Exar Kun and Ulic versus Sidious and Dooku

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Dark Aristokrat
Location is on Korriban, the surface.

Illustrious
Which Sidious? ROTS or DE?

Really I'd have to give it to Exar and Ulic either way, but DE Sidious would make it close. The two of them were straight up prodigies, had a closer tie towards the actual techniques of the ancient Sith Empire (the source of later generations' dark side powers), and had superior combat feats.

Dark Aristokrat
Let's go DE.

Darth_Glentract
Ulic, the weaker of the two, could rather easily take Dooku. Exar would proceed to defeat DE Sidious, or pwn ROTS Sidious.

Lightsnake
and then Exar's fantasy ends and Sidious shoves a lightsaber through his face

Dark Aristokrat
Yeah, right. Suuuuure.

Lightsnake
OF course, how could I forget? Exar has a ponytail.

calvin44
Originally posted by Lightsnake
OF course, how could I forget? Exar has a ponytail.
He also has a... Happy Dance DANCING BANANA!!!!!

Dark Aristokrat
Stow that banana, man!

Lightsnake
I'll give Exar this....he's the only person in Tales of the JEdi that deserves the title of Sith

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll give Exar this....he's the only person in Tales of the JEdi that deserves the title of Sith

Proof?

Lightsnake
He DOESN'T have to convince the race that should be malevolence incarnate that a pair of plucky, inept orphans who are obviously no threat whatsoever are NOT vicious assassins....let alone avenge the tragic death of a talking head....and Exar at the very least has a perfect excuse for failure: He let Ulic run off and do as he wanted just to laugh at him....and unlike Naga, he had presence.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He DOESN'T have to convince the race that should be malevolence incarnate that a pair of plucky, inept orphans who are obviously no threat whatsoever are NOT vicious assassins....let alone avenge the tragic death of a talking head....and Exar at the very least has a perfect excuse for failure: He let Ulic run off and do as he wanted just to laugh at him....and unlike Naga, he had presence.

And that proves anything??? No, it doesn't. Try actual facts that mean something this time.

Lightsnake
How about...he doesn't get the Sith completely genocided? Yeah, that sounds good

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
How about...he doesn't get the Sith completely genocided? Yeah, that sounds good

Yes, he does, as they are wiped out during his reign.

BTW, Ragnos had no part in the Sith dying out. Oh, and Ulic, a guy who could fully contend with Exar, feared Ragnos even when Ragnos was just a spirit.

Lightsnake
When did anyone show fear over Ragnos? We saw a brief look of curiosity over Exar but that was it for faces, minus pain when they got branded.
Moreover, the Sith survived after Exar in the form of the remaining Krath...and to his credit, Ragnos DID warn Ludo KRessh and Naga to knock off what they were trying to do

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
When did anyone show fear over Ragnos? We saw a brief look of curiosity over Exar but that was it for faces, minus pain when they got branded.
Moreover, the Sith survived after Exar in the form of the remaining Krath...and to his credit, Ragnos DID warn Ludo KRessh and Naga to knock off what they were trying to do

Krath aren't Sith. If you want to consider anyone but truly Sith Krath, then they never died, since they were still around all the way to 36 A.B.Y.(where the SW timeline currently ends).

We saw Ulic sitting there watching his title being given to Exar. Why didn'e object? He was certainly willing to fight against Exar for it, but would not do so against Ragnos.

calvin44
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Krath aren't Sith. If you want to consider anyone but truly Sith Krath, then they never died, since they were still around all the way to 36 A.B.Y.(where the SW timeline currently ends).

We saw Ulic sitting there watching his title being given to Exar. Why didn'e object? He was certainly willing to fight against Exar for it, but would not do so against Ragnos.
He was content with being given the title of apprentice from Marka, cause he knew his time to rise would come, as always happens with the sith, the apprentice kills the master.

Lightsnake
There was hardly a master/apprentice thing going on with Ulic and Exar. Nothing taught, nothing learned....and he was fighting Exar because Exar'd just waltzed into kill him and Aleema...for some odd reason he decided to turn evil in two panels

Darth_Glentract
He was still to afraid to argue against being named the apprentice even though he stalemated Exar.

Lightsnake
I really don't know where being afraid came into it. Ulic seemed to view it as just a title and considered himself the truer Sith Lord....he tells exar off rather nicely in The Sith War.

calvin44
He lacked confidence at this point, and didn't question Marka Ragnos, would you? And he was facing sith, so it was join or be killed, and all he lived for, was just killed right infront of him.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by calvin44
He lacked confidence at this point, and didn't question Marka Ragnos, would you? And he was facing sith, so it was join or be killed, and all he lived for, was just killed right infront of him.

Of course I wouldn't challenge Marka, but I'm not a powerful force user.

Like I said though, he didn't stand against Marka because he was to weak.

Lightsnake
He'd just had his entire world crumble before his eyes...

calvin44
Dude, I'm saying your right.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He'd just had his entire world crumble before his eyes...

And Ragnos has been dead for a thousand years. Someone always has it worse then you. Leia was still rather composed after seeing her literal world really destroyed.

calvin44
Love turned Anankin, it could easily turn Ulic as well.

Lightsnake
Tell that to Nomi...considering ragnos got to hang on Korriban, all connected to the Darkside, I doubt he much minded being dead

calvin44
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tell that to Nomi...considering ragnos got to hang on Korriban, all connected to the Darkside, I doubt he much minded being dead i mean loss and the fear of loss.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tell that to Nomi...considering ragnos got to hang on Korriban, all connected to the Darkside, I doubt he much minded being dead

He would, since he was would constantly be losing his power and there was nothing the Sith hated more then that. Life as a spirit was a cruel torture for them.

Lightsnake
I really don't think they lost power on Korriban, center of all evil, world of darkness...

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I really don't think they lost power on Korriban, center of all evil, world of darkness...

They did. It's a fact, proven on mutiple occasions.

calvin44
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
They did. It's a fact, proven on mutiple occasions.
Name these "Multiple occasions" besides the fact they lose physical power because they dont have a body.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by calvin44
Name these "Multiple occasions" besides the fact they lose physical power because they dont have a body.

We've shown it mutiple times in the days long past, before you guys got here.

calvin44
So it shouldn't be hard for you to give us substantial, canon proof, right?

calvin44
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
We've shown it mutiple times in the days long past, before you guys got here.
new to these forums doesn't mean we are new to star wars, or make us "noobs"

Darth_Glentract
Whether or not you are new to SW doesn't matter, you don't know what we have discussed here. I'm to lazy to find it right now. You should be able to find it pretty quick if you try.

calvin44
Its your job to do that seeing as how your trying to convince us.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by calvin44
Its your job to do that seeing as how your trying to convince us.

Right now I really don't care whether I convince you or not. I'm right.

But, I'll entertain you for a while.

Obi-wan's power decreased after he died until the point he could no longer speak with Luke.

Ajunta Pall lost his memories and was only a shadow of his former self after he died.

Ragnos was feared by people like Ulic as a young spirit, but was later weakened to the point where he lost to Jaden.

Exar was slowly weakened to the point where he could barely talk after several thousand years.

It's rather obvious. If you don't believe me, that's to bad, I don't care.

w00t2112
Exar Kun/ Ulic, no point giving reasons...people have stated it

Borbarad
I think Dooku might be able to stop Ulic in a duel (not defeating him but stalemate him) because of his form II mastery and his experience. That won't matter because Kun will curbstomp Sidious in a lightsaber fight and I don't think that Sidious (even DE Sidious) would have enough time to drop a force storm on the place.

So I guess Exar would take Sidious first and then he and Ulic will kill Dooku. Even if Dooku would somehow manage to take Ulic down, he isn't a match for Kun.

Conclusion: Ulic and Exar win...

Lightsnake
When Kun shows the skill to kill three skilled masters in seconds, or anyone in seconds, then he can speak...oh, wait, I forgot! He's got a ponytail, a scar and a double sided saber! Yes, that means he's awesome.
Sidious would destroy Exar in a force duel....and I fail to see why Ulic is considered so good

w00t2112
proof lightsnake? on how sidious owns him?

Dark Aristokrat
Originally posted by Lightsnake
When Kun shows the skill to kill three skilled masters in seconds, or anyone in seconds, then he can speak...oh, wait, I forgot! He's got a ponytail, a scar and a double sided saber! Yes, that means he's awesome.
Sidious would destroy Exar in a force duel....and I fail to see why Ulic is considered so good

I'm so glad that he's got his mind made up.

First off, you don't have to kill three jedi masters in under a minute to be Sidious' equivalent. Mace Windu hasn't done that. Neither has Yoda. Both contended with Sidious and arguably bested him in saber combat. So there goes that theory.

Second, Exar Kun is a lightsaber prodigy and master, who toyed with and beat the shit out of Vodo, who was renowned in his time for his lightsaber mastery (Or fighting mastery, if you will, since he rarely used a lightsaber anymore.) I could argue in a manner like you traditionally do and say that since Sidious hasn't bested a legendary lightsaber user in lightsaber combat like Kun has, Sidious would be curbstomped.

Third, you have no evidence to support that Sidious > Kun in a Force battle, but I'm sure you're willing to erupt into feat wars once I post this.

And fourth, Ulic was able to defeat a jedi in bladed combat once he was stripped of the force, and he defeated his brother and stalemated Kun. He IS good, period.

Lightsnake
Toyed with? Exar only pulled out his double bladed saber when it was clear he wasn't winning without it. And when was Vodo reknowned as a fighter exactly?

And yes, the feat wars...however dare I use what they've actually done to test their strength. and Sidious hasn't bested a legendary fighter in lightsaber combat? Luke. DE Luke to be exact.

Ulic bested a JEdi in bladed combat when he was stripped of the Force? He was doing all he could to hold off Sylvar who was noticeably in a complete berserker rage....and killed his brother? You mean 'cut down a young man who was not trying to fight Ulic?' His stalemat eof Kun could easily be seen as Kun's deficiency at that point and not Ulic's strength. Ulic had trouble at first against Satal Keto even

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Toyed with? Exar only pulled out his double bladed saber when it was clear he wasn't winning without it. And when was Vodo reknowned as a fighter exactly?

Exar defeated the grandmaster of the order (Vodo) where Sidious was beaten by the grandmaster of the order (Yoda). Your point being ?



Logical fallancy and you do it again and again. You always come up with "but Sidious destroyed the Jedi order". What does that have to do with Sidious personal power ? Did we see him run into the Temple on Coruscant and bash Jedi ? No...he sent a Legion of Clone Troopers to do the job. He reigned over a military regime for 2 decades. How does that say something about his personal power ? He had the control over a military force that had enough firepower to destroy everything else in the Galaxy and had superweapons able to destroy planets. Is that something he accomplished because of his sheer power ?



He bested DE Luke ? Ah...so "besting" is having your hand cut off ? And how was DE Luke a "legendary lightsaber duellist" compared to people like Yoda (who trained with that weapon for more than 800 years), Vodo (the same - 600 years), Mace (who invented his own style when he was a Padawan !) or Kun who was able to defeat the grandmaster of the Jedi order in a duel ?



Yeah...Ulic bested a Jedi in lightsaber combat without having force powers (TOTJ: Redemption). Berseker rage ? The Dark Side makes you stronger in fights (that's the reason why Nick Gillard rated Anakin about Obi-Wan in terms of lightsaber fights). Not to mention that Ulic did destroy Warb Null and he did cut down King Ommin pretty much. And how would stalemating Kun could be seen as Kun's deficiency ? So Kun is weak because he got beaten by a person that was a great fighter before starting his Jedi training and has gone to several conflicts. If a Padawan would beat Yoda in a lightsaber fight: Would you say Yoda is weak or the Padawan is a lightsaber prodigy, eh ?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
Exar defeated the grandmaster of the order (Vodo) where Sidious was beaten by the grandmaster of the order (Yoda). Your point being ?



Logical fallancy and you do it again and again. You always come up with "but Sidious destroyed the Jedi order". What does that have to do with Sidious personal power ? Did we see him run into the Temple on Coruscant and bash Jedi ? No...he sent a Legion of Clone Troopers to do the job. He reigned over a military regime for 2 decades. How does that say something about his personal power ? He had the control over a military force that had enough firepower to destroy everything else in the Galaxy and had superweapons able to destroy planets. Is that something he accomplished because of his sheer power ?



He bested DE Luke ? Ah...so "besting" is having your hand cut off ? And how was DE Luke a "legendary lightsaber duellist" compared to people like Yoda (who trained with that weapon for more than 800 years), Vodo (the same - 600 years), Mace (who invented his own style when he was a Padawan !) or Kun who was able to defeat the grandmaster of the Jedi order in a duel ?



Yeah...Ulic bested a Jedi in lightsaber combat without having force powers (TOTJ: Redemption). Berseker rage ? The Dark Side makes you stronger in fights (that's the reason why Nick Gillard rated Anakin about Obi-Wan in terms of lightsaber fights). Not to mention that Ulic did destroy Warb Null and he did cut down King Ommin pretty much. And how would stalemating Kun could be seen as Kun's deficiency ? So Kun is weak because he got beaten by a person that was a great fighter before starting his Jedi training and has gone to several conflicts. If a Padawan would beat Yoda in a lightsaber fight: Would you say Yoda is weak or the Padawan is a lightsaber prodigy, eh ?

Vodo grandmaster of the Order? The term 'grandmaster' wasn't even around then and Master Thon and Arca Jeth could have a few things to say about that....Grandmasters don;t think to relax on remote planets with three apprentices. And Sidious beaten by Yoda? Last I recall, Yoda scampered away and was dead even with Sidious.



You mean...show what they accomplished with the force to test their power?

First duel, with Luke alone, when Palpatine was in a new clone, Palpatine nearly destroyed Luke. And Luke had already used his saber to bring down an AT-AT. And considering Luke could actually match Palpatine...and Mace inventing his own style when he was a padawan? Proof. And I suppose we should ignore Palpatine killing Agen, Saesee and Kit. And Remind me where Vodo didn't give up agaisnt Exar Obi-wan style?

Sylvar was brushing the dark side and wasn't thinking clearly at all. Ulic held her off and convinced her to let go of her rage, that was it. And warb Null? Warb was a random scrub who appeared very briefly...and King Ommin? If by 'cut down' you mean 'sliced through a powerless old man's life support'...

And Kun was only stalemating an exhausted, wounded, sith poisoned Ulic...

IKC
Lightsnake, I'm rather tired of seeing people I respect debate with a liar and not call him out on said lies.





http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3084/kunvsvodo11th.th.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3310/kunvsvodo20mk.th.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4569/kunvsvodo38ja.th.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7900/kunvsvodo47ob.th.jpg

Neither of your ridiculous assertions are supported by the comic. You're a liar and a fanboy. Kun wipes the floor with Sidious and Dooku, by himself. Ulic just seals the deal (and if you want to go into feat wars, I have plenty more ammunition).

Captain REX
In a fight of swords, I would most certainly hand this to Kun.

Must be said though...a staff is a poor substitute for a lightsaber...more weight and less maneuverability. *shrug*

Lightsnake
You call ME a fanboy, IKC?
1. Explain them being deadlocked before Kun activated the double bladed saber
2. Explain Vodo's line of 'You and I will fight again' etc etc.
I forget where Kun killed three skilled Jedi in seconds. Go right on into feat wars, buddy. You want confirmation Sidious could wipe the floor with Kun in a force duel?

IKC
1) Deadlocked? You realize that it's only deadlocked on Vodo's part, right? Kun seems to be spending more time talking than fighting. And explain Kun's grins in all those panels if he's actually being stalemated by his old master. A man that's grinning during a fight is usually the man that's winning it.

2) Oh yes Lightsnake, he gave up. That's why in the last panel his arms are still holding up his staff in a defensive position and Kun just powers through his staff, which Vodo made "more powerful than (a) lightsaber." Vodo knew he was beaten but he didn't give up as you assert. See, your assertions beg for proof, and there is none.

Feat wars:

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/3471/sithbeastkun9ek.th.jpg

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

Note how Kun's blasts rip holes in both the monstrosity and the temple walls. I doubt that Sidious is made of harder stuff than either of those things. One blast, and Sidious dies.


http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

Of course, Kun probably doesn't even need to do such a thing. I could, of course, argue that he kills Sidious with a wave of his hand like so.

Force battle: Kun wins.

Saber battle: Kun definitely wins.

Lightsnake
1. Explain why, just before Exar ignites the other end of his saber, he's locked with Vodo, gritting his teeth. When is Kun smiling during that entire fight?

2. To vanish? Vodo would certainly need to prepare for death.

3. Oh yes, what a feat! Amazing, incredible! Too bad he's facing an enemy who can destroy an entire fleet with the force, tear a ship to pieces just to demonstrate a lesson to Leia....and what're those things Kun has on his arms? The only reason he survived? Could those be....Sith gauntlets? So it's not REALLY his power doing that?

IKC
1) Locked? Better take a closer look at the picture, Lightsnake. They aren't even touching when the second blade is activated. It is obvious that Kun is toying with Vodo throughout the entire fight. It is your assertion that it was a stalemate that begs for proof, not mine. And there's no proof to be found in the comic - you're basically saying that because Kun used overkill by igniting both ends then he couldn't do it with just one. Nonsense, prove up.

2) Idle speculation with no proof whatsoever. Vodo didn't give up, and you know it.

3) Wow, and what fleets is our esteemed Sidious going to be destroying in this fight? Oh? What's that? None? Most likely because he'll be too busy getting his ass handed to him by a blast from Kun's hand (which he can do repeatedly with no warm-up time as shown in the comic) or Kun's saber.

And as the rest of the planet has argued, Lightsnake, the fighters are not fighting naked. Ergo, whether its his own power or not is completely irrelevant. Kun and Ulic win.

Dark Aristokrat
Pwnt.

Nice job, men.

D_CP
Now let's move on.

Lightsnake
1. Which is why he's clearly showing exertion when they're locked? And perhaps he stepped back and then ignited the other end?

2. "You and I will fight again" etc etc.....then he vanishes. Yep, he in no way gave up.

3. Take that amulet away and see how well your precious Kun does. Whine whine, they won't fight naked! Well, too bad, if you're comparing someone' power, no boosters. Hey, maybe we'll give Sidious all he got from Korriban and Ziost! Why don't we see how well Kun does when force lightning that devastates an army is turned on him.

IKC
1) Clearly showing exertion hm? Care to point that out? As he's igniting the other end, the grin is back on his face, I point out. Again, put up or shut up. Prove it was a stalemate. You can't, because it wasn't.

2) Prove up. His quote only means that he knew he was beaten. That doesn't mean he gave up. Again, put up or shut up.

3) Oh, alright. Let's orchestrate the rules to ensure our favorite characters win!

Okay, Sidious doesn't get to use his arms or legs and he has to be hooked up to a machine that jabs him periodically with a fondue fork!

For one, your argument is nonsensical. This is a fight and not a comparison of natural power, and it is a contest that Sidious will lose. Two, you cannot prove that Sidious' natural force power is greater than Kun's (indeed, one would assume the opposite given that Kun's was the highest of his time).

Lightsnake
1. That's hardly a grin when he activates the other end. Right before that, his eyes are narrowed and his teeth are gritting.

2. Well, gee, the idea they would fight again, and lo and behold they did...not to mention he had to prepare to die to vanish...

3. Key word: At the time. Whereas Sidious is described as, in the DE sourcebook, as the strongest Sith ever, has devastated fleets with the forces-might've helped Kun when the Jedi came a knocking- sucked the life and force energy out of....billions of people, received hands on training from the spirits of the Ancients, learned Jedi secrets, absorbed the power of a Sith holocron, Imbued machines with the power of the force, like Kun he showed himself a proficient alchemists, imbued men with the power of the Dark Side, destroyed a ship and blew a lightsaber to pieces just to prove a point to Leia, killed a small army of storm troopers with force lightning...

IKC
1) You're not proving up as I asked. Your claim that it was a stalemate is as baseless as you are a fanboy.

2) Ditto #1, put up or shut up. This is otherwise known as calling you out for proof. You have none.

3) Of his time I typed. Whereas ancient Sith are described in the actual material as "godlike," Kun himself curbstomps every single opponent that faces him during the Sith War, gathers more knowledge from both Jedi and Sith in six short months than Palpatine could hope to acquire in his lifetime (described as "more wealth and knowledge than (Kun) can ever use," by the narrator), can blast apart solid stone and alchemical monstrosities created by the master of alchemy himself (Sadow), can instakill one of the oldest and most experienced Jedi of all time, can toy with and utterly destroy the Grandmaster of the order, and freeze the Galactic Senate with its tens of thousands of members (at the least), etc etc.

Let's see Sidious do anything after Kun blasts him and creates a gaping empty space where his torso used to be.

Lightsnake
1. What? Look at that pic...are they NOT trading blows for a time, then locking weapons, with Kun's teeth gritted?
2. Explain, if you will, how he vanishes and says they'll fight again in the fuiture if he hadn't prepared himself for death.

3. Kun fights one person during the Sith War. He can't defeat Ulic, though. And learned more than PAlpatine could ever hope for? Palpatine was described as learnining the darkest secrets of the Sith and learning from the spirits of the Ancients, who invited him to join them on Korriban. And Kun himself says it's more than he can ever use on Ossus...shame he never has a chance to read or implement any of it.
Amusing how it was the amulet doing all the work for him at that point in time...and Vodo the grandmaster? What of Thon or Arca? Grandmasters don't stay on backwater planets with three apprentices. And Kun was able to freeze everyone except who mattered: The Jedi. We know Palpatine paralyzed and fed from millions of people and force energy on Byss....and for some reason, blasting through a temple is a bit less impressive than destroying a ship and later on a fleet

IKC
1) And you seem to think that this is proof of a stalemate rather than Kun toying with him? Sorry, it's certainly not enough. They trade blows certainly, much like Dooku traded blows with Anakin in AOTC. Prove that they were stalemated, for the final time.

2) There is no evidence that one needs to prepare oneself for death, Lightsnake. Do you think Odan-Urr had a real chance to prepare himself? How about Arca? Certainly Arca had more of a chance than Odan, but not much more. Your point is groundless, there is no evidence to support it. Vodo's blocking in his final act, to try and spare his own life. Prove that Vodo gave up, for the final time.

3) Kun fights three, really. Two, of course, he simply overpowers with a wave of his hand. Sylvar is lucky that Kun only bothered to push her back. It is ridiculous to say that Kun wouldn't be able to over power Ulic during the Sith War, however. Ulic shows no prowess in Sith Magic or any evidence that he's learned a thing about it. Kun, however, has shown massive improvement.

The narrator says that Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use. Not Kun. And read what I wrote, I said he gathered more than Sidious ever could hope to.

Amusing how your assumption that all his power comes from the amulet is the basis of your argument when you have precisely zero evidence indicating such and secondly can't refute that even if it is his amulet (and he has either found or built at least one more by the Sith War) that Kun would still win, because he's not fighting naked.

By the way, Arca was certainly not the Grandmaster of the order. Arca was merely the guardian of Onderon and Thon was little more than a beast sitting around on Ambria with no apprentices, apparently, since Oss Willum. I could be like you and argue that Grandmasters don't sit around on their little green asses on Coruscant wasting time with the temple's younglings.

And please, don't demean Kun's feat by stating he couldn't freeze the Jedi. As he proved to them during the entire sequence, the Jedi could do nothing to stop him. What purpose would freezing them serve? I'd submit that the mob of senators and their armed guards would pose more of a threat to him than a handful of Jedi who are beneath even his ignorant apprentice.

And blasting through the beast and the temple is far more impressive when you consider that Kun requires apparently little energy to do it and the technique requires seemingly no charge time (indeed, he's able to destroy Nadd moments after the beast is slain).

Sidious cannot win this fight. Give it up

Lightsnake
1. Kun TOYING with an enemy like Vodo when he's showing exertion with three other Jedi off to the side who just slaughtered his body guards? And he would have no need to play a trump if he could've crushed Vodo as it was

2. Vodo vanishes. We see Yoda prepare for death, we see Obi-wan, we see Arca sure as HELL prepare....he smiles gently at Ulic as says "I know the light." Before dying...we see Odan resign himself sadly...he didn't instantly die. He falls to the ground and whispers he is too old and that evil is loose.

3. Kun and Sylvar never fought. And that little line is from Exar's POV. Sidious had access to....a LOT of the wealth and knowledge of the Ancient Sith AND Jedi orders, perfected and refined the darkest secrets of the Ancient Sith empires....you ginore how exar never had the CHANCE to use any of the info he got, so 'gathered' really doesn't matter.

And Sidious wouldn't fight naked either, so that's everything Sidious has from the Ancients, all their techniques and his powers, which are far more than Kun's ever done...

And if the Jedi decided to mob Exar right there, he was a dead man.

Please, tell me when Vodo showed himself to be grandmaster? Yoda at least directed the order and made decisions on the capital. Ood Bnar stayed on the capital as well....the same Ood Bnar who Palpatine's SERVANT matched

And requires little energy to blast the temple beast? Could that be because of the massive sith gauntlet? And Palpatine requires little effort to curse a family line and subsequently destroy a fleet with no charge time and little effort. And considering all Kun does is PUNCH Nadd and let the amulet do the work...

IKC
1) Showing exertion? Is that why he slaps the hell out of him so easily, then? Is that why soon after Kun stopped toying around Vodo knew he was beaten? You submitted no proof that Kun and Vodo were stalemated after several posts. Ergo, I will treat this point as defeated.

By the way, you're caught in another lie.



And, you posted this lie in a post some time ago:



http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8052/sylvarnoconsequence2mj.th.jpg

That's the extent of the Massassi that were killed. Two to a handful at the most. And some expression of fear on Kun's face when he brushes her off and turns his back to the Jedi as he ascends the Chancellor's podium.

This is, of course, not to mention the fact that the narrator states that she's of no consequence to him.

You cannot win a debate by lying, Lightsnake.

2) Let me explain to you in a condescending way, since it seems you're not bright enough to get this.

You. Have. No. Proof. That. Preparation. Is. Necessary.

Ergo, I believe that,

You're. Making. It. Up.

Because,

You. Have. Been. Caught. In. Lies. Before.

Any questions now? A lie repeated often enough does not become true when someone can counter you.

There is no indication in the narration, dialogue, or action, that preparation is necessary. Your point collapses due to lack of proof.

3) Ooh, yet another lie.



http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/7934/kunleavesthesenate1me.th.jpg

Like I said, Sylvar is lucky that Kun didn't do what he did to Odan-Urr. And look there! Kun still has Massassi! Why, but I thought they all got WTPWNed by the Jedi! After all, Lightsnake said so, it must be true!

Another lie, unless you think Exar is the narrator...



http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3984/kunmorewealthknowledge2sb.th.jpg

Note that it is not Kun thinks or Kun surmises. The omniscient narrator states that he knows it is more wealth and knowledge, etc. etc.



Actually, the only knowledge he gathered that he didn't get a chance to use is in the above picture. Only the Jedi secrets. He had already had what he gathered from the Sith for some time.



Prove up. Such as? How is any of it going to save him when Kun, living only one thousand years past the death of the empire and ergo has access to more of their knowledge, blasts him through the chest?



Got any proof? I doubt it. The comic indicates otherwise, given that he proved he could toss them around like ragdolls and toy with the most powerful among them.



Ood actually stayed on Ossus and was beaten by Kun (with minor help from a single sneaky Massassi). After getting hit, he declared that combat wasn't his skill (which doesn't really speak well for Palpatine's servant, especially since Ood at that point was rooted to one spot on a dead world alone for four thosand years) and underwent his lifecycle change.

Vodo however, unlike Arca, Thon, and Ood, was actually doing something of importance; like training the most powerful Force user of the time. Vodo was known for his combat skills (I'd like to see Thon swing a saber, not having hands or opposable digits would be a problem. The Jedi was a quadroped for God's sake). Really, only Odan-Urr could be said to be the Grandmaster over Vodo because of his age. And that wouldn't speak well for your position either, given that Kun destroys him with a wave of his hand.



I suggest you take a look at the comic. Kun does it repeatedly and afterwards destroys Nadd; it obviously requires no recharge time and minimal effort from Kun himself.

For the last time, though, Kun is not fighting naked. As well, for the last time, you cannot prove that the majority or even very much of his power came from said amulet.

Exar and Ulic win. Lying fanboys can't save Sidious or Dooku.

w00t2112
Please, Lightsnake...do not say sidious could possibly posses the knowledge and artifacts that exar kun had, why? its 4000-5000 years since then, unless you're saying every little holocron, every small amount of knowledge was not touched nor looted nor lost nor destroyed....the chances of that happening? below 0, you're a fanboy...you want luke to be the supreme force user of all time and sidious to be the supreme sith...its pure fanboyism...so stfu, btw exar didn't need to demonstrate such feats as sidious did, he pretty much conquered the galaxy, until ulic gave him up....oh btw yoda > sidious ( long fight) vodo = yoda (assumed, around same age, same amount of training) exar kun toyed with vodo....kun > vodo ( short fight ) proves you wrong, as well there are more sources on sidious, if you base it upon feats then you're hell stupid...so you're saying if i could destroy a imperial star fleet with lightning taking ages to prepare i can beat a sith who froze the entire senate, rescued his apprentice, slayed his former master and go out without a scratch? fanboys should be banned!

Lightsnake
Originally posted by IKC
1) Showing exertion? Is that why he slaps the hell out of him so easily, then? Is that why soon after Kun stopped toying around Vodo knew he was beaten? You submitted no proof that Kun and Vodo were stalemated after several posts. Ergo, I will treat this point as defeated.

By the way, you're caught in another lie.



And, you posted this lie in a post some time ago:



http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8052/sylvarnoconsequence2mj.th.jpg

That's the extent of the Massassi that were killed. Two to a handful at the most. And some expression of fear on Kun's face when he brushes her off and turns his back to the Jedi as he ascends the Chancellor's podium.

This is, of course, not to mention the fact that the narrator states that she's of no consequence to him.

You cannot win a debate by lying, Lightsnake.

2) Let me explain to you in a condescending way, since it seems you're not bright enough to get this.

You. Have. No. Proof. That. Preparation. Is. Necessary.

Ergo, I believe that,

You're. Making. It. Up.

Because,

You. Have. Been. Caught. In. Lies. Before.

Any questions now? A lie repeated often enough does not become true when someone can counter you.

There is no indication in the narration, dialogue, or action, that preparation is necessary. Your point collapses due to lack of proof.

3) Ooh, yet another lie.



http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/7934/kunleavesthesenate1me.th.jpg

Like I said, Sylvar is lucky that Kun didn't do what he did to Odan-Urr. And look there! Kun still has Massassi! Why, but I thought they all got WTPWNed by the Jedi! After all, Lightsnake said so, it must be true!

Another lie, unless you think Exar is the narrator...



http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3984/kunmorewealthknowledge2sb.th.jpg

Note that it is not Kun thinks or Kun surmises. The omniscient narrator states that he knows it is more wealth and knowledge, etc. etc.



Actually, the only knowledge he gathered that he didn't get a chance to use is in the above picture. Only the Jedi secrets. He had already had what he gathered from the Sith for some time.



Prove up. Such as? How is any of it going to save him when Kun, living only one thousand years past the death of the empire and ergo has access to more of their knowledge, blasts him through the chest?



Got any proof? I doubt it. The comic indicates otherwise, given that he proved he could toss them around like ragdolls and toy with the most powerful among them.



Ood actually stayed on Ossus and was beaten by Kun (with minor help from a single sneaky Massassi). After getting hit, he declared that combat wasn't his skill (which doesn't really speak well for Palpatine's servant, especially since Ood at that point was rooted to one spot on a dead world alone for four thosand years) and underwent his lifecycle change.

Vodo however, unlike Arca, Thon, and Ood, was actually doing something of importance; like training the most powerful Force user of the time. Vodo was known for his combat skills (I'd like to see Thon swing a saber, not having hands or opposable digits would be a problem. The Jedi was a quadroped for God's sake). Really, only Odan-Urr could be said to be the Grandmaster over Vodo because of his age. And that wouldn't speak well for your position either, given that Kun destroys him with a wave of his hand.



I suggest you take a look at the comic. Kun does it repeatedly and afterwards destroys Nadd; it obviously requires no recharge time and minimal effort from Kun himself.

For the last time, though, Kun is not fighting naked. As well, for the last time, you cannot prove that the majority or even very much of his power came from said amulet.

Exar and Ulic win. Lying fanboys can't save Sidious or Dooku.


1. *Yawn* Here we go again: Kun never claims an advantage before he goes double blade AND IS SHOWN LOCKING VOOD WITH TEETH GRITTED.

2. Explain Yoda, Daeshra'Cor, Obi-wan, Arca, Oooroo...EVERY Jedi who has ever vanished has prepared for death. The NEC backs this up: Vanishing into the light was a technique only only to a true master, and it's later said Anakin Skywalker did the same, preparing to move into the light.

3. Sylvar still butchered Kun's gloriopus Massassi with her BARE HANDS, Exar has a twinge of fear, realizes she can't hurt him...of course if she teamed up with the other three Jedi there, Kun'd be screwed...and considering we see Sylovar slaughtering Massassi fully later on....Kun would do what exactly if Vodo, Cay, Nomi AND Sylvar who'd just shwon herself capable of killing Massassi barehanded teamed up now? Iw as wrong about all the Massassi dying, doesn't change the fact they didn't hold a candle to one of the Jedi there

4. Yeah, what'd he have from the Sith? a single holocron he shattered and never used? A bit of searching on Korriban? He never used a scrap of what he found on Ossus.

5. Dark Side sorucebook. Palpatine learned the darkest secrets of the old Empire...when the spirits never taught Kun ANYTHING, unlocked the secrets of the Force from captured holocrons, absorbed the power of a Sith holocron, had access to Vodo Baas's holocron....Whereas Kun onlylived because he was locked in Yavin, going insane...yep, REAL victory surviving there...now, I would hardly call Sylvar any sort of the strongest Jedi...And is exar could do what Sidious did, he wouldn't have run.

6. Force energy equals lightsaber combat? Ood was still a foremsopt master of the order and was only on Ossu right then and there as he'd been on Coruscant before. Ood's force ability neevr decreased especially as he was fighting Sedriss by drawing power up from Ossus itself. And oh, please....when was Vodo reknowned for combat? Arca did far more than we've seen Vodo do and was training three powerful students. Vodo had two powerful students and Crado. And we saw Thon tear the throat out of a hssiss and say himself he hates killing.

7. Good for Kun. Now, what does he EVER do of power before he gets the gauntlets? How's he going to stand against a Sith Lord who unlike Kun didn't need a massive ritual to free his spirit, has trained with and by the spirits of the Ancients and learned their dark secrets, can destroy fleets effortlessly, curse family lines, enter the ritual seen in Sithisis...wait, will Kun's ponytail save him? Will he manage to blow Palpatine from sucking his life out? Will he block the force lightning capable of destroying over fifty men?What's more impressive now....destroying a temple's walls....or destroying a fleet?

IKC
1) Ah yes, because locking with someone is definitive proof of a stalemate, correct? I guess Dooku was stalemated against Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC for a good while, then. Thanks for clearing that up. Again, this point is long-defeated because you offer no proof.

2) Again, you have no proof that preparation is necessary. PROVE UP. That plus you cannot argue with scans: Vodo's last act is an attempt to block Kun's swing. You have no proof that Vodo gave up, you're simply making things up: par for the course when debating with you.

What you're claiming is that because these other Jedi managed to eke out a few words then that means they were, somehow, despite the fact that no indication is given in the narration or otherwise in the story, preparing to turn into ghosts. I guess Padme was doing the same because she managed to speak a few words before she died, then?

Have you even heard of Occam's razor?

3) Correction: Sylvar killed two Massassi because she repeatedly gives into the Dark Side by getting angry.



YOU. ARE. MAKING. THIS. UP.

If you want to continue debating with me (or anyone else for that matter), stop lying. You cannot get away with it because the scans are right there. Kun frowns and the narrator says she's of no consequence to him. That means he does not fear her, period.



He'd kill all of them. Replace them with the PT Jedi council and the result would be the same. I suggest you look at the scans again; Kun instakills Odan-Urr, who is far above everyone in that group except Vodo, toys with and slaughters Vodo himself, and tosses Sylvar around like a ragdoll and makes her cry! He's completely out of their league.

4) Wow, now you're absolutely delusional. What in God's name do you think he recovered from Nadd's tomb then? Do you think children's bedtime stories were written on those scrolls? How about the trove of knowledge and equipment Kun recovered from what Naga Sadow left behind, information that wasn't available to anyone because that giant beast was guarding it? Indeed, it's probable that Kun learned more of Sadow's workings than anyone else other than Sadow himself.

5) Ooh, the "darkest secrets." Nevermind that Kun had Sadow's private notes, knowledge recovered from Nadd's tomb, knowledge recovered from Korriban, etc etc. That plus the man was practically baptized by Ragnos himself.

But we're getting off topic: None of that will save Sidious when Kun blasts a giant hole in his chest.

6) Seems I've caught you in another lie. So Ood just showed up on Ossus to get pwned by Kun, right? Is that why I have this scan from Dark Lords of the Sith?

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/9048/oodonossus8zf.th.jpg

Seems to me that Ood was a keeper of knowledge at best. Interestingly enough, the only Jedi master we see on Coruscant in the entire series is - guess who? - the Grandmaster himself, VODO.

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/8302/vodocoruscant6hy.th.jpg

I mean, he's speaking with the Chancellor himself as well. Seems you're proven wrong.



And Arca got pwned by a droid when he was lecturing Ulic on being aware of surprise attacks. And you actually think Cay Qel-Droma was powerful? Please. I'll take Crado over him.



Indeed, he had to do that because he's a freaking quadroped. Oh, by the way, we don't know that those creatures are hssiss. They go unnamed in the narration and dialogue. That being said, what's your point?

7) Kun didn't do much before he got Sadow's gauntlet (singular) but that has more to do with the fact that he hadn't yet embraced the Dark Side than anything else. He finally accepts the Dark Side as soon as the amulet clamps on to his hand.



Kun's ritual would have let him roam freely throughout the cosmos. This is in contrast to Sidious who was stuck on the rather long journey from Endor to Byss. It failed because all the Jedi in the galaxy happened to be in orbit above Yavin 4 attacking him with the Light side.

Again, how is any of that going to save Sidious when Kun replaces his chest with a fine red mist, or slices his head off easily with his saber, or simply instakills him as he did Odan-Urr?

Answer? It won't. Lying fanboys will not save Sidious.

Dark Aristokrat
Da-amn.

QED.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes, he does, as they are wiped out during his reign.

BTW, Ragnos had no part in the Sith dying out. Oh, and Ulic, a guy who could fully contend with Exar, feared Ragnos even when Ragnos was just a spirit.

There could be many reasons for that. For example, Exar and Ulic coulden't possibly know what powers he had gained as a spirit. Even if he didn't get any they would not know, and since he was a spirit they coulden't kill him.
Woulden't you be scared if you saw a ghost, woulden't you wonder what he could do to you?

But that's just what I think.

IKC
Neither of them feared the spirit. They just stopped fighting each other, got inducted and branded, and joined forces.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by IKC
1) Ah yes, because locking with someone is definitive proof of a stalemate, correct? I guess Dooku was stalemated against Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC for a good while, then. Thanks for clearing that up. Again, this point is long-defeated because you offer no proof.

2) Again, you have no proof that preparation is necessary. PROVE UP. That plus you cannot argue with scans: Vodo's last act is an attempt to block Kun's swing. You have no proof that Vodo gave up, you're simply making things up: par for the course when debating with you.

What you're claiming is that because these other Jedi managed to eke out a few words then that means they were, somehow, despite the fact that no indication is given in the narration or otherwise in the story, preparing to turn into ghosts. I guess Padme was doing the same because she managed to speak a few words before she died, then?

Have you even heard of Occam's razor?

3) Correction: Sylvar killed two Massassi because she repeatedly gives into the Dark Side by getting angry.



YOU. ARE. MAKING. THIS. UP.

If you want to continue debating with me (or anyone else for that matter), stop lying. You cannot get away with it because the scans are right there. Kun frowns and the narrator says she's of no consequence to him. That means he does not fear her, period.



He'd kill all of them. Replace them with the PT Jedi council and the result would be the same. I suggest you look at the scans again; Kun instakills Odan-Urr, who is far above everyone in that group except Vodo, toys with and slaughters Vodo himself, and tosses Sylvar around like a ragdoll and makes her cry! He's completely out of their league.

4) Wow, now you're absolutely delusional. What in God's name do you think he recovered from Nadd's tomb then? Do you think children's bedtime stories were written on those scrolls? How about the trove of knowledge and equipment Kun recovered from what Naga Sadow left behind, information that wasn't available to anyone because that giant beast was guarding it? Indeed, it's probable that Kun learned more of Sadow's workings than anyone else other than Sadow himself.

5) Ooh, the "darkest secrets." Nevermind that Kun had Sadow's private notes, knowledge recovered from Nadd's tomb, knowledge recovered from Korriban, etc etc. That plus the man was practically baptized by Ragnos himself.

But we're getting off topic: None of that will save Sidious when Kun blasts a giant hole in his chest.

6) Seems I've caught you in another lie. So Ood just showed up on Ossus to get pwned by Kun, right? Is that why I have this scan from Dark Lords of the Sith?

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/9048/oodonossus8zf.th.jpg

Seems to me that Ood was a keeper of knowledge at best. Interestingly enough, the only Jedi master we see on Coruscant in the entire series is - guess who? - the Grandmaster himself, VODO.

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/8302/vodocoruscant6hy.th.jpg

I mean, he's speaking with the Chancellor himself as well. Seems you're proven wrong.



And Arca got pwned by a droid when he was lecturing Ulic on being aware of surprise attacks. And you actually think Cay Qel-Droma was powerful? Please. I'll take Crado over him.



Indeed, he had to do that because he's a freaking quadroped. Oh, by the way, we don't know that those creatures are hssiss. They go unnamed in the narration and dialogue. That being said, what's your point?

7) Kun didn't do much before he got Sadow's gauntlet (singular) but that has more to do with the fact that he hadn't yet embraced the Dark Side than anything else. He finally accepts the Dark Side as soon as the amulet clamps on to his hand.



Kun's ritual would have let him roam freely throughout the cosmos. This is in contrast to Sidious who was stuck on the rather long journey from Endor to Byss. It failed because all the Jedi in the galaxy happened to be in orbit above Yavin 4 attacking him with the Light side.

Again, how is any of that going to save Sidious when Kun replaces his chest with a fine red mist, or slices his head off easily with his saber, or simply instakills him as he did Odan-Urr?

Answer? It won't. Lying fanboys will not save Sidious.


1. Explain why Kun found it necessary to ignite his blade and there is a clear look of exertion on his face. When you pull out a trump card after a saber lock? Yeah, you've been stalemating them up to that point. And you call ME a fanboy....what's next, can Kun's ponytail turn back time?

2. Well, Padme wasn't a Jedi was she? And EVERY OTHER JEDI prepared for Death. This's directly stated in te NEC to be a true tecnique known only to true Jedi masters to join with the Force and vanish into it. We see Obi-wan close his eyes and raise his blade, Yoda says he'll die soon himself, Vodo tells Exar it's not the end when he clearly knows he's going to die, Arca smiles and tells Ulic he knows the light.....Oh, how about Empajytos Brand or Jen Ysana?

3. Could making Sylvar cry have anything to do with ENSLAVING HER HUSBAND AND KILLING HER MASTER? Toys with Vodo? Proof now. When was Odan-Urr reknowned for his combat skill? His main skill was battle med and nonviolent techniques. And Ood managed to clash sabers with Kun before he got blindsided...that's ALREADY more impressive than Vodo who was injured in one swing. And what lie? I said Ood was there at that point. Unless Ood says: "I have always been on Ossus, always on Ossus, I have never left Ossus and never will." Especially as he was probably older than Odann, his homeworld was Ryykk... And Kun'd kill them all? And you call ME a fanboy....Yoda, Mace Windu, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin....all rushing Kun at once? Please.

4. He brought a small contingent of knights to the planet. That's....well, that's it really...where's the grand temple where Odan and Ood stayed at? It isn't there? I want DIRECT PROOF Vodo was order grandmaster now, let's see what wookiepedia has to say...

Behind the scenes

* Some fans have come under the belief that Vodo was the Grand Master of the Jedi Order at the time of his death, but there is no canonical source for this.

5. Ahh, here we go....Cay weak? Please. He was of a gifted Qel-Droma line and managed to stand against Ulic for a time.

6. Ahhh, belittling of the old Jedi...Arca also managed to help cleanse the dark side presence from Ossus and Thon confined a dark side prescence....and Hssiss are large, aquatic dark side creatures, look like the big ones in the lake...Was Ooroo weak too? He was only a Cephalapoid. And Thon managed to chase off pirates and kill a dark side creature.....two on Vodo already!

7. Yeah, shame Kun screwed that ritual up, hm? Why didn't he try to fight rather than use a ritual he didn't fully understand? And Palpatine instantly possessed Jeng Droga after JEng's attempted suicide before heading back to Byss. The Jedi lightside attack on Kun didn't start until he began his ritual

8. Considering he'll simply dodge/reflect/block....And insta kill? How'll that happen when Luke is able to block Sith attacks designed to kill an opponent instantly that Palpatine already learned? What'll Kun do when Palpatine chars him to a crisp, or tears him apart with a force storm? How'll Kun stop the guy who learned far more than he ever did? Who trained with the Ancient Sith spirits, absorbed a Sith holocron, proved himself capable of sucking the life from millions and destroying fleets, surviving beyond death without a ritual...What did Kun know from the Ancients now? Did he learn with Marka and the like on Korriban? Was he INVITED to join them? Thought not. Please now, we're calling ME a fanboy?

Lord Darkstar
First Lightsnake, I thought we already talked about Agen, Saesee and Kit on MSN. My recollection of this was that you agreed that they were not that good.

Also, about Sidious, again we talked about this on MSN, and here is a direct quote from what you said (I am the one going by the name of 'Bryton'):

Bryton says:
So if he could not have learned it all, and had less time to practise, then how can he win?

For a pittance, I banned all kindness from my heart...-Marou Delac says:
Got me, but he did

You yourself have said that you did not know how Sidious could have learned everything. And sure we were talking about Marka, but the point that Sidious did not know everything still applies here.

About becoming one with the force, again we talked about this on MSN, and I will use the same example here. Qui-Gon. He did not focuses before he died, infact he did not even know of the move. He rediscovered it, another example of the jedi loosing knowledge. And if the jedi lost knowledge, why would the sith not. They had there entire empire torn apart, yet they did not loose knowledge?

IKC
1) Uh huh... as there was clear exertion on Dooku's part to lock with Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC. Again: were they stalemated or not? Is Mace Windu stalemated with Jango Fett when he grimaces while blocking Fett's shots? For the final time, you have no proof that it was a stalemate. You're making it up.

2) Of course she wasn't, but by your standards she was mysteriously "preparing for death" because she knew she was dying, etc etc.

This is called demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. You have no proof that such a technique (which nobody knew existed until the PT movies, well after TOTJ was written) requires preparation, and your very premise (that Vodo gave up) is fallacious. You lose this point.

3) Actually, Crado idolized Exar Kun until his death. It wasn't slavery at all; Crado apparently believed Kun could do no wrong. And cute how you skirted the real point: Kun tossed Sylvar around like the comparative weakling she was. Ergo, she couldn't possibly stand up to him.

Proof that he toyed with Vodo is in the above scans.

Look at these scans, by the way, and tell me how Odan-Urr isn't experienced in combat.

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg

Yes, Ood managed to clash sabers with Kun for one whole panel before getting slapped by a Massassi and then declaring that "Combat is not my skill, Exar Kun..." My word, he's practically a sabergod!

And got any evidence that Ood is older than Odan? Odan is at least a thousand years old by the time of the Sith War.

The point is, no other Jedi Masters are shown on Coruscant throughout the entire series, except for Vodo. Vodo, who put up the best fight against Exar Kun out of all of them. Vodo, who didn't get pwned by a droid while lecturing his student about surprise attacks. Vodo, who is good friends with the chancellor of the Republic. Vodo, who has such confidence in himself and the Light Side that he confronts with the intent to stop the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a staff.

And yes, Kun would kill them all. Here you go.

That was, of course, before I pointed out that he could shoot massive blasts from his hands.

4) Such a great temple probably didn't exist since Ossus was at the time the Jedi world. You know, where Ood sat on his ass and gave Ulic Qel-Droma a book. At least Odan was actually teaching still, and presided over the Jedi congregation on Deneba.

5) Ooh yes, he sure stood up to Ulic. What a great job he did, getting his arm lopped off and soon after getting killed. Cay and Crado were spineless worms, but at least Crado got something accomplished.

6) What dark side presence was this, given that Ossus was founded as the Jedi world 800 years before Arca was even born? Unless you mean Onderon, and even if you did you'd still be wrong. Nadd's spirit, according to the narration, "has managed to confound the great old Jedi. On Onderon, under Arca's very nose, Nadd has instructed two young aristocrats, Satal Keto and Aleema..."

Boy, that Arca was competant.

And Thon only managed to contain the unnamed dark side creatures to a lake until, according to the omniscient narrator, "they are released by a new power." Under Thon's nose, the Sith-possessed Oss Willum released the beasts to attack Thon, Sylvar, Nomi, and Vima. It wasn't a well thought-out plan, but it certainly doesn't make Thon the grandmaster because he defeated a few beasts with the help of the rage-prone Sylvar and the battle meditation prodigy Nomi.

7) Prove that it was his mistake and not the Jedi attack. You can't, because no such proof exists. Oh, and do you really want to know why he didn't try to fight?

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4144/jediattack7ne.th.jpg

Only because all the Jedi in the galaxy showed up above his place. And the attack occured in the panel directly after this one.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/580/nofeartheend6xg.th.jpg

Ergo, the "wall" of light is more likely the reason for Kun's imprisonment than any mistake on Kun's part, of which there is no evidence in the comic.

8) Yeah, Sidious is going to be dodging and reflecting these...

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

And he's somehow going to be able to overcome an attack from one of the greatest lightsaber wielders of all time when Mace Windu put him on his ass and later Luke Skywalker could disarm him. Oh sure.

And he'll be able to mysteriously block an instakill attack that Odan-Urr, a thousand year old Jedi that participated in making the Ancient Sith extinct, couldn't resist.

Good to know you have your mind made up. Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by IKC
1) Uh huh... as there was clear exertion on Dooku's part to lock with Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC. Again: were they stalemated or not? Is Mace Windu stalemated with Jango Fett when he grimaces while blocking Fett's shots? For the final time, you have no proof that it was a stalemate. You're making it up.

2) Of course she wasn't, but by your standards she was mysteriously "preparing for death" because she knew she was dying, etc etc.

This is called demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. You have no proof that such a technique (which nobody knew existed until the PT movies, well after TOTJ was written) requires preparation, and your very premise (that Vodo gave up) is fallacious. You lose this point.

3) Actually, Crado idolized Exar Kun until his death. It wasn't slavery at all; Crado apparently believed Kun could do no wrong. And cute how you skirted the real point: Kun tossed Sylvar around like the comparative weakling she was. Ergo, she couldn't possibly stand up to him.

Proof that he toyed with Vodo is in the above scans.

Look at these scans, by the way, and tell me how Odan-Urr isn't experienced in combat.

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg

Yes, Ood managed to clash sabers with Kun for one whole panel before getting slapped by a Massassi and then declaring that "Combat is not my skill, Exar Kun..." My word, he's practically a sabergod!

And got any evidence that Ood is older than Odan? Odan is at least a thousand years old by the time of the Sith War.

The point is, no other Jedi Masters are shown on Coruscant throughout the entire series, except for Vodo. Vodo, who put up the best fight against Exar Kun out of all of them. Vodo, who didn't get pwned by a droid while lecturing his student about surprise attacks. Vodo, who is good friends with the chancellor of the Republic. Vodo, who has such confidence in himself and the Light Side that he confronts with the intent to stop the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a staff.

And yes, Kun would kill them all. Here you go.

That was, of course, before I pointed out that he could shoot massive blasts from his hands.

4) Such a great temple probably didn't exist since Ossus was at the time the Jedi world. You know, where Ood sat on his ass and gave Ulic Qel-Droma a book. At least Odan was actually teaching still, and presided over the Jedi congregation on Deneba.

5) Ooh yes, he sure stood up to Ulic. What a great job he did, getting his arm lopped off and soon after getting killed. Cay and Crado were spineless worms, but at least Crado got something accomplished.

6) What dark side presence was this, given that Ossus was founded as the Jedi world 800 years before Arca was even born? Unless you mean Onderon, and even if you did you'd still be wrong. Nadd's spirit, according to the narration, "has managed to confound the great old Jedi. On Onderon, under Arca's very nose, Nadd has instructed two young aristocrats, Satal Keto and Aleema..."

Boy, that Arca was competant.

And Thon only managed to contain the unnamed dark side creatures to a lake until, according to the omniscient narrator, "they are released by a new power." Under Thon's nose, the Sith-possessed Oss Willum released the beasts to attack Thon, Sylvar, Nomi, and Vima. It wasn't a well thought-out plan, but it certainly doesn't make Thon the grandmaster because he defeated a few beasts with the help of the rage-prone Sylvar and the battle meditation prodigy Nomi.

7) Prove that it was his mistake and not the Jedi attack. You can't, because no such proof exists. Oh, and do you really want to know why he didn't try to fight?

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Only because all the Jedi in the galaxy showed up above his place. And the attack occured in the panel directly after this one.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/580/nofeartheend6xg.th.jpg

Ergo, the "wall" of light is more likely the reason for Kun's imprisonment than any mistake on Kun's part, of which there is no evidence in the comic.

8) Yeah, Sidious is going to be dodging and reflecting these...

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
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And he's somehow going to be able to overcome an attack from one of the greatest lightsaber wielders of all time when Mace Windu put him on his ass and later Luke Skywalker could disarm him. Oh sure.

And he'll be able to mysteriously block an instakill attack that Odan-Urr, a thousand year old Jedi that participated in making the Ancient Sith extinct, couldn't resist.

Good to know you have your mind made up. Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

1. *Yawn* Explain the clear look of exertion on Kun's face on two panels of a deadlock before he pulls out his trump card. yOur turn for proof, buddy boy.

2. Yeah, yeah, yeah....see, it's called 'after the fact.' Lucas decided something, it happened. Nomi herself said in redemption only a true Jedi master could do it. Name one time a Jedi did it without preparing themself for death. And explain Vodo's final words.

3. OH, gee a FORCE PUSH proves how weak someone is, especially when you force push a berserker. Now look who skirted a point? Could sylvar be crying over what she believes is her beloved enslaved and her master dead? Why, no, of course not!

5. Oh, wow! ODan-Urr talking about a nonviolent force technique that I just said he was proficient in! That equates to combat or offensive ability....how?

6. Proof Vodo was grand master. Of COURSe he'd know Kun best: He trained him. And wow, Kun fought....two people? One of whom was ancient and on the brink of death as it was, one of who knew the real fight would be fought later on and one of whom who he didn't even fight personally, GREAT record! And Ood blocked Kun's double sided blade...that's a better record than Vodo already. Arca cleansed Onderon, Arca wiped out the Lorell raiders...Arca fought in the Droid Rebellion, among others....he's a few up on Vodo already who showed NO judgement with Kun and screwed up on every conceivable level. And considering Coruscant wasn't the seat of the Jedi government then...and ignoring how Cay wasn't trying to truly fight Ulic...

7. Would that be before or after Arca was occupied with King Ommin and the small uprising of Naddists, now?

8. One Hsiss and a pirate attack and Thon's got more skill to his name than Vodo ever showed.

9. NOW who's the liar? That panel of the Jedi sending teir powers to Yavin is RIGHT after Kun screams his spirit will live forever

10. Quote: If I fail you will be a last surprise for them. but perhaps I won't fail. The Sith secrets opens doorways I don't necessarily understand etc etc etc." I'd say combination of the wall of light and his ineptitude.

11. Prove Sidious can't now. He's shown he's extremely fast before, much smarter than Kun...proof Kun was 'one of the greatest saber wielders of all time?' Gee, such a pity being bested by Mace Windu, described as one of the greatest swordsman of the Jedi ever to live AND Luke "most powerful Jedi ever being joined with Leia and unborn Anakin" Skywalker. And considering Luke learned from sidious and the holocron how to block instant kills, and force chokes, not to mention Odann was ancient and near death as was...and Sidious has used force powers to far greater levels than Kun ever showed, has gotten far better teachings and artifacts...

And Darkstar: I admitted I didn't know HOW he did it...they doesn't change the fact he did.

Kun fanboys....at least Sidious has evidence for his power

IKC
1) Don't skirt the questions. Was Dooku stalemated against either Anakin or Obi-Wan in AOTC because he shows clear exertion? Was Mace stalemated against Jango because he grimaces, thereby showing exertion?

Answer to both? Hell no. A grimace is not proof of a stalemate.

QED.

2) You're skirting the issue yet again. I'm going to answer condescendingly, again.

You. Cannot. Prove. That. Preparation. Is. Required.

Ergo, yet again, I believe you're simply making it up because evidence is clearly against you.

This is, again, beside the point. Prove that Vodo gave up or don't answer this point.

3) Yes, a force push does prove how weak someone is when said force user is not surprised and sent careening across a room. Note also how Kun did it so casually, immediately after slaying Vodo. She's an ant to him.

4) I question your literacy. He is speaking not only of the technique but the fact that he became proficient in it in the war against the Ancient Sith. Ergo, Odan-Urr has much combat experience and is not the pushover you'd like him to be because it suits your cause.

You'll note also it was the same "nonviolent" technique that he tried and failed, despite being a master of the power, to use against Exar Kun.

5) Odan-Urr was ancient, but you're making things up by saying he was "on the brink of death." Were he on the brink of death, the dialogue and narration would have indicated such. Indeed, the only thing that would indicate it is Exar Kun's later line to his converts, "He was ancient, and it was his time." Of course, the line was a lie, as was much of what he told them on Ossus.



Are you visually impaired?

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3310/kunvsvodo20mk.th.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7900/kunvsvodo47ob.th.jpg

What in God's name are those, then? You have a strange understanding of physics if you think Kun can strike with both ends of a saber at the same time.



Uh huh... and we assume that Vodo had no participation in these events despite the fact that Vodo is 400 years older than Arca, then? Oh, and what terrific judgement was Arca showing here?

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Wow. Being an obstinate jerk sure worked to quell his curiosity. Good job, Arca! What tremendous judgement, you averted disaster there!

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A few up on Vodo, hm? At least Vodo was slain by somone far above his league in terms of power. Arca gets ironically pwned by a droid because he, like an idiot, stops in the middle of a battle to lecture Ulic. Good job, Arca!

And Nadd survived the destruction of his Naddist cultists and Ommin and roamed freely on Onderon as is evidenced when he visits Ulic while Ulic is examining his artifacts. Ergo, Arca didn't cleanse Onderon.

Oh, so Thon kills a beast (one which he outweighs and is bigger than) with the help of Nomi Sunrider and Sylvar and this makes him greater than Vodo? Let's see about this: Thon trained Nomi and Oss Willum... wow, what great warriors. Vodo trained Exar Kun and Sylvar. I'd say Vodo has a better track record when it comes to producing those kinds of results.

This is, of course, not to mention that Vodo fought in the battle Ulic launched on Coruscant and was there to capture him. I'd say Mandalorians and Tetan warriors are harder to fight off than pirates.

7) Uh, show me where the lie is, exactly? This is exactly as I stated it: Kun says his spirit will live forever, and then the Jedi attack.

8) Good job not providing context for the quote. He speaks to the hulking Massassi and then apparently changes his mind and has all of the Massassi gather at the temple for him to unleash his spirit. You have no evidence that he messed up the ritual, ergo it's more likely that the wall of Light is what caused his isolation.

9) Extremely fast, hm? Is he fast enough to dodge those massive beams that Kun can shoot repeatedly with no warmup or recharge time? I think not. Is he good enough to block an instakill attack that a thousand-year-old Jedi Master (who is not on the brink of death, but you'd like him to be) who fought against the ancient Sith couldn't avoid?

And yes, Sidious was bested by Windu. And? I submit Kun would put Windu on his ass, especially since he too uses a unique style that was not passed on to anyone else. Windu would be completely unprepared for it.

And Sidious getting bested by DE Luke isn't something to be proud of. You realize this is still Luke "I treat my lightsaber like a baseball bat" Skywalker, right? Have you watched Return of the Jedi recently? Wow, what a sabergod Sidious is, getting bested by a boy with barely ten years under his belt.



Got any proof for this? I hardly think IQ is mentioned in the narration.



Yeah, alright. I'm sure they, in the actual story, refer to techniques as "instant kills." Proof?

By the way, initiates were taught in the old Jedi order how to resist another Jedi's telekinesis. Big accomplishment for Luke there, learning it after ten or so years.



You have no proof for this, I point out again.



Oh really? And where did he find all these artifacts 5000 years after the Empire collapsed? You seem to forget that Kun acquired at least three troves of information in the form of a relatively-unplundered Korriban, Nadd's tomb, and Sadow's stronghold.

Got any proof that Sidious' powers were greater than Kun's, by the way? Kun seems to use them with far greater ease, greater rapidity, and with greater effectiveness. Say what you will, but Kun wasn't benchpressed into a reactor core by a one-armed cyborg or ripped apart by his own force techniques.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Lightsnake
First of all, put the fangs away. You're acting like nothing but a belligerant jerk and it's getting annoying.

1. Did Dooku have to pull out a second lightsaber and was he locked with them before doing so, showing clear exertion DURING and not after the fight?

2. Prove it;s not now. Evidence? On my side. and it's called a 'technique.' And Qu Rahn says he prepared for death to return.

3. Great, he defeated Vodo who'd never shown himself to be any great fighter, that's great. Your little 'Grandmaster' rumor was debunked, so what does Vodo have to his name? Complete incompetence and nothing but losses. And please, was Sedriss weak? He was force pushed. Was Obi-wan weak? He was force pushed.

4. Wow! We only saw Odann do NOTHING in the Hyperspace war but fail with battle meditation and never use his saber once! Name one time he did it in the war against the Ancient Sith! In the moments he was completely USELESS in the entire war!

5. Read The Tales of the JEdi Companion.

6. Wow, Exar never comes close to overpowering Vodo till he uses that double bladed saber!

7. You mean tell him you won't help him as opposed to the guy who's known him since....what, birth? And yep, arca was stupid there....great lot the OJO's turning out to be thus far.

8. And Thon tore the Hsiss's throat out with no aid, Nomi and Sylvar were busy. And considering Nomi was hailed as one of the greatest Jedi of her time...not to mention Nomi and Vodo got Ulic together, and considering Nomi's already shown she was capable of blocking Ulic on her own..

9. And his decision of "If I fail etc etc." He didn't 'change his mind' he decided to use that already.

10. OR you can just kill Kun by sucking out his life, lightning him into next week or simply match him with one of your artifacts. And name one Ancient Sith Lord Odann ever engaged in combat. Name....ANY Sith Odann engaged in combat.

11. Windu aLSO used a unique style...and Kun, survey says uses....Makashi. Ok then.

12. You mean the boy who'd already shown himself to display more power than most JEdi of....ANY era? Created a massive fleet of an illusion? Check. Rebuilds a castle from the Force? Check. Eases the landing of a star destroyer? Only the force? Check. Crushes an AT AT's head with the force? Check. Finds relics dating back to the founding of the Jedi order? Check. And Oh, lord, how dare Luke without CGI!

13. Sidious: Took over Republic, destroyed Jedi Order
Kun: tricked by Padawans.

14. "It's an ancient Sith technique designed to kill an opponent instantly. The holocron showed me how to block it."
This, along with blocking sedriss and Goir's force choke earlier. Telekenisis is a bit different from force choke, too.

15. Artifacts hunted down religiously, taken from the Jedi temple, from traders who had no idesa what they had, from the deepest recesses of Korriban, learned from the Ancients themselves...

And please, Kun didn't spend any more than a few hours in Nadd's tomb, who had nothing that wasn't on Yavin, and on Korriban? What'd he get there exactly?

No, Kun was only trapped by a pack of Padawans and double crossed by Ulic who he decided would be a GRAND idea to lead the army after numerous mess ups.

Unlike Kun, Sidious never requires an artifact to enhance his power or do anything. When he does something he does it and never shows exertion. Drains millions of people? force lightnings enough to kill over fifty people and never sweat? Destroy a fleet? Servant able to match Ood Bnar drawing up massive energy from Ossus?

Kun's....destroyed a temple wall.

Whine all you want about fanboyism, but your Kun worship doesn't give you much credibility

IKC
Ah yes, pointing out the fact that you're a frequent liar and Sidious fanboy makes me a belligerant jerk. Lightsnake: it isn't slander if it's true.

1) Prove. Up. Dooku showed exertion during the fight. As did Mace when blocking Jango's shots. Answer the questions: Were they stalemated or not?

I'll just repost:



2) Prove it's not? Great debating skills, Lightsnake! Ask your opponent to prove a negative!

Come back to this point when you can prove it. You're destroyed here.

(By the way, you're referencing Qu Rahn from Jedi Knight? A game where the main character essentially finds a lightsaber in a garage, and somehow that makes him a Jedi?)

3) Oh, Vodo seems to think otherwise given that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick. Nor has the Grandmaster assertion been defeated, since all of your supposed alternatives have been "debunked" far more effectively.

And yes, both of them were weak in comparison to their opponents. Unless you actually think that Obi-Wan is in the same league as Dooku...

4) Wow! You have limited reading comprehension! Read the dialogue again where Odan-Urr is telling Nomi about how he participated in making the Sith extinct when the Republic and Jedi went into their territory.

Read his dialogue when he tells how he became proficient in blocking dark siders from the Force. Oh no, he must not have faced Sith Lords, because Sidious is indirectly linked to this point!

5) For...what? Got any scans?

6) "OMG, DOOKU NEVER COMES CLOSE TO OVERPOWERING ANAKIN UNTIL HE CUTS HIS ARM OFF AT THE ELBOW!"

The above was your logic in another context.

7) Actually, those scans indicated that Arca was an obstinate old fool with no understanding of basic human nature. He told Kun what he couldn't do, thereby reinforcing Kun's resolve to do it. He knew that Kun was heading into dangerous territory for himself and others yet did precisely zilch to stop it.

8) You need to read the narration. It clearly states that the battle turns when Nomi uses her battle meditation on them. This is not to mention that Sylvar can be reasonably formidible when she gives into rage, as she frequently does.

But big deal. One unnamed dark side creature, that Thon outclasses in size, intelligence, and weight. What an accomplishment! It's almost like a bulldog against a chihuahua!

I note you didn't even answer the fact that Vodo was in the battle for Coruscant. *golf clap*

Selectiveness is deadly in a debate.

9) Actually, he said, "if my plans fail." Then he seems to get an idea and tells the two presumed leaders of the massassi to gather all (not "all but one"wink of the massassi for the ritual. QED.

10) Uh huh, and this can be done faster than Kun can blast him instantly how? Oh, and here I thought you consistently argued that Sidious did everything without artifacts!

Regarding the Odan point, to quote Illustrious: "Absence of proof is not proof of absence."

And we have plenty of proof in the form of his dialogue. It is obvious he stripped Sith lords of the Force in the past.

QED.

11) Please tell me how in God's name Kun could have used Makashi, a fencing style, with a short-hilted double-bladed saber?

Nor do his strikes in the comic resemble in any way those of Makashi. It was a unique style, get over it.

12) Already eh? Ooh, a massive fleet of an illusion. Somewhat like the weakling Aleema Keto did consistantly, right?

And watch ROTJ again, I told you. Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker wouldn't hold a candle to the Jedi of old in a saber fight.

13) I can be selective too, watch!

Sidious: Benchpressed into a reactor by a one-handed cyborg, hand sliced off by a neophyte saber user, ripped apart by his own force technique, shot in the back by Han Solo.

Exar Kun: Overpowered every singular opponent he came across in The Sith War, was only defeated with the combined strength of all the Jedi in the galaxy.

Accomplishments are really irrelevant though, this is a fight.

14) Ooh, an ancient Sith technique. Note that it doesn't use the word the! And reference or, preferably, scan that quote. You cannot prove that Kun's attack is blockable, especially since he has at least two amulets with which to focus his power.

And you actually think force choke is a somehow different than simple telekinesis? Really, are you that desperate for Sidious to win? Your capacity to be ridiculous astounds me.

15) And Kun's artifacts taken directly from the source at Nadd's tomb, Korriban, and Sadow's hoard at Yavin IV. You seem to forget that Sadow had practically everything underneath the temples, guarded by his massassi and other beasts.

Anyway, what do you think was written on Nadd's scrolls, I ask again? What do you think those other artifacts strewn around the room even were?

"No, Sidious was only chucked into a bottomless pit by a cripple, etc etc."

Irrelevant, especially when you consider that after four thousand years of isolation Kun was driven quite mad by the Jedi Academy Trilogy.

I detect an inconsistency!





You're pathetic. Anyway, to answer that, prove that Kun requires his amulet to do anything. Then tell me how it's relevant because Kun isn't fighting naked!




...with blasts that apparently required little to no effort on his part, which he could do repeatedly without pausing. Kun's feats are still more impressive and far more useful in a fight.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Dark Aristokrat
Damn.

QED.

Lightsnake
Janus....stop coming into threads in the middle of debates and continuously saying QED.

1. Please, Nai cna attest to the fact I admit when I'm wrong. And a grimace isn't proof of a stalemate....gritting one's teeth while locking blades before stepping back and using a trump card is.

2. Books were written on Dark Forces, buddy boy. Now, every scrap of evidence shows you need to prepare to ebcome a ghost...You have...."But Kun was so STROOOOONG! His ponyrail could change the fabric of time!" According to official word, Obi-wan gave up and prepared to join the force. Name a single time a force user who vanished didn't prepare for death. Daehsra'Cor in NJO anyone?

3. "Oh, but VOdo was grandmaster of the Order"
Behind the scenes

* Some fans have come under the belief that Vodo was the Grand Master of the Jedi Order at the time of his death, but there is no canonical source for this.
No canon source? What's that? It's all fan conjecture!?
Well, seems you've been caught in a lie now.

4. Read the Fall of the Sith Empire. Odan Urr didn't do a damn thing to help in the battle. Not a goddamn thing. Oh, and he says he became proficient in the technique in those DAYS, not that he used it in the war.

5. To see Odann was near death. And it's not a comic, it's a large sourcebook.

6. If Dooku is shown matching Anakin point for point, the two lock together, Dooku showing exertion, than Dooku pulls otu a trump card to beat him....

7. Yep, that's Arca for you. Wow, what a bunch of winners, Kun came from.

8. You mean he sent the night beast down? Please, we've seen him again. The entire point was if he screwed up, when the Jedi came down, the night beast would be waiting. He'd already decided to suck the life from the MAssassi. Quote: "I can fight in other ways with the Sith knowledge! I can survive!"

9. What'd Vodo....DO in the battle of Coruscant? Crouched by the Chancellor....that was really it. Oh, wait I forgot, he and Nomi, whi'd shown herself capable of finishing Ulic with the wall of light restrain Ulic...and that one dark side beast is still more than Vodo has to his name

10. Name one time Kun prefers to 'just blast' an actual opponent. He only did it once when survival depended on it. In all other cases, he preferred smaller scale techniques. And draining'd be instantaneous. Proof of 'stripping Sith Lords of the Force' now.

11. "During the time of the Clone Wars and many centuries preceding it, the Jedi Order seldom practiced this technique. There was, if at all, so little lightsaber-to-lightsaber and melee combat involved in a Jedi's life that many in the Order didn't bother to teach and/or learn it as it was thought impractical. During this era, Niman and Ataru were the more popular fighting forms being taught and learned. Makashi, however, was very common during the younger years of the order, before the advent of blasters, when melee weapons were abundant. Sith lord Exar Kun, for example, was a Form II master at his time. To most Jedi, Makashi did not seem to have much use; however, to a Sith or Dark Jedi, learning and mastering Makashi would have been a goal."
Kun was a Makashi user. Deal with it.

12. And just six years later, Luke cleaves his way through a small army of Dark Jedi. How dare Luke not fight with CGI. Kun defeated every opponent in the Sith war? Wow! TWO PEOPLE! And not counting his complete failure to beat Ulic.

13. "It's a deadly sith technique, but the holocron showed me how to block it." Force choke works a liiiiittle different than a force push. Are you really so desperate for Kun to win?

14. what was written in Nadd's scrolls? And Nadd knew....what? He was never taught anything truly great by Sadow, hence him killing Sadow out of rage.

15. Learn to read. I said Palpatine never needed artifacts to do what he did, but he had them in abundance.

OMG, Kun did the equivalent of FIRING A GUN! Palpatine destroyed a fleet. With no amulet. With no effort. Considering Exar was a dead mean before he got the amulet...

Fine, since achievments aren't relevent...name one thing, just one, that Kun did that equals Sidious's feats. Prove his amulet would kill Sidious, prove that Kun, in his already supreme arrogance that he never uses the same thing again-it only cost him his hand after all- would use it instantly.

Name one way Kun would be able to counter a drain that sucked life and energy out of millions of people. Or force lightning that charred fifty people into a crisp. Or anything Kun's done that matches Darth Sidious whatsoever. He never used the amulet in such a way again during his fights, why not now? If he actually used it against a sentient, powerful opponent, how would it work? Considering Sidious has more knowledge of the Ancient Sith than Exar could ever hope to gain....Exar's knowledge stopped at Sadow. Sidious had direct training from and with Marka and his predecessors. Not to mention he unlocked the secrets of the force from a holocron, and absorbed the power of a Sith holocron.

In the time it takes for Kun to lift his hand to fire, he'll have been torn apart by a force storm, or a vessel in his brain'll explode. Or his neck will snap. Or he'll be force lightning'd into a crisp. Or he'll fall to the ground as a lifeless husk.

Hmmm, still no mention how a servant who wasn't a fraction as strong as Palpatine managed to match Ood Bnar who was drawing massive energy from Ossus itself

And open the DE and Dark Side sourcebooks, read about Sidious...and then tell me how Kun would ever stand a chance. C'mon, now, when does he use those amulets against an actual opponent when he can fight them luxuriously? He was a bit pressed for time against Odan but all too happy to duel Ulic and Vodo.

Little fanboys can't save Exar

Lord Darkstar
Lightsnake, I saw that you asked for a single jedi that did not prepare to join the force. How about Qui-Gon, he could not have prepared since the ability to do so was forgetten, yet he became one with the force.

Lord Darkstar
Also Lightsnake, if, as you say, Sidious had items, why would he not use them? It would be completly stupid not to use them

Oh and if you say that he did not need them, while there is no proof that Kun needed it either. It just makes it easier. If Sidious was smart, he would have used them because it would make it easier in combat, not using them would be dumb.

Lightsnake
We don't know if Qui-Gon became a Force Ghost. All we know is he learned something from the Whills and his spirit found its way back.

Sidious didn't use them because of one reason:
He didn't need them. Moreover, we know Kun needed it because until he put the thing on, he was about to be munched by the Leviathan

Darth Faunus
That's called becoming a 'ghost' Lightsnake. How else would he have retained his identity after becoming one with the Force?

And Kun may or may not have needed the amulet. Fact is, he'd only just awakened himself to the Dark Side, and his anger 'doubled the power of the amulet'. The item strengthened him, yes, but did so by rechanneling his own power. Technically, he strengthened it.

Lord Darkstar
Also Lightsnake, that arguement about Sidious not using the amulets because he didn't need to is somewhat dumb to be frank with you. If he had them and did not use them then he is missing several brain cells because why would you not make it easier to use the force, especially when you know you are in battle. Again, I have said this before, but I do not need a car to go to school, I can walk, but it is easier to use the car. Same thing here. Either Sidious was stupid in not using the amulets, or he did not have them

Dark Aristokrat
QED.

No, really... There's a LOT wrong with the logic your presenting, and the doublestandards you're issuing. IKC has proven up with scans and very solid logic, whereas you have given us a lot of one-sided opinions on events and stacked the deck in Sidious' favor without proving any of it.

IKC

Sorgo
^ That was such a kick ass post, IKC.

Dark Aristokrat
Indeed.

Illustrious
Didn't I define "proof" for you earlier, Lightsnake?

Lord Darkstar
Yeah that was a good one

EDIT: sorry that was to what Janus and Sorgo said about IKC's post

w00t2112
hahaha, this is funny. lightsnake loses in proving NJO luke is stronger than ragnos, DE sidious as welll he fails, and now this xD hmmm lightsnake learn to respect the ancients and stop looking at long desrciptions of how sidious and luke pwn, yes they're good, but just because they have much more info bout them, doesnt make them stronger that kun or ragnos

Lightsnake
1. what do you call two panels of being locked together, with teeth gritteed BEFORE stepping back and pulling out a trump?

2. Prove that it's necessary? Fine: The NEw Rebellion, second to last chapter. We see Luke prepare for death to become a Force Ghost. Just before Kueller is about to strike him down. Give or take a chapter, but I digress. Come on, how isn;t it necessary when every last one who vanishes is shown to prepare for death.
Vodo: You and I will fight again, maybe not for a long time
Is Vodo so abysmally stupid he thinks Kun isn't going to kill him there? because 4000 years later! "You are defeated at last!"
I'm not saying he threw the entire fight, that would be idiotic: Just that he gave up when it was clear he couldn't win and knew he had more part to play when he was dead

3. Yeah, you keep whining about so called lies...I admitted I was wrong about the entirety of the Massassi being destroyed...of course if we're playing the 'wrong info= lying game' I guess you'd better prove up on Vodo being grandmaster of the order

4. You mean when the Tetans themselves did the genocide and the ENTIRE SITH FLEET WAS EXTERMINATED! We saw ODan fight the Hyperspace war and he did nothing but cry over Ooroo.

5. Fine, I'll withdraw the point due to lack of being able to scan the damn thing.

6. A trump card would be if he yanked out another saber and used it to cut Anakin's arm.

7. Yes, Vodo only decides the following: Yanks away any Sith teachings on Exar, KNOWING he's more curious. Shrugs off the fact Exar just used the dark side, decides to teach Exar violence is bad by beating the hell out of him, knows Exar is behind everything and keeps this info to himself....Decides he 'needs to deal with it on his own' when he and Nomi know that damn wall of light thing...might be a BIT useful...

8. http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Kalgrath
He was mutated in the Massassi isolation chamber. And honestly? He's reading the scrolls, says he can survive, directs Kalgrath to the isolation chamber, says 'maybe he won't fail' etc etc...then says to gather all the Massassi.

9. She'd showed herself capable of restraining him before, as well as showing herself to be the only one capable of defeating Aleema's illusions. She was also described to wield her saber with the skill of a master following Andur's death if my memory serves.

10. His life was in danger, he'd just been tossed the amulets...and Kyp Durron and the padawans killed one in Leviathan as well. When did he use it against Vodo? Or Ulic? Hell, he only fired a blast strong enough to drive Aleema into unconsciousness...it's clear he wanted to kill her when he arrived. We know the flesh on his hand was hideously burned by the power...and considering in DE Sidious fries Leia when she tries to attack him and in Empire Betrayal fries a huge squad of stormies when they blast his drink...And he certainly doesn't need lightning to finish Kun. Kun decided he didn't want to face Sylvar either and had Kalgrath deal with her.

11. Great for them

12. Who said Luke was uber? Just that he obviously didn't suck.

13. Luke also mentions Sith techniques of the sort in NJO...Mara suggests Corran try one on Kyp at one point.

14. NEC states directly Nadd killed Naga. I can provide quote and page number. And Kun's knowledge was limited to Sadow, like I said.

15. So he didn't use them. Point? We know he drained the energy from a Sith holocron already and an idiot from not using them? Having something and not using it when you're already strong enough to wipe out FLEETS...

16. ODan capable of blocking Sith Lords from the Force? Which is why Kun was left broken and desolate? He froze the Senate? Good for him: we know Sidious drained the life from Byss. And Sadow the SECOND most powerful Sith of the Golden Age? He already showed himself an equal of Ludo and I'd put Simus, Adas, Tulak....that gang well above him.

17. Ahhh, here we go...no mention of how strong Luke proved himself in DE....no mention of how Sidious just conjured up the damn force storm when he wanted to. No mention of how the lightning Sidious used to wipe out a squadron of soldiers was instantaneous. And a man who lost to Mace Windu, described as one of the greatest saber duelists the saber ever produced?
We've seen Sidious destroy fleets and drain people, we've seen him obliterate squadrons of soldiers and never sweat. We've seen him take bodies and keep power as a spirit. Kun's entire lightsaber career consists of four fights:
badmouthing Sylvar.
Brekaing Vodo's stick
Stalemating Ulic
Killing Vodo.

And we never saw Vodo show himself adept in combat any way. We saw him fight twice: Once he lost to a Padawan and at another point he died to a Sith Lord. We've seen the Ancients decide to HELP Sidious, we know they tught Sidious their darkest secrets, we know he unlocked secrets of the Jedi from ancient holocrons, and Sith holocrons dating back to the ancients. If Kun was capable of killing people with waves of his hand, he wouldn't have needed his brainwashed assassins, he'd never have needed to duel Ulic and Vodo, when he saw Sylvar killing his men before he had her dealt with, he could have done for her himself. And oh, yes, no mention to how Ood's final transformation was a natural state in a Neti's life and he was drawing up energy from the core of Ossus itself to fight Sedriss

When Kun destroys a fleet-and if he could, he wouldn't have been screaming in the dark at the end- then perhaps he can measure up

Lightsnake
http://domuspublica.net/index.php/Something%20Wicked%20This%20Way%20Comes%20I

I advise reading this.

Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions that after becoming Galactic Emperor he "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of the Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia," to the point that "he had long ago gone beyond any knowledge to be found in the recovered teachings of the Krath or the Heresiarchs." In The New Essential Guide to Characters, the scribe writes that "Palpatine was known to have studied {the Sorcerers of Tund} prior to their destruction." In Revenge of the Sith it is said that "wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow {Sidious} could send perception"; his own Sith Apprentice, Darth Tyranus, described him as "an event horizon," "absolute, perfect nothingness," "darkness beyond darkness," and "a black hole of the Force." Elsewhere the scribe mentions that he had possession of a Sith holocron, which one Apprentice used to create "Sith speeders, probe droids, and a double-bladed lightsaber"; he obtained still more "restricted holocrons" which contained "the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force" from the Jedi Temple after it was sacked by his newest Apprentice, Darth Vader, and several brigades of clone storm troopers in Revenge of the Sith; of these, Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary says were included "the only known Sith Holocrons, whose very existence is revealed only to a handful of Jedi at the highest levels," which "infernal devices contain teachings of powerful evil" (interestingly, it seems that Sidious was reluctant to share the secrets of the Sith with his Apprentice, Darth Tyranus; Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary notes that "after he left the Jedi Order, Dooku was no longer able to use the Sith Holocron in the Archives," but rather than supplying him with one of his own Sith holocrons, Sidious supplied Tyranus instead with "holographic cells containing mystic teachings of shadowy power"wink. Finally, after the Great Jedi Purge, his agents captured the very old and very wise Master Jedi Ashka Boda, who had in his possession a particularly valuable 600-year-old holocron created Master Jedi Bodo Baas (a descendent of Master Jedi Vodo-Siosk Baas, the Adegan teacher of the infamous Exar Kun, Qel-Droma's Dark Lord of the Sith), according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

Sidious's mastery of the Force was both prodigious and extraordinary, to the point that the Dark Empire Sourcebook states that he "has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines" and that "it is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure." In Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it is said that Sidious's "command of the dark side" was "sufficient to cloak {the Sith Lords} from being sensed by their enemies" when standing just outside the Jedi Temple, or even when face to face with the Jedi High Council, a talent Labyrinth of Evil subsequently identified as "the Quey'tek technique for hiding oneself in the Force." In Episode I Journal: Darth Maul, he demonstrated the ability to "move faster than {Darth Maul's} eye can follow," and wielded a lightsaber with such precision that he traced Maul's outline with its blade so closely that "one flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle" would have killed him; it seems that this ability is only effective in short bursts, as his Force-enhanced speed, agility, and strength in his duel with the four Jedi Masters in his private office in the Senate Office Building in Revenge of the Sith did not demonstrate quite this level of speed. Also in Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi, he demonstrated the use of psychokinesis, empathy, clairvoyance, prescience, and powerful Sith lightning; in Revenge of the Sith he was able to sense that Vader was in danger on the distant Outer Rim world of Mustafar from the Senate Hall on Coruscant in the Core Worlds Region.

. In "Sleight of Hand: The Tale of Mara Jade," he was able to telepathically communicate with his pet assassin and Emperor's Hand, Mara Jade, across interstellar distances (he has only demonstrated the ability to telepathically communicate in this fashion with a handful of persons, all of whom are very close to him, both personally and psychically, and was generally obliged to use the HoloNet for most interstellar communications, including with Vader in The Empire Strikes Back). In The Bacta War, it was speculated that he may have clouded the minds of Coruscant's population so that no one remembered the burial of a Super Star Destroyer in the Imperial City skyline, but it was also speculated that he may have simply ordered the murder of all the witnesses.

n Dark Empire II he demonstrated the ability to "empower" Dark Jedi, allowing his power to "enter {them} and fill {them} with the knowledge and the strength of the dark side of the Force that is {his} to give"; this is clearly the same concept of a "Dark Side Elite" of Dark Jedi "perfectly absorbed into the Emperor's will" that he had written of in the Dark Side Compendium. The Revised Core Rulebook notes that this technique is part of the secret Sith knowledge to which he had access by virtue of his status as the reigning Sith Master, so theoretically any very high-level Sith Lord ought to be able to do the same. Nevertheless it should be noted that the act of "empowering" another in this way actually weakens the Sith Lord in the same respect, so the ability is of relatively limited utility in most circumstances. Palpatine himself apparently found little use for it except as a mental exercise in the Dark Side Compendium, as he made use of it sparingly (if at all) before Dark Empire II; his Emperor's Hands seem to perform the same function without the coincident weakening effect, and he may have created his Dark Side Elite-style Dark Jedi as a stopgap measure to provide himself with useful agents ad interim. Certainly the idea is not new, as he had written of it before the Battle of Endor, and he has possessed the necessary knowledge for a good deal of time longer than that. Similar uses of the Force include the creation of mindless Sentinels enslaved to the wills of the dark side adepts in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, the "empowerment" of the cybernetic Shadow Droid starfighters and the special purpose Darktroopers (elite Imperial Marines, not to be confused with the mobile weapons platform Dark Troopers of Dark Forces or the cybernetic "darktrooper" dragoons of Battlefront) in Dark Empire II.

Lightsnake

Dark Aristokrat
Lightsnake, are you arguing from the Dark Empire Sourcebook from West End Games?. What are you on about?

DE Sourcebook

So you want to argue role playing books as canon now? LMAO

In that case, Ragnos pwns everyone in the series because his force defence is the highest and he has the best sword skills. You just buried Sidious with your hypocrisy.

Lightsnake
RPG stats are declared as gaming material alone.

And read the damn thing, it's hardly just one sourcebook. Story info from the books still applies heavily. Story info aren't gaming stats, which have a disclaimer on them in the sourcebooks anyways. Story info is quite applicable and if you read that little essay, sourcebooks are hardly the only thing in the arsenal

Borbarad

Darth Traya
I say, Lightsnake! You've proved that Sidious takes his knowledge from the Ancient Sith and applies them using inferior knowledge and technique, well done, old chap!

Sorgo
Some people just need to decipher the difference between divine intelligence and Power.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Darth Traya
I say, Lightsnake! You've proved that Sidious takes his knowledge from the Ancient Sith and applies them using inferior knowledge and technique, well done, old chap!

Exactly, nothing to suggest that he is able to do them better than an individual like Ragnos.

Lightsnake
OH, PLEASE:

Sidious's mastery of the Force was both prodigious and extraordinary, to the point that the Dark Empire Sourcebook states that he "has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines" and that "it is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure."

Sounds real inferior. And lost to Mace? Only one of the greatest Jedi swordsmen ever. Lost to DE Luke? With the help of anakin Solo's raw force power in his mother's womb and Leia herself...and yes, I'm sure Kun could beat Luke...despite the fact he was double teaming a surprised Luke with Kyp Durron.

Of course, a few quotes about Ragnos despite the fact he's never shown doing anything...

Illustrious
As I mentioned, it's an obsolete book that was published before the TOTJ, the MAIN SOURCE for Sith powers. Get over it.

Even using that quote, it still mentions "it is believed," which of course would be the case, because 99.99999999999999999999999% of the galaxy has never even see some Sith powers.



Funny how everyone that Sidious lost to is suddenly also put on a pedastal. Ragnos never lost to anybody, Kun never lost to anybody either, what does that say?



More Feat Wars. Cut out the logical fallacy crap.

The one that should be saying "Oh Please" is me, I'm getting tired of your nonsensical bullshit ad nauseum.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
As I mentioned, it's an obsolete book that was published before the TOTJ, the MAIN SOURCE for Sith powers. Get over it.

Even using that quote, it still mentions "it is believed," which of course would be the case, because 99.99999999999999999999999% of the galaxy has never even see some Sith powers.



Funny how everyone that Sidious lost to is suddenly also put on a pedastal. Ragnos never lost to anybody, Kun never lost to anybody either, what does that say?



More Feat Wars. Cut out the logical fallacy crap.

The one that should be saying "Oh Please" is me, I'm getting tired of your nonsensical bullshit ad nauseum.

1. Name a single contradictory statement in DE. Wait, you can't...in fact, TOTJ has to confirm to fit earlier EU, just like everytihng else does. In fact, given recent retcons, TOTJ could be stated as contradictory.

2. Kun lost to a group of Padawans. Mace was outright stated as one of the finest swordsmen ever in the order. Name anyone of reknown Kun ever fought who were even MENTIONED as powerful....he stalemated with a weakened, exhausted, Sith poisoned Ulic. And yes, we know Ragnos fought....one person.

3. Come on, what'd ragnos do to compare?

Illustrious
Since when does later canon have to confirm to fit earlier canon? Not in comicdom, stop changing that parameter around. I can confirm it was the SOURCEBOOK for a D6 RPG. So by this logic, the Baldur's Gate sourcebook is more valid than the Forgotten Realm books themselves. Please.



Yup, put "the most powerful Sith Magician of his time"'s head in a Jar. Considering it was the Golden Age and the high point of Sith power, that's pretty impressive. Kun lost to a group of padawans as a spirit, just like Sidious' spirit lost to... oh wait, his spirit did jack shit.



So by this logic, Ragnos is weaker than Han Solo. Fanboys never stop being amusing.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
Since when does later canon have to confirm to fit earlier canon? Not in comicdom, stop changing that parameter around. I can confirm it was the SOURCEBOOK for a D6 RPG. So by this logic, the Baldur's Gate sourcebook is more valid than the Forgotten Realm books themselves. Please.



Yup, put "the most powerful Sith Magician of his time"'s head in a Jar. Considering it was the Golden Age and the high point of Sith power, that's pretty impressive. Kun lost to a group of padawans as a spirit, just like Sidious' spirit lost to... oh wait, his spirit did jack shit.



So by this logic, Ragnos is weaker than Han Solo. Fanboys never stop being amusing.

1. That applies fully to DE and canon it has influenced, as has the Dark Side Sourcebook, Ultimate Adversaries and the TOTJ Companion sourcebook. Sourcebooks are on the continuity and nothing you say'll change it.

Please! Kun's spirit was stronger than it EVER was in life. It had massive power to draw and focus on, centuries of hibernation. We've seen Sidious's spirit gain life again and suck life out of a planet. And give me a break, you're digging yourself a hole with this Han Solo bull,...was Han a Force user shown to have amazing powers? No? Ok then.

Illustrious
No, you said later canon has to confirm to fit into current canon, that's a downright lie. They do not have to be confirmed. Later canon can supercede earlier canon any day of the week and twice on release day. TOTJ is later canon and cements that the ancient Sith were godlike and titanic entities who's mere remnant artifacts made other people uber.

Besides, that quote itself still doesn't lend itself to the interpretation you are making of it. The ancient Sith alchemy and magic were hardly "known" abilities.



Where is your support for this?

According to your feat wars, because the spirit did not freely blast holes and demolish temples, it is nowhere near as strong as his body. Way to be caught in another instance of hypocrisy.

I was using the Han Solo bull to mock your logic, if you had half an eye to tell.

Han Solo had more demonstrated feats than Ragnos, so he > Ragnos!

Please, you're digging yourself a bigger hole with repeated selective incorporation, as I've just pointed out again.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
No, you said later canon has to confirm to fit into current canon, that's a downright lie. They do not have to be confirmed. Later canon can supercede earlier canon any day of the week and twice on release day. TOTJ is later canon and cements that the ancient Sith were godlike and titanic entities who's mere remnant artifacts made other people uber.

Besides, that quote itself still doesn't lend itself to the interpretation you are making of it. The ancient Sith alchemy and magic were hardly "known" abilities.



Where is your support for this?

According to your feat wars, because the spirit did not freely blast holes and demolish temples, it is nowhere near as strong as his body. Way to be caught in another instance of hypocrisy.

I was using the Han Solo bull to mock your logic, if you had half an eye to tell.

Han Solo had more demonstrated feats than Ragnos, so he > Ragnos!

Please, you're digging yourself a bigger hole with repeated selective incorporation, as I've just pointed out again.

1. And never says they were better than the future generations. Those Gods were crushed by the JEdi on three planets. Many times have later errors been retconned. C'mon, what of DE sourcebooks contradict now?

2. I, Jedi? JA trilogy? He had the temple and millions of souls to focus his power on and draw from.

IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8) http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8536/allmassassi8ot.th.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1724/allmassassi25zp.th.jpg

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.



This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.



Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/828/sylvarpwned2jo.th.jpg

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3039/tottblock8js.th.jpg

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/181/theend7zv.th.jpg

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Illustrious
And "what a god Sidious" got benched into a reactor by a cripple, had his hand hewn, and was shot in the back by a non force sensitive. Your point exactly?

Yes, Naga Sadow's Massassi were beaten by the combined forces of the Republic and the Jedi with some help from Gav and Ludo Kressh.

Like I said, your point, exactly?



So where does it indicate that he was way more powerful in death than in life? How come he didn't use the same techniques he did in TOTJ where he crushed things with just the force? If he had the same power, why didn't he use it and just blast holes through the padawans? Could it be that his spirit was possibly weaker?

So suddenly you extrapolate that because there were other souls there, he was stronger, yet you refuse to do ANY extrapolation for ANYTHING that could damage your pitiful argument?

Bias, fanboyism, logical fallacy, and startling inaccuracies. QED, you're done, sit down.

Dark Aristokrat
And I imagine Lightsnake's reply to those megaposts will be like this...

1. etc. etc.

2. etc. etc.

3. etc. etc.
...

And so on. Nowhere near the size and completely lacking in adherence to logic.

QED, man. Give it up.

Sorgo
Dr. Sorgo is here.

Well... It seems you have an extraordinary case of Fanboyism.

There is a Cure.

It's called.... Wake up and smell the fact that Sidious wasn't the most powerful character around!

It's as if you've fusioned his Intelligence with his Power.

THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!

Sidious used an Army to kill the Jedi Order, he used the Death Star to blow up planets, he used Vader to do his fighting, etc etc.

How could someone you claim is so powerful be so damned cowardly and have so many working for him? Hell, in all the confrontations he got into in the Movies he either lost or stalemated. Mace beat him, Yoda stalemated with him and Vader chucked him in a Generator shaft. He just wasn't that damn powerful! One of the most Manipulative and Intelligent Characters? Of course! But the most powerful? No.

I have been keeping tabs on you and have seen your replies to me. You ALWAYS have an Excuse for him on anything he has lost or anything he has SUCKED at.


Look! You've won an award!

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2885/award5ef.jpg

Go home.

Lightsnake

IKC
*rolls eyes* Yes, let's compare the 4000 year old spirit of Exar Kun driven half-mad by isolation and drained of his power by the eons to the real, flesh-and-blood deal!

As if the opinion of a neophyte like Mara Jade is worth a damn.



Okay. Luke is only shown force choking once. Does that mean he can't do it anymore? OMGWTFLOGIC.



...Because it was two years later and he was trapped, alone? Wow. God forbid Exar Kun has a human response.

Nevermind that it took all the Jedi in the galaxy to trap him in the first place...

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2885/award5ef.jpg

No response to the megapost, as Janus predicted.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Lightsnake

IKC
First prove that the ritual gave him the power of "the souls of an entire race." All that we know for certain is that their sacrifice allowed him to free his soul, nothing more. Ergo, his spirit is weaker than his body and half-insane. And, finally, irrelevant.

Several scenarios...such as? And I was more-so pointing out the logical fallacy in your ridiculous statement. We see Kun use an ability that apparently has no consequences for him and which he does repeatedly, with no warmup or recharge time. And you claim that he's not going to be able to do it in a fight? I call bullshit.



http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg



Prove that it was his mistake. It is more likely that it was the Jedi attack that trapped him.



I direct you to point 8, which you didn't address, above.



...as well as Vodo and Luke, as a four thousand year old, half-mad spirit.



And then was benchpressed into a reactor core by a one-armed cyborg, had his hand cut off by a neophyte farmboy, and was shot in the back by an ex-smuggler. Good job being incompetant, Sidious.

Lightsnake
1. Character guide, Essential chronology....

2. Scenarios it may've been of some use? Against Ulic and Aleema, agains tthe Jedi when they came calling. Considering the things on Yavin already, he could've leveled the playing field, if he was so strong against them....oh, and it may've helped against Vodo, the JEdi in the area and Ood Bnar.

3. All we see from the wall of light is a conflagration. We see Kun saying it opens doors he doesn't fully understand and knowing the price of failure. And oh, yes, how quaint...I directed you to the wiki article on Kalgrath, who after going to the isolation chamber, mutated and was later freed. I also want to see where it's said they needed every Jedi to fight Kun.

4. Vodo and Luke didn't even get in until Exar was trapped and already done for. Hell, they'd set the trap way before and Exar zoomed in for it AFTER having no response to Mara badmouthing him

5. It's funny how you miss the part Sidious wanted the clone to die to take Anakin. He says he'll die and is pleased when Han shoots him so he can enter Anakin. It's ALSO funny how Luke was accesing the force to an incredible degree. Even more amusing that we ignore Exar was trapped by a group of padawans. And Naga Sadow scewed up on every level. And Ludo Kressh was blown up a page after reappearing, and Ragnos was pressed back by Jaden Korr, and the fall of Kaan's Order....but hey, if you can't provide any rebuttal to a statement, an insult works best, hm? That farm boy redeemed a Sith Lord and realized the one way to truly defeat the Emperor. That farm boy rebuilt the Jedi Order. That farm boy saved the galaxy time and time again. Said in DE he was using the force to guide his hand against Palpatine....and we can't really ignore that one handed cyborg was the Chosen One, meant to kill Sidious


:And so there they were, Palpatine the Undying and Luke Skywalker, the twin and opposing demigods. The swirl of their light and darkness was terrifying, a river of power that threatened to sweep away all around it. Luke's vast courage could never hope to overcome the Emperor's vast power; yet the Emperor's egotistical self-love could never hope to match Luke's altruistic self-sacrifice. They battled with more than just their lightsabers; they battled with their whole selves, mind, body, and soul. It was a battle between the Sith Lord who ruled and the Jedi Knight who served; the narcissist who exploited and abused and the philanthropist who defended and comforted; the darkness that chilled and the light that warmed; the abyss that consumed and the love that begot. It was a battle between the darkest evil and the purest good.

Waves of power and emotion poured off of the peerless antagonists, sending shudders through the vast warship from stem to stern. The overwhelming atmosphere of the battle struck the crew almost instantly; some collapsed at their battle stations, insensate and traumatized, while others fell dead where they stood. All throughout the galaxy those who were sensitive to the Force could feel the violence of the clash of titans, could feel the intensity of the test of wills.

IKC
1) More nonsense. The end of TSW and everything after that doesn't make sense then. If he absorbed the force power of thousands of massassi, he would've been a match for the Jedi attack on Yavin IV. Since he wasn't, he didn't.

2)

3) And we know that the wall of light is an imprisoning move they used against Ulic Qel-Droma.



...Did you just have the balls to accuse me of not responding to a point?

Number 8, above, again.



http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

Every living Jedi was there. Whether they needed to be there or not is irrelevant. It's called overwhelming force.

4) Yes, Exar's spirit who is both 4000 years old and therefore weakened and also half-insane from that much isolation.

5) It's funny how you take every shameful failure of Sidious and make excuses for them while at the same time exaggerating the failures of his opponents.

There's nothing to respond to from your quote. It's what we call irrelevant.

IKC
Since you saw fit to accuse me of not responding to a point...

Originally posted by IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8) http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8536/allmassassi8ot.th.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1724/allmassassi25zp.th.jpg

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.



This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.



Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/828/sylvarpwned2jo.th.jpg

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3039/tottblock8js.th.jpg

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

IKC
Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/181/theend7zv.th.jpg

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Well. Have fun.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by IKC
1) More nonsense. The end of TSW and everything after that doesn't make sense then. If he absorbed the force power of thousands of massassi, he would've been a match for the Jedi attack on Yavin IV. Since he wasn't, he didn't.

2)

3) And we know that the wall of light is an imprisoning move they used against Ulic Qel-Droma.



...Did you just have the balls to accuse me of not responding to a point?

Number 8, above, again.



http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

Every living Jedi was there. Whether they needed to be there or not is irrelevant. It's called overwhelming force.

4) Yes, Exar's spirit who is both 4000 years old and therefore weakened and also half-insane from that much isolation.

5) It's funny how you take every shameful failure of Sidious and make excuses for them while at the same time exaggerating the failures of his opponents.

There's nothing to respond to from your quote. It's what we call irrelevant.

1. Except *GAAAAASP!* It was for the actual ritual of freeing his body and ended with him as a spirit since his physical body would've been burned to cinders anyways.

2. And what they did against Ulic would've done reeeeal nice agains tKun. Would've won the 'War'

3. Explain the Character Guide and the Wiki article. Kun sent Kalgrath to the Isolation chamber. He left as the Night Beast. What was that about lying now, Kunite?

4. Yep. And notice Kun, who could fire numerous blasts with numerous items couldn't deal with them...why wasn't he blasting them, using his creatures and items? Proof Kun's spirit was weakned. In I, Jedi, it was stated he had the power of his temple to focus on long after...the same book where he's shot down completely.

5. When Kun had a Chosen One created to destroy him and the full force of Jedi throughout the eons along with the full strength of the Force turned on him, we'll talk

Little fanboys can't save your precious little Exar. He wa

Lightsnake

IKC
1) Query: How in God's name would Kun's body have been burned to death when the wildfire raging inside could not possibly have gone into a stone temple?

Answer: It couldn't.

Secondly, the ritual was designed to free his spirit, fool.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/580/nofeartheend6xg.th.jpg

2) And it's exactly what they tried and it worked, in a different way, trapping him on the moon rather than merely blind and deaf to the Force in his body.

3) The second we use a Wiki article in debates, I'll let you know. Point 8, above.

4) Indeed, and this would lead a person led by logic and reason to believe that he couldn't because his spirit is weaker than his physical body.

5) The Chosen One was created to destroy the sith, not Palpatine specifically. With EU, that becomes a moot plotline.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

IKC
Originally posted by IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8) http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8536/allmassassi8ot.th.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1724/allmassassi25zp.th.jpg

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.



This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.



Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/828/sylvarpwned2jo.th.jpg

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3039/tottblock8js.th.jpg

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

IKC
Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/181/theend7zv.th.jpg

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by IKC
1) Query: How in God's name would Kun's body have been burned to death when the wildfire raging inside could not possibly have gone into a stone temple?

Answer: It couldn't.

Secondly, the ritual was designed to free his spirit, fool.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/580/nofeartheend6xg.th.jpg

2) And it's exactly what they tried and it worked, in a different way, trapping him on the moon rather than merely blind and deaf to the Force in his body.

3) The second we use a Wiki article in debates, I'll let you know. Point 8, above.

4) Indeed, and this would lead a person led by logic and reason to believe that he couldn't because his spirit is weaker than his physical body.

5) The Chosen One was created to destroy the sith, not Palpatine specifically. With EU, that becomes a moot plotline.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

1. We see the flames cover the temple as well. And the ritual was designed to free his spirit....with the life energy of all the Massassi, not to mention his temple with a focal point as his power.

2. Would've helped a lot with Vodo and Nomi:? And Kun's spirit was rather in tune with the force

3. Please, Guide to Characters? "Kun posted a Night Beast as a guard"? Kalgrath from 'Classic Star Wars?' If wiki-accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica- is putting up false info, it'd be declared such and changed. And the ritual was designed to FREE his spirit from the CHAINS of his physical body. I don't see him grabbing Corran and hurling him around when he was alive, or melting stone.

4. And who was the Sith at the time? Oh yes, Palpatine....now, using a conditional...

4. The same logic and reasoning that says killing a leviathan when a group of padawans did the same is something greater than ripping a fleet to bits?

IKC
1) We see the flames cover the temple on which was vegetation, yes. We do not see the flames go inside the temple.

What in God's name kind of rock do you think Kun made his temples out of? It's not some mysterious flammable stone. Kun would've been quite alright inside.

2) What in God's name are you talking about?

3) Please, actual source material?

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8536/allmassassi8ot.th.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1724/allmassassi25zp.th.jpg

Big, unnamed f'in massassi.

And the ritual was designed to free him from his body, yes. But as spirits, force users lose power, especially over time. Evidence: Obi-Wan

5 (learn to number, you're out of order)) No, the Sith is an organization. For all this vaunted talk of the prophecy, if Palpatine ate it before, say, Maul, Anakin would've been destined to kill him and not your beloved Sidious. QED.

4) Again, the creature is a sith wyrm and did these padawans do it by shooting giant energy blasts from their hands with no effort and no consequences? I think not.

IKC
Originally posted by IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8) http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8536/allmassassi8ot.th.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1724/allmassassi25zp.th.jpg

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.



This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.



Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/828/sylvarpwned2jo.th.jpg

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3039/tottblock8js.th.jpg

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

IKC
Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/181/theend7zv.th.jpg

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Going to answer anytime soon?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by IKC
1) We see the flames cover the temple on which was vegetation, yes. We do not see the flames go inside the temple.

What in God's name kind of rock do you think Kun made his temples out of? It's not some mysterious flammable stone. Kun would've been quite alright inside.

2) What in God's name are you talking about?

3) Please, actual source material?

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8536/allmassassi8ot.th.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1724/allmassassi25zp.th.jpg

Big, unnamed f'in massassi.

And the ritual was designed to free him from his body, yes. But as spirits, force users lose power, especially over time. Evidence: Obi-Wan

5 (learn to number, you're out of order)) No, the Sith is an organization. For all this vaunted talk of the prophecy, if Palpatine ate it before, say, Maul, Anakin would've been destined to kill him and not your beloved Sidious. QED.

4) Again, the creature is a sith wyrm and did these padawans do it by shooting giant energy blasts from their hands with no effort and no consequences? I think not.

1. And there's ANY reason to assume Kun's body was not destroyed?

2. Y'know, that wall of light...would've stopped Kun dead in his tracks...

3. Essential Character guide stated Kalgrath MUTATED. Read Classic Star Wars or the Wiki article. Proof they lose power in centers for their power, charged with energy from a race....Kun wasn't an ordinary force ghost, I, Jedi shoots your point down

4. And the Sith at the time was Palpatine, so anakin was destined to kill him. And he did it.

5. Blister traps, mouth appendages, skin colar, body shape...yeah, that's a leviathan. Killed by a padawans. Real nice, Exar

Lightsnake

IKC
1) If Kun's body was destroyed it is most likely the result of the ritual, given that the fire could not enter the temple.

2) Uh, and it did. That's what it took all the Jedi in the galaxy to do.

3) Prove that he was anything more than a force ghost like Nadd or Ragnos, Obi-Wan or Anakin. All that the comic states is that the massassi were needed to unleash his spirit, not so that they can uber his spirit up.

4) Yes, but the prophecy wasn't that someone would come along and kill a man named Palpatine but that someone would come along and destroy the Sith.

5) Wrong.

http://www.theforce.net/timetales/tt4-5/LEVIA2.JPG

That's a leviathan.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/3471/sithbeastkun9ek.th.jpg

That's a Sith Wyrm.

QED. Aren't you tired of being wrong?

IKC
Originally posted by IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8) http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8536/allmassassi8ot.th.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1724/allmassassi25zp.th.jpg

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.



This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.



Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/828/sylvarpwned2jo.th.jpg

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3039/tottblock8js.th.jpg

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

IKC
Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/181/theend7zv.th.jpg

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

If you had a shred of reading comprehension, you'd see this points came before your irrelevant paragraph. They still go unanswered, but they will not go unrepeated until they are.

Dark Aristokrat
You would do nice to actually address points with fact and logical reasoninf for once, Lightsnake.

Illustrious
Kinda like how Sadow and his ilk spent centuries in sith magic and alchemy?



To remnant scraps of power. When Korriban or Ziost had been flourishing, I'd guarantee you'd find more there. Much less to an individual who was fully immersed (he was living there after all) in the culture and society.



He was a specter of the past.



He was a specter of the past (first definition). That certainly doesn't imply that he was more powerful than all of the Sith in the past, sorry.



'Kay, this means he's an avatar?



This entire passage talks about how Luke is untrained and unversed. This is the guy that ultimately lead to Sidious' demise. It does not mention that he was the most powerful force wielder ever.

I don't know how you're interpretating it, but perhaps you should post your explication.

Lightsnake
Y'know, Janus? Stay out of this. You've done nothing but be a total hindrance during this entire round of debates and you shut up rather quickly after I posted that info, which by the way....is official. You are NOT.

And IKC, read I, Jedi. It takes Kun down about ten pegs and shows he was stronger than he was when he was alive. Temple focal point? All that life energy? Yep.

And in EC and CG, it's described as a Leviathan. 'Sith Wyrm' turns up no search, now to your other points

IKC
Y'know Lightsnake? Don't tell other members what to stay out of or get into. You're not Lord of the Board.

And Lightsnake, read TOTJ. It shows Kun performing feats that his spirit could never do. I, Jedi, written by Michael Stackpole and not KJA was more about Corran Horn than anyone else.

And in the TOTJ Sourcebook, it's called a Sith Wyrm. I love how you didn't address how they don't resemble each other. Here are its stats:

Sith Wyrm: Mutated subterranean carnivorous vermin 14; Init +0; Defense 12 (+10 natural, -8 size); Spd 16m, burrow 40m; VP/WP 326/304; Atk +26 melee (4d8+17, bite) or +5 ranged; SQ Darkvision 20m, swallow whole, track; SV Fort +25, Ref +11, Will +3; SZ C; Rep 4; Str 44, Dex 10, Con 38, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 10. Challenge Code: l.

Skills: Listen +14, Hide +7, Spot +9, Survival -1 Special Qualities: Swallow Whole-After a successful grapple check, the Sith wyrm can swallow opponents it holds (see Grapple on page 148 of the Star Wars
Roleplaying Game). The opponent can be up to Gargantuan in size. First, the Sith wyrm must make a successful melee touch attack to grab its victim. Immediately afterward, it must make an opposed grapple check to hold its victim. On a later turn, it may attempt an opposed grapple check against its held opponent. If the wyrm succeeds on its check, it swallows its victim whole; on a failed roll, the
opponent remains held.

If the victim survives the attack and ends up in the Sith wyrm's stomach, he or she suffers 3d6 points of acid damage each round. If the swallowed character can deal 48 points of wound damage to the inside of the Sith wyrm (which has a Defense of 12), he or she breaks free.

Illustrious
Tales of the Jedi is official too. You didn't seem to hesitate in denying that.



The same Kun that had Luke at his mercy until he got help? The Luke that was post DE? Check.

And no one claimed either incarnation of him was weak, but I, Jedi does not provide any substantiation or definitive conclusive narration that he was weaker in physical form than as a spirit.



That's because it's in TOTJ wink.

darthsith19
I have a question. What does DE Sidious do that makes him so powerful? So much more powerful than ROTS Sidious? I mean, didn't he get killed by Han Solo?

Lightsnake
1. And you have no proof Kun was toying with Vodo. In fact, the EC calls it a 'heated battle'

2. Sorry, confirmed you need to prepare to become a Force Ghost. New Rebellion, Kunny boy. Not only that, name one person who didn't know they were going to die who became a ghost and vanished.

3. Or there wasn't a Grandmaster. Considering how spread out the ORder was. Prove Vodo was a grandmaster, or shut up, Kunny boy.

4. Really. says the Tetans did that. And Odan had no part of it. He and memit disconnected their sabers.

5 and 6: Yes, yes.

7. There were four JEdi present then, Qrrl Toq wasn't one of them,. they could have easily tried it on Kun. Maybe Vodo's just an idiot!

8. But I can use the power anyway, what's your point? Character guide says Kalgrath became the night beast, Wiki supports it...just conceed this point.

9. Only when she blocks him off from the Force completely, maybe...

10. Aleema? And why didn't Kun blast him at first? Shows he makes glaring errors. And his hand was burned, thanks for agreeing. And btw, in Sithisis, we see Sidious change his face at will, how sweet.

11. Read the essay or shut up. Unless you can put Kun to ANY plateau Sidious stands on after that...

12. Everyone else? Shut up, Kunny boy. considering Luke was an avatar of the force at the time.....

13. Designed to instantly kill an opponent that Luke blocks. NEXT!

14. Translation: I have no proof and must attack the source! Please, Nadd's knowledge was limited to Sadow and what's Kun learn from Korriban now? Waaait, no Ancient Sith training or ancient artifacts from there...certainly not their darkest secrets...

15. Or they were on Byss, or unlike Kun he';s not a wimp who needs them.

16. Proof now. We saw KRessh match Sadow and Sadow only become Dark Lord via murdering Simus.

17. Six years. Enough to become momentously stronger. Read the essay or shut up, Kunny boy. Mace Windu? One of the best saber users who ever lived.

No explanation to how Ood drew up power from OSsus to fight Sedriss, no answers to how Odan was strong in the least...Mace'd have destroyed your prcious exar in a fight. Vaapad, something Kun has never seen....we know Sidious killed numerous Jedi in the purge and crushed three strong Jedi in a dying clone body...And yes, the Chancellor can pull out a saber and storm the temple....I recall Kun running in fear from the Jedi who equaled the number in that temple and being tooled by toddlers

Lightsnake
Originally posted by darthsith19
I have a question. What does DE Sidious do that makes him so powerful? So much more powerful than ROTS Sidious? I mean, didn't he get killed by Han Solo?

Summons what is described as the mightiest weapon of the Ancient Sith to destroy a fleet

why do people ignore he let Han shoot him to leave the clone?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Illustrious
Tales of the Jedi is official too. You didn't seem to hesitate in denying that.



The same Kun that had Luke at his mercy until he got help? The Luke that was post DE? Check.

And no one claimed either incarnation of him was weak, but I, Jedi does not provide any substantiation or definitive conclusive narration that he was weaker in physical form than as a spirit.



That's because it's in TOTJ wink.

This stuff is recent. TOTJ is years and years old. And contradicts nothing.

What Luke at his mercy? He failed to destroy Luke and needed Kyp's help to double team him.

I, Jedi says clearly he had a well of power to focus on and the energies he sucked from the Massassi...what'd be the POINT of shedding the chains of flesh to become an 'almighty spirit' if he'd decrease in power?

'Sith Wyrm' is never mentioned in TOTJ.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by IKC
Y'know Lightsnake? Don't tell other members what to stay out of or get into. You're not Lord of the Board.

And Lightsnake, read TOTJ. It shows Kun performing feats that his spirit could never do. I, Jedi, written by Michael Stackpole and not KJA was more about Corran Horn than anyone else.

And in the TOTJ Sourcebook, it's called a Sith Wyrm. I love how you didn't address how they don't resemble each other. Here are its stats:

Sith Wyrm: Mutated subterranean carnivorous vermin 14; Init +0; Defense 12 (+10 natural, -8 size); Spd 16m, burrow 40m; VP/WP 326/304; Atk +26 melee (4d8+17, bite) or +5 ranged; SQ Darkvision 20m, swallow whole, track; SV Fort +25, Ref +11, Will +3; SZ C; Rep 4; Str 44, Dex 10, Con 38, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 10. Challenge Code: l.

Skills: Listen +14, Hide +7, Spot +9, Survival -1 Special Qualities: Swallow Whole-After a successful grapple check, the Sith wyrm can swallow opponents it holds (see Grapple on page 148 of the Star Wars
Roleplaying Game). The opponent can be up to Gargantuan in size. First, the Sith wyrm must make a successful melee touch attack to grab its victim. Immediately afterward, it must make an opposed grapple check to hold its victim. On a later turn, it may attempt an opposed grapple check against its held opponent. If the wyrm succeeds on its check, it swallows its victim whole; on a failed roll, the
opponent remains held.

If the victim survives the attack and ends up in the Sith wyrm's stomach, he or she suffers 3d6 points of acid damage each round. If the swallowed character can deal 48 points of wound damage to the inside of the Sith wyrm (which has a Defense of 12), he or she breaks free.

And neither is Janus. Neither are you. What feats does he do that his spirit couldn't? Never saw his physical form help remove someone from their body.
Oh, so Stackpole is less official than KJA? And here's what's great: The TOTJ sourcebook is contradicted in several places now. What's a few more times then? I mean, the Sith Empire now only existed for 2000 years now...and the Night beast looked far different than KAlgrath before his mutation so? Alright, but Sith Wyrm, fine. I'd place a Leviathan on a higher plateau

And y'know something? After how Sorgo and Janus have acted, I have no issues not being civil to them. After numerous insults and personal attacks, I'm sick of it.

Veneficus
God...this has gotten pathetic. Nevermind that we are arguing about imaginary characters and nevermind that it is pointless anyway lets just go ahead and insult eachother over the unreal!

Yayyyyyyy*record breaks* *jumbled scratching nioses and finally silence*

Lightsnake
Ven....you're right. I've been a dick, and I'm sorry

darthsith19
What? He left the Clone? How did he leave the Clone?

Lightsnake
The entire point was that his spirit wasn't bound by the flesh

IKC
1) No, you have no proof that it was a stalemate. In fact, the ease with which Kun kills him in the only source that matters (the actual comic) tells us he was toying with him. QED.

2) Sorry, no it isn't. Vodo, Arca, Odan, none of them are shown making "preparations" to join the Force. Neither is Master Dominus, who Zona Luka strikes down in TSW. Ergo, whatever "preparations" are required, fanboy, don't take very long to do.

This is beside the point. Like I said, you finally admitted that Vodo didn't give up. It took you long enough.

3) Or you don't know what "de facto" means, which wouldn't surprise me. Who else was the de facto head of the order if not Vodo?

4)


http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg

7) Really? Only four? What the hell is this then?

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7370/jedivsulic7gh.th.jpg

Ooh, and there's old horse-faced Qrrl Toq bringing up the rear!

And they could have tried it against Kun, but since they did not, Kun's most likely so much more powerful than them that they knew it would fail.

8) The point is that he seems to change his mind and orders all of the massassi, including the unnamed one he sent into the isolation chambers, to the sacrificial chamber. Prove that Kalgrath was the Massassi Kun ordered down there, then.

9) While he's overcome with grief after killing his brother Cay and not resisting worth a damn? Good job. I can push over a 300 lb man if he doesn't try to push back.

10) Or that Kun is confident enough that he doesn't need to blast Ulic to best him.

And you don't seem to understand the element of sarcasm:



And in ROTS, we see that when Sidious' lightning is reflected back at him, it deforms him.

11) A plateau? laughing You seem to forget the subject matter: you claimed Kun used Makashi, we slapped that ridiculous assertion aside with evidence from the source material.

12) Ah yes, an "avatar of the Force" but he'd get pwned by PT padawans in a saber duel. Good job Luke.

And answer the question, is Tott Doneeta a Force God because he can block vehicle blasts with Force shields?

13) What you stated doesn't make a lick of sense in the context of my post.

"
13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!"

One: Prove that it can counter any sith technique that does so.

Two: Prove that it can do so without fail, even if the attacker has more force power than the defender.

Three: Prove that it's even the same technique Kun uses.

14) Incorrect. If a story and a guide referencing a story are in conflict, do you know which one is correct? The original story.

Regarding Kun's knowledge... how could he not have found knowledge or artifacts on Korriban and at the same time Palpatine could find them there four thousand freaking years later?

Short answer: It's impossible that he couldn't have. Ergo, Kun has knowledge and artifacts recovered from Korriban. They didn't just disappear when Kun was on the world.

15) Or Palpatine's an idiot who would rather walk five miles to work rather than drive. Or they didn't even exist.

And this makes him greater than the creators of said artifacts, how?

This is not to mention that you have no proof that Kun needed the amulet for anything.

16) We saw Kressh match Sadow... for a few panels before being interrupted by Ragnos. Unless you honestly think that if they kept fighting uninterrupted the fight would go on forever, there's no such thing as a true stalemate.

17) Six years where he had no opportunity to learn any of the ancient forms and six years where he had no formal teaching of any sort. Lucky for him everyone else sucked too.

This is not to mention that it only took six months for Kun to reach the point he reached in TSW.

Mace Windu? A "child" in comparison to those of the Ancient Sith. A child in comparison to Exar Kun's skills. The minute Mace Windu puts Yoda on his ass, come talk to me, because then he'll come close to Kun's accomplishment.



No mention how Ood was rooted to one spot for four thousand years, remained rooted during the fight, declared "combat is not my skill," and got fried by a supernova.

What a challenge he must have been.



http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg

War experience, anyone?



Kun's style, something Mace has never even heard of combined with a short-hilted double-bladed lightsaber, something no Jedi is experienced with fighting against.

Mace would get crushed.



So did Boba Fett. Is Boba Fett > Exar Kun, now?

And if by "three strong Jedi" you mean "three post-OT Jedi who can in no way compare to the PT until NJO."



But did he? No. By your logic, that means he's a weakling.



First point: You're lying. Prove up and show me the fear. Fear hasn't been on Kun's mind since before he embraced the Dark Side.

Second point: Tooled by toddlers? You realize that the apprentices were mostly adults and they were assisted by two lightsabers, Vodo, and Luke, right?

This is not to mention that he was a four thousand year old, weakened, half-mad spirit. Even as a spirit he outperforms Palpatine, who did jack-all as a spirit.

Thanks for proving Janus' prediction though.



Lying fanboys can't save Sidious. Nor can they respond to all the points of their opposition. When they do, they are devoid of logic and evidence.

Lightsnake
1. No, it doesn't. It shows he had an advantage after he used his trump card. If he could beat him otherwise, he would have.

2. Vodo knew he'd fight Exar later and accepts his death, we see Arca accept his death, Odan, we see Dominus definitely accept his death, saying he fights for the light even against Zona...when would any preparations be LONG? Luke doesn the same thing in the New Rebellion. It's a technique only performable by true Jedi Masters, that's it.

3. Ood? Arca? Who says there was a head of such a disjointed order? PRove there was a grandmaster

4. How? Wouldn't it be worth a try? I submit I was wrong about Jedi number, but to not try it against Exar is insanity.

5. Kalgrath reappeared in Classic Star Wars as a night beast and later made his way to Ziost. When did Kun change his mind? He'd already decided to drain the Massassi except Kalgrath, called a 'last surprise.

6. So? And the Ancient Sith Odan supposedly tried this on couldn't fight back? Wouldn't it be worth a shot to subdue Kun? Four strong Jedi at once blocking him from the Force, a technique never shown to be blockable?

7. As Kun is only stalemating Ulic....and he didn't kill Aleema either despite the fact he was there for that purpose

8. And in ROTS, we see him faking. According to Lucas's commentary, Dark side use changed his face. In the EU, we see him change it at will.

9. http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php
No, we didn't. Here's proof. And check the author's name if you like.

10. I assume you have proof to back that up. Luke is descirbed as a 'titan' and a god there.

11. You're not exactly providing oodles of proof a force choke is 'simple telekensisi'....if it was, Obi-wan wouldn't be nabbed by Dooku with it and OBi-wan could've saved Padme.

12. Tott was only a gifted student trained by Arca who showed excellent mental gifts.

13. When it doubt insult it out, IKC? Luke says he learned to block Sith techniques designed to instantly kill an opponent. He elarned to block deadly Sith techniques like force chokes....benefit of a doubt would imply...

14. How much time did Kun even spend on Korriban? And whatever knowledge he may've taken--was he shown taking anything? Was on Yavin 4, which Palpatine had access to...and according to what I posted earlier, source given: Palp knew all known powers, unknown powers and created new powers

15. Kun didn't need the amulet to kill the Wyrm and Nadd? Or kill Odan?

16. So? KRessh was still matching Sadow at the time. And the Sith Lords as a majority were supporting KRessh until the Republic incident.

17. You forget where Luke was described as a titan and God.

18. Proof Mace was a child to the Ancient Sith. had Kun ever seen Vaapad? No. Why would Kun's weapon make a different? We know Mace can move faster than even Kar Vastor's eye could detect.

19. Waaaait, Leia, declared strong as Nomi Sunrider, Rayf of the Ysanna and Brand, a survivor of the purge were weaklings? And you'll notice Ood said combat wasn't his skill...nothing about force power and Kun couldn't cut through him or blast him, it'd seem....and he drew up all his power from Ossus's core and that's a LOT of power.

20. Because the Chancellor would pull out a saber and reveal himself as a Sith, BRILLIANT idea.

21. "Ulic! It's dark, I'm trapped!"
Kun was trapped before Vodo and Luke showed up. He was repelled by the force twins, too.
And we know Kun had more power as a spirit from the life forces of the Massassi and the focal point of his energy...and that's one useless ritual and one stupid Sith if he'd be just decline as a spirit. Corran said he'd prepared for everything.
and as a spirit, Palpatine drained a world. In a body he was described as a titan, Godlike, knowing every aspect of the Force, unleashing the mightiest force technique known to the greatest degree ever done, incinerating a legion with force lightning, killing three men described as some of the best duelists an order produced in seconds, using a ritual to rock the galaxy.

Stop downplaying Luke, I showed proof he was declared a god and titan, so strong that his duel with Palp was felt over the galaxy. Palpatine achieved more, he learned more and demonstrated greater powers. in the DS sourcebook, a force storm is described as the ultimate Sith attack, required to rip the fabric of the galaxy. We know he had holocrons from many eras and perfected new techniques he invented. He took artifacts from Yavin, Ziost, Korriban, Abaadon, Dromund Kaas, Thule among many others-stated in Complete Locations, among others

Dark Aristokrat
Holy shit, I should charge admission for this.

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