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so who wins ive heard alot of amazing things about this shaman nate like taking a blast from a being who killed thor with such a blast but was not even pushed back or harmed they say Thor is herald level so who wins?

Originally posted by Mider
so who wins ive heard alot of amazing things about this shaman nate like taking a blast from a being who killed thor with such a blast but was not even pushed back or harmed they say Thor is herald level so who wins?

Shaman Nate FTW

I would go with Shaman Nate also.....

But i have to take into account the fact that Silver Surfer shut off Cables X-gene....now it was a confrontation that had alot of talking and postering......so i am undecided as of yet

Surfer every time...
Eyes beams FTW.

Originally posted by Skeets
Surfer every time...
Eyes beams FTW.

SS

Beware the eye beam..
SS ftw..

bumprav

Nate

Originally posted by Mider
so who wins ive heard alot of amazing things about this shaman nate like taking a blast from a being who killed thor with such a blast but was not even pushed back or harmed they say Thor is herald level so who wins?

Who killed Thor with a blast?

Originally posted by llagrok
Who killed Thor with a blast?
Red Hulk!

Shaman Nate isn't stronger than Jesus Cable imo.

SS wins.

Surfer.

Arguably more powerful, vastly faster in speed and reactions, more durable and a whole lot more versatile.

Shaman Nates powers are all thought based. Before he could even blink, his head would be rolling across the floor.

Silver Surfer wins.

can't Surfer just turn off any mutant's "X-gene"?
and what do people think Nate could do, by way of an attack, against Surfer?

I don't quite grasp this "bending energy", is this "PSI energy" we're talking about? is Nate somehow insulated in it?

Surfer has good control over psi-energy as well as having some impressive wins via the astral plane (I think he used the astral plane during In Thy Name, recently too).

Surfer's powers have been upgraded recently, I'm not sure if the Cable - Surfer fight was prior to UniLord or not but it definitely happened before Surfer returned to the service of Galactus (and became upgraded to the extent that he's busting planets with nonchalance)...

I don't know the nature/scale of Nate's powers, so I'm just going by what I've seen of Cable and the Surfer's powers.

Oh and just for the record, I deem Silver Surfer the all around superior and most likely to take the match. I only addressed a few points concerning X-Man.

Originally posted by id369
Oh and just for the record, I deem Silver Surfer the all around superior and most likely to take the match. I only addressed a few points concerning X-Man.

Cool. I can only see Surfer losing if he is cocky and careless. Given those qualities are not aspects of his personality i dont see why Surfer wouldnt win everytime if it was his intention to kill Nate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
His powers operate at the speed of thought. They respond to the very human reactions of Nate Grey. Human reactions could be bypassed by something moving a few thousand miles per hour. Surfer can move at speeds far greater. When you couple in the fact that his reaction time is exponentially greater, then Nate wouldn't even register his attack before he's dead.

There is no prep time in this battle.


Cable v1 #117.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1559/cable10718gy7.th.jpghttp://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8094/cable10719ys7.th.jpg
What I saw, was Cable attempting to end his life willfully. Yet his TK responded fast enough to place a barrier before lighting struck him.

I read about a character that can detect subtle changes in the environment, filter through and processes thoughts in the millions, no way a telepath of that caliber has a reaction time for human standards. Its simply out of the question.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm



He was created in the hope that Jeans amazing genetic potential could result in offspring with similarly amazing abilities. He was not created to harness Jeans power.



No my friend, he was created in the hopes to harness spontaneous outpouring of energy, of cosmic birth.
X-Factor 22.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2665/xfactor02235vx9.th.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/8549/xfactor02236yd8.th.jpg
Originally posted by GalacticStorm



In Uncanny x-men tests were done on Phoenix. It was stated that she had psychic circuit breakers and that her power was increasing along a geometric curve with no end in sight. Unless you're trying to claim that Nates powers were also unlimited, (Not Hulk unlimited. Not Magneto unlimited. Cosmic unlimited. ) then this means there is no static model of Phoenix for Nate to have been matched up to at the time.

The infamous X-Mans power is clocked to the Phoenix. It makes reference to the Dark Phoenix saga.
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8391/cable02913ly0.th.jpg

This is the only time, the Phoenix power level was ever clocked and on file during the Dark Phoenix saga.
Uncanny X-Men 135
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2328/uncannyxmen19800713508dr1.th.jpg

No reference to the circuit psychic circuit breakers you speak of.

Forget the point for point back and forth.

Im going to break this down.

Regardless of how above human fast you believe Shaman Nates reaction times to be, they are not fast to the point that they can become a factor when Silver Surfer is flying at multiples of the speed of sound in order to kill Nate.


Feats of Cable, cannot be used to substitute for a lack of similar feats for Nate because of their similar genetics. That points not debatable.

Moira stated quite clearly, that she was going to extrapolate from what is known of Nates power. That means that based on his demonstrated power levels, she made an educated guess at his future potential.

She thought that he could equal Phoenix of the Dark Phoenix Saga era. An estimated guess at future potential and reality are two very different things. When you can provide a scan of Nate absorbing the energy of a sun then we can confirm Moiras guesswork. Until then all that is relevant is what he has demonstrated on panel.

There is no getting around that.

Surfer evry time. Feats wise he blows Shaman nate out of the water. Shaman nate is probabaly my favorite X related character but he does not have the feats to take down SS especially current SS.

Based on evidence Surfer wins without much effort.

Current Surfer ftk (for the kill)

Current Surfer w/ the upgrades?
Are you serious?
Do you really think Shaman Nate Grey could take him on in his current form?

SS 9/10
Shaman Nate Grey 1/10 for luck

Still Surfer 9.5/

Human durability and reaction times against KMC Surfer are autolose

Originally posted by Juk3n
Still Surfer 9.5/

Human durability and reaction times against KMC Surfer are autolose

Good thing Shaman nate permanently amplified his body then?

Yeah, I think people are underestimating Shaman Nate Grey. I don't think he's quite up there with Silver Surfer... but his potential does appear to be great.

One thing though... I was pretty sure Surfer and Cable were both repairing the damage their battle was causing?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah, I think people are underestimating Shaman Nate Grey. I don't think he's quite up there with Silver Surfer... but his potential does appear to be great.

One thing though... I was pretty sure Surfer and Cable were both repairing the damage their battle was causing?

Yes Silver Surfer was repairing the environment, right after it was destroyed.

Hmmm, make sense...

Didn't he survived a blitz that split his body in diff. parts?

Originally posted by id369
Its mind bugling how you continue define extrapolate, as guess work. When it is strictly referred to a data comparison. Comparing data is are not guess work. And unless the original poster states Blood Lust, Silver Surfer is in serious mode yet in character.

To extrapolate is to infer or estimate on a future state based on that which is known.

The only fact is that which is known i.e Nates power levels as of that issue.

Based on how he had performed in the present, Moira forecasted the level his power was going to reach and said that this matched the Phoenix of the DP Saga.

What is fact is Nates current power level. What was not fact at that point and what was never ever shown to be fact even at the point of his demise was her forecast, her extrapolation.




Originally posted by id369
he way extrapolate was used, was to compare a previous data to the current one. Previous Dark Phoenix Readings, to the Current Nate Grey. That is it?!?

extrapolate: to infer (values of a variable in an unobserved interval) from values within an already observed interval.


Your interpretation is conclusively wrong as it doesn't fit in with the definition of the word or Moiras sentence:

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8391/cable02913ly0.th.jpg

To extrapolate is to forecast something, to estimate about where something will be, or what level something will reach based on its current status.

Moira said "WE CANNAE BE CERTAIN OF THIS........"

(Which alone should tell you conclusively that she is not dealing with facts)

"....but if'n we extrapolate from what we know of the boys power"

She's taken readings of what she knows of the boys power and she's extrapolating. She's inferring, estimating about its future status(which ties into the clincher statement "WE CANNAE BE CERTAIN OF THIS........" )

"using this holograph to illustrate it equals......... the Phoenix"

As clearly stated the extrapolation has already occurred before the comparison to Phoenix and the results are illustrated visually by the holograph.

The extrapolation is the estimation of Nates future power level based on what he can do now.


The results were produced and then they were found to match the readings from Phoenix.

The extrapolation as you wrongly interpreted was NOT the exercise of comparing Nates power level to the readings for Phoenix. Where is the extrapolation in that? Thats a simple comparison.

Extrapolation is the exercise of predict the status of something in the future( by your own definition "to infer values of a variable in an unobserved interval" with the unobserved interval being the future) based on what we can see now( by your own definition"from values within an already observed interval, with the observed interval being the present)

Its like a weather forecast. Based on what we know and have studied about a weather pattern, we can extrapolate its movement. A weather forecast like extrapolation is not an exercise in fact. Its predicting the future based on fact.

I cannot break it down any simpler than that my friend.

I have even used your own definition that you copied from somewhere and explained it to you after you misinterpreted it. Your definition even states clearly that extrapolation is inferring about an unobservable interval(THE FUTURE) based on values from an already seen interval(the present or the past)

Moira stated that she extrapolated from Nates readings and produced a holo-graph to visualize her extrapolation.

This holograph was then compared to her records and it matched Phoenixes readings.

As Moira stated clear as day, there is no certainty to be found in this practice. "WE CANNAE BE CERTAIN OF THIS........"

Nate has never ever been stated to equal Phoenix. Not ever. Moira played weather woman and did a forecast on his future level based on what she knew and could see of his powers now.

Nate has never shown power on the level of Dark Phoenix (who was a capped Phoenix anyway) So as far as we have seen, Moiras prediction was never confirmed

Pay vary vary close attention my friend.



http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8391/cable02913ly0.th.jpg

Your misunderstanding the reason why extrapolation or prediction if you will is taking place. Not to judge the boys power, that much is already done. His power was registered and clocked. It makes no sense, to predict on a power that is registered. Nor is it mentioned ANYWHERE that his power will grow.

The reason for extrapolating, predicting, or as you say playing weather girl. Using the known data, that Moria obtained in X-Man #12. She is predicting her theory of the boys body going into critical mass, since his body is not meant to handle those awesome powers.

That my friend, is the reason for extrapolation.


Good debate, hope that cleared up the confusion. -Id

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Nate has never shown power on the level of Dark Phoenix (who was a capped Phoenix anyway) So as far as we have seen, Moiras prediction was never confirmed

Since we are in the talk of feats, and known displays of power. What where the feats Dark Phoenix showed us?

Consuming a star? Nate overloaded an Elder God in battle. And yet with limitations, (because mind you Nate powers are limited), apparently at capped levels. His powers are more then enough to destroy the Harverster who is harnessing the energy of the Earth and its inhabits. shock

Originally posted by id369
Pay vary vary close attention my friend.



http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8391/cable02913ly0.th.jpg

Your misunderstanding the reason why extrapolation or prediction if you will is taking place. Not to judge the boys power, that much is already done. His power was registered and clocked. It makes no sense, to predict on a power that is registered. Nor is it mentioned ANYWHERE that his power will grow.

There is no misunderstanding here ID.

Not on my behalf anyway. I have the comic, i know what was going on and what was talked about.

You say it makes no sense to predict power thats registered because its not mentioned that it will grow.

Come on now ID. You know yourself that it was always stated that Nate had great potential within his early comic appearances.

You've read the series i'm assuming, so you've seen for yourself how Nates displays of power have increased from his early days up until his last issue.

He was not in a static state. A few pages before the Dark Phoenix comparison, its even stated that he has potential:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3275/cable02910kk7.th.jpg

"Like none i have ever encountered..so great is his potential"

To have potential, you must have room for growth. Your point is discredited in the same comic so the point is non debatable.

The point is furthered discredited in Cable #30 the very next issue:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/6551/cable03007nk3.th.jpg

"This growing power"

Non debatable.

Originally posted by id369
The reason for extrapolating, predicting, or as you say playing weather girl. Using the known data, that Moria obtained in X-Man #12. She is predicting her theory of the boys body going into critical mass, since his body is not meant to handle those awesome powers.

That my friend, is the reason for extrapolation.

Regardless of whether she extrapolated from his current(at the time of the issue) power level to look at him simple growing up and getting more powerful or to see how his body was eventually going to critical mass, it is irrelevant. Either case is a power growth from his level at the time.

Nate got increasingly more powerful over the course of his series, Nate wasn't constantly at critical mass, it was a point he could potentially reach as he used his power at higher levels.

So with that in mind. Moira extrapolated from Nates current readings and the results were visualised by a holo-graph.


http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8391/cable02913ly0.th.jpg

The results matched the records for Dark Phoenix.

The extrapolation was the exercise of predicting the future state of his powers, based on his current power level activity.

The results matched Dark Phoenix in comparison.

That is all.


Originally posted by id369
Good debate, hope that cleared up the confusion. -Id

Couldnt have said it better myself

Originally posted by llagrok
Overloading Tundra is impressive, the rest simply isn't.

The Harvest just wasn't THAT impressive and feeding off Earth isn't enough to properly gauge his power.

Is it possible that Moria machine worked with a certain limit for instance lets say it can gauge a level of power to 1000, lets just say that Dark Phoenix was at 10.000 and Nates at 2000, wouldn't the machine in that case give the same result since both exceeded what it was capable of processing?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Is it possible that Moria machine worked with a certain limit for instance lets say it can gauge a level of power to 1000, lets just say that Dark Phoenix was at 10.000 and Nates at 2000, wouldn't the machine in that case give the same result since both exceeded what it was capable of processing?

I see what you're saying.

The machine could have limits and both of them could have given readings that were off the scale.

But the readings from Dark Phoenix were actual power levels for the time.

Nates power activity was monitored and from those readings Moira estimated what Nates power output could be. This forecast matched Dark Phoenixes reading that was on record(taken before she consumed a star.)

It was an estimate, a possibility, she never actually said that Nates power level matched up. She was saying based on her readings she has forecast that it could be.

The extrapolation occurred.
The extrapolation was visualised. The results were compared and they matched up with DPs readings.

The extrapolation was the art of predicting future values based on current levels.

What matched Phoenix was the extrapolation.

You are conclusively wrong as i have shown.

Moira said she wasn't certain, therefore you cannot come on here and tell us that Moiras readings were 100% correct.

Moiras findings, (her extrapolation and its visualization) matched Nate to Phoenix.

Therefore the letter spage was right to say from Moiras findings he matched up to Phoenix.

Unfortunately for your case, Moiras findings were not direct readings from Nate which equalled Phoenix, they were readings which were then extrapolated and the results of that matched Phoenix.

This is over

I don't see the difficulty here. not being a big X-Men fan, I guess I'm just looking at the logic underpinning the scene referenced.

it looks rather simple to me, Moira's projecting Nate's growth into the future, based upon his then present rate of growth.

so obviously the projection carries with it the possibility of being in-error, of Nate not sustaining the rate of growth or of him hitting some 'ceiling' which she could not have factored for when doing her projections.

Nate's growth rate seemed to place him on a slope that would eventually lead to DP levels (if the hypothesis that his rate of growth would be sustained were to hold true). that is definitely not the same thing as saying that she said he was as powerful as DP nor that he will be as powerful as DP (since this latter statement takes away the fundamental, implicit, guesswork involved and substitutes a faux 'fact' in its place).

anyway, extrapolation is by definition moving beyond the facts. thus it cannot then be referenced as a measure of extant powers, but as a quantification of potential.

Originally posted by janus77
I don't see the difficulty here. not being a big X-Men fan, I guess I'm just looking at the logic underpinning the scene referenced.

it looks rather simple to me, Moira's projecting Nate's growth into the future, based upon his then present rate of growth.

so obviously the projection carries with it the possibility of being in-error, of Nate not sustaining the rate of growth or of him hitting some 'ceiling' which she could not have factored for when doing her projections.

Nate's growth rate seemed to place him on a slope that would eventually lead to DP levels (if the hypothesis that his rate of growth would be sustained were to hold true). that is definitely not the same thing as saying that she said he was as powerful as DP nor that he will be as powerful as DP (since this latter statement takes away the fundamental, implicit, guesswork involved and substitutes a faux 'fact' in its place).

anyway, extrapolation is by definition moving beyond the facts. thus it cannot then be referenced as a measure of extant powers, but as a quantification of potential.

That was beautiful droolio

All Galactic Storm did was ***** about Dark Phoenix, without even addressing Sufer vs Nate. How uncharacteristic of him to only focus on Phoenix in a thread she's barely involved in.

Originally posted by llagrok
All Galactic Storm did was ***** about Dark Phoenix, without even addressing Sufer vs Nate. How uncharacteristic of him to only focus on Phoenix in a thread she's barely involved in.
Look at the first 2 pages

Originally posted by llagrok
All Galactic Storm did was ***** about Dark Phoenix, without even addressing Sufer vs Nate. How uncharacteristic of him to only focus on Phoenix in a thread she's barely involved in.

Bullsh*t.

I addressed the subject of the debate within the first two pages.

ID then tried to win the debate by saying that it was stated that Nates power equals Dark Phoenixes. If he won that line of argument, he would win the debate. Me arguing that Nates power does not equal DPs is me participating in the debate.

You're not stupid. Read before you start blabbing

Originally posted by llagrok
All Galactic Storm did was ***** about Dark Phoenix

Originally posted by kgkg


You know me

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You know me I found it funny

Hey GS where do u rank Protege?

Originally posted by kgkg
I found it funny

Hey GS where do u rank Protege?

Its possible he's one of if not the most powerful cosmic ever in Marvel. However his appearance was full of contradictions making it hard to really judge where he falls. He's definitely above the abstracts thats for sure.

^ I agree more with id369's interpretation of that extrapolation scene with Moira and Nate.

shaman.