into the unknown regions.



Since you have already shown your incompetence when it comes to destinquish "Massassi" from "Sith", I won't bother to discuss that point with you any longer. I wonder were all those "Sith Lords" fighting and gettin "pwned" come from.



Sadow was the only person who used such a ship. Why would anybody "helping" him let Sadow keep it, eh ? Why would somebody even help Sadow building something like that. Logic ?
And Palpatine was having a ship like Sadows ? Were ? Kept under his pillow ? The point is that everything Sidious could possibly know about was knowledge that Ragnos did posess but he was using it for over a century. So how can Sidious be compareable to him even estimating that they have the same amount of knowledge ? That would make them equal in force knowledge (but Ragnos having more time for practice it) and in a fight you can't convince me that Sidious would be able to deal with Ragnos - a huge, muscle packed dude wielding a sceptre that can do massive damage via force to other people and a sword that is bigger than Sidious himself.



Where exactly ? Before he creates force storms in DE you can see that he's wearing some metal armor when Luke cuts his hand of since you have those nice metal rings flying away. His "open robe" in the duel that is closed in front of his chest so you wouldn't be able to see an amulet if he was carrying one ? The point is you estimate that Sidious can create artifacts and for some mysterious reason he didn't use them. Logic ?



Oh great. Now Kun exterminated himself. It didn't have anything to do with thousands of Jedi over Yavin 4 who attacked him at that point.



A time travel which could just be a dream of Sidious himself is "canon" nowadays and it doesn't contradict anything ? So he cursed Padme's children and the curse was doing nothing. He went to talk to the ancient Sith and nobody noticed it ? He left his office and was gone to aid Anakin and nobody noticed it ? And where was his "original" spirit gone at this time when he posessed his own former body, eh ? Cut it...the Visionaries don't even come close to be counted as "canon" or part of the continuity.



Do you just play stupid or are you stupid ? Nadd manipulated people 400 years after his physical death. Ragnos caused trouble 5,000 years after his physical death. Kun nearly destroyed Luke's entire academy by use of his force powers and manipulating Luke's students. Sidious after his final defeat didn't return to do something like that but he's still greater than Nadd, Kun and Ragnos ?



So you suppose the idea a lot of Ancient Sith spirits - people that lived for centuries - can give you all knowledge they archieved in their lifetime in a very short amount of time when you've come to ask them about a special issue ? To learn everything the Ancient Sith had to offer Sidious would have had to stay with them for years. Something he didn't do.



I'm sure you realize that you only kicked your own argument with that statement, right ? If Plagueis didn't have knowledge "nobody had before" he couldn't have taught it to Sidious...



Your use of "logic" is unbelieveable. So a fighter who's already good only gets better using steroids. He never fights without steroids but somehow you can tell how could he would be without them ? And if you search for "unlimited power" and want to "rule the Galaxy" everything is allowed. Since when are "Sith" considered to be "fair", huh ?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
He gathered it, learned from it and took it with him into the unknown regions.



Since you have already shown your incompetence when it comes to destinquish "Massassi" from "Sith", I won't bother to discuss that point with you any longer. I wonder were all those "Sith Lords" fighting and gettin "pwned" come from.



Sadow was the only person who used such a ship. Why would anybody "helping" him let Sadow keep it, eh ? Why would somebody even help Sadow building something like that. Logic ?
And Palpatine was having a ship like Sadows ? Were ? Kept under his pillow ? The point is that everything Sidious could possibly know about was knowledge that Ragnos did posess but he was using it for over a century. So how can Sidious be compareable to him even estimating that they have the same amount of knowledge ? That would make them equal in force knowledge (but Ragnos having more time for practice it) and in a fight you can't convince me that Sidious would be able to deal with Ragnos - a huge, muscle packed dude wielding a sceptre that can do massive damage via force to other people and a sword that is bigger than Sidious himself.



Where exactly ? Before he creates force storms in DE you can see that he's wearing some metal armor when Luke cuts his hand of since you have those nice metal rings flying away. His "open robe" in the duel that is closed in front of his chest so you wouldn't be able to see an amulet if he was carrying one ? The point is you estimate that Sidious can create artifacts and for some mysterious reason he didn't use them. Logic ?



Oh great. Now Kun exterminated himself. It didn't have anything to do with thousands of Jedi over Yavin 4 who attacked him at that point.



A time travel which could just be a dream of Sidious himself is "canon" nowadays and it doesn't contradict anything ? So he cursed Padme's children and the curse was doing nothing. He went to talk to the ancient Sith and nobody noticed it ? He left his office and was gone to aid Anakin and nobody noticed it ? And where was his "original" spirit gone at this time when he posessed his own former body, eh ? Cut it...the Visionaries don't even come close to be counted as "canon" or part of the continuity.



Do you just play stupid or are you stupid ? Nadd manipulated people 400 years after his physical death. Ragnos caused trouble 5,000 years after his physical death. Kun nearly destroyed Luke's entire academy by use of his force powers and manipulating Luke's students. Sidious after his final defeat didn't return to do something like that but he's still greater than Nadd, Kun and Ragnos ?



So you suppose the idea a lot of Ancient Sith spirits - people that lived for centuries - can give you all knowledge they archieved in their lifetime in a very short amount of time when you've come to ask them about a special issue ? To learn everything the Ancient Sith had to offer Sidious would have had to stay with them for years. Something he didn't do.



I'm sure you realize that you only kicked your own argument with that statement, right ? If Plagueis didn't have knowledge "nobody had before" he couldn't have taught it to Sidious...



Your use of "logic" is unbelieveable. So a fighter who's already good only gets better using steroids. He never fights without steroids but somehow you can tell how could he would be without them ? And if you search for "unlimited power" and want to "rule the Galaxy" everything is allowed. Since when are "Sith" considered to be "fair", huh ?

1. That translates to 'Absorbed?'

2. I don't think Massassi wear elaborate armor with horned headresses...or golden armor and flowing capes. Look at the scene where egyptian looking JEdi crouches over his dead enemy's corpse....or the Massassi decide to butcher all the Sith...or Ludo's death....or when Memit kills that other nameless lord who was leading the Coruscant charge.

3. Kressh's ship was remarkably similar to Sadow's. Why would Sadow's followers and allies help him experiment and build ships? How did Sadow build that ship while ragnos was totally ignorant of it or disapproved of it? A ship that can blow up stars sure as heck could cause civil unrest with the Sith....when did you see Ragnos's sword now by the by? And considering Ragnos held Sidious in incredible esteem as it was....not to mention Sidious possessed the power to, on his own, vaporize a fleet WITHOUT ships and crystals...And you know he didn't use them how? He didn't have them on him at that particular point or when he did what we saw him do but they were certainly there in his room when he spoke to Leia and showed her Baas's Holocron and discussed in the DSC

4. Kun himself said he didn't entirely understand the ritual and still tried it...did he really underestimate the JEdi that much? Arrogance is a usual Sith failing, along with betrayal, but still...

5. Tell it to the Sith themselves...in Empire's End...It'd been ten years since he last visited....that's...three years prior to ROTJ. With Vader as an administrator and the fact he used to vacation to byss often enough, and had a youth once...I don't think it'd be too hard to vanish for a bit. And perhaps you missed it, but in Sithisis there's no time travel. The idea was that he undergoes that dark side ritual, uses the dark side to do whatever he did and at the end, exits, fixes himself up and goes to greet the senate as Senator Palpatine. And explain the canonical Grievous story and the canonical Durge story.

6. Nadd manipulated people? That ended with him geting vaporized. Ragnos was reduced to helping HETHRIR'S leftovers and Kun? He was tricked by Padawans and told off by Corran Horn.

7. PRoof he didn't stay on Korriban for years? he was young once, he took many trips there and had their holocrons, as well as ample time to study the ruins. Not to mention Byss, which was a world thick in the dark side

8. Waaaait, 'knowledge unknown before' has to equate to exactly what Sidious said it did? Saving people from dying and influencing the midichlorians and the like? That HAS to be that and only that? What would influencing the midichlorians have to do with it anyways? Settle back and hope the kid grows healthy?

10. If it can work like that, Ragnos walks into the arena and finds a note jsut before the Death Star Vapes the planet. Using this 'When are Sith fair' logic is fun...hell, they're both likely to just destroy the other in an underhanded manner rather than fight. They fight fairly or they don't fight at all, which is it?

Darth_Glentract
Lightsnake, who don't you quote each paragraph individually? It doesn't take very much time to do(maybe 15 seconds) and it makes it a ton easier to see what you're talking about.

calvin44
Who cares?

Darth_Glentract
I'm just saying it would be easier to read and understand.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. That translates to 'Absorbed?'


That translates into: Look a piece of Sith knowledge Sidious couldn't have access to.



The egyptian looking Jedi ? You're talking about Tuknatan ? So a Jedi Master that is somewhere 3 metres in hight was able to contend with a Sith who was less powerful than Sadow ? That proofs what exactly since we don't know how that Sith did die ? The Massassi surprising them by betrayal and outnumbering them ? Ludo getting killed by Sadow ? And Memit Nadill, Empress Teta's advisor, so another Jedi Master (considering that his lightsaber looks as if it had electrum applied to it - that would make him a Council Member), did defeat a nother nameless (and therefore unimportant) Sith. I wonder where you get all that Sith "LORD" stuff from. Have you seen the same people appearing to be part of the governing council of the Sith Empire ?



Kressh's ship was similar to Sadow's ? Did you see some superweapon installed able to blow stars up or did you ever see Kressh using it that way ? Could have been helpful to defeat Sadow before the Great Hyperspace War started. And why would Ragnos care about something like that ? He was the unquestioned ruler over an Empire and didn't want to expand it. What use would he have for a ship like that ?



Jedi Academy Game...



Wow. Ragnos also told Exar Kun that he would be the one to lead the Sith to another Golden Age. Is that some "high esteem" ? And what do you want to tell me know ? That Sidious can use artifacts or not depending on if you want him to do it or not ?



He did try to seperate his spirit from his body to run rampant to the galaxy and it took thousands of Jedi to stop him from doing so but they only managed to bind his spirit to Yavin 4 where he was able to run around as he liked, destroy objects (the Holocron), kill force users, attack them (Luke and his students) - force choking them or simply knock them out (Dorskk 81), control their dreams and so on.



I was talking about the time when he was Chancelor and since he had Jedi sitting in his office every day, Senate meetings and other stuff to do I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been able to "vanish" for a while as he liked.



The Visionaries are stories based on single pieces of Artwork. The events mentioned didn't affect any Chronologies or timelines so far and so it's basically speculation if they're canon or not. Yet having Palpatine go throug a massive Sith ritual basically manipulating events in the entire Galaxy as he likes without anybody interferring (via force) or noticing anything is just an impossibility. And even if he did - he got that ritual from a holocron meaning you would have "ancient Sith knowledge" there again.



Nadd was manipulating all rulers of Onderon for 400 years and then Exar Kun and - to a certain extend - the Keto's. And Exar - the most powerful student 600 year old Vodo had so far in his life, wasn't able to do something against it until he found Sadow's amulet. And Ragnos could command people like Sadow and Kressh around, influence Exar and Ulic 1,000 years after his death and teach stuff to your beloved Sidious 5,000 years after his death.



It's mentioned that Sidious never went to that places before he killed Plagueis and he started his political career in the age of 32 (when he was elected as Senator of Naboo). And considering the fact that the ancients were even discussing to give them a certain information when he was at the top of his power 60 years later, I doubt that they taught him really important or powerful stuff when he visited the place for the first time.



Yeah. It has to equate exactly that since Sidious mentions it just to give the statement that this was something that "nobody archieved before".



You still keep up comparing uncomparable situations. Can Sidious put the death star into his pocket while facing Ragnos ? No. Can Ragnos carry all his artifacts with him ? Yes. See the point ? By the way: Have we ever seen Ragnos using artifacts while ruling over the Sith Empire ?
The point is you move the individuals to an area with every equipment they have and use and let them fight. A "Sith Sword" can be seen as a dark side artifact so Ragnos isn't allowed to use a weapon ? Lightsabers are "jedi artifacts" so they are fighting without them ? That reduces all possible fights to X vs Y without weapons and naked and nothing else.
And if the situation would be like you descripe it, Sidious would walk into the throne room on his death star and find a not just before Ragnos throws the core of a star at the station or turns the next star into a supernova destroying it.

In a duel with all equipment they have it's Ragnos (+ possible artifacts) with his sceptre and sith sword vs Sidious (+ possible artifacts) with his lightsaber. And Sidious, who didn't grow up in a martial culture fighting the entire day and who only has knowledge that Ragnos possessed already (and even not everything Ragnos did know) would get destroyed there. Period.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
That translates into: Look a piece of Sith knowledge Sidious couldn't have access to.



The egyptian looking Jedi ? You're talking about Tuknatan ? So a Jedi Master that is somewhere 3 metres in hight was able to contend with a Sith who was less powerful than Sadow ? That proofs what exactly since we don't know how that Sith did die ? The Massassi surprising them by betrayal and outnumbering them ? Ludo getting killed by Sadow ? And Memit Nadill, Empress Teta's advisor, so another Jedi Master (considering that his lightsaber looks as if it had electrum applied to it - that would make him a Council Member), did defeat a nother nameless (and therefore unimportant) Sith. I wonder where you get all that Sith "LORD" stuff from. Have you seen the same people appearing to be part of the governing council of the Sith Empire ?



Kressh's ship was similar to Sadow's ? Did you see some superweapon installed able to blow stars up or did you ever see Kressh using it that way ? Could have been helpful to defeat Sadow before the Great Hyperspace War started. And why would Ragnos care about something like that ? He was the unquestioned ruler over an Empire and didn't want to expand it. What use would he have for a ship like that ?



Jedi Academy Game...



Wow. Ragnos also told Exar Kun that he would be the one to lead the Sith to another Golden Age. Is that some "high esteem" ? And what do you want to tell me know ? That Sidious can use artifacts or not depending on if you want him to do it or not ?



He did try to seperate his spirit from his body to run rampant to the galaxy and it took thousands of Jedi to stop him from doing so but they only managed to bind his spirit to Yavin 4 where he was able to run around as he liked, destroy objects (the Holocron), kill force users, attack them (Luke and his students) - force choking them or simply knock them out (Dorskk 81), control their dreams and so on.



I was talking about the time when he was Chancelor and since he had Jedi sitting in his office every day, Senate meetings and other stuff to do I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been able to "vanish" for a while as he liked.



The Visionaries are stories based on single pieces of Artwork. The events mentioned didn't affect any Chronologies or timelines so far and so it's basically speculation if they're canon or not. Yet having Palpatine go throug a massive Sith ritual basically manipulating events in the entire Galaxy as he likes without anybody interferring (via force) or noticing anything is just an impossibility. And even if he did - he got that ritual from a holocron meaning you would have "ancient Sith knowledge" there again.



Nadd was manipulating all rulers of Onderon for 400 years and then Exar Kun and - to a certain extend - the Keto's. And Exar - the most powerful student 600 year old Vodo had so far in his life, wasn't able to do something against it until he found Sadow's amulet. And Ragnos could command people like Sadow and Kressh around, influence Exar and Ulic 1,000 years after his death and teach stuff to your beloved Sidious 5,000 years after his death.



It's mentioned that Sidious never went to that places before he killed Plagueis and he started his political career in the age of 32 (when he was elected as Senator of Naboo). And considering the fact that the ancients were even discussing to give them a certain information when he was at the top of his power 60 years later, I doubt that they taught him really important or powerful stuff when he visited the place for the first time.



Yeah. It has to equate exactly that since Sidious mentions it just to give the statement that this was something that "nobody archieved before".



You still keep up comparing uncomparable situations. Can Sidious put the death star into his pocket while facing Ragnos ? No. Can Ragnos carry all his artifacts with him ? Yes. See the point ? By the way: Have we ever seen Ragnos using artifacts while ruling over the Sith Empire ?
The point is you move the individuals to an area with every equipment they have and use and let them fight. A "Sith Sword" can be seen as a dark side artifact so Ragnos isn't allowed to use a weapon ? Lightsabers are "jedi artifacts" so they are fighting without them ? That reduces all possible fights to X vs Y without weapons and naked and nothing else.
And if the situation would be like you descripe it, Sidious would walk into the throne room on his death star and find a not just before Ragnos throws the core of a star at the station or turns the next star into a supernova destroying it.

In a duel with all equipment they have it's Ragnos (+ possible artifacts) with his sceptre and sith sword vs Sidious (+ possible artifacts) with his lightsaber. And Sidious, who didn't grow up in a martial culture fighting the entire day and who only has knowledge that Ragnos possessed already (and even not everything Ragnos did know) would get destroyed there. Period.

1. Except from Tulak Hord himself.

2. PErhaps, because we see the Sith Memit fights in a lord's golden armor....was Shar Dakhan the third most powerful Sith? He had a name after all...not to mention said armroed Sith was shown leading the attack on Coruscant....and wonderfully powerful Sith, getting slaughtered and surprised by a group of Massassi...no defenses whatsoever.

3. I'm REALLY sure KRessh, who wanted to preserve the Empire wanted to start blowing up his own stars and worlds...and with a ship like that, Ragnos could have expanded that empire plenty.

4. And a game's expression of something is canon now? We see Ludo Kressh's war sword to be little more than a pike in KOTOR when we see him dueling Naga with it in Golden Age.

5. Ragnos told him because of him the Sith would never die and he'd rightly earned the title. And I'd say inviting someone to join you and the others over Korriban's dominion is quite the esteem. Oh, yes, unlike Exar, Sidious is never seen using those artifacts

6. Once more: HE was connected to Yavin. I, Jedi pretty much confirmed that when corrsan destroyed his statue. And it didn't 'take' thousands of Jedi to stop him, he was crushed and overwhelmed by them, but he never matched them for power. and once more: he said himself he didn't necessarily understand the ritual.

7. he didn't go anywhere during the Clone wars certainly...that's three years compared to....fifty? He had his aids covering for him, too....I'm sure noone noticed him running off to Mustafar.

8. Nadd didn't enter into anything until Arca opened up his tomb. And Exar couldn't exactly confront a spirit who stood well out of harm's reach. And Ragnos could command a shortsighted moron and a whining fool, big achievment. The Sith didn't exactly bat a hundred minus ragnos, Tulak and Ajunta back then.

9. Proof he never went to those places before he killed Plageuis. the DS sorucebook said he learned the darkest secrets Korriban and the Sith had to offer there.

10. Can Sidious trick Ragnos, not show up and simply vaporize the planet? Yes. And Sidious will also be using knowledge before AND after ragnos's time....and how about this: Nothing to enchance their force ability. Nothing to increase or amplify it. Just them as they are without the toys.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Except from Tulak Hord himself.


Who was never seen being present somewhere. And Sidious wasn't an extraordenary lightsaber duellists as we all have seen in ROTS and the DE comics. If he had knowledge about Tulak's fighting style he could have pretty much defeated anybody else in a lightsaber duel.



The "third most powerful" Sith is unknown since we only know that Sadow and Kressh were basically equals and the only people that had a chance to get the Dark Lord title meaning all others must have been some steps below them in terms of power. So I guess a Jedi Master (maybe Council Member) like Memit might be able to take one of them. And yeah surprised by a group of Massassi. Think about that statement...



Blowing up a single world to stop Sadow from letting the entire empire get destroyed...yes, he would do that. And Ragnos couldn't expand the empire since that ship wouldn't enable him to control more that he already did. As I said: Sidious had at least 25,000 Star Destroyers, millions of other ships and some Death Star and couldn't control his own Empire.



This is an EU subforum and therefore the things expressed in the games count unless they contradict higher levels of canon. Is there anything in order to contradict the idea of Ragnos using a Sith sword ? No ? Thanks.



Oh again back to the artifact point ? Get it into your brain: If Sidious had artifacts, he would have used them. If he didn't use some, he didn't have them. It's as easy as that.



I said that he was bound to Yavin.
How many Jedi did it take then to stop him. Do you think the entire Order was present because they thought they would able to stop him with a group of Jedi ? So the amount of Jedi needed to do that is unknown at best. And he didn't have to understand the ritual because - guess what - it worked.



Huh ? I'm talking about a time when he was Senator for Naboo and had political stuff to do on Coruscant. So he couldn't have gone somewhere for years. And as I said: Even if he did the Ancient Sith Lords wouldn't have told him anything since he was nowhere near them at that point.



Oh please. He had his spirit sealed in some artifacts and just waited.



Out of reach ? How far away is that exactly if you want to attack somebody with the force, eh ? Next planet ?



And Sidious after his final defeat could exactly do: Nothing.



What reason would he have going to Korriban while still getting trained by Plagueis. In the time he killed Plagueis he clearly wasn't as powerful as his former master - otherwise he wouldn't have had to assassinate him while he was sleeping and that happened somewhere between his infancy and his 27th year (when he started training Maul). So he had maybe some years between mudering Plagueis and becoming Senator to do what he wanted. And again: Why would the Ancient Sith give their knowledge to that Sidious when he was in that low age and not "powerful" or "great" in any way ? Does the sourcebook say when he learned it ?



You can't change the board rules just to have them fit your personal ideas and therefore Sidious gets tooled. Period. And since we've never seen Ragnos using "toys" either we have to say that he's still more powerful than Sadow with his toys and still Sidious gets his ass kicked. Too bad...

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
Who was never seen being present somewhere. And Sidious wasn't an extraordenary lightsaber duellists as we all have seen in ROTS and the DE comics. If he had knowledge about Tulak's fighting style he could have pretty much defeated anybody else in a lightsaber duel.



The "third most powerful" Sith is unknown since we only know that Sadow and Kressh were basically equals and the only people that had a chance to get the Dark Lord title meaning all others must have been some steps below them in terms of power. So I guess a Jedi Master (maybe Council Member) like Memit might be able to take one of them. And yeah surprised by a group of Massassi. Think about that statement...



Blowing up a single world to stop Sadow from letting the entire empire get destroyed...yes, he would do that. And Ragnos couldn't expand the empire since that ship wouldn't enable him to control more that he already did. As I said: Sidious had at least 25,000 Star Destroyers, millions of other ships and some Death Star and couldn't control his own Empire.



This is an EU subforum and therefore the things expressed in the games count unless they contradict higher levels of canon. Is there anything in order to contradict the idea of Ragnos using a Sith sword ? No ? Thanks.



Oh again back to the artifact point ? Get it into your brain: If Sidious had artifacts, he would have used them. If he didn't use some, he didn't have them. It's as easy as that.



I said that he was bound to Yavin.
How many Jedi did it take then to stop him. Do you think the entire Order was present because they thought they would able to stop him with a group of Jedi ? So the amount of Jedi needed to do that is unknown at best. And he didn't have to understand the ritual because - guess what - it worked.



Huh ? I'm talking about a time when he was Senator for Naboo and had political stuff to do on Coruscant. So he couldn't have gone somewhere for years. And as I said: Even if he did the Ancient Sith Lords wouldn't have told him anything since he was nowhere near them at that point.



Oh please. He had his spirit sealed in some artifacts and just waited.



Out of reach ? How far away is that exactly if you want to attack somebody with the force, eh ? Next planet ?



And Sidious after his final defeat could exactly do: Nothing.



What reason would he have going to Korriban while still getting trained by Plagueis. In the time he killed Plagueis he clearly wasn't as powerful as his former master - otherwise he wouldn't have had to assassinate him while he was sleeping and that happened somewhere between his infancy and his 27th year (when he started training Maul). So he had maybe some years between mudering Plagueis and becoming Senator to do what he wanted. And again: Why would the Ancient Sith give their knowledge to that Sidious when he was in that low age and not "powerful" or "great" in any way ? Does the sourcebook say when he learned it ?



You can't change the board rules just to have them fit your personal ideas and therefore Sidious gets tooled. Period. And since we've never seen Ragnos using "toys" either we have to say that he's still more powerful than Sadow with his toys and still Sidious gets his ass kicked. Too bad...

1. He only dominates Luke at one point and kills three extremely skilled Jedi masters in seconds.

2. MEmit was a master now?

3. Maybe just maybe, Ragnos could've done something of the sort when he was alive?

4. Fine, I'll accept Ragnos's war sword. However, now, I'll be using other bits that don't contradict.

5. Dark Side sourcebook disproves you.

6. Spirit sealed in an artifact equates to manipulating a dynasty?

7. Well, unless Exar could fly and attack Nadd with a saber, I'd say floating in the air was out of reach.

8. Are we counting DE or ROTJ as Sidious's final defeat now?

9. For all we know, Plageuis took him to Korriban and Palpatine did PLENTY behind Plageuis's back. Maul for example.

10. Really now? why don't we give Sidious his artifacts then? And how do we know he was stronger than sadow with all his toys? Ragnos has never appeared when he was alive

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He only dominates Luke at one point and kills three extremely skilled Jedi masters in seconds.


He dominates Luke at that point, yes. The same Luke that was "dominated" by the clone of some guy that was less powerful than Vader just a year before. Luke isn't the "force god" he's in the NJO series in the DE comics. I mean - what did he do ? He deflected blasterfire from an AT-AT...the deflection of energy was shown by Vader in ESB and Yoda in AotC and Yoda even managed to "absorb" force lightning. Anything special there ? And he hardly gained any lightsaber fighting experience in the years before. I mean: How many force users did he fight in lightsaber duels between ROTJ and DE ?



Well...he's the advisor of Empress Teta in a time when she's conquering the planets of her system. And when he levitates his own lightsaber in some scene you can see that it has some golden decoration on it - this is most likely electrum and only Council Members were allowed to use that as a decoration.



What ? Expand the Sith Empire and keep it under control ? He could have expanded it only towards Republic space meaning he basically would have had to take the Republic itself in order to expand the Empire and while he might be able to take it he surely hasn't the people to keep it under control. There are just too many people having something against a "reign of the Dark Side" over the Galaxy (especially because of the normal methods Dark Siders use ruling their territory) and if Sidious with all his forces - from the Imperial Navy, over storm troopers to all the Dark Side practioneers he had - couldn't prevent his Empire from getting destroyed, I doubt that Ragnos will manage to keep the Sith Empire and the entire Republic space "peaceful" under his reign.



How ? It just said that Sidious learned some of the darkest secrets of Korriban being taught by the spirits of the Ancient Sith. Does it give any time ? Does it say "he learned everything" ?



He influenced the dynasty with his teachings. Arca Jeth after the fight with Queen Amanoa even tells Ulic that he has failed to sense the Dark Side dominating Iziz - seing that virtually all of Nadd's descendants were Sith Magicians.



I wonder what a saber attack would do to a force spirit. Not that much I think. And it's pretty much clear that Kun needed Sadow's amulet to defeat Nadd otherwise he had many chances to do that before. And when have we ever seen the spirit of an ancient Sith Lord getting exterminated by the use of "weapons" only ?



I consider Han Solo shooting him in the back the "final defeat". Did he show up again from that point on ?



Eh ? Where does it say that he was training Maul behind Plagueis back ? There can only be two Sith at any time and Sidious sticked to that rule pretty much which is why he wanted Anakin to kill Dooku and later Luke should kill Vader. That's following the "rule of two".



That's ridiculous. We don't know if Ragnos did have artifacts or not - yet, what would that artifacts do ? The only purpose Sadow's amulet for example had was channeling the emotions of his user to create that nice "beams" of force energy able to kill people, spirits and rip through massive walls. Does it something about "boosting force powers up" ? As far as I remember it doesn't.
So what do you want ? Giving Sidious artifacts when you can't even prove that he had some - then using them against the Sith Lord without even knowing what they would do ? That would do what exactly when Ragnos had probably greater knowledge, greater artifacts and more combat experience ?

The only thing you would archieve doing that would be throw more unknowns into the debate (both opponents power level without artifacts, both with artifacts, what artifacts did they use or had access to) and in the end the guy with more experience, more fighting skills and more knowledge about Sith Alchemy, Sith Magic and the Dark Side - that being Ragnos - would still be the winner.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
He dominates Luke at that point, yes. The same Luke that was "dominated" by the clone of some guy that was less powerful than Vader just a year before. Luke isn't the "force god" he's in the NJO series in the DE comics. I mean - what did he do ? He deflected blasterfire from an AT-AT...the deflection of energy was shown by Vader in ESB and Yoda in AotC and Yoda even managed to "absorb" force lightning. Anything special there ? And he hardly gained any lightsaber fighting experience in the years before. I mean: How many force users did he fight in lightsaber duels between ROTJ and DE ?



Well...he's the advisor of Empress Teta in a time when she's conquering the planets of her system. And when he levitates his own lightsaber in some scene you can see that it has some golden decoration on it - this is most likely electrum and only Council Members were allowed to use that as a decoration.



What ? Expand the Sith Empire and keep it under control ? He could have expanded it only towards Republic space meaning he basically would have had to take the Republic itself in order to expand the Empire and while he might be able to take it he surely hasn't the people to keep it under control. There are just too many people having something against a "reign of the Dark Side" over the Galaxy (especially because of the normal methods Dark Siders use ruling their territory) and if Sidious with all his forces - from the Imperial Navy, over storm troopers to all the Dark Side practioneers he had - couldn't prevent his Empire from getting destroyed, I doubt that Ragnos will manage to keep the Sith Empire and the entire Republic space "peaceful" under his reign.



How ? It just said that Sidious learned some of the darkest secrets of Korriban being taught by the spirits of the Ancient Sith. Does it give any time ? Does it say "he learned everything" ?



He influenced the dynasty with his teachings. Arca Jeth after the fight with Queen Amanoa even tells Ulic that he has failed to sense the Dark Side dominating Iziz - seing that virtually all of Nadd's descendants were Sith Magicians.



I wonder what a saber attack would do to a force spirit. Not that much I think. And it's pretty much clear that Kun needed Sadow's amulet to defeat Nadd otherwise he had many chances to do that before. And when have we ever seen the spirit of an ancient Sith Lord getting exterminated by the use of "weapons" only ?



I consider Han Solo shooting him in the back the "final defeat". Did he show up again from that point on ?



Eh ? Where does it say that he was training Maul behind Plagueis back ? There can only be two Sith at any time and Sidious sticked to that rule pretty much which is why he wanted Anakin to kill Dooku and later Luke should kill Vader. That's following the "rule of two".



That's ridiculous. We don't know if Ragnos did have artifacts or not - yet, what would that artifacts do ? The only purpose Sadow's amulet for example had was channeling the emotions of his user to create that nice "beams" of force energy able to kill people, spirits and rip through massive walls. Does it something about "boosting force powers up" ? As far as I remember it doesn't.
So what do you want ? Giving Sidious artifacts when you can't even prove that he had some - then using them against the Sith Lord without even knowing what they would do ? That would do what exactly when Ragnos had probably greater knowledge, greater artifacts and more combat experience ?

The only thing you would archieve doing that would be throw more unknowns into the debate (both opponents power level without artifacts, both with artifacts, what artifacts did they use or had access to) and in the end the guy with more experience, more fighting skills and more knowledge about Sith Alchemy, Sith Magic and the Dark Side - that being Ragnos - would still be the winner.

1. Luke is already able to create massive illusions, create shields to stop AT AT blaster fire while he focuses and crush an AT AT's head, not to mention ease the landing of an out of control star destroyer...

2. I'll remind you in that era, the Jedi are already helping dictators crush secessionists....and Memit and Odan were good friends and close there....Odann was still a padawan. Memit, around his ae and skill?

3. Unlike Sidious, apparently, Ragnos could blow up stars at will....I say apparently as this is devil's advocate.

4. It says he refined and perfected them, so take that how you will.

5. That doesn't mean Nadd was hanging around, whispering in ears...

6. When would Exar have the chance to kill Nadd beforehand? Like I said, Nadd got careless and died for it.

7. He hasn't shown up again, no...however, he's got all the Jedi locking him away in the Dark Side, I'd say that's quite the blocker there. And Ragnos hasn't appeared since Jaden beat him, Nadd hasn't been around for a bit, either...or Sadow...

8. in the New Essential Chronology, it's clear cut he trained Maul behind Plageuis's back...it's quoted on Wookiepedia I believe.

9. How would ragnos have more combat experience? Who says Ragnos knew more about the alchemy and dark side? Hell, in DE, PAlpatine is described as an avatar of the Dark Side. Unlike Palpatine, Ragnos could rest easy in his position...the Ancient Sith weren't exactly vicious backstabbers....Garu, or example was a loyal friend to another Sith lord on the council. Simus had true and genuine affection for Naga. Ragnos had true respect for Simus, seen by him helping Simus to live on....duels were lawfully declared...

VinCon01
I just wanted to ask: When did she ever say Revan got the holocron?

Exile: What made him so great?

Kreia: That is unknown. But supposedly he created a holocron to teach his technique to other Sith. The holocron would have been laid to rest within his tomb. Unfortunately, Tulak Horde's tomb was the first to be penetrated by the graverobbers of the New Sith Order. If the holocron has survived, I doubt anyone living knows would know it's location.

w00t2112
Ragnos > Luke > Sidious
Conclusion: Ragnos wtfpwns sidious
Oh lightsnake...you do see not many people support you, there hasn't been once where you dont think the ancient sith could beat any NJO jedi, you're making up alot of bullshit, if pretty much all the ancient sith feared Ragnos...he has power unless his so smart, the sith can't do without him, which was not the case...if the sith didnt attack him a half-breed on his death bed...what does that mean? He is powerful, more powerful than any sith after him...eg Sun Tzu, invented the art of war...it went on through the ages...now noone can properly use it to the great same effect, that means even if sidious had the same knowledge, it doesnt mean he could best the person who created it, oh and btw...a sithlord like ragnos, would keep secrets that he wouldn't reveal...such is the way of the sith!

w00t2112
One more thing - as usual you use feats to demonstrate power, ok so you're saying anyone that can cause massive destruction, is the most powerful?

w00t2112
Oh btw...from force feats...yes luke developed alot.. but that was from his raw force potentail...but how bout lightsabers? did he invent a better on? no. what about his own style? did he get one? no

Lightsnake
Luke's only managed to outclass anyone he's fought with a saber...and incorporated styles to his own, he's dominated numerous darksiders, reived an order and done incredile Force feats and is now widely considered the strongest force user ever. Ragnos is strong, one of the two strongest Sith ever doubtlessly, but he's taking on LUKE

Dark Aristokrat
Luke's only managed to outclass anyone he's fought with a saber...

Which is why he has a fake hand, and why he submitted to Sidious when he knew he couldn't defeat him. What a sabergod.


and incorporated styles to his own

What styles? Indeed, how could he know any complete styles from the previous generations, considering that all the jedi are dead?


, he's dominated numerous darksiders

So he just... walked all over all opposition? And this translates to what now?


, reived an order

Feat wars. This has NOTHING to do with anything.


and done incredile Force feats

Lots of people have done incredible Force feats, especially considering that "incredible" is a subjective term and proves nothing.


and is now widely considered the strongest force user ever

Where's this from? Lemme guess- general concensus on TFN?

Let me put it to you this way- since when has "widely considered" ever been proof of anything? Did you take a debate class, I wonder? Do you understand the meaning behind "Appeal to Majority"?


. Ragnos is strong, one of the two strongest Sith ever doubtlessly, but he's taking on LUKE

This is ridiculous bias here. Ragnos lived for over a hundred years, most of that ruling over (unchallenged) by an empire full of ambitious, deceptive, and powerful Sith Lords, who's toys and trinkets are enough to make people like Kun and Sidious uber. The fact that he wasn't slain, imprisoned, destroyed, or even ****ed with on his deathbed makes him a lot more impressive than Luke, and most certainly with more experience in the Force and against other Force users.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Luke is already able to create massive illusions, create shields to stop AT AT blaster fire while he focuses and crush an AT AT's head, not to mention ease the landing of an out of control star destroyer...


If told you on numerous occassions that the creation of illusions doesn't require a great amount of force power the way Luke is using it. Read the Black Fleet trilogy. The stopping of blasterfire was demonstrated by Vader in ESB and Vader is 80 % of Sidious according to Lucas himself. Crushing the head of an AT AT doesn't seem to be very impressive and "ease the landing" of a star destroyer also doesn't.

Luke a year later wasn't able to protect himself against Kyp and Kun attacking him, he was later stalemated by Desann not to mention that he nearly got his force powers drained off in "Chrystal Star". So he's nowhere near his NJO level at that point. He didn't advance greatly from ROTJ on until the point he founded the Academy.



The point is that Memit is carrying an electrum saber and that is only allowed to members of the High Council. And you think they'd sent a Padawan to be Empress Teta's advisor ? Since when are Padawans sent on missions - especially importan one's like that - without their master. Memit was at least a knight and his saber indicates that he was a master. And since when do age or friendship to a Padawan indicate the status of another Jedi ?



Sidious had the technology to blow up stars and Tarkin in ANH demonstrated that the Empire would use that on peaceful planets like Alderaan just for "demonstration". Still the fear created by those military power wasn't enough to keep the Galaxy under control. So I don't see any difference if somebody can blow up stars with personal power or with technology - the effect is the same and as we have seen that effect isn't enough.



I was asking "when" he did learn them and if it says he learned "everything". Not if Sidious refined and perfected something.



No. But he did that later with the Keto's and Exar Kun. And when Kun destroys him finally it even says that Nadd "reaches out to others he had led down the dark path". So obviously he did influence other people.



How was he getting careless ? Kun couldn't kill him before he had Sadow's amulet no matter if Nadd protected himself or not. The only other complete extermination of a Sith Lords spirit (Kun's own) was done by the combined forces of Luke's students, Luke himself and Vodo.



Nadd's spirit was destroyed and he was around 400 years after his actual death. Ragnos was around 5,000 years after his actual death when you'd like to say that Sidious talked to him on Korriban and he survived the confrontation with Jaden as we've seen him going back to his tomb.



And is it mentioned somewhere when he did kill Plagueis exactly ?



How did you think Ragnos get were he was ? He beheaded Simus in a duel and in an Empire where "the strongest shall rule" there is only one way to the top and this is fighting. It doesn't matter if they were "backstabbers" or "honourable warriors". What matters is that they did fight their way to the top (otherwise I don't see the point why Ragnos had to challenge Simus in a duel to become the Dark Lord or why Sadow and Kressh were duelling for that title).
And where does it say that this prevents them from being friends ? The Sith Lords are already on the highest positions of power and if they have no chance to become the Dark Lord (which was true under Ragnos, and true under Sadow / Kressh) I don't see why they shouldn't be friends or loyal to others. And where does it say that nobody ever challenged Ragnos or tried to do it ? Kreia even tells in KotoR II that he dominated his "oponents"...

And Ragnos would certainly know more about alchemy than Sidious. He lived at the time where it was commonly used and he ruled over people who could create stuff to kill force users and blast walls or entire planets away (Sadow). Not to mention Ragnos sceptre which was powerful enough to turn a bunch of nobodies into Dark Jedi (meaning it creates force users) and toss Jedi around like ragdolls (or even kill them). Ever seen Sidious using some of that ? And those were Sith alchemy skills which isn't really "the dark side".

Lightsnake
1. I'd call creating illusionary fleets quite the feat as it took Sadow a lot of power and energy to do it, along with a whole cache of crystals...and why has noone else eased the landing of an out of control star destroyer? Why has noone else destroyed war machines with the force? And has Vader ever blocked a huge storm of blaster fire, coupled with blocking AND reflecting an AT AT's shots?

STALEMATED Desann? Luke has a history of never fighting seriously against his ex-students and Desann pulled a trick and ran away...a trick that didn't effect Luke at all...and he was nearly drained by Waru, a being who fed off the Force...

2. Since when do electrum sabers only belong to members of the high council? I didn't know this so please elaborate. Memit and Odan were also exceptionally informal to one another and Memit and Odan had Ooroo looking after them, too.

3. Tarkin didn't exactly vaporize a combatanant planet....the Rebellion was in league before Sidious had the Death Star made.

4. He reached out to the Ketos, obviously. Point is, he wasn't influencing a throne directly for 400 years.

5. And it took a gang of padawans to trap and send Kun into hysterical rage...Kun was unable to destroy Luke's body as well.

6. Nadd'd mostly lain dormant until that ear of his death or a bit before....and Jedi Academy takes place over 10 years after ROTJ....DE takes place six years after...

7. A bit over a decade or so before TPM is when Plageuis supposedly died. Palpatine was engaged in a 'pet project' in Maul behind Plageuis's back.

8. My point is: Duels were lawfully declared at the time, betrayal was not the norm. Even Naga seemed a bit distressed over killing Simus. and consider this: Nadd stormed out of the Sith Order because the reigning DL was still young by standards....why not challenge a younger lord and be done with it? Why not return and challenge him (I didn't make this up, I KNOW the plot inconsistencies here...

9. If stuff could be created to kill Force users, then the Sith would have used it instantly on Coruscant, and Sadow could've simply destroyed Koros Major...

And yes, we've seen Sidious do that, when he imbued Tedryn Sha and Xecr Nist with the Dark Side into instantly full fledged warriors. Sidious did that with just the Dark Side and stands to reason he was learning some of them alchemy skills...he did create a few nasty creatures.

Borbarad

Lightsnake

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. what's there to support the illusions Sadow made were real? Who made these landscapes and went invisible?

The Fallanassi in the Black Fleet trilogy. One made herself invisible just in front of Luke and another created an entire fleet of illusions. And both weren't the greatest force users exactly.



That is just mentioned because Mace Windu wears the only lightsaber with an electrum hilt in the films. Still it's pretty much illogical that a Padawan - who didn't create his own lightsaber yet - would have an lightsaber with electrum decorations on it. So Memit would have been at least a knight although the material points to a Master / Council Member. Not to mention that I doubt they'd sent a normal Knight to advise Empress Teta.



Base Delta Zero would have the same effect...unless you can name a planet that would be able to provide enough ships / firepower to take on the entire Imperial Navy.



Sidious still needed a host body were the ancient Sith were all just coming back as force spirits.



How did he fail ? He just didn't try and considering that all of Luke's students gathered he didn't have the chance to manipulate them one by one. And still - as a 4,000 year old spirit - he nearly managed to kill them all at once.



Err...he possibly had the power but he didn't have the "weapon". Logically a normal force attack won't do much to a spirit and the same counts for a lightsaber attack.



Where's the point there ?



We know that he didn't learn everything from Plageuis because he basically admits this himself in ROTS. And a lot on the side ? So he was still training under Plagueis, training Maul at the same time and he was Senator of Naboo meaning he could leave Coruscant on very rare ocassions only ? Yet he did somehow manage to gather a great part of knowledge from the Ancient Sith and practice it - while being busy with the other stuff ?



If the Dark Lord was young by Sith standarts he could still have been older than Nadd himself at that point and seeing that Nadd basically didn't know anything about the Dark Side before meeting Sadow on Yavin 4 I doubt he could have beaten a real Sith Lord in direct confrontation.



He tossed Sylvar once and did that effortless and considering he could rip massive walls into pieces with such a handmovement she was pretty lucky that he didn't just kill her the same way he killed Odan Urr. And Odan was involved in the Great Hyperspace War and somehow managed to get a Sith holocron - so I don't see him being a weak fighter even if he hated fighting and war.
And Nadd's spirit helped Ommin to capture Arca Jeth, keep him as a prisoner and later killed Ommin after Ulic cut through the King's exosceleton. So Nadd could keep a very powerful Jedi Master as a prisoner and destroy a quite powerful Sith Magician quite effortless and you call it "not that great" to kill his spirit ?


And still this is Ragnos vs Sidious. Can you tell me how Sidious should be able to win that ? He's using stuff that Ragnos already knew, Ragnos has most likely access to knowledge / powers / alchemic products that Sidious has never seen in his life including all knowledge that was lost on Malachor V. So Ragnos could theoretically instakill Sidious in god knows how many ways (amulet similar to that of Sadow, his sceptre, the power Kreia did use on the 3 Jedi Masters etc.) while Sidious most powerful weapon is a force storm that can go out of control if somebody attacks him through the force while he's using it. Now Ragnos is more than a century old and lived in the highest point of Sith Alchemy and Sith Magic and ruled the most powerful people for more than a century. Not to mention that he has a great advantage on Sidious when it comes to physical power. So how would Sidious win that fight exactly ?

Dark Aristokrat
QED QED....

Sidious has no chance, period.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
The Fallanassi in the Black Fleet trilogy. One made herself invisible just in front of Luke and another created an entire fleet of illusions. And both weren't the greatest force users exactly.



That is just mentioned because Mace Windu wears the only lightsaber with an electrum hilt in the films. Still it's pretty much illogical that a Padawan - who didn't create his own lightsaber yet - would have an lightsaber with electrum decorations on it. So Memit would have been at least a knight although the material points to a Master / Council Member. Not to mention that I doubt they'd sent a normal Knight to advise Empress Teta.



Base Delta Zero would have the same effect...unless you can name a planet that would be able to provide enough ships / firepower to take on the entire Imperial Navy.



Sidious still needed a host body were the ancient Sith were all just coming back as force spirits.



How did he fail ? He just didn't try and considering that all of Luke's students gathered he didn't have the chance to manipulate them one by one. And still - as a 4,000 year old spirit - he nearly managed to kill them all at once.



Err...he possibly had the power but he didn't have the "weapon". Logically a normal force attack won't do much to a spirit and the same counts for a lightsaber attack.



Where's the point there ?



We know that he didn't learn everything from Plageuis because he basically admits this himself in ROTS. And a lot on the side ? So he was still training under Plagueis, training Maul at the same time and he was Senator of Naboo meaning he could leave Coruscant on very rare ocassions only ? Yet he did somehow manage to gather a great part of knowledge from the Ancient Sith and practice it - while being busy with the other stuff ?



If the Dark Lord was young by Sith standarts he could still have been older than Nadd himself at that point and seeing that Nadd basically didn't know anything about the Dark Side before meeting Sadow on Yavin 4 I doubt he could have beaten a real Sith Lord in direct confrontation.



He tossed Sylvar once and did that effortless and considering he could rip massive walls into pieces with such a handmovement she was pretty lucky that he didn't just kill her the same way he killed Odan Urr. And Odan was involved in the Great Hyperspace War and somehow managed to get a Sith holocron - so I don't see him being a weak fighter even if he hated fighting and war.
And Nadd's spirit helped Ommin to capture Arca Jeth, keep him as a prisoner and later killed Ommin after Ulic cut through the King's exosceleton. So Nadd could keep a very powerful Jedi Master as a prisoner and destroy a quite powerful Sith Magician quite effortless and you call it "not that great" to kill his spirit ?


And still this is Ragnos vs Sidious. Can you tell me how Sidious should be able to win that ? He's using stuff that Ragnos already knew, Ragnos has most likely access to knowledge / powers / alchemic products that Sidious has never seen in his life including all knowledge that was lost on Malachor V. So Ragnos could theoretically instakill Sidious in god knows how many ways (amulet similar to that of Sadow, his sceptre, the power Kreia did use on the 3 Jedi Masters etc.) while Sidious most powerful weapon is a force storm that can go out of control if somebody attacks him through the force while he's using it. Now Ragnos is more than a century old and lived in the highest point of Sith Alchemy and Sith Magic and ruled the most powerful people for more than a century. Not to mention that he has a great advantage on Sidious when it comes to physical power. So how would Sidious win that fight exactly ?

Janus, would you please stop interjecting random statements like that in the MIDDLE of a debate?

1. I'll reread the Black Fleet trilogy....however, that does sort of damage Naga Sadow's credibility.

2. Memit had Odann and Ooroo by him as well. And Memit was an advisor, not a war leader. By the by, found proof on another issue: It specifically says a few knights are all that leads the fight on Coruscant against Naga.

3. Like hell, the Imperial Navy was an incredible force.

4. The Ancient Sith weren't exactly affecting anything physically without hosts and a bevy of Sith energy around. And who says Sidious actually NEEDED a Clone Body?

5. At the very end, when Kun tries to manipulate/turn them...he fails rather miserably. And considering it took a group of PADAWANS to trap him...

6. Possibly had the power? Kun didn't really show himself as anything remotely resembling a powerhouse until the amulet and the amulet did the work, NOT Kun

7. To counter the idea that Ragnos's return was before DE?

8. You think I don't notice how little sense it makes? And Plageuis knowing what Palp said he does is conjecture and rumor at best. It makes little sense, it's ridiculous, but it's there, spot on there.

9. He'd already been apart of the Order and apparently a candidate for the DL position.

10. When did he 'rip massive walls to pieces' And considering Odan was near dead anyways....the man was over a thousand and NOT exactly skilled in offensive means. There's no proof it could have or would have worked on Sylvar. Otherwise, he could simply have used it on Vodo, or on Ulic, or on Ood. And Ood didn't 'fight', he sat back, failed to help and watched Ooroo die. He also found the holocron aboard an empty Sith ship. And Arca was near the edge of unconciousness thanks to being totally caught off guard by Nadd AND Ommin. And Ommin was dead by the time Nadd took his soul.

11. Ragnos already knew the new things implemented by Bane's order? The mysticism of Plageuis? The Sith lords preceeding Ragnos? Who the hell says any of those 'instakills' could work whatsoever? If they could, Ragnos would've used them on Simus and Naga on Ludo. And no, Sidious's force storm was HARDLY his strongest ability, I'd wager that as sucking a planet of life and energy. And the SKywalkers PLUS Anakin Solo's already raw force power were against him. Sidious has the power and knowledge necessary to take Ragnos on and isn't stupid to engage Ragnos in a saber duel. I'd say he could win by tearing the place to pieces with the Force or draining Ragnos, or pinching off a nerve in his brain.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I'll reread the Black Fleet trilogy....however, that does sort of damage Naga Sadow's credibility.


No it doesn't because you just don't see the difference between Sadow's illusions and that other people created. Illusions created by other people were either massive cover (Luke hiding Vader's fortress, the Vagabound and the planet), just "duplicated images" (the Falanassi creating a fleet). Sadow's illusions were basically real meaning he produced 90 % of the Sith forces during the attack on Coruscant and made them move / act individually and even react. You see...he was just doing a far more difficult thing.



Where is the point if he was a war leader or an advisor ? Yoda was a Jedi Cosular and still able to defeat anybody else in a lightsaber fight. And if you find some proof than PRESENT it and not just say "I've some proof".



See...and still it couldn't destroy the Rebels because of the methods Sidious used to rule.



They weren't exactly affecting anything physically ? They don't have to if they can destroy holocrons and kill people with sheer force powers. And stop that "Sith energy" stuff - they were generating it but couldn't use it. Sidious not needing a clone body ? That's why he built them and wanted to take over Anakin Solo's body ?



What the...? He controlled Streen who was about to kill Luke when the other just did show up and stopped Streen. Then they all got force choked and Streen's ability was the only thing saving them before the combined power of Luke, Vodo and the students was able to destroy Kun. Really...where did the "trap" him and where did they triumph over him alone ?



The amulet used Kun's anger multiplied it and shoots energy. As I said...he didn't have the weapon. And still...seeing that Kun with that amulet alone was able to do something that needed Luke, Vodo and all of Luke's students combined powers to be reproduced that make him quite powerful WITH the amulet. Don't you think so ?



Who did say something like that ? I just said that he was around for 5,000 years, seeing that he spoke to Sadow/Kressh directly after his death, to Kun and Ulic 1,000 years later and to Sidious another 4,000 years later. That was why I wondered that he had to be "summoned" just a few years later.



Why doesn't it make sense ? Why should Sidious make that up and later tell Anakin that together they would be able to archive the same power ? He already had him over to the Dark Side.



No. He simply didn't have the knowledge. He himself even thought that he couldn't be any more than a Sith Acolyte at that point. He had just escaped from Ossus after slaying his master and he was just somebody who didn't pass his trials to become a Jedi Kinght. That's hardly compareable to somebody who lived his entire life studying and using Sith Magic / Alchemy or the Dark Side.



During his fight with the creature on Yavin 4. He once points his hands to the temple wall and you can see it exploding.



Oh great. You just assume that Odan was near dead. Proof ? Do you know the average lifetime of his species ? And I call the ability to cut Jedi's connection to the force off with some concentration and a hand movement quite an "offensive" skill.



What ? Kun blasted her through the room without effort and we've seen nothing coming from the amulet (that nice beams, some glowing). The narration said he didn't even care about her.



He didn't want to use it on Vodo or Ulic or Odd. That's the entire point. Or have you see him trying to do it and fail, eh ?
And Arca was caught "off guard" ? He walked into a city dominated by Dark Side magicians and Nadd himself for 400 years and was surprised by a Dark Side attack ? What a great Jedi. And no...Ommin was still alive, then Nadd's saying something like "It's over Ommin." and he's dead.



All people following the Ancient Sith used knowledge created by the Ancient Sith. Why don't you get it ? That's why they kept plundering Korriban and gathered knowledge all over the Galaxy. And why should Ragnos have used instakill abilities ? You suggested that they weren't "backstabbers" at all but instead fought in duels. So why would they use instakill abilities on each other ?



You're talking about Ragnos here and not about stupid-idiot-X. Yet you still fail to provide proof for any of your suggestions. So what ? Can Sidious drain other force users ? Obviously not since he didn't use it on Luke and Leia. He used his most powerful weapon and that was - oh my - the force storm. And Luke at that point had less knowledge than the Luke who got pretty much tossed around like a ragdoll by Kun's spirit and Kyp. So what ?
Finally Sidious didn't have all of Ragnos knowledge, you can't judge his force powers compared to Ragnos and Ragnos can destroy him physically. So Sidious loses. Or, as IKC always says: "Fanboys can't save Sidious." Period.

Dark Aristokrat
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6425/churchsign6gh.jpg

Illustrious
Please, how would he tear the place to pieces and somehow survive? He's not exactly going to start the fight on the Deathstar in orbit over Ragnos' planet. Stop changing parameters for the fight.

Draining Ragnos? Where do you think he got that ability?

And do I need to remind you that in the JK:A game, Tavion with Ragnos had the most powerful (most damage dealt) attack in the game, and it was a megadrain? Don't talk about draining. By that logic, Ragnos could just drain it back. And do you forget that Tavion was draining the force power of entire planets with guess what? Ragnos' scepter!

Pinch off a nerve in his brain? Where does he indicate he can do this? Where does he do this to a powerful force user? Why didn't he do it to Luke or Leia?

Ragnos is "the most powerful of the most powerful" individual among the entire "godlike" Sith. This is the word of the omniscient narrator, and there is no evidence to suggest anything that diminishes that notion.

In the end, you have nothing but your own desire for Sidious to win. That's called bias and fanboyism.

You lose, and Quod Erot Demonstratum.

Darth_Glentract
Lightsnake, have you looked at how many logical people disagree with you? I mean, you seriously have to wonder when so many people who have been looking at this and doing this for longer then you all say you are wrong.

w00t2112
Add to that Illogical people as well, it seemed like a debate that lightsnake lost long ago

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
Please, how would he tear the place to pieces and somehow survive? He's not exactly going to start the fight on the Deathstar in orbit over Ragnos' planet. Stop changing parameters for the fight.

Draining Ragnos? Where do you think he got that ability?

And do I need to remind you that in the JK:A game, Tavion with Ragnos had the most powerful (most damage dealt) attack in the game, and it was a megadrain? Don't talk about draining. By that logic, Ragnos could just drain it back. And do you forget that Tavion was draining the force power of entire planets with guess what? Ragnos' scepter!

Pinch off a nerve in his brain? Where does he indicate he can do this? Where does he do this to a powerful force user? Why didn't he do it to Luke or Leia?

Ragnos is "the most powerful of the most powerful" individual among the entire "godlike" Sith. This is the word of the omniscient narrator, and there is no evidence to suggest anything that diminishes that notion.

In the end, you have nothing but your own desire for Sidious to win. That's called bias and fanboyism.

You lose, and Quod Erot Demonstratum.

Sidious was draining the enrgy of worlds as well, point? And yes, the final boss had the most powerful attack in the game....gameplay measures the idea of strength now?

Brakiss himself was shown to be manipulating solar flares in 'Lightsabers', and mentions to Zekk some of Palpatine's abilities.

And the Ancient Sith are wiped out on three planets and need to be tricked into going into war, that takes their godliness down a peg. We know Sidious learned from Ragnos and his ilk, learned their quote unquote 'Darkest Secrets', found their ancient holocrons...

Darth Faunus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Janus, would you please stop interjecting random statements like that in the MIDDLE of a debate?

It's something of a news update.


Scan?



Erm, that was his point.



The fact that he went through all the trouble of making so many, and then got WTFpwned by Han Solo when they were all destroyed? The fact that he needed to crawl back to the spirits of the Ancients for guidance?



As Nai said, I didn't see anyone trapping anyone else. . .



Again; it obviously takes a powerful Force user to operate the amulet, as Kun's raw anger was able to "double it's power". Technically, again, he is strengthening it.



I don't think JA times were before DE, Lightsnake.



I don't know who you're referring to here, but there are two who come to mind.

Ragnos's sceptre, in Tavion's hands, no less, was able to bring down an entire chamber on Vjun, and Exar ripped apart a temple.



Bane's Order? The Rule of Two? If anything, that shows weakness. The Sith of that time weren't able to govern themselves as massive organization, even with a Council. Ragnos, on the other hand, sominated an empire.

Plagueis's mysticism? You mean his manipulation of midichlorians? According to the databank, Plagueis manipulated midichlorians like an 'ancient Sith alchemist'. I'll find you the exact line.

The instakills may not be as effective against a reigning Dark Lord who'd defended himself against attempts at the throne for do many decades, or against someone of similar or greater power.

Tearing the place to pieces? If Ragnos hadn't already torn it apart with his scepter, Sidious's kill himself.

Drain? As IKC said, Tavion was able to drain the Force energy from entire planets with his scepter. The power it would be able to unleash in his hands would be unfathomable.

Pinch off a nerve in his brain? Lol!

This is ridiculous, Lightsnake.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
It's something of a news update.


Scan?



Erm, that was his point.



The fact that he went through all the trouble of making so many, and then got WTFpwned by Han Solo when they were all destroyed? The fact that he needed to crawl back to the spirits of the Ancients for guidance?



As Nai said, I didn't see anyone trapping anyone else. . .



Again; it obviously takes a powerful Force user to operate the amulet, as Kun's raw anger was able to "double it's power". Technically, again, he is strengthening it.



I don't think JA times were before DE, Lightsnake.



I don't know who you're referring to here, but there are two who come to mind.

Ragnos's sceptre, in Tavion's hands, no less, was able to bring down an entire chamber on Vjun, and Exar ripped apart a temple.



Bane's Order? The Rule of Two? If anything, that shows weakness. The Sith of that time weren't able to govern themselves as massive organization, even with a Council. Ragnos, on the other hand, sominated an empire.

Plagueis's mysticism? You mean his manipulation of midichlorians? According to the databank, Plagueis manipulated midichlorians like an 'ancient Sith alchemist'. I'll find you the exact line.

The instakills may not be as effective against a reigning Dark Lord who'd defended himself against attempts at the throne for do many decades, or against someone of similar or greater power.

Tearing the place to pieces? If Ragnos hadn't already torn it apart with his scepter, Sidious's kill himself.

Drain? As IKC said, Tavion was able to drain the Force energy from entire planets with his scepter. The power it would be able to unleash in his hands would be unfathomable.

Pinch off a nerve in his brain? Lol!

This is ridiculous, Lightsnake.

1. Yes, checking with people who are in tune with the force itself-and being offered a high place of honor by them is so debilitating....and pwned by Han Solo? Explain the line: "It is time to enter the child as I promised."
2. How do you explain Kun's final frantic efforts and inability to escape? I call that trapped.
3. Or the amulet is performing its exact purpose. Responding to the user
4. Palpatine also ripped apart a fleet, and a temple on Ossus and one on Nespis VIII
5. Ragnos also failed to provide any structure to the Sith, hence them falling apart after his death. Bane said it best: Too many Lords spread the Dark Side thin.
6. Noone but Sidious knows the extent of Plageuis's mysticism...the midichlorian thing could easily be the start of it.
7. And Sidious was able to do likewise. I doubt Tavion drained the energy of a place like Byss.
8. Yes, pinch off a nerve in his brain. Mara and Brakiss both mention that ability

And I've scanned the pic in, but it seems to be too big to attatch...help there?

DrDoom101
I say 5/10 for each based on u guys...

Dark Aristokrat
Host the pic with www.imageshack.us

But really, you just buried Sidious when you said that the Dark Empire Sourcebook was canon. Now we can go drag up RPG stats and show where Ragnos steps on NJO Luke, Yoda, and Sidious, probably all at the same time. And the RPG stats don't even account for his TOYS, like the sceptre!

Lightsnake
RPG stats themselves: Gaming purpose
Story info contained within sourcebooks: Complete continuity.

ResubianNushi
Originally posted by Lightsnake
RPG stats themselves: Gaming purpose
Story info contained within sourcebooks: Complete continuity.

Okay then. Ragnos kills Sidious by draining his force energy with his scepter. The End.

Dark Aristokrat
Originally posted by ResubianNushi
Okay then. Ragnos kills Sidious by draining his force energy with his scepter. The End.

Yep. QED.

Lightsnake
Before or after Ragnos realizes he taught Palpatine his darkest secrets and Palpatine implements a technique Ragnos has never seen on him?
And for the record: Too many Sith Lords weakens the Order. Jedi Vs. Sith for source.

How did Ragnos get that sceptre? Did he make it? Was it done by JUST him? Was it added to over the millenia? Recharged?

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Yes, checking with people who are in tune with the force itself-and being offered a high place of honor by them is so debilitating....and pwned by Han Solo? Explain the line: "It is time to enter the child as I promised."

If he knew anything they did already why did he have to GO and ASK them for KNOWLEDGE ? And please don't tell me they taught him everything but left that little detail out...



What ? Frantic efforts ? Inability to escape ? He didn't even try to escape so where do you see the inability there ? He just showed up, controlled one of Luke's students and then force choked them all at once. And then he was confronted with the combined power of all of them + Luke (who had already defeated DE Sidious at that point) + Vodo. And he was a spirit at that time.



Now what ? You want to tell us know that Kun is twice as powerful as Sadow ? Great. And he's still nothing compared to Ragnos.



A minor force user using one of Ragnos gimmicks drained the force from several planets, destroyed a room and the same thing was able to nearly kill Kyle Katarn with a single shot. I wonder what it would do in Ragnos hands.



What's that ? Feat wars ? Now keeping an entire empire of force users under your belt is somehow less impressive than failing to keep a single apprentice under control ?



Sidious admits in ROTS that he himself doesn't know anything. So why you keep bringing this up again and again ?



Notice again: Draining the force from planets just using the sceptre while being a minor force user. Did Sidious drain Byss (a single planet) empty ?



Yeah. I guess the most powerful Sith Lord of the Ancient Sith Empire wouldn't be able to protect against telekinesis. And because of that ability Sidious nearly got killed by Mace Windu and Yoda.



Upload it somewhere...

Illustrious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
RPG stats themselves: Gaming purpose
Story info contained within sourcebooks: Complete continuity.

Story info contained within sourcebooks? You mean the sourcebook published in 1993, before mention of guys like Kun or Ragnos? You mean the sourcebook that is contradicted by higher level of canon and ergo inaccurate?

The RPG stats are for gaming purpose. But they are also approved, meaning that you won't see Han Solo with 50 times the stats of NJO Luke. And guess what, in the approved RPG stats, Ragnos pisses on everyone except Exar Kun. In fact, in a head to head duel, provided you get equal die rolls, Ragnos owns the entire cast. QED.

And way to over generalize. So KotOR is for gaming purpose, does it mean nothing in it is marginally official? JK:A is for gaming purpose, is nothing in it official? Hell, the STAR WARS MOVIES are for entertainment purpose, does it mean that everything is taken with a grain of salt.

You say we can't criticize Luke based on CGI, so are you arguing with the stated canon? Don't twist parameters if you can't back them up.



Because it's a constant. Regardless of how you play that game, that attack still exists and has that level of power.

It's like you arguing that Revan doesn't exist because you died in the second level. Regardless of how you play that game, Revan exists.



Which makes him stronger than them... how? You've yet to answer this question. All you're doing is appealing to majority, ad nauseum, and claiming that absense of evidence is proof of absence.

And Sidious was shot in the back by a guy with a blaster. I guess that takes his godliness down a peg. I love how you "randomly" decide the parameters of omniscient narration. Are you arguing with the official source now just so Sidious can win? Get over yourself.



Bane's personal ideology impacts the respective powers of a single Dark Lord, how? You're really reaching with this one.

Prior to Bane, the Sith were raging a millenia long war against the Jedi, after Bane, they were relegated towards lurking in the shadows.

How does this indicate that more Sith Lords make the Dark Side weak, again? Face it, Sidious in ROTS was a victim of circumstance.



Yup. Ragnos' grasp on the force was said to be downright "frightening" even among the godlike ancient Sith, whom Traya says makes the KotOR era individuals look like Children.

There is no reason to suggest that he doesn't have some of the strongest force powers in all of SW continuity except for lack of evidence that was never meant to be there in the first place for thematic purposes. As for learning the sith's "darkest secrets" where does that line even suggest that he learned all that Ragnos knew? Or that he learned them to a higher proficiency than Ragnos, or that he knew more than Ragnos?

I'll tell you where; nowhere except for the mind of Lightsnake. And like IKC says, fanboys don't make Sidious win.

Lord Darkstar
Also Lightsnake, you said that Tavion never drained the force from a place like Byss, actually I remember he draining the force from many different planets, including Byss

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
Story info contained within sourcebooks? You mean the sourcebook published in 1993, before mention of guys like Kun or Ragnos? You mean the sourcebook that is contradicted by higher level of canon and ergo inaccurate?

The RPG stats are for gaming purpose. But they are also approved, meaning that you won't see Han Solo with 50 times the stats of NJO Luke. And guess what, in the approved RPG stats, Ragnos pisses on everyone except Exar Kun. In fact, in a head to head duel, provided you get equal die rolls, Ragnos owns the entire cast. QED.

And way to over generalize. So KotOR is for gaming purpose, does it mean nothing in it is marginally official? JK:A is for gaming purpose, is nothing in it official? Hell, the STAR WARS MOVIES are for entertainment purpose, does it mean that everything is taken with a grain of salt.

You say we can't criticize Luke based on CGI, so are you arguing with the stated canon? Don't twist parameters if you can't back them up.



Because it's a constant. Regardless of how you play that game, that attack still exists and has that level of power.

It's like you arguing that Revan doesn't exist because you died in the second level. Regardless of how you play that game, Revan exists.



Which makes him stronger than them... how? You've yet to answer this question. All you're doing is appealing to majority, ad nauseum, and claiming that absense of evidence is proof of absence.

And Sidious was shot in the back by a guy with a blaster. I guess that takes his godliness down a peg. I love how you "randomly" decide the parameters of omniscient narration. Are you arguing with the official source now just so Sidious can win? Get over yourself.



Bane's personal ideology impacts the respective powers of a single Dark Lord, how? You're really reaching with this one.

Prior to Bane, the Sith were raging a millenia long war against the Jedi, after Bane, they were relegated towards lurking in the shadows.

How does this indicate that more Sith Lords make the Dark Side weak, again? Face it, Sidious in ROTS was a victim of circumstance.



Yup. Ragnos' grasp on the force was said to be downright "frightening" even among the godlike ancient Sith, whom Traya says makes the KotOR era individuals look like Children.

There is no reason to suggest that he doesn't have some of the strongest force powers in all of SW continuity except for lack of evidence that was never meant to be there in the first place for thematic purposes. As for learning the sith's "darkest secrets" where does that line even suggest that he learned all that Ragnos knew? Or that he learned them to a higher proficiency than Ragnos, or that he knew more than Ragnos?

I'll tell you where; nowhere except for the mind of Lightsnake. And like IKC says, fanboys don't make Sidious win.

1. Oh, come on...something existed before someone else did so its invalid?

2. Not QED. STATS are described as game only. Story info is described as EU canon and has factored more than a bit.

3. So, I assume in KOTOR, people can take flurries and not fall to pieces? Gameplay isn't canon.

4. Oh, Sidious only perfected most if not all existing Sith techniques, rediscovered ancient ones and developed new ones....Come on, where's absolute proof Ragnos could annihilate a fleet on his own? Or drain the energy of a planet? And Palpatine was quite happy to be shot..."It's time to enter the child, as I promised."

5. Oh, please, Bane's philosophy was proven several times. The decline of the powers of the Sith, Bane noticing how the Dark Side was spread thin-him being damaged by something that never would have harmed him otherwhise and didn't later on. And in the ROTS novelization? Sidious's order is described as quite a bit stronger than those who had come before.

6. No Proof except LACK of evidence that he knew them? And given that Palpatine learned their best secrets and developed new ones, as well as 'unlocked the secrets of the Force', absorbed the power of holocrons...


And Byss was destroyed by the time Tavion or Desann were around

Illustrious
Durr... if it fails to count for later data, it is invalid. In the same way that story arcs can be retconned and information can be changed at will. Lucas has even said that EU can be altered. If something was released in 1985 saying there is no planet such as "Naboo" it obviously would be false, because Naboo is depicted in the PT trilogy, a newer and higher level of canonicity.

The DE sourcebook does not account for later data, which includes the most pertinent point -- Ragnos, ergo it is not accurate. It's that simple.



As I mentioned, you will never see Han Solo with higher stats than Luke Skywalker. Why? Because these stats are approved, they are not pulled from the recesses of someone's anus.

Your EU continuity is from a source book that has shown itself to be obsolete. That is QED.



OMG, don't be daft. It isn't about Gameplay. It's about CONSTANTS.

In a cutscene, we see Tavion absorbing the force from a planet, in a cutscene we see her taking out a temple on Byss with a casual sweep of Ragnos' scepter. In the game CODING we know that possessed Tavin's drain is the most powerful attack in the game.

You are arguing about gameplay variation, I'm using constants within gameplay. Big difference.



Feat wars; Logical Fallacy.

So if DE Sidious never ruled over an Empire of other force users and Sith Lords, he's weaker than Ragnos? BS. Just because he hasn't performed a particular feat does not indicate he's incapable or inferior. Get over it.

Where does it state he perfected most/all of the existing Sith techniques? It never once states or quantifies numerically how much he learned. Provided that he did plunder stuff from places already plundered, or from Sith Lords that don't teach all their abilities (Simus never taught Sadow everything, fact.), it's blatant fanboy speculation to believe otherwise.



Sidious had an order? Please. I doubt it said that Palpatine ruled over the high point of the wealthy and powerful Sith Empire like Ragnos did. That was stated in canon the highest point of Sith power. Period.

And like I said, where's the correlation between empire and person? You've yet to substantiate anything. Next!



Are any of those comparative?

No? Sorry, next.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
Durr... if it fails to count for later data, it is invalid. In the same way that story arcs can be retconned and information can be changed at will. Lucas has even said that EU can be altered. If something was released in 1985 saying there is no planet such as "Naboo" it obviously would be false, because Naboo is depicted in the PT trilogy, a newer and higher level of canonicity.

The DE sourcebook does not account for later data, which includes the most pertinent point -- Ragnos, ergo it is not accurate. It's that simple.



As I mentioned, you will never see Han Solo with higher stats than Luke Skywalker. Why? Because these stats are approved, they are not pulled from the recesses of someone's anus.

Your EU continuity is from a source book that has shown itself to be obsolete. That is QED.



OMG, don't be daft. It isn't about Gameplay. It's about CONSTANTS.

In a cutscene, we see Tavion absorbing the force from a planet, in a cutscene we see her taking out a temple on Byss with a casual sweep of Ragnos' scepter. In the game CODING we know that possessed Tavin's drain is the most powerful attack in the game.

You are arguing about gameplay variation, I'm using constants within gameplay. Big difference.



Feat wars; Logical Fallacy.

So if DE Sidious never ruled over an Empire of other force users and Sith Lords, he's weaker than Ragnos? BS. Just because he hasn't performed a particular feat does not indicate he's incapable or inferior. Get over it.

Where does it state he perfected most/all of the existing Sith techniques? It never once states or quantifies numerically how much he learned. Provided that he did plunder stuff from places already plundered, or from Sith Lords that don't teach all their abilities (Simus never taught Sadow everything, fact.), it's blatant fanboy speculation to believe otherwise.



Sidious had an order? Please. I doubt it said that Palpatine ruled over the high point of the wealthy and powerful Sith Empire like Ragnos did. That was stated in canon the highest point of Sith power. Period.

And like I said, where's the correlation between empire and person? You've yet to substantiate anything. Next!



Are any of those comparative?

No? Sorry, next.

1. Durrr! Why would that be? And sorry, direct statements to Palpatine's power were never overwritten. Unles TOTJ said "Ragnos was the best ever, there will never be another strong as Ragnos" then your point collapses. And the DE sourcebook was written...And considering the fact that the entire Tales of the Jedi storyline was already in development....and what retcons have been made? They were more likely to retcon TOTJ than DE. Just because Naboo isn't mentioned doesn't mean it didn't exist. Unless a source said "There is no planet called Naboo, Palpatine is from Coruscant." The point collapses.

2. And have a disclaimer saying they should only apply to games. It's only obsolete in your mind.

3. Nice try. Byss was DESTROYED by the time Jedi Academy came around.

4. Not an empire of DS users? Explain the Hands, Inquisitors, Dark Side Elite, Prophets, Sithspawn....Arden Lyn...

5. Sourcebook directly stated Sidious perfected those techniques, among several other places.

6. What do you call the order Sidious ended in? Wow, THE SITH ORDER maybe?

7. Yes, the Sith would refuse to teach their secrets to the remaining Sith when they'd already taught him their secrets and thought him their greatest hope and he'd succeeded in conquering the galaxy and exterminating the Jedi Order...And yes, nice one, passing up his unlcoking secrets of the Force, taking Sith and Jedi holocrons, absorbed power from both....yes, when's Ragnos destroyed a fleet? He hasn't? Did Ragnos managed to force one of the two original Dark Jedi into servitude? And kill her effortlessly?

Illustrious

Lightsnake

Illustrious
It's referenced in the very first Golden Age of the Sith comic. Anyone with the comic should have no trouble confirming it. For one who was so thoroughly pwned by scans by IKC, I'm glad you were so easily able to shrug them off. The quotes are there, and if you don't believe me, I have even less of a reason to believe your quotes, especially since you've been confirmed to lie before.

The OT and the Thrawn Crisis were just a few millenia off the Ancient Sith, don't you think?



Hah, that's exactly what I mean. TOTJ is later canon continuity. It is official and that is the retcon. The Sith Empire is more than 2000 years old, and that's where the DE sourcebook has shown an inconsistency.

TOTJ is official + newer than the DE sourcebook, it states the Sith Empire was at its peak 5000 years prior to the movies. It retconned the DE sourcebook, plain and simple.



It was a planet full of dark siders. There were Twenty Sith Lords, that's 19 more than Sidious ever had at any given time.

And where's your proof that they were there for life? Is that why Ludo Kressh brought up an ARMY to supplant Naga Sadow?

Sorgo
pwns znoobx

Sorgo
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http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5624/lightsnake1qb.gif

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Dark Aristokrat
LMAO!

IKC
Woo!

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
It's referenced in the very first Golden Age of the Sith comic. Anyone with the comic should have no trouble confirming it. For one who was so thoroughly pwned by scans by IKC, I'm glad you were so easily able to shrug them off. The quotes are there, and if you don't believe me, I have even less of a reason to believe your quotes, especially since you've been confirmed to lie before.

The OT and the Thrawn Crisis were just a few millenia off the Ancient Sith, don't you think?



Hah, that's exactly what I mean. TOTJ is later canon continuity. It is official and that is the retcon. The Sith Empire is more than 2000 years old, and that's where the DE sourcebook has shown an inconsistency.

TOTJ is official + newer than the DE sourcebook, it states the Sith Empire was at its peak 5000 years prior to the movies. It retconned the DE sourcebook, plain and simple.



It was a planet full of dark siders. There were Twenty Sith Lords, that's 19 more than Sidious ever had at any given time.

And where's your proof that they were there for life? Is that why Ludo Kressh brought up an ARMY to supplant Naga Sadow?

1. Provide 'em. I'll have the first comic shortly. Answer the question: Is the Thrawn trilogy now defunct because of later info? Still nhaven't shown how DE cotnradicts TOTJ, which contradicts the movies anyways.

2. And oh yes, from the essay: s the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, Sidious controlled the secret world of Thule (Thurra I), which Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds calls "a sleeping Sith asset in the vast space of the Outer Rim"; there, the population of 790 million is ruled by a clerical-military junta from the capital city of Hurom, and the planet has a Sith Temple and a Sith Arts Academy. This world functioned as a breeding/training ground for armies of Sith loyalists, and is dominated by priests and prophets of the religion and traditions of the vanished Sith Empire, although they did swear allegiance to Darth Bane's Sith Order and probably also to its predecessors, Exar Kun's Sith Brotherhood and Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. Sidious retained Thule for his own purposes, and deliberately erased all information about it from "histories and the few sources that documented its existence," determined that it would "continue as a resource for the Sith, not the Empire." Given its remote location in the Outer Rim, its ruling Sithian theocracy, its pervasive atmosphere of the dark side of the Force, and the devotion of its entire population to the schemes of the Sith cultists in power, it is possible that Thule served as the inspiration for Palpatine's dark side utopia on Byss, hidden within the Deep Galactic Core.

Shall I scan in Jedi vs. Sith? Where Bane says that more Dark Lords weakens the Force? Kaan ruled over a huge council of Dark Lords, was HE stronger than Ragnos? In the ROTS novelization, it's said the Sith had evolved, changed and grown stronger and Palpatine is described as the 'Lord of all Sith'

And if you bothered to read the link I provided, you'd see that sourcebooks aren't the only thing it shows by a long shot.

And no comment on how with Palpatine's death, the Dark Side itself lost power...

Lightsnake
And oh, yes....what created Ulic Qel-Droma? Wasn't KJA....Ulic was first defined in Dark Empire-post script Dark Side compendium. Original guide to characters has his first appearance as 'Dark Empire', as well as Baas and other old age lore KJA made use of

Lightsnake

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Provide 'em. I'll have the first comic shortly. Answer the question: Is the Thrawn trilogy now defunct because of later info? Still nhaven't shown how DE cotnradicts TOTJ, which contradicts the movies anyways.

I think it's not that hard to understand how things in the continuity work. Somebody writes a story (in this case Mr. Zahn), another author pics up some detail from the story (in this case Mr. Veitch) and builts his own story on it. Now writer number 3 comes up and takes stuff from writer number 2 and creates another story (in this case Mr. Anderson - who has nothing in common with NEO, just wanted to point that out).

When Zahn was writing his stuff, Sidious was the most powerful Sith because there was no concurence so far. When Veitch did write DE you have the same thing - no concurrence so far and Sidious is still the most powerful. Now Anderson steps in and "designs" the Ancient Sith by writing their story down for the first time. Now...Sidious got some concurrence. People who seem to be more powerful. Where is the logic behind using "older" source labeling Sidious "the most powerful Sith ever" when he had no rival ? After having seen the first part of the Matrix trilogy you could say that nobody would be able to defeat Neo - would you still say the same thing after having watched Agent Smith kicking his ass ?



And this is exactly saying nothing since Thule was an outpost of the ancient Sith Empire therefore a part of what Ragnos reigned over for 150 years.



How many things you want to make up to save Sidious, eh ? The ROTS novel states that the Sith can't be defeated by the light side because the more light you use against them the deeper their shadow gets. I wonder how this is of any revelance when Sidious is put up against another Dark Sider and I wonder where it states that they have become STRONGER. They are different but not stonger. Period.
And the "Lord of all Sith" stuff referres to the Dark Lord title and is true for every single DLotS in history.



And if you bothered to think and use logic instead of throwing random - and useless - information into debates you would have accepted that Ragnos is > Sidious ages ago.



Would you please listen to Lucas if he says something ? As long as there is a Dark Lord the Dark Side will be strong. Destroying the Sith results in "balance of the force" (meaning light side dominance). So of course the Dark Side lost power when Sidious died. It also lost power when Ragnos died, when Sadow died, when Kressh died...and so on...



This directly contradicts the ROTS novel which is the higher level of canon and therefore the quote is useless. Sidious can not be beaten by the light.



Again...the Force itself does something ? Why "the Force" didn't simply took away the power from him if it liked. All the Jedi ? Which Jedi are you talking about ? The living which don't care much about him after the events shown ? Or the people who have already died and remained as individuals within the force (Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Yoda could only do that for a limited amount of time, as told to Luke by Obi-Wan so that would mean -> Anakin Skywalker) ? And I guess, just because of that, the force and the Jedi are too busy to care about the spirits of Kun, Ragnos or the other ancient Sith on Korriban. Yup...seems to be allright...

OUCH !

Lightsnake
1. And KJA failed to have his Sith emasure up in any way, fancy that!

2. 100 years. And considering Sidious had created an academy asnd a bastion of power there.

3. The Sith had changed and evolved line maybe?

4. 'The Lord of all Sith met the Master of all Jedi.'

5. Proof it lost power when Ragnos, sadow and Kressh died. Especially to the degree it did when Palpatine died. In fact, if anything, it was weakened by too many
6. Really now? How does it contradict at all? In fact, it supports it as instead of fightinh him, they expose him to the light instead of fighting him

7. Brand: Palpatine will die with me, he will never return...I, and all the ones who have come ebfore will make certain of that. Goodbye my friend."

Considering the spirits on Korriban and Kun were just whining little shadows who could be dismsised by Mara Jade...I, Jedi pretty much called Kun the definition of failure and he couldn't come up with a comeback except to call the kettle black

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. And KJA failed to have his Sith emasure up in any way, fancy that!


Would you please realize that you are the only person here thinking that this is the case ?



Sidious created what there ? Everything being on that planet was there before Sidious. He just kept the planet a secret but he didn't built anything there.



It doesn't say they are stronger. Nothing indicates they're stronger and that means they aren't. Period.



Wooohooo. The title "Dark Lord of the Sith" means "Lord of all Sith" in case you still don't understand that.



Stop that notorious BS. The Dark Side loses power with every Dark Side user who dies since those people basically generate Dark Side energies. So how would the Dark Side weaken the more users it has, huh ? It's funny how Bane is talking about that too much concurrence weakens the order (and therefore installs the rule of two) and you turn it into "too many Sith make the Dark Side weak".



He can't get destroyed by exposing him to the light because "the more light, the deeper the shadow gets". I don't know what you don't understand there.



And again: Contradiction. Qui-Gon discovered or rediscovered the ability to remain as an individual within the force at least nobody in the life time of Yoda could use it. And we know that people can only remain as an individual there for about 10 or 15 years - and not thousands of years. So the "ones that came before" would be limited to Yoda, Anakin and the Jedi that died between ROTJ and the final defeat of Sidious. Not that many, eh ?



Blah, blah and blah. Look what Kun did and tell me he's the definition of failure. He turned Luke's students right under Luke's nose, manipulated, attacked and even killed one. So if Kun is the definition of failure, JA Luke who defeated your beloved Sidious is the definition of naivity.

Darth Traya
Lightsnake, Kun was pretty much able to pwn Luke when he was a weakened spirit driven mad by four thousands years of isolation, it hardly speaks of him being "the definition of failure".

Lightsnake
Pwn Luke? You mean 'suprised and double teamed him'

1. Your point being, Nai? Most everyone on TFN, Sw.com and MF share the Sidious view

2. No, he created academies of his own. Thule was long devastated.

3. Sith who couldn't be destroyed with war, Sith who couldn't be beaten....

4. With the descriptions of legions of Sith, legions of Jedi, etc...

5. Bane: "The Dark Side is spread too thin!" He said it should be embodied in one lord...then on Githany's suggestion, said 2....proof every dark lord's death weakens the DS

6. Try the entire force of the light at once. The evidence is right there and I posted it

7. Brand didn';t become a Force Ghost. He vanished into the Froce itself and eons of Jedi were described as holding Palpatine to the darkenss. Anakin, Yoda, Ulic, Arca, Vodo...Jedi don't have to become force ghosts to join the Force, everyone joins the Force....and proof it lasts for 10-15 years? Especially when you have a bastion of your power and the life force of thousands

IKC
1) Appeal to majority, logical fallacy.

Better watch yourself, I even caught that one.

Lightsnake
Oh, come on...with Nai already throwing that out, and others on this boards...And by the way, IKC, you're not one to talk about fanboyism

Darth Traya
Well, you could call me a Traya fangirl, except I don't believe that Traya could pwn all.

IKC
This from Leatherface's #1 fan, who argues that he can take Marka Ragnos, the man who ruled over the empire whose scraps Palpatine had to collect?

Glad you're so perceptive.

Lightsnake
And I don't believe Sidious could pwn all. Throw Luke, Yoda, Mace, possibly current Kyp, Jacen, Ben Skywalker later on, arguably Marka...

Marka's one thing, I could fully understand him being raised to such great heights. He's easily one of the top two, but Exar Kun is QUITE another. Hell, I've seen Freedon Nadd's name thrown around as a power house.

IKC
Except that either Marka or Exar would step on every single individual you just named as Sidious' competition, but God forbid you believe that, oh no. You have to be a Sidious apologist and commit logical fallacies in the double digits in single paragraphs. Maybe that's why your responses have been little more than one-liners recently.

Lightsnake
Maybe ebcause there is zero proof of that, just conjecture. Yoda was described in no uncertaint erms as the strongest enemy the darkness had ever known by the time of the PT. We know Yoda was one of, if not the strongest master the roder had ever produced and he has a LOT to his past-hinted areas of brushes with the Dark side, probable battles with the Sith Order of Bane, numerous fights....Dark Rendevous's a great soruce on that.

Thing is, nothing support Exar or Marka 'stomping' the others, certainly not Luke at his best. It's conjecture, plain and simple

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Your point being, Nai? Most everyone on TFN, Sw.com and MF share the Sidious view

Yeah. Than bring "most everyone" here and let them be crushed. I wonder how nearly every damn site that contains information about the Ancient Sith Empire lists its rulers (especially Ragnos) above "modern day Sith Lords" if almost all SW fans out there share your opinion.



Ah...it was long devasted and because of this it had a ruling class containing of Dark Side users that have sworn allegiance to people like Exar Kun ? And because it was long devasted their are several hundret millions of inhabitants ? And because Sidious built the place he used it as an inspiring example to "create" Byss ? WTF ?



Did you miss Sidious being put on his ass by Mace Windu ? Did you miss Vader getting toasted, crippled and finally killed ? Did you miss Dooku getting defeated by Yoda ? Did you miss Maul getting sliced in half by a Padawan ?



What "legions of Sith" under Sidious who ruled over an order of two ? Are you making up stuff again ?



You agreed with me how the force works. Essentially the "light side" is the natural state. So...if there is no limited amount of Dark Side energies (which is an ridiculous idea) how can it be "spread too thin" by too many Sith Lords ? Did Sidious became stronger after Maul died and then weaker again when Dooku became his apprentice because there was less / more Dark Side power to him ? Any other stupid ideas ?



The so called "Avatar of the light" (Yoda) can't do it but farmboy Luke can ?



What the .... ? People don't "join" the force they become one with it. This includes the LOSE of own will. They can't act individualy within the force unless they learned the technique Qui-Gon invented which was only true for Yoda, Obi-Wan and possibly Anakin. Since Anakin and Yoda have never shown up again after ROTJ, Obi-Wan's spirit is gone and the same thing can be suggested for Qui-Gon there can't be individuals left to hold Sidious back. So it must be the will of the force itself which is quite speculative since the force didn't show it's "will" before and never bothered to keep the spirits of Ancient Sith Lords under control.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Than bring "most everyone" here and let them be crushed. I wonder how nearly every damn site that contains information about the Ancient Sith Empire lists its rulers (especially Ragnos) above "modern day Sith Lords" if almost all SW fans out there share your opinion.



Ah...it was long devasted and because of this it had a ruling class containing of Dark Side users that have sworn allegiance to people like Exar Kun ? And because it was long devasted their are several hundret millions of inhabitants ? And because Sidious built the place he used it as an inspiring example to "create" Byss ? WTF ?



Did you miss Sidious being put on his ass by Mace Windu ? Did you miss Vader getting toasted, crippled and finally killed ? Did you miss Dooku getting defeated by Yoda ? Did you miss Maul getting sliced in half by a Padawan ?



What "legions of Sith" under Sidious who ruled over an order of two ? Are you making up stuff again ?



You agreed with me how the force works. Essentially the "light side" is the natural state. So...if there is no limited amount of Dark Side energies (which is an ridiculous idea) how can it be "spread too thin" by too many Sith Lords ? Did Sidious became stronger after Maul died and then weaker again when Dooku became his apprentice because there was less / more Dark Side power to him ? Any other stupid ideas ?



The so called "Avatar of the light" (Yoda) can't do it but farmboy Luke can ?



What the .... ? People don't "join" the force they become one with it. This includes the LOSE of own will. They can't act individualy within the force unless they learned the technique Qui-Gon invented which was only true for Yoda, Obi-Wan and possibly Anakin. Since Anakin and Yoda have never shown up again after ROTJ, Obi-Wan's spirit is gone and the same thing can be suggested for Qui-Gon there can't be individuals left to hold Sidious back. So it must be the will of the force itself which is quite speculative since the force didn't show it's "will" before and never bothered to keep the spirits of Ancient Sith Lords under control.

1. TFN and SW.com? By all means, go right there. Want the links?

2. All we know about Thule is Ulic had a hand in it that's all. Proof there were still millions of people there?

3. It's metaphorical, but the clash is decribed as Legions of Sith meeting Legions of Jedi, more than that: It's the light vs. Darkness.

4. I agreed it has a light and dark side, but dark side users can create areas of dark side energy. The Cave was one such place, so was Korriban and so were other Sith worlds and Yavin. And place cannot naturally be good or evil, but after thousands of years of guys living there, it'd have some effect. And take it up with Bane. Too many Dark Lords weakens the Sith themselves. Two was considered the perfect number.

5. Why is it so easy to ignore how Luke become a full avatar of the Light side in that fight and drew upon the full power of the Force?

6. Proof. All that means is they can't return. It's directly stated the Jedi of eons in the Force held Sidious in the Dark Side to make sure he'd never return. And perhaps the Ancient Sith Lords were never held in a dying Jedi's body...or since they're dead and no longer able to affect anything...It's not 'individuals' holding Sidious back, Brand faded to become one with the Force with Sidious's spirit. all the Jedi of eons make sure he never returns by holding him into the infinite abyss of the Dark Side. That's right in there. Qui-Gon didn't 'invent' the technique either. There is no proof force spirits lose their own will, because we know Anakin and Obi-wan spoke to Luke again and still exist. We've seen people contacted from the beyond, including Ulic Qel-Droma. Obi-wan chose to move on and once more: Sith spirits are different than Jedi spirits

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. TFN and SW.com? By all means, go right there. Want the links?


I wonder how people at TFN and SW.com fail to read on their own beloved websites in this case.



Oh...that statement was taken from one of your beloved "articles" that listed the populace of Thule to several millions. But to return to fact based exercise:
Ulic fought there during the great Sith War and the Dark Reaper was stored on the planet. So I pretty much fail to see where Sidious built anything there or why he should have done it. But nevermind...



A now using metaphors and hyperbole as arguments again ? It's getting boring...



The force itself is just "good" and the "Dark Side" is only generated by the way people use it. Now I wonder how the Dark Side can be weakened by too many people using it. That's complete BS. If any it would get stronger.
And too many Sith weaken the ORDER because of constant struggle for power within the order. What does that have to do with force powers. Ah...right...nothing...



Why is it so hard to understand that something like an "avatar of the light side" doesn't exists because that would mean he would have the energy of all living things in the galaxy combined which he hadn't.



So what ? If it aren't individuals holding him back it's the force itself because there isn't anything else than "individual force spirits" and "the force itself". And what logic do you use there ? The fact that people who knew the technique that Qui-Gon invented did something is proof for the statement that it can be done without knowing about that technique ? LMAO !

Dark Aristokrat
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Maybe ebcause there is zero proof of that, just conjecture. Yoda was described in no uncertaint erms as the strongest enemy the darkness had ever known by the time of the PT. We know Yoda was one of, if not the strongest master the roder had ever produced and he has a LOT to his past-hinted areas of brushes with the Dark side, probable battles with the Sith Order of Bane, numerous fights....Dark Rendevous's a great soruce on that.

Thing is, nothing support Exar or Marka 'stomping' the others, certainly not Luke at his best. It's conjecture, plain and simple

WTF? "Yoda was described in no uncertain terms as the strongest enemy the darkness had ever known by the time of the PT"?

Do you have a source for that? I want to see a scan of the page, please. That has to be absolute bullshit. In fact, list the page number if it's a novel; I might have it.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
I wonder how people at TFN and SW.com fail to read on their own beloved websites in this case.



Oh...that statement was taken from one of your beloved "articles" that listed the populace of Thule to several millions. But to return to fact based exercise:
Ulic fought there during the great Sith War and the Dark Reaper was stored on the planet. So I pretty much fail to see where Sidious built anything there or why he should have done it. But nevermind...



A now using metaphors and hyperbole as arguments again ? It's getting boring...



The force itself is just "good" and the "Dark Side" is only generated by the way people use it. Now I wonder how the Dark Side can be weakened by too many people using it. That's complete BS. If any it would get stronger.
And too many Sith weaken the ORDER because of constant struggle for power within the order. What does that have to do with force powers. Ah...right...nothing...



Why is it so hard to understand that something like an "avatar of the light side" doesn't exists because that would mean he would have the energy of all living things in the galaxy combined which he hadn't.



So what ? If it aren't individuals holding him back it's the force itself because there isn't anything else than "individual force spirits" and "the force itself". And what logic do you use there ? The fact that people who knew the technique that Qui-Gon invented did something is proof for the statement that it can be done without knowing about that technique ? LMAO !

1. I'd really like to know how you hit that conclusion....You haven't met the big heads of knowledge at TFN or SW.com.

2. At what point in time was Thule described as such? And Sidious erected a Sith Academy there...the Dark Reaper was destroyed long ago in the Clone Wars, anyways.

3. Oh, just like this 'the earth shook under his feet' or 'they were Gods' lines? No offense, but that seems rather unfair.

4. Take it up with Bane. His quote, paraphrased-I'll scan it Thursday, busy tomorrow- "The Dark Side is spread to thin! For it to be strong, it must be contained within ONE dark Lord!
Githany: Or two.
Bane: Or two....
And the Dark Side is just generated like people using it? That sounds like Vergere to me...

5. Because It's apparent things like that do exist? Luke, Leia and Anakin unborn in DE called upon the full power of the Force, just as Jacen did in TUF and Anakin did in SbS.

6. Time for you to prove up. That's pure conjecture. IT's stated the Jedi of the eons are holding Sidious to the dark side forever....and there's the tiny detail that people have communicated with individuals LONG past...Ben talks briefly to Luke after the Thrawn trilogy, Anakin speaks to the ghost of Ulic, anakin is heard by Jacen MORGAN KATARN speaks to KYle...who the hell says they aren't individual? Lucas himself said on the commentary that Qui-Gon came back from the netherworld, which no other Jedi had done...Force ghosts can commune with the living, but there's still a world waiting on the other side. Hell, Vima says to Rayf a dying Jem 'goes to join the company of the great masters in the world beyond death'


Oh, yes, Yoda's credentials? Visual dictionary, Complete Locations, ROTS novelization

IKC
1) Appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

4) Bane is not the only authority on the Force and he's been contradicted by the other logic and evidence Nai keeps bringing up. Appeal to authority without adequately arguing your conclusion.

5) Begging the question. What is your conclusion here? The Force is described as the ultimate power in the universe, Sith Lords were able to twist it to perform godlike feats (among them ripping the cores from stars, for instance). If those three called upon "the full power of the Force" they would have done way more than simply push Palpatine's force storm on him. Hyperbole.

Captain REX
4) That is simply Bane's view of the Force. Many people of a different view of the Force. For example, some Dark Lords could see it as a weapon for destruction while others consider it a method of clouding judgment and concealing oneself. Another example, the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. Potentium. Unifying. Dark and Light. *shrug*

5) Calling upon the full power of the Force does not make one an avatar of the Force. Only Anakin could reasonably claim that title. His children are not avatars themselves.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I'd really like to know how you hit that conclusion....You haven't met the big heads of knowledge at TFN or SW.com.

How do you know who I have met in my personal history as SW Fan, internet user and convention visitor.



What ? I'm using the stuff that you have quoted yourself. When it fits your assertions it's the absolute an undenieable truth - when it is used against you it was never there ? I love it...



Have you ever seen somebody here arguing the power of the Ancient Sith or Kun only by that statements ?



No. That sounds like Lucas himself. I remind you: The lightside is the force in his natural state therefore the Dark Side is unnatural and killing all Sith is said to be the thing to do if you want to "balance" the force again - meaning restore the natural "lightside" state. So any Dark Side user existing would tap the balance in favour of the Dark Side. So I don't have to take it up with Bane - you have to take it up with Lucas himself who overrides anything else. Especially personal views by single characters.



And Luke somehow later lost that ability and that's why he thing it would need the combined force of the entire Academy to try fighting a living Ragnos ? Notice that this "combined" force would include a later (and if any more powerful) version of Luke, a "born" Anakin (therefore if any more powerful). So unless you want to tell me that the combined power of people like Kyp Durron, Jacen and Jaina, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn etc. is less than the power of an untrained Leia...Ragnos > Sidious

And an "avatar of the force" regardless which side can't exist. Even Anakin himself if he ever had reached full potential couldn't have claimed that title since "avatar" would mean 100 % the force projected into a corporal form and such a thing doesn't exist. Even more unlogic to claim that a "avatar of the light side" and an "avatar of the Dark Side" can exist at once since they are basically the same power.



I like how you're making things up. Anakin and Obi-Wan can be left out for knowing the technique invented by Qui-Gon. Same goes for Yoda. Kyle wasn't speaking to Morgan Katarn who wasn't a Jedi he was just watching a holo-disc (time to do your homework before start argueing with me).

So the people that "came back" to talk to somebody:
- Ulic (talking to Anakin in the AotC game)
- Vodo (returning to defeat Kun)
- Qui-Gon (voice heared in AotC and he's "teaching" Yoda and Obi-Wan his technique)
- Anakin (who is basically at least 50 % the force itself and might have been taught by Qui-Gon)

And I love how I should proof up when you argue against pretty much everything stated so far. When you want to take it to a canon level the only people who have shown the ability to remain as "individuals within the force" (I wonder how you missed that statement in the ROTS novel) are Qui-Gon, who taught it to Obi-Wan and Yoda (as mentioned in ROTS) and Anakin who's 50 % the force itself. I could pretty easily argue that anything else was overwritten by ROTS (movie + novel).



I know what Yoda has done and what he's descriped as. The ROTS novel says he's the "Avatar of light" but that can be dismissed as said above since something like this can't simply exists especially not when Anakin had the higher force potential which would make him 100+ % the force. Ridiculous.

Aside from that he has defeated a Dark Jedi on Dagobah, he possibly fought some Sith Lords (or one) in his early years (which according to you would be less powerful compared to Sidious), fought Dooku into a stalemate or defeated him (at least Dooku managed to escape). Now how does that add to your point. He was fighting people who are - according to yourself - all weaker than Sidious and Sidious - according to a statement from Luke himself - would be nothing compared to Ragnos. So unless you can pull something up that overwrites Luke statement (which you can't since there is no other comment on the power of a living Ragnos) you can consider this debate to be over since there is nothing to argue here. Ragnos > Sidious.

ResubianNushi
Originally posted by Borbarad
How do you know who I have met in my personal history as SW Fan, internet user and convention visitor.



What ? I'm using the stuff that you have quoted yourself. When it fits your assertions it's the absolute an undenieable truth - when it is used against you it was never there ? I love it...



Have you ever seen somebody here arguing the power of the Ancient Sith or Kun only by that statements ?



No. That sounds like Lucas himself. I remind you: The lightside is the force in his natural state therefore the Dark Side is unnatural and killing all Sith is said to be the thing to do if you want to "balance" the force again - meaning restore the natural "lightside" state. So any Dark Side user existing would tap the balance in favour of the Dark Side. So I don't have to take it up with Bane - you have to take it up with Lucas himself who overrides anything else. Especially personal views by single characters.



And Luke somehow later lost that ability and that's why he thing it would need the combined force of the entire Academy to try fighting a living Ragnos ? Notice that this "combined" force would include a later (and if any more powerful) version of Luke, a "born" Anakin (therefore if any more powerful). So unless you want to tell me that the combined power of people like Kyp Durron, Jacen and Jaina, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn etc. is less than the power of an untrained Leia...Ragnos > Sidious

And an "avatar of the force" regardless which side can't exist. Even Anakin himself if he ever had reached full potential couldn't have claimed that title since "avatar" would mean 100 % the force projected into a corporal form and such a thing doesn't exist. Even more unlogic to claim that a "avatar of the light side" and an "avatar of the Dark Side" can exist at once since they are basically the same power.



I like how you're making things up. Anakin and Obi-Wan can be left out for knowing the technique invented by Qui-Gon. Same goes for Yoda. Kyle wasn't speaking to Morgan Katarn who wasn't a Jedi he was just watching a holo-disc (time to do your homework before start argueing with me).

So the people that "came back" to talk to somebody:
- Ulic (talking to Anakin in the AotC game)
- Vodo (returning to defeat Kun)
- Qui-Gon (voice heared in AotC and he's "teaching" Yoda and Obi-Wan his technique)
- Anakin (who is basically at least 50 % the force itself and might have been taught by Qui-Gon)

And I love how I should proof up when you argue against pretty much everything stated so far. When you want to take it to a canon level the only people who have shown the ability to remain as "individuals within the force" (I wonder how you missed that statement in the ROTS novel) are Qui-Gon, who taught it to Obi-Wan and Yoda (as mentioned in ROTS) and Anakin who's 50 % the force itself. I could pretty easily argue that anything else was overwritten by ROTS (movie + novel).



I know what Yoda has done and what he's descriped as. The ROTS novel says he's the "Avatar of light" but that can be dismissed as said above since something like this can't simply exists especially not when Anakin had the higher force potential which would make him 100+ % the force. Ridiculous.

Aside from that he has defeated a Dark Jedi on Dagobah, he possibly fought some Sith Lords (or one) in his early years (which according to you would be less powerful compared to Sidious), fought Dooku into a stalemate or defeated him (at least Dooku managed to escape). Now how does that add to your point. He was fighting people who are - according to yourself - all weaker than Sidious and Sidious - according to a statement from Luke himself - would be nothing compared to Ragnos. So unless you can pull something up that overwrites Luke statement (which you can't since there is no other comment on the power of a living Ragnos) you can consider this debate to be over since there is nothing to argue here. Ragnos > Sidious.

HAHA!




You messed some grammar. The 'A' before 'Avatar of hte Light side' should be an 'An'.

IKC
Glad you could contribute intelligently to the discussion.

ResubianNushi
Originally posted by IKC
Glad you could contribute intelligently to the discussion.

There isn't much to contribute. Lightsnake has no argument left, so I believe it's unaminous.

Borbarad
Originally posted by ResubianNushi
HAHA!

You messed some grammar. The 'A' before 'Avatar of hte Light side' should be an 'An'.

Considering the fact that English is a foreign language to me I have to say that I can live with that mistake...

IKC
Oh, indeed. That's the story of what, five or six threads so far?

ResubianNushi
Originally posted by Borbarad
Considering the fact that English is a foreign language to me I have to say that I can live with that mistake...

I vow never to make fun of your grammar, since mine is actually probably worse.

Lord Darkstar
Then do not come into a thread merely to critique a person for a minor mistake when later you say that you are likely worse

ResubianNushi
Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Then do not come into a thread merely to critique a person for a minor mistake when later you say that you are likely worse

The value of sarcasm has fallen greatly...........

Dark Aristokrat
Relax, guys. He's just kidding.

Lord Darkstar
Alright, sorry about that

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
How do you know who I have met in my personal history as SW Fan, internet user and convention visitor.



What ? I'm using the stuff that you have quoted yourself. When it fits your assertions it's the absolute an undenieable truth - when it is used against you it was never there ? I love it...



Have you ever seen somebody here arguing the power of the Ancient Sith or Kun only by that statements ?



No. That sounds like Lucas himself. I remind you: The lightside is the force in his natural state therefore the Dark Side is unnatural and killing all Sith is said to be the thing to do if you want to "balance" the force again - meaning restore the natural "lightside" state. So any Dark Side user existing would tap the balance in favour of the Dark Side. So I don't have to take it up with Bane - you have to take it up with Lucas himself who overrides anything else. Especially personal views by single characters.



And Luke somehow later lost that ability and that's why he thing it would need the combined force of the entire Academy to try fighting a living Ragnos ? Notice that this "combined" force would include a later (and if any more powerful) version of Luke, a "born" Anakin (therefore if any more powerful). So unless you want to tell me that the combined power of people like Kyp Durron, Jacen and Jaina, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn etc. is less than the power of an untrained Leia...Ragnos > Sidious

And an "avatar of the force" regardless which side can't exist. Even Anakin himself if he ever had reached full potential couldn't have claimed that title since "avatar" would mean 100 % the force projected into a corporal form and such a thing doesn't exist. Even more unlogic to claim that a "avatar of the light side" and an "avatar of the Dark Side" can exist at once since they are basically the same power.



I like how you're making things up. Anakin and Obi-Wan can be left out for knowing the technique invented by Qui-Gon. Same goes for Yoda. Kyle wasn't speaking to Morgan Katarn who wasn't a Jedi he was just watching a holo-disc (time to do your homework before start argueing with me).

So the people that "came back" to talk to somebody:
- Ulic (talking to Anakin in the AotC game)
- Vodo (returning to defeat Kun)
- Qui-Gon (voice heared in AotC and he's "teaching" Yoda and Obi-Wan his technique)
- Anakin (who is basically at least 50 % the force itself and might have been taught by Qui-Gon)

And I love how I should proof up when you argue against pretty much everything stated so far. When you want to take it to a canon level the only people who have shown the ability to remain as "individuals within the force" (I wonder how you missed that statement in the ROTS novel) are Qui-Gon, who taught it to Obi-Wan and Yoda (as mentioned in ROTS) and Anakin who's 50 % the force itself. I could pretty easily argue that anything else was overwritten by ROTS (movie + novel).



I know what Yoda has done and what he's descriped as. The ROTS novel says he's the "Avatar of light" but that can be dismissed as said above since something like this can't simply exists especially not when Anakin had the higher force potential which would make him 100+ % the force. Ridiculous.

Aside from that he has defeated a Dark Jedi on Dagobah, he possibly fought some Sith Lords (or one) in his early years (which according to you would be less powerful compared to Sidious), fought Dooku into a stalemate or defeated him (at least Dooku managed to escape). Now how does that add to your point. He was fighting people who are - according to yourself - all weaker than Sidious and Sidious - according to a statement from Luke himself - would be nothing compared to Ragnos. So unless you can pull something up that overwrites Luke statement (which you can't since there is no other comment on the power of a living Ragnos) you can consider this debate to be over since there is nothing to argue here. Ragnos > Sidious.

1./ Come to TFN and SW.com then, why don't you?

2. And there was nothing ther eon the history of Thule, just the satus of it under Palpatine.

3. Yes.

4. Which doesn't account for the numerous other darksiders running around....things have been explained. Sith aren't your average run of the mill dark sider...Palpatine would need to die to save the balance, but General Grievous and Gethzerion would not

5. Except the direct text misporves you wrong here. Jacen. Ganner. Anakin. Luke. Even if they're not 'avatars' they were opened completely and utterly to the Force. Name ONE other force user duel that whose combatanants were so powerful to be felt across the galaxy by any force sensitive.

6. Which is why Morgan appears in the Valley of the JUedi to warn Kyle? Anakin never learned Qui-gon's technique and Obi-wan was gone in the Thrawn trilogy and speaks again from the Force twenty years later. And you've avoided this: Coming back from the netherworld isn't just 'retaining yourself' there is no proof that JEdi lose their sense of self within the Force. In fact, evidence swings against it.

7. Yeah, Luke compared Ragnos to Sidious now? I recall him mentioning hiow much it'd take to stop HETHRIR....and great, you can automatically dismiss a line now? Because it doesn't fit your version of the continuity? That's a little biased.

just look at expressions of power now: Palpatine's expression of power-not even his ultimate power was felt all across the galaxy. Palpatine unelashed the rgeatest weapon of the Sith and obliterated a feat. Palpatine was stated to have amstered every aspect of the Force, from the Sith to the JEdi, to the Tund, to the Krath....he created NEW and powerful techniques....Oh, wait, I forgot, actually describing someone's power is a feat war

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Yeah, Luke compared Ragnos to Sidious now? I recall him mentioning hiow much it'd take to stop HETHRIR....and great, you can automatically dismiss a line now? Because it doesn't fit your version of the continuity? That's a little biased.

just look at expressions of power now: Palpatine's expression of power-not even his ultimate power was felt all across the galaxy. Palpatine unelashed the rgeatest weapon of the Sith and obliterated a feat. Palpatine was stated to have amstered every aspect of the Force, from the Sith to the JEdi, to the Tund, to the Krath....he created NEW and powerful techniques....Oh, wait, I forgot, actually describing someone's power is a feat war

Luke who has already bested Sidious at that point thought it would need him and the combined power of everybody in the Academy to try and fight a living Ragnos. What exactly didn't you understand there. Luke defeated Sidious with a little help of unborn Anakin and Leia. How would "DE Luke +unborn Anakin + Leia" be more powerful than a more experienced and more powerful Luke + the combined power of a born Anakin, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn and dozens of other people ? Do you want to argue that ? Ragnos > Sidious.

And I don't have to look at the "expression of power". We have seen Ragnos using nothing since we have never seen him alive and still Luke things that he's a greater threat than Sidious ever was. What do you want to argue here ?
That Sidious had access to knowledge that came from the ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE which RAGNOS DOMINATED FOR OVER A CENTURY and therefore is greater than somebody who DOMINATED THE ENTIRETY OF THE PEOPLE WHO DID INVENT THAT KNOWLEDGE ? Or that Sidious who had only access to what was left of the complete knowledge Ragnos had would be more proficient and have more knowledge than Ragnos himself. If you have every bit of knowledge that can be optained from Ancient Egypt Culture today would you know more about it than a Pharao from that time ? No ? THIS IS WHAT YOU TRY TO ARGUE HERE. Give it up - you have lost since Luke's own statement isn't contradicted. Period.

Darth Faunus
One more thing. In Dark Lord, Sidious says that, had Anakin died on Mustafar, he would have had to find the knowledge to manipulate midichlorians and influence them to do his bidding. He then says that this was knowledge once possessed by the most powerful of the Ancient Sith.

Whoops. There goes 'cideus nose1!'.

Illustrious
Ragnos' ghost made the force "tremble." No battle necessary, him giving his lecture does that.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
Luke who has already bested Sidious at that point thought it would need him and the combined power of everybody in the Academy to try and fight a living Ragnos. What exactly didn't you understand there. Luke defeated Sidious with a little help of unborn Anakin and Leia. How would "DE Luke +unborn Anakin + Leia" be more powerful than a more experienced and more powerful Luke + the combined power of a born Anakin, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn and dozens of other people ? Do you want to argue that ? Ragnos > Sidious.

And I don't have to look at the "expression of power". We have seen Ragnos using nothing since we have never seen him alive and still Luke things that he's a greater threat than Sidious ever was. What do you want to argue here ?
That Sidious had access to knowledge that came from the ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE which RAGNOS DOMINATED FOR OVER A CENTURY and therefore is greater than somebody who DOMINATED THE ENTIRETY OF THE PEOPLE WHO DID INVENT THAT KNOWLEDGE ? Or that Sidious who had only access to what was left of the complete knowledge Ragnos had would be more proficient and have more knowledge than Ragnos himself. If you have every bit of knowledge that can be optained from Ancient Egypt Culture today would you know more about it than a Pharao from that time ? No ? THIS IS WHAT YOU TRY TO ARGUE HERE. Give it up - you have lost since Luke's own statement isn't contradicted. Period.

1. a LITTLE Help? If by a 'little' you mean 'calling upon the entire power of the Force a la Jacen in TUF...and that's not an easy state for JEdi to reach. And Luke says they need their entire strengtht o stop Hethrir....and Kueller.

2. Exactly. We've seen ragnos using nothing. And he also had access to knowledge Ragnos could never have known existed. And proof Luke thinks Ragnos was a greater threat than Sidious ever was? He thought Sidious was a threat to the force itself.

Darth Faunus
1) You didn't answer him. How do DE Luke, unborn Anakin, and untrained Leia have more combined power than a more powerful Luke, a pre-teen Anakin, teenage / pre-teen Jacen and Jaina, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn, Kyp Durron, Kam Solusar, Jaden Korr, etc.

Short answer? They don't.

2) How would he have access to knowledge Ragnos didn't even know about when that knowledge was created in Ragnos's time? Hell, Sidious even stated that Plagueis once let him view the ancient holocrons he possessed. Once. So Plagueis knows more about the Dark Side and its secrets than Sidious. Ups.

Lightsnake
1. Simple: Because those three together were literally channeling the entire force against Palpatine and weren't using it to fight him, quite the opposite: They used it to protect him and draw him into the light.

2. What knowledge could Ragnos have had of the Jedi and their abilities? And it's a bit unfair to compare Plageuis to Sidious when Sidious is still an apprentice and hasn't had time to get what he'll have later...plus, we know next to nothing about Plageuis, but his little teaching method sounds...awesome

Darth Faunus
1) And apparently, Luke didn't even consider that a viable option against Ragnos. Uh oh.

2) What knowledge would he have needed about the Jedi abilities? Most of the Jedi holocrons and databases were most likely about history, past figures of importance, philosophy, and ideology. Again, anything that Sidious knows about the Sith and the Dark Side, Ragnos knows, and much, much more.

Lightsnake
1. Chalk that up to another 'leap frogging of powers' in the EU....in one comic, Leia's portrayed with the skill of Nomi Sunrider...next book, she's a beauracrat with no skill...it's possible they couldn't use that against Ragnos with the absence of Leia and an unborn Force kid whose potential could be directed...

2. There's still a lot of Jedi abilities to learn, Morichiro for example? We know Sidious mastered EVERY aspect of the sith and the Jedi, plus the other Force devoted sects. And once more: Morichiro, a technique Ragnos can't know about-I believe it was invented much later would kill an opponent instantly

Dark Aristokrat
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Chalk that up to another 'leap frogging of powers' in the EU....in one comic, Leia's portrayed with the skill of Nomi Sunrider...next book, she's a beauracrat with no skill...it's possible they couldn't use that against Ragnos with the absence of Leia and an unborn Force kid whose potential could be directed...

2. There's still a lot of Jedi abilities to learn, Morichiro for example? We know Sidious mastered EVERY aspect of the sith and the Jedi, plus the other Force devoted sects. And once more: Morichiro, a technique Ragnos can't know about-I believe it was invented much later would kill an opponent instantly

1- So Luke can only beat Ragnos with an unborn baby's potential and his halfwit sister? Are we really building a case here?

2- First, prove that Sidious mastered EVERY aspect of the Sith and the Jedi. Not only is it impossible, but it's unlikely, improbable, and it opens up all sorts of questions like "Why did he need to take power in the shadows?" "Why did he have to have Anakin and Clone troops kill the jedi if he was that uber?" "Why did he rely on superweapons if he had the knowledge of Sith Lords who could toy with stars using their trinkets?" "Why did he let Mace beat his ass and melt his face if he was so damn knowledgable and uber?" "Why why why why?"

Why? Cuz he doesn't know all of it. That's bullshit. And Morichiro, the fabled Force technique, is not a symbol of power. Yaddle knew of it. I doubt Ragnos, who stepped all over Simus (Who could maintain himself as a living head for over a century) would be pwned by Morichiro. So please, give it up.

Lightsnake

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