Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Setting is in the Cloud City. Who wins?

I'm guessing OT Vader. Well, he has the physical power to beat her down, especially since she uses to blades. I think he'll be fast enough to blcok her attacks for long enough to kill her. Vader wins.

I don't think he's fast enough to contend with her, really. She could put up a fight for him when he was in prime form.

I don't know. I've been rewatching the OT fights and they move as fast as the PT guys a lot. I think Asajj's best chance is to try and get in fast and take him out quick, it a long fight, he'll will because he doesn't tire(at least I don't think he does, being a machine and all.)

I say Vader, though only just. As far as we know Asajj survived ROTS. She wants to get away from the war but now it's over and if Darth Sidious approached her and said he'd make her his apprentice if she beated Vader in a duel I'm sure she'd have been honored. But Sidious didn't approach her? Why? Cause Vader must be stronger.

Sidious probably thought she was dead, seeing as almost everyone else did.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I say Vader, though only just. As far as we know Asajj survived ROTS. She wants to get away from the war but now it's over and if Darth Sidious approached her and said he'd make her his apprentice if she beated Vader in a duel I'm sure she'd have been honored. But Sidious didn't approach her? Why? Cause Vader must be stronger.

He didn't approach her cause:
1) He didn't know where she is, and thought she was dead.
2) He didn't anticipate vader gettin' deep fried

Back on topic though; Asajj would take this if it was suited vader, cause Vader is about agile as C-3PO. He also wouldn't be able to handle her double sabers. He had a hard time with her when he fought her just before ROTS, and suited vader is much weaker than ROTS Anakin.

Why does everyone think OT characters are so slow? They move rather fast, actually. Not as flashy as PT characters, but they can move their sabers as fast as OT characters.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why does everyone think OT characters are so slow? They move rather fast, actually. Not as flashy as PT characters, but they can move their sabers as fast as OT characters.
I meant he is slow cause is is 1/2 machine; it's like medieval knights in their armor.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't know. I've been rewatching the OT fights and they move as fast as the PT guys a lot. I think Asajj's best chance is to try and get in fast and take him out quick, it a long fight, he'll will because he doesn't tire(at least I don't think he does, being a machine and all.)

I just rewatched the whole OT and I still think that Asajj can tool Vader or Luke. Their speed isn't neccessarily comparable.

Originally posted by calvin44
I meant he is slow cause is is 1/2 machine; it's like medieval knights in their armor.

Who could probably take a much faster Samurai. Even if Asajj get's in a hit, it won't necessarily kill him since Luke got a hit on him in ESB, but it was resisted by is armor. And there is the idea that Vader is just like GG, except more advanced. GG was certainly fast enough to deal with Asajj.

Then again, I admit to beinning a major OT Luke and Vader fan.

Okay, he may have thought she was dead but do we have proof on this? As for knowing where she was, he hunted down nearly all the Jedi. If he put a huge bounty on her head, asking for her alive...


So the fastest combatants are the strongest? So then Master Obi-Wan pwns all? No, hell no, Mace eidn't move than fast in ROTS either but he's still good.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay, he may have thought she was dead but do we have proof on this? As for knowing where she was, he hunted down nearly all the Jedi. If he put a huge bounty on her head, asking for her alive...

They didn't hunt many down, most were killed during the first minute or two of the Purge. She wouldn't be the first to escape either.

Originally posted by darthsith19
So the fastest combatants are the strongest? So then Master Obi-Wan pwns all? No, hell no, Mace eidn't move than fast in ROTS either but he's still good.

Agreed. Power helps, especially against people who only have one hand on each saber.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Then again, I admit to beinning a major OT Luke and Vader fan.
Not me. I like Luke and Vader no better than I like Asajj.


But they did hunt some down, I'd guess at least a hundred. Anyways, Sidious is the Empire. he has lots of contacts. Jabba put a 250 thousand price on Solo's head and it was enough that, according to Greedo, every Bounty Hunter in the galaxy is looking for him. What was the price on the Devorian than Boba captured before retiring? Cause I know it was the largest bounty in the galaxy. Shadows of the Empire states than Vader's fortune's so but one could spend their whole life digging in it and never reach the bottom. It's only logical to assume Sidious's is at least as big. If he out, say, a 50 million credit bounty on Asajj alive she'd be found.

Originally posted by darthsith19
So the fastest combatants are the strongest? So then Master Obi-Wan pwns all? No, hell no, Mace eidn't move than fast in ROTS either but he's still good.

Vader wouldn't be fast enough to block her attacks.

Here's the response: Yes, he can!

Support? None.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Not me. I like Luke and Vader no better than I like Asajj.


But they did hunt some down, I'd guess at least a hundred. Anyways, Sidious is the Empire. he has lots of contacts. Jabba put a 250 thousand price on Solo's head and it was enough that, according to Greedo, every Bounty Hunter in the galaxy is looking for him. What was the price on the Devorian than Boba captured before retiring? Cause I know it was the largest bounty in the galaxy. Shadows of the Empire states than Vader's fortune's so but one could spend their whole life digging in it and never reach the bottom. It's only logical to assume Sidious's is at least as big. If he out, say, a 50 million credit bounty on Asajj alive she'd be found.
But he wouldnt, cause he thought she was dead, which Anakin and Dooku told him!

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Here's the response: Yes, he can!

Support? None.
You talkin' to me?

Let me make this case SIMPLE.

Asajj has contended with Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto and Anakin numerous times. She has slain several jedi masters, a few of which weren't slouches in combat (Dark Rendezvoous). She is said on the Starwars.com databank as perfecting the two bladed style. She was a student of Dooku and a very cunning and deadly opponent.

Contrast this with limited mobility OT Vader, who cannot prevent Luke Skywalker from getting swift hits on him and who has not fought a dangerous opponent on Asajj's level in years. Vader suffers from decreased force powers, a limited saber style, and no real offensive powers above her own.

I find this pretty easily in Asajj's favor.

What we are saying is, Vader has arthritis.

We'd also be comparing and contrasting with a younger Anakin Skywalker who destroyed Asajj twice and has improved since then. And I'd put the Dark Woman on a tier a bit above Asajj

Eh, no. No we wouldn't be comparing and contrasting that Anakin since he got his limbs lopped off and his force potential maimed.

It also probably hurts to move when your skin is uber tight, cause you are a walking third-degree burn.

When Anakin first trashed Asajj, he wasn't close to Vader in the OT. Maimed or no, he was still a monster

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Let me make this case SIMPLE.

Asajj has contended with Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto and Anakin numerous times. She has slain several jedi masters, a few of which weren't slouches in combat (Dark Rendezvoous). She is said on the Starwars.com databank as perfecting the two bladed style. She was a student of Dooku and a very cunning and deadly opponent.

Vader has all of Anakin's knowledge though. He has fought he mutiple times before and understands how she fights, but she has almost no idea of how he fights because it was said that Vader had to change his style to let him make the best use of his suit. Vader has another 20 years of training and although his armor hurts him a lot, it also helps him. It gives him extreme strength, keeps him from tiring as fast during combat, and protects him from a lightsaber wound that took down Obi-wan in AOTC.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Contrast this with limited mobility OT Vader, who cannot prevent Luke Skywalker from getting swift hits on him and who has not fought a dangerous opponent on Asajj's level in years. Vader suffers from decreased force powers, a limited saber style, and no real offensive powers above her own.

I find this pretty easily in Asajj's favor.

Vader has had another 20 years to pratice these new saber skills and has faced Luke, who is quite powerful. Luke was doing many of the same things that Anakin did between AOTC and ROTS, but no one thinks Anakin in ROTS is just a little more powerful then his Rots version.

Yeah, okay. Gotta love the movie bias/ OT bias.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Yeah, okay. Gotta love the movie bias/ OT bias.

Wait, you sound sarcastic. You mean some people don't love it?

Anyway, how am I being biased? Everything I stated is fact.

Can we stop passing off points as 'Ot/movie' bias?
How about everytime someone mentions ANYTHING good about anyone in the EU, we instantly call it 'EU/Bias, Starwars defliers, KJA fanboys' among other things.

Vader killed the Dark Woman shortly before ANH...like I said, I have the feeling she was waaay above Asajj

When I see "Vader contended with Luke and we all know how powerful Luke was" and this is used without sneering, I begin to question the opposing side.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
When I see "Vader contended with Luke and we all know how powerful Luke was" and this is used without sneering, I begin to question the opposing side.

When was that used?

"Vader has had another 20 years to pratice these new saber skills and has faced Luke, who is quite powerful"

Sorry, I reworded it. That is the original quote.

It's true, though. Vader really does have another 20 years and has faced Ventress many times, yet she hasn't faced OT Vader, who fights very differently from the one Asajj fought.

Why shouldn't Luke be powerful? No one can deny that he has things like the Kaiburr crystal. Look at how much power Anakin gained in the three years of the Clone Wars. Now, compare that to Luke's 4 in the Galatic Civil War. What makes them so different.

It's true, though. Vader really does have another 20 years and has faced Ventress many times, yet she hasn't faced OT Vader, who fights very differently from the one Asajj fought.

1- Where does it show Vader perfecting his saber skills for 20 years? Against who?

2- Since when is knowing OT Vader's style important? ESB Luke could contend with him, and Asajj would MURDER him.

3- How can Vader account for her blinding speed and twin blades?


Why shouldn't Luke be powerful? No one can deny that he has things like the Kaiburr crystal. Look at how much power Anakin gained in the three years of the Clone Wars. Now, compare that to Luke's 4 in the Galatic Civil War. What makes them so different.

Luke is WEAK in the OT. He isn't refined, he isn't experienced, and he isn't a threat to Vader, considering that Luke has no discipline or real power. I really don't see how you can consider Luke the equivalent of a jedi knight when he doesn't have a fraction of the experience, control, and whatnot of even an average jedi.

1. I'd say the numerous Jedi he hunted and killed.

2. I doubt Vader was trying to carve Luke into pieces....Luke WAS his son, afterall.

3. The same way Vader accounted for the Dark WOman's speed, and the eight Jedi who went after him at once in 'Purge'

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
1- Where does it show Vader perfecting his saber skills for 20 years? Against who?

Kam, Jerec, ect. There were plenty of other Dark Jedi for him to fight. He also fought the Royal Guards(to show them they weren't as strong as the dark side).

How are you going to prove that Vader just sat on his butt for 20 years? That's completely out of character as in that new Luceno book, we learn this, "Vader stood ground: I do not fear death, my Master.

Palpatine: Then why go on living, my young apprentice?

Vader: To learn to become more powerful."

Yeah, he definatly just sat back and drank Starbucks while eatching ESPN all day.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
2- Since when is knowing OT Vader's style important? ESB Luke could contend with him, and Asajj would MURDER him.

Vader was playing with Luke. Vader pwned Luke in like 20 seconds after he got mad. Luke could content with him? Sounds like anti-movie bias to me.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
3- How can Vader account for her blinding speed and twin blades?

He can overpower her with ease. Vader has far more experince and knowledge of her form. Believe it or not, knowing how someone fights means a ton in a fight, believe me, I do it for a sport.

Vader probably has better force powers as knows everything Anakin did and has been learning from Sidious for as long as he had been alive by ROTS.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Luke is WEAK in the OT. He isn't refined, he isn't experienced, and he isn't a threat to Vader, considering that Luke has no discipline or real power. I really don't see how you can consider Luke the equivalent of a jedi knight when he doesn't have a fraction of the experience, control, and whatnot of even an average jedi.

Luke has fought more then plenty of people. He took on Black Sun, Jabba's Sail Barge guys, ect. Luke also has demonstrated abilites like force choke and was able to use the force to increase his physical strength to the level necessary to defeat Guri, who was a powerful human replica droid. He won that fight unarmed, but he should have been pwned seeing as she was described as having superhuman strength.

And lets look at people like Nomi, who, with equal amounts of time became very powerful.

Wait, if he isn't a threat to Vader?!?!... You just said that ESB Luke could contend with him.

Assaj could have been training, and visiting Korriban; we just don't know. In ANH Vader is extremely slow, while in "The Clone Wars" show Assaj is easily quite more agile than ROTS Anakin. Speed is a higher advantage than power/strength/knowledge in this case; it's just like David and Goliath.

We're comparing a cartoon to actual actors?

Originally posted by calvin44
Assaj could have been training, and visiting Korriban; we just don't know. In ANH Vader is extremely slow, while in "The Clone Wars" show Assaj is easily quite more agile than ROTS Anakin. Speed is a higher advantage than power/strength/knowledge in this case; it's just like David and Goliath.

Yeah, in the Clone Wars cartoon she moved that fast, but then again, GG moved faster then Yoda in those.

ANH Vader means nothing as he fought so much better in ESB and ROTJ.

It doesn't matter what Asajj did after the Clone Wars, unless it was killing some frozen Ancient Sith Lord or something, because we have no indication of her power after that point and can't debate it. Using that logic I could argue that someone like Ben Skywalker, an 8 year old kid with almost no knowledge of the force, could pwn Exar, because of things he did later on. It doesn't work.

Originally posted by calvin44
Vader wouldn't be fast enough to block her attacks.
Vader's speed in comparison to Asajj's is equal to Mace's speed in to comparison with Sidious's speed in the duel between him and Yoda. And who won between Yoda and Mace?

Okay, I never knew he was told that. But surely someone knows she's alive.

Who's power is 80% of the Emperor's. I doubt Asajj's is. I'll leave Faunus to tell you about the Jedi Vader kills in DL.

The Dark Woman lost to Aurra Sing, so no.

Gotta love the Asajj fanboyism.

Okay, we never even see Vader fight his best. As for ESB Luke contending with him... well, near the end he didn't do to shabby but notice at the beginning that Vader knocked him down right away and could have killed him then. After Luke cut Vader's arm Vader stopped the duel right then. He was in complete control the whole time.

calvin44, speed doesn't mean everything. See my example of Mace on page 1.

1. Sidious wasn't exactly half machine though, so you cant compare there.

3. It is comparable to David and Goliath.

4. exactly

5. What leads you to believe we are Asajj fanboys, we only think she would win, and are trying to prove our point.

Calvin, speed had nothing to do with David killing Goliath. David won because of a better weapon and possibly divine intervention.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Calvin, speed had nothing to do with David killing Goliath. David won because of a better weapon and possibly divine intervention.
a slingshot is better than a giant club?

The big oaf (Goliath, Vader) loses to the more agile and quicker opponent(David, Assaj).

It wasn't a sling shot, it was just a sling, which can drive a rock five inches into your head from 20 yards is a lot better then a sword.

actually, it was a sling shot, if you've read the bible.

Not a modern sling shot. You have to think about back when it was written. This is more what David used:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9915/0sb11820m420sling6pk.th.jpg

which is essentially a sling shot when use in scale to a giant.

It has little to do with his speed though. There is no reason to compare it to this fight because the reason David won was because of a better weapon and possibly divine intervention. Speed had nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why does everyone think OT characters are so slow? They move rather fast, actually. Not as flashy as PT characters, but they can move their sabers as fast as OT characters.

That is true. I just watched the Empire Strikes Back and Vader and Luke moved pretty fast. Vader even moved fast enough to block Han's blaster with his hand and he even made it seem like nothing happened.
Vader would defeat Asajj.

Janus is an Asajj fanboy. Who do you think I'm a fanboy of (just curious)?

Exactly.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Janus is an Asajj fanboy. Who do you think I'm a fanboy of (just curious)?

Exactly.

DS, I do not think Janus is an Asajj fanboy. He lacks the most important trait of a fanboy, lack of logic and proof to back up his claims. He's more of an anti-movie fanboy, which is understandable do to all of the anti-EU fanboys around that are a thousand times worse then he could ever be(not saying he is bad to begin with).

Okay, but he does tend to favor Asajj more than anyone else here.

Thank you, Glentract. I appreciate the insight.

And I am usually the only person saying Asajj has a chance in a fight. Perhaps I'm just impressed with her work since I managed to finish all of the Clone Wars novels, where she does some nice work and beats some opponents that I think could give Vader fits. I'm not gonna go off on a limb and say she pwns him inside of seconds, but I think she's better prepared and trained to fight OT Vader, than Luke was. And Luke, despite being weaker and less trained, was able to get a few hits in on Vader (Though when Vader was hacking and slashing like mad, Luke failed to take advantage of it, which leads me to believe that he is a truly poor fighter still in ESB.)

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Thank you, Glentract. I appreciate the insight.

And I am usually the only person saying Asajj has a chance in a fight. Perhaps I'm just impressed with her work since I managed to finish all of the Clone Wars novels, where she does some nice work and beats some opponents that I think could give Vader fits. I'm not gonna go off on a limb and say she pwns him inside of seconds, but I think she's better prepared and trained to fight OT Vader, than Luke was. And Luke, despite being weaker and less trained, was able to get a few hits in on Vader (Though when Vader was hacking and slashing like mad, Luke failed to take advantage of it, which leads me to believe that he is a truly poor fighter still in ESB.)
Maybe Asajj could beat him, but I doubt it. And about Vader, like I said before, we've never seen him actually fight for real so he very well could be able to beat Asajj.

All we know is from boks that don't mention how fast he is..Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Thank you, Glentract. I appreciate the insight.

And I am usually the only person saying Asajj has a chance in a fight. Perhaps I'm just impressed with her work since I managed to finish all of the Clone Wars novels, where she does some nice work and beats some opponents that I think could give Vader fits. I'm not gonna go off on a limb and say she pwns him inside of seconds, but I think she's better prepared and trained to fight OT Vader, than Luke was. And Luke, despite being weaker and less trained, was able to get a few hits in on Vader (Though when Vader was hacking and slashing like mad, Luke failed to take advantage of it, which leads me to believe that he is a truly poor fighter still in ESB.)
Uber qoute

Originally posted by darthsith19
Maybe Asajj could beat him, but I doubt it. And about Vader, like I said before, we've never seen him actually fight for real so he very well could be able to beat Asajj.



See him fight for real?

Oh my god...

Originally posted by Sorgo
See him fight for real?

Oh my god...

Does anyone understand that Vader didn't fake the first fight with Luke in ESB? Or was cutting off his Kids hand all part of his plan to save him? Vader was holding back on ROTJ, not ESB!

Originally posted by Sorgo
Does anyone understand that Vader didn't fake the first fight with Luke in ESB? Or was cutting off his Kids hand all part of his plan to save him? Vader was holding back on ROTJ, not ESB!
Um, Sorgo, Vader didn't want to kill his son. He was obviously holding back. If he wasn't holding back why didn't he kill Luke when he had his saber to his throat? He cut off his ahnd to end the duel. What else was he going to do? He had no choice, unless he wished for the fight to go on forever. he needed to end the duel so he could talk to Luke and try to tuen him to the Dark Side.

I think DS is right here Sorgo.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Um, Sorgo, Vader didn't want to kill his son. He was obviously holding back. If he wasn't holding back why didn't he kill Luke when he had his saber to his throat? He cut off his ahnd to end the duel. What else was he going to do? He had no choice, unless he wished for the fight to go on forever. he needed to end the duel so he could talk to Luke and try to tuen him to the Dark Side.

You're missing the point, DS.


Darth Vader wasn't holding back. He wanted Luke as a tool to go to the Dark side. He would have killed him if he didn't turn, being why Luke jumped into a damn shaft. Vader would have just outdueled him and put a Lightsaber to his throat. Instead, he cut off his hand. Vader didn't care and he wasn't holding back.

Wait, so he went on all that time faking it with Luke in ESB? And he cut off his hand so that he could be a more useful Apprentice? Luke was contending with Vader and Vader tried to stop it using his full Dueling skills and in the end, he prevailed, cutting his Kids hand off.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I think DS is right here Sorgo.
Thank you.

Well he wasn't trying to kill Luke. That means he was holding back.

It's pretty clear Vader only said he'd kill Luke if he didn't turn to please the Emperor. Says so in Shadows of the Emperor, ieven without reading it, though, it's really clear. Not sure if it's mentioned in the AC.

Okay, but he wasn't aiming to kill. You can't try your hardest on somebody with a lightsaber unless your trying to kill.

He wasn't going all-out on Luke as he would be if he were dueling Asajj. Happy now?

Well he wasn't trying to kill Luke. That means he was holding back.

HAHAHAHAHA! You are PAINFULLY wrong. If he was just trying to disable him and was having troubles, he would put his all into disabling him.

I guess if I put my all out into a Fist Fight, I am trying to kill someone. (According to you.)

It's pretty clear Vader only said he'd kill Luke if he didn't turn to please the Emperor. Says so in Shadows of the Emperor, ieven without reading it, though, it's really clear. Not sure if it's mentioned in the AC.

Ah... More Books? Disregarded.

Yeah! He'd kill Luke if he didn't turn. What does this have to do with Vader putting his all out on the table again? If Vader is trying his hardest to disable Luke, then he is TRYING. Vader was having troubles, being why he grunted a few times during their fight AND because he spent like eight to ten minutes trying to disable him.

I am guessing when Luke slashed Vader on the shoulder, Vader just let it happen? Or when Luke went to look at the debri falling, Vader cut his hand off instead of holding it to his throat? Vader wasn't holding back.

Okay, but he wasn't aiming to kill. You can't try your hardest on somebody with a lightsaber unless your trying to kill.

Wrong. Read my reply to the FIRST time you said that.

He wasn't going all-out on Luke as he would be if he were dueling Asajj. Happy now?

Why not? Why wouldn't he turn Asajj? Hell, what makes you think he wasn't going all out on Luke? He was trying to disable him and he was having troubles.

Notice your alone here.

Did I say he was putting everything into disabling him?

Fist fights and lightsaber duels are very, very different.

This is an EU section. Get used to EU refrences.

Not trying to kill. Tell me Sorgo, when lightsaber dueling someone is it easier when your trying to kill your opponent or when your not trying to kill your oponent.

Did I say that?

Cause he HATES Asajj.

I'm not going to go over that again. Your wrong. Admit it for once, Sorgo. Your not always right.

Notice your alone here.

Right back at you.



Did I say he was putting everything into disabling him?

So you think that Vader was trying to kill Luke? Or that Vader was "holding back", which included the fake grunting he put on for his son and when he let his kid slash him with a Lightsaber?


Fist fights and lightsaber duels are very, very different.

The way I placed it in my Analogy? No.



This is an EU section. Get used to EU refrences.

Wrong. This is Star Wars Versus. It isn't really EU. And most Books are CRAP and aren't Canon. Especially when Authors have been known to favor a Character. LUCAS SAID IT HIMSELF! Not to mention Books aren't the only EU around.



Not trying to kill. Tell me Sorgo, when lightsaber dueling someone is it easier when your trying to kill your opponent or when your not trying to kill your oponent.

That depends on you, Not on a Laser sword.

Tell me DS19, In order for you to go all out on your opponent, does this mean you MUST kill him? Because that's the shit you tried handing to me earlier.



Did I say that?

No, but you're saying Vader was holding back when it's BULLSHIT.



Cause he HATES Asajj.

She is quite powerful, and If she was there, I don't think he'd put her to waste.

Or maybe she would put him to waste.



I'm not going to go over that again. Your wrong. Admit it for once, Sorgo. Your not always right.

Whoa.... Now f*ck that bullshit. I'm wrong? He was going all out. He wanted to disable Luke and he was having Troubles. He was grunting and his Shoulder was slashed. There is clear evidence he wasn't holding back on anything.

How about you learn this factor: YOU'RE Not always right.

Darthsith, you need to accept your wrong, i hate how you and Glentract don't own up to being wrong, when Sorgo and I do on many occasions.

Originally posted by calvin44
Darthsith, you need to accept your wrong, i hate how you and Glentract don't own up to being wrong, when Sorgo and I do on many occasions.

The difference is that you usually are infact wrong, when there has been no evidence showing that either Darthsith or I is wrong in this instance. I don't care if you think you are high and mighty because you have admitted to being wrong. It's a double-edged sword, perhaps you just have more occasions in which you are wrong to begin with.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Notice your alone here.

Right back at you.



Did I say he was putting everything into disabling him?

So you think that Vader was trying to kill Luke? Or that Vader was "holding back", which included the fake grunting he put on for his son and when he let his kid slash him with a Lightsaber?


Fist fights and lightsaber duels are very, very different.

The way I placed it in my Analogy? No.



This is an EU section. Get used to EU refrences.

Wrong. This is Star Wars Versus. It isn't really EU. And most Books are CRAP and aren't Canon. Especially when Authors have been known to favor a Character. LUCAS SAID IT HIMSELF! Not to mention Books aren't the only EU around.



Not trying to kill. Tell me Sorgo, when lightsaber dueling someone is it easier when your trying to kill your opponent or when your not trying to kill your oponent.

That depends on you, Not on a Laser sword.

Tell me DS19, In order for you to go all out on your opponent, does this mean you MUST kill him? Because that's the shit you tried handing to me earlier.



Did I say that?

No, but you're saying Vader was holding back when it's BULLSHIT.



Cause he HATES Asajj.

She is quite powerful, and If she was there, I don't think he'd put her to waste.

Or maybe she would put him to waste.



I'm not going to go over that again. Your wrong. Admit it for once, Sorgo. Your not always right.

Whoa.... Now f*ck that bullshit. I'm wrong? He was going all out. He wanted to disable Luke and he was having Troubles. He was grunting and his Shoulder was slashed. There is clear evidence he wasn't holding back on anything.

How about you learn this factor: YOU'RE Not always right.

These Are the answers.
You just try to find ways around admiting your wrong.

Nope, Glentract's on my side.

He wasn't trying to kill Luke during the duel (can we agree on that)? It hurt when his shoulder got cut (hopefully we can agree on that) so he grunts.

Yes. When your fist fighting to kill your opponent you'd likely, unless your very, very strong, have to hit them when their already down to kill them. With a it's far harder to fight someone, especially if that someone's trying to kill you, if your not aiming to kill them.

Fine, no EU. Wait, that means Vader wins by default.

Oh I know. Once you supply me with sufficient proof that proves me wrong I'll admit. But the fact is, there is none. It was you guys here who reminded me it's much harder to figfht with a lightsaber when not going for the kill. This is also said in The Cestus Deception.


Sorgo, lol, he's never wrong because when he is he reverts to insults and drives his opponents away and then says he won. And, just so your aware, we're not even debating Vader vs. Asajj right now.

You know, calvin44, I used to like you. But your being stubborn now. I've admited I'm wrong many times. It's like Glentract said.

I have nothing against you, i'm just sick of all these debates-turned-bashing, and I'm just trying to resolve some of it.

Glentract: I usually just give up on trying to prove your wrong cause it's impossible cause you just try top find ways around it. That is why you say "You are usually infact wrong",NO, it's just causeiI have better things to do then try to debate someone who will not admit they are wrong.

Prove me wrong then! Show that I am wrong. Do you expect me to take the word of someone who doesn't know that 1/4 of 20 is 5 as intelligent or that I would care whether or not we argue online. To prove me wrong, you are going to have to provide real, sound proof, which I have not seen you do. Right or wrong is in the eyes of the beholder. For you to accomplish anything worth sharing, you need to convince both that I am wrong, not just yourself.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Prove me wrong then! Show that I am wrong. Do you expect me to take the word of someone who doesn't know that 1/4 of 20 is 5 as intelligent or that I would care whether or not we argue online. To prove me wrong, you are going to have to provide real, sound proof, which I have not seen you do. Right or wrong is in the eyes of the beholder. For you to accomplish anything worth sharing, you need to convince both that I am wrong, not just yourself.
I was saying that there are other people that aren't on that list, that should be on there, and that the list is flawed.

Originally posted by calvin44
I was saying that there are other people that aren't on that list, that should be on there, and that the list is flawed.

No, you said, "It's the certain Sith he killed that make him stronger than 75% of the people on that list. What other Jedi turned away from the force, and were stronger for it?"

Then I asked what makes you think he is in the top five and you said that he is not, but continued to proclaim that he is in the top 25% out of 20.

Do you honestly need a Buddy to contend with me?

Wait... It looks like I have a buddy as well. Stop drifting off. Whether Glentract is on your side or not is irrelevant to me.


Vader hurled debris at Luke, making him bloody and bruised and caused him to fall out of a Window and then he cuts his hand off and this all part of making him an Apprentice? Dude, Vader was trying his hardest to kill him. If Luke survives, He becomes an Apprentice. The Sith believe that the weak DO NOT deserve to walk among the Sith. If Luke could not withstand or overpower Vader, he did not deserve to be Sith.

Who said anything about killing your opponent while fistfighting? I said "Knocking out".


Oh I know. Once you supply me with sufficient proof that proves me wrong I'll admit. But the fact is, there is none. It was you guys here who reminded me it's much harder to figfht with a lightsaber when not going for the kill. This is also said in The Cestus Deception.

Another Book reference? I am not surprised.

And no it isn't. Not for certain Fighters. Everyone Fights differently.

It goes both ways, DS19.

Where is your proof that I'm wrong, Hmm?

Fine, no EU. Wait, that means Vader wins by default.

Is it not going through properly? My suggestion is that you try your hardest to understand my last post. I dislike having to repeat myself.


Sorgo, lol, he's never wrong because when he is he reverts to insults and drives his opponents away and then says he won. And, just so your aware, we're not even debating Vader vs. Asajj right now.

^ That one made me want to take my Keyboard and just f*cking smash it against my Monitor.

Do NOT insult my Intelligence with that Bullshit you posted.


I'm sick and tired of that crap from you.

Sorgo, you have to prove that you are right first before anyone else needs to prove that you are wrong.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorgo, you have to prove that you are right first before anyone else needs to prove that you are wrong.


^ Pure Arrogance!

We both need to prove we are right or all we have is Theories.


Trying to put me in the Spotlight to buy yourself some time isn't gonna quite work out, 'kay?

By myself time? It's a message board, I can take as long as I want.

Not stepping back into this debate. I really don't care for darthsith/Glentract tagteams since I don't have the patience to fight both at the same time. And I can't say I agree with Calvin or Sorgo's methods either.

Vader makes two quick moves, hooking Luke's sword out of his hand and
sending it flying. Another lightning move at Luke's feet forces the
youth to jump back to protect himself from Vader's Sword.

Suddenly, Vader attacks so forcefully that Luke loses his balance and
falls back into the opening.

The
energy Luke has used to stop Vader has brought him to the point of
collapse.

A large pipe detaches and comes flying at Luke. He deflects it.
Sparking wires pull out of the wall and begin to whip at the youth.
Small tools and equipment come flying at him. Bombardment from all
sides, Luke does his best to deflect everything, but soon he is
bloodied and bruised.

Luke backs off along the narrow end of the gantry as Vader comes at
him, slashing at the young Jedi with his sword.

At that instant,
Vader's sword comes down across Luke's right forearm, cutting off his
hand and sending his sword flying.


Vader: All to easy. Perhaps you are not as strong as the Emperor thought.


Vader says this after trying to fill the Carbonite Chamber with the Carbonite WITH Luke in it.



Vader was NOT going easy on Luke. He would have killed Luke if Luke wasn't so good. The Sith believe that if you are not Strong enough, than you deserve death.

Vader was testing Luke with all of his power. If Luke could not overwhelm Vader or did not show more power than Vader, than in the eyes of a Sith, the Weak deserve DEATH and DEATH only.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
By myself time? It's a message board, I can take as long as I want.


Don't get all Cocky with me. It's plain stupid.

The bottom line is you're telling me to provide proof when you can't show me shit all. It's sort of Hypocritical.

I am DONE with this shit. We both have theories and we have expressed them.

This arguement is over.... For now...

Originally posted by Sorgo
Don't get all Cocky with me. It's plain stupid.

The bottom line is you're telling me to provide proof when you can't show me shit all. It's sort of Hypocritical.

I am DONE with this shit. We both have theories and we have expressed them.

This arguement is over.... For now...


I have to admit, Glentract, you're wild card is "Proof?" every time... and it's becoming a bit old. Instead of pushing the opposition for proof, you need to disprove what they already have up.

If they make assertions and don't back them up, just point it out.

What...? Up to this point, I have done little more in this thread then state my opionion, provide a short post or two to back it up, and defend Janus when Darthsith started calling him a fanboy. Why am I being associated as on a tagteam with Darthsith.

Vader says this after trying to fill the Carbonite Chamber with the Carbonite WITH Luke in it.

Do you know why he would do this? Perhaps to capture Luke and present him to the Emperor?

Vader was NOT going easy on Luke. He would have killed Luke if Luke wasn't so good. The Sith believe that if you are not Strong enough, than you deserve death.

Anakin was weak in ep1, but Palpatine still befriended him. Palaptine knew Anakin could become powerful, just as Vader knew Luke could become powerful. I don't see them killing off every single person who wants to become one of them. Look at how easily Dooku pwned Asajj, but he still took her as an apprentice even though to him she was weak.

Also, maybe you should read Shadows of the Empire. One of the major points in the book is Vader getting pissed at Xizor for trying to kill Luke and goes so far as to kill the guy who provides the resources for the second Death Star in revenge. This is after ESB, so Vader obviously didn't want Luke dead.

I seem to remember him flat out asking him to join him actually. If he felt Luke was so weak, why would he do that?

Vader was testing Luke with all of his power. If Luke could not overwhelm Vader or did not show more power than Vader, than in the eyes of a Sith, the Weak deserve DEATH and DEATH only.

That's certainly a theory, but a wrong one as I have shown above.

What...? Up to this point, I have done little more in this thread then state my opionion, provide a short post or two to back it up, and defend Janus when Darthsith started calling him a fanboy. Why am I being associated as on a tagteam with Darthsith.
To be Honest...

You haven't done more than state your Opinion. More Arrogance from you.


Do you know why he would do this? Perhaps to capture Luke and present him to the Emperor?

Your Theory is as good as mine.


Anakin was weak in ep1, but Palpatine still befriended him. Palaptine knew Anakin could become powerful, just as Vader knew Luke could become powerful. I don't see them killing off every single person who wants to become one of them. Look at how easily Dooku pwned Asajj, but he still took her as an apprentice even though to him she was weak.

What the hell? Luke wasn't weak. The reason Vader probably spared him is the fact that Luke had overpowered him during several points during the battle, including the Shoulder slash. Luke survived Vader's countless attempts to destroy him.

Also, maybe you should read Shadows of the Empire. One of the major points in the book is Vader getting pissed at Xizor for trying to kill Luke and goes so far as to kill the guy who provides the resources for the second Death Star in revenge. This is after ESB, so Vader obviously didn't want Luke dead.

Keyword: AFTER

This was after ESB. He was feeling remorse for Luke in ROTJ and probably started feeling this shortly after ESB, when he nearly killed his Son.

I seem to remember him flat out asking him to join him actually. If he felt Luke was so weak, why would he do that?

That's certainly a theory, but a wrong one as I have shown above.

Glentract, Stop. Now.

You have proven no one wrong, so don't let it get to your head for too long now.

Originally posted by Sorgo
To be Honest...

You haven't done more than state your Opinion. More Arrogance from you.

I've backed up my points as good or better then you so any arrogance you proclaim on me you also proclaim on yourself.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Your Theory is as good as mine.

No, mine is better because my has proof backing it up.

Originally posted by Sorgo
What the hell? Luke wasn't weak. The reason Vader probably spared him is the fact that Luke had overpowered him during several points during the battle, including the Shoulder slash. Luke survived Vader's countless attempts to destroy him.

Wait, so now you are saying that Vader spared him, but just a little while earlier you said he was trying to kill him. That really makes no sense, as we know that he wanted to capture Luke even before they started fighting. The whole Bespin thing was a trap and they tested carbon freezing on Han before the fight to give Vader an easy method for transporting Luke that wouldn't kill him.

Vader had countless opportunities to kill Luke that he did not take. The other times when it appeared that Vader was trying to kill him more likely then not he was trying to subdue Luke so he could present him to the Emperor.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Keyword: AFTER

This was after ESB. He was feeling remorse for Luke in ROTJ and probably started feeling this shortly after ESB, when he nearly killed his Son.

We know that Vader wanted to capture Luke before the fight as he froze Han in carbonite to make sure it wouldn't kill a human. Then we know he didn't want Luke dead after and went so fas as to kill one of the most important people in the Empire just because that guy(Xizor) tried to kill Luke.

So, you are telling me that Vader wanted to kill Luke during that fight even though we know that the rest of the time he wanted him alive. That really makes no sense.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Glentract, Stop. Now.

You have proven no one wrong, so don't let it get to your head for too long now.

You've just shown that you are very narrow-minded on this. You really expect me to believe that Vader was trying to kill Luke during the fight even though I have shown that both before and after he wanted him alive? It makes no sense, surely you can see that.

I've backed up my points as good or better then you so any arrogance you proclaim on me you also proclaim on yourself.



No, mine is better because my has proof backing it up.

PROOF? LMAO! I hardly call a Book and a few theories proof.

Please. Drop your Ego before you enter the thread.

How am I arrogant? You're trying to tell me your Opinion is complete fact and mine is relative Shit compared to yours.

You're the Arrogant one, not me. Get off your High Horse.



Wait, so now you are saying that Vader spared him, but just a little while earlier you said he was trying to kill him. That really makes no sense, as we know that he wanted to capture Luke even before they started fighting. The whole Bespin thing was a trap and they tested carbon freezing on Han before the fight to give Vader an easy method for transporting Luke that wouldn't kill him.

You haven't been reading my replies properly, now have you?

In the end, Vader spared Luke because he survived Vaders previous attacks on him AND he also got a hit on Vader too. And survived the Carbonite Freezing, which Vader found impressive.

The whole meeting was to test Lukes skill. Not to just throw him in a Chamber or else Vader would have done that in the first place since he was going easy on him... Right? Or wait! Maybe Vader WAS NOT going easy on him. Maybe Vader was having a hell of a time with Luke and did put extreme pressure on him. If Luke died, during that point, Vader would not have cared. He was testing him. That is what the Sith do. And if you are too weak not to survive or you are not stronger, THAN TOO BAD... YOU DIE!

Vader had countless opportunities to kill Luke that he did not take. The other times when it appeared that Vader was trying to kill him more likely then not he was trying to subdue Luke so he could present him to the Emperor.

What the hell? He had no such opportunities. Luke was a challenge for Vader. It says continously in the Script that Luke was pushing Vader back. It mentioned NOTHING about Vader holding himself back against Luke.



We know that Vader wanted to capture Luke before the fight as he froze Han in carbonite to make sure it wouldn't kill a human. Then we know he didn't want Luke dead after and went so fas as to kill one of the most important people in the Empire just because that guy(Xizor) tried to kill Luke.

Another Book....

This was after ESB. And Luke was very powerful. This was proven when Luke overpowered Vader during their ESB Fight several times.



You've just shown that you are very narrow-minded on this. You really expect me to believe that Vader was trying to kill Luke during the fight even though I have shown that both before and after he wanted him alive? It makes no sense, surely you can see that.

What i'm telling you is that Vader was trying his hardest against Luke. Putting extreme effort and it shows in the way he fights during the Movie. Vader is not going to go easy on Luke, especially when testing him for the Sith. The Sith just don't go easy on people that they Test, even with Family. It makes no sense.... Surely, you can see that.

Originally posted by Sorgo
PROOF? LMAO! I hardly call a Book and a few theories proof.

Please. Drop your Ego before you enter the thread.

How am I arrogant? You're trying to tell me your Opinion is complete fact and mine is relative Shit compared to yours.

You're the Arrogant one, not me. Get off your High Horse.

Sorgo, I know what you think is canon, but that doesn't fly here in an EU forum. That book is canon whether you like it or not. If you don't, that's to bad. It's only a sign of your failing though, not mine.

Come on, lets see you proof.

Originally posted by Sorgo
You haven't been reading my replies properly, now have you?

In the end, Vader spared Luke because he survived Vaders previous attacks on him AND he also got a hit on Vader too. And survived the Carbonite Freezing, which Vader found impressive.

Why would Vader have tested the carbon freezing process on Han before the fight if he was planning to kill him?

Originally posted by Sorgo
The whole meeting was to test Lukes skill. Not to just throw him in a Chamber or else Vader would have done that in the first place since he was going easy on him... Right? Or wait! Maybe Vader WAS NOT going easy on him. Maybe Vader was having a hell of a time with Luke and did put extreme pressure on him. If Luke died, during that point, Vader would not have cared. He was testing him. That is what the Sith do. And if you are too weak not to survive or you are not stronger, THAN TOO BAD... YOU DIE!

Now it is my turn to laugh at you. Where is your proof for this? Wait, you have nothing to support it other then your second rate assumptions. Not better then a licensed book.

Originally posted by Sorgo
What the hell? He had no such opportunities. Luke was a challenge for Vader. It says continously in the Script that Luke was pushing Vader back. It mentioned NOTHING about Vader holding himself back against Luke.

When Luke is on his butt in on the walkway Vader could have put his blade two more inches forward and Luke would be dead. Nothing other then the fact that he never wanted to kill Luke was stopping him.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Another Book....

This was after ESB. And Luke was very powerful. This was proven when Luke overpowered Vader during their ESB Fight several times.

Books are canon. I don't know why you are trying to substitute my argument, which comes from a canonical book since it doesn't contradict the movies, with your crappy, unfounded assumptions. Really, take a look at yourself if you want to see an arrogant person.

Originally posted by Sorgo
What i'm telling you is that Vader was trying his hardest against Luke. Putting extreme effort and it shows in the way he fights during the Movie. Vader is not going to go easy on Luke, especially when testing him for the Sith. The Sith just don't go easy on people that they Test, even with Family. It makes no sense.... Surely, you can see that.

Surely you can see that you have no proof for your claims, but I have provided references from books. Did you not see how fast Vader pwned Luke after Luke got that minor tap on Vader's shoulder? It took less then 20 seconds before Luke had pissed in his pants and was holding an arm stump. To say that the 2 or 3 minutes before that Vader was fighting his hardest and that only after he wanted Luke to live makes no sense and contradicts the evidence that I have shown, meaning your assumptions are wrong.


Vader had to stand up to all of Sidious' Dark Sider Elite and stay the top student. This seems easy at first, but there was an army of them. Don't believe me? Take a look at them:
Gwellib Ap-Llewff, Dark Side Adept of the Imperial Citadel
Argor, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
Boc Aseca, Dark Jedi
Picaroon C. Boodle, Dark Jedi
Brakiss, Apprentice Inquisitor
Adalric Cessius Brandl, High Inquisitor
Jaalib Brandl, Apprentice Inquisitor
Shira Ellan Colla Brie, Emperor's Hand
Joruus C'baoth, Guardian of Wayland
The Cloaked Figure, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
The Constable of Homunculi, Clone Keeper
Cronal, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side/Emperor's Hand
Sa Cuis, Emperor's Hand
Ameesa Darys, Inquisitor
Nial Declann, Grand Admiral
Drayneen, Inquisitor
Jeng Droga, Emperor's Hand
Durrei, Dark Jedi
Baddon Fass, Dark Side Elite
Flint, Stormtrooper
Vill Goir, Dark Side Elite
Gorc, Dark Jedi
Gornash, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
Kvag Gthull, Dark Side Elite
Halmere, High Inquisitor
Hethrir, Imperial Procurator of Justice
Roganda Ismaren, Emperor's Hand
Mara Jade, Emperor's Hand
Shela Jalahafi, Dark Side Adept
Teles Jalahafi, Dark Side Adept
Carnor Jax, Imperial Sovereign Protector
Jedgar, High Prophet of the Dark Side
Jerec, Inquisitor/Emperor's Hand
Kadann, Supreme Prophet of the Dark Side
Zasm Katth, Dark Side Elite
Danaan Kerr, Dark Jedi
Vess Kogo, Emperor's Hand
Arden Lyn, Emperor's Hand
Malorum, Inquisitor
Maw, Dark Jedi
Merilli, Lesser Prophetess of the Dark Side
Krdys Mordi, Dark Side Elite
Morthul, Dark Jedi
Nefta, Dark Side Adept of the Byss Clone Vats
Xecr Nist, Dark Side Elite
Quarmall, Dark Jedi
Sarcev Quest, Emperor's Hand
Loam Redge, Inquisitor
Rillao, Dark Jedi
Sa-Di, Dark Side Adept of the Byss Clone Vats
Sancor, Inquisitor
Sariss, Lesser Prophetess of the Dark Side
Sedriss, Dark Side Elite
Shynne, Inquisitor
Mox Slosin, High Inquisitor
Kam Solusar, Dark Side Elite
Maarek Stele, Emperor's Reach/Emperor's Hand
Tedryn-Sha, Dark Side Elite
Savuud Thimram, Dark Side Adept of the Imperial Citadel
T'iaz, Dark Jedi
Laddinare Torbin, Grand Inquisitor
Tremayne, High Inquisitor
Vost Tyne, Admiral
Valytar, Inquisitor
Vialco, Apprentice Inquisitor
Yun, Dark Jedi

Some of them, like Joruus, are very powerful and capable of defeating Luke even just a single year before DE. Kam became the adminstrator of Luke's Jedi Academy and Jerec is capable of a ton. Vader was more powerful then all of them.

Sorgo, I know what you think is canon, but that doesn't fly here in an EU forum. That book is canon whether you like it or not. If you don't, that's to bad. It's only a sign of your failing though, not mine.

Come on, lets see you proof.

I refuse to repeat myself again.

What we are arguing about is not EU.... If you haven't gotten that part yet and Ush himself has dismissed the NJO and some Books as "Unexistant". And Lucas has said the Authors "Have a seperate world of Star Wars from his world."

You trying to dismiss your crappy EU Bullshit by me... Doesn't cut, Glentract.

And No: The Book is not Canon and don't you DARE try to write that in stone. This is getting f*cking proposterous now.




Why would Vader have tested the carbon freezing process on Han before the fight if he was planning to kill him?

He obviously wanted the Chamber as an alternative plan. It failed miserabely because Vader couldn't get his kid in there. Or was Vader faking not getting Luke in the Freezing Chamber? That's the kind of shit you're going to try to hand me next.



Now it is my turn to laugh at you. Where is your proof for this? Wait, you have nothing to support it other then your second rate assumptions. Not better then a licensed book.

You don't have proof either, Glentract. Please... Stop making a fool out of yourself.

The Episode III Game was Licensed as well. Was Dooku stabbed? Did Mace and Anakin Duel? Please. Spare me the bullshit.



When Luke is on his butt in on the walkway Vader could have put his blade two more inches forward and Luke would be dead. Nothing other then the fact that he never wanted to kill Luke was stopping him.

Two inches forward? Are you crazy? Luke was already scrambling away and Vader didn't have the chance. Vader couldn't move his arm anymore forward and it wouldn't reach him anyways.

Two more steps and Sidious would have killed Mace too.... Unfortunately, Mace was going back while Sidious tried to go forward. This is similar.



Books are canon. I don't know why you are trying to substitute my argument, which comes from a canonical book since it doesn't contradict the movies, with your crappy, unfounded assumptions. Really, take a look at yourself if you want to see an arrogant person.

Lucas has specifically STATED that the Books are a COMPLETELY SEPERATE world from his World. And the Authors have been known to favor characters. THAT IS NOT CANON!





Surely you can see that you have no proof for your claims, but I have provided references from books. Did you not see how fast Vader pwned Luke after Luke got that minor tap on Vader's shoulder? It took less then 20 seconds before Luke had pissed in his pants and was holding an arm stump. To say that the 2 or 3 minutes before that Vader was fighting his hardest and that only after he wanted Luke to live makes no sense and contradicts the evidence that I have shown, meaning your assumptions are wrong.

Luke glances at the instrument complex floating away. At that instant,
Vader's sword comes down across Luke's right forearm, cutting off his
hand

DIRECTLY from the Script. The reason Vader got the upper hand was because he was on the Narrow end of the Platform and because he looked away. Didn't see that, did you?

Books, Books, Books, Books and Books. THAT IS ALL I HEAR FROM YOU! You have no direct proof from the Movies or the script that implies Vader faked it. HELLLLLLL, you don't have a Novelisation saying he faked it. There isn't anything obvious during their fight that says it, damnit!

Vader was having troubles! It says it in the Script! And you have the f*cking nerve to bust in here trying to tell me Books are proof.... BOOKS ARE CANON? You're ridiculous and you'll snuff out any LIE to prove that you AND only you are Correct and i'm F*CKING SICK AND TIRED OF IT!

SHOW ME ANYTHING OTHER THAN A BOOK! COME ON, MAN! I'll be waiting...

Right, anyway, i think that Asajj will win, barely

Sorgo, this is an EU forum. That means EU counts unless it contradicts the movies. Shadows of the Empires does not contradict the movies, so it is canon. If you can't accept that, we have nothing more to talk about.

But, you also completely failed to address Vader setting up the carborn freezing chamber before the fight. All you gave for it are your ridiculos assumptions that don't cut it. You are assuming that he gave up on that plan, but you have nothing to back it as even afterward he didn't try to kill Luke.

And you ignored the fact that Vader was better then Joruus, who took Luke even years after ROTJ. You missed that he was better then Kam, who, without any additional training from Luke trained Corran and Mara in lightsaber fighting, both of whom could give Asajj a very hard time, if not defeat her completely..

Sorgo books are cannon, now stop getting so upset about it.. How old are you? seriously man calm down.

and Glentract proved enough.. Vader is constantly staying away from Luke not killing him. He tried to get luke in the Carbon Freezing chamber that was his entire plan had been since the start. Then luke jumps out of that. A little time later he hits Vader in the shoulder and 20 seconds later Luke misses an arm, and Vader just tries to convince Luke to join him, instead of killing him.

Sorgo, this is an EU forum. That means EU counts unless it contradicts the movies. Shadows of the Empires does not contradict the movies, so it is canon. If you can't accept that, we have nothing more to talk about.

But, you also completely failed to address Vader setting up the carborn freezing chamber before the fight. All you gave for it are your ridiculos assumptions that don't cut it. You are assuming that he gave up on that plan, but you have nothing to back it as even afterward he didn't try to kill Luke.

And you ignored the fact that Vader was better then Joruus, who took Luke even years after ROTJ. You missed that he was better then Kam, who, without any additional training from Luke trained Corran and Mara in lightsaber fighting, both of whom could give Asajj a very hard time, if not defeat her completely..


Yeah. You win. I was wrong.

I kind of figured Vader would have been trying to kill him by the way he was treating him (Throwing Various objects, cutting his hand off) and for the fact that he is a Sith and Sith don't usually bear Mercy.

I don't know.... It doesn't seem all too right.

All the things I have mentioned in my arguements make sense, but the fact that he set up the Carbon Chamber for Luke and put his hand out for Luke to join him gives away (In a small way) that Vader didn't want to kill his son.

Originally posted by Council#13
Right, anyway, i think that Asajj will win, barely



Oh my lord...


Please provide evidence or proof determining which would win. Don't just come in here and say "Asajj wins! LOL!".

Finally. Now lets get back on the topic of Vader vs. Asajj.

Vader wins hands down. He has the force, Ventress does not.

Originally posted by Vegemiteman
Vader wins hands down. He has the force, Ventress does not.

Databank Sez:

As a result, she had the skills of the Jedi combined with a raw, unfocused talent in the Force.

Anakin/Vader wasn't an ordinary Jedi. He also knew how to focus his Force talent. She may be able to tap into but wouldn't be able to control it.

Vader still wins

Originally posted by Vegemiteman
Anakin/Vader wasn't an ordinary Jedi. He also knew how to focus his Force talent. She may be able to tap into but wouldn't be able to control it.

Vader still wins

Watch the CW cartoons and rethink that statement. Dooku and Sidious considered Asajj Ventress to be a worthy opponent for Anakin as he was between AotC and RotS. She took on Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan and Anakin needed to use the Dark Side to be able to defeat her. So she isn't really "weak" at all...although I think Vader would still be able to defeat her with his experience, skill and knowledge.

Vader outclasses her in most if not all regards....and wasn't Ventress supposed to be sacrificial to Anakin's power?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vader outclasses her in most if not all regards....and wasn't Ventress supposed to be sacrificial to Anakin's power?


Vader had significant trouble outclassing her with his Limbs.


Heh... You think he could do better without them?

Originally posted by Sorgo
Oh my lord...


Please provide evidence or proof determining which would win. Don't just come in here and say "Asajj wins! LOL!".


I thought i said she was faster, but Vader was stronger. Hmmm, that happens a lot

Much closer to AOTC, and Dooku considered her a worthy opponent for Anakin. Sidious didn't give a damn about her. He was probably just testing Anakin's power, just as he does in ROTS with Dooku.

It doesn't matter. Grievous has less body than Vader and no Force and he could still kick her ass.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Much closer to AOTC, and Dooku considered her a worthy opponent for Anakin. Sidious didn't give a damn about her. He was probably just testing Anakin's power, just as he does in ROTS with Dooku.

It doesn't matter. Grievous has less body than Vader and no Force and he could still kick her ass.

Grievous also has three more Lightsabers and at least ten times more flexibility.

Vader's managed to improve significantly and he destroys Ventress when he fights her in Republic 71.

Does having more lightsabers mean more power? No, if that were true all Jedi would carry and wield two lightsabers at once. And Vader does have the Force, something Grievous doesn't have.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Does having more lightsabers mean more power? No, if that were true all Jedi would carry and wield two lightsabers at once. And Vader does have the Force, something Grievous doesn't have.


Grievous had FOUR, not two.


Grievous doesn't have the Force? He Force pushed twice on the CW Cartoon.


By the way....

Does having the Force mean more power? No, if that were true Grievous wouldn't have slaughtered so many Jedi.

Did I say any different? No, I merely stated that if using more lightsabers meant more strength then all lightsaber wielders would use two lightsabers, two because most species only have two arms.

When? And no, he doesn't have the Force. This is common knowledge. Havn't you ever heard this before?

No, but having the Force does up ones chances of success. Obi-Wan might not have won had it not been for his Force push. Mundi wouldn't have survived on Hypori had he not had the Force to get one of Grievous's lightsabers.

Did I say any different? No, I merely stated that if using more lightsabers meant more strength then all lightsaber wielders would use two lightsabers, two because most species only have two arms.

Oh okay...

Who said two Lightsabers meant more strength, by the way?


When? And no, he doesn't have the Force. This is common knowledge. Havn't you ever heard this before?

Common Knowledge is a matter of opinion, DS19.

He Force Pushes TWICE in the Clone Wars Cartoons. Watch them! He does it to Palpatine then to another Jedi.

No, but having the Force does up ones chances of success. Obi-Wan might not have won had it not been for his Force push. Mundi wouldn't have survived on Hypori had he not had the Force to get one of Grievous's lightsabers.

Cool. Well having Four Lightsabers when you have wrists that turn 360 Degrees perpetually...

It helps too.

Sorgo, Grievous's 'force pushes' were Shaak Ti trying to get away from him...you don't force push the woman you're trying to behead

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorgo, Grievous's 'force pushes' were Shaak Ti trying to get away from him...you don't force push the woman you're trying to behead

I don't know if it was her or not but I remember he extended his hand a Jedi just flew back.

He DEFINETELY did it with Palpatine. He reached out his hand and sent Palpatine half way down the damn hall.

No, that was actually Shaak Ti force Pulling. She caught him pretty damn fast and seemed pretty prepared.

I think that was Shaak Ti pulling Palp...one doesn't force push what one thinks is a fragile man he's ordered to apture alive

And she struck at Shaak Ti with a lightsaber, she raised her hands and flew abck...if that was Grie, that's counter productive

Well, you indicated that more lightsabers means stronger.

Look anywhere. He can't use the Force.

Yeah, I suppose.

Well, you indicated that more lightsabers means stronger.


Grievous also has three more Lightsabers and at least ten times more flexibility.

Tell me where I indicated ONCE that more Lightsabers means more strength. Is this what I implied? No. Is this what I said? HELL No.

Look anywhere. He can't use the Force.

Wtahc the damn Cartoon! Please... Do not try to deny that he Force pushes twice. There has been threads here about it.

He Force Pushes TWICE.

He doesn't force push. It'd make NO SENSE in the context and in both we see Shaak Ti is responsible

Originally posted by Sorgo

Look anywhere. He can't use the Force.

Wtahc the damn Cartoon! Please... Do not try to deny that he Force pushes twice. There has been threads here about it.

He Force Pushes TWICE.
I watched it. He never used Force push. Listen to those around you. He was a Kaleesh warrior for the majority of his life. I can't believe you don't know this and can't believe your denying it. How much EU do you read? Ever wonder why Grievous never uses the Force? Why Obi-Wan so easily Force pushed him? If you don't believe me, Lightsnake and Council#13 ask someone else you do believe. Faunus, Glentract, Janus, Avis, Nai Foli, anyone.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I watched it. He never used Force push. Listen to those around you. He was a Kaleesh warrior for the majority of his life. I can't believe you don't know this and can't believe your denying it. How much EU do you read? Ever wonder why Grievous never uses the Force? Why Obi-Wan so easily Force pushed him? If you don't believe me, Lightsnake and Council#13 ask someone else you do believe. Faunus, Glentract, Janus, Avis, Nai Foli, anyone.

Calm your silly ass down, you bloody freak!


He Forced Pushed in the Clone Wars Cartoons for christs sake! Go get hyperspace or rent them at a Store and watch it!

I'm f*cking serious! Go watch it!

I've heard that he didn't force push, actually. And reasonably he can't.

And why the HELL do we care? This is about DARTH VADER versus ASAJJ VENTRESS. Stay on topic, people.

WATCH THE DAMN CLONE WARS CARTOONS!

I AM NOT BLIND! HE FORCE PUSHES, GODDAMN IT!

inappropriate language, Sorgo. Please cool down. As Janus said, stay on topic please.

Yeah Sorgo please just calm down, the guy can't use the force. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Council#13
inappropriate language, Sorgo. Please cool down. As Janus said, stay on topic please.

Inappropriate language?

Get off it, buddy.

And he does push in the Cartoons. Why would you try to deny it? I have ask y'all to Watch the CW Cartoons.

He Force pushes.

Warning, Dark Lord, The Rise of Darth Vader spoilers below. Rex, if you see this, can you put that spoiler thing where you have to highlight it to read it on the text? I can't figure out how to do that.






I finished the book today and learned a lot of interesting things about Dark Vader. One of them is that even though he had been in his suit for only 3 weeks and was still learning how to use it, because of the way he had adapted his style, he was able to defeat a Jedi Master in lightsaber combat. We also know that shortly later Sidious had Vader do some things for about a month and Vader was later thinking to himslef about how significant his increase in power was, even though he had already been able to defeat a Jedi Master in lightsaber combat. A day or two after that he goes and fights this Jedi Knight girl, who he beats rather easily, then he fights to Jedi Knights at the same time for a while but eventually decapitates both of them. Seconds after fighting those first three he fights another four Jedi, two Knights, two Padawans(haven't seen much combat outside of killing droids) and defeats(but doesn't kill) them with ease. He then fights that first Jedi Knight girl(she hadn't technically passed the trials, but was days away from doing so and Roan, a guy who had trained two Jedi thought she had effectively passed the trials) again and is toying with her when Roan comes back and tells her to help get the wookies out of the battle(the Jedi went to Kashyyyk to try and find Yoda, Luminara, and Vos) and Roan fights him for a while. Eventually Vader bombards Roan in the same way he hit Luke in ep5 with the debris, but because they are in a battle their are lots of shard objects around. He knocks Roan down a far distance and then tells him about what really happened with the Sith and then presumably Roan dies.

All that within eight weeks or so of becoming Vader. Pretty impressive if you ask me. We also learn that the Jedi Temple had holocrons from the Ruusan time and that Vader had full access to the Temple scrolls and archives.

Because he simply does not have it. What you have seen are two completely different things that might look like it. However there is absolutely nothing to suggest and nothing has ever said that GG has the force. The two casses your thinking of are wrong, the palps one has already been explained in another thread.

The other example of the force push can probably be explained far more logical in another way.

It wouldn't surprise me it GG had repulsors on his hands, but thats a completely unsupported statement.

Sorgo, I HAVE the damn CW...Grievous never force pushes. Both instances are of Shaak Ti using the Force

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorgo, I HAVE the damn CW...Grievous never force pushes. Both instances are of Shaak Ti using the Force

LOL! Grievous puts his hand out towards Palpatine and all of the sudden Palpatine shoots across the room.


Or was that Shaak Ti hiding in the ground?

Now, what happens after Palpatine shoots across the room? What stops his hard throw?

And use logic....Grievous is trying to CAPTURE him

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, what happens after Palpatine shoots across the room? What stops his hard throw?

And use logic....Grievous is trying to CAPTURE him


You call THAT Logic? Grievous extends his hand and Palpatine flies backwards off of his feet?

Right.


Palpatines hard throw? What are you talking about?

What halts Palpatine after he's pushed now?

Halts him? What are you talking about? Elaborate, Lightsnake.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Inappropriate language?

Get off it, buddy.

And he does push in the Cartoons. Why would you try to deny it? I have ask y'all to Watch the CW Cartoons.

He Force pushes.

yes well..... i like your sig

When Grievous apparently force pushes Palpatine, what halts Palpatine being hurled through the air? Once more, why would Grievous FORCE PUSH Palp? He clearly refrains from harming him a short time later

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When Grievous apparently force pushes Palpatine, what halts Palpatine being hurled through the air? Once more, why would Grievous FORCE PUSH Palp? He clearly refrains from harming him a short time later

Don't ask me why, but he extended his hand and Palpatine all of the sudden lift up backwards into the Air.

What happens to put Palpatine down then? I doubt he stays up in the air the entire time? who catches him?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What happens to put Palpatine down then? I doubt he stays up in the air the entire time? who catches him?

What? What in THE F*CK are you talking about? Who would catch him?

Grievous was ordered to capture Palpatine. If he was trying to capture Palpatine, why would he Force Push him into Shaak Ti?

At the Battle of Hypori, things get a little more complicated. i don't know who Force Pushed who when Shaak flew away, but I know it wasnt Grievous. He was trying to slash her brains out.
I hope what i said is on topic to your conversation, because i dont want to seem like a moron

Anyway, it's getting a BIT off topic here

Originally posted by Sorgo
What? What in THE F*CK are you talking about? Who would catch him?

I have no idea what he's trying to say either. . .

However, Grievous doesn't use the Force. On Hypori, Shaak Ti uses the Force to evade Grievous's lightsaber stroke, while on Coruscant, she Force pulls the Chancellor away from the general's grip.

Getting back on topic, then.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I have no idea what he's trying to say either. . .

However, Grievous doesn't use the Force. On Hypori, Shaak Ti uses the Force to evade Grievous's lightsaber stroke, while on Coruscant, she Force pulls the Chancellor away from the general's grip.

Getting back on topic, then.

I'm going to have to watch that again to make sure.

This Sorgo guy is probably strong as hell IRL

Vader wins.

Funny how much we have learned since '06.

Obviously Vader stomps. It's spite.....surprised it hasn't been closed.

Vader stomps