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wolverine, batman, richard dragon, batgirl (cain), lady shiva, conner hawke are fighting each other to the death, who wins?

note* logan doesnt get his claws, his healing factors and his addy bones,
remember even if logan doesnt have those at his disposle he is still one of the best martial artist in the world of marvel

bats and batgirl dont have any devices, connerhawke doesnt have his arrows. who wins this match in the end?

healing factor wins

Iron fist or Shag Chi! Shag Chi is Shang Chi's sexy brother baby - Yeah!

Originally posted by spiderboy5
note* logan doesnt get his claws, his healing factors and his addy bones,
remember even if logan doesnt have those at his disposle he is still one of the best martial artist in the world of marvel


there are many better though.... the Cat would kick his ass all over the place

If im forgetting any other characters that are great plz feel free to add on to the list.

Shag Chi wins baby - Yeah!

karate Kid

Karate Kid is a walking plot device from the future... he doesn't count in this

Taskmaster could win provided hs saw enough fights of all the other fighters

That would not not be the greatest martial arts battle because Connor Hawke is not a martial artists and how can you put Lady Shiva, and batgirl in there without Blade . But of the wannabes you picked I'll pick Batman

Connor isnt a martial artist? Hes damn good, even on Batman level without pis or prep....

It's come down to 3...Dragon....Shang-Chi....Iron-Fist.

Originally posted by Lighthammer
That would not not be the greatest martial arts battle because Connor Hawke is not a martial artists and how can you put Lady Shiva, and batgirl in there without Blade . But of the wannabes you picked I'll pick Batman

Erm ....Connor Hawke is one of the top martial artists in the DCU.
He was good enough to have stalemated Shiva, good enough to have given Richard Dragon serious trouble, and he became the Silver Monkey for a while.
Connor Hawke is basically just below Shiva/Batgirl/Dragon, and just above Batman.

Richard Dragon for me.

Has a pretty good record against Shiva and Tiger, and against Connor has a win and a stalemate where the only connected move belonged to him.

Would be cool to see him figthing Batgirl.

Ra's Al Ghul--Shang-Chi--Captain America (trained in every form of martial arts known to man)--Iron Fist--there are so many, who can say which is best?

Okay Connoer Hawke may be a martial artist but how can you say that he is less then Batgirl but more then Batman that makes no sense because you are basically saying that Batgirl is more matrially adept then Batman and thoguh I admit I was wrong about the Connor Hawke thing I know for a fact taht Batman is a way better martial artist then Batman.

Is anyone forgetting karnack......

Originally posted by Lighthammer
Okay Connoer Hawke may be a martial artist but how can you say that he is less then Batgirl but more then Batman that makes no sense because you are basically saying that Batgirl is more matrially adept then Batman and thoguh I admit I was wrong about the Connor Hawke thing I know for a fact taht Batman is a way better martial artist then Batman.

lol batman is a better martial artist than himself? lol jk i kno what u meant

Gambit beats all these guys without using his powers.

THE JUGGERNAUT...


oh wait he isn't a martial artist in any way shape or form...

how about batman!

Captain America

Shatterstar and Captain America.....

I hate Captain Propaganda he is not trained in all forms of fighting he just isn't there isnt any comics showing this either they just made this stuff up to make him unbeatable cuz he's "patriotic"

Cap (he's beaten lady deathstrike) is good but not the best. Best fighter comes down to execution of moves even if u have learnt 1 art.

hmm, strange that no one had mention logan being the best. wat happened to wolverine's cheerleaders like wolverine8888?

come close and i shall tell you who may indeed wins........JOKER SHOWS UP AND JOKERIZES ALL OF THEM

Shang-Chi Marvel Master of Kung-Fu
Iron-Fist Marvel's Perfect Martial Artist
Black Panther Marvel's Batman but Stronger and faster
Daredevil Marvel's Ultimate Ninja

Originally posted by joesha28
Shang-Chi Marvel Master of Kung-Fu
Iron-Fist Marvel's Perfect Martial Artist
Black Panther Marvel's Batman but Stronger and faster
Daredevil Marvel's Ultimate Ninja BP isnt even peak human....

He is peak human... carries twice his weight.

Originally posted by joesha28
He is peak human... carries twice his weight. do you know how much t-challa weighs?

200 lbs while Cap is 220 lbs which make Cap stronger.

Originally posted by joesha28
200 lbs while Cap is 220 lbs which make Cap stronger. Cap can curl 500 pounds repeadetly..... cap can squat over 800

These are bench press, bro.

Originally posted by joesha28
These are bench press, bro. cap can bench over 500 pounds, easily

"Okay Connoer Hawke may be a martial artist but how can you say that he is less then Batgirl but more then Batman that makes no sense because you are basically saying that Batgirl is more matrially adept then Batman and thoguh I admit I was wrong about the Connor Hawke thing I know for a fact taht Batman is a way better martial artist then Batman."

Batgirl IS a better martial artist than Batman. The Cassandra Caine version that is.

That doesnt mean shes the better overall fighter. It means she has better skills in the MA department.



"BP isnt even peak human...."

He is. Hes comparable to Cap.

Originally posted by olympian
"Okay Connoer Hawke may be a martial artist but how can you say that he is less then Batgirl but more then Batman that makes no sense because you are basically saying that Batgirl is more matrially adept then Batman and thoguh I admit I was wrong about the Connor Hawke thing I know for a fact taht Batman is a way better martial artist then Batman."

Batgirl IS a better martial artist than Batman. The Cassandra Caine version that is.

That doesnt mean shes the better overall fighter. It means she has better skills in the MA department.



"BP isnt even peak human...."

He is. Hes comparable to Cap. not wut his bio says, but i guess your correct he is comparable, but not better

wel he has the potentials to be.

Originally posted by joesha28
wel he has the potentials to be. no he doesnt, he will never equal the cap in ability or strength or agility cap is human perfection.

In my opinion, bats or lady shiva.

Originally posted by King KAM
no he doesnt, he will never equal the cap in ability or strength or agility cap is human perfection.
than why do writers compare them....

The general view at Marvel is that Cap is a bit stronger, BP is a bit faster, but they're both at or beyond peak human and very evenly matched.

That said - Lady Shiva is probably the best of the bunch FOR NOW (Shang Chi suffered an embarassing - yes EMBARASSING - loss to bone claw Wolverine), but given the rate at which Batgirl is evolving, she'll likely take the title easily this time next year. I'd put it like this:

1. Shiva
2. Batgirl
2. Shang Chi
2. Richard Dragon
5. Bronze Tiger
6. Black Panther
6. Captain America
8. Batman (a billion+ martial arts and still has trouble against untrained street brawlers like Joker, 2-Face, Hush and Black Mask)
9. Conner Hawke
10. Iron Fist (sorry, suffered too many embarassing losses - like to Invisible Woman, of all people in an MA match!!!)
11. Daredevil
12. Elektra
13. Wolverine
14. Wonder Woman (not counting her strength/speed)
15. etc.

Originally posted by demigawd
The general view at Marvel is that Cap is a bit stronger, BP is a bit faster, but they're both at or beyond peak human and very evenly matched.

That said - Lady Shiva is probably the best of the bunch FOR NOW (Shang Chi suffered an embarassing - yes EMBARASSING - loss to bone claw Wolverine), but given the rate at which Batgirl is evolving, she'll likely take the title easily this time next year. I'd put it like this:

1. Shiva
2. Batgirl
2. Shang Chi
2. Richard Dragon
5. Bronze Tiger
6. Black Panther
6. Captain America
8. Batman (a billion+ martial arts and still has trouble against untrained street brawlers like Joker, 2-Face, Hush and Black Mask)
9. Conner Hawke
10. Iron Fist (sorry, suffered too many embarassing losses - like to Invisible Woman, of all people in an MA match!!!)
11. Daredevil
12. Elektra
13. Wolverine
14. Wonder Woman (not counting her strength/speed)
15. etc.


The original Archer from Valiants not Acclaims Archer and Armstrong comes second to Karate Kid!

Champion is the best martial artist.............

Well, I intentionally left out Karate Kid. Given his pre-crisis feats, he'd likely be able to take everyone else out on this list at the same time. With his hands behind his back. Blindfolded. At half speed.

Valiants Archer was cool as **** - In fact if you get the chance read it, it is often seen going cheap, do not confuse with Acclaims shit one after they bought the characteres. Archer and Armstrong was derivative and nothing new, but executed to perfection. Archer = think how Iron Fist should be!

Wonder Woman regularly trains (and defeats) Lady Shiva in powerless combat....

I put her near the top. Richard Dragon possibly surpasses her.

REMEMBER people. You need to add experience. Orion and Big Barda definitely belong there. They mastered dozens of martial arts.

Originally posted by Draco69
Wonder Woman regularly trains (and defeats) Lady Shiva in powerless combat....



What? When? How? Issue?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
What?When? How? Issue?

Note that prior to the training, WW rendered herself powerless (what's the use of training with a human when you're Superman in a skirt?)

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img58&image=wwtrain4fd.jpg

Also, Cap.

1) Where has he received all the martial arts knowledge? He hadn't done jack shit until the age of 20 or so when he got in the super soldier deal, and even then, I remember his training last only months. After that, he fought in the battlefield, yes, but not way as long as some people. After that he spent about 30 years in ice cube until Namor saved him. He joined Avengers. He continued practicing daily, but I really think that his martial arts experience doesn't touch someone like Black Panther, who has recieved the same kind of training since he could walk.

Namor is actually in the same position then Black Panther, only that he has more experience. But I am not saying that he is as good as BP.

Originally posted by Draco69
Note that prior to the training, WW rendered herself powerless (what's the use of training with a human when you're Superman in a skirt?)

http://img58.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img5...=wwtrain4fd.jpg

Can't see the pic.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Also, Cap.

1) Where has he received all the martial arts knowledge? He hadn't done jack shit until the age of 20 or so when he got in the super soldier deal, and even then, I remember his training last only months. After that, he fought in the battlefield, yes, but not way as long as some people. After that he spent about 30 years in ice cube until Namor saved him. He joined Avengers. He continued practicing daily, but I really think that his martial arts experience doesn't touch someone like Black Panther, who has recieved the same kind of training since he could walk.

I completely agree. Cap is NOT a master of martial arts. THINK people. He got the serum in the middle of the war. He didn't have TIME to master every martial art known to man. He learned some judo style boxing, karate and tae kwon do. That's it.

Cap is just extremely talented at what he does.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Can't see the pic.

I edited it. If you STILL can't see it go to the WW Respect thread. It's the second post.

I can see it.

Originally posted by BetaRayBill
Taskmaster could win provided hs saw enough fights of all the other fighters I'd expect him to win because of what he's already seen.

Originally posted by Draco69
Note that prior to the training, WW rendered herself powerless (what's the use of training with a human when you're Superman in a skirt?)

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img58&image=wwtrain4fd.jpg

Unless you changed the scan, that's NOT Lady Shiva Wonder Woman is fighting.

Originally posted by brainchild81
I'd expect him to win because of what he's already seen.

I think improv has always been his weak point. Having a million moves isn't very impressive when you lack the good judgment to know how and when to apply them. He's also limited to his basic physical conditioning, which isn't on the level of BP or Cap, or even Batman.

Originally posted by demigawd
Unless you changed the scan, that's NOT Lady Shiva Wonder Woman is fighting.

Yes, it's the Cheetah. Prior to battle, she already battled and defeated Killer Croc and Shiva. After Cheetah was defeated, she naturally was confident enough to battle all three.

Originally posted by Draco69
Yes, it's the Cheetah. Prior to battle, she already battled and defeated Killer Croc and Shiva. After Cheetah was defeated, she naturally was confident enough to battle all three.

Do you have scans of the actual Shiva battle?

Originally posted by demigawd
Do you have scans of the actual Shiva battle?

They didn't show it....

But it was mentioned later in the issue that WW won. Shiva said something like "I have GOT to train on Themyscira." It was written by Gail Simone who's a rather big Shiva fanboy (girl).

It does make sense. More experience. More training. More arts learned. yadda, yadda.

Originally posted by demigawd
I think improv has always been his weak point. Having a million moves isn't very impressive when you lack the good judgment to know how and when to apply them. He's also limited to his basic physical conditioning, which isn't on the level of BP or Cap, or even Batman. Not sure about that. His conditioning nearly puts him on par w/Cap. I think he's at the very least as conditioned as Bats. He's also got the ability to fight in "fast forward" for a short period of time before his human body breaks down from the stress.

Champion should also be on that list.

Originally posted by brainchild81
Not sure about that. His conditioning nearly puts him on par w/Cap. I think he's at the very least as conditioned as Bats. He's also got the ability to fight in "fast forward" for a short period of time before his human body breaks down from the stress.

I'll concede that physically he may be a match in conditioning for Batman, but BP and Cap should still be beyond him because their conditioning is, in part, artificial.

Originally posted by Draco69
They didn't show it....

But it was mentioned later in the issue that WW won. Shiva said something like "I have GOT to train on Themyscira." It was written by Gail Simone who's a rather big Shiva fanboy (girl).

It does make sense. More experience. More training. More arts learned. yadda, yadda.

WW is defintitely underrated in H2H, but her powerless self beating Shiva off-panel is a bit dubious. IMO, that would be one of her two victories in a 10 fight battle against Shiva. How did WW remove her own powers anyway, and what strength class does that put her in? Deathstroke?

Originally posted by demigawd

WW is defintitely underrated in H2H, but her powerless self beating Shiva off-panel is a bit dubious. IMO, that would be one of her two victories in a 10 fight battle against Shiva. How did WW remove her own powers anyway, and what strength class does that put her in? Deathstroke?

I don't know HOW she removed her powers. Perhaps the Watchtower has something nifty that can remove her powers. Or she petitioned the gods to remove them for her. Or the writer has no clue how her powers work.

Most likely the latter....

Originally posted by Draco69
I don't know HOW she removed her powers. Perhaps the Watchtower has something nifty that can remove her powers. Or she petitioned the gods to remove them for her. Or the writer has no clue how her powers work.

Most likely the latter....

Hmm...has dubious written all over it. But ok, a win's a win I suppose. Like I said, though, I wouldn't give a powerless Wonder Woman the majority in a 10 fight series against Shiva. What's your stance?

Originally posted by demigawd
Hmm...has dubious written all over it. But ok, a win's a win I suppose. Like I said, though, I wouldn't give a powerless Wonder Woman the majority in a 10 fight series against Shiva. What's your stance?

I would. She's been around for far longer. She's been trained to kill and maim in a dozen different languages since the day she was born (there's nothing more disturbing than seeing a three-old decaptiate a wooden dummy...) and her library is larger. Shiva's limited to earth-bound arts that are still remembered or practiced. WW's has not only mastered those but classic and/or forgotten arts that never survived into the modern world. Add alien martial arts like Tamanese, Titanese, Kryptonian, and New God arts, and WW is superior.

But I doubt she'll be recognized officially in the comics. Batman will ALWAYS be on top....



Granted, the one major advantage Lady Shiva and Batgirl have is "body-reading" which WW simply doesn't have. Perhaps on a lower level, but not nearly on par with them.

Originally posted by demigawd
I'll concede that physically he may be a match in conditioning for Batman, but BP and Cap should still be beyond him because their conditioning is, in part, artificial.
I know. Cap and BP are @ least a step ahead of anybody that's not superhuman.

Originally posted by Draco69
I would. She's been around for far longer. She's been trained to kill and maim in a dozen different languages since the day she was born (there's nothing more disturbing than seeing a three-old decaptiate a wooden dummy...) and her library is larger. Shiva's limited to earth-bound arts that are still remembered or practiced. WW's has not only mastered those but classic and/or forgotten arts that never survived into the modern world. Add alien martial arts like Tamanese, Titanese, Kryptonian, and New God arts, and WW is superior.

But I doubt she'll be recognized officially in the comics. Batman will ALWAYS be on top....



Granted, the one major advantage Lady Shiva and Batgirl have is "body-reading" which WW simply doesn't have. Perhaps on a lower level, but not nearly on par with them.

Well, the thing you have to consider is that one's ability as a fighter isn't based on how many martial arts they know or how much training they do, or even how much experience they have. A lot of it are their physical gifts, mental gifts, and special abilities. A brilliant boxer can beat someone who knows boxing and dozens of other arts with twice as much experience if they just took better to it. Someone with the ability to read body movements and predict moves but knows fewer arts is still going to have an actual combat advantage over someone who lacks that ability. Someone who has a single great technique that they can use on instinct from any angle is going to have an advantage over someone who knows multiple techniques pretty well and has to decide which to use at any given time. Knowing too many styles is actually a liability because it compromises your ability to act on instinct. That's why Champion is a loser - he knows millions of styles, and gets goaded into blindly charging Thanos, who made him look silly because he's tempermental and mentally weak.

So while I agree that Diana likely knows martial arts that were extinct before Shiva was born, in the end it's not the only measurement by which to compare them. It's not even the most accurate measurement.

Originally posted by demigawd
Well, the thing you have to consider is that one's ability as a fighter isn't based on how many martial arts they know or how much training they do, or even how much experience they have. A lot of it are their physical gifts, mental gifts, and special abilities. A brilliant boxer can beat someone who knows boxing and dozens of other arts with twice as much experience if they just took better to it. Someone with the ability to read body movements and predict moves but knows fewer arts is still going to have an actual combat advantage over someone who lacks that ability. Someone who has a single great technique that they can use on instinct from any angle is going to have an advantage over someone who knows multiple techniques pretty well and has to decide which to use at any given time. Knowing too many styles is actually a liability because it compromises your ability to act on instinct. That's why Champion is a loser - he knows millions of styles, and gets goaded into blindly charging Thanos, who made him look silly because he's tempermental and mentally weak.

So while I agree that Diana likely knows martial arts that were extinct before Shiva was born, in the end it's not the only measurement by which to compare them. It's not even the most accurate measurement.

Yup Styles make fights, and an average big guy will usually beat a good little guy hence weight divisions.

"Where has he received all the martial arts knowledge? He hadn't done jack shit until the age of 20 or so when he got in the super soldier deal, and even then, I remember his training last only months. After that, he fought in the battlefield, yes, but not way as long as some people. After that he spent about 30 years in ice cube until Namor saved him. He joined Avengers. He continued practicing daily, but I really think that his martial arts experience doesn't touch someone like Black Panther, who has recieved the same kind of training since he could walk. "

Its Hyperbole. Prior to being frozen he couldnt had received the training he claims because they wer already on war. He wasent shown to receive MA training either with the exception of the military type one. They had to use him right away as theyr secret weapon.

Its the same with Bats. Where he had the time to learn and master 127 figthing styles and still devolope its own? Bullocks.



"Shang Chi suffered an embarassing - yes EMBARASSING - loss to bone claw Wolverine"

I dont see where its the problem with this loss. Shang stated and admited while beating the former Ninjas of his late father that he was out of practise for some time. Plus its Wolverine. Physical superior stats, also good figthing skills and he ended pulling the claws anyway.

I dont see it as jobbing.



"WW's has not only mastered those but classic and/or forgotten arts that never survived into the modern world. Add alien martial arts like Tamanese, Titanese, Kryptonian, and New God arts, and WW is superior".

Thats another like Cap and Bats. Hyperbole. Rucka when saying that practically mentioned every single figthing style he remembered from the DC Universe. Really now.

I personally feel that this shld be limited to human-enhanced human or most to most wolverine level but not WW pls.... i mean than for the marvel side we cld bring in powerless Thor (stalemated Cap), and mortal Herc.




Originally posted by demigawd
The general view at Marvel is that Cap is a bit stronger, BP is a bit faster, but they're both at or beyond peak human and very evenly matched.

That said - Lady Shiva is probably the best of the bunch FOR NOW (Shang Chi suffered an embarassing - yes EMBARASSING - loss to bone claw Wolverine), but given the rate at which Batgirl is evolving, she'll likely take the title easily this time next year. I'd put it like this:

1. Shiva
2. Batgirl
2. Shang Chi
2. Richard Dragon
5. Bronze Tiger
6. Black Panther
6. Captain America
8. Batman (a billion+ martial arts and still has trouble against untrained street brawlers like Joker, 2-Face, Hush and Black Mask)
9. Conner Hawke
10. Iron Fist (sorry, suffered too many embarassing losses - like to Invisible Woman, of all people in an MA match!!!)
11. Daredevil
12. Elektra
13. Wolverine
14. Wonder Woman (not counting her strength/speed)
15. etc.

I personally feel Dragon tops it with Shang Chi, with Shiva no2...while Batgirl and Iron fist tie for third. Bronze Tiger...Batman...Conner tie together. Than comes Daredevil(yes i do think DD slightly better than BP and Cap.). Than BP and later Cap.

You know, I left someone very important out of the Marvel side.

Gamorra.

Perhaps I just don't know enough about Shang Chi to rank him as highly as some of you do...what are his best feats?

I read he stalemated or beaten Spidey b4... oh yeah and Shang-chi is only human.

Originally posted by joesha28
I read he stalemated or beaten Spidey b4... oh yeah and Shang-chi is only human.

Daredevil and Kingpin can claim the same thing, though. The explanation is usually that Spiderman holds back against humans.

I also forgot to add Temugin. In fact, given what he did to Iron Man, I'd don't know if any Marvel Martial Artist short of Gamorra has a better feat. the Gorgan was pretty impressive, too, even without his telepathy, taking out both Wolverine and Elektra.

Let me revise my rankings a bit, and I'll include the mega plot device characters too:

1. Karate Kid (stalemated Superboy, and Daxamites)
2. Gamorra (human stats, but hurt THANOS)
3. Temugin (beat the unholy hell out of Iron Man with his bare hands)
4. Shiva
5. Batgirl
6. Gorgon (Wolverine enemy who beat both Wolverine and Elektra at the same time)
7. Shang Chi (what's his top feat?)
8. Richard Dragon (would have beaten Shiva, but was stopped)
9. Bronze Tiger
10. Black Panther
10. Captain America
10. Batman
13. Conner Hawke
14. Iron Fist (sorry, suffered too many embarassing losses - like to Invisible Woman, of all people in an MA match!!!)
15. Daredevil
16. Elektra
17. Wolverine
18. Wonder Woman (not counting her strength/speed)
19. Ogun
20. Mr. X

Why is Dragon at 8? Dragon did beat Shiva...but did not finish his move cos he did love here. Imagine he beat her and held back at the last moment. He's regrets. He shld be 4. Daredevil could be a 9... he's a bullet-timer, he's reflexes are so good that spidey could not tag him much. He's skills could be better than Cap.

Dragon had her, but the fight wasn't stopped because he loved her, it was stopped by Shiva's guardians. The fight re-started from the top and Shiva beat and killed him. It was a dubious win, but if Dragon were truly better, he would have beaten her the second time. And given how she's beaten him in the past as well, her overall record makes her better.

Batgirl is the only person in DC to convincingly beat Shiva. And she's even better now than she was then.

If you take out Marvel, I have Dragon ranked at #3 (behind Shiva, and Batgirl, who beat Shiva more convincingly than Dragon). I think that's fair.

I forgot to add Dick Grayson. Add him just under Conner Hawke.

Originally posted by demigawd
Dragon had her, but the fight wasn't stopped because he loved her, it was stopped by Shiva's guardians. The fight re-started from the top and Shiva beat and killed him. It was a dubious win, but if Dragon were truly better, he would have beaten her the second time. And given how she's beaten him in the past as well, her overall record makes her better.

Batgirl is the only person in DC to convincingly beat Shiva. And she's even better now than she was then.

If you take out Marvel, I have Dragon ranked at #3 (behind Shiva, and Batgirl, who beat Shiva more convincingly than Dragon). I think that's fair.

But Shiva did not seem right in her mind when she fought Cass in that issue. I still see Dragon at Shiva's equal at least.

Originally posted by joesha28
But Shiva did not seem right in her mind when she fought Cass in that issue. I still see Dragon at Shiva's equal at least.

I think you misinterpreted it. It was actually Cassie who wasn't in her right mind. Shiva originally killed Cassie, but resurrected her because she said Cassie was holding back because she had a suiccide wish. Cassie felt guilty over killing somebody when she was four years old and purposely threw the fight to die. Shiva told her to clear her mind because she's a different person and they fought again...for real that time. In that fight, with no more holding back, Cassie won.

Now, where you're getting your theory that Shiva might not be in her right mind most likely is from what Cassie said after the fight when she said that Shiva has a deathwish, too - she goes around fighting people looking for her death in EVERY fight she's in. Assuming Cassie is correct, that means that Shiva is like that in ALL of her fights - so she wasn't fighting in a different or altered way.

Originally posted by joesha28
Why is Dragon at 8? Dragon did beat Shiva...but did not finish his move cos he did love here. Imagine he beat her and held back at the last moment. He's regrets. He shld be 4. Daredevil could be a 9... he's a bullet-timer, he's reflexes are so good that spidey could not tag him much. He's skills could be better than Cap. your on crack, marvel itself says that captain america is possibly the best hand to hand fighter ever known, how and the hell does DD get ranked higher than him??? he would mop the floor with DD and punisher at the same time.

Originally posted by King KAM
your on crack, marvel itself says that captain america is possibly the best hand to hand fighter ever known, how and the hell does DD get ranked higher than him??? he would mop the floor with DD and punisher at the same time. and marvel themselves say that cap has better agility, daredevil is "circus level" cap is "better than any olympian"

Originally posted by King KAM
your on crack, marvel itself says that captain america is possibly the best hand to hand fighter ever known, how and the hell does DD get ranked higher than him??? he would mop the floor with DD and punisher at the same time.

You obviously haven't read the rest of this thread.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
You obviously haven't read the rest of this thread. meaning?

uh why has no one mentioned Karnak? Hell in all honesty if you take out CIS Taskmaster murders everyone here.

Originally posted by Warmonger
uh why has no one mentioned Karnak? Hell in all honesty if you take out CIS Taskmaster murders everyone here. hell in all honesty your incorrect like a muafucca

any thing these guys can do Taskmaster can do except he can do ita ll at once. Taskmaster wins.

Originally posted by King KAM
meaning?

That Cap isn't that good at all. His training doesn't hold a candle to likes of Black Panther, Daredevil or Shiva.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
That Cap isn't that good at all. His training doesn't hold a candle to likes of Black Panther, Daredevil or Shiva. yet hes a better fighter....you sound like a mcdojo guy who knows absolutley nothing about fighting, it doesnt matter who trains more, or longer or in more shit, it matters on who can kick whos ass, and cap in h2h can kick Bps ass, dds ass, and shivas ass.

Originally posted by Warmonger
uh why has no one mentioned Karnak? Hell in all honesty if you take out CIS Taskmaster murders everyone here. ditto
Originally posted by King KAM
yet hes a better fighter....you sound like a mcdojo guy who knows absolutley nothing about fighting, it doesnt matter who trains more, or longer or in more shit, it matters on who can kick whos ass, and cap in h2h can kick Bps ass, dds ass, and shivas ass. I've heard DD kicked his ass recently. He can predtict moves better due to his senses

Originally posted by Lighthammer
That would not not be the greatest martial arts battle because Connor Hawke is not a martial artists and how can you put Lady Shiva, and batgirl in there without Blade . But of the wannabes you picked I'll pick Batman

Connor Hawke is a martial artist, and according to DC comics he's the #1 martial artist in the modern universe. but the most dangerious MA's in all of comics should go to ....

1. Karate Kid
2. Gamora
3. Mantis
4. Shiva
5. Shang Shi
6. Iron Fist
7. Richard Dragon
8. Sarah (Batgirl)

remember we are talking about martial artists. not all around fighters. like Cap, Batman, Wolverene, ect ect
9. Dick Grayson (Nightwing)
10. that MA that beat the hell out of Gambit and Roguein X-men ( I don't remember his name)

Originally posted by King KAM
yet hes a better fighter....you sound like a mcdojo guy who knows absolutley nothing about fighting, it doesnt matter who trains more, or longer or in more shit, it matters on who can kick whos ass, and cap in h2h can kick Bps ass, dds ass, and shivas ass.

He's not better fighter. Do you have anything to prove this?

If he wins any battles, it's because of his shield and peak human attributes in everything, not necessarily because of his fighting prowess.

Originally posted by brainchild81
ditto
I've heard DD kicked his ass recently. He can predtict moves better due to his senses what comic book?

"Dragon had her, but the fight wasn't stopped because he loved her, it was stopped by Shiva's guardians. The fight re-started from the top and Shiva beat and killed him. It was a dubious win, but if Dragon were truly better, he would have beaten her the second time. And given how she's beaten him in the past as well, her overall record makes her better"

We dont know if either he stopped because he wanted or because of the guards. He could even not want it and the guards would do theyr move anyway. That ish leaves the doubt from Dragon`s part (When Neron asks that exact question in the end) about if he wanted or not actually go for it. He did beat her the same way she beat him.

Dragon in that comic run had one loss against Shiva when he was still inexperienced (right after he won his first MA tournemant title) and another in that second round. And he has one win against her.

If we leave inexperience out they are tied.

Out of that run, they never fought post crisis as far as i recall. And Dragon still had the reputation he won pre crisis by defeating guys Shiva and Tiger as well as Batman couldnt.

Originally posted by olympian
"Dragon had her, but the fight wasn't stopped because he loved her, it was stopped by Shiva's guardians. The fight re-started from the top and Shiva beat and killed him. It was a dubious win, but if Dragon were truly better, he would have beaten her the second time. And given how she's beaten him in the past as well, her overall record makes her better"

We dont know if either he stopped because he wanted or because of the guards. He could even not want it and the guards would do theyr move anyway. That ish leaves the doubt from Dragon`s part (When Neron asks that exact question in the end) about if he wanted or not actually go for it. He did beat her the same way she beat him.

Dragon in that comic run had one loss against Shiva when he was still inexperienced (right after he won his first MA tournemant title) and another in that second round. And he has one win against her.

If we leave inexperience out they are tied.

Out of that run, they never fought post crisis as far as i recall. And Dragon still had the reputation he won pre crisis by defeating guys Shiva and Tiger as well as Batman couldnt.

pre-crisis I believe Dragon was Shiva's teacher, so he had the edge in experience. post-crisis it was reversed, but I think the fact remains that Shiva's feats surpass Dragons and her victory in the re-match was pretty convincing, and combined with her earlier victory (even if due to inexperience), I think Shiva deserves a higher ranking than Dragon, even if only marginally. I think at any given time, Shiva, Cassie and Dragon could beat each other without anyone raising objections. Cassie has the greatest potential of the three, Shiva is the most accomplished, and Dragon can still become a bit better.

Re: the Captain America debate - given the way Cap manhandled Iron Fist, I'd definitely say that Cap is underrated in the MA department. I'd also say that a martial artist IS a fighter...that's what they do, they're proponents of the art of war. There was nothing in the post that said hand-to-hand only, or who knows the most techniques. It's who is the best fighter. By all rights, that really means anybody who engages in combat, but reasonably speaking, I think Cap and Wolverine and Deathstroke and even Punisher certainly count as martial artists, even if unarmed combat isn't their primary MO.

Originally posted by demigawd

Re: the Captain America debate - given the way Cap manhandled Iron Fist, I'd definitely say that Cap is underrated in the MA department. I'd also say that a martial artist IS a fighter...that's what they do, they're proponents of the art of war. There was nothing in the post that said hand-to-hand only, or who knows the most techniques. It's who is the best fighter. By all rights, that really means anybody who engages in combat, but reasonably speaking, I think Cap and Wolverine and Deathstroke and even Punisher certainly count as martial artists, even if unarmed combat isn't their primary MO.

But didn't Invisible Woman defeat Iron Fist? I wouldn't rate him close to being the Top Ten.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But didn't Invisible Woman defeat Iron Fist? I wouldn't rate him close to being the Top Ten.

Well, yeah...that's why I have Iron Fist ranked at #14. I'm just saying, Iron Fist is highly regarded and Cap treated him like an amateur.

Originally posted by King KAM
your on crack, marvel itself says that captain america is possibly the best hand to hand fighter ever known, how and the hell does DD get ranked higher than him??? he would mop the floor with DD and punisher at the same time.

Marvel can say crap.... If Cap is the the best hand to hand fighter ever known, than who is Shang-Chi....Iron-Fist these guys would be gods of h2h. Yes i said DD is better...and i'm still saying it. But Cap can beat DD THANKS ONLY TO SERUM.

Originally posted by demigawd
Well, yeah...that's why I have Iron Fist ranked at #14. I'm just saying, Iron Fist is highly regarded and Cap treated him like an amateur.


Iron-Fist is always under written...you shld buy his own book... than come back to the forums and rank him #14. Black Panther had high regards of him.

Does Karate Kid have any actual fighting feats or battles? I just hear people talk about him, but i havent seen anything posted. Is he really that good. Or is he just "supposed" to be that good?

Originally posted by joesha28
Iron-Fist is always under written...you shld buy his own book... than come back to the forums and rank him #14. Black Panther had high regards of him.

um...if he's ALWAYS underwritten, then that's not underwritten. That's him.

I'm not going by how strong he's *supposed* to be, I'm going by how strong he's been shown to be. If he's underwritten, that's his problem...those are the feats I have to take into consideration when ranking him.

all of brucelee's matches are the best. especially the one where he beat the crap out of chuck norris. and im sure im gonna get a little response back from whirlysplat saying thats not true. well sorry pall it is.

Originally posted by demigawd
um...if he's ALWAYS underwritten, then that's not underwritten. That's him.

I'm not going by how strong he's *supposed* to be, I'm going by how strong he's been shown to be. If he's underwritten, that's his problem...those are the feats I have to take into consideration when ranking him.

I understand what you mean....wait till i show you my scans... that will take some days.

for now here's my list:

Marvel:

1) Temugin/Shang-Chi (can't really separate the 2...so a notch below is)

2) Iron Fist (The perfect martial Artist. he will be 2-3 notches abv the next fighter)

3) Daredevil (the ult ninja....slightly abv..)

4) Black Panther (a notch abv..)

5) Captain America (a notch abv...)

6) Wolverine

ppl like Cap, DD, BP can beat the top tiers by out thinking them. Wolverine can those better than him in h2h thanks to healing factor. Wolvie..cap, BP have strength advantage against the rest. This list is merely h2h.

What about... Elektra, Lady Deathstrike, Lady Shiva, Black Canary, Black Cat, Magdelena...

Originally posted by joesha28
for now here's my list:

Marvel:

1) Temugin/Shang-Chi (can't really separate the 2...so a notch below is)

2) Iron Fist (The perfect martial Artist. he will be 2-3 notches abv the next fighter)

3) Daredevil (the ult ninja....slightly abv..)

4) Black Panther (a notch abv..)

5) Captain America (a notch abv...)

6) Wolverine

ppl like Cap, DD, BP can beat the top tiers by out thinking them. Wolverine can those better than him in h2h thanks to healing factor. Wolvie..cap, BP have strength advantage against the rest. This list is merely h2h. This list makes no sense, you sound like one of those guys who trains karate for 12 years and loses a street fight,but still tries to say that hes a better martial artist, we are basing these things off of how its applied not how well, a human has as much jaw strength as a great white shark, doesnt mean our bite does equal damage.

Here is why you shld respect the Iron fist....

He's a bullet timer...

http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist11yl.png

He uses his chi-power to crush a gun to dust....

http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist27dy.png

Cuts a pole with bare hands...
http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist35dx.png

Punches a speeding van to a halt...check out how a passenger flew out.
http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron16pm.png
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron27zj.png

Originally posted by Next Venom_girl
What about... Elektra, Lady Deathstrike, Lady Shiva, Black Canary, Black Cat, Magdelena... elektra is good and black cat

actually out of all the women fighters id say elektra and mystique is the best

Originally posted by joesha28
Here is why you shld respect the Iron fist....

He's a bullet timer...

http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist11yl.png

He uses his chi-power to crush a gun to dust....

http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist27dy.png

Cuts a pole with bare hands...
http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist35dx.png

Punches a speeding van to a halt...check out how a passenger flew out.
http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron16pm.png
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron27zj.png

any comments of the pics?

Originally posted by joesha28
Here is why you shld respect the Iron fist....

He's a bullet timer...

http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist11yl.png

He uses his chi-power to crush a gun to dust....

http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist27dy.png

Cuts a pole with bare hands...
http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist35dx.png

Punches a speeding van to a halt...check out how a passenger flew out.
http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron16pm.png
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron27zj.png

You know, I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, yeah, those are great feats. But on the other, it furthers my belief that he's something of a one trick pony. I could give any of the other martial artists on the list the iron fist and they could do all the exact same things. I understand that he developed the iron fist and it wasn't given to him, so lots of respect. But most of the other martial artists on this list have similar feats without using what basically amounts to energy projection.

It's debateable, but I classify the iron fist with the likes of Cap's shield and Wolverine's claws and Batman's...everything else. They're more tools than an indication of the user's skill.

I know your obvious retort will be, "Cap was given his shield, Iron Fist MADE his iron fist", and I won't have a really good counter for it, but still...there's just something less impressive about being a character with an innate energy attack.

Where do you place Iron Fist on the overall list?

I will still list him as the top 3 marvel martial arts practitioners.

Who are #1 and #2?

Temugin and Shang-chi respectively.

Originally posted by joesha28
Here is why you shld respect the Iron fist....

He's a bullet timer...

http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist11yl.png

He uses his chi-power to crush a gun to dust....

http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist27dy.png

Cuts a pole with bare hands...
http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fist35dx.png

Punches a speeding van to a halt...check out how a passenger flew out.
http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron16pm.png
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron27zj.png and got his ass whooped by cap...

What are Shang-Chi's biggest feats? I'm having a hard time putting anyone but Temugin and possibly Gorgon above Gamora. But I don't know enough about Shang-Chi's most impressive actions to say where I think he belongs.

Originally posted by King KAM
and got his ass whooped by cap...

Hello super-serum!!!

Originally posted by King KAM
and got his ass whooped by cap...

And Cap could not beat Daredevil.....

Originally posted by joesha28
And Cap could not beat Daredevil.....

I'd actually put Daredevil above both Cap and Iron Fist, so it kinda makes sense to me.

Are we rating these people interms of pure fighting skills or fighting ability? Skillfully wise, Shang-Chi, Taskmaster, Elektra are among the top. However fighting wise, id put Daredevil above the likes of those characters. Is he AS skilled as them? Not quite. Maybe in some instances, but because of his senses, he does and will have an advantage over them in most situations.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Are we rating these people interms of pure fighting skills or fighting ability? Skillfully wise, Shang-Chi, Taskmaster, Elektra are among the top. However fighting wise, id put Daredevil above the likes of those characters. Is he AS skilled as them? Not quite, but because of his senses, he does and will have an advantage over them in most situations.

Very well said... this is skills wise not counting strength or so forth.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Are we rating these people interms of pure fighting skills or fighting ability? Skillfully wise, Shang-Chi, Taskmaster, Elektra are among the top. However fighting wise, id put Daredevil above the likes of those characters. Is he AS skilled as them? Not quite. Maybe in some instances, but because of his senses, he does and will have an advantage over them in most situations.

It's a fair question, and in an earlier post I said that I consider a martial artist to be someone with the greatest fighting ability - and that can include both unarmed and armed combat IMO. The thread didn't state who is the best-trained h2h fighter, but I think most people are answering it that way.

I dont know how good all the DC fighters are, but as far as Marvel goes heres my list.

1. Captain America
2. Elektra
3. Daredevil
4. Taskmaster
5. Shang-Chi
6. Iron Fist/Black Panther
7. Deadpool
8. Wolverine
9. Bullseye
10. Nick Fury/Punisher

Ok....here are some of Iron Fist feats, can't post scans but it's from the Iron Fist Essentials.

Iron Fist stalemated Iron Man (IM did have adv here... he's lot stronger than IF).

In #14 Iron Fist defeated Sabretooth.

#15 Iron Fist fought Wolverine...Logan was knocked around but credits to him he kept coming back (healing Factor) but was still knock around. (Logan could not even lay a scratch on Danny). Eventually, Colossus and Nightcrawler entered the fight and it was 3 vs 1 disadv to Iron Fist. But they cld not defeat Iron Fist and was knocked around embarassingly.

Originally posted by joesha28
And Cap could not beat Daredevil..... when did they fight???so i can read it

Here you go DD respect thread... pg5

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386982&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=5

Originally posted by joesha28
Here you go DD respect thread... pg5

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386982&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=5 can someon repost those on this thread, im having problems seeing all the pics...

o boy...

Originally posted by joesha28
o boy... please..... i post my scans when needed....

Originally posted by joesha28
Here you go DD respect thread... pg5

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386982&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=5

You call that a real fight? DD turns on him during what cap thinks is just a exhibition and not a serious fight. Then Cap holds back to make sure nothing is wrong with DD then they trade blows with each other about evenly then Cap tries to talk him out of fighting and get some medical attention for whatever is wrong with him while DD knocks him on his ass then leaves when he snaps out of whatever effected him.

Are there any instances where there both fighting for real and are really trying to take each other out?

doing it...

enjoy this in mean time....

http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil042nobodylaughsatthej.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil24nr.jpg

http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil37tw.jpg

http://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil42tl.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil54jl.jpg

http://img34.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil68oy.jpg

Originally posted by Jose123
You call that a real fight? DD turns on him during what cap thinks is just a exhibition and not a serious fight. Then Cap holds back to make sure nothing is wrong with DD then they trade blows with each other about evenly then Cap tries to talk him out of fighting and get some medical attention for whatever is wrong with him while DD knocks him on his ass then leaves when he snaps out of whatever effected him.

Are there any instances where there both fighting for real and are really trying to take each other out?

yes he did till Cap thought he was an imposter than the real fight begin.

Originally posted by joesha28
yes he did till Cap thought he was an imposter than the real fight begin.

then they both traded blows about evenly. Cap knocked him on his ass DD knocked him on his ass. Cap punched him,DD punched him.

even at the end he was still trying to talk him out of whatever was wrong with him

Yeah but my point was Cap could not defeat DD. DD matched him even if Cap is stronger

the last 2...

http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil71it.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil71it.jpg

Originally posted by joesha28
Yeah but my point was Cap could not defeat DD. DD matched him even if Cap is stronger

Cap was still trying to to talk him out of it though. How is that matching a no holding back seriously trying to take you down with all he has cap?

Are there any other examples where there both not holding back and are seriously trying to take each other out?

Originally posted by joesha28
Altogether now

http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil042nobodylaughsatthej.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil24nr.jpg

http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil37tw.jpg

http://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil42tl.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil54jl.jpg

http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil60nz.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil71it.jpg

http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daredevil81bc.jpg

Originally posted by joesha28
Yeah but my point was Cap could not defeat DD. DD matched him even if Cap is stronger Cap did win, he knocked DD around and then asked him for answer....then DD CHEAPSHOTTED him, and then cap knocked him down and tackled him.

Originally posted by Jose123
Cap was still trying to to talk him out of it though. How is that matching a no holding back seriously trying to take you down with all he has cap?

Are there any other examples where there both not holding back and are seriously trying to take each other out?

true to an extent but DD was not "well" too. his head was kinda screwed up.

Originally posted by King KAM
Cap did win, he knocked DD around and then asked him for answer....then DD CHEAPSHOTTED him, and then cap knocked him down and tackled him.

Cap himself did not say he won... he said DD did proved something in this fight. Cap cld not defeat DD.

Originally posted by joesha28
Cap himself did not say he won... he said DD did proved something in this fight. Cap cld not defeat DD. you are a,sad sad little man.......

Sad is a feeling that everyone has. It's illogical for someone to be always happy when on earth.

Originally posted by joesha28
Sad is a feeling that everyone has. It's illogical for someone to be always happy when on earth. and it just keeps gettin more sad

Originally posted by King KAM
and it just keeps gettin more sad

Don't worry be happy...

Originally posted by joesha28
Don't worry be happy... your the sad one...

Did not know you practice telepathy.... how abt moving my arse with your powers?

Originally posted by joesha28
true to an extent but DD was not "well" too. his head was kinda screwed up.

and cap suspected that which is why he was still trying to talk him out of it even at the end.

Originally posted by Jose123
and cap suspected that which is why he was still trying to talk him out of it even at the end. cap won that shit, its easy to see, he LET DD get back up

Originally posted by King KAM
cap won that shit, its easy to see, he LET DD get back up

not to mention he didn't really want to seriously hurt someone who might :
a. gone temporarily insane

or b. been mind controlled. like most heroes sometimes do.