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Ok, apologies for yet ANOTHER Revan vs Exar Kun - but I haven't seen this particular take on it before.
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I've seen a lot of Revan vs Exar Kun threads, but something that never seems to be taken into account, is that Kun, while exceptionally talented, isn't particuarly "uber" at all until he's obtained a Sith amulet (which amplifies one's abilities last I heard)... and if I recall correctly, he later aquires a second from Ulic. Exar Kun was good but without the added power of his Sith artifacts, was he really the unconquerable individual people seem to believe him to be?

So, both munchkins are wearing nothing but traditional Jedi robes, they're both handed their single weapon of choice (DBL in Exar Kun's case) and told to duke it out. They have no other equipment.

Who wins?

Personally, I'd give this to Revan - Exar Kun has never struck me as all that impressive based on his own power, whereas estimations of Revan's strength seemed to skyrocket upwards once KotOR II hit the stores... he's presented to us as a near mythic chosen-onesque figure. You can believe this to be a bad decision, but you can't deny that that is the way the game tries to sell him.

(apologies if this poll *has* been done before - I couldn't find it on the search, so just feel free to redirect me if needs be)

P.S - I actually find it pretty funny when comparisons are made between Kun and Revan, since KotOR I quite clearly altered elements of the TotJ era... and not just aesthetically.

I mean, we're told that all Kun's temples were bombed to high heaven by the Republic fleet (as opposed to a Jedi light blockage thing), and that he converted hundreds of Jedi (as opposed to twenty)... so really, comparing TotJ Kun with KotOR Revan makes no sense... since TotJ Kun might be completely different to the Kun that's described in KotOR in terms of power and ability.

Wow, look at me rant. Heh.

You recall incorrectly. Ulic keeps his. Exar either finds or, more likely, builds at least another one.

However, since we have no real way of knowing how much his amplifications boosted his power, there's little to go on. I'll give it to Kun based on his superior knowledge of Sith Magic.

----

P.S. The reason Kun isn't "uber" until he obtains his first amulet is because he hadn't yet embraced the Dark Side.

We have no way of knowing... Absolutely no way, Kun without his amulets is an unknown.

I have to hand it to Exar.

First: We don't know if Revan had access to some power amplification. If you consider the vast amount of different lightsaber crystals that boost up your power and other equipment that makes you stronger - it's hard to judge Revan without it since we don't know what he had access to...

Second: Even if you cut off the amulet. The amulet, as far as I remember is never mentioned to boost Kun's force power - it just amplifies it when he uses the amulet. He didn't use the amulet when he defeated Vodo (somebody that was competent enough in terms of fighting to go and fight the Dark Lord of the Sith with a walking stick) nor did he while he was "stalemating" (at least) with Ulic.

Third: Even when Kun clearly didn't have access to that amulet - while being a force spirit - he was able to destroy Luke's Jedi Holocron, together with Kyp seperate Luke's spirit from his body, control one of Luke's student, knock another one out without effort, kill another just to force choke them all at once. And this is just his spirit.

So in conclusion. Kun seems to have the greater force potential and he seems to have the greater knowledge when it comes to Sith Magic (did he use the amulet to freeze the Senate ? Can't remember atm...). In terms of lightsaber combat Revan has defeated Malak and (with a little help from his friends) Bandon. That stands. But somehow Ulic - who was a lightsaber prodigy and even able to defeat a Jedi in a lightsaber fight without having any force powers left - and Vodo - who had to be a master combatant if he thought he would be able to defeat Kun using a stick - seem to be more impressive to me. And Kun defeated them. Kun would also use his own lightsaber style, a unique weapon AND he has an armor made of cortosis which would give Revan some trouble.

The only advantage for Revan that I see would be his battle precog but I doubt that this alone would be enough to defeat Kun.

Fair dos - but that's just what I'm saying, we have no way of knowing how powerful Kun is without his amulets - nor exactly how much they boost him by... so is it really accurate to state we really know where Kun is in the grand scheme of things at all?

I mean, looking at the amulets, I'd say they were using a material similar (if not identical) to the Kaibur crystal...

Anyway, who ever said it had to be an exact science?

As for it being the dark side that provides his "instant uberness" - well, why? Did Anakin increase that dramatically in power when he embraced the dark side? Not from my perspective, but I guess that's all it's about really, perspective...

Anyway, while I will forever think that the sudden upswing in Revan's power in KotOR II was just pandering to his huge fanbase (there was none of this "Power/Heart of the Force stuff" in KotOR I after all), I'll probably always think of the guy in a more positive light than Kun.

I mean, I always liked Ulic best anyway.

Originally posted by Ulicus
Fair dos - but that's just what I'm saying, we have no way of knowing how powerful Kun is without his amulets - nor exactly how much they boost him by... so is it really accurate to state we really know where Kun is in the grand scheme of things at all?

Kun without amulets is at least as powerful as he appears to be as a force spirit since he wouldn't have access to his amulets in that form. And even as a spirit he's damn powerful considering what he has done.



According to Nick Gillard he went from a level 8 duellist to a level 9 duellist just because of using the Dark Side which enabled him to "defeat" Dooku. So there is some "instant uberness" implied which would be logical since a Sith doesn't care much about killing people compared to a Jedi.

Going to the dark side increases one's combat abilities, or at least makes them easier. Sylvar was only able to claw Kun's face (when he was a padawan) because she gave in to rage.

And yes, we can know where Kun is in the grand scheme when he has his amulets because he's a known quantity. Without them, he is a relatively unknown quantity.

Originally posted by IKC
Going to the dark side increases one's combat abilities, or at least makes them easier. Sylvar was only able to claw Kun's face (when he was a padawan) because she gave in to rage.

And yes, we can know where Kun is in the grand scheme when he has his amulets because he's a known quantity. Without them, he is a relatively unknown quantity.

Fair enough - but isn't that I was saying? Without his amulets (as he is naturally) he is an unknown quantity.


@ Borbarad (I hadn't actually gotten around to addressing your points yet, my orginal reply was before I'd see your post)

Interesting points. When it comes to the amulet, I was always under the impression that it just made Kun stronger by wearing it. Much like wearing cortosis armour is going to protect you from lightsaber strikes... you don't need to switch it on, it just does its job. I could be perfectly wrong in this regard.



Secondly, I was certain that Kun was only able to do his big power drain "live on as a spirit thing", while strapped to a big focusing thing. He certainly didn't just sit there in an ordinary chair and "will it to happen", he had himself chained up and everything... performing and elaborate ritual. He may have also still been wearing the amulet (which has unknown properties lets say, like I said, I could be wrong about the level of its power amplification). Regardless, he didn't have any power increasing tools once he *was* a spirit... but by then he'd already used all the borrowed power from the Massassi to *become* the uber-ghost... albeit an imprisoned in his own temple uber-ghost.

*EDIT* Wait... did I say *uber* ghost? I have the strangest memory of a three year old Jacen fending him off with a lightsaber and then a group of Jedi apprentices extinguishing his spirit... Kun was on borrowed power - without anyone to drain, he could be beaten.
*Re-EDIT* Ok yeah, Vodo helped too. Whoops.

Regardless, there's no evidence to suggest that Revan couldn't do the same if he had access to the same knowledge (but if we go down that road, then everyone can beat everyone with everyone elses knowledge). All I'm saying is - there's nothing to suggest that Revan has less potential than Kun, if anything, going by Kreia's comments, you'd have thought he had *more* potential.

As for Revan's battle precog. I don't know why this is such a big "wow" factor. Didn't stop him being blasted from behind by his own apprentice... Granted, I'm sure he'd narrowed his focus on all the Jedi opponents he was facing and "shut out" the other stuff... but it still makes me laugh regardless.

Anyway, fact of the matter is - I just always found it confusing how everyone was "wow Exar", when I thought that most of the stuff he was accomplishing was about as impressive as Aleema blowing up a star. Yeah, that sounds WELL impressive, you might say - but its not like she did it through the use of her *own* power.... it was through an ancient sith device...

Basically, I think if you tooled both Revan and Exar up with the same gear, and gave them the same about of time to prepare, Revan would come out on top. Am I right? Hell if I know, it's just the gut feeling I get when I read through the comics/play the KotOR games.

The whole Nick Gillard combat "levels" thing... mehhh... I'm sorry, but I really don't put much faith in that. This is the guy that went on about how "Its totally impossible to beat Palpatine in a lightsaber duel, you think you're beating him but he's actually just drawing you in". And there's clearly not that much differnece between an 8 and a 9, Obi-Wan is "just" a level 8 and he manages to hold off Anakin's level 9 through superior experience and level headedness.

I said he was a relatively unknown quantity since we don't know if the amulets boost his power and, if so, how much.

For one, how in God's name is Kreia's word any better than Vodo's? He calls Exar Kun the most formidable student he has ever had. Kreia may be old, but she's not 600. Ergo, the correct assumption is that Kun has more potential.

Regarding the "wow Exar" point, the feats are entirely different. Exar freezes a room full of possibly millions of beings (depends on how many member worlds there were at the time) with, as the narration describes, "a Sith spell." Not a device or amulet. He also trashes Vodo in a saber duel even though the narration describes Vodo's staff as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

Gut feelings need to be supported with logic and evidence. Revan doesn't stack up.

Considering Vodo was teaching Crado and Sylvar...
And wasn't Kun far stronger in death thanks to all the given souls of the Massassi, the power he was able to draw from the temple and that he took from Gantoris?

Originally posted by IKC
I said he was a relatively unknown quantity since we don't know if the amulets boost his power and, if so, how much.

Yeah, we don't know "if". Ergo unknown.



I didn't say it was, but did Vodo train Revan? Do we know who Vodo had to compare him to over 600 years? No. Do I think people with Kun's potential come along all the time? Hell no, the guy's exceptional. If anything it's something of an oddity that we've got another legendary Sith Lord so shortly after him. (I really think that KotOR should have been set a good MILLENNIUM after Kun's time...)



Again, you don't know how much power Kun draws from the amulet. Everyone's fixated on whether or not he "used the amulet for this", or "used the amulet for that" - I'm saying that I think its, essentially, got the same sort of properties as the kaibur crystal. It makes him super-Sith. Do I know for sure? Nah. It's just what it looks like and it seems to have those sorts of properties.



Well then the narration was wrong...




No they don't, that's why they're gut feelings.

"I don't like that guy"
"Why, he's done nothing wrong"
"Just a gut feeling"

If I was arguing that I was correct, then you'd be accurate... but I've not claimed that.

Basically, I don't think Exar Kun of TotJ is that impressive. Exar Kun of the trembling ground as described in KotOR however, is. In the comics, the 'Great Sith War' is comprised of... four battles or something? I often get told "Oh, its just the highlights" - it's not. I scoured the Sith War comics looking for areas where it says "months pass as the conflict escalates", or even points where one could *assume* that months pass and more battles are fought- that's all I wanted. But no. Similarly, Kun converts a measly twenty Jedi in the comics - according to KotOR he converts hundreds.

Revan has a huge "overrated" stamp on his forehead - TotJ Kun should have a bigger one.

Yes Lightsnake. In all his six hundred years, Vodo only trained three apprentices. You got it spot-on!



Quoting from the other thread:





Yes, but reason would tell you that Vodo's seen far more force users than Kreia's had, including even Freedon Nadd.



Okay, if you don't know for sure... why does this thread exist?



The narration isn't wrong. The narrator in TOTJ is omniscient. However, the narrator I quoted is from the beginning of DLotS whereas the fight in question is in TSW. Still, there's nothing to suggest that Vodo's suddenly lost the ability to make his staff like that.



I would argue that TOTJ Exar Kun, who destroys centuries and millenia-old Jedi Masters like they were nothing, is much more impressive than the Kun described in KOTOR by a paranoid, rambling rodian.

But I've always maintained that the Sith War was moreso a few spectacular acts of terrorism than a real war. Whoever's telling you that it's "just the highlights" is exaggerating: there were more fights, they just weren't very large. Mostly shipyard raids. There were very few real battles and all.

However, this is really irrelevant to a fight. This is a battle between two men, not a feat war of what they've accomplished.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, but reason would tell you that Vodo's seen far more force users than Kreia's had, including even Freedon Nadd.

Yeah... sure, but just because he's seen more force users than Qui-Gon Jinn doesn't mean that Qui-Gon Jinn didn't see what potentially a far more powerful being than Exar Kun....



Because I wanted to see what other people thought. Time was when these "versus" things were hypothetical.



It was only written by a person, the person was trying to put the emphasis on the fact that Kun's achieved what was *thought* to be an impossible feat. From a linguistic standpoint, he's wrong. It's like if someone wrote, "a silent whisper" - obviously they're trying to get across that its REALLY quiet, but they've gone about it completely the wrong way about it.

Though really, I guess it depends on how you're defining "powerful" - I just took it to mean "yeah, more powerful than the lightsaber, but not Kun's rage".

I concede the point.



Yeah, but one assumes that KotOR Kun did that too in addition to all his rumbleworthyness. At least I did.



That's the impression I got too, I found it irritating.



You're right, I just went off on a tangent.

Oh, yes, show me where I even implied Vodo was teaching only Crado and Sylvar!

And yes, the Sith War was incredibly small scale and Kun never even led a battle personally...I blame Ulic's idiocy.

If Kun had ever fought and destroyed masters who showed themselves capable of real things....not incompetents like Odan and Vodo-who knew the historical precedent of Jedi infiltrating the Darkside, not Vodo who for some reason neglects to use that damn wall of light he and Nomi used on Kun....blocking Kun from the force may've helped a BIT

It makes it seem far more likely. If I shoot a basketball 1000 times from 50 feet away, my chances are far better of making a basket than if I shoot just 5.

And besides, we KNOW Vodo has trained some of the best Jedi in the order, because it was stated in TOTJ. He's 600 years old, so it's also reasonable to assume he saw Freedon Nadd. Freedon Nadd singlehandedly conquered an entire warring planet. His spirit instakilled another force user; it's entirely possible he defeated Naga Sadow's spirit.

The argument posed that Revan may have been superior is moot, as it's just so purely speculation it's pointless. Meanwhile Vodo's quote is absolute, Kun was the most formidable student Vodo ever taught.



A silent whisper is used in a literary, rhetorical sense. Just like "deafening silence" or other such oxymoronica. Using an objective comparison such as staff is stronger than lightsaber (staff > lightsaber) is not so easily defeated by arguing the narrator is wrong.



Why are the two being described differently? They are both referring to the same individual. The same guy that demonstrated such immense dark side powers as to make the earth tremble, or to instakill a millenia old Jedi, or to fling other Jedi around like ragdolls beneath his notice.



The mere fact you're degrading his quote by uttering something as stupid as "Considering Vodo was teaching Crado and Sylvar..." indicates you're attempting to undermine the value of that quote. Plain and simple.



Substantiate. Does it ever say he was stronger in death than in life? Does it ever use abilities that greatly exceeded what was shown he was capable in life?

Short answer: No!



Since when was "powerful and revered" Vodo an incompetent? I like how you infuse your own bias into analysis. Anyone that Kun beat must instantly be a weakling.

Originally posted by Illustrious
It makes it seem far more likely. If I shoot a basketball 1000 times from 50 feet away, my chances are far better of making a basket than if I shoot just 5.

And besides, we KNOW Vodo has trained some of the best Jedi in the order, because it was stated in TOTJ. He's 600 years old, so it's also reasonable to assume he saw Freedon Nadd. Freedon Nadd singlehandedly conquered an entire warring planet. His spirit instakilled another force user; it's entirely possible he defeated Naga Sadow's spirit.

The argument posed that Revan may have been superior is moot, as it's just so purely speculation it's pointless. Meanwhile Vodo's quote is absolute, Kun was the most formidable student Vodo ever taught.



A silent whisper is used in a literary, rhetorical sense. Just like "deafening silence" or other such oxymoronica. Using an objective comparison such as staff is stronger than lightsaber (staff > lightsaber) is not so easily defeated by arguing the narrator is wrong.



Why are the two being described differently? They are both referring to the same individual. The same guy that demonstrated such immense dark side powers as to make the earth tremble, or to instakill a millenia old Jedi, or to fling other Jedi around like ragdolls beneath his notice.



The mere fact you're degrading his quote by uttering something as stupid as "Considering Vodo was teaching Crado and Sylvar..." indicates you're attempting to undermine the value of that quote. Plain and simple.



Substantiate. Does it ever say he was stronger in death than in life? Does it ever use abilities that greatly exceeded what was shown he was capable in life?

Short answer: No!



Since when was "powerful and revered" Vodo an incompetent? I like how you infuse your own bias into analysis. Anyone that Kun beat must instantly be a weakling.

1. We know Vodo trained Crado and Sylvar. And given the best of the Order were total morons, not that impressive...We never saw Vodo as anything but an incompetent. Hm, we know what Exar's doing...but we don't even try to counsel him! Let's show him violence his bad by kicking his ass! Let's not share the information he's behind the war! Let's decide to NOT restrain him and enter into a futile fight! Let's NOT use the damn block technique with Nomi and totally end the war!

2. Freedon Nadd personally took on a planet's army? I think you mean: "He used Sith magic to make them believe him a God." Insta killed a force user? You mean 'took the soul from Ommin who had just had the only thing keeping him alive destroyed.

3. In life....did Kun ever have massive areas of the dark side to focus his power on with the life energy of an entire race? Ever read I, Jedi?

If anything, the Jedi Order that Sidious topples was filled with the more total of morons. How does subjective statements like this get you anywhere?



Missed the part where he demolished the beast riders? And did you ever see that feat duplicated? I suppose Sidious could have found that bit useful before he was tossed into a reactor core.



In life, he had a large amount of sith paraphenelia that you complain about incessantly, he doesn't have that in death.

So which is it? Is the amulets that power him up or the life energy? You can't have your cake and eat it, hypocrite.

In death, do you ever see him blasting holes through walls with just the force?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. We know Vodo trained Crado and Sylvar. And given the best of the Order were total morons, not that impressive...We never saw Vodo as anything but an incompetent. Hm, we know what Exar's doing...but we don't even try to counsel him! Let's show him violence his bad by kicking his ass! Let's not share the information he's behind the war! Let's decide to NOT restrain him and enter into a futile fight! Let's NOT use the damn block technique with Nomi and totally end the war!

I like how anyone who doesn't fight Sidious or support your blatant bias is a "moron", or "not that impressive" or "weak and incompetent". That's the majority of your counter arguments, LS. "(I think) Person A sucks, therefore Person B who beat the shit out of A sucks. Person C (Whom I think is my fictional god) can do random unrelated feat X, which (I perceive) is better than the sheer displays of power and badassedry of Person B. Therefore, Person C beats Person B!"

Viola! Lightsnake logic!



So Onderon had -never- seen a Force sensitive before, huh? They saw some minor tricks by Freedan Nadd and they surrendered their planet? This, from a civilization based on fighting the hostile jungle and their brethren? This is like Gandalf lighting off fireworks and Transylvania surrendering to him. What a ridiculous, unsupported speculation.



Hm. Did Sidious ever master any fighting forms? No. Therefore anyone with a mastered style would pwn him. Wait... that makes no sense!

Did Sidious ever rule over a Sith Empire of numerous Sith Lords of great power and age who created artifacts that make the Deathstar look like a paperweight? No. Therefore Ragnos, Simus, and Sadow would pwn him, huh? Wait... that makes no sense!

Did Sidious ever make the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs?

Seriously... Feat Wars: Return of the Fanboy.

Lying, hyperbole-using, circular reasoning fanboys can't save Sidious. QE-****ing-D.

Originally posted by Illustrious
If anything, the Jedi Order that Sidious topples was filled with the more total of morons. How does subjective statements like this get you anywhere?



Missed the part where he demolished the beast riders? And did you ever see that feat duplicated? I suppose Sidious could have found that bit useful before he was tossed into a reactor core.



In life, he had a large amount of sith paraphenelia that you complain about incessantly, he doesn't have that in death.

So which is it? Is the amulets that power him up or the life energy? You can't have your cake and eat it, hypocrite.

In death, do you ever see him blasting holes through walls with just the force?

1. What Jedi in the PT turned around in the middle of battle to lecture an opponent? Were any Jedi in the OJO described as greatest swordsmen the Order'd produced or Avatars of light, strongest foes the darkness had ever faced, etc?

2. Demolished the Beast Riders? Nadd failed against them and his DESCENDANTS were having trouble with them 400 years later..

3.Your point being? The knowledge would stick with him, and considering he left it by Yavin and used Yavin to focus his powers. And the life forces of the Massassi....This is him as a spirit...did you not read I, Jedi?

4. Yes, I'm sure in death, Exar was being squeezed by a giant Leviathan and needed to react suddenly as he could to save his ass. We see his melt stone and throw Corran around a bit, as well as use illusions upon the students.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
I like how anyone who doesn't fight Sidious or support your blatant bias is a "moron", or "not that impressive" or "weak and incompetent". That's the majority of your counter arguments, LS. "(I think) Person A sucks, therefore Person B who beat the shit out of A sucks. Person C (Whom I think is my fictional god) can do random unrelated feat X, which (I perceive) is better than the sheer displays of power and badassedry of Person B. Therefore, Person C beats Person B!"

Viola! Lightsnake logic!



So Onderon had -never- seen a Force sensitive before, huh? They saw some minor tricks by Freedan Nadd and they surrendered their planet? This, from a civilization based on fighting the hostile jungle and their brethren? This is like Gandalf lighting off fireworks and Transylvania surrendering to him. What a ridiculous, unsupported speculation.



Hm. Did Sidious ever master any fighting forms? No. Therefore anyone with a mastered style would pwn him. Wait... that makes no sense!

Did Sidious ever rule over a Sith Empire of numerous Sith Lords of great power and age who created artifacts that make the Deathstar look like a paperweight? No. Therefore Ragnos, Simus, and Sadow would pwn him, huh? Wait... that makes no sense!

Did Sidious ever make the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs?

Seriously... Feat Wars: Return of the Fanboy.

Lying, hyperbole-using, circular reasoning fanboys can't save Sidious. QE-****ing-D.

1. You turn around in a firefight to lecture your student? You make the ****ups Vodo did? Yeah, that's just plain idiotic. And please, what did Kun or Ragnos do that was better than Sidious? Destroyed a fleet. Remember, an entire Republic fleet using a technique described as possibly the most powerful force technique and stronges tSith technique....wow, when you get right down to it...you have no argument and need to resort to insults!

2. Nadd saved them from the beasts...and by the time of Ulic, Onderonians had only JUST gotten space travel...yeah, Nadd was the first force user they'd seen do anything, kinda like the Sith with the Hundred Years darkness remnants.

3. Artifacts that made the DS a paperweight? Name one thing the Sith had that could destroy planets. Just one now...we know Sidious had weapons to destroy solar systems already...Did Sidious ever master any weapons and styles? According to Nick Gillard, yes! According to the Character guide, yep! According to Darth Maul? Oh yeah.

Yes, go worship your ponytailed god

lmao

You didn't even rationally (Or maturely, for that matter) address anything I said. The points are thus:

1- You liberally insult characters like Vodo and Odan-Urr, but Mace Windu and Yoda and Luke (Who all fought against Sidious, your favorite character and your virtual reason for being here) are all described as "the greatest (blank) of all time" or "the biggest threat to the dark side of all time" and other grandiose statements which are, of course, echoed only by you. You stack up those who threaten Sidious and tear down those who we pit Sidious against. Clear bias. Don't even try and deny it.

2- Really? I find it hard to believe that an entire planet of sentients had never seen or experienced the Force before. Huh. Onderon must just be a dead spot in the galaxy then. Nadd must have brought the Force there, for sure.

3- lol... For one thing, a ship that predates the Death Star by millenia and can make a star blow up is a far deadlier device, especially since it has very quick execution and is force powered, thus costing less resources.

Second, Sidious isn't canonically tied to any one style as having mastered it, and Nick Gillard says that Sidious can pwn all (Which is clearly not the case since Yoda and Mace both pwned him in combat, along with DE Luke.) So therefore NG + Guide = unsupported bullshit.

1. Yeah, the same cyborg who'd been his dog? The same cyborg who was the Chosen One destined to kill him? And Arca turned his back in a firefight to lecture his student.

2. Yes, because it's SO easy to behead your former best friend. Read Shatterpoint. And do you have any idea WHY they had that no attatchment rule? I could provide numerous examples, one of whihc resulted in Qui-Gon nearly falling when his beloved died.

3. Ki was a recent council member. And considering the probable extinction of the Sith at Ruusan....hell, the Jedi thought Bane was dead before Ruusan.

4. Yeah? I'd like to see this source where Nadd takes on an army.

5. Can't attack the info, so you attack the phrasing? He was immersed in the knowledge of thousands of years, that simple. And that statement is of the source. Yours is not.

And because we don't see it, it isn't true! Right. And Want the quote where Mace is called one of the greatest swordsmen in the Order? And Yoda as the greatest enemy the darkness ever faced?

I provide a source and it's suddenly dismissed. We know Palpatine killed plenty JEdi in the purge, was considered incredibly powerful by Dooku, knwon to be so powerful in the dark side, war itself'd become his weapon. By the way, you incapable of reading where Luke became an avatar of the Force or where all the galaxy's force sensitives felt the duel? Luke is unquestionably uber.

That stuff is official, your opinion of it is not. C'mon, when'd other Sith suck the lives of millions? When'd they create force storms or use force lightning to wipe out small armies?

What a worthless Sith Kun is, killing old men and getting owned by toddlers.

Did you just not at all see the points I was getting at? Hm. I never thought I'd see a human mind work completely out of logic before. you sure proved me wrong on that point at least.

It's just hilarious: Post passages and people will still try to tear it down...I could have a Lucas quote and it'd never be accepted for some reason for another

The same thing you've been doing with narrative descriptions in GAotS?

Wow, I never knew someone could set themselves up for that so well. It's almost back to the day of suffixing "your mom" on the end of statements and questions.

Wow, considering that godlike thing applied to one part of that comic, is duplicated for Luke and Palpatine and goes in length to describe Palpatine...Unlike GAotS, it shows Palpatine's mastery rather well...and of all the Sith and Jedi. And describes them as a clash of the titans. And mentions every force sensitive felt it.

Yeah, nice ignoring that

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, considering that godlike thing applied to one part of that comic, is duplicated for Luke and Palpatine and goes in length to describe Palpatine...Unlike GAotS, it shows Palpatine's mastery rather well...and of all the Sith and Jedi. And describes them as a clash of the titans. And mentions every force sensitive felt it.

Yeah, nice ignoring that

Nice ignoring how their power is described as "titanic," how their teachings created generations of powerful sith, of which Sidious is one in a long chain. How they are the at "the zenith of Sith power." How they are described as fearsome enemies that would make the force users of later generations look like children (according to Kreia), how the Luke describes that Ragnos would take the combined might of the entirety of the Jedi Academy (years after he beat Sidious) to defeat, and then proceeds to send the entire force to Korriban.

Nice ignoring facts that span the Chronological Guide, TOTJ, KotOR, JK:A, and is referenced through numerous post-ROTJ works, including Dark Empire themselves.

Don't start with me about ignoring. I already told you about mastery of all Jedi and Sith being moot because it was later retconned and extended the history of the Sith far longer than it had originally been planned. And then Janus already pointed out to unlikelihood of the circumstance. You've done nothing to counter it.

You've propped up those enemies of Sidious and degraded the enemies of the others, even though the PT Jedi Order showed some of the biggest bonehead moves ever.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Nice ignoring how their power is described as "titanic," how their teachings created generations of powerful sith, of which Sidious is one in a long chain. How they are the at "the zenith of Sith power." How they are described as fearsome enemies that would make the force users of later generations look like children (according to Kreia), how the Luke describes that Ragnos would take the combined might of the entirety of the Jedi Academy (years after he beat Sidious) to defeat, and then proceeds to send the entire force to Korriban.

Nice ignoring facts that span the Chronological Guide, TOTJ, KotOR, JK:A, and is referenced through numerous post-ROTJ works, including Dark Empire themselves.

Don't start with me about ignoring. I already told you about mastery of all Jedi and Sith being moot because it was later retconned and extended the history of the Sith far longer than it had originally been planned. And then Janus already pointed out to unlikelihood of the circumstance. You've done nothing to counter it.

You've propped up those enemies of Sidious and degraded the enemies of the others, even though the PT Jedi Order showed some of the biggest bonehead moves ever.

1. At the time of that empire which fell. You know something? YOU keep ignoring a description of Sidious as godlike, YOU keep ignoring how Kun is downplayed horribly in the EU by Stackpole and Zahn, you keep ignoring how Sidious and Luke's duel was called a clash of the titans felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy.

2. Cute. when were there references to the Ancients' power in DE? They created Ulic and some of the TOTJ setting, that's it.

3. and you failed to show ANY proof of this retcon bull. It didn't extend it, the newest Chronology guide shortened it! Dark Empire never MENTIONED the Ancient Sith Empire's length! it's now two thousand years and DE's still as strong as it ever was, even STRENGTHENED by the new Chronology and Dark Side source book.

4. As opposed to the degrading bull of Sidious himself and the propping up of people who never did a thing like Vodo and Odan?

You mean how Kun downplayed BEFORE TOTJ was written by Anderson?

And because a spirit who managed to take over the body of one of the most powerful students in the academy and held Luke at mercy until he had help from the rest of the academy and Vodo is being "downplayed horribly"?

I could give that fact to 99.999% of the fans and they wouldn't agree that he was downplayed.



Again, because DE came BEFORE TOTJ. Just like how Mace Windu was never referenced ONCE in the OT, does that mean he doesn't exist? Your so called "best swordsman"?



How does shortening the Sith Empire to 2000 years strengthen your argument, that just seems to show me that Sidious only had the knowledge of the Brotherhood of Darkness and beyond. The later canon indicates that the peak of the Sith Empire came before that, also known as the ancient sith. 'Kay? There's your retcon.



Have you ever considered how I was doing that to mock your ridiculous assertions about other characters in your pursuit to be a Sidious apologist? Your reading comprehension needs some work, man.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You mean how Kun downplayed BEFORE TOTJ was written by Anderson?

And because a spirit who managed to take over the body of one of the most powerful students in the academy and held Luke at mercy until he had help from the rest of the academy and Vodo is being "downplayed horribly"?

I could give that fact to 99.999% of the fans and they wouldn't agree that he was downplayed.



Again, because DE came BEFORE TOTJ. Just like how Mace Windu was never referenced ONCE in the OT, does that mean he doesn't exist? Your so called "best swordsman"?



How does shortening the Sith Empire to 2000 years strengthen your argument, that just seems to show me that Sidious only had the knowledge of the Brotherhood of Darkness and beyond. The later canon indicates that the peak of the Sith Empire came before that, also known as the ancient sith. 'Kay? There's your retcon.



Have you ever considered how I was doing that to mock your ridiculous assertions about other characters in your pursuit to be a Sidious apologist? Your reading comprehension needs some work, man.

1. Umm...the Hand of Thrawn Duology and I, Jedi were written AFTER the JA Trilogy. And as a spirit, he was stronger than he was in life, he was NOT a normal force ghost. And ok, he didn't posses Kyp, he tricked him and TOGETHER and together alone, they bested Luke when they had the beennfit of him holding back and being surpised. Kunw as trapped before Vodo and Luke got involved. Just look at the scene where Mara confronts him

2. So DE came before TOTJ, So what? Is TOTJ invalid because of KOTOR? After all, there are quite a few inconsistencies! Should all DE's expressions on Palp's power-and a lot of it is recent, including what I've posted- and stored in the Chronology and Dark Side sourcebook....two recent items. DE has not been retconned. TOTJ elements have. And Qui-Gon is never referenced in OT either, point?

3. you mean the same Sidious who chilled with the spirits on Korriban, went to previously undiscovered Sith worlds, took a a helluva lot of info from the ancient empire AND the Jedi ancients, we know he got info from the Prophets of the Dark Side...and notice the Sith empire fell so it don't mean a damn to later Sith Orders. Proof of this peak in reference to things OTHER than Ragnos's empire

Kun would win end of story.

given that badass sig avatar, I'm almost inclined to agree

May've forgot this one:

And so there they were, Palpatine the Undying and Luke Skywalker, the twin and opposing demigods. The swirl of their light and darkness was terrifying, a river of power that threatened to sweep away all around it. Luke's vast courage could never hope to overcome the Emperor's vast power; yet the Emperor's egotistical self-love could never hope to match Luke's altruistic self-sacrifice. They battled with more than just their lightsabers; they battled with their whole selves, mind, body, and soul. It was a battle between the Sith Lord who ruled and the Jedi Knight who served; the narcissist who exploited and abused and the philanthropist who defended and comforted; the darkness that chilled and the light that warmed; the abyss that consumed and the love that begot. It was a battle between the darkest evil and the purest good.

Ah, yes it is a Sith Wyrm, my error: According to the DS sourcebook, it's an altered space slug

I, Jedi dealt more with Kyp than anything else, and it never definitively knocks Kun down as many pegs as you claim. Especially since spirit Kun never duplicated a few regular feats that the flesh and blood Kun did. So unless it states that "the spirit Kun was >>>> living Kun" and "living Kun never WTFpwned jedi masters like they were nothing," the point is moot.



DE's sourcebook came before TOTJ with the premise of having a shorter history of Sith than it did. Therefore it has to be adjusted when TOTJ comes up and supplants it with newer data. So any statement that Sidious was "the most powerful Sith of all time!" needs to be re-evaluated. Granted that I don't seem to recall where the wording led to that effect to begin with.



DE and TOTJ have both had newer data come out for it, therefore both of them had been retconned to adjust the data given. You just can't allow bias to lock you into how you fit the data. If the OT sourcebook says that "Obi-Wan created the ability to become a force ghost," then yes, the PT retconned it. Just like the sourcebook claimed the Sith Empire was shorter than it was.



How the hell can it be previously undiscovered and Sith at the same time? These worlds were part of the Sith Empire. It never claimed that the Sith only had 3 planets in their Empire.



Yes, the Sith Empire fell, that would only make it more likely that Sith knowledge was lost. If you know anything about paleontology or even basic criminology, you'd realize that as time passes, details get lost so quickly it's hard to believe. The fact that he finds them from the "ancients" doesn't help his cause. And it never mentions that he gained more proficiency in the Sith abilities than the ancients. Kun looted Sadow and Nadd's knowledge and stockpiled more than he could ever use, but it does not mean he suddenly had more capability of using them.



It was the Golden Age of the Sith, not of a five year period. In fact, when Kun was crowned, he was supposed to create another "golden age." Obviously he failed, but it shows that the Golden Age is more timeless than just a few centuries, it spans a few millenia.

1. He never MET any Jedi masters....and unlike Vodo and ODan, Luke was tested and Exar had to double team him. I, Jedi still had a large section on Kun. Just look at how Mara badmouths Kun and his lack of response. We know Sidious took what Kun had on Yavin, as well...

2. There was never a history of the Sith GIVEN nor did it claim to. The Dark Side sourcebook is VERY recent and supports PAlpatine's power as well.

3. But the OT sorucebook did nothing of the sort and the Dark Side sourcebook and Chronology have retconned TOTJ while the rest stands strong.

4. I meant undiscovered by others after the empire's fall, not undiscovered by Sith

5. It would make sense, but Palpatine still gained them and got what he did. Palpatine took what Kun got, he recovered items thought lost, he 'unlocked the secrets of the Force' from holocrons and absorbed their power...

6. I'd call the Golden Age 100 years of Marka Rule....and it applies to 'Of the SITH EMPIRE'...nothing beyond that....Wouldn't a thousand years of Sith dominion be a Golden Age as well?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He never MET any Jedi masters....and unlike Vodo and ODan, Luke was tested and Exar had to double team him. I, Jedi still had a large section on Kun. Just look at how Mara badmouths Kun and his lack of response. We know Sidious took what Kun had on Yavin, as well...

Wait a minute... are you saying Kun never MET any jedi masters? I really don't see how you got this response from Illustrious' statement.



Very recent? Wait a minute... are you talking about the Dark Side Sourcebook or the Dark Empire sourcebook? Five minutes ago you were using the latter...

Author(s) Michael Allen Horne
Editor(s)
Illustrator(s) Cam Kennedy
Publisher West End Games
Publish Date June 1993
Type Hardcover
ISBN 0874311942


I would call that pretty damn old actually. And TOTJ starts in the latter half of 1993, with The Sith Wars coming out in 1995 and Golden Age of the Sith Empire coming out in 1996. Therefore, TOTJ is neweer than the DE Sourcebook... For the obsolete roleplaying game.


3. But the OT sorucebook did nothing of the sort and the Dark Side sourcebook and Chronology have retconned TOTJ while the rest stands strong.

No, this is bullshit. Now you're arguing the Dark Side Sourcebook, which is a handbook for the WotC RPG, saying random statements in it overide TOTJ? Are you nuts? RPG canon is NOT canon at all!
Let's go over this AGAIN:

The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.


Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.



Proof that Palpatine has what Kun had? All of it after thousands of years? Proof that he used any of it? Mastered it? ANY PROOF AT ALL? Didn't think so. QED.



Golden Age isn't subject to Lightsnake's opinion, but the storytellers and Ragnos in-universe. Therefore, your observations are moot.

Oh, and QED.

Originally posted by Illustrious
It makes it seem far more likely. If I shoot a basketball 1000 times from 50 feet away, my chances are far better of making a basket than if I shoot just 5.

I didn't deny that, I'm just saying it wouldn't be unprecedented. My great grandfather lived into his ninties, which is considerably older than me - but he never saw the Star Wars prequels, because they weren't around when he was alive.

Similarly, Vodo never came across the likes of Revan, Bane, Anakin and Luke (well, until later) because he'd died before their coming. Am I saying Revan and Bane are necessarly better than Kun? No, just that Vodo could not have them to compare Kun to.

Maybe Kun was superior to them, maybe he wasn't. We don't know. Probability however, would suggest he was, yes.



Well, yeah, so's arguing about which fictional character is better than the other - and i'm not bashing it (I'm on this forum aren't I?) but none of this has a point. And I wasn't really *arguing* for it, just saying, "Hey, we don't really know" and leaving it at that.

We can assume Kun was superior however.



I don't know when I argued against that.



1. Never saw any "earth shaking where Kun walked" in the comics, though that may have just been to do with static panels.
2. KotOR describes (through Jolee) how Kun converted hundreds of Jedi to his cause
3. The Republic are said to have arrived at Yavin IV and bombed the place into submission

It's not so much *Kun* that's described differently, as the Great Sith War, but that leads to one thinking that since the Sith War was bigger and better, so was Kun himself. Originally, (in the backstory KJA wrote for JA) or so I've heard, there was supposed to be a far greater timespan between Exar and Ulic joining forces, and then their attacking the galaxy... everything got pretty condensed in the Sith War comics.

- One thing. Why is Kreia's statement about the ancient Dark Lords held as gospel, whereas her statement about Revan is not? Or, for that matter, what she later says about the Exile? (Which suggests tah Revan is not the be-all-and-end-all)

It's fair enough if people want to dismiss Kreia as a looney old bat but, I dunno, just seems a little odd to be bringing her in as support for the "Ancient Sith Lords pwned" argument, when everything else she says is written off as being Revan's/the Exile's ultimate fangirl.

It's likely SHE had also come across Exar Kun, given her age... so she could have compared both Revan and Kun. Maybe he looked like "even more power" to her, I've not got the foggiest. (Note: this isn't an 'argument' for anything, I freely admit that it is pure speculation, it does not need to be broken apart and analysed - look, see, I've already dismissed it)

Tis interesting regardless.

Anyway, this entire thread has both satisfied my curiousity and entertained me, so thanks for peoples contributions. I apologise if the 'speculative' nature of my posts has irritated people but hey, I'm not going to stop throwing questions out there just because "we can't know" - if that's the attitude humanity had taken, we'd never had advanced as a species.

Ok, well, I think I might lurk for a bit now - cya around and may you crush your enemies arguments, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their points.

So long as we're going to argue ridiculous sourcebooks, I'll point out that the Jedi Academy sourcebook calls Exar Kun the single most powerful force user of the time.

Since those idiots at Bioware put KOTOR only 40 years past the Sith War, that's very strong evidence that he's above Revan.

Originally posted by IKC
So long as we're going to argue ridiculous sourcebooks, I'll point out that the Jedi Academy sourcebook calls Exar Kun the single most powerful force user of the time.

Since those idiots at Bioware put KOTOR only 40 years past the Sith War, that's very strong evidence that he's above Revan.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I should go look through my collection of sourcebooks for more hyperbolic statements.

Isn't Revan ALSO called the strongest of his time? Actual question.

And of coruse, you have a line driectly stating "Luke and Sidious were so strong, it was felt across the galaxy, and the Force Storm is the mightiest weapon of the Sith Lords
And somehow that's hyperbole?

There's nothing in either game giving Revan's power a definitive comparison to anyone else's.

It's more-so obsolete, considering it was written when both characters were considered to be the pinnacle of light and dark power. It was written before any mention of Sith that were more than 2000 years old, before any mention of ancient Jedi that could block someone from the force or make simple objects more powerful than a lightsaber, etc.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Wait a minute... are you saying Kun never MET any jedi masters? I really don't see how you got this response from Illustrious' statement.



Very recent? Wait a minute... are you talking about the Dark Side Sourcebook or the Dark Empire sourcebook? Five minutes ago you were using the latter...

Author(s) Michael Allen Horne
Editor(s)
Illustrator(s) Cam Kennedy
Publisher West End Games
Publish Date June 1993
Type Hardcover
ISBN 0874311942


I would call that pretty damn old actually. And TOTJ starts in the latter half of 1993, with The Sith Wars coming out in 1995 and Golden Age of the Sith Empire coming out in 1996. Therefore, TOTJ is neweer than the DE Sourcebook... For the obsolete roleplaying game.


3. But the OT sorucebook did nothing of the sort and the Dark Side sourcebook and Chronology have retconned TOTJ while the rest stands strong.

No, this is bullshit. Now you're arguing the Dark Side Sourcebook, which is a handbook for the WotC RPG, saying random statements in it overide TOTJ? Are you nuts? RPG canon is NOT canon at all!
Let's go over this AGAIN:

The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.


Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.



Proof that Palpatine has what Kun had? All of it after thousands of years? Proof that he used any of it? Mastered it? ANY PROOF AT ALL? Didn't think so. QED.



Golden Age isn't subject to Lightsnake's opinion, but the storytellers and Ragnos in-universe. Therefore, your observations are moot.

Oh, and QED.

1. He needed to double team one Jedi master when he was a ghost...considering he didn't meet any that he 'pwned'...

2. And the Dark Side sourcebook is newer than both, along with Complete Locations...unlike the DS sourcebook, TOTJ sourcebook contradicts standing information. And the New Essential Chronology threw a lot of stuff out the window and supported DE.

3. Except it si and there've been character profiles, power acknowledgments and solidified canon in the Chronolog. Prove the RPG sorucebook STORY MATERIAL-said to be EU canon- isn't valid. NOW. Because a lot of it from TOTJ was used as well in the continuity. Which way does it go? The Story info oft he sourcebooks is still QUITE VALID and ahs always been treated as such. This doesn't change ebcause Jnaus wants it to. Check out TFN, talk to Leland Chee. He even answers questions by citing answers to the sorucebooks! Point out evidence of loyalty in the Sith Empire? Garu and Tritos Nal in TOTJ Companion. Prophets of the dark Side surviving? DS Sourcebook. Grand Admirals? Sourcebooks. Numerous other things? Sourcebooks

4. Proof Kun took what Kun had? Complete locations: He went to Yavin and gathered up what Kun had left there before mastering the information provided. Kun hid it in Yavin and that's not a massive trove gthroughout the galaxy, that's in the bowels of an easily accesible temple. Numerous other sources state he mastered information from other places, from Ziost, to Dathomir, to Honoghr, to the Tetan worlds. Are you ever going to read the essay I posted?

Originally posted by IKC
There's nothing in either game giving Revan's power a definitive comparison to anyone else's.

It's more-so obsolete, considering it was written when both characters were considered to be the pinnacle of light and dark power. It was written before any mention of Sith that were more than 2000 years old, before any mention of ancient Jedi that could block someone from the force or make simple objects more powerful than a lightsaber, etc.

1. I'm pretty sure someone made that statement.

2.It's not obsolete? You know why? Because that ibnformation was supported in numerous areas: The recent Chronology, the recent guides and that passage I post was written VERY recently...in 2005. That's about...ten years after TOTJ was written.

Glad we agree on sometihng though, IKC....KOTOR's time frame was screwed up...it makes all the sacrifices just look...worthless. Where're Vima, Thon and Tott? Sylvar, Oss Willum and the like? It makes the massive crushing of the Mandalorians over Onderon worthless as well....all it took to stop Exar was for nothing

1) So not only do you call Vodo and Odan-Urr, not to mention Arca and Ood, worthless nothings, but now they don't qualify as Jedi Masters? Nevermind that Kun slapped around the two he killed like they were nothing.

2) Oh? Doesn't contradict anything? Is that why it only puts Sith history back 2000 years even though Kun existed 4000 years previously and the Golden Age was 5000 years ago? Right.

3) "Prove the RPG sorucebook STORY MATERIAL-said to be EU canon- isn't valid." Quit asking people to prove a negative. Said to be canon by whom?

4) Except that Palpatine... never uses what you claimed he stole. Nor is there any account given for the fact that Kun would defend his things from a two-bit Sith like Sidious.

Oh, I love how we conveniently forget that Palpatine, in his fear, isolated Dathomir from the rest of the galaxy. What a force god, afraid of a bunch of primitive force witches.

1. I was referring to when he was a spirit.

2. It doesn't! For the alst time, DE doesn't even mention the Ancient Emprie! Until the New Chronology, it was 25,000 years old, that was only JUST retconned.

3. Leland Chee?

4. No, but he masters the knowledge. It's stated he never got to use all he knew. Did Exar?

5. He feared them as an ARMY, not individuals...that was a precaution

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I was referring to when he was a spirit.


Can you please stop using double standarts. When it comes to fighting Sidious, Luke as he appears in DE is "an avatar of the lightside", has "the power of legions of Jedi" is a "lightsaber god" and so on. Yet...when Kun is fighting a more expirienced and more powerful Luke he's just "double teaming a Jedi Master".
It's also nice how you use the source that makes people look worse when something is contradicting. You keep on throwing "I, Jedi" at us to make Kun look weak. Now use your own standart work on Kun and it says that Kun controlled Kyp during the attack on Luke meaning that Kun just used Kyp's body doing all the work on his own. And even if he "double teamed" Luke as you like to put it - this was Kun without his amulets and his "partner" was a Padawan who had only some months of force training and even less training when it comes to using the Dark Side. So put it as you like but Kun either did seperate Luke from his body alone (according to I, Jedi) or he did the greatest part of the job (according to the JA trilogy) and there is nothing to argue about. Period.



I wonder how a "chronology" can retcon the actual sources since it deals with material coming from the sources and nothing else. Now let's have a look at the sources. Here is a picture of the Valley of the Dark Lords:

http://theforce.jaymach.com/images/DarkLordValley.jpg

As you can see you have 13 tombs displayed on that picture which doesn't contain the entire valley. Now inside one of the smaller tombs you can see you have more than one Sith Lord burried as you can see here:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/Korriban5.jpg

The same thing can be observed when Nadd and Kun visit Korriban later. And...talking about Kun visiting the Valley of the Dark Lords:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/Korriban1.jpg

Different place and again you can see graves on both side of that relative small valley which is not the same place we've seen in the first picture. So the direct evidence from the sources indicates that virtually hundrets of Sith Lords are burried on Korriban. And now I leave the choice to you: Either the Sith were a martial culture and martial enough to kill their recent Dark Lord so fast that none of them had reigned for more than 20 years which makes them quite powerful and makes Ragnos himself pretty uber as he ruled for more than a century - or you accept that the Ancient Sith Empire was around for more than 2,000 years, nearly 20,000 which would make Ragnos the most powerful person in nearly 1000 generations of force user and his direct followers - from which Kun learned (Sadow) - still quite powerful.



As you failed to provide some source for that statement over and over again it seems to be nonexistant. So unless you come up with some direct link or something else to prove it, you can throw it in again and again and nobody will believe you.



It stated about Exar that he archieved so much knowledge that he won't be able to use it all. But he - in contrary to Sidious - was able to kill force users and toss them arround like ragdolls and even as a 400 year old an half-mad spirit was a threat for Luke who - at this time - had already defeated DE Sidious.



And somehow Yoda when the Chu'unthor crashed on Dathomir was able to convinced the witches to let the Jedi leave the planet and watch over the knowledge stored on the ship. And it's nice how Sidious feared and "army" of force witches when just the "most powerful" of them were able to levitate a lightsaber. Makes your force god look especially great there.

Well, IKC and Nai beat me to it. Well said.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Can you please stop using double standarts. When it comes to fighting Sidious, Luke as he appears in DE is "an avatar of the lightside", has "the power of legions of Jedi" is a "lightsaber god" and so on. Yet...when Kun is fighting a more expirienced and more powerful Luke he's just "double teaming a Jedi Master".
It's also nice how you use the source that makes people look worse when something is contradicting. You keep on throwing "I, Jedi" at us to make Kun look weak. Now use your own standart work on Kun and it says that Kun controlled Kyp during the attack on Luke meaning that Kun just used Kyp's body doing all the work on his own. And even if he "double teamed" Luke as you like to put it - this was Kun without his amulets and his "partner" was a Padawan who had only some months of force training and even less training when it comes to using the Dark Side. So put it as you like but Kun either did seperate Luke from his body alone (according to I, Jedi) or he did the greatest part of the job (according to the JA trilogy) and there is nothing to argue about. Period.



I wonder how a "chronology" can retcon the actual sources since it deals with material coming from the sources and nothing else. Now let's have a look at the sources. Here is a picture of the Valley of the Dark Lords:

http://theforce.jaymach.com/images/DarkLordValley.jpg

As you can see you have 13 tombs displayed on that picture which doesn't contain the entire valley. Now inside one of the smaller tombs you can see you have more than one Sith Lord burried as you can see here:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/Korriban5.jpg

The same thing can be observed when Nadd and Kun visit Korriban later. And...talking about Kun visiting the Valley of the Dark Lords:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/Korriban1.jpg

Different place and again you can see graves on both side of that relative small valley which is not the same place we've seen in the first picture. So the direct evidence from the sources indicates that virtually hundrets of Sith Lords are burried on Korriban. And now I leave the choice to you: Either the Sith were a martial culture and martial enough to kill their recent Dark Lord so fast that none of them had reigned for more than 20 years which makes them quite powerful and makes Ragnos himself pretty uber as he ruled for more than a century - or you accept that the Ancient Sith Empire was around for more than 2,000 years, nearly 20,000 which would make Ragnos the most powerful person in nearly 1000 generations of force user and his direct followers - from which Kun learned (Sadow) - still quite powerful.




It stated about Exar that he archieved so much knowledge that he won't be able to use it all. But he - in contrary to Sidious - was able to kill force users and toss them arround like ragdolls and even as a 400 year old an half-mad spirit was a threat for Luke who - at this time - had already defeated DE Sidious.



And somehow Yoda when the Chu'unthor crashed on Dathomir was able to convinced the witches to let the Jedi leave the planet and watch over the knowledge stored on the ship. And it's nice how Sidious feared and "army" of force witches when just the "most powerful" of them were able to levitate a lightsaber. Makes your force god look especially great there.

1. No, I will not, because the text says that EXACTLY. It was also Kun surprising Luke, double teaming him and calling upon all the energy he had just gained. Kun'd been driven back by Luke before. Was Kyp not described as the strongest student? How is Kun more powerful or experienced? When he created storms and is even reerenced to as godlike...

2. We see Korriban again in the Republic comics, as well....are we shown the full view of the Valley there? What of KOTOR's valley of the Dark Lords? The Sith were wiped out almost instantly following TSW, when would they have time to build hundreds of tombs? And Ragnos lasting a hundred years was in all probability the longest ever. And the chronology retconned KOTOR's timeframe, that's undebateable. I have to accept nothing because no matter what logic is used, no matter what is argued, those dates will be 7,000 BBY to 5,000 BBY and are written down.

3. He asked where it was said, I gave it. Visit Leland's Blog or AKS HIM yourself on the QaA page I've supplied numerous times.

4. Notice Sidious never double teamed Luke or caught him off guard? And we've seen Palpatine throw powerful force users around like it was nothing. Hell, he blasts Brand away before instakilling Rayf-blows a hole through him- after besting Leia, compared to Nomi and Vima Sunrider earlier, and this in an inferior, dying clone. And let's not forget: Kun NEVER used that info considering he had his out of body experience....hours later at most? We know, according to complete locations, Palpatine claimed what Kun'd hidden in those temples and mastered them. It was directly stated Sidious mastered the force in all its forms.

5. We saw Gethzerion SLAUGHTER a legion of storm troopers with a rake of her finger. Moreover, according to Zsinj's bio, he was stationed over Dathomir and when the Nightsisters-who didn't exist by Yoda's time, only the witches did...Gethzerion created the Nightsisters- began to get edgy, he stranded them there and was lauded by Palpatine for quick thinking. It wasn't something Palpatine ordered since I doubt he knew what they were attempting. If he figured them any sort of threat-and this is, what, maybe a year or two after ROTS? He'd have had Dathomir bombed to slag.

The fact of the matter is that a mad, 4000 year old Kun who could barely talk any more and had no more corporeal form nearly separated Luke from his body. A Luke several years more experienced than his defeat of Sidious. That is an undeniable fact, it's on-panel (or on-page) evidence.

So because he didn't create storms or wasn't referenced as godlike (verbatim), he isn't powerful? Sidious didn't have his spirit come back and wreck havok in the academy. He never walked into a room of thousands of beings and freezed them all while he gave a nice little lecture. He never instakilled a thousand year old Jedi with a wave of his hand. Does that make him weaker?

According to you, it doesn't. So let go on the "he didn't produce a force storm" double-standard.



But the chronology still does not change the depicted images in TOTJ, it did not rule them invalid. Therefore all of those tombs clearly existed, which makes the number of Sith Lords rather vast.



You fail to give Kun credit for controlling Kyp, whom Luke says himself in I, Jedi that he did or choking the padawans. And notice how Nomi Sunrider and 7 other Jedi go and confront Ulic, not Exar in his life. Exar is also shown to blast holes through individuals that he never did in life. There's still no proof that Exar was in any way stronger than in life, he was a half-mad spirit that could barely talk.

And "the dark side," "sith alchemy," and "sith magic" are all stated as different terminologies. Notice how only one of them fall into the category that Sidious "masters." The fact of the matter is that the term is very vague and Sidious has not demonstrated many force powers that would have been extremely useful and fall under those categories.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. No, I will not, because the text says that EXACTLY. It was also Kun surprising Luke, double teaming him and calling upon all the energy he had just gained. Kun'd been driven back by Luke before. Was Kyp not described as the strongest student? How is Kun more powerful or experienced? When he created storms and is even reerenced to as godlike...

Oh. Kun has been driven back by Luke before ? Where exactly ? Luke has only seen Kun in his dreams before the little "indicent". Kun manipulated Kyp right under Luke's nose, knocked of Dorskk 81 when he was together with Kyp and Kun wanted to talk to Kyp alone. Gantoris ended as an Jedi equivalent of toast when trying to confront Kun and then Kun seperated Luke spirit from Luke's body (either by controlling Kyp or by a little help of Kyp).

When have we seen Sidious blasting holes into massive walls and monsters created with Sith alchemy, kill force spirits, freeze the entire Senate, kill Jedi masters with a hand movement, toss Jedi arround like ragdolls, seperate Luke's spirit from his body, force choke 10 people at once, controlling other force users and so on ? We didn't ? So how is Sidious more powerful than Kun ? Because of a single ability (force storm) or because of the fact that we never saw him taking on a force user sucessfully using nothing but the force prior to DE ?



Did you just want to argue for me ? Yeah...the Sith had no time to built that tombs after the Great Hyperspace War. That's why they built all of them before the Great Hyperspace War. Ups. And where did the NEC get the info from ? There is no source stating that the Ancient Sith Empire only existed for 2000 years - their are other sources stating it had existed for almost 20000 years and this is supported by the stuff we have seen in any source so far that deals with Korriban. And since the valley seems to be quite huge we might actually have never seen more than a small part of it. Again...you are just arguing for me.



No. You just gave a link to a more than 90 page long thread and failed to provide a direct link. And I don't have to do anything since you want to prove something and not me and I have the complete evidence from the actual sources bolstering my suggestions when you only have a Chronology and a statement that you seem to have just make up.



Notice how Kun didn't do that either. Luke had his lightsaber in hand and was prepared for an attack. Surprise ? And Kun either controlled Kyp or he was doing the greater part of the job suggesting that Kyp was just trained for months (in the force) and weaks (in the Dark Side) and so he was clearly not able to do anything dangerous to Luke.



Inferior dying clone > 4000 year old half-mad spirit who is only a shade of his former self.



Blah, blah and blah again. Kun states that the present of strong force users was waking him. So Sidious was a nobody in terms of force powers ? And he would have allowed Tarkin to blow Yavin 4 up if he did know that there was massive Sith knowledge stored ? And of course he did know about the place because the Jedi never mentioned it, it was outside of Republic space. And it's nice how he should have plundered all Kun had stored there but failed to use anything of it when needed.



"Oh. I consider an army of people a thread when only the most powerful of them are able to levitate a lightsaber. And because I'm the avatar of the Dark Side and have an entire fleet of ships able to destroy the entire life on a planet not to mention a vast amount of superweapons I have to seperate them from the Republic instead of destroying them or make them servants."

Minor point here:

According to your Chronology, Lightsnake, Darth Bane used a Force storm on Ruusan. There goes the feat that puts Sidious head and shoulders above everyone else.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Minor point here:

According to your Chronology, Lightsnake, Darth Bane used a Force storm on Ruusan. There goes the feat that puts Sidious head and shoulders above everyone else.

A chronology does not create canon. It can not override the established canon in various C-level sources. If a newer comic states the Sith Empire existed for only 2000 years, then yes, it has been retconned.

Bah. I said that because Lightsnake believes the Force storm ability puts Sidious way up there. I personally have no regard for the Chronology.

Originally posted by IKC
Since those idiots at Bioware put KOTOR only 40 years past the Sith War, that's very strong evidence that he's above Revan.

I'm a bit loathe to call Bioware idiots when they're responsible for the greatest Star Wars game ever... but yeah, I didn't like the placement on the timeline.

I DID like the modernisation of the technology (the civilisation is 20,000 years old - why would everything look so ridiculously archiac?) and I loved the *feel*, since it took the best aspects of the prequels and the rest was like OT Star Wars...

I think we can agree that Revan is the strongest of his generation - and during his adventures, he's the strongest *living* Force user around.

I don't think that there is *conclusive* evidence that points to Exar Kun being greater than him (just as there isn't any conclusive evidence that suggests Revan is greater than Kun) but I'm aware that I'm in the minority.

Come to think of it - since the Ancient Sith Empire has actually *survived* - does this mean that Kun was actually being used as a pawn by said Empire? I'm not casting doubt on his levels of power, but it makes you think.

In your opinion. I liked the original Jedi Knight.



I didn't. The "feel" of TOTJ was much better than the ridiculously shiny KOTOR. I don't like it when almost everything looks like the PT.



According to Kreia anyway, and he was maybe the strongest out of a crippled order that had lost at least twenty or more ancient Jedi Masters along with Ossus all at once 40 years earlier.



Yes there is. Revan's the best out of a crippled order with a smaller knowledge base and younger, perhaps less powerful masters. Exar Kun toyed with and beat the hell out of the truly ancient masters of his time. Arguably, Exar gathered more Force knowledge, including Sith Magic, than Revan.



According to Kreia. I have my doubts. And how is it you think the Dark Lord of the Sith can be used as a pawn by the Sith when he was crowned by Ragnos himself? This is idle speculation. I could more easily assert that pre-KOTOR Revan was turned to the Dark Side and made a pawn.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. Kun has been driven back by Luke before ? Where exactly ? Luke has only seen Kun in his dreams before the little "indicent". Kun manipulated Kyp right under Luke's nose, knocked of Dorskk 81 when he was together with Kyp and Kun wanted to talk to Kyp alone. Gantoris ended as an Jedi equivalent of toast when trying to confront Kun and then Kun seperated Luke spirit from Luke's body (either by controlling Kyp or by a little help of Kyp).

When have we seen Sidious blasting holes into massive walls and monsters created with Sith alchemy, kill force spirits, freeze the entire Senate, kill Jedi masters with a hand movement, toss Jedi arround like ragdolls, seperate Luke's spirit from his body, force choke 10 people at once, controlling other force users and so on ? We didn't ? So how is Sidious more powerful than Kun ? Because of a single ability (force storm) or because of the fact that we never saw him taking on a force user sucessfully using nothing but the force prior to DE ?



Did you just want to argue for me ? Yeah...the Sith had no time to built that tombs after the Great Hyperspace War. That's why they built all of them before the Great Hyperspace War. Ups. And where did the NEC get the info from ? There is no source stating that the Ancient Sith Empire only existed for 2000 years - their are other sources stating it had existed for almost 20000 years and this is supported by the stuff we have seen in any source so far that deals with Korriban. And since the valley seems to be quite huge we might actually have never seen more than a small part of it. Again...you are just arguing for me.



No. You just gave a link to a more than 90 page long thread and failed to provide a direct link. And I don't have to do anything since you want to prove something and not me and I have the complete evidence from the actual sources bolstering my suggestions when you only have a Chronology and a statement that you seem to have just make up.



Notice how Kun didn't do that either. Luke had his lightsaber in hand and was prepared for an attack. Surprise ? And Kun either controlled Kyp or he was doing the greater part of the job suggesting that Kyp was just trained for months (in the force) and weaks (in the Dark Side) and so he was clearly not able to do anything dangerous to Luke.



Inferior dying clone > 4000 year old half-mad spirit who is only a shade of his former self.



Blah, blah and blah again. Kun states that the present of strong force users was waking him. So Sidious was a nobody in terms of force powers ? And he would have allowed Tarkin to blow Yavin 4 up if he did know that there was massive Sith knowledge stored ? And of course he did know about the place because the Jedi never mentioned it, it was outside of Republic space. And it's nice how he should have plundered all Kun had stored there but failed to use anything of it when needed.



"Oh. I consider an army of people a thread when only the most powerful of them are able to levitate a lightsaber. And because I'm the avatar of the Dark Side and have an entire fleet of ships able to destroy the entire life on a planet not to mention a vast amount of superweapons I have to seperate them from the Republic instead of destroying them or make them servants."

1. When Luke drove him off in dreams? KEep in mind I'm operating from word of mouth here, but I believe Luke drove off Exar in his dreams.

2. He's.....created monsters with Sith alchemy, paralyzed numerous citizens on Korriban-nearly everyone in the imperial center, torn down temples-and ships, killed powerful Jedi without the slightest exertion-he's a master of Morichiro, after all, control force users....you're focusing on Force Storm and ignoring his other credentials...even so, Force Storm ALONE should be enough as its described as the mightiest weapon of the Sith and he destroyed a fleet with it...

3. So ASK HIM....type in a post and ask if sourcebook info can be valid, because info from them has been used before...hell, TOTJ companion was the only thing that gave rise to this 25,000 years stuff. And wait, can't stuff be retconned? Doesn't the newer stuff come first?

4. When you have Kun as your teacher and combining his power with yours when the guy you're facing has just seen a thought dead dark lord appear when he has no idea how to face force ghosts....and you've yet to provide any proof of how Kun's spirit was weaker after I, Jedi supports the diea he had far more power to focus on...and he could affect the physical world, he's the only force ghost on record to do that, minus Sidious and Ragnos. and notice Sidious was ONE force user and a Sith at that....if anything, he'd just laugh at Kun and leave. And when did he fail to sue anything? He already mastered all of the knowledge it gave him. What is ambiguous of 'mastered the force in all its forms?'

5. Oh, yes, make them servants when their entire culture revolves around male enslavement...and considering they can kill massive squadrons of soldiers without exertion...And Palpatine's a sadistic bastard. He liked the idea of gethzerion stranded much more than her dead...he just sent a message telling Zsinj to 'deal with the situation' and liked the outcome.


OH, and on Bane's force storm: That was the combined power of Bane along with Kaan, Kopecz, Githany and the other....ten or so dark lords combining

If this is after the Star Forge and when Revan leaves for the uncharted regions of space, then I would have to pick Revan.

He defeated Malk who was being amplified by the power of many other Jedi, combined with the power of the Star Forge which amplified his already significant force ability.

After leaving for the unkown regions of space, Revan recovered his memory of the time he was the Dark lord.

I would place my bets on Revan, but it would be a narrow victory, and Revan would shortly die after the injuries sustained in the fight.

That's a joke. You think Revan, a force user who came from a crippled Jedi Order that had lost many ancient masters and the entire knowledge base of Ossus just fourty years earlier, can beat Exar Kun, described as the "most formidable student" of 600-year-old Vodo-Siosk Baas and the most powerful force user of the time by the (Yes, sourcebooks are questionable but this is confirmed with on-panel evidence) TOTJ Sourcebook.

This is not to mention that your basis for saying this is that he defeated... Malak. A "Sith" who could make his lightsaber big, nevermind that Kun invented the ability (he teaches it to Gantoris as a mad, 4000 year old spirit).

Revan comes from a greatly-reduced knowledge base and there's no evidence that he learned a fraction of the Dark Side techniques that Kun knew. Even without amulets Kun, the real Dark Lord of the Sith, will take this.

Hmm Revan is described as a great scholar who learned everything that he could from the Jedi and the Sith.

He did plunder Korriban himself and he had his students plunder other parts of the planet. He had Tulak Hord his holocron Ajunta Pall his blade, killed the spirit of Pall and managed to regain his memorry's, even though that was described as impossible by the Jedi Council and Bastila. Every said he could never relearn what he had been taught and yet all of a sudden only 6 months after the events of the Star Forge Revan has his memorry back.

Also don't forget Malachor, a planet sized Sith library that Revan had access too... Revan learned a lot, he won't beat Kun in a fight probably, but Revan has learned a lot more then you think.

Yes, but then compare this to what Kun learned.

Sure, Revan learned what he could from the Jedi... and what could this be, exactly? They lost a huge trove of knowledge when Ossus was destroyed, and they lost much of the keepers of said knowledge to Exar Kun's assassinations. Kun was trained when all of this was available, meaning it's more likely that Kun learned more than Revan did.

Similarly, with the Sith, Kun reached Korriban before Revan was even born. He had scrolls from Nadd's tomb, along with practically everything Sadow ever wrote on Yavin 4, not to mention Sadow's equipment. It was all described as "more wealth and knowledge than (Kun) could ever use."

Revan learned much, but not as much as Exar Kun.

Exar may or may not have more knowledge than Revan. But Revan knows how to put the knowledge he gained (from Korriban/Malachor/deep scary outer regions of the galaxy that no one would dare to go) to good use.

The reason I say this is because while Exar Kun has ambition, Revan seems far more intelligent. He would essentially master ancient sith secrets and lightsaber forms faster than old Exar.

But it would be a close fight though....

To claim that Revan is more intelligent than Exar begs for proof. Your other claims (that Revan puts knowledge to good use, thereby implying that Exar doesn't and that he'd master the Sith teachings and lightsaber forms faster than Kun) also beg for proof.

Got any? Or is it just speculative nonsense?

There was six months in between the events of Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War, during which Exar Kun reached close to the pinnacle of his personal strength whereas before he only stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma in a lightsaber fight.

This shows that Exar Kun, too, is a prodigy. Freedon Nadd described him as having "ambition without limit."

This is not to mention that Exar Kun is not... "old" as you put it. He's late twenties at the most at the end of the Sith War.

Exar Kun had access to more knowledge and arguably far better knowledge. He's going to tool Revan in this fight.

Not pure speculation at all

Revan was a tactical genius, we can all agree on that. He outwitted Mandalore and the Republic. Canderous stated that it was only by the efforts of the Jedi Revan that the Mandalorian Wars sided to the Republic's favour.

Revan mastered vast amounts of Sith techniques in a very short time period (5-6 months, maybe even less), he was talented in multiple combat arts (I assume he defeated Yusanis in vibroblade or hand to hand combat and same deal with Mandalore). If he can pick up all these things in such short time periods, then he's probably a genius. He designed the high performance HK-47 assassin model (all you KOTOR players know how good this homocidal droid is ), which requires a significant amount of knowledge in engineering and mathematics.

If thats not enough, he possessed adequate amount of foresight and skill to win battles where major enemy spaceships would still remain functional. I of course refer to the battle against the Republic, when he was Darth Revan.

Tactical genius? Perhaps, but how is this going to help him in a fight? So if I have a medical doctorate, I'm suddenly smarter than a nuclear physicist?



Okay. Prove up. What did he learn and where does it say he learned it in 5-6 months?



Exar Kun isn't? Okay, two non-force users. Ulic beat Mandalore armed with a dagger-like weapon. Exar Kun pwned a 600 year old Jedi Master, his former teacher, with his lightsaber.



I think you missed where I posted that Kun improved himself greatly in the span of six months. And I need you to prove that Revan did it in a short time.



And Kun operated Naga Sadow's alchemical equipment to turn Massassi into "beasts of war, malformed servants of death."

His first subject was Massassi priest Zythmnr.



This is relevant to a one-on-one fight how? Grand Admiral Thrawn was arguably a better military leader. Can he tool Revan?

The purpose of my post was to show how Revan is a fast learner and intelligent Jedi Knight/Sith, moreso than Exar.

He studied from Tulak Hord's holocron, I believe Kreia states that. Studying from what was once the greatest lightsabre duelist ever known in the entire galaxy proves that Revan is not only an excellent learner, but a master duelist. He has mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat, surpassed Kreia in his knowledge of force forms, defeated legions of dark jedi empowered by the dark side energies of the ancient Star Forge, and defeated an empowered Malak in lightsabre combat. These demonstrate his strenght moreso than his intellect, but you seem to be bringing in arguments on Exar's battle prowess.

Considering all the other evidence supportive of Revan's intellect, it would only be natural to assume that he was more intelligent than Exar. Being a military genius and expert engineer means you must have a quick mind able to process things at a faster rate. Exar used alchemy, but it goes hand in hand with all the darkside knowledge he obtained. Revan's engineering of the HK-47 model shows that he is the more multi talented, notwithstanding the equal or greater rate he comprehended Sith secrets from Korriban and Malachor.

Thats why I think Revan would have been able to understand the Sith techniques faster, and put them to better use, hence defeating Exar.

Keep in mind all this does NOT include Revan's journey to defeat the ancient Sith Empire, which undoubtedly made him even stronger.

By saying all this I am not downplaying Exar, I just think by the Star Forge's end and beyond, Revan slightly outpowers Exar.

Tulak may indeed have been the greatest, but we only have Kreia's word to go on this. This is as opposed to Exar Kun who crafted not only a unique style but a unique weapon to use it with.



Proof? How in God's name would he have mastered Vaapad, which hadn't yet existed and wouldn't for 4000 years?

Unsubstantiated.



Force forms? You realize, of course, that those are a game mechanic right? And even so, you need to offer proof of this. I'm not going to believe it just because you say it.



Did Kyle Katarn defeat "legions" of dark jedi empowered by the Valley of the Jedi and Desann/Tavion's schemes? Or was that just gameplay meant to make the game exciting and only the highlight kills (Malak, etc) really count in canon?



I'll put those at the bottom.



No, it isn't. In fact we have just the opposite. I've not played the game in some time, but didn't five years pass between the Mandalorian Wars and KOTOR I? Exar nearly achieved the zenith of his power (or so we can tell, it's probable he'd have gotten stronger if not defeated) in six months. This includes his lightsaber modifications and invention of his unique combat style.



And of course these abilities are mutually exclusive to Revan.



"Well yes, my vastly superior opponent used an amazing process that hadn't been used since the Golden Age of the Sith, but.... well it's irrelevant!"

You realize that Nadd wanted him to use alchemy to create a new body for him? This is in no way a mere Dark Side techinque. It changes and creates the shapes of living things.



Exar Kun's ability to change Zythmnr shows him the more multi-talented. I'll take a hulking Massassi who can go hand-to-hand with a Jedi over HK-47 any day.



You haven't proven up (and you conveniently dismiss the fact that Exar Kun had already been to Korriban and that Yavin IV contains practically everything Sadow and his followers ever wrote down). I'll ask again:





Unproven and unsubstantiated.



If he even went to do that at all, assuming Kreia's not full of shit. This is idle speculation.

Exar's battle prowess:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3084/kunvsvodo11th.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3310/kunvsvodo20mk.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4569/kunvsvodo38ja.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7900/kunvsvodo47ob.th.jpg
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/7934/kunleavesthesenate1me.th.jpg

Exar Kun can and will pwn Revan, easily.

On the first note, why would Kreia lie about Tulak Hord being the best lightsabre duelist? It serves in no way to further her plans, if anything it would only discredit her skills.

Secondly Juyo was around a while before Vaapad. I was referring to Juyo when I said he mastered all seven forms of lightsabre combat.

Unsubstantiated? How?

Tulak Hord was the greatest lightsabre duelist. Revan learned from Tulak and became a better duelist. Its called extrapolation man. If Tulak is the greatest lightsabre duelist ever known, then he would have surely mastered all seven lightsabre forms. Revan studied from Tulak's holocron, hence he learned and mastered all seven lightsabre forms.

Secondly if you talk to Kreia and gain enough influence she goes on to praise Revan and admitting that he is the more power Jedi/Sith among the two. Considering Kreia was a high level Consular/Sith Lord she would have been a master of the force forms. Extrapolate again. If Kreia believed Revan to be her superior, don't you think Revan would have possessed a far greater knowledge of force forms?

Your third point, the dark Jedi in Outcast were trained by a newbie dino sith who is frankly, in all sincerity, a complete and total incompetent. How could Katarn's fight against these weak sith living in the new order compare with the competent sith of KOTOR, trained by one of the strongest Sith Lord's? Revan's feats were impressive to say the least, admit it.

Fourth point, Revan searched for the STAR MAPS in the five years. That has no bearing on how fast he learned the sith secrets, just how obscure the location of the Star Maps were.

Fifth point, those qualities are not exclusive to Revan, but it is something that Exar is not exactly proficient with to say the least. Revan demonstrates his superior intellect in these fields, something Exar could not claim.

Your point on the Massassi is purely subjective. Hk-47 has on many occasions defeated dark Jedi in combat with just a vibro blade. I would prefer to have my assassin droid over a bunch of "meatbags"

Your comics on Exar Kun are purely for aesthetics, a vein attempt at inspiring me out of promoting Revan. Rest assured that I found them quite enjoyable though :P. If I could send movies on my rampage through the star forge, and voice clips from Kreia, I would.

1) I didn't say she was a liar, I was pointing out that she was a single source that is certainly not infallible.

2) One cannot master that which is not complete. It is ergo impossible for someone to "master" Juyo. It was not complete.

3) Because you've offered no conclusive proof and you're discounting every point I make as to Kun's innate superiority.

4) Was said to be the greatest lightsaber duelist and this is questionable since, as we see in Tales of the Jedi, the ancient Sith did not use lightsabers.

This is not to mention that you're basing the argument on conjecture: it is not true that the "greatest" lightsaber duelist would have mastered all seven forms (something which is impossible). They could simply be so proficient in their chosen form as to be superior to all other lightsaber users.

Not to mention that you claim that since Revan studied his holocron then he must have learned everything Tulak had to offer. This is nonsense. It's unverifiable speculation.

5) You're again arguing force forms, a game mechanic meant to take the place of lightsaber forms for the more force-based "class" in a video game. And if she doesn't say he knew them better than she did, then you cannot assume that he does, especially since one person cannot do unquestionably everything better than another person.

6) You missed the point, which was that all the dark jedi encounters were for gameplay and were not canon. Yes, it is canon that Katarn, Revan, etc. faced down dark Jedi but they were not in the number portrayed in their respective games. Such would be ridiculous.

7) Prove up that he was just searching for the Star Maps. You need evidence, not conjecture.

8) Absence of proof is not proof of absence. You don't know how good Exar Kun would be as a battle commander or droid designer, ergo you cannot assume that Revan is superior. But it is fact that Revan did not have access to Sadow's alchemical equipment or notes, ergo he could not create creatures as Kun did.

9) Purely subjective?

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/828/sylvarpwned2jo.th.jpg

Is that why this exists? He went hand-to-hand with a pissed-off Jedi and won. That's one damned good monster Kun had.



And...where is this stated? That still makes the unarmed Massassi better.

10) You called them... my comics on Exar Kun? Do I need to scan the covers for you? It doesn't get a whole lot more EU official than Tales of the Jedi. Unless you're about to accuse me of drawing those myself, I'd consider rephrasing.

And I'll state again: Gameplay, other than dialogue, movies, highlight battles, etc is not necessarily canon. Variables such as how many Dark Jedi you killed, whether Atton got knocked out in battle X, etc. are irrelevant to this versus fight.



Last paragraph is important.

Originally posted by zephiel7
The purpose of my post was to show how Revan is a fast learner and intelligent Jedi Knight/Sith, moreso than Exar.

He studied from Tulak Hord's holocron, I believe Kreia states that. Studying from what was once the greatest lightsabre duelist ever known in the entire galaxy proves that Revan is not only an excellent learner, but a master duelist. He has mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat, surpassed Kreia in his knowledge of force forms, defeated legions of dark jedi empowered by the dark side energies of the ancient Star Forge, and defeated an empowered Malak in lightsabre combat. These demonstrate his strenght moreso than his intellect, but you seem to be bringing in arguments on Exar's battle prowess.

Considering all the other evidence supportive of Revan's intellect, it would only be natural to assume that he was more intelligent than Exar. Being a military genius and expert engineer means you must have a quick mind able to process things at a faster rate. Exar used alchemy, but it goes hand in hand with all the darkside knowledge he obtained. Revan's engineering of the HK-47 model shows that he is the more multi talented, notwithstanding the equal or greater rate he comprehended Sith secrets from Korriban and Malachor.

Thats why I think Revan would have been able to understand the Sith techniques faster, and put them to better use, hence defeating Exar.

Keep in mind all this does NOT include Revan's journey to defeat the ancient Sith Empire, which undoubtedly made him even stronger.

By saying all this I am not downplaying Exar, I just think by the Star Forge's end and beyond, Revan slightly outpowers Exar.
That would explain why Exar Kun was approached by the spirit of Ragnos, when Revan wasn't. Revan was able to learn faster and better, you say? HAH, Exar Kun Learned from the spirit of MANY great ancient sith. Please tell me how Revan is a better learner, instead of just stating that he is.

Originally posted by calvin44
That would explain why Exar Kun was approached by the spirit of Ragnos, when Revan wasn't. Revan was able to learn faster and better, you say? HAH, Exar Kun Learned from the spirit of MANY great ancient sith. Please tell me how Revan is a better learner, instead of just stating that he is.

So what if Exar Kun was approached by the spirit of Ragnos? Revan was destined to return to the light, why would a Sith lord approach him then? He was essentially a "Vader" of his time, he saw the darkness for what it was worth and turned back to the light. Revan may not been approached by ancient spectres (he was though, by the spirit of Adjunta Pall) or retained his title as dark lord of the Sith, but he survived unlike Exar and grew to undeniable heights of power.

Maybe in KOTOR 3 we can see just how much more powerful Revan has grown in comparison to Exar? :P

When KOTOR 3 comes out and you have some serious canonical evidence, then we'll see. As it stands, Kun pwns Revan.

I do have canonical evidence friend, read the above posts. Also the polls would seem to say otherwise.

The fact of the matter is that it's irrelevant. It hardly matters if she is correct or not, particularly since the ancient Sith did not wield lightsabers, individuals like Naga or Marka or Ludo used sith swords.

And even if he did, it does not reflect on Revan's lightsaber prowess. Yoda uses ataru, he likely had students that learned and mastered that technique. Qui-Gon learned and mastered Ataru, but he did not do it to anywhere near the degree Yoda did.



Where is this stated in KotOR (II)? I've played through them more than once, and I don't recall where it says Revan mastered Form VII.



You're asking us to prove a negative? No. You have to prove the positive.



Kreia said he was the best lightsaber duelist. Dooku was arguably the best lightsaber duelist of the PT era, he used Makashi.

You could just be overwhelmingly proficient in one kind. Kun, for example, didn't master all the forms, but he easily beat up anyone he fought with his unique lightsaber form.



Yes, but Obi-Wan may not be better at reading, listening, talking, eating, farting, or sleeping, for example. Notice how he said every aspect. Unless that's established, it's not conclusive, ergo not admissable.



Yes, and it's canon that Kyle Katarn went to the Valley of the Jedi, that he went to Galak Fyar's ship, that he went to Korriban.

It is purely gameplay though to assume he actually killed anyone, as that was never elaborated in storyline. You can not make the assumption that it's there, therefore he killed them.



So he spent 5 years doing absolutely nothing but search for the star maps? Where was this?



WTF kind of comparison is this? First off, he stated it was ABSENCE of proof is not PROOF of absence. Ergo, you can't argue whether it did or didn't exist solely because of lack of evidence. Absense of proof is simply that, absence -- it's inconclusive, you can not draw a conclusion about it. Assuming Revan received more knowledge than Exar is a conclusion.

Also; One is event-based, one is ability-based. It's not unreasonable to assume that Exar can take a crap, even though he is not shown to do so. It is unreasonable to assume (without any evidence to suggest of it) that Revan hung out with Ancient Sith spirits.



His point is that Sith Alchemy > tinkering with tools. By that logic, 10 year old Anakin is superior to Exar Kun.

Thank you, Illustrious.

The final point: Gameplay is not canon, only the storyline of the game is.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Revan then mastered what was known of the Juyo style.


Where do you get that from ? Notice how lightsaber styles aren't even part of KotoR 1...



First: A theoretical mastery of all forms can only be archieved over centuries. The only beings that possibly mastered all forms in the SW universe are Yoda and Vodo. Even Mace Windu, who was a lightsaber prodigy, didn't master all forms.
Second: You should listen to Kreia. She states that Tulak Hord had used his own style and left the knowledge of that style in a Holocron (which is lost now). So "in the light of the situation" it makes more sense that Tulak designed his own style and this was so uber that virtually noone could beat him.



Is Bastilla better than every Jedi in the KotoR era because she was the best when it came to using battle meditation ? Was Obi-Wan a greater force user / lightsaber duellist in TPM than Qui-Gon because Obi-Wan did survive Maul and Qui-Gon didn't ?



No. That are game events. "Canon" would be that he faced Darth Malak on the Star Forge and won the fight. Everything else...well...did YOU destroy all droids ALONE or were your 2 friends doing it / helping ? See...the same way: In KotoR II if you have enough stealth skill you can run through the entire academy without killing one opponent except Sion and Kreia. So the "canon" events are limited to "the Exile defeated Sion and Kreia" and not "the Exile defeated an entire academy filled with Dark Side users".



Oh yes ? So it took him 5 years to do something which he managed to do again in weeks later ? In fact there is just 1 year between the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War in which Revan had time to discover the maps and maximum 3 years added until the end of that war (the events shown in KotoR I).



It's quite easy. Kun:
- learned from one of the most powerful Jedi (Vodo) at his time and was descriped as Vodo's best student (so the best of 600 years)
- took knowledge from Korriban before Revan was there
- took knowledge from Nadd's tomb which Revan did never visit
- took knowledge from what Sadow left on Yavin 4, including Sadow's amulets while Revan never visited Yavin 4
- took knowledge from Ossus which was destroyed shortly after that

Revan:
- hasn't visited the tombs of Ragnos, Sadow, Ajunta Pall and Tulak Hord before KotoR as we have seen
- was on Korriban after Kun took knowledge away
- took some knowledge from Malachor V
- took some knowledge from the Dantooine Archieves (not compareable to Ossus)
- possibly had access to Tulak Hords holocron

So as you can see, Kun had by far the greater knowledge base to learn from and - assuming that Revan plundered Malachor V before he let it be destroyed - less time to study it but he has learned basically anything to learn from it.



We have seen HK-47 do nothing. I never put him in my group and so he never killed anybody except some "meatbags". Notice how it doesn't say "I killed pissed off Jedi meatbags".



Entering the Star Forge is "canon", how many people / droids he fought there is not. I can say that Obi-Wan killed 10,000 Stormtroopers on the Death Star in ANH (we just haven't seen it on screen) and it won't be contradicted by EU material. Does that mean that he did ? No...

LMFAO

Pwnt!

http://users.tpg.com.au/larks74/PWNED.JPG

Old Exar? We know the age of Exar Kun, Revan could be basically an 100 year-old man, inside a cool suit.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I do have canonical evidence friend, read the above posts. Also the polls would seem to say otherwise.

Canonical? Where? If you do have any, you sure haven't posted it. Also, polls don't really mean anything, but even those aren't in Revan's favor.

What has Revan done? Really, quite little canonically, acually. He defated Malak, Bandon, Nord, and....oh yes, that little Sith Govenor on Taris. That's just about it.

And learning from a holocron is nothing next to learning from the actual person. Notice that Kreia calls ALL Masters since Tulak children playing with toys. It more or less screws over your argument in that area as Revan is included in the children's area.

WTF? Are you hearing yourself?

"Revan could have" or "Revan might have." That's called BULLSHIT. Don't bother me with what he coulda, shoulda, woulda. Argue what he did. He did learn the Holocron, it was a holocron that DID NOT contain Sith Sword techniques, ergo the weight of Tulak being "the best lightsaber duelist of the Ancient Sith" decreases.

Nowhere was it stated Tulak knows all seven forms, or that Revan knew all seven. Assuming he does is making every positive assumption for your character. When you do that, you = fanboy.



WTF? Did you not read what I said? Since when does learning from someone make you the best duelist?

Yoda was the best duelist in the PT era, but that doesn't mean that everyone that learned from him also happened to contend for that title, did he?

How the hell did you draw that false conclusion?



And I'll point out that you did not answer this question. Form VII is not even given mention in KotOR storyline.



It's not about what you believe or not.

Canon policy does not change. You can't say "well I believe Revan is god, therefore he is." Canon never says he mastered all seven forms, or that he was the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time.

It never mentions it. Assuming he does is ridiculous. Should I assume Coleman Trebor is the best because it never remarks about his lightsaber skills?



Again. Tell me how learning from someone makes you instantly better than them? Show me where she demonstrates this?

Also, mind you, she said (quote unquote) " was the best lightsaber duelist of the Ancient Sith." Exar Kun =/= Ancient Sith, k? Thanks. And again, you simply have Kreia's word for it, instead of anything that's concrete in the first place.

So basically you have something insubstantial + inconclusive interpretation. That's not proof. You need to prove up.



Yes, judging by how he beat him, yes.

Your point? Exar was the superior out of him and Ulic, and they had to send 8 of the top Jedi to capture him.



It does not state he spent this time solely in the endeavor of capturing the star map, and even if it did, it's hardly relevant material for proving that Revan is intellectually superior to Exar Kun.



Since when? If anything, Exar gets props for bossing around a rare prodigy in Ulic. I don't see how he was simply relegated to being a brute. If anything, that impression comes from the fact that he is so strong, not that he's dumb.

And again, your evidence of proving Revan's intelligence > Exar's intelligence is nil. Learn to prove up or go home.



He was approached by Ajunta Pall? Does trying to jack his sword have anything to do with that?

Aleema and Satal were approached by Freedon Nadd, does that mean they are super sensitive and uber? Does that mean they were approached by other Sith Spirits?

Don't be ridiculous. Show me where the other sith spirits approached Revan or don't bother.



Wait wait, wtf is this?

First you argue that sith lords may have bothered to approach him en masse. But just in case I shoot that down (which I did), you give him a backup plan just in case where you argue the opposite? Stop being a Revan apologist.



He also built a podracer from spare parts. It's not like Anakin had a lot of resources either.



Which is still outdone by a Massassi that levels a pissed off Jedi with his bare hands. And not to mention that Kun had an ARMY of Massassi.



When you offer no logical reasoning and proof? Please. We're supposed to give in to what now? Fanboy persuasion? Zephiel7's undying charisma? Revan's attractiveness as a female model? What now? You're the one being ridiculous. I ask for you to prove up, you don't. Hell, I ask for you to prove a point, and you even given a contradicting explanation.



Show me the transcript that states this. It does not state it. Hell, it does not state anything about the forms Revan learned. It states nothing until KotOR II when Traya says Revan learned from Tulak's holocron.



Right... is that why you've failed to prove that Revan mastered the holocron to anywhere near the effectiveness of Tulak Hord? Can you even prove that Tulak Hord is definitively the best duelist in the galaxy? Oops, guess not.

The "ancient Sith" didn't use lightsabers. After Naga Sadow, the Ancient Sith were "hunted the brink of extinction." So wait? Is Tulak Hord the greatest of his 3 person order or something?



Which "force forms"? When did Revan ever demonstrate battle meditation, for example?



And this proves that Revan destroyed all the Dark Jedi how?

Canonically, he beat Malak. That's it. Prove up or shut up.



How is time period irrelevant? You were just attempting to use it to argue that Revan was more intelligent than Exar.



Did not notice the part where he mentions "before KotoR"? Oops. Reading comprehension my friend.



Where does Revan have that advantage? PROVE IT. You can't. We can easily prove where Kun has demonstrated force mastery.



And how does one anecdotal case from 4000 years later have anything to do with proving jack shit for Revan? Oh wait... it doesn't.

cont...

cont...



First off, how is HK-47 going to sway the fight in Revan's favor? Second off, how can you prove that HK-47 was more effective than an army of Massassi, which among them, one of them leveled a Jedi? How can you prove that it takes more brainpower? Again, you can not. You have no proof, you are just making assumptions based on inconclusive "evidence" that is suspect to begin with. Sorry, as much as your life would be incomplete without Revan winning, he's not beating Exar.



Kreia never states, "well zOMG, Revan beat all the Dark Jedi!" He mentioned he would slay Jedi. Yes, he did slay Jedi. Never did it mention that he would slay "armies of Jedi." That quote could easily refer to 2 people.

And man, crowning yourself the victor of an argument after a fallacy-laden post is never a good thing to do. You've been 86'd, QED.

What canonical evidence? Kreia? The person who proclaimed Revan was the best, and the subsequently goes and brags about the Exile? The woman who never saw Tulak Hord duel OR has his holocron?

That's less canonical than Vodo saying Kun was his best student, and he has 600 years to back it up.

And using appeal to majority logical fallacy? Typical for someone who can type up an argument like that.

PWNT.

Originally posted by calvin44
PWNT.

SORGO QUOTED ME!!!!
I feel sooo cool. (really)

Since this was written just for me:

Originally posted by zephiel7
Before KOTOR friend. He learned them before KOTOR,


Proof ? In KotoR Revan was how old ? In his 30s at max. So he has learned more than Mace Windu, a lightsaber prodigy in his 50s, when he was in his mid-late 20s especially when Jedi in his time weren't trained from childhood on ? Allright. Any proof for this ? No ? Thanks.



May I tell you that you're a bad excuse for a debater ? Kreia told us that Tulak created his own unique form and stored the knowledge about that form in his holocron. Nothing more, nothing less. So all that Revan could have learned from Hord's holocron would be Hord's form.

And for the "best duellist" stuff. Notice how Kreia said the best Ancient Sith Lord with a lightsaber. This makes him virtually compareable to nobody since all other known Ancient Sith Lords used Sith Swords and not lightsabers. And since he makes "all people from our time" look like "children fighting each other with toys" - and you seem to thrust all of Kreia's statements - this suggests that the "all" includes herself, Revan and the Exile but not Exar Kun.



Notice how the force forms are no part of KotoR I. Then just think about the fact that Revan appears to be a Jedi Guardian where Kreia seems to be a Jedi Consular meaning she's the greater force user but the weaker duellist. You can't simply have it all.



Again you're just throwing BS into the thread. Revan defeating an army of dark Jedi is not canon. And Kreia's statement makes it clear: The Jedi he would slay. Notice how this is said by Kreia who hasn't seen Revan for a long time (at least not from the devastation of Malachor V in the end of the Mandalorian Wars on) and how she says "Jedi" where "Dark Jedi" would be called "Sith" in this case. So she's referring to the Jedi Civil war and not to the things Revan did during KotoR.



And it's nice that nobody else has noticed the Rakatan stating something like that - maybe because they can't know how much time Revan did spent searching for the Star Forge maps because he lied to them the entire time.

Next time you play KotoR you better pay more attention to the cutscenes. When we see Revan and Malak on Dantooine he's already wearing his face mask which means that it is beyond the Mandalorian Wars and he has used the Star Forge from the start of the Jedi Civil War on meaning he found the maps in less than a year.



Notice how Ajunta Pall can't remember anything and surely not Revan because Revan was wearing a face mask during his entire search for the Star Maps. Also notice how Revan didn't remove anything from the tombs which he would surely have done if he did visit them before.



Notice how Kun developed Sith alchemy and Sith magic skills that are beyond everything Revan has shown (freezing the entire Senate, creating an amulet similar to the one Sadow had created), created his own lightsaber form and designed his own - unique - weapon. Notice how he let his Massasi built temples able to focus force powers and notice how he used a ritual to seperate his spirit from is body to "run rampant throughout the cosmos" (only was stopped by the entire Jedi Order). Can you please remind me where Revan has shown greater "application" of knowledge ?



Before the Mandalorian Wars ? It's nice how Revan used assasination droids before he was even a Jedi Knight...
Apart from this the sources just say that he "might have used" HK-47 to "assasinate political leaders of star systems to create trouble". So there is no evidence for HK-47 killing Jedi. And even if he did: The Massassi in the comics faces a Jedi with a lightsaber with bare hands and wins the fight. If HK-47 can reproduce that I would be impressed.



Refer again to previous answer on the quote from Kreia and see how wrong you are.



A nice try to rival Lightsnake for the "Fanboy of the Month" title. A few more posts like this and you may beat him. And "old Exar" ? You didn't notice that Kun would be younger / same age compared to Revan ?

"May I tell you that you're a bad excuse for a debater ?"

Ad Hominem friend? I don't know whether you mean that or not. I wonder who's the bad excuse for a debater...


Read my above post friend, for your answers.

Originally posted by zephiel7
First of all, to all posters I do have evidence, if you accuse me of being a Revan fanboy, than I can just as easily conclude that you are all Exar fanboys since you choose not to look at my evidence declaring Revan at least the formers equal.

First of all, to you: Learn to destinquish between "evidence" and "your personal opinion" and "assumptions".



Again...just for you. Kreia states the holocron contains Tulak Hord's personal lightsaber form. Where did you hear "all known forms" or "Sith Sword fighting styles" ?



No. It's plausible to conclude that he became the best lightsaber duellist with the possible exceptions: Tulak Hord himself, Exar Kun, Ulic Quel-Droma (virtually all people that lived between the end of the Great Hyperspace War and the rise of Revan).



And again: Since Tulak Hord never stored knowledge about all forms in his holocron....how can Revan than archieve the knowledge through that holocron ? And how would a Sith (Hord) have knowledge about lightsaber styles that the Jedi invented after the Dark Jedi went to the Sith Empire ?



The only thing that is obvious is that Exar had produced force feats far beyond Revan and this is no "just lightsaber battle" in which Kun still would fight with a unique weapon and a unique style.



Where did she compare Revan to Kun ?



Read my last post and I totally pwned your rediculous idea that Revan searched YEARS for the star maps. And go read the TOTJ comics and after that tell me that Revan > Exar.



Evidence you haven't offered ? Great. Lies ? Great.



Where was the proof for this again ? It seems so that he hasn't visited Ajunta's tomb before because Revan possibly won't leave Ajunta's sword there. And Ajunta pall "approaching" Revan is nothing compared to Ragnos "the most powerful of the most powerful" and unquestioned leader in the golden age of the ancient Sith Empire telling Kun that he will bring a new Golden Age of the Sith and personally declare him the Dark Lord.



Dodging points seems to be fun: The massassi level the Jedi with bare hands and was fighting against a lightsaber opponent. HK-47 assassinated people (and you have no proof that he killed ONE SINGLE JEDI) using weapons. And somehow HK-47 is more impressive ? WTF ?



Read my last post, activate your brain, post again...



READ MY LAST POST AND SCREW THAT POINT. She wasn't talking about the Dark Jedi on the Star Forge but the Jedi during the Jedi Civil war. All "Dark Jedi" belonged to the Sith and therefore she would call them Sith and not "Jedi".



Canon Jedi death count for HK-47: ZERO, NULL, NIENTE, NADA. Null is higher than what ? -1 ? OK. The Massassi therefore created a living Jedi which is greater than everything HK-47 is able to do.



And you have been FUBARed, if you even know what that means.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I believe you have been PWNT as one of the posters said.

Oh yea, QED, if you even know what that means
We where referring to you being PWNT by illustrious.

Ok... these two are both pretty good... so I'm just going to flip a coin... heads its kun, tails its revan... *flips coin* ok heads... Kun...

Yes, please please accuse us of being fanboys when we are providing canonical narration (not speech), on panel sources (a la the comics) and actual facts, instead of assumptions.

Please do it, then we can just discard your credibility altogether.



Dude. Do you know what burden of proof means? You have to prove a positive, it's logical fallacy asking for us to prove a negative.

Nowhere does it state Tulak Hord even used a Sith Sword. The only thing we know about him is that he used a "lightsaber" and was supposedly "the best" of the "ancient Sith" with it when all the ancient Sith used sith swords, which are NOT lightsabers. Got that through your skull? Thanks.



The "natural talent" you failed to prove was superior to Kun's?

And yes, it may help, but it's not conclusive. Not everyone who learns from a holocron of a "powerful" (according to Kreia) master doesn't become a powerful individual themselves. You have to prove and establish he has, not assume he has. Got it?



Is that why Traya says "lightsaber," not "sword"?

You're just dodging the question because you have no answer. When do we even know that Tulak Hord was a damn "big sith man"? We have one line from one person about him. Tulak Hord could have been a 4 foot tall woman for all we know.



No it doesn't. How does being the best in lightsaber dueling = knowing all seven forms? False conclusion, logical fallacy.

Dooku was arguably the best lightsaber dueler, he mastered one form to our knowledge: Makashi. Tulak invented a form, it was not stated that he knew all seven. All your sighing and acting aloof won't win you that debate.



"The greatest lightsaber duelist of all time"? I would like to see this argument, not unfounded hypotheticals such as "well he learned from Tulak" (how does that make him superior to Tulak again?) or that "he mastered all seven forms" (when was this mentioned).

Guess what, it's not mentioned. So stop talking out your arse.



And never did she say Revan was stronger than Kun, now did she? Where's this proof again? Oh wait, more talking out your ass.



Again, Kreia is a Jedi Consular, where was it established Revan had superior force powers? Uhm... nowhere?



You're the one fantacizing about Revan instead of playing the game. The dynamics never mentioned it took 5 years of solely searching for the star map and doing nothing else. Stop using your gameplay experience as fact.



I said prove.

Going "zOMG Revan built HK-47" is not proving he's smarter than Exar Kun. READ HOW WE DEBUNKD THAT WORTHLESS ARGUMENT.



You mean the confused spirit without his memories? He taught him anything? And no, Ajunta Pall never even gave Revan a taste of his power unless he tries to jack his sword.



Then you failed to counter the argument. Kun was practically baptized by Ragnos himself, "the most powerful of the most powerful." He learned and encounted the teachings of various other sith whose powers made those of Revan's time look like "children" (according to Kreia herself).

Either you contradicted yourself, or you admitted that you have no counter for the argument besides fanboyism. Good job.



Nowhere is it shown how many Jedi HK-47 assassinated, or how he did it. Considering HK-47 is an assassin droid, I don't put its battle prowess anywhere near a single Massassi leveling a pissed off Jedi. Especially since Kun had an army of massassi that he used sith alchemy on.



Did I say Revan was female?

Oh wait no, I was making a facetious remark about the model, aka the sprite, got it?

Where was I clearly biased. I ask for you to prove up, you can't. That's not being biased, that's asking for facts, which you fail to give besides assumptions.



Again, lack of evidence that he is even comparable to Tulak Hord. Question: does everyone who learns from a master end up becoming superior to the master?

Also, how do you explain how none of the known Ancient Sith used lightsabers at all? Oh wait, you can't. You just dodge the point.



What points? The ones that IKC shot down or the ones that about 3 or 4 people shot down? You have nothing, post a logically coherent and factually backed argument or don't bother.



It was never mentioned what force forms he knew before KotOR. I suggest you actually play the game.



That's bullshit. Revan participated in the Jedi civil war, he slew Malak, he beat Mandalore, Echani, got Pall's sword, Tulak's Holocron, and killed the Tarentaks. That's the only confirmation we have on Revan. Read, only non-gameplay canon confirmation. Do you need to the damn canon policy to get that through your head?



First off, chronolgy can not create canon. Secondly, I have the chronology, give me the page numbers. The only place I recall that post showing up is Wikipedia, which anyone can edit.



And there's nothing to suggest he mastered more than Kun. Kun accomplished more in building his own sith artifacts, creating his own lightsaber style that no one ever figured out, killing the de facto master of the entire Jedi order in combat, having numerous Jedi assassinated, instakilling another Jedi with a wave of his hand, bringing down a ship with another wave of his hand, and building numerous temples with his army of massassi. Revan compares how?



Too bad your word without evidence is about as meaningful as an informercial with Mr. Rogers. Prove up. Is that too deep for you? Do you know what "proof" means?

You haven't established a thing. Everything you've said has been shot down. Hell, even Calvin, who hasn't posted a single argument, can see how badly you've been absolutely destroyed. Keep thinking you've won, naivete is great!

okay, this really long post/bashing is getting anoying... any perticular reason you started doing it?

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
okay, this really long post/bashing is getting anoying... any perticular reason you started doing it?

If this thing called "debating" is over your head, try another forum. As for the bashing, I see a lot of zephiel claiming he wins, and then getting absolutely demolished because he can't prove his points.

dude you don't need to bite my head off... jesus... you need to calm down... it's just a debate about fictional characters... and I have only just now noticed all those quotes and counter-quotes in one post so I just wanted to know, ok?

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
dude you don't need to bite my head off... jesus... you need to calm down... it's just a debate about fictional characters... and I have only just now noticed all those quotes and counter-quotes in one post so I just wanted to know, ok?


So what gives you the right to tell people what they should be doing? If you're not here to debate or make some sort of point that is relevant to the topic of this thread, a good suggestion for you should be to leave this thread.

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
dude you don't need to bite my head off... jesus... you need to calm down... it's just a debate about fictional characters... and I have only just now noticed all those quotes and counter-quotes in one post so I just wanted to know, ok?

I love how you ask me to chill, it's predictable. Who says I'm not chill? That was quick, fun, and an easy stress and boredom relief. Read the posts or don't bother to comment in a thread. If you want people to take you seriously, you should bother to extend the courtesy of reading what they write.

uhu... and the fact that they write freaken novels trying to prove 2+2=4 means what?

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
uhu... and the fact that they write freaken novels trying to prove 2+2=4 means what?

What.... the.... F*ck.

you guys don't need to go and totaly burn someone... as long as you know your right you don't need to push it...

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
okay, this really long post/bashing is getting anoying... any perticular reason you started doing it?
Blame zephiel17, if he would have admitted he was wrong the first time, there would be no need.

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
you guys don't need to go and totaly burn someone... as long as you know your right you don't need to push it...


Stop telling us what to do! We do what we please.


Do you honestly think you can stop that?


I don't owe you an explanation for my actions, so I refuse to give you one.


Now begone!

lol... senile fool... bet he's a noob...

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
lol... senile fool... bet he's a noob...

Whoa...

Did you call me a senile fool?

no... that other guy you mentioned...

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
no... that other guy you mentioned...
He was talking about you.

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
no... that other guy you mentioned...

Don't play around. I'm sure you know his username.

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
no... that other guy you mentioned...

First off, stfu. You are being a disrespecting noob.

Second, Revan fanboy... zephry or whatever your name is... You really need to get it through your head that you have no argument. I mean, you're arguing Kreia like she's a completely objective source. While she might be right, she might also be wrong, misinformed, or even leaving out significant details. I mean, if you really want to go quote crazy, Kelborn the Mandalorian says that Freedan Nadd was crazy with power, and made Malak and Revan look like nothing in comparison. So:

Freedan Nadd > Revan > Malak

And then you consider that Exar Kun WTFpwned Freedan Nadd with minimal effort and you have Exar Kun > Freedan Nadd > Revan > Malak.

So yeah, Kun pwned Revan, end of debate. See? I can use vague quotes too!

I e4t pr4wnz f0r br34kfuzt!11

but they aren't vague when they come from you Janus.

Yeah. When I say quotes they get an automatic +6 to Credibility, and the pin-on insult has an extra + 4 Burn.

Zee pwnage!

yep.

Originally posted by calvin44
but they aren't vague when they come from you Janus.

You do NOT question Janus' authority!

That was directed at Magnevus, right?

Originally posted by Jawa Lord
You do NOT question Janus' authority!

That's kickass how you made that font.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
That's kickass how you made that font.


It's my new typing Font.

I like it.

Yeah, more colorful font?

How did you get that Sorgo?


And zephiel or whatever, also if you want to go into quotes, at the end of the game Kreia says that the Exile is the best and strongest student she has ever taught, since this includes Revan, Exile > Revan.
Never mind that this makes no sense and is probably not true.

See how easily your quotes can get turned against you?

Originally posted by Darth Magnevus
okay, this really long post/bashing is getting anoying... any perticular reason you started doing it?

Any reason why you would ask that? Don't like, leave. No one is making you read it.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
How did you get that Sorgo?


And zephiel or whatever, also if you want to go into quotes, at the end of the game Kreia says that the Exile is the best and strongest student she has ever taught, since this includes Revan, Exile > Revan.
Never mind that this makes no sense and is probably not true.

See how easily your quotes can get turned against you?

Replace the words COLOR with GLOW.

Or put them together.

What?

Sorry can you go over that again, I didn't get it

glow words

Edit: Sweet, it works. LD, when you preview your post, press the color button and type what you want. 'COLOR' will be in the ''. Replace it with with .

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
What?

Sorry can you go over that again, I didn't get it

When you post, there is a color bar, correct?

It will tell you to type in a word to make it colorful.

then you just replace where it says COLOR with GLOW.



Like this! Yay!

Alright thanks

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Alright thanks


Or you could blend both together to make it look like this.

basically it's color="your color here"] and glow="your color here"].

Originally posted by Illustrious
basically it's color="your color here"] and glow="your color here"].

zOMG it's the hopping bunneh!

Since people really need the proof shoved down their throats ...

Revan learned from Tulak Hord's holocron, and hence directly learned from the teachings of the best duelist. You have to provide the proof that Tulak wasn't the best duelist, because my source is straight from Kreia.

Kreia mentioned, if you have high enough influence with her, that Revan was her superior in force mastery. I wish I could give you a direct quote, but since it's in game its kind of hard, and I am not the type of person who memorizes video game lines.

He learned secrets from
Korriban
Malachor 5
tombs of the sith lords proof --> Adjunta Pall recognizing Revan

Accomplishments
single handedly defeated all the dark jedi in the Star Forge and all the star forge droids.
Defeated Mandalore and Yusanis without his lightsabre or force powers
Dueled and won against Malak (who was empowered with the force essence of several Jedi in conjuction with darkside energies of the Star Forge)
Won the Mandalorian wars
Was a genius at engineering--> created HK

These facts alone account for how Revan is Exar's equal at the very least.

By the end of Kotor, Revan was searching for the ancient Sith empire in hopes of defeating it and ensuring the safety of the galaxy. We assume that he succeeded since the galaxy wasn't royally f***** after the events of KOTOR/KOTOR2. It's undeniable the amount of skill he picked up with his sabre, and the amount of knowledge he amassed was considerably higher than what Exar has gained. At this point it is really obvious that Revan is old Exar's superior.

Done and Done. I shake the dust off from under my feet.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Since people really need the proof shoved down their throats ... ]

Actually, it seems that you need to be the one that needs proof shoved down your throat

Revan learned from Tulak Hord's holocron, and hence directly learned from the teachings of the best duelist. You have to provide the proof that Tulak wasn't the best duelist, because my source is straight from Kreia.

No no no, you need to be the one to prove that he did learn everything from Tulaks holocron. You also need to prove that Tulak put all his knowledge into the holocron.

Also, even if he was the best, learning from the best does not make you the best or better than them. If it was then Younglings that learned from Yoda > Yoda, or Anakin > Obi-Wan.

Kreia mentioned, if you have high enough influence with her, that Revan was her superior in force mastery. I wish I could give you a direct quote, but since it's in game its kind of hard, and I am not the type of person who memorizes video game lines.

Thats nice, but unless you have proof it is usless, put up or shut up.

He learned secrets from
Korriban
Malachor 5
tombs of the sith lords proof --> Adjunta Pall recognizing Revan

About Korriban, I remind you that Exar was there first and would have taken things. Thus, Revan did not have all that was on Korriban because *gasp* Exar took some of it

About Malachor V, I thought you were just argueing that he spent 5 years searching for the Star Forge, when did he have time to study? You just pwned your own arguement. Also, he could not have learned everything from Malachor, to assume such is illogical and foolish.

For the tombs you use Ajunta for proof? Wow, that guy cannot even remember his own name, but he can teach Revan things and remember Revan. That is a bit of a stretch. Also, if Revan learned lots from Korriban and the tombs, then he was an idiot for not taking Naga Sadows poison blade, Ajunta Pall's blade, the scrolls etc.

Accomplishments
single handedly defeated all the dark jedi in the Star Forge and all the star forge droids.

That is complete hyperbole and I remember taking two other people with me on the Star Forge. Plus, you cannot argue gameplay as canon. If you can then I can argue that Revan never beat Malak, because in one of my games, he might not have.

Defeated Mandalore and Yusanis without his lightsabre or force powers

Proof? I never remember hearing anything about how he defeating Mandalore and Yusanis. all we hear is that he defeated them. For all we know it could have been by sending in a dozen sith before hand to weaken them, then Revan walks in and shoots them with a blaster. We know nothing about how he defeated them so do not say that you do

Dueled and won against Malak (who was empowered with the force essence of several Jedi in conjuction with darkside energies of the Star Forge)

Yup I will give you that, but is Malak > Exar? No of course not, so it does not really apply

Won the Mandalorian wars

Really, Revan did the entire thing himself? No, he had an army behind him, and again you have no proof he actually did any hand to hand fighting save for Mandalore himself. My impression is that he was a tactician, and that would not help in a duel

Was a genius at engineering--> created HK

How exactly does this apply to a fight? Unless Exar is going to sit down and take a nap, allowing Revan to build HK and give HK time to shoot Exar, this does not apply.

These facts alone account for how Revan is Exar's equal at the very least.

As you can read above, no they do not

By the end of Kotor, Revan was searching for the ancient Sith empire in hopes of defeating it and ensuring the safety of the galaxy. We assume that he succeeded since the galaxy wasn't royally f***** after the events of KOTOR/KOTOR2. It's undeniable the amount of skill he picked up with his sabre, and the amount of knowledge he amassed was considerably higher than what Exar has gained. At this point it is really obvious that Revan is old Exar's superior.

In my game we never hear what Revan was searching for, just that he remembered a threat. About the galaxy being screwed over, well since KotOR III has not come out yet, you cannot assume this.

About lightsaber skill, read above, as for knowledge, also read above and the other posts

Done and Done. I shake the dust off from under my feet.

Nope not done since you have proved nothing.

QED

Asking the opposition to prove a negative is a logical fallacy. I'll leave it to Illustrious to handle the rest of your nonsense.

Oh yes I forget that little detail as well

Since people really need the proof shoved down their throats ...

You need your hands cut off so I don't have to read your bullshit fanboyism any longer.

Revan learned from Tulak Hord's holocron, and hence directly learned from the teachings of the best duelist. You have to provide the proof that Tulak wasn't the best duelist, because my source is straight from Kreia.

No he didn't! First of all, In KOTOR, he never EVER recieves a Holocron from his tomb. Second of all, Kreia says WHOEVER HAS THE HOLOCRON IS MOST LIKELY DEAD AND THAT THE PERSON WHOM BEARS IT IS UNKNOWN!

You're a dirty liar.


Kreia is not a reliable source and asking me to prove a negative is.... LOGICAL FALLACY!

Okay. I say Kit Fisto is the best duelist. Does that mean it's true or that it is proof? Why hell no!

Kreia mentioned, if you have high enough influence with her, that Revan was her superior in force mastery. I wish I could give you a direct quote, but since it's in game its kind of hard, and I am not the type of person who memorizes video game lines.

So Kreia said: If you have high influence with me, I shall tell you Revan was powerful in the force.
Exile: But you just told m....
Kreia: NAY! I am all knowing Kreia and my say is Canon say! HUZZAH!

If you can't show it, If you can't remember it, IF NONE OF US HAVE SEEN IT...


It's fallible, Non Canon and is most likely unexistant.

He learned secrets from
Korriban
Malachor 5
tombs of the sith lords proof --> Adjunta Pall recognizing Revan

Every Sith lord does their research and Revan isn't the only one to have learned secrets.

Ajunta Pall WANTED TO BE FREED! He would have asked anybody!

Accomplishments
single handedly defeated all the dark jedi in the Star Forge and all the star forge droids.

Had help from party. Provide proof he killed them all. Hell, provide proof he killed more than five. Is it Canon that he murdered all of them? Didn't think so.

Defeated Mandalore and Yusanis without his lightsabre or force powers

It is unknown how he defeated them. He could have had help, like he did with almost everything else in KOTOR.

Dueled and won against Malak (who was empowered with the force essence of several Jedi in conjuction with darkside energies of the Star Forge)

In my game, Revan sucks the power out of the Republic soldiers as well.


Won the Mandalorian wars

Like he is the first Sith Lord to win a war... F*ck....


Was a genius at engineering--> created HK

Good for him! Anakin was a kid when he built a droid fluent in over a Million different languages.


It's also irrelevant to this arguement.

These facts alone account for how Revan is Exar's equal at the very least.

Facts? I haven't seen any yet/

By the end of Kotor, Revan was searching for the ancient Sith empire in hopes of defeating it and ensuring the safety of the galaxy. We assume that he succeeded since the galaxy wasn't royally f***** after the events of KOTOR/KOTOR2. It's undeniable the amount of skill he picked up with his sabre, and the amount of knowledge he amassed was considerably higher than what Exar has gained. At this point it is really obvious that Revan is old Exar's superior.

For all you know, he walked around Force storming everyones ass! You have no proof that he can take Exar in a Lightsaber duel AT ALL!

Done and Done. I shake the dust off from under my feet.

Good. Next step would be for you to shake that Fanboy crap out of your arrogant head.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Since people really need the proof shoved down their throats ...


I think you need some intelligence shoved in between your ears...meh...



You have no proof for this. It's pure game content IF you find the holocron or not. I've gone through KotoR 4 or 5 times and I got it once. And mention how Kreia says that "the holocron is lost" and not "Revan took it away".



Since you can't proof that Revan even got Tulak Hords holocron, you can't simply assume that he learned from it and call that proof. And the "best duellist" ? Kreia calls him "the best lightsaber duellist among the ancient Sith Lords who would make people from our time look like children fighting each other with toys].

That means that Tulak is better with lightsabers than any other ancient Sith with is laughable because he's the only ancient Sith ever stated to have used that weapon and he's better than the people in Kreia's time. This would include Revan but not Exar and this statement doesn't include the Jedi before Kreia's time. So "best duellist" is clearly hyperbole.



He's only the best lightsaber fighter among the Ancient Sith - so among people who didn't use lightsabers. Can Marka Ragnos - the "Dark Lord of the Dark Lords", the "most powerful among godlike beings" wielding "a Sith Sword that is more powerful than a lightsaber" can take Tulak down ? Most likely.



We have already seen that you aren't the type of person to remember lines from video games. Then maybe you are wrong with all your comments here because they are based on video game lines. Nice work destroying the base for your entire argument.

And if you still want to argue based on video game lines:
Freedom Nadd > Revan and Malak (as stated)
Exar Kun > Freedom Nadd
therefore Exar Kun > Revan



Korriban: Visited by Exar Kun 40 years before Revan and Exar took knowledge away. Visited by Freedom Nadd before and he also took knowledge away. So Revan clearly had access to less knowledge from Korriban than Exar Kun before.

Malachor V: Planet was devastated in the end of the Mandalorian Wars. So even if you want to assume that Revan discovered it at the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars you don't want to tell me that he learned everything from an "storehouse of Sith knowledge" in 3 years.

Tombs of the Sith Lords: Ajunta Pall can't remember Revan because Revan - if he had visited the tomb before - was wearing a face mask. Not to mention that Ajunta doesn't even know his own name. And also notice how all the Sith in the Valley tell you that "nobody entered the tombs before" or "nobody who did came out again". The only exception is Naga Sadow's tomb.

And notice how Exar had access to Korriban, the tombs of the ancient Sith Lords before Revan. Add Ossus, Freedom Nadd, Nadd's tomb, Yavin 4 (writings from Naga Sadow).



This is directly contradicted by game evidence. We know that he had 2 friends with him so saying that he did it "on his own" is laughable. Even if you take everything that "had to be done alone" he only defeated 6 droids (after he first confronted Malak on the SF), Bastilla and Malak.



This is laughable. We know that he defeated them but it's never stated how. It's ridiculous to assume he did it without his lightsaber or force powers. It's even mentioned by the Handmaiden that Revan has proven his "Jedi powers" (which would include lightsaber / force use) superior to the powers of the Echani by defeating Yusanis.

And for Mandalore: Ulic Quel-Droma has defeated Mandalore before and Ulic is inferior to Kun himself. So what ?



Now what ? First "several Jedi" ? If you run around and destroy the bodies after Malak drains the first he only takes the life energy from one other Jedi.



Will he install a Mass Shadow Generator on the planet where they fight and blow it up when Exar Kun enters it ? Will he start building another HK droid while fending of Exar ? Otherwise I don't see how that will help him in this fight.
And by the way: Exar Kun created a Sith amulet similar to Naga Sadows meaning it was able to "blast through walls" and "instakill persons". I wonder how HK 47 is more impressive...



These "facts" only show that Revan was possibly the most powerful person in his own time but he wasn't leagues above every other like Exar was who threw other force users arround like ragdolls, destroyed one of the best fighters in the Jedi Order (Vodo) effortless, killed another Jedi master with a hand movement and it took the combined power of all the Jedi to stop him - and even this failed partitially since he was still arround 4,000 years later...



This is just arguing possibilities as proof. Obviously Revan didn't destroy the Sith since they were around 4,000 years after his time. And as we don't know what he did - or if he did anything and IF he did something how he did it you can't simply assume that he did something the way you like him doing it. And Exar was declared Dark Lord of the Sith by the most powerful Sith Lord of the Ancient Sith Empire. I wonder how Revan can have done more impressive things involving the Ancient Sith - even when he took control over the remains of the Ancient Sith Empire after the events of KotoR.



The dust coming from your destroyed "arguments" and "proof" ? Nice...

He shouldn't be back...you both just pwnt him.

Hey, Kreia in game (teh uber sowrce) told me to kill General Vaklu. So, canonically, he must be dead.

See? I can do it too!

Nah he'll be back it is probably somewhere in the fanboy bible

1) Thou must always return and declare victory even though thy opponent has destroyed thy argument

Oh yeah. Amen.

Well also he never responded to my quote from Kreia stating that the Exile was the strongest person she had ever trained including Revan.

Thus, OMG teh Exile pwns du Revan WOOT!

Amen.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Well also he never responded to my quote from Kreia stating that the Exile was the strongest person she had ever trained including Revan.

Thus, OMG teh Exile pwns du Revan WOOT!

Oh yes. Apparently Kreia's opinions are only canon when they favor Revan.

LOL!