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Since this seems to be a hotly contested match, we'll see how this goes.

The parameters of the fight: THe setting takes place in a coliseum, which is completely indestructable by any weapon or force power. The center pit is flat, sandy, and spreads about a quater of a square mile. Around the central pit are a huge set of stands, which the contestents can fight in. They may use the entirety of the pit, the stands, the corridors, the restrooms, &c of the Coliseum. However, they may not exit the area. If a part of their body touches the earth outside of the circumference of the Coliseum, they are eliminated from the fight.

Equipment: All individuals are able to come with their battle regalia, any equipment they possess and can carry on their person, and their weapon of choice. For Ragnos, he will have his scepter/sword, Kun will his have double-bladed lightsaber, etc. Obviously this means Kun can't take Sadow's ship or Sidious can't bring the Deathstar.

Qualification of Victory: A team can not win unless both members of the other team are either killed or eliminated via ringout. If an individual takes out the entire match because he is about to lose (for example, if Luke creates a black hole above the planet), then that team is automatically disqualified; this includes destruction on a planetary scale.

Statement of Power: All players come at the peak of their personal power. This means that Kun is presumably at his point on Yavin, before the ritual, Ragnos when he dominated over his opponents, DE Sidious at his peak, and Luke at the end of NJO.

Statement of Abilities: All force powers they have demonstrated or assumed as part of their innate abilities with their given equipment are eligible. For the purpose of this debate, all of Tavion's demonstrated abilities with her force scepter/sword can be used by Ragnos. Basic abilities such as telekinesis, force choke, sith lightning, and other force staples can be used by any of the contestants.

Outside Influence: No outside influence of any type may be used. Obviously this means Ragnos can not get Sadow and Kressh to attack his opponents, Kun does not have an army of Massassi, DE Sidious does not have his forces, and NJO Luke does not have the academy to back him up.

Collusion: For the purpose of the debate, both teams will be operating with perfect collusion.

By sheer saber skill alone, Luke would take either Kun or Ragnos. by force power scale alone, Luke's team wins....all memorabilia means Luke is fully entitled to his part of the Kaiburr crystal from mimban, that alone hurls the fight out of whack

Where's the support for Luke taking either of the two with just saber skills, I'd just like to see where you get that opinion.

Ragnos and Luke stalemate
Exar destroys Sidious
Exar and Ragnos proceed destroying Luke.

Resons:
Sidious is the weakest link there. He isn't a match for either Ragnos or Kun in a saber match, and force wise he might be able to stalemate Kun but since Kun has his nasty "instakill or throw people around like ragdolls" equipment at hand and Ragnos is even more powerful, Sidious is the first person that will die there.

And while I think that NJO Luke might be able to stalemate Ragnos (in terms of force powers and fighting ability), Ragnos and Kun combined are too much for him to take. So Ragnos and Kun win that fight.

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Originally posted by Lightsnake
By sheer saber skill alone, Luke would take either Kun or Ragnos.

And then Luke wakes up from his wet dream and is pwned by the whirlwind of lightsaber destruction that is Exar Kun. One on one, Kun outclasses either member of the other team. Combined with Ragnos, it'll be Anakin vs. the Younglings all over again.

Mmhmm, keep thinking that. And Kun otuclasses NJO Luke? When he can kill seven elite warriors in seconds AFTER cutting through an army and still have enough to kill Shimrra...Kun compares to NJO Luke how? We've seen Luke defeat armies, crush Sith and grow far stronger than when it took Kun double teaming him wuith Kyp to stop him.

Amazing, provide PROOF of Sidious's dominance and Luke's...not to mention Luke'd have a Kaiburr crystal to amplify his power quite a bit.

Lightsaber whirlwind? The same Exar Kun who stalemated an injrued, exhausted, sith poisoned Ulic Qel-Droma/

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An exhausted, injured, sith-poisoned Ulic? Is that why it was necessary for several Jedi including the rather-large Qrrl Toq to restrain him? Is that why he's obviously well enough to sex up Aleema?

Do you actually think that in the intervening time between this duel and The Sith War that Exar Kun didn't improve despite the fact that he has even more amulets in TSW? Good to know your mind's made up, fanboy.

And Ulic didn't? We see him best Mandalore when Mandalore had every advantage And considering Aleema's a massive corrupting influence and he earlier had fought Satal, pulled himself up andchased off his friends....how could he possibly be at his ebst as opposed to Kun? And why isn't Aleema dead now? After all, one of Kun's magical beams of power should've killed ehr, especially as that was what he came there to do.

And both are master swordsmen, good for them! Then and all the other three swordsmen in this topic. When Kun can kill seven slayers after fighting an army and kill Shimrra, crush a small army of stormtroopers led by a powerful darksider, defeat Lord Shadowspawn and his men, take down numerous dark Jedi to just toy with Brakiss and crush Lumiya like a bug...

Originally posted by IKC
The Sith War that Exar Kun didn't improve despite the fact that he has even more amulets in TSW?

He had *MORE* amulets did he? Interesting... most interesting... bwahaha. *Cough.*

Urm, yeah, as for the battle. I really couldn't say, probably Marka/Exar, though Luke/Sids would last a bloody long time... maybe take one of them down with them. I think Luke could take either individually - but I honestly don't know that much about Marka Ragnos other than "he ruled the Sith Empire for 100 years"

Oh, and that his spirit lost a fight with Jaden Korr.

Edit- Lightsnake has a point. Exar Kun and Ulic weren't that far apart in power... Kun just had access to more "bling", what with his being the designated Dark Lord and all. Take away all his Sith bling, and I think we'd see a far less uber Kun. Of course, I can't prove that - and for this battle he has access to all his neato toys so...

That's really all anyone knows

OH EM GEE! He bested a non-force user! Wow, that's relevant!

Ulic didn't improve at the rate Kun did. Ulic is never shown to have even learned Sith magic. Hell, Aleema's probably superior to him in that area.



Uh, read the comic. He chased off his friends twice, the last time when they attacked Cinnagar and it required Cay, Qrrl Toq, and a human male Jedi named Oron just to hold him down. Ulic was obviously well. He was not exhausted or weakened in any way. The fight was some time after he killed Satal, definitely not the same day.

You lose. Ulic was performing as best as he could.

And, if you'll read the comic, it's obvious that Kun didn't shoot her with the same beam, since it didn't rip right through her. I doubt she's made of stronger stuff than Sadow's beast. This would, of course, make sense given that Kun knew Ulic to be the greater threat. All he had to do was incapacitate her for the time being.



Ooh, feat wars and logical fallacies!

Okay. When either of these two can toy with and pwn centuries-and-millenia-old Jedi Masters, freeze a senate of millions of beings, etc etc...



5000 years after his death and as a spirit. Spirits are weaker than flesh and blood, and they lose power over time as evidenced by Obi-Wan's inability to continue to appear to Luke, etc.



Nonsense. Exar and Ulic were only equal, for a time, in lightsaber ability. Exar had more artifacts, more Force potential, and more knowledge of the Force than Ulic ever did. Remember, Ulic never learned Sith Magic.



Okay, take away Sidious' arms and legs "and we'd see a far less uber Sidious."

Of course you can't prove that, because it'd require evidence and logic. Gut feelings are worthless in a debate.

Who said I was engaging in a debate? That would actually mean I had to be trying to argue some kind of point. I'm not trying to prove anything, just say what I think...

The limbs comparison isn't the best one you could have thought up though... I mean, how is it fair if Kun has his limbs but Sidious doesn't have his? Reeks of Monty Python to me, though I imagine Sidious would display the same fighting spirit as the black knight.

The beaten by Jaden Korr thing was just a little joke - I don't really think it reflects too badly on Ragnos. Everyone has something they're ashamed of.

Considering that the "Obi-Wan's ghost fades away eventually" was written way before we got the "eternal life/influence" explanation however, I think we'll soon find out that he was just talking from a "certain point of view" once again, and wanted Luke to find solutions to his own problems as opposed to being unable to appear.

Really I think it's pretty ridiculous that the so much of the EU has managed to survive with all the prequel revelations, but I quite like it, so I can look past it.

If you're going to make a stand and say what you think, people are going to challenge you on it. This is a debate.

And the "limbs comparison" was a parody. Whenever I see someone asserting, "Well okay, take this away and character X will win!" I think fanboy. What is actually proved if you're going to cripple a character just so another can win?

Regarding the "eternal life" question, I don't think they're incompatible. Perhaps they do have eternal life but this may not mean they can appear to the truly living at will. Nothing in ROTS suggests that.

Originally posted by IKC
If you're going to make a stand and say what you think, people are going to challenge you on it. This is a debate.

Ack, you got me!



I did both realise and appreciate, which I why I brought Monty Python into it... maybe if I'd added the it would have been clearer.



Normally I'd agree with you, but I already know that Kun plus amulets owns. And they're not as fundamental to his character as say... wolverine's claws. I'm interested in whether or not Kun would be as badass even without his twink gear - sadly, it looks like I'll never know, since as you've established elsewhere, that Kun is a relatively unknown quantity.



It's implied in the novel that they continue to influence the world of the living... though you're right, nothing in the actual *film* suggests that.

Originally posted by IKC
OH EM GEE! He bested a non-force user! Wow, that's relevant!

Ulic didn't improve at the rate Kun did. Ulic is never shown to have even learned Sith magic. Hell, Aleema's probably superior to him in that area.



Uh, read the comic. He chased off his friends twice, the last time when they attacked Cinnagar and it required Cay, Qrrl Toq, and a human male Jedi named Oron just to hold him down. Ulic was obviously well. He was not exhausted or weakened in any way. The fight was some time after he killed Satal, definitely not the same day.

You lose. Ulic was performing as best as he could.

And, if you'll read the comic, it's obvious that Kun didn't shoot her with the same beam, since it didn't rip right through her. I doubt she's made of stronger stuff than Sadow's beast. This would, of course, make sense given that Kun knew Ulic to be the greater threat. All he had to do was incapacitate her for the time being.



Ooh, feat wars and logical fallacies!

Okay. When either of these two can toy with and pwn centuries-and-millenia-old Jedi Masters, freeze a senate of millions of beings, etc etc...



5000 years after his death and as a spirit. Spirits are weaker than flesh and blood, and they lose power over time as evidenced by Obi-Wan's inability to continue to appear to Luke, etc.



Nonsense. Exar and Ulic were only equal, for a time, in lightsaber ability. Exar had more artifacts, more Force potential, and more knowledge of the Force than Ulic ever did. Remember, Ulic never learned Sith Magic.



Okay, take away Sidious' arms and legs "and we'd see a far less uber Sidious."

Of course you can't prove that, because it'd require evidence and logic. Gut feelings are worthless in a debate.

1. And Mandalore was only the head of a warrior sect who've been known to kill Jedi. By that logic, nothing special about Revan

2. which begs the question: How did Ulic use that amulet in DlotS? How did Exar not blow Ulic away from the start? Or Aleema for that matter?

3. As best he could: Which's still after exertion, using Sith power and poison, with possible injury. And apparently Kun could just fire without any reload? Why not blow Aleema to bits and then kill Ulic? He came there to kill them

4. When Odan-Urr ever showed himself to be anything special instead of an impotent weakling...

5. Proof spirits are weaker than flesh and blood? Unlike Obi-wan, Exar had the power of the Massassi, not to mention a place that was a focal point of his power

6. Right, because amulets and artifacts are as part of someone as arms and legs...

As it's already been stated, Luke and Ragnos are pretty much equal as far as we can tell, though it's a little shady as all the info on Ragnos is conjecture and assumptions. Still, I think they'd make good opponents for each other.

Now, Kun vs Sids is very much the same. I'm going to give Kun the benefit of the doubt and say he could win, albeit with some difficulty, in saber to saber combat, especially considering that Sids lost to DE Luke, though that may have been after Luke's power was augmented, which would only help him. Still, Sids has the single most impressive show of force lightning in the history of it's use, not to mention the draining of the people of Byss.

With all this being said, it comes to which of either duo will defeat his opponent first so they can two team the other. I really think this ends a stalemate, but I'm leaning towards Kun and Ragnos only because Sid's will have a tough time keeping Kun at bay (unless of course he manges to get a force storm off, in which case i think sids might win, but again, it's unlikely.)

1. And Mandalore was only the head of a warrior sect who've been known to kill Jedi. By that logic, nothing special about Revan

WTF? When we were debating Revan against Sidious you claimed that Revan beating Mandalore meant nothing since he was simply a non-force sensitive human warrior. But somehow when it supports your statement, Ulic doing the same thing actually counts? Can we say "hypocrisy"?


4. When Odan-Urr ever showed himself to be anything special instead of an impotent weakling...

Yeah, he's only a virtual Jedi sage and a veteran of the Great Hyperspace Wars. What a weakling...


5. Proof spirits are weaker than flesh and blood? Unlike Obi-wan, Exar had the power of the Massassi, not to mention a place that was a focal point of his power

Let's see:

- Obi-Wan and Yoda as spirits could not/would not challenge Vader and/or Sidious.

- Ajunta Pall's spirit was overcome by Revan and his crew, despite Pall being an incredible warrior and Sith Lord.

- Force spirits do not retain the living component of their former bodies. If you paid attention during ESB and read the literature, you would see that life creates AND sustains the Force. Without a body to sustain it, the force apparation weakens obviously.

- Sidious' spirit didn't WTFpwn Luke and co. but instead fled to a viable body.

So really, it makes no sense that a spirit would be equal to or stronger than the real deal at all. And until you have proof to support the idea that they are the same strength (When the evidence does not support this at all) you need to stow it.


6. Right, because amulets and artifacts are as part of someone as arms and legs...

Do you have -any- idea of the power levels of ancient Sith Lords without their equipment? No, you don't. Exar Kun wasn't a Sith Lord, drawing on the dark side until he had an amulet. Sadow and others always had them on. Since you cannot specify how much the amulets empower them (Not that it would matter anyways since they would presumably always be using them) the point is moot.

How much of "the most powerful of the most powerful" is conjecture? We know he was not just good, but purely dominant. We know no one dared to attack him on his death bed. We know that Ludo Kressh submitted to him as "the Dark Lord" after he came from the dead, we know the Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Exar Kun, and Ulic Qel-Droma all stopped their fighting and submitted to his will. He is described repeatedly as a godlike and terrible foe. He "dominated" over other ancient Sith that could make the Jedi of Revan's time look like children with lightsabers. He ruled unquestioned and with an iron fist over a wealthy Empire for over a hundred years -- an empire where the strong rules. He put "the most powerful Sith Magician of his time"'s head in a jar and still decided to keep him around. His passing into the Dark Side was so powerful, Odan-Urr felt it all the way in REPUBLIC SPACE. From other EU sources, he has a scepter that can drain the force from entire PLANETS even in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion. It can imbue non-force sensitives with force powers and lightsaber abilities. It can cut through buildings with ease.

Don't tell me that all we know is conjecture and assumptions. Use your brain a bit and you'd see that every single of his descriptions is one of absolute titanic power.

I love the logical fallacy of people around here. We have all the logic and evidence suggesting Ragnos was some uber lord over the Dark Side, yet somehow, someway, using some paragon of twisted logic, they assume the very worse out of him. What low showing are you going off of? His defeat to Jaden? His 5000 year old spirit's defeat to Jaden when he possessed a body that was already beaten? His defeat that didn't even kill him?

Funny, truly funny.

How is Luke equal? Because he fired "green lightning"? Because he was shown in the movies? Because he controlled a black hole (a feat duplicated by one of his OWN TIME)? Because he slashed through some Vong?

I'd personally bet on Ragnos do slash through those same Vong, particularly since he is renowned for "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp of the force." And I'd rather face Vong than 20 Sith Lords who were described as "godlike" entities with "titanic" power.



By that same notion, JA Luke, which is after DE Luke, said they would need the entirety of the Jedi Academy's forces to stop Ragnos if he were ressurected. By game mechanics of JK:A, if you beat Tavion the first time, you officially (canonical wording) "thwarted" her plans of ressurecting Ragnos.

Ergo? Ragnos never manifested, he simply had his spirit possess a weakling of a body and likely assumed all the limitations. And yet? The body suddenly had a huge force power augmentation and had a speed bonus you wouldn't believe.

And Kun? The guy who tore holes in temple walls just by blasting them? The guy who froze the entire Senate and casually waltzed his way in? The guy who tossed Sylvar with such ease that it was almost comical? The guy who broke through Vodo's staff that was "stronger than a lightsaber" according to the omniscient narrator? The guy who destroyed a 400 year old spirit that had the ability to instakill other force users? The guy who stockpiled so many secrets of the sith that he could never even use it all? The guy who was practically crowned by "the Dark Lord of the Sith" as the second coming of the Golden Age? The guy that single-handedly required the largest collection of Jedi in history to simultaneously converge on his base of operations?

Yeah, that guy. What logical evidence do you have for Sidious? Force storm? What about the blasts that Exar casted repeatedly that shredded an ancient Sith Alchemical Creature?

Can force storm be focused on a single opponent? Can he use it without taking out the battlefield? Can he do it while Kun brings his double-bladed lightsaber down on him? If he can't, it's not within the rules. And the draining of the planet is hardly so impressive when we see Tavion doing the same thing to a number of planets with the scepter. I personally think what Zonama Sekot and Nihilus did were far more impressive.



Except that he also walked into the Star Forge and beat down a Jedi renowned for his battle prowess WHILE he was boosted by the power of the Starforge.



How does this retort to his point?

Oh wait, it doesn't. It's irrelevant misdirection and logical fallacy. You're arguing with what's literally portrayed and is shown and direct inductive observations from the text.

A better question would be if Sidious had "discovered the darkest secrets" of the Sith, how come he didn't use the artifacts and other paraphenelia? He'd be stupid to not use stuff that boosted his power. Ergo, he either a) doesn't have them, b) is retarded, or c) the DE Sourcebook is outdated and has been shown redundant (e.g. mentioning the Sith Order as 2000 years old instead of the 5000+ that it really is like in later canon.)



The proof is in Obi-Wan. He's stated a fact. Spirits like Obi-Wan and Anakin get weaker over time and are no longer able to influence and visit the living.

Law of debates tells me you have to disprove this. If he was stronger in death than life, how come he didn't use blasts that he did in life? How come he didn't use the instakill attacks he's SHOWN to have? Logic dictates he isn't stronger. You arguing against first order logic shows you're a fanboy.



STFU.

Did you not read the first post? Artifacts are perfectly legal in this fight.

Tell me, place Kun's power EXACTLY with the artifacts and show observed evidence for this. Show me where it says something to the effect that "an amulet increases force power exponentially" or something like that. I'm confident you won't find something to that effect, why? BECAUSE I READ THE COMICS.

So stop griping about amulet this, artifact that. The listed parameters are already in the first post. You trying to change them is simply trying to load the die so Sidious and Luke wins.

Guess what?

Feat wars don't make someone win. By that logic, because Sidious never created superweapons with the force, he's not anywhere near as powerful as Naga Sadow. Or because he didn't rule UNQUESTIONED, and was never dethroned, over an Empire of Sith under their "golden age" he'll never touch Ragnos.

Same concept. Silly conclusions.

Zee pwnage!

Originally posted by Illustrious
How much of "the most powerful of the most powerful" is conjecture? We know he was not just good, but purely dominant. We know no one dared to attack him on his death bed. We know that Ludo Kressh submitted to him as "the Dark Lord" after he came from the dead, we know the Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Exar Kun, and Ulic Qel-Droma all stopped their fighting and submitted to his will. He is described repeatedly as a godlike and terrible foe. He "dominated" over other ancient Sith that could make the Jedi of Revan's time look like children with lightsabers. He ruled unquestioned and with an iron fist over a wealthy Empire for over a hundred years -- an empire where the strong rules. He put "the most powerful Sith Magician of his time"'s head in a jar and still decided to keep him around. His passing into the Dark Side was so powerful, Odan-Urr felt it all the way in REPUBLIC SPACE. From other EU sources, he has a scepter that can drain the force from entire PLANETS even in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion. It can imbue non-force sensitives with force powers and lightsaber abilities. It can cut through buildings with ease.

Don't tell me that all we know is conjecture and assumptions. Use your brain a bit and you'd see that every single of his descriptions is one of absolute titanic power.

I love the logical fallacy of people around here. We have all the logic and evidence suggesting Ragnos was some uber lord over the Dark Side, yet somehow, someway, using some paragon of twisted logic, they assume the very worse out of him. What low showing are you going off of? His defeat to Jaden? His 5000 year old spirit's defeat to Jaden when he possessed a body that was already beaten? His defeat that didn't even kill him?

Funny, truly funny.

How is Luke equal? Because he fired "green lightning"? Because he was shown in the movies? Because he controlled a black hole (a feat duplicated by one of his OWN TIME)? Because he slashed through some Vong?

I'd personally bet on Ragnos do slash through those same Vong, particularly since he is renowned for "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp of the force." And I'd rather face Vong than 20 Sith Lords who were described as "godlike" entities with "titanic" power.



By that same notion, JA Luke, which is after DE Luke, said they would need the entirety of the Jedi Academy's forces to stop Ragnos if he were ressurected. By game mechanics of JK:A, if you beat Tavion the first time, you officially (canonical wording) "thwarted" her plans of ressurecting Ragnos.

Ergo? Ragnos never manifested, he simply had his spirit possess a weakling of a body and likely assumed all the limitations. And yet? The body suddenly had a huge force power augmentation and had a speed bonus you wouldn't believe.

And Kun? The guy who tore holes in temple walls just by blasting them? The guy who froze the entire Senate and casually waltzed his way in? The guy who tossed Sylvar with such ease that it was almost comical? The guy who broke through Vodo's staff that was "stronger than a lightsaber" according to the omniscient narrator? The guy who destroyed a 400 year old spirit that had the ability to instakill other force users? The guy who stockpiled so many secrets of the sith that he could never even use it all? The guy who was practically crowned by "the Dark Lord of the Sith" as the second coming of the Golden Age? The guy that single-handedly required the largest collection of Jedi in history to simultaneously converge on his base of operations?

Yeah, that guy. What logical evidence do you have for Sidious? Force storm? What about the blasts that Exar casted repeatedly that shredded an ancient Sith Alchemical Creature?

Can force storm be focused on a single opponent? Can he use it without taking out the battlefield? Can he do it while Kun brings his double-bladed lightsaber down on him? If he can't, it's not within the rules. And the draining of the planet is hardly so impressive when we see Tavion doing the same thing to a number of planets with the scepter. I personally think what Zonama Sekot and Nihilus did were far more impressive.



Except that he also walked into the Star Forge and beat down a Jedi renowned for his battle prowess WHILE he was boosted by the power of the Starforge.

How does this retort to his point?

Oh wait, it doesn't. It's irrelevant misdirection and logical fallacy. You're arguing with what's literally portrayed and is shown and direct inductive observations from the text.

A better question would be if Sidious had "discovered the darkest secrets" of the Sith, how come he didn't use the artifacts and other paraphenelia? He'd be stupid to not use stuff that boosted his power. Ergo, he either a) doesn't have them, b) is retarded, or c) the DE Sourcebook is outdated and has been shown redundant (e.g. mentioning the Sith Order as 2000 years old instead of the 5000+ that it really is like in later canon.)



The proof is in Obi-Wan. He's stated a fact. Spirits like Obi-Wan and Anakin get weaker over time and are no longer able to influence and visit the living.

Law of debates tells me you have to disprove this. If he was stronger in death than life, how come he didn't use blasts that he did in life? How come he didn't use the instakill attacks he's SHOWN to have? Logic dictates he isn't stronger. You arguing against first order logic shows you're a fanboy.



STFU.

Did you not read the first post? Artifacts are perfectly legal in this fight.

Tell me, place Kun's power EXACTLY with the artifacts and show observed evidence for this. Show me where it says something to the effect that "an amulet increases force power exponentially" or something like that. I'm confident you won't find something to that effect, why? BECAUSE I READ THE COMICS.

So stop griping about amulet this, artifact that. The listed parameters are already in the first post. You trying to change them is simply trying to load the die so Sidious and Luke wins.

Guess what?

Feat wars don't make someone win. By that logic, because Sidious never created superweapons with the force, he's not anywhere near as powerful as Naga Sadow. Or because he didn't rule UNQUESTIONED, and was never dethroned, over an Empire of Sith under their "golden age" he'll never touch Ragnos.

Same concept. Silly conclusions.

1. Right, because Palpatine, exar, revan and Bane were clearly shown partying in the background of Ziost. Palpatine can also do exaxtly of what you just said as well and he did it without artifacts whose origins are shadowy at best. We know Palpatine's death reduced the Dark Side and he learned Ragnos's darkest secrets, among others. We know Sidious's fight with Luke was so powerful every force sensitive in the galaxy felt it. We've seen Palpatine do far more than Ragnos. He tears a FLEET to pieces with what is described as the greatest weapon of the Sith. And everyone neglects to mention how Ragnos's stagnation drove the Empire to what it was upon his death....and in an empire of such weaklings, no wonder he prevailed. With whiners like Kressh, delusional fools like Sadow and random people who get wiped out by Masassi...

2. His spirit was beaten by Jaden, with his so called uber sceptre. And yep, his spirit which had 5000 years to focus power on Korriban.

3. Ahhh, how we ignore what I post....we've seen Luke become a pure conduit to the Force, and show greater saber skills than anyone else. We've seen him slice through armies.

4. You'd rather face twenty Sith Lord swho get owned by Massassi? Really now...

5. Yes, explain how Kun never used that blast again-oooh, and his feat was duplicated by a pack of PADAWANS! Don't he feel special- He killed two Jedi who never did a damn thing of power...Give me a break, you're comparing killing a beast to destroying a fleet? The same type of beast killed by a small group of Padawans? Why didn't those godly Sith use that storm? Would've saved their asses

6. Sidious himself stated he could achieve what he did with his own power....HMMMMMMM, destroying fleets with 'A Sith Lord's greatest weapon' and sucking the life out of millions and using force lightning to overcome fifty or so people.

7. Ah, yes....because Jedi ghosts are the same as Sith spirits who use a different technique and have places to focus their power.

7. Y'know what makes Sidious automatically superior to Sadow? He used a force storm. That's it. If Sadow could, he have destroyed the Tetan fleet....and given that Sadow was with about fifteen or so other Sith lords at the time...may've helped instead of sacrificing his empire and he'd have killed Teta and been able to recover his empire....in fact, if KUN could do that, he'd never have needed to run and hide. You can whine and moan about 'feat wars', but that's only because Kun has never done a thing to match up to Sidious. Mara herself said that Sidious would've regarded Kun as a definition of failure...and Kun's only reaction was a spoiled baby shout of "But he's dead!" Upon it being pointed out so was he, Kun instantly shut his mouth.
Yknow, DE created Ulic Qel-Droma? And a helluva lotta stuff for later on? Face it: You can throw around ruling Sith Empires when those Sith were shown as NOTHING. They were beaten on THREE PLANETS. You have Kun, trapped by Padawans...and Sidious in DE, only defeated by using the full fury of the light side on him, only permanently defeated by the Jedi of eons holding his spirit to the Dark Side, you have him using the greatest weapon of the Dark side to tear down a fleet, you have him sucking the life of millions and learning the greatest secrets of the Sith, Jedi, among many others, you have Sidious who unlike Kun never used amulets to do what he did. Do you always have to fall back on artifacts to show Kun's strength? Anything he did on his own truly? When did any Sith Lord exhibit any power that destroyed a fleet with a storm that was created by ripping a hole in the faric of the galaxy? And to this day, a Force storm is possibly the strongest ability known...and name another Sith Lord who managed to curse an entire bloodline

To begin with, the evidence about Ragnos is, as much as you may not like it, shaky. First off, all those quotes you posted proves that he was the strongest of the ancient sith, but I never argued that, I do however argue the fact that these seems to make him unbeatable. I mean, the only real show of power we've seen from the ancient sith is from Sadow, whose two biggest feats, the star rip and the illusions, were done with extra equip, his ship and the meditation sphere in this case. Now, that being said, there is no evidence of Ragnos being able to reproduce these feats sans equip. Yeah, with them he could do it, and better most likely, but beyond that, we have nothing. The scepter is also dubious, as a full on blast only knocked down Katarn, and this assumes he goes into battle with the scepter charged.

Next, Luke's feats are very impressive. Cut threw some vong? Try some thousands, then beat elite slayers, then beat the supreme overlord. And has used force blasts powerful enough to throw stardestroyers around.

And as far as Kun's concerned I don't know why Ragnos was brought up. And Kun's blasting open of walls is one thing, Sidious taking down whole ships is another, and yes he can focus it. In fact, he was about to do it against Luke until Luke (augmented) made it backfire, though I'm sure Lightsnake could give you a more accurate description of events. And Kun froze the senate, which was a few thousand beings that were overwhelmingly non-force users. Plus, do you really think this helps him? It's not like he'll be able to freeze either Luke or Sids. Also, if you're going by what the narrator says about the staff, then you must agree that when the narrator says that Sidious is the greatest sith lord of all time, it's also true.

Where's the quote that says Ragnos' empire made them weaklings?

Dude, your post is about 5% fact and 95% opinion. Want me to go over them for you? 'Kay.



Irrelevant misdrection, logical fallacy.



He can do exactly what I said? Like "dominating" over the GOLDEN AGE of the SITH? (Instead of a few straggling dark siders?). Nope, this statement is an outright lie.

Artifacts that are shadowy? What part about Sith Created artifacts are shadowy? This is you interjecting your own opinion to your point. Strawman. Logical fallcy.



Where's the quote that he learned "Ragnos'" darkest secrets? We know that Ragnos' death reduced the dark side too.



We've also seen Han Solo do more than Ragnos, does that indicate he's stronger?

Quantitative Comparison. Feat Wars. More logical fallacy.



This helps him in a personal fight how, again? The Star Forge is described as the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. Ragnos is described as the most powerful of the most powerful (yes, two definitives in the same sentence, figures!).

And where does it state he "tore a fleet to pieces" in the text? Grandiose language, personal bias.



Where's this in the text? Nowhere? Yup? Because you interjected your opinion. This isn't "Star Wars according to Lightsnake." Present facts and deductive reasoning.

More logical fallacy. And guilt by association, Logical Fallacy again!



The whiner like Kressh stood up to Sadow, who created superweapons and creatures that later generations of Sith all patented their powers from. If you want to argue that they are whiners or delusional, sure, but you using that to detract from them is ridiculous.

More personal bias, appeal to ridicule: logical fallacy again.

In a span of a short paragraph, you commited 6 cases of logical fallacy and 2 more of personal bias, which is another fallacy in logic. Want me to expand on your 8 instances of bullshit pulled out of your ass?



http://www.jedimoves.com/files/center/console/tavion_scepter.jpg

Unless you're arguing that Ragnos grew some ****, it's not exactly Ragnos, now is it?

Now spirits get stronger over 5000 years? Prove up! And why did Sidious' spirit scurry away just moments after his death? Oh wait... more fanboy BS, right?



We've seen Jacen become an Avatar of the force, we've seen Kyp beat a Leviathan. "OMG, Luke never did that! You're ignoring the point that Jacen and Kyp are both > Luke!"

Burden of Proof Logical Fallacy. What is this? 9? 10?



Which Sith Lords got "owned" by Massassi? Considering Sadow created the Massassi, he certainly didn't.

Niced Biased Sample. Hey, what do we know, more logical fallacy!!!



His blast that could cut through rock, beasts, and destroy Nadd's spirit was duplicated by padawans?

Forget logical fallacy, you're just f*cking lying here.



LS: "The ancient Sith can't use storm!"
Me: "How do you know?!"
LS: "Because they never were shown using the storm!"
Me: "Why do you think they were never shown?"
LS: "Because they can't!"

Yay for circular logic and begging the question! Aww screw it, I lost count, you're argument is beyond hopeless.

They are never shown to take craps, eat meat, or sleep on their sides either, does that mean they can't?



Show me the distinction. I asked for your proof, and you provided none. You're asking me to prove a negative. Burden of Proof fallacy.



That's like me saying... "Y'know, Sadow had the capacity to destroy a star, that makes me think he's superior."

It's bullshit. He could have also made the star go supernova and end it right there, but he didn't. Sidious could also have used his eyes and not get benchpressed into a reactor core, but he didn't.

The fact that you're resorting to feat wars (another logical fallacy) is just being immature and showing your inability to debate for a damn.



You mean that infiltrating an empire by becoming its Chancellor is akin to TAKING IT BY FORCE?

Weren't you the one bagging on Freedon Nadd because he made people believe he was a god? Way to make Hasty Generalizations to save Sidious.

More logical fallacy and more fanboy bullshit.



I don't even think I have to mention this.

By this same whim: Sidious couldn't even rule over one Darth Vader when he was nothing, hell, he was a one-armed guy in a mechanical suit.



Yes, I guess you left out that Luke and Vodo helped there too. Or that The Sith had already had a fair time blowing each other up!

Way to add more nails to your coffin dude.



And btw, here's the best part:

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN RETORTED TO MY POINTS!

You've effectively spent the last post doing misdirections because you can't counter my points.

I especially like where you went "oh, he did rule over the Sith Empire.. BUT they were nothing!"

A liar, a fanboy, and a piss-poor debator. I'm done with you.

EDIT

Originally posted by Illustrious
Where's the quote that says Ragnos' empire made them weaklings?

Dude, your post is about 5% fact and 95% opinion. Want me to go over them for you? 'Kay.



Irrelevant misdrection, logical fallacy.



He can do exactly what I said? Like "dominating" over the GOLDEN AGE of the SITH? (Instead of a few straggling dark siders?). Nope, this statement is an outright lie.

Artifacts that are shadowy? What part about Sith Created artifacts are shadowy? This is you interjecting your own opinion to your point. Strawman. Logical fallcy.



Where's the quote that he learned "Ragnos'" darkest secrets? We know that Ragnos' death reduced the dark side too.



We've also seen Han Solo do more than Ragnos, does that indicate he's stronger?

Quantitative Comparison. Feat Wars. More logical fallacy.



This helps him in a personal fight how, again? The Star Forge is described as the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. Ragnos is described as the most powerful of the most powerful (yes, two definitives in the same sentence, figures!).

And where does it state he "tore a fleet to pieces" in the text? Grandiose language, personal bias.



Where's this in the text? Nowhere? Yup? Because you interjected your opinion. This isn't "Star Wars according to Lightsnake." Present facts and deductive reasoning.

More logical fallacy. And guilt by association, Logical Fallacy again!



The whiner like Kressh stood up to Sadow, who created superweapons and creatures that later generations of Sith all patented their powers from. If you want to argue that they are whiners or delusional, sure, but you using that to detract from them is ridiculous.

More personal bias, appeal to ridicule: logical fallacy again.

In a span of a short paragraph, you commited 6 cases of logical fallacy and 2 more of personal bias, which is another fallacy in logic. Want me to expand on your 8 instances of bullshit pulled out of your ass?



http://www.jedimoves.com/files/center/console/tavion_scepter.jpg

Unless you're arguing that Ragnos grew some ****, it's not exactly Ragnos, now is it?

Now spirits get stronger over 5000 years? Prove up! And why did Sidious' spirit scurry away just moments after his death? Oh wait... more fanboy BS, right?



We've seen Jacen become an Avatar of the force, we've seen Kyp beat a Leviathan. "OMG, Luke never did that! You're ignoring the point that Jacen and Kyp are both > Luke!"

Burden of Proof Logical Fallacy. What is this? 9? 10?



Which Sith Lords got "owned" by Massassi? Considering Sadow created the Massassi, he certainly didn't.

Niced Biased Sample. Hey, what do we know, more logical fallacy!!!



His blast that could cut through rock, beasts, and destroy Nadd's spirit was duplicated by padawans?

Forget logical fallacy, you're just f*cking lying here.



LS: "The ancient Sith can't use storm!"
Me: "How do you know?!"
LS: "Because they never were shown using the storm!"
Me: "Why do you think they were never shown?"
LS: "Because they can't!"

Yay for circular logic and begging the question! Aww screw it, I lost count, you're argument is beyond hopeless.

They are never shown to take craps, eat meat, or sleep on their sides either, does that mean they can't?



Show me the distinction. I asked for your proof, and you provided none. You're asking me to prove a negative. Burden of Proof fallacy.



That's like me saying... "Y'know, Sadow had the capacity to destroy a star, that makes me think he's superior."

It's bullshit. He could have also made the star go supernova and end it right there, but he didn't. Sidious could also have used his eyes and not get benchpressed into a reactor core, but he didn't.

The fact that you're resorting to feat wars (another logical fallacy) is just being immature and showing your inability to debate for a damn.



You mean that infiltrating an empire by becoming its Chancellor is akin to TAKING IT BY FORCE?

Weren't you the one bagging on Freedon Nadd because he made people believe he was a god? Way to make Hasty Generalizations to save Sidious.

More logical fallacy and more fanboy bullshit.



I don't even think I have to mention this.

By this same whim: Sidious couldn't even rule over one Darth Vader when he was nothing, hell, he was a one-armed guy in a mechanical suit.



Yes, I guess you left out that Luke and Vodo helped there too. Or that The Sith had already had a fair time blowing each other up!

Way to add more nails to your coffin dude.



And btw, here's the best part:

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN RETORTED TO MY POINTS!

You've effectively spent the last post doing misdirections because you can't counter my points.

I especially like where you went "oh, he did rule over the Sith Empire.. BUT they were nothing!"

A liar, a fanboy, and a piss-poor debator. I'm done with you.

1. Gee, it took them a WEEK to fall apart after Ragnos died, maybe less....

2. C'mon, where did how godlike they were count towards later eras?

3. A few straggling Darksiders? Ignoring the massive sith academies he erected, the Prophets/dark warriors/Dark Side Elite/.Inquisitors and HANDS...

4. Proof Ragnos's death reduced the dark side. And considering it was said he learned the dakrest secrets of the Sith ghosts on Korriban...

5. Was Han a force user of any reknown? Logical fallacy. Irrelevant point.

6. Ragnos still had living flesh. He lost. Period. And from EMpire's End, it's stated the Sith created Korriban to focus Dark Side powers...and the ghosts had used that.

7. We've seen Luke become an avatar of the Force. What's your point? And thanks for undermining Kun for me. Him killing a Leviathan really doesn't seem to impressive now.

8. I meant his feat of killing a Leviathan wa sduplicated by Padawans.

9. When did Sith Lords get owned by Massassi? When Sadow decided to escape and had his Massassi kill the other Sith on the ships? When Horak and Dol-Gar Ram died?

10. Now, if Sadow and his....fifteen or so Sith Lords could use a Force storm, would they not have done so when faced with pursuing ships from Teta and the Republic INSTEAD of offering the entire empire as a sacrifice? Logic, logic.

11. Well, when you ignore Sadow used a super weapon to destroy a star....a winner is he!

12. Exar tried the stealth thing. He failed. Managed to **** up horribly because of Ulic.

13. Yes, how quickly we forget Vader was destined to kill Sidious and was his dog for twenty years. Better than being trapped by Padawans. The Sith'd already had a fair time blowing eachother up? The fight ended when Ludo died, rather quickly. Luke and Vodo helped? AFTER Kun walked into an obvious trap.

14. Show me where any Sith Lord of the old empire in Golden Age and Fall proved to be worth their salt. They lost on THREE WORLDS.

It's funny, how when I provide passages you seem to say 'I'm done with you.'

Run along, hypocrite.

When did I say he was unbeatable. Don't put words in my mouth without being able to back it up.



And there's no evidence Luke could have hacked away the Vong armies without a lightsaber, or that Sidious could have taken over the Republic without political influences. Are you done with speculation?

What part of omniscient narration calling them godlike with titanic power, or other individuals proclaiming the ancients as individuals that would "dwarf" and make the jedi look like "children" with lightsabers is unclear? What's unclear that their sith techniques (include various instakill methods) and artifacts make generations of individuals become uber foes? What's unclear about their remarkable alchemical prowess in creating beasts of war and superweapons that can blow up stars with a wave of a hand?

Guess what? With those quotes and facts, the burden of proof is on you to produce irrefutable evidence to deny it. You haven't.

It's about as shaky as arguing that Sidious didn't actually rule over the galaxy, or that Phoenix isn't actually the primal force of creation in the Marvel Universe. You can't argue with the stated canon unless you have irrefutable evidence.



Where did it ever say a full blast? We know it absorbed the force from entire nexu and planets, and that it leveled a building. Are you trying to argue that Katarn has a strong consistency that that? Are you trying to claim that after infusing the force to previously NON FORCE SENSITIVES, that the scepter had full power? Logic?



So wait, having someone force your power to backfire is somehow more impressive than freezing thousands of being simultaneously? And yet, you attempt to throw around petty degradations such as overwhelming non-force users?

Do you have any evidence that force users are so much harder to freeze that Kun wouldn't have been able to do it? I seem to recall that those frozen force users didn't exactly move much more than the senators.



Read what Borbarad mentions about the passage. If you won't, I can always rephrase it for you.

Later versions of canon can easily be retconned. DE acted under the premise that the Sith Order was 2000 years old. In fact, it was later adjusted that the Sith Order was much older, and that the golden age was actually 5000 years before the events in question.

Need I remind you that the Golden Age describes the absolute peak of the power of the Sith (even more evidence for the point).

The point is moot because the circumstances involving the passage is retconned. As Borbarad mentioned, wouldn't you say after watching the first movie that no one could've beaten Neo? Would you say the same after watching Smith kick his ass?

Originally posted by Illustrious
When did I say he was unbeatable. Don't put words in my mouth without being able to back it up.



And there's no evidence Luke could have hacked away the Vong armies without a lightsaber, or that Sidious could have taken over the Republic without political influences. Are you done with speculation?

What part of omniscient narration calling them godlike with titanic power, or other individuals proclaiming the ancients as individuals that would "dwarf" and make the jedi look like "children" with lightsabers is unclear? What's unclear that their sith techniques (include various instakill methods) and artifacts make generations of individuals become uber foes? What's unclear about their remarkable alchemical prowess in creating beasts of war and superweapons that can blow up stars with a wave of a hand?

Guess what? With those quotes and facts, the burden of proof is on you to produce irrefutable evidence to deny it. You haven't.

It's about as shaky as arguing that Sidious didn't actually rule over the galaxy, or that Phoenix isn't actually the primal force of creation in the Marvel Universe. You can't argue with the stated canon unless you have irrefutable evidence.



Where did it ever say a full blast? We know it absorbed the force from entire nexu and planets, and that it leveled a building. Are you trying to argue that Katarn has a strong consistency that that? Are you trying to claim that after infusing the force to previously NON FORCE SENSITIVES, that the scepter had full power? Logic?



So wait, having someone force your power to backfire is somehow more impressive than freezing thousands of being simultaneously? And yet, you attempt to throw around petty degradations such as overwhelming non-force users?

Do you have any evidence that force users are so much harder to freeze that Kun wouldn't have been able to do it? I seem to recall that those frozen force users didn't exactly move much more than the senators.



Read what Borbarad mentions about the passage. If you won't, I can always rephrase it for you.

Later versions of canon can easily be retconned. DE acted under the premise that the Sith Order was 2000 years old. In fact, it was later adjusted that the Sith Order was much older, and that the golden age was actually 5000 years before the events in question.

Need I remind you that the Golden Age describes the absolute peak of the power of the Sith (even more evidence for the point).

The point is moot because the circumstances involving the passage is retconned. As Borbarad mentioned, wouldn't you say after watching the first movie that no one could've beaten Neo? Would you say the same after watching Smith kick his ass?

1. Great, who can't Ragnos beat then? And Luke hacked his way through a dark Jedi army, a stormtrooper army AND a Vong army at seperate points in time.

2. What omniscient part of the narraration? Only the part that declares the following: Waves of power and emotion poured off of the peerless antagonists, sending shudders through the vast warship from stem to stern. The overwhelming atmosphere of the battle struck the crew almost instantly; some collapsed at their battle stations, insensate and traumatized, while others fell dead where they stood. All throughout the galaxy those who were sensitive to the Force could feel the violence of the clash of titans, could feel the intensity of the test of wills.

And it describes Palpatine and Luke as 'Godlike'....and 'The godlike emperor conqueored himself'

3. And what is the stated canon then, Illustrious? Nothing ever says Ragnos was the strongest Sith Lord ever.

4. do I have to post the quote saying the full fury of the Force was used on Palpatine by the sKywalkers? Or that all the Jedi held him in the dark side? AGAIN? Please.

5. Those forzen force users were killing Kun's Massassi and advancing on him.

6. *Yawn* DE is still canon and there've been no retcons...the most recent pieces of canon still feature it...and operated under the assumption the SE was 2000 years old? HAH! they never give a date! The NEw Essential Chronology is the FIRST source to ever state that, effectively debunking this 25,000 years stuff.

7. Notice that golden age was described for the SITH EMPIRE OF THAT TIME which fell immediately after Naga took the crown.

8. I'd say 'Wait for the third movie' where Neo shows himself to be stronger than Smith and effectively sacrifices himself to destroy him, giving him life as a messiah should

1) Reading through the garbage that passes for your post, Lightsnake, I just surmised that you claimed Sidious could do everything Ragnos did.

http://home.comcast.net/~k_laster/orly.jpeg

Prove up. It'll be quite amusing to watch.

2) His spirit was beaten by Jaden... after being 5000 years old and ergo weaker and in a weakling's body. Spirits lose power over time, face it.

3) Greater saber skills than anyone else? Yeah, maybe anyone else of his time except Vader, who toys with him and seems to throw the fight in ROTJ. Throw him up against practically anyone from the PT, however, and he'll get tooled.

4) It's more accurate to say they get betrayed and overwhelmed by Massassi. But it's better to get owned by a horde of Massassi than to get chucked into a reactor by a one-armed cyborg.

5) Because he never needed to. He's never gone up against a life-threatening opponent afterwards. And to say that he couldn't if needed is pure, biased bullshit. No evidence. No logic. Just fanboyism.

And for the last time, the creature killed by Exar Kun is not a leviathan. It is unnamed in the comic and is mentioned elsewhere to be a "sith wyrm."

Yes, he killed two Jedi who display more impressive force abilities than Yoda, but "OMG THEY NEVER DO ANYTHING OF POWER."

6) Oh. Because Sidious says he's godlike then it must be true. Because arrogance is not a prime character trait in darksiders.

7) Prove it.

8) You know what makes Sadow superior to Sidious? He invented a weapon by which one could channel the force to rip the core from a star and trigger a supernova. He invented another weapon by which he could project illusions that could fight onto the battlefield. He created Sith amulets. He is commonly noted as one of the Sith's greatest magicians and alchemists.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
httjp://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.pg

That's why a Force Storm would've been irrelevant. You actually think it would've done dick-all to those Jedi? Put Sidious in his place and they would've done a lot worse than merely throw it back at him.

Prove that Kun needed amulets to do anything. Prove what Sidious learned from the Sith after 5000 years of their empire's destruction. Prove his trove of knowledge is anywhere near what Kun acquired, described by the narrator as "more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use."

You can't. There is no proof. Just fanboy bias.

"Oh gee, it took a week for Sidious' grand armee of Dark Siders to fall apart after his death, maybe less..."

Great job.



How godlike was Sidious when he was on all-fours and saberless against Mace? Making more circumstantial excuses.



Like how you retorted to my actual point... . Way to strawman the place.



Since when does Sith ghosts on Korriban indicate he learned the darkest secrets of Ragnos specifically? And when you undermine the power of the ancient sith, it doesn't do well for someone who gets his power and knowledge from him, does it?



I'm glad you can recognize your OWN logical fallacy. Good job. -pats head-



LMFAO. Look how you change the parameters. Somehow living flesh quantifies his power when you argued earlier that the spirits were stronger than the living.

What hypocrisy.



He was never cited to become "one with the force." "OMG, Jacen must be stronger!"

Such is the logic of one Lightsnake?

And when did Kun kill a Leviathan? Do you know what a Leviathan looks like? Was it stated as a Leviathan? Way to show off that nonexistent knowledge.



Again, see above.

"zOMG, the Deathstar obliterated an entire planet! Deathstar > Sidious!"



Were those two ever called given the title of Sith Lords? You mean the same Massassi that fought Jedi and Republic forces to a stalemate on the ground front while 90% of their ranks were actually Illusions?



If Sadow could have destroyed the nearby star, wouldn't he have done that instead of sacrificing the empire? He was overconfident, I'll admit, just like Sidious was when he was benchpressed down a reactor.

Regardless of what you claim, getting thrown down a reactor core by a maimed cripple (wow, double jeopardy) is not a good showing.



No, it's more like when you ignore the fact you have no ability to quantify his power without his toys, assume he fights naked, and have no ammunition to debunk the narrators description, a winner is you!



Is that why he decided to say "screw it" and just waltz into the senate? Face it, Sidious had superior tact, but that doesn't make him the superior fighter.



He wasn't trapped simply by padawans, I love how you point out the fallacy in that statement, and you still use it. Fact of the matter is he got benchpressed because of his stupidity. Ever thought the prophecy was stated BECAUSE (not in spite of) his stupidity? Oh wait, nope, because Sidious is infallable.



Show me how Sidious is worth his salt? He was put on his ass by Mace Windu, benchpressed down a reactor core by a cripple, had his hand hewn by someone who had submitted to him, and was shot in the back by a nonforce sensitive.

Why do you make excuses for one party but not the other? Man up and profess.



Really Lightsnake, you arguing anyone is a hypocrite isn't the smartest recourse. You want to see how many people have found hypocrisy in your argument?

Yes, you commited about 20 logical fallacies in your last post alone, your only ability to point out one of mine was when I mocked your own logic.

Run along now.

Originally posted by IKC
1) Reading through the garbage that passes for your post, Lightsnake, I just surmised that you claimed Sidious could do everything Ragnos did.

http://home.comcast.net/~k_laster/orly.jpeg

Prove up. It'll be quite amusing to watch.

2) His spirit was beaten by Jaden... after being 5000 years old and ergo weaker and in a weakling's body. Spirits lose power over time, face it.

3) Greater saber skills than anyone else? Yeah, maybe anyone else of his time except Vader, who toys with him and seems to throw the fight in ROTJ. Throw him up against practically anyone from the PT, however, and he'll get tooled.

4) It's more accurate to say they get betrayed and overwhelmed by Massassi. But it's better to get owned by a horde of Massassi than to get chucked into a reactor by a one-armed cyborg.

5) Because he never needed to. He's never gone up against a life-threatening opponent afterwards. And to say that he couldn't if needed is pure, biased bullshit. No evidence. No logic. Just fanboyism.

And for the last time, the creature killed by Exar Kun is not a leviathan. It is unnamed in the comic and is mentioned elsewhere to be a "sith wyrm."

Yes, he killed two Jedi who display more impressive force abilities than Yoda, but "OMG THEY NEVER DO ANYTHING OF POWER."

6) Oh. Because Sidious says he's godlike then it must be true. Because arrogance is not a prime character trait in darksiders.

7) Prove it.

8) You know what makes Sadow superior to Sidious? He invented a weapon by which one could channel the force to rip the core from a star and trigger a supernova. He invented another weapon by which he could project illusions that could fight onto the battlefield. He created Sith amulets. He is commonly noted as one of the Sith's greatest magicians and alchemists.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
httjp://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.pg

That's why a Force Storm would've been irrelevant. You actually think it would've done dick-all to those Jedi? Put Sidious in his place and they would've done a lot worse than merely throw it back at him.

Prove that Kun needed amulets to do anything. Prove what Sidious learned from the Sith after 5000 years of their empire's destruction. Prove his trove of knowledge is anywhere near what Kun acquired, described by the narrator as "more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use."

You can't. There is no proof. Just fanboy bias.

1. *Yawn* I posted the passage numerous times.

2. proof Dark side spirits lose power when in Empire's End it's stated the Sith had Korriban to PREVENT that and focus their power?

3. Yes, greater saber skills. He's proved it several times. Just read that little passage above. Palp and Vader's energy resonating was felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy.

4. You mean 'betrayed and killed by your own servants when you have no defenses and many Sith warriors' vs. 'Killed by the Chosen One' when you're already killing someone and using Battle MEditation

5. It looks like a leviathan, uses blister traps....

6. Sidious? That's the narrarator's POV....Sidious is hardly referring to himself IN THIRD PERSON as he dies.

7. Name a SINGLE THING OF POWER Odan and Vodo ever display. Making a saber strong? Great work, a random Jedi named Torr Snappit does that in Ruusan. Odan was worthless in the Hyperspace wars...and Vodo? What'd he do that was more incredible than the Avatar of light and strongest foe'd the darkness'd ever known..

8. Prove what now? Lost that last post.

9. Proof Sadow invented it. Sadow still needed a weapon. Power isn't technological savvy. We never see Kun do a ting without those amulets and until he got them, he was being squeezed to death. Crack open the DS sourcebook or Empire's End where it's directly stated he learned from Korriban and the Sith Worlds and the like.

And y'know what's reeeeal funny? Kun never used ANY of that info and it was apparently found by Palp when he visited Yavin. Shall I post that big essay again? Be more than happy to. Source by the by? Complete Locations

I love this, the longer we go on, the more logical fallacies show up in your argument. You seem to be a bit too slow to catch that you're not exactly helping yourself any by strawmanning points and then retorting with silly suppositions.

Did I argue that Naga Sadow was not the victim of PIS? No. But he certainly wasn't overpowered by DE Luke and co., didn't get his hand HEWN off, and didn't get picked up by a cripple and tossed into a reactor core.

By your logic, since Sadow never had that happen to him, he's superior. Why does your examples only apply to his good showings?

That's like argung "well if Anakin wasn't crippled, or if he wasn't an idiot, and if he reached his potential, he'd be the strongest ever!" Pointless hypothetical and assumptions.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I love this, the longer we go on, the more logical fallacies show up in your argument. You seem to be a bit too slow to catch that you're not exactly helping yourself any by strawmanning points and then retorting with silly suppositions.

Did I argue that Naga Sadow was not the victim of PIS? No. But he certainly wasn't overpowered by DE Luke and co., didn't get his hand HEWN off, and didn't get picked up by a cripple and tossed into a reactor core.

By your logic, since Sadow never had that happen to him, he's superior. Why does your examples only apply to his good showings?

That's like argung "well if Anakin wasn't crippled, or if he wasn't an idiot, and if he reached his potential, he'd be the strongest ever!" Pointless hypothetical and assumptions.
And your worthless hypocrisy is any better? Yes, let's IGNORE the provided passages showing how the entire power of the force was turned on Sidious and brought him into the light! Let's ignore Anakin was, according to Lucas, DESTINED to kill Palpatine.

Did Naga lose all his forces on three worlds and lead people capable of being killed by beast men with knives? Some Gods

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And your worthless hypocrisy is any better? Yes, let's IGNORE the provided passages showing how the entire power of the force was turned on Sidious and brought him into the light! Let's ignore Anakin was, according to Lucas, DESTINED to kill Palpatine.

Did Naga lose all his forces on three worlds and lead people capable of being killed by beast men with knives? Some Gods

Hah, this is quite comical looking at you get riled up. You ignored all the points this time and argued that I'm a hypocrite.

This is coming from the guy that applies one-sided loose constructionist and apologist logic for Sidious, and yet calls the ancient Sith (who are praised lord knows how many times) as "worthless" right?

And somehow, their PIS is far worse than someone who was owned 3, 4 times. Awesome man, truly hilarious. Do standup comedy, your fanboyism knows no bounds.

No comment on your endless list of logical fallacy? Dude, I could write a book with just examples from this thread alone. Thanks. I'm glad you like to turn it personal. Your hypocrisy has been displayed on a far higher level than mine, just ask respected members around here like IKC, Janus, Borbarad, Faunus, and Lord Darkstar.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Hah, this is quite comical looking at you get riled up. You ignored all the points this time and argued that I'm a hypocrite.

This is coming from the guy that applies one-sided loose constructionist and apologist logic for Sidious, and yet calls the ancient Sith (who are praised lord knows how many times) as "worthless" right?

And somehow, their PIS is far worse than someone who was owned 3, 4 times. Awesome man, truly hilarious. Do standup comedy, your fanboyism knows no bounds.

No comment on your endless list of logical fallacy? Dude, I could write a book with just examples from this thread alone. Thanks. I'm glad you like to turn it personal. Your hypocrisy has been displayed on a far higher level than mine, just ask respected members around here like IKC, Janus, Borbarad, Faunus, and Lord Darkstar.

From people who say 'No matter what was intended, what was shown...' etc etc etc.
Alright, what did I miss? I'll answer it here.

And Given the Ancient Sith had to be tricked inbto going to war, went to war over the death of a talking head to avenge their sithy rihgteousness on the Republic. When'd they kill a Jedi? When'd they destroy a world? When'd they show intelligence? When'd they crush the galaxy under their boot? When'd they do something WITHOUT technology?
And turned it personal? You've been the one throwing around insults from the start

And thanks for admitting you're a hypocrite on a 'lower level'.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
From people who say 'No matter what was intended, what was shown...' etc etc etc.
Alright, what did I miss? I'll answer it here.

And Given the Ancient Sith had to be tricked inbto going to war, went to war over the death of a talking head to avenge their sithy rihgteousness on the Republic. When'd they kill a Jedi? When'd they destroy a world? When'd they show intelligence? When'd they crush the galaxy under their boot? When'd they do something WITHOUT technology?
And turned it personal? You've been the one throwing around insults from the start

And thanks for admitting you're a hypocrite on a 'lower level'.

I never admitted to being a hypocrite, I said you've demonstrated far greater hypocrisy than me. Great interpretation of what I said. Maybe that's why everyone thinks you're a lying fanboy.

I can do the same thing:

Given that Sidious had to scrounge around for Sith teachings to become before, had to sneak around Naboo and get elected senator, got discovered by Anakin of all people, got put on his ass by Mace Windu and had to get bailed out, had his "uber" lightning reversed by Yoda and sent flying back from his own power, had his body thrown down a reactor core, couldn't even control his own body, had his clone body's hand slashed up by a DE Luke that years later said would need all the combined might to defeat Ragnos, had his ability jammed by other Jedi, and was shot in the back by a non force sensitive, all the while doing next to nothing as a spirit.

And then you prop up everyone that Sidious ever went with. You're shamelessly plugging your favorite character.

You dog their use of technology, but you can't pinpoint how strong they are without it. Apparently Sidious must be an idiot because he doesn't use the artifacts that he has.

So am I weak because I drive to work instead of jog? The supposition doesn't support the postulate.

You've committed countless logical fallacies in this thread alone, and when I point them out, you act like they never happened.

You want more? I could file a grievance longer than the Declaration of Independence.

You're the one making this personal, beating away your hypocrisy and baseless, biased statements is not attacking you -- obviously you have far too much of a fanboy tie to your favorite character because you have no provided the reasoning needed to back up your claims.

You argue that we ignore what the text says, but you somehow do it for the entire TOTJ.

In short, learn to debate, or else get out of the courtroom.

Everyone? Cute. ecause IKC's word is law. Because I admitted what I was wrong on there.

Waaait, providing ACTUAL info to what he used-and I can prove all my comments on Mace and Yoda- is being a fanboy? And since Sidious is demonstrated to be a 'titan' and 'godlike' WITHOUT artifacts....if Sadow didn't need his ship to destroy stars, wouldn't he have done so?

And me makign this personal? Please, you and IKC started the attacks long ago.

You can ignore that passage I posted all you want but until you deal with it, I have the advantage. Says there Palpatine learned all aspects of the force, from the Sith to the Jedi to the Nightsisters. And really? Your logical fallacies are boundless. Lets ignore how good Mace and Yoda were! Only declared the best swordsman and greatest avatar of light respectively! Let's ignore Vader was a Chosen one and how strong Vader was!
But no, point out something Sidious did, it's INSTANTLY-from the START of all these debates- said how he died, and ignored how strong he wactually was, ignored all he's done, ignored how he used the Siths' greatest weapon to as good as it was ever used. It's ignored how Kun lost, ignored how Ragnos screwed up for what? Because he's praised by random people? I actually provided an essay with numerous sources showing what he has and has done and still, NOTHING

For the sake of being civil, I will apologize, though I ask that you follow your own advice,

"I love the logical fallacy of people around here. We have all the logic and evidence suggesting Ragnos was some uber lord over the Dark Side, yet somehow, someway, using some paragon of twisted logic, they assume the very worse out of him. What low showing are you going off of? His defeat to Jaden? His 5000 year old spirit's defeat to Jaden when he possessed a body that was already beaten? His defeat that didn't even kill him?"

That whole paragraph was puting words in my mouth (especially considaring that I didn't even mention the JA part), so don't start trying to gain the moral high ground here.

You don't seem to understand where I'm coming from here, the problem I have with your entire argument is that it is entirly based on these quotes which don't prove anything. You keep saying that being called titanic in force power proves something, but it doesn't. I only shows that they were powerful, yes, very powerful, but it in no way shows that Ragnos would beat Luke. I just don't understand why you continue to cling to them. For examle, making jedi look like children, relative as it was about an era 4,000 years in the past. "Dwarf", again, relative, not a quote which can be applied to all Jedi(though, if you don't mind, could you tell me who it was referencing, that would make it clearer). The construction of the superweapons and alchemic enhancers is better, but still off as the only thing we know ragnos made was his scepter. And that was never very impressive in terms of combat. yes, I'm well aware that it could absorb the force out of a planet, but it didn't seem like it could discharge that much at once, if it could Tavion would have destroyed Jaden, or when Jaden blasted Kyle it would have done more than knock him to the groud, also, this is the staff after it empowered the Cultists, and after it absorbed Vijun, Yavin, Hoth, etc.

Force users would be harder to freeze simply because they too can use the force to resist the influence of others. And the force users in the room were of unknown power, regardless, they weren't as powerful as Sidious so it's a moot point. And I also have to ask, do you not find stopping an entire fleet with the force impressive?

Finally, I apologive again, I wasn't clear here. I, personally don't hold a lot of faith in quotes like that. Quotes can be easily misinterprited, or interpreted to fit one's opinoin, be applied to a situation it wasn't meant to be, and simply be the author throwing his weight around. That being said, I won't push the point about the quote as I don't really believe it proves much of anything. however, I will say that your logic applies here. The quote about him being the "strongest of the strongest" can easily fall prey to retconning.

And for the record, my favorite SW characters: Yoda, Obi-wan, Tyranus, Han Solo.

EU wise: Mara Jade, Luke, Ben SKywalker.

Because only IKC has called you a fanboy before, right? That's a naive comment.



If you claim that because Mace put Sidious on his ass, he's the best ever, or something to that effect, yes. You are being a fanboy.



If Sidious had artifacts, wouldn't he have used them? The fact of the matter is that you can't distinguish where his power ends. Hell, even when Sidious' hand was hewn, you saw trinkets scatter. No artifacts is a stretch that was not supported by the narration.



What personal attacks? I argued your were a hypocrite by pointing out specific pieces of your argument. I argued that your passages were logical fallacy.

You have not refuted the claim. So I'm just going to assume that even you admit to using fallacious logic and bad debating skills.



And does it claim that this makes him superior to Kun? Who existed 2000 years OUTSIDE of DE continuity?

Have you ever even countered that retconn point? No? Too bad.



Where was Mace declared the best swordsman? He was declared one of the best swordsman. He was declared as a prodigy. I'm a defender for Mace's skills, so stop trying to turn the tables.

You taking "one of the best swordsman" in the Jedi Order into "the best swordsman" is example of fanboyism.

Yoda declared an avatar of light? I must have missed the part where that proves he's the best thing since swiss cheese.



Like how "Chosen One" Vader was beaten by "what a god" Obi-Wan? Or like how he, even without a hand, still managed to benchpress Sidious into a reactor core?

You haven't answered for any of these points. You've just played the role of apologist.

Funny how you say I'm ignoring them. I never personally degraded them like you did Vodo or Odan-Urr, now did I? That's fanboyism, that's logical fallacy. Applying your own spin to "one of the best" swordsman is logical fallacy. Thanks for giving me ammo against you.



You don't seem to realize that's what I'm mocking you for right?

You are the one that mentions only his high showings while comparing the low showings of the ancient Sith. You are the one that only argues the result and simply glosses over the other details.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm mocking your logic, as evidence with this:



AKA, I can use the same twisted and one-sided logic you're applying.



When did Ragnos screw up? He's the dark lord of the sith, he's the keeper of the order, he crowned future Dark Lords. How did he screw up? He accomplished everything an individual Sith could ask to accomplish. If anything, Naga screwed up, but that doesn't diminish his personal abilities.



"And I provided a counteressay to why it was retconned. And still... NOTHING"

It's easy to play victim Lightsnake. Emperor Revan did it, Darth Somebody did it, hell, even IKC did it when I debated with him. You're just another link in a long chain. And if you think you can win with one-sided logic, you're in for a long ride, I'll point it out every time.

1. You, IKC....noone calls IKC a Kun fanboy, or anyone else another kind of fanboy...hell, anyone could call a lot of people Ragnos fanboys.

2. Please, It was known of Mace's sword prowess long before Ep. 3. I had the belief since Shatterpoint and ROTS novelization only confirmed it.

3. What trinkets? That was either bites of whatever the hell composed his clone or whatever suit he was wearing and given that he was only dressed in black robes...And he didn't need to use them, plain and simple. Read that essay: He littered his room with sith artifacts.

4. I just SAID: Repost them. I see no reason to waste my time with it when I admitted to my mistakes with IKC. and the hypocrisy is on both ends here

5. DE appears in the Dark Side Sourcebook and new Essential Chronology. Get the hell over it, it's never been retconned and you can't prove it has. Yeah, apparently Sidious mastered all aspects of the Force. Kun didn't.

6. Yoda and Dooku were better duelists then Mace, I know this. However, Mace's little Shatterpoint ability, his physical strength and possible other factors influence a lot. and page....396 in the novelization for Yoda, I believe, among other things.

7. As opposed to 'He got killed by a robot' before I even STARTED arguing? Odan and Vodo never did anything impressive...we saw Vodo fail as a teacher in every way possible, we saw Odan fail in the war...

8. Vader was already momentously strong with Robotic limbs. We've seen him lift fully grown men of the ground-in ANH- with one arm....Palpatine isn't exactly physically imposing, I'll say that. When he fought Obi-wan, Anakin's emotions and thoughts were plainly messed up due to the Padme thing. And Obi-wan trained Anakin...of course he'd know his fighting style very well.

9. How many of them posted actual proof to actual written statements? It said in no uncertain terms Sidious's mastery and I have a bevy of others. Now, how did Revan screw up? He failed to reappear to save the Sith from Naga, he led the empire to stagnation and didn't deal with Simus and Naga's dissendent faction....he should've appointed a clear chain to prevent the empire from falling into dissaray upon his death....he knew what would happen...

I called IKC a Kun fanboy. Don't bring that shit around here.



Again, here you go again. I never doubted that he was a great swordsman. I admitted he was "one of the best." But it is not expressed that he is the best (absolute) as you put it.

That's the difference. Do not take subjectives and make them absolutes at your own discretion.



Not needing to use them is a copout. He either doesn't have them, doesn't know how, or is too stupid to see the practical purpose in using them. There is no reason for me to try to walk to work everyday if I have a sports car with unlimited gas.



I posted them in a long post, why didn't you refute them there? If you are too caught up to notice that I'm undermining your logical basis, perhaps you really have to evaluate your stance.



It's retconned because the dates. are. off.

The Sourcebook and DE does not reference the existence of an ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE that existed far before the dates provided. In fact, in the sourcebook, they even went so far as to EXCLUDE their existence. Ergo, when Anderson made them exist, he had to fudge around with their prior timeline, making the entire comparison in DE moot when put into continuity with the older sith.

You arguing that I can't prove it doesn't mean I haven't.



The novelization also describes Sidious as getting his lightsaber slashed away instead of kicked. Both the movie and novelization describe him as being beaten by Mace. If you're arguing Mace is greater than Ragnos, you should try to prove that too.



Being revered Jedi Masters for centuries isn't impressive? So Yoda didn't do anything impressive. He fought Dooku to a stalemate and tactically lost to Sidious. Right?

Don't degrade characters that don't fit into your argument. Pure. and. Simple. Odan and Vodo two of the most powerful and revered Jedi in the entire order of "thousands." That is mentioned in canon and should not be disputed.



That doesn't make Obi-Wan a sudden god. The point of the matter is that simply because he was the "Chosen One" does not make him a saber or force god. He has never demonstrated any of that. Ergo, him throwing Sidious down the core diminishes Sidious.

If Naga Sadow is diminished because Gav fires at him while he is meditating, Sidious is certainly diminished there.



Emperor Revan is another individual that used to post on this board.

Why should Ragnos deal with their dissention? Sidious never proclaimed an heir either, does that mean he failed? Ragnos achieved the pinnacle of Sith achievement in the Ancient Empire, the stated Golden Age and zenith of their power. He dominated over some of the greatest Sith magicians of all time. In fact, he foresaw what would happen and told Naga not to do it. Naga was a hothead, Ragnos was not.

In the same way that Sidious had no control of Vader when he threatened his values.

And again, I fail to see how appointing a chain would have meant he was not as great an individual. Is Peter the Great diminished because he had no heir? Is Queen Elizabeth diminished because she had no children? Is George Washington diminished because he had no heirs?

You're confusing personal and political accomplishments. I've conceded Sidious is probably the greatest politician in the galaxy's history, he is not the strongest fighter in the course of its history and the only source that remotely claims that does not take into account the Ancient Sith.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I called IKC a Kun fanboy. Don't bring that shit around here.



Again, here you go again. I never doubted that he was a great swordsman. I admitted he was "one of the best." But it is not expressed that he is the best (absolute) as you put it.

That's the difference. Do not take subjectives and make them absolutes at your own discretion.



Not needing to use them is a copout. He either doesn't have them, doesn't know how, or is too stupid to see the practical purpose in using them. There is no reason for me to try to walk to work everyday if I have a sports car with unlimited gas.



I posted them in a long post, why didn't you refute them there? If you are too caught up to notice that I'm undermining your logical basis, perhaps you really have to evaluate your stance.



It's retconned because the dates. are. off.

The Sourcebook and DE does not reference the existence of an ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE that existed far before the dates provided. In fact, in the sourcebook, they even went so far as to EXCLUDE their existence. Ergo, when Anderson made them exist, he had to fudge around with their prior timeline, making the entire comparison in DE moot when put into continuity with the older sith.

You arguing that I can't prove it doesn't mean I haven't.



The novelization also describes Sidious as getting his lightsaber slashed away instead of kicked. Both the movie and novelization describe him as being beaten by Mace. If you're arguing Mace is greater than Ragnos, you should try to prove that too.



Being revered Jedi Masters for centuries isn't impressive? So Yoda didn't do anything impressive. He fought Dooku to a stalemate and tactically lost to Sidious. Right?

Don't degrade characters that don't fit into your argument. Pure. and. Simple. Odan and Vodo two of the most powerful and revered Jedi in the entire order of "thousands." That is mentioned in canon and should not be disputed.



That doesn't make Obi-Wan a sudden god. The point of the matter is that simply because he was the "Chosen One" does not make him a saber or force god. He has never demonstrated any of that. Ergo, him throwing Sidious down the core diminishes Sidious.

If Naga Sadow is diminished because Gav fires at him while he is meditating, Sidious is certainly diminished there.



Emperor Revan is another individual that used to post on this board.

Why should Ragnos deal with their dissention? Sidious never proclaimed an heir either, does that mean he failed? Ragnos achieved the pinnacle of Sith achievement in the Ancient Empire, the stated Golden Age and zenith of their power. He dominated over some of the greatest Sith magicians of all time. In fact, he foresaw what would happen and told Naga not to do it. Naga was a hothead, Ragnos was not.

In the same way that Sidious had no control of Vader when he threatened his values.

And again, I fail to see how appointing a chain would have meant he was not as great an individual. Is Peter the Great diminished because he had no heir? Is Queen Elizabeth diminished because she had no children? Is George Washington diminished because he had no heirs?

You're confusing personal and political accomplishments. I've conceded Sidious is probably the greatest politician in the galaxy's history, he is not the strongest fighter in the course of its history and the only source that remotely claims that does not take into account the Ancient Sith.

1. Fine, I'm sorry.

2. I just SAID Mace wasn't the best. He was easily one of the best, was my entire point.

3. Or since his fury unbound tears the fabric of the universe, artifacts are superfluous. If you want a real answer: He was fighting Luke at the time he didn't have them at hand when Luke turned back to the light. They'd be on Byss at the time

4. You shouldn't have an issue posting them again.

5. You've failed to do this: Provide, in DE where they give dates on the Ancient Empire. YOU. CANNOT. IT was retconned in the NEC and never mentioned in DE. DE's dates were NEVER ONCE RETCONNED. And Went so far as to exclude them? The Dark Side sourcebook didn't! It discussed them at length! And how could they exclude what was only in development? That makes no sense. DE's continuity hinges upon a false claim and DE is in the NEC and Dark Side sourcebook.

6. And the entire controversy is Sidious faking. the novelization is still continuity oin matters it doesn't contradict. It's secondary in canon before other EU.

7. Coleman Trebor was a revered Jedi master. Odan was reknowned for wisdom. We've seen Yoda do a great deal, too....from containing a flow of dark side power, to moving a temple, to blocking lightning with bare hands...we've seen the OJO constantly screw up and show weakness

8. He. Was. Destined. To. Kill. Sidious. And Vader demonstrated incredible strength before. From the Dark Woman, to Shadday's men, to Hapes....Obi-wan was a damn good fighter and Jedi. Naga made Gav his number 2 right there...and sent him to attack his own city, that's just....

9. Unlike Ragnos, Sidious had a method of eternal life. I mean, Ragnos should've had some kind of chain of command...he KNEW what Naga's folly would do. He could easily have killed Naga and ended the threat, or backed Kressh....

Can't we just concede that while Sidious can be considered the "greatest" Dark Lord of the Sith, considering all he accomplished, he cannot be considered the most "powerful" Dark Lord of the Sith?

Sidious' strength lies in cunning, smoke and mirrors and manipulation. Did he take his master head on? No, he killed him in his sleep.

Did he want to fight Yoda once he'd seen the guy survive a blast from his lightening? No. He was running away.

Similarly, the Chosen One was destined to destroy the Sith - not Sidious. George Lucas has specifically said that while the prophesy is true, the route to fulfilling it was never set in stone.

Anyone could have killed *Sidious* - the Prophesy isn't about Sidious, it's about the Chosen One destroying the Sith. It just so happened that in the end, "The Sith" was Sidious, but it didn't *have* to be Sidious*, anymore than Anakin *had* to turn to the dark side to fulfill his destiny. George Lucas said: "Anakin could have fulfilled the prophesy in Palpatine's office" - that's what makes his fall all the more tragic.

* What I mean to say is, before Dooku died, someone could have killed Sidious - and then Anakin would have fulfilled the prophesy by killing Dooku. Similarly, Plagueis could have seen through Sidious betrayal and killed him, then Anakin would have to destroy Plagueis... etc etc. I used to think that there was no free-will in the GFFA, but comments made by Lucas have basically shown me that I'm wrong.

End of the day. Sidious lost to Mace Windu. Regardless of whether Mace is "one of the best swordsmen" or not, due to his defeat, I cannot consider Palps to be "most powerful Sith ever"

Give that accolade to someone who doesn't get kicked in the face.

8. Being destined to kill Sidious does not make you great... It just makes you a killer simple as that. This proofs nothing.

9. The most powerful will rule, the only way he could have a made a structure of command is by killing the most powerful under him, which would have made him look weak. It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

There's also the fact that Palp was considered to improve substantially, the 'faking' controversy, among other things...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's also the fact that Palp was considered to improve substantially, the 'faking' controversy, among other things...

What "faking" controversy ? Faking the fight against Mace ? That was ended by Lucas himself on the ROTS commentary. You should listen to him.
- Mace did overpower Sidious
- Sidious can't brake through Mace's defence with force lightning (and then fakes to have no power any longer to keep his - USELESS - attack up)
- the lightning reflected back at him did destroy his skin.

So without Anakin coming in and disarming Mace, Sidious would have been a dead man. So by ROTS Mace > him.
For the OT Lucas himself said that Vader is 80 % of Sidious. Yet imagine Vader + 20 % more power and tell me he's compareable to people like Kun, Ragnos and so on. He is NOT.

In DE:
In terms of lightsaber fighting he's inferior to Luke which makes him even look worse compared to ROTS unless you want to argue that Luke with virtually no fighting experience in lightsaber duels is on top of Mace Windu - a lightsaber prodigy with 50 years of expirience handling that weapon.
Force wise he wasn't able to protect himself against DE Luke using some power from Leia and the unborn Anakin. The same Luke that couldn't protect himself against an attack of Exar Kun's half-mad, 4000 year old spirit and a Padawan who was trained in the Dark Side for some weeks. The same Luke that 10 years later suggests that it would take the power of the entire Academy (including himself, Jacen, Jaina, Kyp and so on) to take down a living Ragnos.

So really...what do you want to debate ? Sidious is the victim here and nothing more.

Lucas said nothing on the force lightning...in fact, he said Palpatine was faking weakness there. And according to Lucas? Constant use of the dark side deformed Palpatine. And in the EU? Yeah, it supports the idea that Palpatine altered himself completely. Noone ever seems to have any idea why it didn't deform Mace or Luke....why it didn't rot their teeth, change their voice and turn their eyes Sith yellow.

If Anakin hadn't come in, Sidious would've pulled out the Force and bye bye, Mace. I want definite proof Sidious didn't fake the lightning, because Lucas said "We always had in mind Mace overpowering Palpatine' (Oh, overpowering...never mind Sidious had a spare and the the fight hadn't ended anymore than it had when Maul had Obi-wan over a melting pit) 'Then Anakin comes in and Palpatine fakes and exagerrates his weakness." Palpatine only attacks when Mace says he intends to take him in for arrest....then Palpatine is affected in a way using lightning that is weaker than the lightning he uses thereafter....and he is 'weakened'....after which he is shown smirking lightly and watching Anakin...then grinning broadly when Mace is disarmed before-odd for someone 'too weak' to fight...makes with the unlimited poweeeeeeer and kills MAce-who looks cosmetically fine, despite getting it worse than Palpatine did, charred to the bone- then gets up with no hint of even breathing heavy.

If Anakin hadn't come in, worst case scenario is: Mace takes Palpatine in with just his sword he's a sith. The Republic reacts violently for the arrest of its beloved leader.

And for that fight to have been entirely real? The coincidence is FAR too great.

And imagine Vader to those guys...same Vader who is able to go ahead on with eight masters? same Vader who kills the Dark woman? Same Vader who destroyed a small legion of Jedi singlehandedly on Hapes?

And could it ever be because-I keep posting this- Luke wss drawing power from the force completely and had everything to fight for? To quote: He drew it from the stars, from the trees and the forests across the galaxy, from oceans and even from the twisted metal of the emperor's throne room.

And the same Luke suggests everything'll be needed to stop Hethrir. Why do we KEEP IGNROING Exar was NOT a normal force ghost-he could affect the physical world, had drained the life energy of a race, had the power of the temple to focus on- and double teaming a surprised Luke?

I'll be on when I can in the next few days, I'll be gone a bit

Speculation, non sequitur. Logical fallacy.



Asking the opposition to prove a negative. Logical fallacy.



Disputing the authority? Nevermind logical fallacy, your fanboyism here shines through perfectly.



Speculation. Non sequitur.



Speculation, hasty generalization, non sequitor. No proof. You must substantiate with proof.



Faulty use of authority, non sequitur. Corran Horn is not the final authority on force ghosts. Ergo, you must prove that Exar was substantially different or drop the point. As well, you must prove that Exar himself absorbed the massassi's energy. From the scans, we only see that the ritual absorbed the energy.

Originally posted by IKC
Speculation, non sequitur. Logical fallacy.



Asking the opposition to prove a negative. Logical fallacy.



Disputing the authority? Nevermind logical fallacy, your fanboyism here shines through perfectly.



Speculation. Non sequitur.



Speculation, hasty generalization, non sequitor. No proof. You must substantiate with proof.



Faulty use of authority, non sequitur. Corran Horn is not the final authority on force ghosts. Ergo, you must prove that Exar was substantially different or drop the point. As well, you must prove that Exar himself absorbed the massassi's energy. From the scans, we only see that the ritual absorbed the energy.

1. Great, ignoring how vulnerable Mace left himself...

2. Great, ignoring things from Lucas...

3. Because 'overpowered' means 'defeated completely and utterly'...who won that fight with Maul now?

4. Speculation with evidence backing it up. C'mon, you think Mace, member of the JEdi, now distrusted and feared could get away with taking Palp in with no proof?

5. And in everything else, he's described as having drained the massassi. Chronology? Character guide? And funny how you ignore how the students all discover things on Exar periodically
They may not be the final authority, but they've got more of it than you

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Great, ignoring how vulnerable Mace left himself...

In his lightsaber form? Vapaad is designed that way to try and get an enemy to make a hasty attack that the user can take advantage of. That was one of the reasons it was so dangerous. Mace knew what he was doing the entire time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Great, ignoring things from Lucas...

Lucas never hints that Sidious faked being overpowered.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Because 'overpowered' means 'defeated completely and utterly'...who won that fight with Maul now?

Why do you keep going back to that fight. It only shows Sidious' weakness. Do you think that Obi-wan was faking the fight and allowed himself to be pushed into the pit? No. That was pure luck. The same happened with Sidious.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Speculation with evidence backing it up. C'mon, you think Mace, member of the JEdi, now distrusted and feared could get away with taking Palp in with no proof?

The Jedi were prepared to take control of the Senate. The Jedi were more respected then Palpatine even at this point. It took the Empire decades to get the people to think lowly of the Jedi. Even still, the Jedi were respected after Palpatine died. In the Thrawn books an outlaw Barabel asks Luke for mediation in a dispute because he is a Jedi even though the Barabel did not know who Luke was, other then that he was a Jedi. Even when Luke decided against the Barabel in something the Barabel felt very strongly for(he was willing to kill over it), he backed down without question. The Barabel trusted in the judgement of some random Jedi even after 25 years of Imperial propaganda. The Senate would have stepped down for the Jedi as we know that some of the most powerful planets in the Republic(Kashyyyk) was willing to fight a major battle against the Empire that resulted in tens of thousands of Wookie deaths and the enslavement of over 200,000 Wookies. All of that for six outlaw Jedi. Imagine what they would have done for Yoda or Obi-wan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. And in everything else, he's described as having drained the massassi. Chronology? Character guide? And funny how you ignore how the students all discover things on Exar periodically
They may not be the final authority, but they've got more of it than you

Even Luke didn't know what exactly happened with Exar as a spirit. None of the students saw what happened, but we did in the comics. Nor had a books with an all-knowing narrator to listen to. We do.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lucas said nothing on the force lightning...in fact, he said Palpatine was faking weakness there. And according to Lucas? Constant use of the dark side deformed Palpatine. And in the EU? Yeah, it supports the idea that Palpatine altered himself completely. Noone ever seems to have any idea why it didn't deform Mace or Luke....why it didn't rot their teeth, change their voice and turn their eyes Sith yellow.


He is just faking to have no power to keep the attack up which was senseless because he couldn't pass Mace's defense with it as we all have seen in the movie. And it's even told in the commentary that the "redirected lightning is deforming his body". So ups.
And he altered himself completely ? You want to tell me that his Palpatine face was a mask ? Then why didn't he use that "mask" again after his little confrontation with Windu ?



Yeah. He fakes to have no power any longer. I love how you simply "missed" the "You have lost, my lord." from Windu and then Sidious goes "Oh no...YOU have lost." and uses lightning on him which Mace deflects. So...Sidious was using weaker lightning when trying to overpower Windu ? Ahahaha. More fanboy lies to feed us, Lightsnake ? Sidious was faking weakness because he realized that he couldn't break to Mace's defence with his force lightning. And that's it.



You did realize how Mace was about to kill Sidious before Anakin cut his arm off, right ?



With eight masters ? Uhu...where ? Same Vader who kills the Dark Woman ? Wow...he can kill one person in a lightsaber fight. Impressive. A small legion of Jedi on Hapes ? Eh ?



And Luke wouldn't get weaker over time...period...



I love how you ignore the fact that Hethrir had an entire army of Dark Siders under his belt including people like Desann and Tavion. And when did Luke state that ? Before or after Hethrir was simply eaten by Waru and after 20 minutes near the Chrystal star wasn't able to ignite his lightsaber any longer because his power was drained where Luke had spent weeks there and still kept his illusionary face up ?



Why do you keep ignoring that Exar was half-mad, that he had to train hard to communicate with other persons, that "draining the life force of an entire race" is already greater than everything Sidious ever did and that he neither did "double team" nor "surprised" Luke. Luke was ready for a fight, lightsaber in hand and then it was Kyp controlled by Kun or Kun assisted a little bit by Kyp who tore Luke's spirit from his body. Notice that Kun still was a 4000 year old and half-mad spirit.



Mace and vulnerable ? Eh ? Where exactly ?



You are the only person doing something like this here, trying to save your beloved Sidious. Mace overpowered him and that's the end...



What do you want to argue here. Did Sidious had a oportunity for a comeback ? He couldn't get past Mace's defences with his force abilities, he didn't have a lightsaber since his was lying somewhere in the streets of Coruscant and he couldn't escape from his position. Sidious was BEATEN without chance for a comeback.



Again making up stuff ? The Jedi weren't "distrusted" before Sidious walked into the Senate and told the Jedi had tried to assasinate him without any reason. If Mace had killed Sidious nobody would questioned his motives, even less since their would have been Anakin - the hero of the Clone Wars - to tell everybody that Sidious was a Sith Lord.



It's funny how the ritual did cost energy and it wasn't directly transferred into Kun. Otherwise he would have been able to take on the Jedi that were above his planet at that point. Instead they pretty much bound him to that planet with their "wall of light attack" and he dwelled their for 4000 years. Notice how he didn't interact with the Rebels when they used Yavin 4 as base in ANH and how he has been weak - even too weak to speak to other persons as he said himself. So I wonder how he's uber powerful or more powerful than he was alive. And the sources don't say he drained the Massassi - it says the ritual drained the Massassi. Little difference there.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Jedi were prepared to take control of the Senate. The Jedi were more respected then Palpatine even at this point. It took the Empire decades to get the people to think lowly of the Jedi. Even still, the Jedi were respected after Palpatine died. In the Thrawn books an outlaw Barabel asks Luke for mediation in a dispute because he is a Jedi even though the Barabel did not know who Luke was, other then that he was a Jedi. Even when Luke decided against the Barabel in something the Barabel felt very strongly for(he was willing to kill over it), he backed down without question. The Barabel trusted in the judgement of some random Jedi even after 25 years of Imperial propaganda. The Senate would have stepped down for the Jedi as we know that some of the most powerful planets in the Republic(Kashyyyk) was willing to fight a major battle against the Empire that resulted in tens of thousands of Wookie deaths and the enslavement of over 200,000 Wookies. All of that for six outlaw Jedi. Imagine what they would have done for Yoda or Obi-wan.

I'm on your side in the debate, but not on this point.

The Jedi were far from being the Galaxy's most popular, which is why Order 66 was so easily accomplished. There were very few in the initial Rebellion; had there been more, the ransition from Republic to Empire wouldn't have been smooth at all. Aside from the Second Battle of Kashyyyk, most systems -- as a whole, not counting the individual protests of some -- fell into line fairly quickly.

And the Barabel? Barabels, Wookies, Mon Calamari, etc. had a natural trust in Jedi. Well, not natural, but after facing the special discrimination and enslavement from the Empire, they would have sure looked back on the days of the Old Republic and remembered the peace-keepers.

As for the Senate, it sure as hell would not have stepped down for friggin' Mace Windu. Palpatine had it in his grip, and that is how he gained so much power, so quickly, and was able to take it. Other than those involved in the Delegation of 2,000, you don't see any others startled or scared by this.

Kashyyyk was far from one of the most powerful planets in the galaxy. The Wookies tended to be less involved in galactic affairs, which is why they took until practically the end of the conflict to become involved in the Clone Wars. Technologically, it lacked a planetary shield and exceptional, noticable planet-space artillery.

Also, note that the Wookies weren't fightning just for the Jedi; they were fighting for their home and their liberty. They'd figured out that they were to become slaves, so they took out as many Imperials as they could before that inevitable fate. Olee Starstone even says that the Empire only used the Jedi presence there to justify their invasion of Kashyyyk. And guess what? The galaxy, as a whole, let it go.

Admittedly, there were many species and individuals that supported the Jedi. But these species, and individuals, could not turn the public to support the old guardians. Hence, the war.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
The Jedi were far from being the Galaxy's most popular, which is why Order 66 was so easily accomplished. There were very few in the initial Rebellion; had there been more, the ransition from Republic to Empire wouldn't have been smooth at all. Aside from the Second Battle of Kashyyyk, most systems -- as a whole, not counting the individual protests of some -- fell into line fairly quickly.


They weren't popular. That's right. But they also weren't known as notorious liars or power hungry people that would kill the Chancelor of the Republic for no reason. At least they were war heroes that defended the Republic.
And what does "assasination through mindless clone troopers" have to do with the popularity of the Jedi ? They were killed on the battle field by their own troops or destroyed in their own temple by Clone Troopers and Anakin.



Glentracts point was that they thrusted the decission of a random Jedi even after the Empire had bombarded them with "anti Jedi propaganda" for 2 decades.



No ? This is just speculation. What would have happened if Windu had pushed Sidious into the Senate with proof that Sidious had killed 3 Jedi Masters before and orchestrated the entire war ? This with the war hero that Sidious had built up via his media for years as a witness. Do you think he could have kept his control over the Senate ? Or even better: What would have happend if Mace had killed Sidious...

Originally posted by Borbarad
He is just faking to have no power to keep the attack up which was senseless because he couldn't pass Mace's defense with it as we all have seen in the movie. And it's even told in the commentary that the "redirected lightning is deforming his body". So ups.
And he altered himself completely ? You want to tell me that his Palpatine face was a mask ? Then why didn't he use that "mask" again after his little confrontation with Windu ?



Yeah. He fakes to have no power any longer. I love how you simply "missed" the "You have lost, my lord." from Windu and then Sidious goes "Oh no...YOU have lost." and uses lightning on him which Mace deflects. So...Sidious was using weaker lightning when trying to overpower Windu ? Ahahaha. More fanboy lies to feed us, Lightsnake ? Sidious was faking weakness because he realized that he couldn't break to Mace's defence with his force lightning. And that's it.



You did realize how Mace was about to kill Sidious before Anakin cut his arm off, right ?



With eight masters ? Uhu...where ? Same Vader who kills the Dark Woman ? Wow...he can kill one person in a lightsaber fight. Impressive. A small legion of Jedi on Hapes ? Eh ?



And Luke wouldn't get weaker over time...period...



I love how you ignore the fact that Hethrir had an entire army of Dark Siders under his belt including people like Desann and Tavion. And when did Luke state that ? Before or after Hethrir was simply eaten by Waru and after 20 minutes near the Chrystal star wasn't able to ignite his lightsaber any longer because his power was drained where Luke had spent weeks there and still kept his illusionary face up ?



Why do you keep ignoring that Exar was half-mad, that he had to train hard to communicate with other persons, that "draining the life force of an entire race" is already greater than everything Sidious ever did and that he neither did "double team" nor "surprised" Luke. Luke was ready for a fight, lightsaber in hand and then it was Kyp controlled by Kun or Kun assisted a little bit by Kyp who tore Luke's spirit from his body. Notice that Kun still was a 4000 year old and half-mad spirit.



Mace and vulnerable ? Eh ? Where exactly ?



You are the only person doing something like this here, trying to save your beloved Sidious. Mace overpowered him and that's the end...



What do you want to argue here. Did Sidious had a oportunity for a comeback ? He couldn't get past Mace's defences with his force abilities, he didn't have a lightsaber since his was lying somewhere in the streets of Coruscant and he couldn't escape from his position. Sidious was BEATEN without chance for a comeback.



Again making up stuff ? The Jedi weren't "distrusted" before Sidious walked into the Senate and told the Jedi had tried to assasinate him without any reason. If Mace had killed Sidious nobody would questioned his motives, even less since their would have been Anakin - the hero of the Clone Wars - to tell everybody that Sidious was a Sith Lord.



It's funny how the ritual did cost energy and it wasn't directly transferred into Kun. Otherwise he would have been able to take on the Jedi that were above his planet at that point. Instead they pretty much bound him to that planet with their "wall of light attack" and he dwelled their for 4000 years. Notice how he didn't interact with the Rebels when they used Yavin 4 as base in ANH and how he has been weak - even too weak to speak to other persons as he said himself. So I wonder how he's uber powerful or more powerful than he was alive. And the sources don't say he drained the Massassi - it says the ritual drained the Massassi. Little difference there.

1. That's a lie. It's said the exertion of dark side use turns him into the empire we know later on. And why didn't we use that mask? Oh, y'know, maybe it helped a little when he said "I have been scarred and deformed"

2. Right, because a quote never said from Mace Windu means a THING when Mace would never realize he was being manipulated. Mace says "You are under arrest." and Sidious didn't mean to kill Mace with the first barrage, HE MEANT TO ACT WEAKENED AND DRAW ANAKIN TO THE DARK SIDE. Lucas even SAID he was faking his weakness and tricking Anakin. I'm tired of your hater lies:. The supposedly weak Palpatine stands up with NO exertion and blows Mace into oblivion screaming "Power." That alone should be enough to indicate he was faking, coupled with his looking to Anakin with a smirk on his face when they were arguing to kill him.

3. According to Lucas, that was a ploy to draw Anakin over, he was faking and exaggerating his weakness. Hell, his shatterpoint was 'He trusted Anakin completely.'

4. Ahhh, let's ignore how powerful the dark Woman actually was....and eight Jedi in 'Purge'. The score of knights on hapes is only mentioned, but Ta'a Chume's grandmother betrayed their location to Palpatine who sent Vader.

5. Oh, after Mace's idiotic spin attack.

6. And you only despise Sidious and you're unwilling to even think of anything that could elevate him. Look, I can use your logic. Nevermind how Lucas said PAlpatine was faking weakness and exagerrating for Anakin's benefit...

7. Which is why he only used ONE force attack with dubious intention and not the massave force push he used moments later when that could have finished Mace much easier?

8. In republic, the Senators despise the Jedi and Bail ORgana, a lot of them even think the war's a Jedi plot. And Sidious had a spare saber, nice how you ignore that.

9. Mace, the hero as opposed to Palpatine, the beloved leader who kept the republic from falling apart and was loved universally

10. Character Guide: "He absorbed energy from the Massassi." He didn't interact with Palpatine when Palpatine arrived at Yavin,...he didn't wake up until seven years after ROTJ. And he was weak there because he'd been driven off by Luke

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
In his lightsaber form? Vapaad is designed that way to try and get an enemy to make a hasty attack that the user can take advantage of. That was one of the reasons it was so dangerous. Mace knew what he was doing the entire time.



Lucas never hints that Sidious faked being overpowered.



Why do you keep going back to that fight. It only shows Sidious' weakness. Do you think that Obi-wan was faking the fight and allowed himself to be pushed into the pit? No. That was pure luck. The same happened with Sidious.



The Jedi were prepared to take control of the Senate. The Jedi were more respected then Palpatine even at this point. It took the Empire decades to get the people to think lowly of the Jedi. Even still, the Jedi were respected after Palpatine died. In the Thrawn books an outlaw Barabel asks Luke for mediation in a dispute because he is a Jedi even though the Barabel did not know who Luke was, other then that he was a Jedi. Even when Luke decided against the Barabel in something the Barabel felt very strongly for(he was willing to kill over it), he backed down without question. The Barabel trusted in the judgement of some random Jedi even after 25 years of Imperial propaganda. The Senate would have stepped down for the Jedi as we know that some of the most powerful planets in the Republic(Kashyyyk) was willing to fight a major battle against the Empire that resulted in tens of thousands of Wookie deaths and the enslavement of over 200,000 Wookies. All of that for six outlaw Jedi. Imagine what they would have done for Yoda or Obi-wan.



Even Luke didn't know what exactly happened with Exar as a spirit. None of the students saw what happened, but we did in the comics. Nor had a books with an all-knowing narrator to listen to. We do.

1. Exactly why he looks shocked when Sidious's saber hovers over his chest.

2. "He exaggerates his weakness." And according to sW there's no such thing as luck or coincidence.

3. And being 'overpowered' isn't really the end all be all to a fight.

4. Oh, come on...the JEdi were distrusted heavily while Palpatine was the beloved leader. Some senators even accused the Jedi of plotting the war. Palpatine had kept the entire Republic together and was reknowned for his leadership and kindness....he tricked everyone into surrendering their power and wanting to do it! The Jedi had ZERO proof of anything against him.

5. And the omniscient narrarators proving Palp's credentials are ignored...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. That's a lie. It's said the exertion of dark side use turns him into the empire we know later on. And why didn't we use that mask? Oh, y'know, maybe it helped a little when he said "I have been scarred and deformed"

The commentary tells that it the lightning deflected back by Mace Windu that destroys his face. The novelization tells us (Page 336):
"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."

Obviously he tells us that he would have restored his "normal" face if he could have done it but - he can't. And how would "exertion of dark side use" destroy his face if he just used "a weaker form of his lightning" on Windu at that point. Nice selfownage there.



Nice how you are unable to watch a movie and listen to the things said. Right before Sidious uses lightning:
Mace: "You have lost."
Sidious: "No. No. No. You will die."
And then he starts using lightning on Windu. So Sidious didn't mean to kill Windu despite telling him just that right before using lightning and he was using "less powerful lightning" which was just too much power so that it melted Sidious own face. Yeah, right, fanboy.



No. Lucas states that Sidious fakes to have no power left to keep his lightning up. Period. The only person lying here is you Lightsnake. Sidious is still on the ground when he blasts Mace out of the Windu after Anakin took away Mace's defence and then he's breathing hard when he stands up again. I won't argue that he faked something: He faked to have no power for another force attack any longer and that's it



Again making things up ? Lucas tells us that Mace overpowers Sidious. The entire situation was not planned by Sidious since he tried to kill Mace in the lightsaber fight and he did try to kill him again with lightning. And when both things didn't work and he was - on the ground helpless without a chance to escape - he used Anakin as "last chance". He didn't have a reason to pull Anakin to the Dark Side with so many faked actions since Anakin thought he would need Sidious to save Padme - and that's the reason to save Sidious finally...he even tells that "I need him."



Yeah. The powerful Dark Women. Best feat: Trained Ki-Adi-Mundi who was tooled by 5 Clone Troopers. And 8 Jedi during the purge ? You mean putting the lightsaber to once head and igniting it (no defence) stabbing one from behind (again no defence) and then - with a legion of Clone Troopers firing at anything - killing Younglings, 2 Padawans and Cin Drallig. Impressive. The knights on Hapes ? I'm sure Vader just did go there alone...



Mercy. Where Sidious puts his lightsaber nearly on Windu's chest and still fails to stab him ?



He was faking to not have any power for another force attack because the one he tried to use failed against Windu's defence. What should he have done, huh ?



Would you please think once about the facts that:
a) He clearly revealed his intetion saying "You will die." before using his attack.
b) That this attack was powerful enough to melt his face away either because being redirected by Windu's lightsaber or he was using so much dark side energies.
c) Mace didn't have his lightsaber any longer and had his hand cut off just before Sidious used the second attack on him. So you totally miss the fact that Windu was weakened compared to the situation moments earlier where he deflected Sidious lightning.



It's nice how you ignore that there were at least 2,000 senators who wanted to resolve the war by diplomatic means and Sidious hindered it. It's nice how you make it up that many people thought the war was a plot of the Jedi (yeah right...they would love to get their order destroyed and therefore orchester a war that does that). And Sidious had a spare saber ? Where did he have it in his fight versus Windu. Hidden somewhere ? Would that have given him anything considering the fact that he was on the ground, couldn't get up, had his hands placed before his face and had a superior lightsaber duellists placing his own saber just in front of his face ?



Yeah...he was so universally loved that he had 2,000 star systems opposing against his politic not to mention that thousands of star systems joined the CIS every day. Much love there is for him.



Does it say he "absorbed all the energy from all Massasi" ? No ? Fine.
He didn't interact with Palpatine when Palpatine arrived at Yavin ? Is there any source saying that Palpatine once visited Yavin ? Then why Kun didn't talk to him ?
Where had he'd been "driven off by Luke" ? You're trying to tell us that Kun was charged up with the power of the Massasi up to a point where he was stronger than he was when he was alive and then you tell us that Luke - for some mysterious reason - could weaken Kun by just refusing to serve him when Kun visits him in his dreams ?
And you keep ignoring the point that Kun didn't reproduce the feats of the living Kun and said himself that he was weakend so much that he couldn't even talk and how it took him millenia of training to do just that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The commentary tells that it the lightning deflected back by Mace Windu that destroys his face. The novelization tells us (Page 336):
"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."

Obviously he tells us that he would have restored his "normal" face if he could have done it but - he can't. And how would "exertion of dark side use" destroy his face if he just used "a weaker form of his lightning" on Windu at that point. Nice selfownage there.



Nice how you are unable to watch a movie and listen to the things said. Right before Sidious uses lightning:
Mace: "You have lost."
Sidious: "No. No. No. You will die."
And then he starts using lightning on Windu. So Sidious didn't mean to kill Windu despite telling him just that right before using lightning and he was using "less powerful lightning" which was just too much power so that it melted Sidious own face. Yeah, right, fanboy.



No. Lucas states that Sidious fakes to have no power left to keep his lightning up. Period. The only person lying here is you Lightsnake. Sidious is still on the ground when he blasts Mace out of the Windu after Anakin took away Mace's defence and then he's breathing hard when he stands up again. I won't argue that he faked something: He faked to have no power for another force attack any longer and that's it



Again making things up ? Lucas tells us that Mace overpowers Sidious. The entire situation was not planned by Sidious since he tried to kill Mace in the lightsaber fight and he did try to kill him again with lightning. And when both things didn't work and he was - on the ground helpless without a chance to escape - he used Anakin as "last chance". He didn't have a reason to pull Anakin to the Dark Side with so many faked actions since Anakin thought he would need Sidious to save Padme - and that's the reason to save Sidious finally...he even tells that "I need him."



Yeah. The powerful Dark Women. Best feat: Trained Ki-Adi-Mundi who was tooled by 5 Clone Troopers. And 8 Jedi during the purge ? You mean putting the lightsaber to once head and igniting it (no defence) stabbing one from behind (again no defence) and then - with a legion of Clone Troopers firing at anything - killing Younglings, 2 Padawans and Cin Drallig. Impressive. The knights on Hapes ? I'm sure Vader just did go there alone...



Mercy. Where Sidious puts his lightsaber nearly on Windu's chest and still fails to stab him ?



He was faking to not have any power for another force attack because the one he tried to use failed against Windu's defence. What should he have done, huh ?



Would you please think once about the facts that:
a) He clearly revealed his intetion saying "You will die." before using his attack.
b) That this attack was powerful enough to melt his face away either because being redirected by Windu's lightsaber or he was using so much dark side energies.
c) Mace didn't have his lightsaber any longer and had his hand cut off just before Sidious used the second attack on him. So you totally miss the fact that Windu was weakened compared to the situation moments earlier where he deflected Sidious lightning.



It's nice how you ignore that there were at least 2,000 senators who wanted to resolve the war by diplomatic means and Sidious hindered it. It's nice how you make it up that many people thought the war was a plot of the Jedi (yeah right...they would love to get their order destroyed and therefore orchester a war that does that). And Sidious had a spare saber ? Where did he have it in his fight versus Windu. Hidden somewhere ? Would that have given him anything considering the fact that he was on the ground, couldn't get up, had his hands placed before his face and had a superior lightsaber duellists placing his own saber just in front of his face ?



Yeah...he was so universally loved that he had 2,000 star systems opposing against his politic not to mention that thousands of star systems joined the CIS every day. Much love there is for him.



Does it say he "absorbed all the energy from all Massasi" ? No ? Fine.
He didn't interact with Palpatine when Palpatine arrived at Yavin ? Is there any source saying that Palpatine once visited Yavin ? Then why Kun didn't talk to him ?
Where had he'd been "driven off by Luke" ? You're trying to tell us that Kun was charged up with the power of the Massasi up to a point where he was stronger than he was when he was alive and then you tell us that Luke - for some mysterious reason - could weaken Kun by just refusing to serve him when Kun visits him in his dreams ?
And you keep ignoring the point that Kun didn't reproduce the feats of the living Kun and said himself that he was weakend so much that he couldn't even talk and how it took him millenia of training to do just that.

1. Thanks for the novelization. Now I can use the EU explanation that the Dark Side over the years deformed him and that he changes his face at will. And nice how you ignore that that exertion quote comes from Lucas and he was using his deformity to sway the Senate.

2. Because if Sidious says something, IT MUST BE TRUE! He obviously meant to give up his power at the end of the war! Yeah, he couldn't trick Mace and Anakin despite how Lucas said he was doing just the latter...

3. I want the quote where he says the lightning deformed him, because Lucas said he was faking from the moment Anakin enters the room.

4. No such thing as coincidence. Proof it wasn't planned and Sidious didn't want to be overpowered for Anakin's benefit. Sidious knew Anakin needed him, he'd been building that for thirteen years. He was trusting Anakin from the second anakin entered the room.

5. You mean 'shot from behind by men he trusted.' And the Dark Woman was described as one of the best. Eight masters, noone was stabbed from behind or 'lightsaber put to the head.' Numerous Jedi in the Jedi, including Cin, and he faced the Hapes Knights alone.

6. Riiiiight, because Sidious can't lie...let's ignore how in the EU he alters his face, let's ignore how there were dozens of other things but the lightning including the force push he later uses AND he had a spare saber, let's ignore how he wanted to trick Anakin AND the senate...leet's ignore all that because we hate Sidious. Maybe he wasn't using that spare saber because of wanting to get Anakin to the dark side? Valid reason right there

7. Gee, he only MANIPULATED all that...the vast majority of the Republic loved him, period.

8. Yes, it says Kun absorbed the energy from the Massassi. And he was only weakened after being driven off by Luke and had to get to Gantoris to get power back. And as for this stupid 'couldn't do what he did when he was alive'...we never saw him melt stone when he was alive. It's like trying to score a touchdown in baseball, it's a completely different scenario. As for Palpatine going to Yavin and taking what Kun got? Complete Locations. And Palpatine either didn't awaken Kun or he simply ignored him. Mara said it herself: Palp'd consider Kun the definition of failure

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Thanks for the novelization. Now I can use the EU explanation that the Dark Side over the years deformed him and that he changes his face at will. And nice how you ignore that that exertion quote comes from Lucas and he was using his deformity to sway the Senate.


Are you just an idiot ? Just a simple question. He basically tells use that he would restore the face if he could, yet, he can't. He can't change ihs face at will and he later simply made the best out of the situation "as he always does".



Now you have gone too far, fanboy. Here is the original text of Lucas in the commentary and everbody having a ROTS DVD can go and check it and see what a dumbass liar you are.

Lucas:
"This sequence always started with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine uses his powers and tries to destroy Mace and Mace reflecting his rays back with his lightsaber. And it was always that Anakin cut the lightsaber from his hand.
But the part in which he pretends that he loses power and being weak was something that I added later. Because it moves the point in which Anakin turns to the moment right here...and it's clear that he (Anakin) wants him (Sidious) to go on trial so that he can pump him for information about how to get this powers..."

Lucas over. Than follows Knoll stating that "the exertion and the lightning reflected back at him" is what turns him into the Emperor we later see.

So where is Lucas telling Sidious faked anything from the point Anakin enters the office ? Where does Lucas say that Sidious tricked Anakin and Mace. You are a fanboy and nothing more than a poor liar and now better get back into your hole and shut the door behind you.



See quote from Lucas above. Liars can't save Sidious. Period.



Yeah because you have presented lies and lies again we will surely thrust you. The Dark Women descriped as one of the best ? Where ? Source and page number please. Vader killing eight Jedi Masters during the purge ? Source please. Vader facing the Knights on Hapes alone ? Source please.



Let's just keep on lying and lying and throw more lies into the forum just because we are a ridiculous Sidious fanboy who can't accept that he's getting pwned and pwned again. Let's just make more statements up. Let's just ignore Lucas statements. Let's just worship idiocy and lies just to get pwned over and over again in defence of our beloved character. Let's just ignore the point that nobody agrees with us because we have nothing but lies and twisted interpretation of invents to back our point up. Let's just be Lightsnake.



Yeah. That's because the entire Jedi Order and 2,000 Senators looked at him as if he was a tyrant who kept his position longer than necessary. Let's just ignore that all that planets joined the CIS because realizing that the Senate was corrupt and listening to Sidious. Let's just ignore all that because Sidious manipulated it. It doesn't matter. Obviously many people had something against him and his politic, no ?



Blah, blah, blah....blah, blah....blah. Discussion with notorious liars is beyond me. Go on and dig your own grave deeper and deeper...

I would have to say Ragnos and Exar pwn the newbies.

Well we all know that Ragnos and NJO Luke are the greatest and most powerful of their respective "light and dark" sides. I can't say who's better because I'm a Ragnos fan but I know NJO Luke becomes the greatest of the greatest.. If I were to see 1 fight it would be those 2 going at it for the title of Greatest ever. However, Kun and DE Sidious are equals in terms of Force powers, but as we know Kun would be superior to Sidious in light saber combat.. Sorry Lightsnake.

I wouldn't even give Sidious enough credit to call him equal to Kun in force ability.

why not? sidious did accomplish quite alot of feats, unless you count sith magic/spells then yeh sidious doesnt compare, yeh ragnos vs NJO luke in an actual book would be a good fight

Feat wars? *rolls eyes*

Not really. Luke would get curbstomped by Ragnos.

Luke was even afraid of Ragnos just from his spirit. Really... How is Luke "omg I am teh oober furceg0d with no trayning" Skywalker going to beat him? More "I swing like I have twenty sabers" hyperbole?

If it's stated in the novels then it has to be part of the argument. If you're not going to take the novel seriously then why would you take stupid comic books seriously?

Originally posted by tdtd
If it's stated in the novels then it has to be part of the argument. If you're not going to take the novel seriously then why would you take stupid comic books seriously?

I think you're totally missing the point: many of the instances that NJO Luke supporters use are clearly hyperbolic statements, even if they are used in the text. "He swings as though he had twenty sabers". Come on now.

Ah..Yes I am missing the point then... I thought that the novels make him seem like a God though

It's hyperbole. How can Luke "swing like he has 20 sabers"? Does the individual know precisely what it would be like to have 20 sabers? What proficiency are those sabers being swung at? &c.

In KotOR, it's remarked that the ground shook as Exar walked. While it's possible, it's more than likely hyperbole, aka exaggeration.

Hyperbole is not admissable in an objective comparison.

yo illustrious i love you
and **** you lightsnake

where has lightsnake been?

I guess his been fantasing about luke skywalker that he is now officially sleeping with a luke toy each night and day and forgetting about everything else

No he lost the debate and left because he couldn't deal with all his points being defeated... It happens a lot.

Kun's spirit>JA Luke>DE Luke>DE Palpatine so Flesh and Blood Kun should be>NJO Luke.

Wow, cringeworthy stuff in here.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Kun's spirit>JA Luke>DE Luke>DE Palpatine so Flesh and Blood Kun should be>NJO Luke.

That's not how it works at all, lmao.

Sometimes I think you're trolling.

These old threads are comedy gold mines.

Good thread. Sheev solos.

Team 1.

Team 2, not all that close tbh